Woman's Hour - Musician & singer, Abi Sampa; Celibacy; Chinaza Onyechi; Femicide

Episode Date: October 8, 2021

Over the last few years, the figures around celibacy have generally been on the rise - particular amongst young women. What’s to be gained from making this life choice? And what should one know before deciding to become celibate? Anita speaks to sex therapist Danielle Bennett, and two women who have experience with celibacy. Laura Kennedy is in her 30’s and was celibate for six years. Shirley Yanez is in her 60s and became celibate as part of a conscious change in lifestyle.Chinaza Onyechi has always dreamed of becoming a film maker but she says like other children from a Nigerian background she was encouraged to take up a more traditional career like law, medicine or engineering. But she is now one step closer to that film-making dream, after being awarded the MetFilm School's first Black Student of Talent scholarship. The scholarship covers full tuition fees for a year and could be worth around £50,000 depending on the course.Susan Ogilvy rediscovered learning in her seventies. As a botanical artist from Somerset, she started a journey into painting nests she serendipitously found. This was the start of an ornithological education, specifically into birds nests. Ogilvy has since painted more than fifty bird nests from life, each time marvelling at its ingenious construction. They have been collated in her new book, Nests. The first in a genre that has been dominated by male authors with very little focus on birds nests. Do gender-neutral terms, such as "homicide" and "murder," systematically ignore targeted violence against women? Should femicide be seen as a separate category? If women are being killed specifically because they're women, does that matter? Do motives matter? Anita is joined by Karen Ingala Smith, co-founder of Femicide Census and Chief Exec of Nia, a charity that runs services for women and girls who have been subjected to sexual and domestic violence and abuse.Abi Sampa describes herself as a "weird warbling electric Veena player". She trained as a dentist and then appeared on The Voice in 2013, where she wowed the judges with her unique style of as a fusion of western pop and Indian classical music. She joins Anita to explain how she plays the electric Veena and to describe her performances with the orchestral Qawwalli Project, reviving old Sufi poems and putting their own spin on them musically with a western orchestral style. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Danielle Bennett Interviewed Guest: Laura Kennedy Interviewed Guest: Shirley Yanez Interviewed Guest: Chinaza Onyechi Interviewed Guest: Susan Ogilvy Interviewed Guest: Karen Ingala Smith Interviewed Guest: Abi Sampa

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Morning all. You might have caught a glimpse of Adele on the cover of both UK and US Vogue. She looks sensational, as you might imagine, but it's what she's spoken about in the interview that caught my eye this morning. She talks about her new album, 30, being a way of explaining to her son that she left his father in pursuit of her own happiness. Wow. Such a small sentence, isn't it? To pursue your own happiness. But how easy or difficult is it to do? Have you done it? What decision have you made that was solely for you, that some may say is selfish, but you did it because you wanted to prioritise yourself? Whether it was divorce, leaving a job, going travelling, treating yourself, leaving a

relationship. Tell me about that difficult choice you had to make. You can text me this morning on 84844. And then, no sex please, we're celibate. That's what we're talking about today, celibacy. Choosing not to have sex. In a world that's seemingly obsessed with sex, can you imagine life without it? Imagine what it would do to your life. How would you live differently? Maybe make decisions differently. Maybe have more time to think about yourself. Maybe you couldn't think of anything worse. While Generation Z are having less sex than previous generations, can you contemplate opting out, even temporarily? Think about coming of age without the often awkward pressure of having to think about having sex, even if you don't want to. So whether

you abstain from sex or not, we want to hear your thoughts about it this morning. Text me on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. So do check with your network provider for extra costs or contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, you can drop us an email by going to our website. Then we are discussing the construction of a magnificent feat of architecture. It's natural. It's sympathetic to its surroundings, using everything from twigs, cobwebs, rotten wood, even saliva. Sounds cosy. And they are, if you're a bird.

I'll be discussing birds' nests with Susan Ogilvie, a botanical illustrator, who's just brought out a beautiful new book of art. And it's Friday, so we're going to have some gorgeous music. Singer, wiener player and dentist, Abby Sampo will be coming in to talk to me about her music. 84844 is the number to text. Now, celibacy is on the rise. And that is what we will be talking about in just a moment.

You can also email me via our website. But first, Adele is everywhere. On the front pages of all the papers this morning, talking about her new album 30 and in particular how she hopes it will explain to her son why she decided to divorce his dad. She says, I just felt like I wanted to explain to him through this record when he's in his 20s or 30s who I am and why I voluntarily chose to dismantle his entire life in the pursuit of my own happiness.

So what impact would making such a huge decision have on a child and the wider family unit? Laverne Antrobus is a children and family psychologist and joins me now to talk about this. Morning, Laverne. Great to have you on the programme. It's so unusual to hear a woman talk about putting her own happiness first isn't it good morning i mean it is but i think it's at the heart of this subject matter isn't it that actually divorce and not just divorce but separation is about parents adult parents making a decision about whether or not they are happy and of course whilst that's a decision that you know is often very rightfully made that the sort of casualties within that

decision making are the children and the wider family um so let's talk about as you've described the casualties when it comes to divorce how much do children understand in that moment you you talk to families you talk to children you talk to parents you're at the heart of all of this. How much do we as adults need to explain about the decision as they get older? Absolutely, as much as you can. And I use that word casualty as a vice because actually they don't have to be. I think that, you know, for many children who are going through watching their parents separating, divorce, what they want are explanations about why this is happening. And the key reason, and in my experience, why this can trip up is because parents don't communicate what's happening. They don't communicate the central bit of information that children need to hear,

