Woman's Hour - Musician Self Esteem, Baroness Minouche Shafik and Female Astronomers

Episode Date: August 16, 2022

Self Esteem is creating pop with purpose, tackling the patriarchy, sexual abuse and toxic relationships to a fun danceable beat. She is nominated for this year's Mercury Prize for her second album Prioritise Pleasure and joins Emma in the studio. The cost of living crisis has been a central point of contention between the two candidates vying to be our next Prime Minister. Emma is joined by Baroness Minouche Shafik, Director of the London School of Economics. Previously deputy governor at the Bank of England - touted by many as the favourite to have replaced Mark Carney as the Governor of the Bank when he stood down in 2019, instead Andrew Bailey took the role and recently declared a recession is likely.Before 1900, a woman who wanted to study the stars had to have a father, brother, or husband to provide entry. Now in a new book ‘The Sky Is for Everyone’, thirty seven leading women working in the field of astronomy, who have broken down barriers tell their personal stories of scientific success. Two of the women featured in the book are Cathie Clarke, Professor of Theoretical Astrophysics at the Institute of Astronomy, Cambridge and Professor Carole Mundell, the Hiroko Sherwin Chair in Extragalactic Astronomy, Head of Astrophysics at the University of Bath, and President of the UK Science Council.It’s been two weeks since the Lionesses brought home the Euro 2022 trophy. Last week the England Captain Leah Williamson spoke on this programme about the importance of ensuring girls have the chance to play football. Emma is joined by Richard, not his real name, whose daughter played for the Crystal Palace junior team but has recently heard her team has been cut. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Are you struggling to pick which plan for our economy will work best? We're of course talking a lot more about the cost of living crisis. Many are feeling it. But what to do about it and what the optimum response is, is a whole other matter.

My first guest today is the former Deputy Governor of the Bank of England and now runs the London School of Economics, Baroness Manoush Shafiq. She believes we need a new social and economic contract for a better society, one which recognises women cannot be counted on to care for the young and the old for free. But what would our economy and our politics look like to you if women's actual lives and ambitions were baked into the fabric from the start rather than added in afterwards? What

changes would we see? What policies perhaps would we hear from the two vying to be the next Prime Minister that perhaps we aren't hearing enough of? If you are engaged with this or even if you're just trying to learn, I implore you to have a think and perhaps share what you think about this. Or perhaps as you hear us discuss this, something will come to you and you can text the programme. The number you need is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me through the Women's Hour website.

And you can now send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 03700 100 444. I should say data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi. Terms and conditions can be found on our website. Also on today's programme, a woman who barked on stage at Glastonbury like a dog, in part to terrify men. Now she's up for the Mercury Prize,

one of the most coveted music awards in this country. The musician Self Esteem will be joining me in the studio and with a live performance for you too. The Lioness is also thinking back to football and thinking about the future of it too. They may have brought footy home, but what about the next generation? One concerned father will be joining me with some of the reality on the ground for his daughter. But first, to those rising costs of energy bills, food, mortgages, loan prices, impacting almost everyone across the UK.

And we know women are bearing a large brunt of this. According to the Living Wage Foundation, almost 60% of all jobs paid below the living wage are we know women are bearing a large brunt of this. According to the Living Wage Foundation, almost 60% of all jobs paid below the living wage are held by women. Just yesterday, we heard parents are being left without childcare as nurseries are shutting at short notice due to financial pressures and, of course, those costs. Radio 1's Newsbeats, my colleagues there, have also been reporting that increasing numbers of young women

are posting sexual content for money on sites like OnlyFans, if we look at how younger women are being affected alongside their day jobs to cope with those rising bills. How best to deal with this crisis is a key dividing line between the two people competing to be our next prime minister. And yesterday, the Labour leader, Sakhir Starmer, offered his plan. Well, this morning, I couldn't be joined by anyone much more qualified to give her take on the world we're in than leading economist Baroness Manoush Shafiq, director of the London School of Economics. As I mentioned, previously deputy governor at the Bank of England, she was touted by many, you may remember, as the favourite to have replaced Mark Carney as the governor of the bank when he stood down in 2019.

Instead, that job went to Andrew Bailey, who predicted earlier this month that a recession is likely. Baroness Manoush Shafiq, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. I thought I'd start with an easy one. Do you agree with his assessment about a recession being likely? I'm afraid I do agree that the economy will face a serious slowdown and we will see persistent inflation into next year. OK, because, of course, as we were coming on air and it was in the news bulletins and people will be discussing the impacts of this today, is that we now know wages fell at the fastest rates on record between April and June this year, dropping 3% after inflation. What's your response to that? Would you say we're in the midst of a

national crisis? Well, I think it is incredibly serious. And, you know, the story about declining real wages has two dimensions. It has the dimension of higher inflation, which is essentially being caused by external factors and the war in Ukraine and what that's doing to energy prices. But the other dimension is stagnant wage growth. So median wages in the UK have been flat for more than a decade, which means that most people haven't seen significant increases in pay for a very low, and that's because investment is very low. And so one of the ways that we could improve things is to try and tackle those big long-term issues around productivity, investment, and helping people to achieve higher levels of wages. In terms of the way things could be different, I alluded to some of your thoughts around a new social contract and how women could be thought of completely differently within that. And I know some of our listeners will already be getting in touch with some of their views.

