Woman's Hour - My Best Day - Diane Barker, Victims' commissioner Claire Waxman, Playwright Tanika Gupta

Episode Date: September 13, 2019

We asked you to get in touch and send us a picture that somehow captured you at your best. Today Diane Barker tells us about a very special picture that captures an adventure in Eastern Tibet. We hear the concerns of midwifes about the role they are having to play in delivering the government policy of charging migrant women for maternity care. The London Victims Commissioner and stalking victim, Claire Waxman on why she's written to the Ministry of Justice to ask them to change way compensation is paid. And the playwright Tanika Gupta talks about her latest project an adaptation of Ibsen’s classic play, A Doll’s House. Presenter; Jenni Murray Producer; Beverley Purcell Guest; Claire Waxman Guest; Tanika Gupta Guest; Rosalind Bragg Guest; Clare Livingstone Guest; Corinne Clarkson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Friday the 13th of September. In 2017, the NHS was required to charge the cost of treatment to people who are not UK residents. The Royal College of Midwives says it shouldn't apply to maternity care why in the series where we asked you for a picture of your best day Diane Barker on her trip to Tibet and a new version of Epson's a doll's house why has Tanika Gupta set the story of a wife who in 1879 leaves her husband and children not in Norway but in Calcutta. Earlier this month, Claire Waxman, the London Victims Commissioner,

wrote a letter to the Ministry of Justice complaining about the length of time it takes for a victim to receive compensation ordered to pay in a court of law. She quoted her own case of being awarded £5,000 in 2005 and she has only received sporadic amounts of £15,000 to £100,000. She's asking for a new system which will ensure the money is paid straight away. What scheme is she proposing? Well I want the Ministry of Justice to look at the scheme that is actually happening in the Netherlands, which they introduced in 2011, where they pay the victims up front, and then they go and retrieve the funds from the offender. And that means that that victim is then freed, they're allowed to get on with their life and recover, as opposed to what we have here in

England, where victims are tied in, receiving amounts sporadically over many years connecting them to their offender which really prevents them from recovering fully. Now you as I said have personal experience of this what happened in your experience of stalking? So I mean the stalking went on for well over a decade I was in and out of court for that amount of time as well and the first two times we went to court, he was, as part of his sentence, ordered to pay court awarded compensation. The first time, it was the amount of three and a half thousand. And the second time, it was down to the courts, the HMCTS, to chase that payment. They do have powers. They can issue warrants for arrest or issue to seize property. And it was really their responsibility. But I don't think that they, well, they certainly didn't effectively enforce that order. But why? I mean, how was he allowed to get away with only paying dribs and drabs for 14 years?

Because it shows that there is unfortunately an ineffective system in place, that the courts clearly can't cope with enforcing these orders. So it really begs the question of whether these orders actually serve justice or whether it make a mockery of justice. I think they undermine justice. You know, we know we've got the recent figures from the MOJ and there's £89 million outstanding of compensation and they've written off over half a million. So that means that if someone as part of their sentence was awarded and had to pay compensation to that victim, it's likely that it was never paid or it's been written off. That's not justice. But then when we spoke to the ministry, they said they're doing everything they can, that new technology has now enabled the collection, they said, of an extra 37 million in the last two years. And they also say the government paid out 130 million to victims of violent and sexual crime last year.

Surely that's an improvement. Well, the figures that we've got certainly don't look like an improvement. We've looked at it on a trajectory from sort of 2015 onwards and the amount outstanding is actually rising year on year. So I can't say we've really seen

any positive effects from that new technology. What the government need to do, and I mean, they talked about it back in 2012, they were going to look at different models, and they recognised that victims weren't being paid quickly enough and the impact that was having on them. And they were going to look at reforming. Unfortunately, they haven't done that. What I'm trying to bring to their attention is

that it's not just my case, which is shocking enough, you know, taking 14 years, and the impact that that had on my life as part of the stalking as well. But it's also from so many other victims and survivors that I speak to. You know, I recently did a huge piece of work, looking at compliance with the Victims Code of Practice. So I, you know, interviewed, we interviewed over 2000 victims. And I did inquire about those who'd been ordered, who'd got court awarded compensation. And I would say the high those who'd got court-awarded compensation. And I would say the high majority of those cases had seen very little money as a result of that compensation. So we know it's not working in practice.

