Woman's Hour - Nadine Labaki, Vulvas, Films

Episode Date: February 18, 2019

The 2019 Oscars are on Sunday and no women are in the Best Director category. However, one woman's made it in the Best Foreign Language category. She's Nadine Labaki, the director of Capernaum. She's also the first Lebanese woman ever to be nominated for an Oscar. Capernaum is set in the slums of Beirut and follows a young boy called Zain who sues his parents for giving him life. Staying with the Oscars, this year we have the hashtag #OscarsSoMale. That’s because some categories contain no women nominees at all. They are: Best Director, Original Score, Film Editing and Best Picture. Overall women make up just a quarter of this year's nominees across the board. Melody Bridges who presenters a Radio 4 podcast about films joins us to shine a light on some of her favourite women in film history who haven't been nominated, but deserve recognition.Photos of a hundred vulvas. That's what Laura Dodsworth's latest book is all about. It's called Womanhood: The Bare Reality. Laura was last on Woman's Hour talking about a companion book called Manhood: The Bare Reality which included pictures of a hundred penises. Lily and Saschan are also with us in the studio talking about why they agreed to take part in the book.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Thank you for downloading the Woman's Hour podcast from Monday the 18th of February 2019. The podcast today features an explicit conversation about female genitalia. So if you're not in the mood for that, then this isn't the podcast for you.

And we also talk about women in film, and notably a woman called Nadine Labaki, whose film Capernaum has been nominated for an Oscar, and Capernaum is well worth seeing. So Nadine, on the podcast today. First of all, stories about abuse have dogged the Catholic Church for many years, and you might well remember, certainly if you heard it, you won't have forgotten the nuns who talked to Jenny on Woman's Hour

a couple of weeks ago about the abuse they'd endured from priests over the years. Over the weekend it was announced that an 88 year old former cardinal Theodore McCarrick has been chucked out of the priesthood for abuse and solicitation. Now the timing of this is quite significant. Pope Francis hosts a meeting later on this week with senior bishops from all over the world about protecting children and vulnerable people. The Pope has admitted the event can't solve the crisis, but he wants to start educating clergy and raising awareness. I talked this morning to Mari Collins, who's an Irish woman who was abused by a priest as a child. Mari was on the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors,

but she resigned from that in 2017. She told me what happened to her when she was a girl. I was 12, just turning 13, and I went into a children's hospital for an operation. I was there for three weeks, and during that time,

the Catholic chaplain sexually assaulted me on a number of occasions. He also took photographs, abuse images, and this negatively affected a lot of my life. About 20 years ago, I reported him to the church and to the police. My local diocese, they protected him. They would not cooperate with the police, so I had to do it without their help. He eventually was jailed for my abuse and subsequently he was jailed for abusing other children after me but at that time I realised that the church were not protecting children properly and this priest had been

mentoring children in the local school when I reported him and the church wouldn't take him out and it wasn't until the police got involved that they would do anything so that started me sort of campaigning on this issue because the laity the people were being told that there was no problem it was all being handled when in fact it wasn't so from that point on then I began to speak out and speak for the protection, better protection of children. You've met the Pope, haven't you? You met him when he came to Ireland. What was that experience like? Well, I had worked on his advisory commission for three years, so I'd met him briefly before, but in August I met him to sit down and talk to him. I think he's a good man. He's well

intentioned. But we've had many years, decades now of this problem, and they're not really getting to grips with it. What is he doing wrong? Because you say he's well intentioned. And in fact, he's made a lot of enemies, I gather, within the Vatican because of his avowed intention to tackle this problem. Indeed, and this was the problem, the reason I resigned from that advisory committee. We put recommendations to him to hold bishops accountable, better safeguarding policies globally, etc. He recommended all the commissions.

He approved all the commission's recommendations. But when they were passed down to his civil service, his curia, they blocked all the changes. They refused to implement them. So his problem really was in being able to get things done, although his intention was right. And I think maybe he wasn't quite strong enough at that time to face down these men who, in the Vatican,

had the view that no change was needed and things should go on as they always have done. But he hasn't given up. He is still working on it, I believe, and hopefully this meeting now might be a move forward. Do you believe that, in fact, the previous Pope, Benedict, resigned effectively because he couldn't tackle this or didn't have the strength to start to tackle it? I think there were a number of reasons. This may well have been one of them. I think people don't realise that a Pope, we feel that the Pope can start to snap his fingers and things happen. But the Curia in the Vatican, they are very, very powerful.

