Woman's Hour - Music from Martha Wainwright, Australian campaigner Grace Tame. Dame Kate Bingham former chair of the Vaccine Task Force.

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

A live performance from Martha Wainwright who'll be talking to Emma Barnett about her first album in more than five years and going out on the road again.Ruth London from Fuel Poverty Action talks about the effect of energy price rises on women and children.And as Covid booster jabs are being offered across the UK this week and 12 to 15 year olds are receiving the vaccines at school we speak to Dame Kate Bingham She began the work when she who was appointed chair of the Vaccine Task Force at the beginning of the pandemic by Boris Johnson and reported directly to him. She's now returned to her day job as a venture capitalist investing in new drugs and talks talks to Emma about female leadership, the ethics of booster rollout and whether unvaccinated care-workers should be able to continue working. Plus we hear from Australian of the Year 2021, campaigner Grace Tame. A survivor of sexual abuse she fought to overturn the law in Tasmania which stopped people speaking out in their own name  even if their attacker had been found guilty. Her latest campaign is to change Australia’s consent and grooming laws. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell Photo credit; Gaelle Leroyer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. With booster jabs for the over 50s and vulnerable having just begun and schools vaccinating 12-year-olds, who better to have with me today than the woman who coordinated this country's vaccine rollout? Dame Kate Bingham is my first guest this morning, the former chair of the UK Vaccine Task Force.

And as Boris Johnson, currently stateside, getting ready for his first time in the Oval Office as Prime Minister for a meeting with President Biden, is defiant in his defence of the UK's booster vaccine programme, despite hundreds of millions of people worldwide not having a single dose, it's worth remembering that millions in this country also haven't had a single dose by choice. The latest high profile example being that of the Strictly Come Dancing professional dancers. A report out today in The Sun claims there are now three dancers who haven't been jabbed. But my question to you then is how has your relationship changed with colleagues, friends and family who have chosen not to get vaccinated at all? Now I've spoken to you before on this programme about how you convince those that you love in your life and care about to get jabbed. What strategies have worked? We exchanged tips we heard from a behavioural

psychologist on this matter. But moving away from trying to convince, which I have to say to summarize that conversation, is a very difficult thing to do. Almost nigh on impossible, it seems. What are you doing about those in your life who aren't getting jabbed? Whether you work with them, live with them, related to them, friendship groups. Are you still seeing them? Are you talking to them? Has it changed things? Do you respect their decision? Are you talking to them has it changed things do you respect their decision are you trying to just live with it are you scared about seeing them as we go

into the winter are you scared about them seeing older people in your life or vulnerable vulnerable people in your life text me at women's hour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate do check for those costs on social media it's b, it's BBC at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. As I say, my first guest today, Dame Kate Bingham, the former chair of the UK Vaccine Taskforce. I'll talk to her very shortly indeed, but also on today's programme, the 26-year-old woman making history and waves as the Australian of the year. We'll tell you all about a woman called Grace Tame. And love, heartbreak and live music from the singer-songwriter Martha Wainwright, who will be performing live in the actual studio, which is such a treat because we've had so few

guests allowed to come in because of the times that we are living in. So Martha Wainwright currently tuning up her voice. I heard it just before I walked into the studio to come and sing her latest song for us. But COVID booster jabs are now being offered across the UK. 12 to 15 year olds are now being vaccinated in schools. And it is the work that began with Dame Kate Bingham, appointed chair of the UK Vaccine Task Force at the beginning of the pandemic by Boris Johnson

and reported directly to him. Prior to this unpaid role, she worked for 30 years in the biotech industry, and she's now returned to work as a venture capitalist investing in new drugs. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thanks for being with us today. And I wanted to start by asking you a very similar question to that of our listeners, if I can. Do you know people who haven't been jabbed? I don't actually. Now, it may be that people are too scared to tell me, but actually everybody here that I work with have either taken part in clinical trials or have been jabbed. So actually, I don't know anybody that's not been jabbed. You don't know anyone in your personal life?

No, but again, they may not tell me. Yes, you're quite an unusual person to have that in your life if you haven't been jabbed. I think we're going to hear some very interesting stories about this, though, because it is becoming a fault line, not necessarily a political fault line, but it's awkward, to say the least, isn't it? Well, I think there are two reasons why people aren't jabbed. One is some people are medically excluded from receiving vaccinations. So they may be allergic or there may be issues, or they may simply be immunocompromised and don't have an immune system to stimulate with a vaccine. So I think those people absolutely need to be recognised because they are highly vulnerable and susceptible to infection, which may well be spread by people who could otherwise be vaccinated. And then the second group of people who are the vaccine hesitant, and then the sort of more extreme anti-vax. Anti-vax, I'm not sure you'll ever persuade them to be vaccinated, because I think their views are

much more widespread than just vaccines. But the vaccine hesitant, I completely understand. And I think what matters there is there is a very clear, transparent and factual description of what these vaccines are, how they work, what's in them, how they've been developed, and what are the risks. And actually, people's hesitancy is completely explicable to the extent they're just not well briefed or they don't understand from people that they trust what these vaccines do. So from my perspective, vaccine hesitancy, I think, can be addressed by getting community leaders and local people who are respected in the community, whether it's just, you know, if you look at some of the clinical trials, some of the best sort of recruiters were patient advocates.