And the government really need to step up and do something about it. And it's often not a huge amount of money. No, I think mine is actually quite... We're not talking millions of pounds. No, no. And I think mine's quite a substantial amount. I think when I've spoken to a lot of victims, they're only talking sort of 500 pounds, maybe maximum 1,000. But it's what it means.

It's not necessarily about the money. It's a form of reparation. You know, it's a form of justice. So, and I know that victims do value that sometimes, not in all cases. I mean, I'm really pushing that in cases where there is identified fixation of obsessions, such as stalking, domestic violence, coercive control, these orders should never be given or at least consult with the victims first. Because what these orders are doing are creating an unnecessary tie between that very vulnerable victim and that person who has a fixation with that victim.

And you're tying them into an ongoing relationship for many years, which creates risks. What's it like for you personally to have that continuing connection with him? Well, it's very difficult to move on. And I'm sure the same from his perspective. You know, he has an obsession of fixation, being forced to pay me. Well, if he'd paid it straight away, he wouldn't be in this situation. But because he's been allowed to abuse that process and go on for years and years, it means he's not able to fully recover and neither am I. So it keeps us tied in, unfortunately, which means as much as I have moved on and want to move on, you know, when you get these sporadic payments monthly,

you see it come up, even though it's from HMCTS. It's a trigger and it's a reminder. HMCTS. That's the court. How does the money actually come to you on the rare occasions? Yes, so the offender will pay the courts and then the courts pay the victim. So it used to be checks, used to receive checks in the post. Over the last few years, it's changed now. So it used to be cheques, you used to receive cheques in the post.

Over the last few years it's changed now, so they make payments straight into your bank. But it's still, you know, one sees it coming in every so often and it says HMCTS and you know, you know, that starts to trigger everything for you. So it's not healthy, it's not a good way of allowing victims, you know, it prevents them really from full recovery. How likely is the ministry to accept the advice that you've given? In the current state? I don't know. We are pushing.

I mean, the government brought in a year ago their victim strategy, cross-government victim strategy. And in it is a real commitment to try and improve the experience of victims going through the criminal justice system. And so this is part of that. So they do recognise there's work needed in this area. So I do hope they'll take it seriously and look at the different options available, because the current option really isn't working. It's failing victims in delivering justice to them and also as a form of reparation. And you said earlier that it may create a risk. How safe do you feel from your stalker now? Unfortunately, as a stalking victim, I don't believe you can ever feel fully safe when it's gone on for so many years. It is always

something in the back of your mind. And that's why this mechanism of continual payments over years and years really creates that unnecessary link. And I think it's a risk as well because you are forcing that ongoing contact, even though it's indirect, to continue, which is a risk for that victim. And we've heard this morning terrible figures about the rise in domestic murder.

Absolutely. I mean, not that we get enough cases to court on domestic abuse, but if we do, you know, providing, creating that link between that offender and victim is very dangerous in these cases. So it's something that, you know, the judicial system and the judiciary really need to recognise and understand around these court-awarded compensation orders. Claire Waxman, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. Now in 2017, the government ordered the National Health Service to demand upfront payment from anyone needing treatment in hospitals who is not a UK citizen.

Care would still be free at the point of delivery, but the costs would then be pursued from the patient. At this week's Trades Union conference, the Royal College of Midwives made it their official policy to oppose all charging for maternity care. Their position is shared by the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and follows a report from Maternity Action which claims the charging policy is eroding trust in the profession. So how is a midwife's work affected by the fact

that there are charging officers on the wards? If I'm caring for a woman on the postnatal ward, I'm there protecting her space and her and the baby and maybe helping them breastfeed or just helping them really transition to that postpartum phase and transition to being a mother-baby pair. I protect them from all sorts of things. We have protective visitors times.