But we are about to have a new prime minister. You have worked in the most senior levels of the civil service. You've advised ministers. What are you hoping to see as a change? I would love to see a greater focus on the long term issues. And that means getting the best of all of the talent in the UK. And women are at the centre of that. Just to give an example, you know, we still organise our society and our economy on the assumption that women will look after the young and the old for free. And yet in the UK today, more women graduate from university than men. And all of that female talent is not being used as effectively as it could be if it was better supported through, for example, better childcare or better elderly care.

And if we had better systems for looking after the young and the old, all of those talented women could stay in the labour market and be productive and contribute to output and productivity. And that's a huge lost opportunity. And yet, when we look at what's being talked about at the moment, you know, if I was to look at the policies that are being focused on by Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak, the two, of course, competing to be the next prime minister, a lot of the talk is around the cost of living and what they would do to tackle that. Is there space for such thought? Yeah. So I think we definitely have to deal with the cost of living crisis in the near term. And the best way to deal with that is to target the resources on those who need it the most. You know, there is a war going on in the world,

and that's having global spillovers. And in a time of crisis, you need a decent society to make sure that the most vulnerable are looked after. And that's what we need to do right now. But for the medium term, the problem we face is not that our tax rates are too high. The problem we face is that our investment is too low. And some people would say, well, you cut taxes and people will invest more. Actually, that's not what the economic evidence shows. What the economic evidence shows is that if you look around the world and you ask investors what determines what makes you invest in a country, they will say first and foremost, political and economic stability. And second, the quality of the infrastructure. And

third, the skills of the people in that country. And those are the big factors that will determine whether living standards improve in the UK in the medium term. Are we appealing as a country right now? Well, I think we've had a period of great political and economic instability for many years, and that's created uncertainty and many investors have held back. And that's a problem. I think we've underinvested in infrastructure, and I think many people would see the realities of that.

And we've underinvested in skills, particularly skills of those people who don't go to university. And we don't have a good option for people who don't go to university. And we underinvest in adult learning. And so if you compare us to other countries that are good at this, countries like Denmark invest 10 times more than we do in helping adults refresh their skills and be relevant to the labour market. So I think those are the really big gaps. If we talk short term, because it would be remiss of me to have you in the studio and not try and pull upon your expertise, especially for our listeners who, you know, not all of them will be engaging with what's the best way forward. But for those who are genuinely trying to, if you look at what's on the table, Liz Truss has said she'll reverse the increase to national

insurance contributions, temporarily suspend green levies on energy bills. The Times of Reporting is reporting today she's expected to focus on increasing benefits such as universal credit and pension credit. Do you support that suite? Would that be something that you could get behind? I think for me, the most powerful lever is things like universal credit because it's targeted to the poorest. I think some of the other measures being proposed provide support to many people who don't really need it as much, and therefore it will cost much more. And so I would rather focus those other resources on some of these longer term issues that I've identified. So take care of the most needy, but focus additional resources on things like investing in skills and infrastructure and other issues. Is that a reference to what we heard yesterday?

Labour's plan, Sir Keir Starmer saying families across the board would not pay a penny more on their energy bills this winter. He wants an energy price cap freeze from this autumn. Well, I think all of our leading politicians have proposals which are not very targeted. I understand the politics of that. You want to share the benefits around and appear to be looking after everyone. But from an economic point of view, it would be wiser not to take on a very expensive support to those who may not need it. That includes things like the 400 pounds that everyone's going to get on their energy bills. Some people won't need that support and better to provide that support to others. I should also say that,

you know, the advantage of things like universal credit is it's not just energy bills that are the problem. It's also food and other costs of everything which is going up. And so providing generalized support to the most needy allows them to make the choices about how they want to spend that money. I mean, Rishi Sunak's committed to a £10 billion package, which includes temporarily scrapping VAT on energy and providing £5 billion in support for the most vulnerable households. Do you think handouts are the right thing to do at this time? Well, I don't think I... I wouldn't quite use that terminology.

I think what I'd say is that there are a lot of people whose living standards are being really hard hit through no fault of their own. It's not their fault that Russia invaded Ukraine and resulted in a massive shock to energy prices. So just like during the pandemic when we had a furlough program, because many people's livelihoods were affected because of a global pandemic through no fault of their own, a good society provides insurance to everyone in a time of crisis. And I think that's the philosophy that should underpin our approach. Yes. I mean, you may not describe it as that, and that's fair enough. But there are a lot of people very concerned about the amount of debt we have, that's all, at this point, and how to balance that. I suppose taking a step back, and I was listening to some of the interviews you've

done in the past, you said something once, I think it was on Desert Island this week, you said bad policies tend to get undone. And I suppose it's quite difficult for people right now to know, I mean, they're not having an election, but to see what's being offered, and what is the best route. And one hopes that economics has the answers, but it's not that straightforward because politics gets in the way. Well, politics does have to face the trade-offs. And what economics can do is say, here are the costs of your choices. Debt levels are high. And that's why I think it's more prudent to provide support to those who need it the most as opposed to generalized support because if you provide generalized support, it's really expensive and debt goes up. I think the

other thing I'd say is whether your debt is sustainable or not, how much debt you can afford depends hugely on how well your economy is doing. You know, I have a German mother-in-law who grew up during the war, and she always used to say, everything is better with butter. And I often think that's the same about economic growth. Everything is easier with economic growth. If you have a growing economy, you can increase public services.