So people had been in the trials who then persuaded people to then to join, especially for the therapeutic trials. Is it the case, what's your vaccination status? Because you, of course, were very early on in this. I joined the Novavax clinical trial and that trial is designed such that everybody actually had four doses. So two doses of placebo and two doses of vaccine. So I am vaccinated and the Novavax clinical data is excellent. It's just that the actual trial and approval has been delayed. So I'm treated as unvaccinated in terms of many countries around the world. But I know I am in fact vaccinated and I know I'm protected.

Well, yeah, because we've had a couple of messages saying, can you discuss those who took part in trials but are not registered? Which, you know, people might not realise you find yourself not recognised yet, even though you know you are jabbed. Is that annoying in terms of what you now need to go on holiday and visit different places for you? I think it is really, really deeply frustrating because those people who step forward for the benefit of everybody to actually take part in these clinical trials so that we could get clinical data and safety data early are now being disadvantaged. So, yes, I do think it's a problem. Have you asked the Prime Minister to expedite that well there are the the systems are such that certainly in england you can get a green tick in your uh nhs app that's not true uh in scotland um so where vaccine passports are being used there are clearly just discrepancies between how people are treated

um and it is not true that uh you can travel to many European countries because of the vaccine not being registered or recognised. So I do think it's an issue. And I worry about people's willingness in the future to step up into clinical trials because of the disadvantage. Because of your position, you are able to speak to those who have the ability to change that recognition. Are they going to do so? Have you spoken to anyone about it? I have, but actually I've been out of this now for nine months. I know, but you've still got everyone's number.

Well, I'm not sure I do, actually. There clearly are things happening. It's just not happening nearly quickly enough. I would like to see it happen much more quickly. Much more quickly. There you go. So it was interesting. We got that message seconded from somebody who found themselves in a similar position to you. I would like to say thank you to those people because it's unquestionable that those people who stepped forward and contributed made a massive difference for everybody, not just in the UK. This data will be used for registration around the world.

So even though we've all been disadvantaged, we've done the right thing. An important message. Just talking about the reports around three, potentially, of the Strictly Come Dancing professional dancers not being vaccinated, I should say, a Strictly spokesperson said, we don't comment on speculation of somebody's Covid vaccination status.

Strictly Come Dancing production has and will continue to follow strict government guidelines to ensure the safety of all on the show for those who are concerned. But on that news that potentially three are not vaccinated and of course they have to be in close contact with the person that they are dancing with. Do you think they should be forced to be jabbed in that circumstance? I think it's very hard to force things on people. It's not the best way to get people to actually agree to do things. I think whether it's vaccines or generally in life, you will end up with a much better outcome if people actually do things because they voluntarily want to do them rather than they're told to. Of course. I think it's slightly different with care home workers, because I think in those cases, those care home workers have chosen that

profession and they are working with elderly, vulnerable, frail people who are highly at risk. And in those cases, I feel much more strongly that, yes, I think vaccines should be mandated. I think for fit, healthy dancers, it's harder. But again, I think the dancing partners and the people around them should have a choice as to whether or not they would like to dance with somebody who's not been vaccinated. So you wouldn't say that the BBC or the production company that makes it should mandate it. you would say that they should be offering those people the chance not to be with those dancers? Exactly.

Thank you for giving us your take on that. In terms of, you've mentioned care homes, and obviously that's now being looked at about carers going into people's homes rather than just care homes, which is already mandated. The government is consulting on the NHS and whether all NHS staff should be mandated to be jabbed. Do you think it should go that wide? I think anybody working with vulnerable people should be vaccinated.

So I think if you are a back office worker and you're not interacting and patient facing, I think that it's different. But I think if you're working with people who are at risk and would potentially suffer severe disease or death should they get infected with COVID, then I don't think it's fair to have people working with them who are not vaccinated. What about the concern from those who run those various industries that they will now lose vital staff and also on the other side, people are going to lose their jobs. Well, people lose their jobs if they make a choice,

if they are patient facing. You could lose your jobs or you could cause potential severe illness and death. And I think that's a very hard personal judgment for someone to make. You're straight talking in the few minutes I've even had you on the programme. Did you want to do this job as head of the vaccine task force? I did not put my hand up for it, no. So it was a surprise when I got the text and then the call. Who sends a text like that?