which is that when we had you, we were in love. You know, you are a product of our relationship and that something has happened now which means that we as a couple are no longer feeling that we can be together in this way but we will forever be a parental couple now that's such a central message because what you're doing is you're looking after the sort of heart and mind of your children or child by saying we will actually never be separate because of you. So how do you explain to people in them because obviously it's an incredibly traumatic experience for everyone going through it and maybe communication is broken down in the first

place in the relationship so how do you advise people to be able to communicate with their child? I think it is about being honest and open and children aren't you know silly they will have seen that things don't feel good at home so that you're taking them to one side and saying you know we've had to think about you know our future our future is always going to be around you but our future isn't going to be with us living necessarily in the same household or being a couple in that way I think that what possibly can get missed is what the adults have to do in order to get to this point. I mean, actually, that's where the sort of fractured, tense relationships often occur. Because if you haven't had a conversation with a couple,

it's really difficult to then be forward facing with your children and give them a really transparent and robust explanation of why this decision is really difficult but you're doing it in both your own and that's the bit that's quite hard isn't it your own interests but in their interests and so it is difficult now what i'm going to say is that you know children remain children weighing into adult life. And in my experience, if these things aren't managed and nurtured along the way, adult children have as much difficulty with this as young children. So get talking to them when you can, if you can't write a multi, no doubt, multi-million selling album like Adele has done.

Now, she also mentioned in this interview that she's felt embarrassed about the divorce because because we've been trained as women to keep trying even the films that we watch uh whilst we've been growing up tell us that you know you've got to stay in this marriage regardless maybe the culture that we've been brought up in tells us this so how much of this is true and it's interesting that she used this word embarrassed is this something that you've come across i think there is embarrassment. I think that nobody goes into a relationship and then has children lightly. I think that's a big decision. So, you know, the intention at that point is to have a successful married life and children within that.

So, of course, I think there's pain, there's humiliation, there's a bit of shame. There's looking around you to see that other people seem to be managing it. Why aren't you? What makes you so different that you can't punish through this for your children? And I suppose that's the key line that I sort of felt was a bit ringing in my ears when, you know, that word humiliation or shame came across, that, you know, doing it for your children is often the mantra, is often what people are being told.

Your position as a parent is you exit the frame, you exit the picture, but actually you're very much in the picture. And I think that what I would say about what Adele's saying is that it's incredibly important for her to say, something about me felt as if it had changed. And myself and my son's father had to think about this in order that we could give him the best experience of us as adults

as people and as a parental couple and laverne i'm asking all our listeners today whether they've made a choice to put themselves first how difficult is it for women to put their happiness first and above the rest of the family? I mean, I can only speak for the sort of experiences that I've had with friends. I think it's incredibly difficult to admit that that's what you're doing, actually. I think it's so often coupled with so many other decisions about, you know, how much can I do this? What do I need to leave behind? So I think that, you know, Adele, who's sort of been the, you know,

sort of the novelist of many young people's lives, I suppose, through her lyrics. She really has, hasn't she? You know, she will be allowing quite a lot of people to make what is a crucial decision for them, not brave, but a crucial decision for them and their family about how they want to be as an adult, looking after, having their child and taking something that's really honest forward. And it sounds as if she's done so much thinking about it that, you know, for her, and I'd say

this to other parents, you know, being able to leave a relationship and not then sort of you know talk down or bad mouth the other person is so crucial I think she's actually setting a bit of a template for yes our own happiness is really important but you can't have it completely without having those worries about what your children might be feeling because breakups for all children I think are very difficult. Well, she sparked a very interesting conversation and the album's not even out yet. Laverne, thank you so much for joining me this morning. And you are getting in touch. Petra said, after 28 years married,

15 years caring for a chronically ill husband, on my 50th year, I took a sabbatical and went to India for a year learning yoga and living in an ashram for six months. Suffice to say, I came home altered. And Sarah says, last weekend, I split up with with a lovely man my first relationship after my divorce because it wasn't good for me in capital letters we wanted different things from our lives and whilst we had a great time on the child-free weekends i wanted more which he couldn't give me i'm heartbroken but no it's the right thing 84844 if you want to tell me about the choices you've made for yourself

and how hard they've been or anything you're going tell me about the choices you've made for yourself and how hard they've been or anything you're going to hear on the program today like celibacy. It's on the rise. More people are choosing to abstain from sex. Does that sound like a relief? What's to be gained and what is the impact? So many questions. Well I'm joined now by sex therapist Daniel Bennett and two women who've experienced with celibacy, Laura Kennedy, who's in her 30s and was celibate for six years, and Shirley Yanners, who's in her 60s and became celibate as part of a conscious change in lifestyle. Welcome to you all. Danielle, I want to come to you first just to get a quick definition. What is celibacy?