You can provide support to the most needy in your society. You can invest in the future, needy in your society. You can invest in the future and your debt won't go up because your economy is growing and generating tax revenues so that you can afford these things. And so I think a focus on longer term growth of the economy is actually the real answer rather than focusing on whether we can afford to cut taxes and what that will do to debt and so on. So you're not very inspired by this right now? You know, I understand the short term politics, but I don't think they're dealing with the long term serious issues. You have previously advised Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Has Rishi Sunak or Liz Truss been in touch?

At the moment, I'm running the London School of Economics. Yeah, but have they sent you a WhatsApp asking what you think? No. Okay. Are you allowed to say, would you say to us, which you would prefer as Prime Minister? No, but I'd be happy to, you know, provide economic advice for, you know, whomever is, you know, interested in improving the economic situation in the country. Do you buy the idea that there was this idea floating, I'd really like to get your take on it, that during COVID, some talked about women making better political leaders. Jacinda Ardern was cited a lot. I'm sure you'll remember this at the beginning, especially at the beginning of lockdown, the Prime Minister of New Zealand. We may about to be having our third female prime minister in this country. We may.

Do you buy into that? Yeah, I have a hard time saying that, which in times of crisis are really useful attributes. Now, I also know many men who have those attributes. You know, my friend Christine Lagarde used to always say that, you know, there's a woman in all of us. And many male colleagues, if they bring out the woman in them, would be able to have these attributes, which are very useful in a time of crisis. I think more – I've also seen very interesting evidence that the leaders who did really well in the pandemic and the countries that did really well were countries in which there was high levels of trust. And you can show that fewer people died in countries where trust levels were high. And in countries which were very polarised in which lack of trust between citizens with each other, and between citizens and their government did much more poorly. And so I think that's

probably a more powerful indicator of good leadership than gender. Whether you're a woman or a man in this particular role, I mean, because of course, many had hoped, who are familiar with your work, that you would be the leader of the Bank of England. Do you think because of what we were talking about before, and I've got a very interesting message to share with you from one of our listeners about your thoughts around a new social contract. Do you think because of what we were talking about, baking women in from the beginning, do you think that could mean if a woman was leading the Bank of England, it would be important to have a woman in that role for the very first time?

I think that, you know, a woman running monetary policy is going to do it in a very different way than a man running, you know, Christine is running the European Central Bank and, you know, and yeah, and that's not, you know, I don't think there's any notion of a feminine monetary policy. I think it comes up more in other contexts where women's issues are more salient and where a woman might be more sensitive to them. So, for example, the cost of childcare in the economy. The UK has the most expensive childcare in Europe. I think a woman leader would be probably a bit more attuned to why that's an important economic issue than a man might be. So I think that's the way I think about it.

There's a message here from Penelope who said it was stated that if we did support women giving free childcare and elderly care differently, then those women could become productive. I mean, it's couching what you said in a slightly different way. But let's just go with this for the purposes of the message from Penelope. This is not wrong, but it's hardly a feminist perspective. As someone who spent years as a home parent with a hardworking husband on a very modest income, I was very engaged with my children, very involved in community activities, did

two additional part-time degrees. I deeply resent the notion that this wasn't productive. This nation's inability to consider productivity in purely economic terms is part of the problem. What would you say to that? Well, I'd say what's important is that women have the choice to spend their time in the way this listener has, which sounds like incredibly productive in so many ways.

But many women don't have that choice. And I think the question, what I would argue is that we need a system and a society which enables women who want to be in paid work to be able to do that freely, and men who don't want to be in paid work and who want to spend time at home with children to be able to do that. And currently our system doesn't provide families that menu of choices which enables everyone to use their talent in the best way possible. You've also talked about a trinity of what you need as a woman if you do have children. And that's, tell me again, it's a boss, a good boss, good childcare and a good partner.

And if all three of those are working well, it's doable. But if any one of those isn't working well, and I think we all know times in our own lives when either we didn't have a supportive boss or our childcare arrangements had collapsed. It's very tough for working mothers. Well, Sheryl Sandberg, I mean, the former chief operating officer or outgoing chief operating officer of Meta, the company that owns Facebook and Instagram, essentially had to not rewrite her very successful book, Lean In, but once her husband tragically died, she suddenly had this whole other view of being a single parent, albeit in an extremely comfortable scenario. But that is a key part of what you're talking about. Absolutely. Absolutely.

It's just talking about when women do get further up and if they are able to stay in work and do well and try and fulfil their ambitions and what they're doing in their line of work. You've said that your time at the International Monetary Fund was made a lot easier, as we just previously mentioned. Christine Lagarde, now president of the European Central Bank, was running it.

Why was her presence helpful? Why can other women, I suppose, being in the sphere, being in the same space, it still can be a lonely place, I imagine. Yeah. And I think when you're the only woman in the room, it is lonely. And it's really nice to have other women around the table. It just normalizes the situation. So I think certainly in my own career, I've worked in organizations which were very male-dominated and others where it was a bit more balanced. And it always felt more comfortable being in those that were balanced. Women spoke up more around the table.