Does Boris Johnson actually send the text? Yeah. But what happened is I actually joined it on april fool's day uh because patrick balance put together a expert advisory group and asked me to join that and again my reaction was to ask him why because i'm not a vaccine expert what i do is turn clever science into new drugs and he said what he really was looking for was the horizon scanning and seeing the new companies that were coming up with vaccines and have that you know insight into the industry so I was actually on that advisory group for a month and then I got a text and yes

the first text was from Matt Hancock and then the second text from the prime minister so that's exactly what happens and they say can you speak um and you take and you take the call and and very quickly I mean we should remember you know not normal times in terms of uh the emergency that was going on and it's still going on but it was uh all hands to the pump a lot is going to be said and has already been said about the adequacy of our response. But a lot was said about the way that you got the job, but not also that, not just that, excuse me, whether you were the right person for the job. You came under a barrage of criticism about not being an expert. You've just explained there as to why you were selected or one of the reasons why you were selected. Did you find that difficult to cope with?

A lot of it, I was looking back through the press, was at the back end of last year. Yes, of course I did. And the bizarre thing was that the press actually really was starting to have a field day after we had the data from the Pfizer vaccine. So the 9th of November last year was when we first saw that the Pfizer vaccine was over 90% effective, which was beyond our worldest dreams of efficacy. And so to continue to, and the UK was the first country to sign a deal with Pfizer. And we had a very material portion of the supply of that vaccine. So it seemed bizarre to me that I was getting all this stick for something where we'd actually selected what was turned out to be the first vaccine to get approved.

We were the first country, as you know, to start vaccinating anywhere in the West. And yet I was getting all this tick about, you know, chumocracy and everything. I mean, I'm corrupt, I'm inept, I'm self-enriching, I'm incompetent. I mean, there were very few allegations that weren't made about me from people that just did not look at the record and actually if you look at my record of 30 years doing this taking science developing into drugs to treat severe unmet diseases um not vaccines to be fair but but therapeutics uh obviously i i knew in terms of the uh the industry i either knew people personally or I was at best one step away from that. So it was a good job, actually.

I really enjoyed doing it and we had fun and I think we were effective. But yes, it was difficult having the press. What do you suspect was at the root of that? Was any of it to do with you being a woman? I actually don't think it was actually to be being a woman. I think it was unhelpful that I am extremely happily married to a Tory MP.

So I think a lot of it was political and a lot of it fed into the media narrative of the time of chumocracy and people being given contracts when they weren't uh the right people to be contracted with so and i think just to split out those things just for a moment because i'm certainly not going to not least on women's i define a woman by her husband but it is uh jesse norman that you're talking about there in case people are wondering but there are some separate issues there around how various contracts have been awarded. That wasn't about you. It was more about whether you were the right

person. Some of that you might want to comment on. But I was talking actually about whether you were the right person for the job and how you got the job. Yeah, so I mean, I'm totally comfortable, actually, in many ways, in hindsight, that I was the right person for the job, because actually, precisely interviews like this have forced me right person for the job, because actually, precisely interviews like this have forced me to go back and think, what was it that I brought and my skills that actually made the vaccine task force work? So remember, I was appointed in May. We had the first data in November, and we vaccinated beginning of December. So it was a little over seven months that we managed to go from start

to finish. And actually, I think that my venture capital background is exactly the right background for this. So the way we work with to develop new drugs is recognizing that lots of things are going to fail. So you have to build a portfolio and you have to build in that recognition that you are going to lose money and you are going to lose money and you're going to lose opportunities because they simply won't work. And that means the way we work is much more in partnership than adversarial, which again is very distinct, different from how government contracts are normally placed, which is much more typical, typically sort of arm's length procurement contracts. And what I was given the flexibility to be able to recruit my own expert team,

which we then embedded into government. So I could bring in people who were experts in clinical trial design, manufacturing, the vaccine discovery and development, the whole aspect of going from start to finish to get vaccines to people. And having that strong support from government actually was really important so that we had a very slick decision making process. I had a single investment committee made up of the secretaries of state for business, health, cabinet office and treasury. I didn't make any spending decisions, period. We would make recommendations and the ministers would make the spending decisions.

And it's exactly the way I work in venture capital. So in hindsight, I actually think a venture capitalist specialised in this area is a really good background for dealing with the pandemic. Well, I was going to say that there's a lot of discussion that has been had and will continue to be had about whether we are still skilled up, should this happen again, and what sorts of expertise we do need moving forward in government.

Perhaps we could talk at a different stage about that. But you say it wasn't linked to being a woman, but it is very striking that you feel that some of the criticism was linked to the fact about the fact that you were a wife of a Conservative MP. Yeah. So I think that's quite clear in one sense of being a very specific way of targeting. Yes. And I think that, I mean, if you just look at all the media reporting,

it always put my age in, which I found bizarre. And it would always say Kate Bingham, 55, wife of Tory MP. And I think that is definitely not a good way to treat people, especially somebody who's come in from the private sector to put a career on hold to actually come in and help people. But you don't think it's sexist? I think it's more politically driven than sexism, but I do think it's sexist to be described by your husband, but my husband has been phenomenal. And, you know, his support for women and diversity is actually one of the reasons this has worked so well. Well, I was going to say, sorry, he is in the news in the last few days because apparently he stood down from his role in the Treasury to make way for greater diversity and women in the latest reshuffle.