And there are factions there now, pro and anti-Francis factions. They're making life difficult for them. But there is also a problem with some of the bishops around the world, particularly in third world countries, who do not see this as an issue and don't want to tackle it, don't understand that they should tackle it. And sadly in those countries there are many, many victims. They just haven't, the subject is still taboo, so they haven't got the freedom to come forward and speak out as they have done in America, Ireland, Australia, all the other countries.

And in England, too, we've seen you have an inquiry going on there. You know, and the non-CO in England, that's the ambassador from the Vatican, he has refused to cooperate with your inquiry. And that's the sort of thing that has to change. I mean, that does, when you say that, that just seems utterly unbelievable. Can I just ask you, what is it like to be in the room with the head of your church as a woman who has suffered and has been brave enough to speak out? And there you were with the Pope and effectively you took issue with him and disagreed with him. This is all a long way from that little girl of nearly 13, isn't it?

Oh, it's been a long journey. It has been a very long journey. I think if you're too much in awe or in reverence, you know, you won't be able to speak strongly and factually. I respect the man. He is a leader of millions and a billion Catholics. But on the other hand,

I saw it as an opportunity to speak directly to him about what I saw as needed in the way of change. And I took that opportunity. And he is a man who listens. He is a man who doesn't say something to you because he thinks it's what you want to hear.

You know, we basically argued the point about a couple of things. But he is a sincere man and I feel he is trying, but he sometimes takes advice from people who don't have the right intentions and that is a problem.

You know, you can be quite isolated in the Vatican and surrounded by people who want to tell you how you should be doing it and I imagine it's difficult to know which advisors you should listen to. Oh, I'm sure. And of course... So it was an opportunity to speak directly to him. And that was very welcome. And also as a Catholic, of course, to meet the Pope is sort of something you don't expect in your life. No. Do you have high hopes then for this conference? What do you think will be the best result?

Well, you know, the organisers have said the idea is, the focus is to get all these bishops from around the world to go away knowing how they should handle this problem. And that is, it's belated because we've had decades of it now they should by now have been educated in how to handle it but that being said the the focus is to get them going away knowing how it should be handled what i would like to see is them going away after committing themselves to actually handle it properly there's a big difference between knowing how to do it and actually doing it so i would like to see at the end of this meeting some concrete safeguarding policies and accountability policies actually published

and that these men have committed to implementing them and abiding by them. But all we can do is wait and see. It's a global recognition that it is a global problem and that in itself is a and see. It's a global recognition that there's a global problem and that in itself is a step forward. Do you believe that one step that could be taken is to end the requirement for priests to be celibate, just stop it? Certainly. I mean, I don't believe celibacy is the core problem with abuse. You know, sexual abuse of children happens in families, married men.

It's not necessarily to do with celibacy. But I do think that if we had married clergy, if clergy could choose whether they wanted to be celibate or not, it would certainly help. But it's not the solution to the problem, I do believe. Another problem, obviously, with the global nature of this church is that I gather that nobody can agree on a definition of abuse. That's correct I mean at the moment the church law the canon law covering the abuse simply states that it's basically a delect or a sin against the sixth commandment which can be interpreted in any way you like.

And a bishop in Africa might interpret it very different from a bishop in England. You have to have, in the child guidelines here, in the safeguarding policy in the church in Ireland, we have a very clear definition of what constitutes abuse. And it goes right to the point of, you you know there can be even non-contact abuse getting children to look at pornography or exposing yourself in front of a child etc none of that is covered in the church law it's very very vague um so you have to have a definition because if you don't know what abuse is or what constitutes abuse and somebody comes to report

something to you you're not going to be able to handle it properly. So that's a very, very, you know, basic thing. The other thing that I would like to see is zero tolerance. We've seen a cardinal being thrown out of the church now. He's no longer a priest. He's been laicised. And I would like to see that happen with any priest who abuses a child should immediately lose his priestly status and be removed from the church. And the Pope has promised that, but we haven't seen it happen. And for it to happen worldwide, it has to be incorporated again in church law

because, you know, there are some in the church who ignore civil law and ignore criminal law, but they won't ignore their own internal church law. And that's why I feel it really needs to be put into that. And I'd like to see this being discussed at the meeting this week. Mari, thank you very much. Really appreciate you talking to us. Mari Collins, who campaigns, of course, against abuse in the Catholic Church.