The kind of culture of meetings and how things were discussed was different when you had more women around the table. I think also that comfortableness to share your own personal experience and what has influenced you is also important, even in an economic environment or what you're talking about, monetary policy. I just also wanted to ask you while you were here, the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, of course, former Chancellor, he's come out very recently to say energy firms unable to offer lower bills

should temporarily be renationalised. You and your family lived through the realities of nationalisation in Egypt, as I understand it, that's where you were born, but resulted in great financial losses for your family. You said it was a well-intentioned policy, but do you agree with Gordon Brown about renationalization? Well, I think what I would do instead, which would be to look at windfall taxes, because again, as I said about households who are being adversely affected through no fault of their own by a war going on, many of these firms are achieving huge levels of profit through no

particular effort of their own. They happen to own some energy assets and those assets are now worth a lot more and they're earning quite a lot more as a result. So I do think it's legitimate in that kind of situation to look at they can afford to pay more tax and those benefits could accrue to those who are suffering as a result. So I would, you know, again, I would, the intention, I think, is sound, but I think the way I would do it a little bit differently than nationalization. Okay, so windfall tax, a one-off tax imposed by a government on a company, you would support that particular policy at this moment? At this moment, I think it would be a legitimate...

And you don't think that would drive investment away from the country, which is the argument, one of the arguments against it? Yeah, I think if it's time bound and clear that it's a one off, I don't think it will have a long term effect on investment. We are about to have some music and I know you are a music fan. I'm going to take you to somewhere, maybe the playlist that you have to listen to when you're thinking about all these things and making such decisions and forming such views. I believe it's called by your husband that you have a suffering women playlist. Can you talk to me about that, Manish? I mentioned this when I did Desert Island Discs, but yes, I have a playlist of, you know, Joni Mitchell, Adele, that kind of music.

Edith Piaf, I my husband can't bear. And he sort of rolls his eyes and says, oh, suffering women. But exactly. I have lots of solidarity from my women friends who are fond of such music. When are you listening to this? Are you listening to this on your headphones when you're going into a Bank of England meeting? When you were doing international monetary policy? I don't know, when you're advising Boris Johnson,

were you listening to a Suffering Women playlist? Usually when I'm walking to work. Okay, walking to work. I've just got this brilliant vision of you in very important rooms with very important people, as yourself, listening to a bit of Edith Piaf to get yourself, or Adele to get yourself going, or perhaps my next guest,

who I'll tell you about in just a moment. Thank you so much for talking to us today. Many messages coming in about how if we put women at the centre of the economy, how things could look a bit different. Do come back and talk to us again. Baroness Manoush Shafiq there, now of course in charge of the London School of Economics.

I will come to some of your messages and suggestions in just a moment. But let me tell you, who has walked into the studio? Let me give you a quote from her. Nothing terrifies a man more than seeing a woman who appears totally deranged. Those are the words etched on the stage wall behind my next guest as she performed to a packed out tent at this year's Glastonbury, the musician Self Esteem. She tackles patriarchy, sexual abuse, toxic relationships and puts it all to an irresistible, danceable beat.

I'm sure many of you know her work. Rebecca Lucy Taylor, the woman behind the self-esteem stage name. She's 35, she's from Rotherham, and she's nominated for this year's Mercury Prize, one of the most coveted awards in music, for her second album, Prioritised Pleasure, which we'll be putting on the Baroness's playlist as she leaves. She was the BBC's Introducing Act of the Year in 2021, and shortly, Rebecca

Self-Esteem is going to be performing her track, I Do This All the Time. Good morning. Good morning. Lovely to have you in. Bit of chat about economic policy to warm us all up. Speaking of suffering women, here I am. You're here. You need to get on that playlist. I mean, I'm shocked I'm not, but it's alright.

We can sort that out today. It's a busy green room at Women's Earth today. We can have lots of collaboration. I wanted to say congratulations on the Mercury Prize nomination. I know that it's sunk in maybe by now, but it's quite a moment for you because you took a big risk and you left the band you'd been in for a long time and went solo. Yes, yes.

And I, yeah, the Mercury Prize was, it was five things I wanted to achieve by, yeah, taking that risk and putting myself first and having the autonomy to make what I wanted to make. And any one of the five would have like proved me right kind of thing. But I've done all five now. So can we get a short, short list? So I wanted to be on the cover of a magazine,

which is a bit you know empty as the goals go but I did I support empty goals as well as the fulfilling ones they're a mix

Mercury Prize nomination play Glastonbury what was the other two was it compose the soundtrack to a wonderful play no no not even that wasn't even on oh gosh

I can't remember well that's alright. You've done, you've achieved. I like the fact you had a list though because apparently it was also RuPaul that was part of your power and inspiration. Yeah, like that show, like, basically my old band and my old life,

my 20s and my teens were very like, being really brilliant was actively discouraged and if I like showing off was a like, thing that I've always been told not to do. But when you watch Drag Race and like the best show off wins. And I was like, oh, that's so. Yeah. But my whole career as self-esteem has just been this really slow penny dropping where I'm like everything that pretty much everything that made my teens and 20s difficult is you know sexist it's as simple as that and you don't and it wasn't said to men what was said to

me and and was that said to you by the people around you family or are you talking about in the industry or like the industry and like the world I was in and just I think like it's remarkable how far we've come already in terms of like what how I don't know maybe people just scared of me now and they don't say anything which I'm fine with but um in the industry gosh like I was made to feel like such trouble really by existing and being ambitious and wanting things because while you were in the previous band which was more folksy and you were singing as a pair and you were doing so many gigs i mean my goodness that was that was your whole life wasn't it and your skin and everything was difficult it sounded if i was to paraphrase

that's the thing i was making money and i was miserable maybe that would have been different but i was like this is rubbish and i'm skin yeah but i like the fact that you went online to have your outlet for your real personality you were trying to still be you somewhere. Yeah, I mean, it's well documented in so many things, so much media, so many arts. Like, if you can't be who you are, your mental health really suffers. It's like, it's a tale as old as time.