So I don't know. Was that your influence the other way around, I should ask? No, Jess has very strongly held views about diversity and supporting all those who actually can make a contribution. So for those of you who know him, it comes as no surprise that that is the way he behaves because he's highly principled and ethical and effective. Now, there are not many people that have a track record like he's got. This isn't his interview. So just let me get back to you, if I may, very, very briefly on something that we did mention right at the top.

Do you feel comfortable with the booster programme? Because, of course, the world is looking, you know, we're not, you know, we're all not safe till all of us are jabbed. One part of that message, Boris Johnson has defiantly defended that decision today, despite millions of people around the world not having even a first jab. Do you think it's the right move? So I feel I'm very mixed on it, actually. The JCVI, which has made the recommendation to boost groups one through nine, which were the original vulnerable cohort, which is all adults over 50 plus adults with severe underlying disease, are definitely those who are most vulnerable. And the JCVI has absolutely called it correctly every single step along the way. And they are experts and I think they've done a great job. So I'm certainly supportive that those who are vulnerable should

be boosted because there's no doubt that we do see a decline in vaccine efficacy over time, especially for the mRNA vaccines. But I do think the stats are very worrying. I mean, we've got in low income countries, less than 1% of people have actually been vaccinated. 80% of vaccines have been administered in high and upper middle income countries. And California, if you take that as an example, has 3% of the population of Africa, and yet nearly the same number of vaccines have been administered. So it is the longer the virus, it is a massive stat. And the longer the virus circulates unchecked in these countries, the more the likelihood is that we will see an escape variant because viruses do mutate. They're not good at replicating accurately.

And so the more they replicate a lot, the more risk we have. Now, at the moment, the vaccines are working and that is amazing and wonderful. But I do worry that we we are not getting vaccines to low and middle income countries quickly enough. alone could be wasting nearly 250 million doses, which will expire based on the shelf life if they don't distribute even after boosters. So I do think there's a serious political choice to make as to how do we get these doses. This will be on the table, of course, with those meetings ongoing stateside. Dame Kate Bingham, I'm reliably told you relax by bog snorkelling. I wish we could go into that a little bit. I've run out of time. Thank you very much for joining us this morning.

Thank you. A message here about vaccinations and friendships and colleagues. As a couple, my husband and I feel a little lonely as some of our best friends are anti-vaxxers. It feels futile to try and convince others who hold such strong views and we value lifelong friendships. But it's getting harder and harder to discuss the world

when up against those who believe conspiracies. We're shocked and a little depressed that such good friends would be this reckless. I'll come back to those messages shortly. Now, Grace Tame might not be a name you know or many of us know in this country, but down under the picture is different as this year she was named Australian of the Year.

Grace was 15 when she was repeatedly sexually abused by a 58-year-old schoolteacher. That man was eventually put in prison. But fast forward a decade in 2019, Grace was at the time, sexual assault survivors in Tasmania were prohibited from speaking out under their own name, even if their attacker had been found guilty. The law was changed last year, thanks to her and the campaign. I spoke to Grace earlier this morning. Yeah, so there was a specific piece of legislation here in Tasmania, which is the state of Australia, it's one of eight states, and that specific piece of legislation made it illegal for survivors of child sexual abuse to self-identify and share their stories publicly under their own name in the media, even after they turned 18 and gave their consent to do so in the interest of,

or sorry, in public interest, you know, for the purposes of education and progress. And wanting to perhaps as well for themselves own their story and talk out. Yeah, to take some power back, I suppose, because, you know, abuse and in particular child sexual abuse is characterized by a complete loss of power and autonomy at the hands of, you know, a pedophile or a perpetrator. And why was this so important for you? So I was driven by, you know, this burning need to share my experience of grooming to help shed some light on it and to educate the public um you know and to to to end the silence um you know because evil thrives in silence it's a weapon of evil and in terms of what happened to you as a

child it was with regards to to what your teacher did to you and how he groomed you. Yeah. So I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse, actually. I was first abused as a six-year-old by an older child who asked me to go into a closet and undress before molesting me. Now, when I was 15, I had moved from a public co-ed primary school to an all-girls high school, and I was battling anorexia. And one of the things that underpinned my anorexia was my experience of abuse as a six-year-old.

And I shared that experience of abuse with one of my teachers who was, you know, positioning himself as somebody who had an interest in helping me, who cared for me. He had a duty of care. And little did I know that he was a serial pedophile and he actually had other victims before me. He was there from 1992 until I reported him in 2011. So when I shared this experience of being molested as a six-year-old in a closet, little did I know I explicit content, you know, films, books that glorified relationships between characters with significant age differences. the physical sexual abuse of me by locking me in a closet and recreating my experience of molestation as a six-year-old to scare me into submission. And this continued, this abuse of you, for some time?