If you want to get involved in anything you've heard on the programme today or you're about to hear later, you know you can do it's at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and on Instagram you can follow us there and you can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash women's hour it's the Oscars next Sunday night so we'll know who's won everything this time next

week this year the hashtag Oscars so male has been trending and that's because no women have been nominated in the Best Director, Original Score, Film Editing and Best Picture categories. In fact, just a quarter of non-acting Oscar nominations this year went to women.

You might well have seen the Ferraro yesterday, after the BBC News website ran a story about Nina Hartstone, who's been nominated for her work in sound on the film Bohemian Rhapsody. Unfortunately, the BBC's headline called her a sound editor mum. That has since been changed. You can understand why a lot of people took issue with that. We're going to hear in a moment or two from a woman whose film has been nominated for an Oscar.

But first, let's talk about films that maybe should have been given a bit more award-worthy attention. Melanie Bridges, Melody Bridges, I apologise is here, playwright, and a woman who's worked on Radio 4 podcasts about film and musicals. Melody, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, you've picked three films, all directed by women over the last couple of years that didn't get nominated for an Oscar. So we're going to start with a film I've seen called Private Life. Yes. Now, let's briefly have a quick extract from this.

It stars Catherine Hahn as Rachel, Paul Giamatti as Richard, and it's a film, a fairly bleak comedy about infertility, really. And the couple have just been told by their doctor they've got to consider egg donation. We talked about this. We swore we would never do it. No, you swore that you would never do it. I, I kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to pressure you into something that you were going to have to live with for the rest of your life. Wait, so all this time that I'm assuming that we feel the same way about this, you've been having secret fantasies about egg donation?

It's not a secret fantasy. It is to me. I didn't know about it. I thought that we had decided together as a couple that we would definitely draw the line at science fiction. It's not science fiction, Rach. It's pretty primitive, actually. They do it with farm animals all the time. Well, I'm not a goat, okay? Bad example? I'm sorry.

Oh, my God. I am just suggesting that we listen to our doctor and look into all the options. We're already signed up for adoption. What is the big deal? Well, for one, I'm not putting someone else's body parts into my uterus. My God, look, we are doing everything we can, short of kidnapping, to start a family. I do not know why this is so off limits. It's easy for you to say. You'll have your genetic contribution. And me, I'm just... I'll just be...

What? Left out. Well, the film is Private Life. You knew he was onto a loser there when he talked about farm animals, really. The director was Tamara Jenkins. So, Melody, I have seen this, but a lot of people won't have seen it or heard of it.

I think it's a tremendous movie. You can find it online. I think Netflix have it too. Tamara Jenkins is hugely talented, screenwriter and director here at the peak of her powers. And everyone should watch this movie it's a great movie of 2018

and it's a real shame that it's not been nominated Why wasn't it nominated for anything? That's a really good question a lot of the problems come down to some institutionalised prejudice about women directors and women writers I think and limitations in that way

also they often fail to get the distribution so this film isn't actually widely they often fail to get the distribution. So this film isn't actually widely available. People didn't get the chance to go and see it in cinemas because it wasn't distributed in that way. So that's also all about where the money is. Where's the money put? And in the run-up to the Oscars, who is investing in these films?

And it's a real shame that not more films made by women are celebrated. Yeah, okay. Let's go on to another one, another American director. This is Leave No Trace by women are celebrated. Yeah, OK. Let's go on to another one. Another American director. This is Leave No Trace by Deborah Granik. What about this one? Oh, Deborah Granik, hugely talented.

Everyone loved her other big movie, A Winter's Bone. And I think people thought this would be a great movie. People would do well in the Oscars. I mean, she wrote a great script. It's a really original story. A father and a daughter living in a national park. He's ex-military. They can't really integrate in society, but they've got their own world.

And it's just actually beautifully filmed. You can tell she's an expert in cinematography. Absolutely stunning. But I cannot believe it's not nominated in cinematography or in other categories too. So please do try and see this movie, Leave No Trace. Who's in it? Oh, stunning movie so Ben Foster is the dad and Thomasin McKenzie is such an incredible young actress it's a real

shame that she didn't get some kind of nomination for her acting from the Academy. I'm trying to think there are no similarities that I can spot between Leave No Trace and Perfect Life except that I guess you might say it's they're domestic you could make can you make that accusation? I would never want to be saying that women filmmakers make things about their specific areas. That's why I'm throwing it in there with a note of tremulous in my voice, tremulation. Because obviously women can make movies about any topic.