I think celibacy is actually making the choice not to have sex, not to be intimate or to have intimacy on some level. It can be as broad as just not sexual intercourse, but it also could be no kissing, no holding hands, intimacy in all its senses. So I think it's very much an individualistic choice of how far that goes and not having sex on your agenda, that you're concentrating on yourself, either religious reasons or just personal growth or just fixing yourself due to trauma. And have you seen an increase in the work that you do when you're talking to clients about people choosing to abstain? I think it's not so much choosing to abstain, it's the difference regarding avoidance or the choice. And I think that's what we see more. I think couples or individuals that are maybe avoiding sex, avoiding the intimacy, and it looks like celibacy, but is it really a choice or is it just something due to fear, due to performance, due to social anxiety or not engaging in an intimate relationship? Well, let's find out. We're going to talk to two women who

have chosen to do it. It's Laura and Shirley. Laura, I'm going to come to you first because you decided that you were going to become celibate in your 30s, six years. And most people, you know, that is the time when you are you know going for it why did you make the choice it was actually in my early 20s while I was a university student yeah I'm in my early 30s now and I'm not celibate uh which I'm I'm fine with too but uh yeah it was essentially a decision I made at a time when absolutely everybody was having sex. So it was motivated mostly by a need to re-evaluate relationships. It wasn't about sex for me, it was about figuring out the patterns in my life that I'd observed in relation to my choices in men

and trying to rewire what I found attractive and understand why I found sometimes undesirable men attractive or unkind men attractive. And it took just, it took work to figure that out. So I abstained while I did that work. What an interesting choice. The idea that you even thought about it, though, you know, I think most people would just go through life just making those decisions, those bad decisions, until hopefully one day they make the right decision. But it's really interesting that you even decided in your early 20s to step away from it to get clarity. Well, I suppose I grew up in slightly traumatic circumstances and I didn't have good male role models. So I understood quite quickly that I was recreating patterns I'd seen

in childhood. And I ended up continually in the same situation without understanding the choices I'd made to get myself there. So for me, celibacy was really just a symptom of a bigger decision to step away from that side of my life, do some therapy, think very carefully about it, and then go back in when I felt I was in a mentally healthier place to re-engage in intimate relationships. Was it hard? The celibacy was the easiest part, to be honest. It was much harder to address all of the really difficult sort of longstanding issues I had and to think carefully about really uncomfortable truths. I think it's quite easy if you find yourself in situations continually with men who don't

treat you particularly respectfully to blame men as a category. But the issue was me and the choices I was making. So the most uncomfortable aspect was facing that and dealing with it. Danielle, I'm going to bring you in to talk about what Laura's talking about. I mean, what an insightful decision to make. So there might be lots of our listeners thinking, oh, I made lots of bad decisions in my 20s. Should I have stepped away just to think about why I was doing that? Is celibacy what I should have turned to? I'm getting more and more clients that are doing that. I think they come sort of not understanding what's going on in their relationships,

why they keep making the same mistake, why they're in the same path, both men and women. And the idea with sex therapy, a lot of the times, which sounds counterintuitive, is to move away from having sex. You know, that's the first line of therapy is you stop having sex and you go back to a baseline of no sex, rebuilding that intimate relationship. But sometimes it's no sex at all. And trying to figure out what you want, what you're looking for, exactly like Laura said, is making those choices and coming to terms with the idea that it's me that's controlling a lot of this. It's me that's directing my life and I have

to do something different or I'm going to get the same results I'm going to bring Shirley in Shirley what what why did you decide to become celibate what led you to that decision well basically I can you hear me I can loud and clear hi well basically I'm obviously 65 now, and I've had a whole lifetime of, you know, experience and sexual experience. And my mother left me when I was eight. So I grew up very quickly. I had enormous amounts of confidence. And I think early on in my youth, I used sex to find somebody to take care of me, you know, to take away the responsibility of having to, you know, potentially grow up. And, you know, I just wanted somebody to take care of me. And then I decided to, so I was quite promiscuous when I was very young. I decided to, in my 20s,

focus on me and my career and, you know, building a life for me to be independent and I did that and I had some great relationships I had two brilliant marriages that I'm still friends with the ex-husbands but unfortunately in my um in my 30s when I married the man that I was going to have a family with I discovered I had got caught chlamydia when I was very young and obviously when I was quite promiscuous and this created a massive problem with my fallopian tubes I ended up in my late 40s with an eight pound fibroid in my uterus which I had to have I had to have serious surgery with and I basically almost died because I almost bled to death. So kind of for me, giving up sex was due to this medical problem. And it meant that for quite a long time, I didn't think about sex. I wasn't, you know, involved in relationships. I had a break from everything. And I just made a conscious decision

to completely change my lifestyle. I gave up drinking, smoking, chocolate, meat, sex, drugs, everything all in one go. To be fair, giving up cheese was a lot harder than giving up sex and becoming a vegan, I have to say. But that happened. And to be really honest with you, I suddenly started really thinking about me, what I wanted, my career. And basically, I've just been unbelievably happy ever since I gave it up. Well, that was going to be my next question. Like, what change have you seen in yourself?

Like, what is it, not having to think about sex, what has it done to your mentality and your self-esteem? Well, I've always been extremely confident, maybe too confident, but it's actually made me focus more on my body because obviously I'm 65 now. I don't want to get old and crockety. I want to be healthy. I want to be vibrant. I've got an amazing business now. I'm a social entrepreneur. I'm a life coach. It's made me find, sorry.

What about dating? Well, I think the thing is, I think when you're celibate, you can't really date, can you? Because if you go on a date, you're kind of embarking on some romance going a bit forward. And I'm not ready. You know, I don't really want to have sex again. I've got loads of male friends. I love men. But I, you know, if I'm ready to be sexual again, I'll start dating. But at the moment, I think having a date when your celibate's giving the wrong message to the man. Do you miss the intimacy? Not at all, no. I'm very intimate with myself. I'm absolutely intimate with myself, like Adele said. I've learnt about myself. I've learnt who I am and what I stand for. And I'm never lonely. I don't miss it. I've learnt who I am and what I stand for. And I'm never lonely.