I try to keep that space as kind of nurturing as possible. And the overseas officer coming onto the ward to ask them questions about their residency status is unhelpful to my job and unhelpful to their care. And that happens. That happens. And I find that a real disruption of the bonding moment between the mother and the baby and creates an atmosphere of anxiety.

And again, affects her trust in the caregivers around her. You know, that's important that there's a trust between the midwife and the mother relationship. It's not just so that it's nice. It's important. Things like, for example, have they had miscarriages have they had terminations of pregnancy maybe they're not open about that in their family maybe their partner doesn't even know have they recently traveled to a country where there's tuberculosis what about sexual partners have they maybe had some other sexual partner that they're not being completely

there isn't sort of common knowledge it's really important for the midwife to know that and they're only ever going to tell us that kind of stuff if you've really gained a a trustful and nurturing relationship and i just feel that this that this added element of this anxiety around the documents will they be charged at all who can they trust you've done some damage to the relationship there i feel in such a way that that yeah that can have clinical impact if they're not open with us. Well I'm joined by Corrine Clarkson who's a midwife in a busy London hospital. Claire Livingston is the professional policy advisor for the Royal College of Midwives and Rosalind Bragg is the director of Maternity Action UK. Rosalind, how would you say the charging policy works practically

in maternity care? For women attending their antenatal appointments, they'll have an appointment with their midwife, their first appointment, called a booking appointment. And while processes vary across the trust, quite commonly in that appointment, women will be asked about their country that they were born in, what their immigration status is, how long they've been in the country.

And from that information, another staff member, an overseas visitor manager, will be able to pick them up as potentially chargeable and then assess them in more detail. What kind of sums of money are we talking about? The standard sums of money seem to be around £7,000 for a ordinary birth. If there's any more complications, then it's much higher. So caesarean section, for example, or if there's some problem with the baby and the child's in neonatal care, the more difficult the circumstances, the more expensive the invoice. And would the woman be expected to pay the whole lot? Oh, absolutely, yes. They're issued with invoices, be expected to pay the whole lot? Oh absolutely yes they're issued with

invoices often asked to pay part of them up front if not all of them up front and yes they're left with a debt. It's an extraordinarily difficult situation for destitute women who are the women we're most concerned about. They're struggling to pay for food and accommodation and yet they're getting these bills for thousands and thousands of pounds. Now Claire, you joined the BMA this week in opposing the policy. Why did you do that? We did that because our members have told us of their concerns. They are very worried. They're put in an invidious position really. They're bound by a professional code of conduct. The NMC, the Nursing and Midwifery Council, states that midwives have a duty of care and that they can only share information if public protection and safety needs override the duty of confidentiality. And these charging regulations are not about safety or public protection.

It's about recouping costs, which is nothing to do with midwifery care. But then again, you see, the government would say every taxpayer supports the health service, and so it's only right that overseas visitors contribute towards their treatment costs. But exemptions are in place to protect vulnerable people who receive care free of charge it's covered isn't it at this point in the delivery room and in maternity services midwives priority is the care of the woman and her unborn child and we know that black and minority ethnic women are at higher risk of poor outcomes for both mother and baby. So midwives are very concerned and their priority,

according to their professional code, is the priority of the people in their care. So you don't object to the charging in principle, but you object to the charging of women who are vulnerable? The system as it stands is inappropriate and it doesn't work and it puts midwife in an impossible position. Corinne, as somebody who is practising all the time, how would you say it affects the way you care for women? I think it causes a real erosion of trust between a woman and her midwives and carers. Women fear reporting to the Home Office. They fear accruing debts that they know they'll never be able to pay. Most of these women are not women that have flown into the country

and will fly out again. Most of these women are women who are here in vulnerable and precarious circumstances and are going to be remaining here but being deterred from coming to your midwife fearing accruing chargings presenting late these will increase the risks the clinical risks to that woman and it increases the workload for midwives as well in addressing those risks. Because our work is not just about the physical health. It's about a woman's mental health and social health and supporting that as well.