Is it true that maybe a fertility story like Private Life is seen as a quote-unquote woman's story? Well, wrongly, but maybe. Maybe, maybe. But I think it's just so much, so many men and women I know in that 40s era are having these agonising choices right now. So I think it's a story for everyone, men and women. And similarly with Leave No Trace,

an absolutely beautifully well-told film. Leave No Trace is just stunning. All right, so people should seek that one out too. And finally, it's a British director, Lynne Ramsey, and You Were Never Really Here. Yes, this is the kind of movie that I usually avoid because it's quite scary, I have to say. Well, I thought it was going to be really scary,

but it wasn't actually as bad as I thought. And it was just so beautifully done. That's what was really special about it. Like We Need To Talk About Kevin, it's just an astonishing piece of filmmaking. Yeah, Lynne directed that one as well. Yes, yeah, absolutely. I don't know why she doesn't get more awards

and she just plugs on and she keeps making brilliant movie after brilliant movie. So even though it was something I didn't think I would make myself watch, I'm really glad I did because it was a stunning movie. And it's Joachim,

I never know how to pronounce his name. Joachim Phoenix. Joachim, yes. Indeed. Unrecognisable as this kind of bearded hitman. He's really traumatised from being in the military. And what he does is he goes and takes down bad guys and rescues abducted children. So there's a real kind of anti-hero figure here.

He's, you know, he's quite brutal, but thankfully you don't see much on screen, which is great because I don't like that kind of thing. But you do see him really wrestling with massive demons and some real moments of tenderness from him too. All right, really good to get your input, Melody. Thank you. And Melody's going to be back later on in this week, actually, talking more about women in film that deserve celebrating

ahead of the Oscars, which are, of course, Sunday night, this Sunday, approaching Sunday night. Thank you very much, Melody. Let's then celebrate a woman who has, well, her work has been nominated for an Oscar. Nadine Labaki is the director of Capernaum, which has been nominated as Best Film in the Foreign Language category. She's the first Arab woman filmmaker to ever be nominated for an Oscar. Now, Capernaum is set in the slums of Beirut.

And it's the story of a young boy called Zain who sues his parents for bringing him into the world when they can't bring him up properly. It's a family where none of the kids are registered. It's a family where the kids never went to school because obviously when you are in this situation, you don't have the right to anything. So you can't go to school. You don't have the right to health. You don't have the right to anything. Well, these people are Syrian refugees.

No, in the film, we actually don't say. Okay. Oh, is that a deliberate choice? Yes, it's a deliberate choice because for me it was very symbolic to say most of them are non-existent children. So invisible children that are completely excluded from the system. It's a way of also talking about the absurdity of our systems where you have to have a paper to prove that you exist. And if you don't, you literally don't exist, you're completely excluded from the system. And you end up living on the fringes of society in a way on the margins of society, just hanging there. What is it people in Britain, because obviously, we live a rather privileged life on the whole,

the vast majority of us, not everybody. What do we need to know about Beirut, about the situation there, about what sorts of refugees are flocking to that place now? Well, Lebanon has hosted over a million and a half refugees until now. And it's almost, you know, Lebanon is a very, very small country. It's really an invisible dot on the map. So proportionally to its population, it's almost half of the population that is Syrian now. So Lebanon has been going through a lot of very difficult economical circumstances and situation. So it's very hard for Lebanese and for Syrians. And we're struggling.

Lebanon is also a country where there's lots of contradiction. You see lots of different cultures, lots of different religions, lots of different sects living together in that small country. So what you see in the film is really depicting more the slums of Beirut. And it's not something that is only happening in Lebanon. You know, Capernaum means chaos in French. It's chaos. It's a Capernaum, I think, that any country in the world is facing right now. I'm sure in London, there's... Oh, I'm absolutely sure that we know that child poverty exists in Britain and certainly

child neglect, which is at the centre of this story. So tell me about the young boy who is the heart of it. Yes. So in real life, Zayn is a Syrian refugee. And he's been living in Lebanon in very difficult circumstances, unfortunately, for the past eight years. And he's living situation that is very similar to the situation that he lives in the film. But the only difference is that in the film, you know, he has very neglecting parents in real life, he has loving parents, but still Zayn was never able to go to school in Lebanon. So when we were shooting the film, he didn't even know how to write his own name, which is only three letters. And he had to grow up on the streets.