I don't miss it. I genuinely don't miss it. Laura, what was the reaction from other people when you would tell them, because you were really young in your 20s, that you were celibate? Or if, you know, somebody approached you, what would you say to them?

Well, it really wasn't something I talked about. You know, I wouldn't go around. I really did. I'm a journalist and I wrote about celibacy, I think, for the first time about three years ago after, you know, I've been with my current partner for eight years. So it just wasn't something I discussed. I mean, I think friends and stuff were observing that I wasn't dating. But after a while, the celibacy became involuntary. And I think the voluntary nature of it is really important. So I realized that it had become a crutch. I had developed these

other issues. You know, I was embarrassed talking to men. I didn't know how to flirt. So I needed to go and fix that and address it. So I think they observed me dating then, and I had to kind of relearn all of those skills. People were supportive. It had an impact on your dating life when you wanted to get back out there. Oh gosh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I sort of disengaged from relationships so young that there were certain interpersonal skills when it came to talking to men or even basic flirting. I hadn't learned yet. So I was learning those, you know, in my mid-twenties, which was certainly weird and uncomfortable and led to loads of hilarious and embarrassing scenarios. But I picked it up eventually and it was okay. We've got messages coming in from people.

Someone anonymous says, I'm 61. I've been married for 41 years. My marriage has been a celibate one since my husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer several years ago and became impotent after treatment. I love my husband dearly. He's my soulmate, but there isn't a day that I don't miss the warmth of a loving sexual relationship, and it isn't something that we can talk about either. Danielle, you must have come across this. Yes, I mean, that's something that we see quite often, unfortunately,

due to medical reasons, erectile issues cancer heart conditions that one person is put into this celibacy role uh like i said it's whether celibacy to me is something that you choose and when it's it's not your choice it makes a very difficult relationship but we try to be supportive to our partners and like we said, maybe a little bit minimize our needs. And that happens a lot. But it can be either partner. Women go celibate and men are sitting around saying we haven't had sex for 10 years. And I would like a loving relationship as well as the other way around. It's something that's very, very common, unfortunately.

Well, Danielle, Laura and Shelley, thank you so much for joining me and speaking so openly about it this morning. We've had lots of messages coming in. Someone here has said, loads of people don't have sex for loads of different reasons. If I never had sex again, so what?

But if you told me I could never eat cake again, now that would break me. 84844 is the number to text. Now, Chinaza Onyeche has always dreamed of becoming a filmmaker, but she says, like other children from a Nigerian background, she was encouraged to take up a more traditional career like law, medicine or engineering. But she didn't.

And now she's one step closer to that filmmaking dream after being awarded the Met Film School's first Black Student of Talent Scholarship. The scholarship covers full tuition fees for a year and could be worth around £50,000 depending on the course. Chinaza, congratulations. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much, Anita. What does the scholarship mean to you?

It means so much. As a lot of people may know, private universities are extremely expensive and I don't come from a super wealthy background, so I could not have afforded it at this current time in my life. So I really appreciate it. And I've always wanted this opportunity to learn from experts in their field who are still currently working in the field, who have the industry connections. So it's a dream come true.

Yes. Industry connections, getting in there, getting your foot in the door. How hard have you found it so far trying to get in there? So for the past four years, I've been freelancing, as well as sometimes working full time. And it's been extremely difficult because for the most part, I've been self taught. And there's only so much that you can teach yourself. You are in some ways limited to what you know or what the resources that you have right in front of you. And I don't have any close family members who work in the industry. So I was at a disadvantage in that way. So I'm really fortunate to have this opportunity. Yeah, you, I mean, yes, absolutely. What an opportunity. And we're talking today about people prioritising themselves

and making choices to pursue what they want to do. And, you know, I mentioned in the opener there that you're from a Nigerian family, then there was huge expectation on you to go and do something more traditional. And you did as well, didn't you? I did, yeah. So, well, my journey has been quite an interesting one

because initially I was trying to still kind of appease my parents' expectations of me. When I started my A-levels, I was actually studying the three sciences, biology, chemistry and physics. And then for my fourth A-level, I chose history because I still had that part of me that loved writing and reading. And I didn't do so well in the sciences. I've got two E's and a U. And on the other side, I've got a B in the history. So that was a clear indication to me that I was always meant to do the arts. And I took that as a sign and I switched subjects and didn't look back. Now, as someone who wants to go and work in, you know,

in things that we see on screen in film and television, what don't you see at the moment that you'd like to see more of? That you want to pursue? From my perspective as a black woman, I'd like to see more representation of black stories that aren't about our trauma. I think a lot of the stories that are in the major blockbuster films are usually around the same issues as slavery

or civil rights and are very reflective of the curriculum that we have even in the UK, the history curriculum that's taught in schools. It's very much so focused on the American story of black history, I use, well, focusing specifically on slavery and civil rights movement and not so much about black British history. So I'd like to see a more,

a more representative focus on what our lives actually are like. The stories of love, of joy and of happiness that are very much there um but just need to be told and you're being very proactive because um you you you are a whiz because you won a scholarship uh for two thousand pounds uh you were awarded a TEDx um grant and that's for your initiative called daughter daughter's house tell me about daughter house productions yes so um I started up in 2017.