We're not able to do that in a system that requires us to be part of presenting her with an unpayable bill that will disadvantage her and her family over the long term. But Rosalind, I know your report is based on conversations with, I think, a small sample of midwives. How widespread can you assume the kind of concerns Corinne has expressed are? These are widespread concerns. In the report, we interviewed 15 midwives from 13 different trusts. We contacted midwives right across the country and we also worked with the Royal College of Midwives on this who are obviously in contact with thousands of midwives and what we found from those interviews was echoed by what we heard from the Royal College

of Midwives. So I think we're pretty clear that this is a common experience for midwives dealing with women who are charged for their care. Claire, representing the Royal College, what are you hearing from a wider spread of midwives? This is exactly what we're hearing, and we're actually producing guidance for midwives on this. And, you know, if any member finds themselves in a position where potentially they're at risk of sanction

for being in breach of these regulations, we will be representing them very robustly. The RCM, as you say, is providing guidance for the care of migrant women, but why do you describe it as an employee rights issue? Because the trusts are enforcing these regulations with staff who are working on recovering these costs which in itself we wonder whether the cost effectiveness of doing that when staff are being paid salaries and the amount of time and bureaucracy spent on recovering these costs and how much is actually raised from women that absolutely cannot afford to pay, it really seems to make no sense at all.

Why are you only doing the training, the providing of guidance now when the charging policy is two years old? Midwives have not been trained to do this. They don't want to do this. It is not part of their job or part of their role. We're providing the guidance in response to members' concerns. Would you say there's been any support or training for it, Corinne? I'm entirely self-taught on the subject through a need to become so through because of working with a group of

vulnerable migrant women. I have never seen any information or training offered to midwives in addressing this situation and myself and many of my colleagues find it a deeply distressing issue and one that is very difficult to resolve. We haven't been given the tools to understand it or assist women with this issue. So back to my question, if you are issuing guidelines now at the Royal College, why two years after it all started? Why didn't you do it at the beginning? Well Rosalind can probably give a fuller answer than I can but this charging has been in place for a number of years. It isn't a recent development but it's been incrementally coming in more tightly giving an obligation to trusts now to recover costs and so the pressure is on midwives to to provide this information.

But what kind of guidelines are you going to give them? We're not providing guidelines as such with Royal College of Midwives or a professional body and a trade union but we're providing guidance to help midwives in situations where they feel conflicted by their professional code and by the requirements of these regulations. Corinne, you wanted to add something there. Just really to say that although the NHS charging for maternity care situation has been around for quite a long time, it's really in the recent years that it's become more and more prominent in the work of midwives.

So I think we were able to function through it, but over the last few years, regulations and legislation has been scaled up and scaled up and scaled up to bring this to the point of being a very present issue in midwifery practice. So I think it's quite timely that we're now receiving some guidance on how to address that issue. What should that guidance be then, Rosalind? Well, I think we're concerned about the policy in its entirety and I think that's a concern that's shared by the Royal College of Midwives.

We think that policy should be suspended. But I think the particular issues that midwives face are balancing their obligations to their employer to obey the instructions from their employer and their ethical obligations to advocate for women, the obligations under policies to address health inequalities. So the guidance is really about those sorts of competing pressures on midwives. We don't want, no- one wants midwives to actually assess immigration

status. They're not immigration lawyers and shouldn't be. In a way, I think this guidance is about helping midwives to work in a very, very difficult environment where their ability to provide care is compromised by a set of rules which are at odds with their ethical and professional responsibilities. How confident would you be,ne to say no I can't do this because if I do this this woman is going to have real serious clinical damage? I think it's not very clear for midwives what they are able to do to support women that are faced with this issue. Are we able to say that we don't want a woman on the ward to be visited by people trying to offer her invoices and recoup NHS costs?