And now I look back and realise, I didn't realise I was so squashed. It's not one person's fault. It's just society plus, like, my wiring was like, just don't be any trouble, you know. I was born in 86 in Rotherham. I had a very sort of normal upbringing. But what I wanted to do wasn't normal.

And I don't know. Well, I do like the fact that on the um drum kit you've got keep lyrics uncomfortable printed on the skin now uh tell me about that I just think certainly for me I'm generalizing massively but it's like being uncomfortable is this thing like we need to um my life and everyone I've been surrounded with just like wants to avoid at all costs whereas like the more sort of enlightened I get the more therapy I do I'm like you have to be brave enough to be uncomfortable because if you're not you're just you're burying it and it comes out somewhere else so my my life is a one in questions that's what I do for a living I ask people questions and the one that annoys me the

most just linking to that yeah is whenever you ask somebody how they are the first certainly the first answer is never true no and what's the point in that i'm not very excited by that you know how are you today um okay you know i'm sick of being very wet through with my own sweat you've been hot too are all the time i don't know it's like i don't know how to have a quality of life in this in this way but apart from from that, I'm good. I'm honestly having the best time. My band are amazing.

We're busy and it's insane, but it's so worth it. And that's what it didn't used to feel like. I'm very happy to hear that. Can you just, before you do perform for us, which we're very excited about, I do this all the time. That's the song you're going to sing for us. What's it about?

Well, I mean, this is, I was like, I had a sort of writer's block, I guess. I wanted to just try anything. All the records I've made have always been trying to make it or get there. And this, my whole prioritised project completely was coming from a place of, I don't care anymore. I'm just going to do what I think.

And this is the main song where I thought, I don't care. I'm just going to do what I think. It's just my, I'm relaying my experience and where I'm just gonna do what I think and this is the main song where I thought I don't care I'm just gonna do what I think it's just my I'm relaying my experience and where I'm at and that's makes I don't know that's the music I want to make and it's been lovely that loads of people go oh I love this I feel like that too well I think I said to you just before we came on how one of my friends heard you were coming on today and just said yes yes! In capital letters. It's so nice. I think it's your song to probably wear that leotard that you wear on the album cover.

Well, it's going to spare because I... Is that comfy? Looks like it's quite pulled up high. It was pulled up high. I don't know where it is, actually. It might be a while after fitting back into that, to be honest. But yeah, it's gone. It's gone. I've ingested it.

I think you have ingested it. But I'm going to let you make your way to the microphone because we're gonna have a chat afterwards as well due to rights reasons we've had to remove the performance from this podcast wonderful wonderful i just want to tell you who else is in the studio having a hug with rebecca lucy taylor right now on vocals sophie galpin levi heaton margaret sha and Serafina Darby on backing vocals. Beautiful. Thank you so much to all of the women in the studio right now. I want to make sure we named you. And also, of course, to Rebecca Lucy Taylor. I'm going to welcome you, Rebecca, just back to the microphone, if I will.

Many messages coming in while they've been listening. I absolutely love Rebecca Lucy Taylor, having seen her live a few times. Although it's always far too sweaty, it's euphoric. She's great. Everyone should check out her album. She's a lyrical genius and incredible live performer. We love you. And another one here, which I thought you'd love.

Having heard self-esteem lyrics at the age of 51, it makes me think I was right all along. All the irritations of my 20s and 30s were justified. She's every lesson I want my 14 year old daughter to embrace there you go full body goose is there even my knees are going thank you some very powerful lyrics in there and and i think don't be embarrassed by all you've had is fun is something to to really hang your hat on for a lot of women yeah yeah i just it's just been this constant thing like well all this is fair enough but when are you going to get married and have a kid?

Or certainly that have a kid thing. And I mean, maybe I will, but I just can't. Yeah, the last sort of five years of my life, I've just been like, so am I, the idea that I failed if I don't seems bananas to me. And then that unlocked a lot of other things that I'm like, that's also bananas. Sorry, no slight on bananas but um the the sort of um barometer of your life the the goal posts yeah that you were given to mark your life by you've tried to look at them and negotiate yeah that one was like a gateway to what else have I just always had this constant fear I'm not doing well enough that doesn't really exist? Yes. And I think, you know, also I mentioned, and I don't want to never pick up on something and not explain it, but I mentioned about, you know, you composing the lyrics to an amazing play. writer interview her here on on women's art of prima facie fantastic play very powerful play

not to ruin anything but essentially how the justice system doesn't deal with rape allegations and rape cases in the way that perhaps centers women and talks about women's experiences i think that's a fair summation yeah you were asked to compose that that that music's now available as well for people what was that like what did that mean to you to have that link it was it's one of the best experiences of my life for loads of reasons but there was like it's a producer that saw that my work is aligned with that anyway my record alone could probably scored it um and just to be seen by someone and trusted, even though I've not got previous of composing. And it was just so, I just realised how much in my life

I've just not been trusted or listened to in a sort of professional capacity. But then also it's good producing because it was the right, you know, like I said, like everything I'm always going on about is what the play is about. Did anyone produce you when you barked like a dog? I did mention. said you said you

talked about uh if approached by a group of men uh we will bark like you know what that's not my quote so I did a um I did a summer school in 2019 it would have been with the national youth theatre and it was yeah so you play a clip by a woman who says that yeah and we all had these chats and it was sort of a remarkable time in my life where they were all sort of 18 to 21. And I'm sat there thinking, everything's different now for the kids. And some of them were so addled by exactly the same things I am. And we had this discussion about what do you do to walk home? And every single one of them is still, you know, it's not news, is it?