It's an initiative to help young female creatives from the black community to actualise their ideas. And essentially, it's a collaborative network where we work together on the ideas that we have. I think a lot of us in the community tend to wait for big opportunities from those people who are working in the industry. Whereas I believe it's so much more important to network across with the people around you. I feel like everybody knows someone who's interested in maybe hair and beauty that does makeup or someone that's really interested in fashion or photography. And if you all come together and basically share your skills, you can actually produce the ideas that you have in your head and that way bolster your CV by building your portfolio and increase the likelihood of gaining employment in the industry.

So that's what Daughter House is all about, funding those creative ideas that young female creatives may have but not have the resources to produce. How brilliant. You haven't even really, you're only just starting out and already you're thinking about how to bring other talented women into the industry who might not have access. But, you know, you creating this network, brilliant.

Getting some financial backing to help you, excellent. But what else is going to help you really? Because surely there needs to be something more to get more black, Asian and minority ethnic people into the film and TV industry. What's really going to help you get because surely it needs to be something more that to get more black asian minority ethnic people into the film and tv industry what's really going to help you get in there i think um i think for myself getting into the industry and establishing myself as a creative full-time um and also uh funding be very frank funding um And so at the moment, that's what I'm applying for with Daughter House, more funding opportunities and just the opportunity to meet more creatives. At the moment, I'm accepting any ideas that people might have. So if anybody's interested, they can reach out to us via the website.

Chinaza, you've managed to swerve what your parents wanted you to do. You've ditched the sciences. What's the dream? Where am I going to see you in 10 years time? Oh, who knows? Who knows tomorrow really? But I would love to, I'm currently studying an MA in post-production.

So I'd love to edit some of the biggest films out there. Marvel, Christopher Nolan, work on something with Beyonce and Parkwood Entertainment. That would be amazing. And also producing, continue producing ideas as well. Well, more power to you, Chinaza. Congratulations once again. And we look forward to welcoming you back onto Woman's Hour in years to come

to talk about your amazing projects. That would be amazing. Thank you so much, Anita. Thank you. 84844 is the number to text. And you are getting in touch saying, I'm listening with my sister about celibacy. We are both virgins and we were married in our 40s.

Why? For us, this is a faith issue. We're both Christians. Also, how wonderful to fumble and tumble with someone to whom you are committed and who will stay with you as you become used to each other. It's also a health issue. How many times has the doctor asked how many sexual partners I've had? When I answer, the doctor replies,

Oh, you've almost no risk of various cancers and STDs. And someone else said, been voluntarily celibate for two and a half years, never been happier. Now, yesterday we celebrated the 75th anniversary of BBC Woman's Hour, and I think we're looking quite good on it, even if I do say so myself. To mark the occasion, we shared the findings of a specially commissioned poll that set out to capture how equal women feel in their lives today. We spoke to a panel of experts, the author Jeanette Winterson, the founder of Everyday Sexism Project, Laura Bates, and writer and commentator Inaya Folloran-Iman.

And we also spoke to 104-year-old Diana Gayford, who worked on the very first Woman's Hour broadcast on the 7th of October 1946. If you missed our celebration show yesterday, you can catch up with it and any others you may have missed via BBC Sounds. And on Monday, this is where it gets exciting. It's your chance to have your say, to follow up on the findings of our poll. So we're inviting you to talk to us. Do you think we're making progress or if nothing's changed? Do you feel the equality the law says we have matches up to to change? How is your life compared to that of your mothers or your grandmothers? We would love to hear from you. Email us via our website. Do leave us your number so we can call you back. The lines will be open at 8am on Monday morning and you

might be on the radio. Well, someone who is about to be on the radio is Susan Ogilvie. She's a botanical artist and a specialist in knowledge in birds' nests, a fascination she developed later in life in her 70s after discovering a chaffinch nest in her garden in Somerset a few years ago. Since then, she's painted over 50 birds' nests from life and they all feature in her new book, Nests, which truly is a rare gem in a genre that's been dominated by male authors

and has a surprising lack of books on British and European birds. Welcome to the programme. Susan, it is a beautiful book. I've got it in the studio with me. It's so serene and so stunning to look at. Where did the idea from this book come from? Where did it start? Hello, thank you for having me. It started really quite slowly. I had found this chaffinch nest and painted it and I painted two or three other nests in previous years for exhibitions. When I found the chaffinch nest it was so different to the nests I

had painted before that I was amazed and my eyes were opened really to the diversity of the architecture of birds nests and then I found another nest and a friend bought me a nest and so it went on and I realised more and more how diverse the architecture was and how I became more and more fascinated. We must make clear because you're not just picking up nests these are nests that have been abandoned or you're finding them yes how how what's the process of finding them yes it's crucial that it's it's um you must never never disturb nesting birds and what did you discover about birds' nests whilst you were painting them?

I discovered an enormous variety of materials, far more than I had realised. And instead of them being just the sort of brown twiggy things one thinks of, you know, they can be made with moss, cobwebs, huge number of cobwebs, lichen, all sorts of things. But the architecture, each species follows its own architecture but uses the materials of its surroundings. So you can have a blackbird nest built in one end of the country and a blackbird nest built in the other end of the country.