When we enter information about a woman into our computer systems, How is that being used? That's not clear. So I think there is a lot of confusion over what we do in our everyday practice from entering a woman's details and what information is shared and then what impact that will have. Claire, this week, obviously, the RCM called

for the suspension of charges but the Health Secretary announced extra funding for cost recovery. How much discussion is going on between policy makers and practitioners? That's a very good question but at the Trade Union Congress this

week other unions were also concerned and their members may well be equally affected by these regulations. So we feel it's very important to take a stand on this and we have. Our professional code is very clear, it's very explicit. But how much discussion is actually going on between policymakers and practitioners? Are you talking to each other? I'm sure that we will be. Claire Livingston, Corinne Clarkson, Rosalind Bragg,

thank you all very much indeed for being with us. And we would like to hear from you as well. What's your view on this one? You can send us a tweet or, of course, you can send us an email and we would like to hear from you, especially if you've had experience with this. Thank you all very much indeed. Still to come in today's programme,

a new interpretation of Ibsen's A Doll's House. What added to the politics of the play by Tanika Gupta setting it in India? And the serial, Episode 5 of Blackwater. Now, you will remember earlier in the week we looked at female science fiction authors. There's now an article on the Woman's Hour website with the authors and books that were mentioned. Could be perfect for some of your weekend reading.

You may also remember that last year we asked you to share some of your family secrets and six of you told us some of your surprising experiences. When Ellen finally came out to her mother, she could not have expected what her mother revealed. I think I said to her, have you had a relationship with a woman? And she just said yes. And I know I then asked, does anybody else know? She said, no, I will go to the grave with this and you are to tell nobody. The way she fixed her gaze on me when she said that,

I knew she was serious. It's one of those moments where you know when your mum says no to something, even as a child, there's that look. Jess was astonished to find out about her mother's affair. All of a sudden it was just like, boom, everything changed. It was like, oh my god, is this what real life is? Is this the way adults are supposed to be am i now an adult yeah i was just so angry just like why how like you have such a good life like with my dad and the things that you do and the the way we are, like, why would you want to have an affair? Christine's vague feelings about not belonging to her family led her to send off for her full birth certificate. What could I possibly find out that would be really awful?

And what I could possibly find out that would be really awful would be that Jean was my mother. The auntie that nobody liked. And when the birth certificate arrived, I opened it, not expecting to see anything like that. But there it was. Name of the mother, Jean Elsie Louise. Now we are hoping to hear more of your family secrets that you now maybe feel ready to discuss.

Maybe you were never told that an absent parent had tried to get in touch. Perhaps the fact that someone in your family took their own life was kept from you or you may not have been told that you were adopted. What happened when the secret came to light? You can get in touch with us as always through the Woman's Hour website by email or on Instagram or Twitter and we are at BBC Woman's Hour. Now throughout the week

we've been hearing from some of you who responded to our call for you to send us a picture that somehow captured you at your best. Hundreds of you got in touch with photos of your best day and so far we've heard from four of you. Today Diane Barker tells us about a picture that captures an adventure. The photo I have that I love very much was taken in 2001 in eastern Tibet in the province of Kham, and it shows four Tibetan men and me, and I'm leaning against a very nice white horse, which was actually my ride to the place where we're all standing. On the left of me, the middle one is called Sojal,

and then on the right side of me is Szong, a very, very tall camper guy. And I arrived in this place thanks to a Tibetan friend called Oga, who took me to her ancestral village. And I was in this area with my cameras in order to document nomad life and everything around it and the community. This was my self-imposed project and this project has gone on now for about 19 years on and off. This photograph was taken by Oga. I think she suggested it actually which is why I don't have my camera on me, because she's using it to photograph me.

So I don't usually like being photographed. I prefer to be behind the camera. We were traveling from Oga's village to Zongsa, where there's a big monastery in a larger community. And it was magical. Some of the places we went to people talked about seeing the local deity in the forest and it was an incredible sense of the numinous, the magical and it's very difficult to capture that in a photo but this just reminds me of how much I enjoyed being with all these people. This was probably, I think, around about lunchtime and we'd stopped to have some lunch. And Tibetans absolutely love picnics and things.