That we have to like, keys between your fingers and all these things. But what they did have, which me and the director I was working with didn't have was like kind of creative new ideas, which was like bought like a dog at men. And it's true. Like, no, I haven't really got anything eloquent yet. But, you know, like the biggest in my relationships where men have called me crazy, that's like an absolute dagger to my heart.

But then I have also sort of noticed like to weaponize crazy is is will keep me safe so there's sort of two things in tandem and and disrupt again what somebody may be expecting yeah it's expectation every step of the way my life is I've really struggled with my mental health and it's pretty much down to like yeah me not meeting expectations and people pleasing as well you've talked about that I mean we could do a whole then my woman's out we could do a day on that oh I well yeah I need to do a podcast so maybe that's it let's just really slowly talk about people pleasing it's just uh yeah I I hesitate because I sometimes feel like I sound like it's 3am at someone's kitchen. And I'm like, the thing is...

That's what I aim for with this radio programme, to be honest. But it is, it's such a... It's just been such a... There's so many layers of wool pulled over my eyes. And all I'm doing with my music is relaying that. I didn't sit down and go, I'm going to make a message for women who aren't heard. Just telling you how I feel. Well, a lot of women, as I can see, are feeling similarly

or very happy that you have done it. Many messages coming in. And some saying actually they've moved to tears listening to you live. Rebecca Lucy Taylor, self-esteem as you are known. Thank you so much for coming into Woman's Hour. And thanks for performing. Yeah, let's do that people-pleasing podcast. I'll get on to your people.

Right, great. We'll have a date after this. 3am we'll record it. And I'll come-pleasing podcast. I'll get on to your people. Right, great. We'll have a date after. 3am we'll record it and I'll come straight into the studio. I'll be fresh. Rebecca, all the best and good luck for the Mercury.

Thank you, Darl. Thanks so much. Now, it's been two weeks since the Lionesses brought home the Euro 2022 trophy. It's the achievement that the players

and many fans of the game hope will change the game forever. Last week, the England captain, Leah Williamson, spoke on this programme. She was captaining it, I believe. I definitely need to catch up on that one,

about the importance of ensuring all girls have the chance to play football. Well, today, a different story for you, a reality, if you like. I'm joined by Richard, not his real name. We've changed it. He didn't want his identity to be known. His daughter played football

for the Crystal Palace junior team until the day of the Euro 2022 final when he got a call to tell him that her team was being dropped. Richard, good morning. Good morning. She's been playing for a while as I understand it, but now without a team. What happened?

Yes, she's been playing for Crystal Palace for a couple of years. She played with grassroots football before that. And as you say, an hour before we set off to Wembley to go and watch the Lionesses, we had a phone call to say that the age group team she was in has been scrapped by Crystal Palace for this coming season. Right, because I mean, we've got a statement here from the football club. They say Crystal Palace women has previously been an independent entity, which was largely funded by Crystal Palace FC. The club is in the process of taking over the business and operations as well as significantly increasing investment and is only a handful of Premier League clubs investing significant sums to create a professional team. The women's senior team regularly train at the academy and will play a number of games at Selhurst Park, a stadium at Crystal Palace, in the forthcoming season. Whilst there are self-funded junior girls teams

run by the current organisation, there is currently no official women's academy. We will review this in due course, along with the wider set-up and pathway for junior players. Does that go any way to explaining it to you? It's a message we've certainly heard before. And obviously, the Crystal Palace men's team investing and taking over the running of the Crystal Palace women's team,

I think is a great step forward to get more funding, better support for the women. The women, as far as I understand, the women's first team, it's only this last year that they've actually started training at the Crystal Palace Academy that was built. Before that, they trained separately. And that's great for the first team, but there's a long pipeline of getting girls trained and ready to be able to play in that team. And at the moment, there seems to be a massive disconnect between those two.

What was your daughter's reaction to the news? She was gutted. It took us a couple of days before we could even tell her. Obviously, just before we went off to Wembley, it was not good. We'd put something in place. She had had offers from other teams, not at the same level as Crystal Palace. We'd actually gone back to one of those to see whether the offer was still valid. And they've snapped her up to put her into that. So we were able to soften the message a little bit by saying, yes, explain what we'd been told by the club, that they'd been scrapped. But the silver lining is she's going to play for this other team.

It's probably a difficult reality to try and explain, as you say, on the day of going to watch that final. Yes, yes. And obviously it's disappointing for our daughter. She's very proudly played for that club. It was a club with a badge and people, if you say you play football and you say you play football and it's a team they recognise,

you can see her lift as she says that um and now she's in the situation where she's still enjoying her football but she's got the embarrassment of having to tell her friends and that she's no longer part of that um and i think that's there are certain friends she's still not told quite close friends she's not told because she hasn't felt comfortable doing that yet. And I suppose, you know, when we've been hearing from the players who kind of paved the way, they're hoping that there are these junior levels set up properly now to feed the next generation.