Yes, yes. Each time he saw me after that, he would add another unforeseeable element. You know, he used failed threats like, you know, I'd lose my job if anyone hears about this and you wouldn't want that, would you? I mean, this is a man who was twice my size and almost four times my age. And, yeah, he eventually, the first time he tried to rape me, he actually didn't succeed in penetrating me. So he ended up dropping me off on the side of the road. he actually didn't succeed in penetrating me, so he ended up dropping me off on the side of the road. But he did eventually succeed in raping me,

and then that became the norm. He would rape me before school, after school, on weekends. And, yeah, the abuse went on for months. It ended when the school year ended at the end of 2010, just before we broke for the summer holidays. But he continued to stalk me well into the next year, into 2011. You know, he was, he was turning up to my work on weekends. He was, you know, sitting outside my house at night in his car. He learned my timetable. So, you know, even though he wasn't actually one of my teachers in year 11,

I would, you know, sometimes be overwhelmed with this feeling like someone was watching me in class and I would look over my shoulder and he'd be standing in the classroom doorway just staring me down. And so I eventually, you know, I eventually reached this sort of turning point where my crippling fear of this man was surpassed by anger. And also, you know, I had this knowledge in the back of my mind that he had abused other girls because he used to boast to me about other girls that he'd abused.

And I thought, you know, my silence and inaction in this case could potentially be, you know, a factor in somebody else's abuse and I couldn't live with myself with that. So I disclosed to another, interestingly, to another male teacher a factor in somebody else's abuse and I couldn't live with myself with that. So I disclosed to another, interestingly, to another male teacher, a brilliant man by the name of William Simon, who is a proud gay man with a demonstrative value of people over policy and a healthy disrespect to the status quo.

I took a gamble and I thought if anyone would understand, you know, it's someone who's probably been, you know, had an experience of being marginalised and ostracised himself. And so I did. I told him and he did not pass the buck. He did not minimise or, you know, attempt to reduce my pain in any way. In fact, he took the next step towards justice with me and he went with me to the school principal and I then told the school principal and then I told the police.

And that led to him going to prison? Yes, yes. He was found, the police found him with 28 multimedia files of child abuse material on his computer, including a trophy file of some of the other students who were topless, who had to be identified by another member of staff. But he was charged, interestingly, he was charged

with maintaining a sexual relationship with a person under the age of 17. Now, that same exact charge in other jurisdictions around Australia was the persistent sexual abuse of a child. And if you doubt what impact language has on perception, the first front page headline that came out in our local paper in Tasmania because of the wording of that charge, the first front page headline that came out was teacher admits to affair with student. Now, I read that and my family read that.

I was 16 when I read that. In fact, I read a glorified description of the exact moment that pedophile had recreated my childhood trauma by locking me in a closet for his own gain. It's an extraordinary story in the truest sense of the word. And I think the words that you talk about being important to people, so many people listening to this will be able to understand that and some of them will be able to empathise. But a lot of people, if they'd gone through anything remotely like that, may think, I don't want to be anything to do with this in the future.

I don't want this to be who I am. And perhaps I don't want my name out there because I want to try and move on and do something completely different. You have been named Australian of the Year. You have completely done the opposite. You've built your campaigning work around your experience to try and help others. But I wanted to know from a personal point of view, why did you want your name to be out there? Well, it wasn't that wasn't part of my decision. It wasn't that I wanted my name to be out there at all. It's just that I knew that there had to be work done. I knew that I knew that it was just that's that's that's been my, know um guiding force if you will that my

motivation the whole whole way through is just this want to help and educate and protect others and and i will do whatever it takes to to to achieve progress for the greater good you know and if that means putting myself on the line and being out there in the in the public sphere where you know people still you know it's interesting you would putting myself on the line and being out there in the public sphere where, you know, people still, you know, it's interesting, you would think that the issue of child sexual abuse is a pretty, you know, no-brainer, absolute wrong, but there are still obviously, you know,

there are pedophiles out there, there are rape apologists out there and I cop a lot of hatred. It's certainly in the minority in terms of the responses, but I do. And if that's what needs to happen, then that's all part and parcel. This is much bigger than me and it's much bigger than any individual. Did it feel, how did it feel to win or be honoured as Australian

of the Year for 2021? Oh, look, you know, it was very surreal. You know, I'm just a representative of a community of child sexual abuse survivors, which is a community that has been stigmatised and marginalised for such a long time. And so to be there as a representative honored in that way you know as child sexual abuse survivor has never been honored in that way before um to be that person was one of the greatest privileges and honors um of my very short life. How old are you now, Grace? I'm 26. You know, and it was one of the most, honestly, one of the most beautiful things I have ever witnessed in my life to be standing there in a room full of, you know, some of the most accomplished, outstanding Australians from all walks of life, you know um from all sides of politics you