So what Ogre and I found when we were riding around was that any excuse for a snack or a stop. So this was probably about the third or fourth stop we'd made that day and we were going on to Zongsa and actually it was towards the end of our trip I was also feeling a little bit sad because I knew we would be leaving soon and in fact when we did leave Ogre and I both cried and so did Sir Joel and Cezanne. And when you look at yourself in this photo, what do you see? Well, Ogre persuaded me from almost the first day we arrived in her area. We arrived in Degue. She persuaded me to buy a camper tuber, which is the typical dress of a camper woman or was then. They're very big and loose. It's a bit like wearing a huge, loose coat that you wrap around yourself and then you wrap a belt around and you bunch the fabric over the belt and men

wear something very similar but theirs is shorter and the women's one reaches the ground and then generally they're worn over one shoulder and then you put the other sleeve in if it's cold or if it gets very hot you slip out out of the sleeve on the left-hand side and tie the sleeves at the back. So it's a very versatile garment. And I wore that garment from the time we arrived in Degue for a whole month. So it's probably pretty smelly by the time this photo was taken. Oga took the photo and I think she captured just how happy I was.

It was such a wonderful trip. In fact, on one of the journeys, I was so happy that I was singing, and I remember Sojal saying, I think she must be drunk. I've been to Tibet many times, but was the most magical I think. We spent a month on horseback nearly every day. The photo is like a sort of talisman of that experience. Diane Barker was talking to Laura Thomas and the music, by the way, is Nomad Song by Tenzin Toygyal. And of course you can see all the pictures on Twitter, Instagram,

and on the Woman's Hour website. Now Henrik Ibsen's A Doll's House is one of the most important plays to examine how terrible a marriage can become where a husband has all the rights and the wife has none. In the original, written in 1879, Nora finally leaves Torvald and her children for an independent life, slamming the door as she goes. It's not hard to imagine how shocking it was in its day. Well,

a new adaptation of Ibsen's original piece is now being performed at the Lyric Theatre in Hammersmith in London. It's written by Tanika Gupta. It's also set in 1879, but in Calcutta. Nora is now Nehru, here arriving home to her husband Tom. He's British, she's Indian. Tom, come see what I've bought. Bought? Mm-hmm. Have you been out buying jewels again? I never buy jewels. Don't be cruel, Tom.

Anyway, can't we be a bit more generous this year? Generous, yes. Reckless, no. We can be a little reckless, though. This is the first Christmas on your new salary and we're going to be very, very rich. Oh, listen to you. Very, very rich. In the new year we'll be more comfortable, granted. But it's still three months until I get paid. We can borrow money till then.

Nehru, come here. Now, let's imagine I did borrow a hundred rupees today, and then you spent it all over Christmas. And then on New Year's Day, a roof tile slipped and hit me on the head. No. And wounded me and killed me. Don't tempt the gods. But imagine that did happen.

What then? If such a dreadful thing happened, it wouldn't matter if I owed anything to anyone. I wouldn't care. But what about the people you were in debt to? Who cares about them? They're nobodies. Seriously, Niru. A home built on borrowing casts a long shadow on all who live within. No debt, no borrowing.

You and I have managed very well so far and we'll struggle along for the last few steps. Tanika, how did you come to adapt it? Well, I've always loved A Doll's House, and in fact, I originally wrote it as a radio play with Nadia Molinari on BBC Radio 3 with Indira Farmer in fact, playing Niru, and it seemed to work so seamlessly that, in fact,

it was Indira that told me I should write it for the stage and put it back to the way it was originally. And why did you set it in late 19th century, exactly the same time it was originally produced but in Calcutta well which of course we can't call Calcutta now it's Calcutta yes yes absolutely and basically I'm Bengali and my family are from Calcutta and so I know it really well so it's felt very obvious that if I was going to set it

in India that was where where I would set it but also because I was really interested in in shifting it to India but not not making it too much about Indian independence because so so it's actually set just before nationalism starts but I was I always like putting things in India because that is my heritage and I think because it is a story about extreme sexism of a husband and with his wife but it's like a boxing ring of a marriage so it just it was one of those things that I just wanted to try. How easy was it to keep as closely to Ibsen's plot as you have in this production well actually Ibsen's structure is so perfect I think you'd be mad to mess with it yes of course how would you dare well yeah but also that it's actually literally set in a house

and we never see her outside the house it is a doll's house and I think I did try and set a few things outside and it didn't work. So every time I tried to do something different, it felt like, no, just go back to the original. And I think I've only really invented a couple of scenes to slip in there, but tried to write it very much in the style of Ibsen. You make her very dependent on him at at the start yes i think more than i remember from the original she's almost giddy and you know she's given up her religion and become a christian for him why did you do that yes well i well if you the the excerpt that we just heard is actually completely absent it's it there's not there's there's no apart from the change of name and the change of, you know, where they are.