So the streets were his, in a way, his school. He's a child that has seen a lot, has been abused a bit on the streets. And, you know, when you have to survive on the street, it's very difficult. You have to outsmart everyone and everything. And he's a very wise child. In the past few years, we've seen a lot of neglect, you know, especially when you live in Lebanon,

you see it very closely. Lately, we've seen also on the internet and the images of lots of kids being very, very, very, you know, deprived. I remember very well seeing this image of the Syrian refugee boy who was found dead on the beach in Turkey. And I remember very well thinking, if this child could talk, what would he say? What would he tell the world? How would he address us, the adults that have failed him so much? Because those kids are paying a very high price of our neglect and

our conflicts and our wars and our systems and bad decisions and bad governments. So I just wanted to become their voice. It's really important for people to understand you don't have actors. These people are real. Yes, real. This is their first time acting. All of them are living almost very similar circumstances in their real life. So it was really, in a way, they were collaborating in the whole process. I was adapting the script to their personality, to their way of talking,

to their self-expression and navigating their truth. I really want people to go and see the film if they can. But Zayn eventually ends up living with a young woman and she is another. Well, she's also a refugee. Yes, she's a migrant worker living in Lebanon, a domestic worker. No papers, no security. No papers, nothing, illegally. And it was her real situation when we started shooting.

That's why, I mean, I decided to work with her because she knows what we're talking about. She knows about this struggle. And she, unfortunately, during the shoot, because she was in that situation, there was a scene where she gets arrested in the film. After we shoot this scene, she gets arrested in real life. And she goes through exactly the same things that she went through in the film. Luckily, we were able to get her out and fix her papers. So where is that woman now? Has her life been transformed by being in the film? She stayed in France when we came back from France. And she's, you know, she's still trying to change her life. Luckily, she's not back in the same modern slavery kind of life

that she was living in Lebanon. This, you know, this sort of change in their situation is happening for each one of the characters, actors. Zay now is in Norway. He's been resettled in Norway with all his family. He's going to school. He has a complete shift of destiny in a way. The UN Agency for Refugees did this for

Zayn. And the kids who were actually street kids are now in schools. So there's a change that is happening in their lives. And I think the fact that this film is actually humanizing the problem, you know, when you hear about it in the news through figures and numbers, it's a completely different approach. It's a bit of an abstract problem we're talking about. But when you're actually seeing the struggle, and you're actually putting a face on it, and it's the face of a child or a man or a woman, or you feel it. What was it like for the young Ethiopian woman? How did you approach her? She must have thought you were, when you went up to her and said, I want you to be in a film, what did she say?

Of course, in the beginning, there's a lot of obstacles and there's a lot of anxiety. She didn't know what were our intentions. She was scared. But I think at the end, she also wanted to tell her story. And this is the approach with every one of the actors in the film. Of course, in the beginning, they don't know if they want to do it or not. They don't know if it's safe to do it or not. They were paid to do it.

Of course, they were paid to do it. Yes, absolutely. And now, you know, we've created a small organization that is trying to raise funding in order to help and sustain. It's not easy. You know, it's a very difficult task to just be involved in their lives and keep being involved in their lives. But in a way, it's our responsibility also. What about the criticism that some people might make

that the scenes of real poverty, which I must admit, I was shocked by, this teeming flat that's full of children who are essentially bringing each other up, actually, because the parents appearing not to care less. And you've got shots of small babies helping themselves to powdered milk. Nobody's going to give them and there's no liquid. They just bung the powder into their mouths. Some people would say, oh, this this is that not very nice expression, but that expression poverty porn.

Yeah, there's some people who are using those words that are very hurtful and shocking to me. And, you know, I'm surprised when people use those words. Unfortunately, reality is much harsher than that. Every single scene of the film, every single detail is really based on something we've seen. I've been in apartments where I see kids who are still in wet pajamas all day long. They are blue from the cold, hungry, helping themselves to powdered milk because they didn't have any water to mix with the milk. And spending hours and hours like this on their own. We hear about kids dying every day from neglect.