And the architect will be the same, the size of the cup, the use of mud, all these things will be the same. But the vegetation that's used will be that of its locality, which therefore makes it camouflage as well. So if it's in a city, it can pick up something that we might use? Absolutely, absolutely. And one of the nests in the book is a goldfinch nest. And as I painted it, I thought, this isn't natural stuff.

And I looked more closely at it and realised it's mostly upholstery materials. So the chaffage nest on the previous page is very much one of Somerset with baler twine and all sorts of things in it. And the one from London has got chair stuffing and coir and things like that. Very resourceful. Exactly. There's a wonderful part of the book where you mention something called a brood patch. I'll let you explain what a brood patch is. I don't know very much about brood patches.

I'm not an expert on birds. But in order to improve the contact and therefore the warmth in incubation, a lot of birds develop this brood patch where the feathers of the lower soft part of the belly either fall out or are plucked out. And that means that when the bird then sits on the eggs, it gets the skin directly onto the eggs, which increases the warmth. And some of the birds use those feathers, which are very soft, to line their nests. And the feathers regrow when the nesting season is over. I love that. That's the nest I'd want to be in, the one with the cosy feathers dotted around.

It is really beautiful. It's intricate. There's something really, it's got a very serene quality, just looking at the paintings, really very detailed. What's the process how i mean how long does it take you to to paint one of these it takes anything from i think probably the smallest nest might be about three days and the biggest ones might be more like three weeks um and the process starts with looking You have to look at it very hard. Then I measure it with a pair of calipers or dividers and I make marks on the paper so that I know that it's going to be life-size and I'm going to get the size right.

And during the process of that, we usually spot one or two landmark pieces of a particular tree or feather or whatever it is. And I start there and then I work around it and then I put in the landmark, more landmark pieces. And in the end, it gels into the nest. And your illustrations are more useful to a botanist than a photograph. Is that right? And why? Well, I wouldn't say mine in particular, but a lot of botanists do like to use botanical paintings and drawings because they find that there's more clarity to them, perhaps, than a photograph. I don't quite know why it is. It's a bit of a puzzle.

But that is the case. And there are places like Kew who still employ full-time botanical artists to record their specimens. Yeah, they really are joyful too. I've seen the exhibition at Kew of some very beautiful botanical illustrations and they really are otherworldly, even though they are of our world. And have you figured out how they do it, where they begin? How does a bird begin to build a nest? That remains a puzzle. And as I painted each nest, you know, I would wonder,

where was the first piece? How did you start? And how, you know, we can hold one thing in place while we add another thing. I would wonder, where was the first piece? How did you start? We can hold one thing in place while we add another thing, whatever it is we're making. Well, a bird can't do that. It's got a beak, and that's it. It has to put the twig in place, go off and find another,

and come back and hope that first twig is still there. And so in the end, I decided rather late in the day, I decided I'd have a go at making a nest myself to see if I could work out how it was done and of course there were several false starts I may only allowed myself to do it with one hand but eventually I realized that a piece of grass would sit on the previous piece of grass once i got two staying put then you could add the third and very quickly it built up its own strength and its own sort of integrity and then you could go on adding to it quite well it was getting those first one or two to stay together that was the trick well susan the book is an absolute delight um thank you so much for speaking to me about it it's called nests it's by sus Ogilvie. And I bet lots of people are inspired to try and build their own nest this weekend.

Send us a photograph if you manage it. Now, recently, during an interview with Police Minister Kit Malthouse after Sabina Nessa was murdered, we were contacted by a listener called Amanda, who put a question to the minister to ask why we in England and Wales don't do what the Europeans do and call the murder of women femicide. It's not a new term, but one that's used intermittently. And we started to consider whether the use of the word femicide was important given the levels of violence against women that are taking place. So does using gender neutral terms such as homicide and murder systematically ignore targeted violence against

women? Should femicide be seen as a separate category? If women are being killed specifically because they're women, does that need to be recognised? Do motives matter? To answer or maybe explore these questions, I'm joined by Karen Ignala-Smith, co-founder of Femicide Census and chief exec of NIA, a charity that runs services for women and girls who've been subjected to sexual and domestic violence and abuse. Karen, very good morning. Let's make it clear, what does femicide make clear? What does the word define that the other words don't?

It's important to understand that femicide isn't just homicide of women. It's about how and why women are killed and how this is different to the circumstances in which men are killed and understanding that is a really important step to take to ending men's violence against women. So addressing gender motivated violence against women start it has to start with recognizing the fact that it is gender motivated well i'd say it was motivated by sex inequality and sex difference sex differences um i think it's important that we don't use the word gender when we when we mean sex because gender is something different so i think it it's motivated by misogyny and different power between women and men and sex inequality.

So tell me about Femicide Census and what you're looking to do. Are you looking to change this legally? We are not looking for femicide to be listed as a separate crime. We are looking to have, we're looking for a push so that we understand how many women are killed by men in our society and the circumstances that that's done. We're looking to make our understanding of men's fatal violence against women broader than domestic homicide, broader than stranger killings. For example, it's about 8% of women a year are killed by a stranger, but we see almost the same amount of women every year killed by a son, yet that gets very little attention and there are very little resources put into looking at why men are killing their mothers, for example.

So it's about looking at what's going on in our society and what we need to change. And we've been talking about this a lot over the last few weeks. And the government, as you know, produced a tackling violence against women and girls strategy in July this year. Kit Malthouse referred to it when she was on Woman's Hour. Was that comprehensive enough in your view? Did it go far enough?