know we've got all different ages um and every single person after I made my speech you know I was looking out into the audience every single person in the room was crying um and every single person in the room was embracing somebody else um it was this it was this, it was this real, it was watching permission being granted in real time for people to tap into their humanity again and to be vulnerable, which is something that, you know, we've been conditioned away from, or we can be very, we're very easily conditioned away from in the West. You're now working on another campaign around consent across Australia. Tell me about that and what are you hoping for there? So what we're trying to achieve is harmonisation of definitions and legislation that pertain

to sexual assault. So currently we've got eight different jurisdictions across Australia that govern the issue of sexual assault and therefore we have eight different definitions of consent, eight different definitions of sexual intercourse, eight different definitions of the age of a child and eight different definitions of the age of consent as well as eight different definitions of grooming and in fact grooming is not even defined at all in some jurisdictions. So what we're trying to do is establish a consensus. We're trying to establish a national approach to these issues. Because until we have a consistent definition and understanding of each of these things, we can't possibly hope to educate properly around them.

And that's part of the problem is that our ignorance is feeding the criminal behaviour. It's something that predators are capitalising on. Would you ever consider going into politics yourself? No, no, no, no, no, no. Politics, it doesn't matter what your intentions are. You know, politics is a dirty game. That's the nature of the beast, you know,

and I think a lot of people enter politics with sound mind and sound intentions, but inevitably their voice and their principles become compromised at some point. And I am just too stubborn and I'm also too cheeky for politics. Oh, no. Some people may say you're the right kind of person to go and try and clean up, as you put it, at what you see as a dirty game. Just finally, I can see because we're talking on video call

and I'm aware this is radio, so I always have to make sure I describe things for our listeners. But you've got some tattoos here on your hands or your arms, as I could see a little peek. Do you care to share what any of those are? I have one on my right hand that says, eat my fear, which, you know, sounds interesting. And the other one on my left hand, which is arguably the most important and profound of my tattoos. And it says, don't drink my beer. You know what, especially during a global pandemic, that's never been more important. Yeah. Need I say more?

She doesn't. Grace Tame there,ia's person of the year talking of the pandemic message here in my marriage one of us is vaccinated one of us is not we respect each other's decisions i have friends who are friends who are not vaccinated and i do not have a problem either way what i have a problem with is those who present their choice as the only right one for everyone i've got some messages which are very, very on the opposite side of that viewpoint, but I wanted to make sure I shared that, especially the one about a marriage and another one here. My dad hasn't been jabbed and doesn't intend on being jabbed. I think he should, but he's a mentally stable adult and I respect his right to choose. It seems

where you're diverging is, of course, which what Kate Bingham was talking about is if you're in charge of those who are vulnerable and you haven't been jabbed. Hello there, I'm a massage therapist. I'm double jabbed. I will not treat anyone who hasn't been vaccinated through choice. I'm not putting myself or my children or clients at risk and I've turned people away, but I feel for safety reasons, I have to. That's from Cathy, who's listening. Good morning to you. Now, elsewhere in the news today, gas prices are rocketing. Experts predict that as many as 39 energy supplies could fold in the next year, leaving millions of customers to transfer to new deals, expected to be charged at £1,277 a year, the maximum allowed under the price cap. For the estimated four million households living

in fuel poverty, the figures could be catastrophic. Fuel poverty disproportionately affects women. We live longer, are more likely to live alone, have lower incomes and be a single parent with children. Add that to the end of the universal credit uplift at the end of September and the large numbers of women coming to the end of furlough or have lost their jobs during the pandemic. Of course, many men have, but we've discussed the differences on that before. This winter, for some, looks very worrying indeed. Ruth London from Fuel Poverty Action is on the line. Good morning. What do you make of the current picture in terms of the picture for women? People are just now waking up

to how bad it really is for everyone. Before the pandemic, about 10,000 people a year were dying in this country because they couldn't keep their homes. And of course, as you say, women living longer are among the most vulnerable to that. Not only do we live longer, we have lower incomes. When we're working age, you get lower wages. When you're older, you get lower pensions. I know this is something you've addressed on Women's Hour before, but of course, you know, that means that more women are poorer, despite the fact that we work harder than anybody. You know, many women actually, you know, doing a full-time job caring for people at

home at the same time as going out for a job, or, you know, caring in itself is a 24-hour job very often. So after a life spent caring for other people and working ourselves to the bone, many people are finding that in your old age, you're going to bed early because your house is too cold to stay up. And this is a totally unacceptable situation. There's also, you know, as you mentioned, single mothers and other mothers, in fact, you know, having to live with the fact that children, our children, are not able to, for instance, do their homework, because it's too cold, because, you know, the price of electricity is going up, that affects your internet access, so there's not being able to pay for internet. You know, children, it may be dark, you know, if you're on a prepayment meter and you can't feed it,