What's your view of that compared to how, you know, the boys her same age are also being invested in? I think that investment is that key phrase. The boys are being invested in the i think i think that investment is is that is that key phrase the boys are massively invested in they if you just take crystal palace as a um as an example they start them from the under eights um in the boys they get um you know they get more coaches they have physios on site when they're coaching they have performance coaches they have nutritional coaches um the girls don't get any of that the girls get the coaches who are running the team and that's about it so they you know the experience they're getting even down to basics around kit the boys get four sets of kit the girls get um a top um shorts and and socks

to play as Crystal Palace. And it was only due to the sponsorship by one of the parents that actually they got a training kit for this year. The boys get training kit and everything automatically. So the investment thing is just so wide apart. You just felt you're treated like second-class citizens throughout the whole thing. Well, she's not to us.

Say hello to her, your daughter. Certainly will. She's listening in. At Woman's Hour. Thank you for coming on and painting a picture of the reality for some at this point. And I'm sure others who are listening, and I would say to you, if you can identify with what Richard and his daughter are going through, do get in touch with us. Let us know. We're keen to follow up what is being described

as the legacy of the Lionesses and lack thereof or completely the other way. It's now boosting investment where you live, perhaps. 84844, that's the number you need to get in touch. You can also WhatsApp. All the contact details are on the website. Richard, thank you to you. I should say we've also got a statement from the FA,

the Football Association, which says, the growth of the women's game remains a core strategic priority. The game continues to develop at all levels and the academy system is currently being reviewed. Now, before 1900, a woman who wanted to study the stars had to have a father, brother or husband to provide entry. Now in a new book, The Sky is for Everyone, 37 leading women working in the field of astronomy who have broken down barriers tell their personal stories of scientific success.

And I'm joined by two of them, Cathy Clark, Professor of Theoretical Astrophysics at the Institute of Astronomy and Professor Carol Mundell, the Hiroko Sherwin Chair in Extragalactic Astronomy, Head of Astrophysics at the University of Bath and the President of the Science Council.

A warm welcome to both of you. And I thought I'd start with Carol, if I may, because I thought having this collection together, what do you think it does, Carol? Well, Emma, for me, it was a riveting read. I mean, this is over 50 years of living history and you can see the incredible transformation in our field. And I mean, just listening to Richard there, the barriers in football, I think it was Leah herself who said, we need to provide equal access to girls. And you can see that that access to physics

and to astrophysics and to science for girls and women is still not equal, but there have been much greater strides to try to break down the barriers and remove the roadblocks. So for me, it was personally very, very fascinating. And some of the women in this book were icons to me when I was a young student and I was reading their work. But what struck me really reading this was that I was too in awe of them to reach out. And I wonder now looking back, if I'd been a young man would I've had the the social capital

and the confidence to create those networks so there's lots for me personally that I'm reflecting my career and also you can't be what you can't see so I think this collection is the tip of the iceberg but it's the start of a conversation not the culmination of one really about equality and diversity and science and Carol tell me about a dress when you were younger it played a role. Yeah so we were actually asked to think about how we got into astrophysics when we were writing our chapters and I was talking to my to my mum and there were two things that really came out there she said she was listening to the Apollo moon landings when she was expecting me and I was born a few weeks later so she's convinced that that was what laid the path for me to be an astrophysicist but she also mentioned the math stress and I was I remember vividly I was about five years old I was actually learning to read

so I couldn't read but I had this dress and I went to a party and I remember trying to to read the symbols upside down I went to the photo album I got the photo out for the book and I scanned it and lo and behold I could actually see what the symbols were and they weren't letters and they weren't just simple arithmetic they were fruit on the dress they were actually really complex mathematical symbols like integrals and summations so although me and my parents you know we could never have actually understood what those symbols were because we weren't a mathematical household in some ways that math confidence began almost at the age of five. I

wasn't afraid of those symbols, but those symbols now I've used in my professional career to unlock the mysteries of the universe. Maybe we should, I love the way you just casually said that, to unlock the mysteries of the universe. As just a final bit of that thought, I was about to say, maybe we should be issuing that dress to all five-year-olds across the country and give them a taste. I mean, it's a serious point, I think, because, you know, there is this gender bias, I think, that we've seen emerging in toys and in clothes and girls' toys are very sort of passive and boys' toys are very active.

And actually, you know, girls are active. We see this in football. We see this in, you know, in science. Let them get their hands on stuff. Let them actually play with electronics from a young age. Lego, let Lego be active for them. Let me bring in Cathy at this point. Cathy, what was it for you?

Did you have a dress, a fetching dress with a lot of codes on it? I didn't have a fetching dress, I'm afraid. But for me, I think an interest in astronomy was all part of just being fascinated by the natural world around me. I was lucky enough to grow up in West Cornwall and we were very strongly encouraged by our parents as children to just be interested in everything. In fact, my mother had a maxim, only boring people are bored. You just go out there and you engage with what's around you. And did you have a pathway to do it? Did you know how to do it?