No, no, it never does. One of the problems is I think most governments tend to focus their energy on winning votes and what can be measured to have a quick impact. And if we're looking at femicide and men's violence against women, we need to be making changes now that won't show for generations. So firstly, that that strategy didn't even name femicide. It didn't have a special section addressing men's fatal violence against women.

And the measures weren't broad, broad enough. If we're serious about tackling men's violence against women we need to take our action on five different levels yeah we need to look at do you want sorry we need to look at individuals and what's going on in their heads what makes you know what makes um psychopaths sex psychopathy um psychopathy sorry um how how, what has made some men violent, abusive, controlling? We need to look at interactions between people, between couples, but also in families and socialisation and peer groups. We need to look at institutions. We need to look at the police, the law, social services, education and address sexism and misogyny there, making sure that the state does what it's

supposed to do. And then we need to look at sex inequality, structural sex inequality in society. And then finally, we also need to look at culture. How is the conducive context for men's violence against women reproduced and created? What is the role of sexual stereotypes? What about socially constructed gender? What about the objectification and the sexual objectification of women? Pornography and prostitution. For example, the countries in the world with the lower levels of femicide happen to be also those where prostitution is abolished.

That gives a very clear message about the status of women and women's purposes. And I don't think that's a coincidence. What countries are those? Nordic countries tend to have the lowest low suicide rates. I mean, this is a conversation that is so rife. We are having it on Woman's Hour every day. We are having it with our girlfriends.

We are talking to our mothers. These are conversations that are happening around the country. And I was looking through the paper this morning, Karen, and I'm like in The Guardian, page 18. And I just opened it up this morning, glancing through. And we've got a call for inquiry into Dubai rulers hacking of ex-wife's phone. So we've got someone hacking into his phone.

We've got medical student who threw acid on ex-girlfriend jailed for 15 years. We've got men at the centre of fight against misogyny, says Sturgeon. We've got police officer denies raping woman not in fit state to consent. That's just two pages in the middle of our papers. And this is quite, especially with all the conversations going on right now, it's quite triggering to open the paper and see that. Yes, but it is important that we see it and it's important that we talk about it in context and and all together rather than in isolation we need to start asking the big question about

questions about why is this going on and how is it connected and and what do we need to do to make a difference so i'm really pleased i'm sorry that it's triggering for some people. But if we don't talk about this, we will never solve it. And you're currently studying your PhD and it's in men and violence against women. And you say that there's different patterns to men killing women than the other way around. What do you mean? Can you explain what they are? I think one of the most important things is the role of intimate partner homicide in those killings. Most men are killed by somebody they know, but it tends to be a friend or associate. When it comes to women, about 62% of women are killed by intimate partners or former intimate partners. So that's one one

big difference but another critical difference even when we look at say domestic homicides is those follow different patterns anyway so when a man kills a woman he tends to have been abusing her for months or years before some of them kill up kill female partners a lot quickly but men but some men do it after 22 years or 20 you know 30 years of being together so men men tend to kill women after they've been abusing them when women kill men that they're in a relationship with it tends to be when the man has been abusing the woman he's he's usually the primary perpetrator and you you see that you know you you see that pattern time and time again so even if you address men's violence against women you will actually reduce women killing men because that

tends to be the motivation and I'm not saying always and I'm not saying women can't be abusive or controlling what I'm saying is that's the general tendency. Are you optimistic that change can happen? I'm optimistic that change can happen. Whether I'm optimistic about whether change will happen is a different question because I just don't think there's a political will. And so how do you put pressure on to make that political will happen? Continuing having these conversations responding to government calls for um about their about their strategies there was a massive

response to the strategy for for the current government um strategy to tackle men's violence against women but they still got it wrong When your politicians are knocking on your door, talk to them about men's violence against women. Make it a vote-winning issue. Make it something that it's very clear that we as a society don't accept as normal or inevitable and that we expect to see action from the state. Karen, thank you so much for speaking me to this morning. 84844 is the number to text and your messages are coming through about various things we've

been talking about today. Jesse has said, sometimes birds put cigarette butts in their nests and this helps repel parasites. Nests I have near us often have hair, tail and body from our pony in and fleece from the sheep as well as moss. And Sue has said, birds' nests. Interesting about birds using their local environment. I remember my husband mentioning the birds' nests on the factory site

he worked at being made of cable ties. Like I said, they're very resourceful. Now we have a real treat. Abby Sampert describes herself as a weird, warbling, electric vina player. She trained as a dentist and then appeared on The Voice in 2013, where she wowed the judges with her unique style of singing between Western pop and Indian classical. She also performs with the orchestral Galali Project,

modernising old Sufi music. And she joins me now, actually in the studio. First of all, welcome. You should have won The Voice, just putting that out there. Weird, warbling, electric Wiener player. Go on, explain. What's a Wiener? I suppose you have to start with a Wiener.

Okay, so a Wiener is similar to a sitar. It's sort of its older cousin. It's got four strings and you don't play it like a guitar. You don't play chords on it. You play melodies on it like the sitar does. And what introduced you to it? What brought you into music? So probably around seven or eight, my dad was obsessed with

music as was his father but I don't think my dad was quite so musical so he wanted to put that in me. So I started learning Indian classical veena, singing dance, everything from probably the age of seven or eight, as soon as I could pick it up. And then it's evolved from there, really. And then we're talking about pursuing our dreams, making choices for ourselves.