you know, the lights switch off. Yeah, I mean, it's been said this morning by the government minister that was sent out to talk about this, Kwasi Kwarteng, you know, there's been reassurances about the price cap and reassurances about the fact that we will not lose supply. But just to understand the picture, because you're talking from the point of view of fuel poverty, what you said right at the beginning, again, some people may not recognise really as an issue, which is that people can die because of fuel poverty. That's right. People can die and people's health can be affected and people's health is very much affected by living in cold homes and one big factor in that which is kind of central to all of this is the state of our homes the state of repair you know the window frames that don't fit you know the repairs that aren't done and the lack of insulation and we do have the worst insulated homes in europe

and nothing is being done about it. And if you're heating the street, then it also means that when the price goes up, you're, you know, the 139 pounds increase, they say, from this price cap increase. That's an average. If you're heating the street or if you need more heat because, for instance, you're older or you have a health condition and you require heat work, then it can be many times that £139 increase because you're having to use so much energy. And insulation has always been absolutely central to that and also central to climate change. It's 27% of our emissions come from heat.

And yet, the government has not been acting on it. So that's a very important point about insulation. Forgive me, because the line is slightly difficult, but I do wish to just persist if I can. Kwasi Kwarteng, the minister on the Today programme, did say this morning, lots of schemes are in place to protect elderly and vulnerable from price increases, such as the winter fuel payment

and, as you just mentioned, the price cap. Do you not think that's enough? They don't protect people from price increases such as the winter fuel payment and, as you just mentioned, the price cap. Do you not think that's enough? They don't protect people from price increases. That's what we've had. You know, they make up for the very low level of incomes in this country, for the universal credit, low wages. You know, this is a country that's supposed to be a rich country, but you wouldn't know that. There are some people who are rich, but for many people, it really is poverty line. And it is essential that at least housing should be made warm and safe, that insulation should be done with materials that are not flammable, not toxic, don't lead to Grenfell, that it should be done in a way that doesn't disrupt people's lives, that it should be done in empty homes. We have a huge number of empty homes in this country,

even as people are homeless. They should all be required to be insulated while they're empty and then used to decant people so that people can go out while the building work is done and return to a warm, safe home. And do we have, just in terms of the numbers on this, do we have solid figures on how many women are experiencing fuel poverty? How many women as women, I don't know. But, you know, as you say, it's over 4 million that they say are in fuel poverty. We actually think that, you know, it's more who are actually rationing the amount of fuel that they use because it just costs too much. That's taken for granted. And the big solution has always been, oh, switch.

And now we're seeing what that leads to. You know, competition has been put up as if this is going to solve it, whereas, in fact, a lot of people can't switch because they're in debt or their landlord won't allow it. And a lot of people are just suspicious about it because it doesn't sound like a solution that will work. And now you see the result. Yes. Well, Ruth London from Fuel Poverty Action,

I know also it's celebrating, Fuel Poverty Action celebrating its 10-year anniversary in just over a week. Thank you very much for joining us. If you do want to hear more about that and energy efficiency, you could listen again to this morning's Life Scientific with Prof Brenda Boardman. She was named, of course, on the Woman's Hour Power List last year and has dedicated her life to these issues. So go to BBC Sounds to hear more from her.

I will do so a bit later on, so I'm very interested to hear more on that. But we've got an actual guest who's just walked into the studio and she's bearing a guitar. I mean, could this be any more exciting? Let me tell you who I'm joined by. I did mention her name earlier, but in case you missed it, the Canadian-American singer-songwriter Martha Wainwright, who has released her first album in five years. Love Will Be Reborn. It's what she calls a shedding of a skin just released last month, written in an effort, she says, to rise out of some painful depths. The album doesn't just reflect the darkness she went through during a difficult divorce,

but also the light of finding a new love. And you're here in London because you're performing. A 10-day UK tour, I believe, started last night in the Union Chapel. Hello. Hi. Yes, it did start last night in the Union Chapel and we're doing it again tonight in the Union Chapel.

And then we get in our little van and down the road, and we'll hit a bunch of cities. And how is it, just before we get to what you're singing and what you're saying, how is it performing post-pandemic, mid-pandemic, you know, however we want to term it? Yeah, exactly. Where are we? We don't really know, but it feels really great. The show last night was, you know, full capacity, but that church feels kind of, it feels, the ceilings are really high.