But certainly putting in an extra layer of race did mean that the character changes a little bit so that she's not just subjugated as a woman, but also she's looked down upon because of her race. So I think it does change a little bit. But it's also in the depiction, the way that the wonderful actor Anjana plays her. There has been some criticism that it rather over-emphasises the colonialism at the expense of a woman's rights. Would you accept that as a criticism of it? Well, I think it's interesting. If you know the play really well, you kind of sit back and go, wow, what's all this colonialism stuff coming in? But actually, the original play is so grounded in feminism,

even though Ibsen wasn't quite so sure about it himself, that what I've done is I've just put an extra layer in. And so I think it's quite an interesting idea that maybe race is more apparent in this adaptation, but actually it's kind of equal. So there's still all the same things you know helmer will doesn't want her to eat sweets so in in the original it's macaroons and mine's mine it's jalebi's he wants to dress a certain way to talk a certain way

that's all absolutely there but on but the other layer is that actually he he exoticizes her where do your sympathies lie Nora Nehru does make a mistake for the very best intentions and Torvald Tom is angry and then forgiving where are your sympathies well I think all the way through the rehearsal period with the director, Rachel O'Riordan, we didn't want to make Helmer too much of a beast because actually in the original, right from the beginning, you think a modern audience would think, what is she still doing with him? And so really it was about humanising him so that you see a real marriage and real relationships

so that he does veer between the charming man, the loving husband, and then being absolutely beastly. And I think that's real. How shocking is it, even now, would you say, that she chooses to leave her children as well as her husband? Well, I think that's why it's so so resonant because we still i mean leaving him is not such a not such a big thing because actually when she does leave him at the end we all breathe a huge sigh of relief but the problem is that she leaves

the children behind and she says that she needs to to be herself and to learn to be herself and to learn to know what she wants to do in her life. So she does leave those children behind. And that is still shocking, but it's a choice. And it's why not? Now, interestingly, as I said in the introduction, in Ibsen's version, or every production of it that I've seen, and I have seen many, as she leaves, she slams the door.

Yes. And that's it. In your production, the door isn't slammed at the end. It's left partly open. Yes. Slightly ajar. Yes. Well, that was very much the director's choice.

And we talked about this quite a lot. And I think basically it was about trying to bring some hope as well so that it's not completely slammed but also to because it's also about colonialism to say actually there's a there's a there's a there's another story here and this will go on and then we'll hopefully you know maybe maybe helma will will actually learn something from this experience that it's not just shut the door's not just shut and slammed also we want to try and do something different. And one always wants to imagine what will happen to her. Yes.

What, in your mind, happens to her? Well, I did quite a lot of research into Indian women in the 19th century, particularly in Calcutta. I literally just concentrated in the British Library and looking up Indian women. And there were an awful lot of very successful doctors, lawyers, accountants, you know, big thinkers, philosophers. And in a sense, these are hidden histories. I mean, it did make me think, gosh, I'd like to write about these women as well in the future

because we never hear about them. We only ever hear about the male politicians. But actually, there were many, many. I think the first lawyer was a woman called Cornelia Sarabji, and she was something like the 1890s. So, you know, Nero does have hope, and she's educated, so she may actually go on and do something wonderful. All right, the next thing you do is Nero out of Doll's house.

OK, that's going to be the next play. Just one other question. Why do you suppose there are so many revivals and adaptations of Ibsen now, this kind of return to the classics? Yes, it's interesting. But I think what's fascinating about all these revivals is that they're mainly done by women now,

whereas before I think a lot of the revivals were always written by men. And I've always said it's interesting to revisit these classics with a woman's point of view because it's about who's holding the pen and who's telling the story. But he held the pen. You said earlier you didn't think he was certain about whether she did the writing. What do you think now? No, no.