I was talking to the young filmmaker who won the Chinaza, who won the scholarship to go to the Met Film School. And she was saying how she had to kind of go against her Nigerian parents' wishes to pursue her dream. So how about you? I introduced you as the Vina player slash singer slash dentist. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, I suppose being Asian is quite normal, quite well known that you're pressured into doing, you know, things like, well, I think they call it the big five, like medicine, law, engineering, all sorts of things. So, yeah, my mother really wanted me to become a doctor.

And so there was that part of me that, you know, just culturally seeing everybody around me studying so hard, I felt the pressure of also you know performing well academically so um but music was always my natural gift it was something that I just didn't have to well I think it's my natural gift um but um it is your natural gift it is you absolutely is um it was something I just didn't really feel like I needed to work very hard at it just came naturally to me um and my dad saw that and really pushed me in that so and i'm delighted he did because um we've got some should we let's listen to some of your amazing music this

is um this is called this is little girl So beautiful, Abi. Thank you. That's you playing the... Electric Vina. The Electric Vina. You can hear the electric. It's got rock and roll. That's a love letter to your younger self, is it?

Yeah, it is. I think probably I've become the most free being in my 30s and just expressing myself in however way I want, so not being boxed in. But also being a woman in your 30s, having a lot of different pressures around where your life is going and making choices. I wrote this just sort of as a feeling like, you know,

the fear of losing my younger self and you know my carefree self and having to make these decisions and also just not wanting to ever lose that part of me and where do you find the time to do everything like when do you how much time do you give to you know the day job and how much time do you give to the music um so I'm extremely fortunate to be able to not give too much time to the day job and how much time do you give to the music um so I'm extremely fortunate to be able to not give too much time to the day job because I think for me if I don't do music enough it I I don't sort of mentally do very well so for me it has to have been this balance of you know um doing music as well as um surviving as an independent artist. But it's what keeps me alive. It's what keeps me breathing and being able to create and always try and do something new

and bring in all my different parts of my music personality. So growing up in London, I was introduced to lots of different types of music, obviously Western pop and all those influences, as well as learning Indian classical music and then because I mean South Indian classical music is a little bit different to North Indian classical music um but because I live in London I had sort of Punjabi friends Gujarati friends um I was exposed to all this other type of music and now you sing Qawwali's

as well explain to people what Qawwali is if if you well. Explain to people what a Qawwali is if people don't know. So Qawwali is, it's Sufi music. It can be sometimes Islamic devotional music, but it can be love songs, mixed into guzzles, things like that. It usually comprises of a lead singer and then chorus singers, tabla, dharma and harmoniumium that's traditionally what it is um and why it's so special it's the lead singer sings a line and the chorus singers sing it back to him um and there's something just so powerful about so many people whether it's so many people dancing so many people singing when lots of people come together and do the same thing in unison it's just incredibly powerful so let's have we've got more music i'm really pleased that we're going to play this so what are we going to hear we're going to play

yeah Oh, it's bringing joy to my heart. I'm a huge Cavalli fan. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, for anybody who's thinking of a Cavalli singer, they might know. Yes, of course. And that's the Orchestral Cavalli Project. It's you, music producer and artist Rushal, and tabla player Amritit amrit duffer yes

the three of you together kawali is usually performed by male groups right so how unusual are you and also that's not your first language you're not singing a language that you know that's not my first language or um or second or third yeah no exactly um uh the language spoken at home is tamil um i'm originally i'm sri lankan. But growing up in London, I was, you know, always mixing with Punjabi friends, learning Punjabi, Gujarati, you know, Urdu, everything. So my tabla player, Amrit Duffer, I've known him for, gosh, more than half my life.

And he was the one that, you know, showed me Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, and I just, I fell in love. And I suppose being from South Asia, once you start meeting lots of different South Asian people, you realise you have a lot of similarities in your cultures and, you know, just different ways of expressing it. It's like your mum and dad wanted you to be a doctor too. Yeah, mine too.

But also musically. So, yeah, he just sort of, every time I was to sing something, I'd learn the meanings and really understand what I'm doing. But it's just, it's so beautiful to perform. Abi, where can people find your music if they just want to listen to more and more and more? Oh, so we're on YouTube, Instagram,

Abisampa or Rushal Music, Tabla Dharma for Amrit. Lots of different tags. Next time, will you bring your electric vina with you? I definitely will. Thank you so much. And thank you to everybody who's been getting in touch. We're going to leave you with a bit of a message from Helen who says, four years ago

I retired from my role, 33 years as church minister to go and live by the sea and try and be a writer. This process began with separation, then divorce. It's not been straightforward and I have quite often wondered if I made the right decision, but we'll have to live with the decisions we make. It was also difficult to turn my back on a lifetime of wanting to do good and be useful to others in order to make this change which is all about me

and my happiness. Have a very happy weekend. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What's the link between poisoned underpants? They wanted something that rubs against your skin. A plot to kill Nelson Mandela. To find a poison that would cause cancer and have him die shortly afterwards. And the deadly riots in South Africa this year. I'm Andrew Harding with a tale of politics and paranoia. Some people wanted me dead. Oh, and the link is Jacob Zuma, South Africa's former president. And indeed, it was quite a strong poison.

That's Poison from BBC Radio 4. To listen to all five episodes, just search for Seriously on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.