It felt really great. And then tonight, well, we won't be at full capacity because it was an added show. So if anyone feels uncomfortable about being really smushed together, come tonight. There will be definitely more spacing. But it is a world of difference for artists like me because I was able to make a record, I was able to do some radio or do some television spots and do some stuff, some live streams from my living room, which I think everybody's gotten tremendously bored with at this point. I'm just so overly excited to see somebody here. It's just like really getting

boring. So just to be able to be there present and see people and I got to sign records afterwards. And it was just really moving. But also what you're writing about this time, I imagine, as with a lot of your music, you want to connect with people, you want to share and they come to you because, you know, they come to their favourite artists because there's something that they feel they're going to get from them in their lives. And with this particular piece of music, with the album, with the song you're about to sing, Love Will Be Reborn, where did that come from for you? surprised when it sort of came out of me very quickly through tears at how hopeful and positive it is, because it would seem that I was just really in a kind of a scary place. I was on the

road. I was at the beginning of a difficult separation and divorce. I hadn't seen my children in a while. There was a lot of uncertainty. But this sort of positive mantra showed up and came through my voice and my fingers. And so I've been holding on to that for the last long while. And just being able to sing it and being able to sing in general really helps. Everyone knows that who sings. It just really helps in your emotional state of mind and any crisis that you might be going through. And these songs, like most of my songs, like a lot of my records are, you know, quite autobiographical or they're sort of based on things that are happening in my life. But very quickly, I think the idea is that there are things that many people can identify with, sort of the more personal, the more universal. And that you can feel in the audience.

Why don't we hear? Yeah, OK. And then we can have a chat. Stop talking about it. No, no, no. I think it's such a treat to be able to hear your voice before it talking and then afterwards. So love will be reborn. I cried only one tear for us today, and I will wipe it away before the day breaks.

And there's love in every part of me, I know, but the key is falling deep into the snow. So when the spring comes, I will find it. Beautiful, Martha Wainwright, Love Will Be Reborn, a song that was born, you say, here in the UK when you were making some journeys and it came to you as a mantra. You say in some of the words that I've read that when you've been speaking to people about your divorce, that it was so dark and you'd never expected to feel such hate, which is a strange question, perhaps off the back of that. But the darkness for people is so real. I think that's, you know, it can be really

overwhelming. And it's so sad to use that word because it's harsh and you know and i think about you know i mean i i you know i uh was obviously adored and loved my ex-husband brad albedo who's i think been in the studio with me worked with me for many years and we have two beautiful children and And I am hoping that this song is going, I'm hopeful that maybe there'll be some reconciliation at some point and that we can get beyond this difficult time. And it's already getting better, I would say. It has to because you just have to start to let go.

And I just, you know, I just was so, it was really, for me, it was about the kids. And because I travel for a living and I don't have a conservative type of job and, you know, when there's custody issues that come up and money issues that come up, it gets really, it can get really scary, you know, and you can just have these really strong feelings that I never thought I would be dealing with and, and, and anger, you know, and fear. I think that that was really the biggest fear of not being able to have access to your children and being afraid of being, you know, it's just, it's just hard, you know, when you work nights or you're kind of considered different than, you know, judges or, you know, the court systems can be kind of rough on you

and you just get really scared, you know. And has that fear, where are you now with all of that? Well, I'm accepting, you know, I'm accepting a lot of things to letting go. I think, you know, there's, you know, one of the things that does happen when you get divorced is that you do have to share your kids. And as a mom, that was really hard for me. But I have to put on a good face. I don't want the kids to see me down or pull them down into my own fear and sadness. And I, you know, recognize that maybe this is some of these emotions are not just based on this divorce, but also on, you know, stuff that happened to me as a child or whatever, you know, I'm a child, I'm a child of divorce myself, you know, and

certainly have some issues around that. So I am, I'm, I uh, you know, being able to come here, being able to play at places like the Union Chapel, being able to walk around these beautiful streets in this beautiful city of yours, you know, it just makes it okay. And to sing songs. And then I FaceTime with the kids and I go, okay, they're fine. They're happy. I'll see them in 10 days. It's going to be okay. You know? Well, I I mean the song is so beautiful and and and love in your life now I believe yes well that was the is a good new reality exactly it for it was a foretelling thing because I would never I've expected I mean I guess it's sort of a classic thing you know I got divorced around the age of 40 41 and you know you sort of

go well well I guess that's kind of it. And, you know, I'll try and go out and have some fun. But it's sort of like, you know, I was sort of, you know, just feeling bad about myself, I guess. And then to meet someone later in life, which is a different type of relationship where you just, in this case, it was just more on based on, you know, like lovingness and trust and kindness. And it was just all, it was just really unexpected. And in fact, you know, I sort of had these feelings of anger and there was hatred and I, you know, towards my ex, because I just, you get so mad, you know, and you kind of go, God, I wish you'd just gone wrong, you know. But instead, you know, something good happens. You go, well, I guess that's better.

And that's part of the music and part of the story that you're telling at the moment. And we already, as you would imagine, have many messages. I have this wonderful machine in front of me that shows me some of the messages coming in. That just brought a tear to my eye, says Solo Mama on Twitter. And Lottie says, gosh, that's beautiful. Martha Wainwright, thank you so much for being with us. Love Will Be Reborn is the name of the track and the album. And thank you for your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Lifelines, a new series of the multi-award winning Radio 4 drama, now available as a podcast. S-O-S. Sometimes heart stopping. Help us. Sometimes heart starting. No air.

Always matters of life and death. Ambulance service. Is the patient breathing and conscious? Subscribe to Lifelines on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.