I did because my mother had been to Cambridge and I was sort of encouraged in that direction. But I think it's important to say that for astronomy, being able to do maths and physics is also part of the piece. And I loved that. And of course, that could have led in many directions. But for me, it was returning to wanting to study the natural world, which when I got a degree in physics, I thought astronomy, that would be very, very fascinating. As Carol says, unlocking the secrets of the universe. And part of what you do, I understand you're the first woman to win the Royal Astronomical Society's Eddington Medal in 2017, since 1953 for your work on photo evaporation. Could you tell us a bit about what you're doing? And I'm happy to hear it also includes a pen

and paper occasionally, not just computers. It does, because increasingly with the complexity of the processes that are being studied everything is done on a computer and occasionally it's very nice if you spot a way of being able to cast it in a more simple way using pen and paper equations and that doesn't happen so often these days but that was something that I managed to achieve with this problem. And the problem is? Yes the problem is we're basically trying to understand under what circumstances planets form you know like our own earth and what we really believe these days is that that's very sensitive to the environment in the galaxy in which the star lives and that if you're trying to form planets

close by a really massive star which is belting out ultraviolet radiation, it can fry the raw material for making the planets before the planets have a chance to form. So it's a kind of environmental science for planet formation, if you like. I'm trying to figure out this process called photoevaporation and the impact that it's having on the ability of stars to form planets and then, of course ultimately potentially form platforms for life. How do you know if you're right? It's a very good question.

There are places in our galaxy where planetary systems are forming now. I mean our own planetary system formed four and a half billion years ago but we can look at other places where they are forming. So we can try and study with telescopes that process. But interpreting them means you need theory as well. I'm a theorist. This is where the equations come in. So astronomical images are very glorious, but it's not just for the aesthetics that we take pictures. It's also to put in the theory

and figure out the processes that are going on there. Well, it's lovely to be taken in for a moment and then try and expand my own mind. Carol Mundell, to come back to you, amongst your many achievements and what you study, you've also been the first female chief scientific advisor to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I know you were chief scientific advisor on SAGE

during the COVID crisis. I mean, how did you find trying to get ministers to listen to you? Was that harder or easier than some of the studies you've been undertaking? I think ministers are very busy people. So you need to make messages clear. The purpose of the conversation needs to be very clear. And certainly for me, there was a great interest in science. I think that came across with all of the ministers that I worked with, and foreign secretaries that I worked with as well, that understanding that investing in science and technology across our world leading UK ecosystem, and that we are international collaborators of

choice around the world was very important. And I think the Prime Minister articulated that clearly as well in many of the strategies that we worked on. And for me, really, I think, as you mentioned, SAGE, that of course, you know, and it has been an incredibly difficult time for our country and for the world. But working in the Foreign Office, we were operationally very much at the front line there. Obviously, we were working very closely with our colleagues in Wuhan right at the beginning of the January of 2020. And for me, it was just really humbling. It's the hardest work I've ever done in my life. but it was hugely humbling to see the whole of our science ecosystem, you know, the scientists, the academics, the operational experts, the medics, just focusing all of their attention to try to solve this incredibly hard scientific problem at the frontiers of knowledge. And also, you know, our really hardworking

civil servants really serving the country in the most difficult time you know that we could imagine and the pace of work the volume of work also under the public glare so really intense period of time I mean I've not actually managed to mention it will go into any detail for which I apologize your award-winning work on black hole driven explosions or gamma ray bursts but you mentioned the word humbling there. Very briefly, both of you, first to you, Carol, if I can. Is it humbling working in this field, you know, looking up and figuring out your place in the universe? Absolutely. And I think her self-esteem said that the most important thing is to have fun. Science is creative. It is fun. And as Kathy says,

you have to be rigorous. But actually, you really are at the forefront of creativity when you're trying to understand our origins in the universe in this 13.9 billion year history. And we're sentient beings for such a tiny fraction of that time. Cathy? Yeah, I mean, I agree totally. And I think the wonderful thing about astronomy is the objects that you're studying are to some extent, not tangible, but you can see them, either through telescopes or through just going out on the night sky and marvelling at what you can see. Lots of areas of science, maybe it's a bit more abstract what you're explaining, but I think you can just go out after dark and you can reconnect with the objects that you're studying with. And

I think that's wonderful and humbling. Have a massive step back, as it were. Absolutely. Not the zoom in and pen and paper trying to explain. Cathy Clark, thank you for taking us into your world, albeit all too briefly. And to you as well, Carol Mundell, for your time. And, you know, that dress, I'm still thinking about it as a dress wearer. Maybe I could get one in my size now. Who knows? Thank you to you for your contributions today.

Many of you have been in touch to talk about, you know, getting women into the heart of things as always, but also your responses to what you've heard today. An amazing variety of minds and talents and creativity. So big thanks to our guests as well. And as always, I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Jade Adams and in Welcome to the Neighbourhood, I take a peek at the nation's community apps and message boards for some comedy eavesdropping.

Does anyone know who's parked in our drive? I got hit by a potato on the high street earlier. Could you please have some decency and close the curtains if you're having sex? Each episode, I'll be joined in my online curtain twitching by a different guest, including James Acaster. You don't need to put out a theme to the local community. You can just go straight to the police. Sarah Keyworth. I highly doubt she's read The Highway Code. And Helen Bower. They're inciting a riot in three sentences. Welcome to The Neighbourhood with me, Jade Adams,

on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.