He said that he wasn't so sure that he was in those days writing about women's rights. I mean, obviously, the word feminist wasn't around then. But he actually kind of tried to disassociate himself from actually writing. But when you look at all his work, it's all about women. And his heroines are just always very strong, single-minded women. So whether or not he liked it or owned up to it, he was. He was writing about women's rights.

So we think Ibsen maybe was a feminist, even though he didn't have the word. Yes, exactly. Tanika Gupta, thank you very much indeed for being with us. Thank you, Jenny. I was talking to Tanika Gupta. We had lots of response from you on the Royal College of Midwives and the question of charging women who are not UK residents for maternity care.

Heather said it's the policy, not the officers, that are the problem. This is the hostile environment in action. Someone else said midwives have been policing women's social, mental and health more and more. For the good of the woman and her family, how beneficial has it been? The NHS is broken. We've cracked down on social pariahs in the UK. Why should women and families coming to the UK to birth their babies be excluded? And that was from a practising midwife. From Limitilly the Doom Witch, Has anyone thought of the moment when a vulnerable pregnant woman decides

not to go to see a midwife because of the bill? Whose responsibility is it if her pregnancy goes wrong and both she and her child die? Margaret said, I'm appalled at the attitude of your guest regarding overseas users of the NHS being charged. If I travel overseas I have either to have the resources to fund possible care or insurance. Pregnancy is a nine-month process therefore someone coming to the UK should plan. I have no problem with initial emergency care but whilst healthcare is rationed to UK taxpayers these users must expect to pay in full. Time to join the real world. Many pay their taxes but don't earn anything like midwives do and have their own care ration to fund these non-eligible users. Then Anna said, what sort of society are we living in? Where's the humanity in this? Forcing

caring professionals to do the dirty work of an inhumane system that seems to have billions of spare taxpayers cash when it suits but nothing when there's a chance of showing compassion to people, particularly women who are in need, very angry and upset at these hidden cruelties. Somebody who didn't want to be named said, well, I accept that, yes, it's inappropriate for midwives to be involved with the costing process if it's affecting how they treat the mother. I can't accept that some form of cost should not be levied on these mothers. There was no discussion whatsoever on whether if costs were dropped, the NHS would become a target for NHS tourism, and how perhaps other countries deal with this.

In my experience, other countries charge for everything they do, no matter how much of an emergency and how desperate people are. Surely our poor, beleaguered NHS and the poor British taxpayer who funds it should be given some economic consideration. Ruth said, We have a huge foreign aid budget. I think a slice of this money should be for asylum seekers and women who have no papers and need NHS care. Officials should just assess the situation and seek money from the foreign aid budget. S. Phillips said the NHS is for

British residents so if others come from overseas they must expect to pay all these women who don't pay are preventing those in the population who've been paying towards the nhs all their lives and then suddenly need surgery later in life or get cancer and d palmer said while these women are being pursued we're missing the collection of funds from wealthy patients an American friend's mother was not asked to pay for her treatment of a broken ankle at an NHS hospital in East London. She specifically asked if there was anything to pay and was told no. She had the funds to pay, insurance, and was willing to pay. It's outrageous that we're pursuing poor women in labour. There are countless similar examples.

Every non-British citizen should be asked to pay, but those who are clearly not able should be left alone. The recovery agent should be at admissions, not on the labour wards. We should require all foreign visitors to take out health insurance for the entirety of their visit. Poor migrants should be the last ones we try to recover funds from. Well thank you for all your contributions. Do join me for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's tomorrow afternoon, Saturday at four o'clock. Try and join me then. Bye bye. Russell Cain here and I'm here to tell you about Evil Genius, the BBC Radio 4 podcast where we take icons from history

and then decimate them by slinging mud. Think you know everything about Einstein? You don't. He was a woman hater. You probably think you know about Amy Winehouse, that she was a victim. She had a pretty dark side, and we're not shy about exploring it. Evil Genius. We take people from history, and a panel of three fellow jesters have to vote at the end of the show. No ifs, no buts, no grey areas, evil or genius. Plus hilarious banter as

well. So head to BBC Sounds now and hit subscribe. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.