I'm not talking about one kid or two. We're talking about hundreds of kids dying this way, whether because he fell off the balcony because there was no one there. I don't know. He put his hand in the electrical socket and died. We need to see this reality. And I cannot really believe that people would actually use those kinds of words like poverty, porn. This is reality.

This is not porn. And reality is much worse. I've seen kids who are so traumatized that they don't feel anything anymore. It's not, they don't play. They don't laugh. They don't, they don't cry. They don't dance. They don't do anything.

You even put a toy in front of a three-year-old, four-year-old boy or girl. They don't touch it. They don't touch it. They don't see it. I saw kids who tell me, I wish I was dead. I don't know why I'm here. Why am I here if I'm going to be mistreated and raped and abused and beaten up every day? Nobody's going to say a nice word to me. Nobody's ever going to kiss me before I sleep.

Why am I here? And this film is really inspired by that. That's why it became that story of this kid who's going to kiss me before I sleep? Why am I here? And this film is really inspired by that. That's why it became that story of this kid who's going to sue his parents. He's actually suing the whole world. He's not only suing his parents. He's actually saying, you don't deserve me. Is this what you're going to say if you get the opportunity to make a statement about all this at the Oscars? Because there couldn't be a greater contrast there, could there, between the world you depict in the film? I know, and it's a bit schizophrenic, but I want to seize this opportunity.

We need to tell those people who are the decision makers, we are the decision makers, the new decision makers of the world, the alternative decision makers of the world. It's the artists, it's the people who have a voice, it's producers. I mean, governments are not doing something about it and politics, the way it's going, is not doing anything about it. And it's the people who have a voice it's producers I mean governments are not doing something about it and politics the way it's going is not doing anything about it and it's actually failing and it's proving that it's failing on every level we're talking about a billion children

living in those circumstances and those children are going to grow up one day That's quite a thought Nadine Labaki, the director of the film Capernaum which is in cinemas across the country I I'm sure, from Friday. It is worth seeking out., well, she is everywhere. Everyone has a view. Everyone is talking about her. And we're going to do the same, actually, and talk about her, but perhaps from a slightly different perspective on the programme tomorrow. So make sure you're listening if you're aware of that case and have a point of view yourself. Now, I've just been

looking at Twitter. Our Twitter feed's in front of me on the screen. And one listener takes me to task. And I can understand why. I did say that we were talking very frankly about female genitalia and ushered you to perhaps consider an alternative if you don't want to hear it, but I didn't issue a warning about the conversation about abuse. And, of course, that's interesting, isn't it, that I didn't do that, but I did do it about the conversation you're about to hear. So I take the point, absolutely. And if you want to pitch in at bbc

women's out on twitter if you have a point of view so um we're talking to the artist and photographer laura doddsworth welcome laura good to see you thank you for having me it's a huge honor yes now yes you've already you don't need to say that again that's okay oh you said it to me didn't you um you were on women's hour a couple of years ago discussing your manhood book and this was manhood the bare reality and it was a string of years ago discussing your Manhood book. And this was Manhood, the bare reality. And it was a string of photographs of penises and their owners, their proud owners who were bearing all for you. Interesting. It was very interesting.

It was an amazing, interesting project. Showed me a very soft, vulnerable side of men. It was a very, I think, much needed exploration of masculinity. And I used the penis as a starting point for a conversation about manhood. Now, you're back with Womanhood, the Bare Reality, which features images of 100 vulvas, along with some very revealing interviews with some of the participants of the project. And I've got two with us here as well today. Lily is 48. Welcome to you, Lily.

I only mentioned the age. Good morning. Thank you. 54, by the way, just because it is sort of relevant. And Sashan is 27 and you are both featured in the book. Good to see you both. Can you just take us all to the very start of all this, Sashan? Why did you decide to contribute your image and your story to this collection? So I do a lot of work in my personal life around supporting women to understand their

reproductive well-being and when I was 19 I had a coil fitted and that resulted in me getting pelvic inflammatory disease and then I had to have emergency surgery to have my right ovarian fallopian tube removed and then after that I was diagnosed with stage two and then stage four endometriosis, uterine fibroids, uterine polyps. I was told that I might not be able to have children by the time that I turned 27. So I think for me it's really important to make space to have an open conversation about the reality of what it's like to live in your body as a woman and what that feels like and what that looks like and a lot of the time we attach a lot of shame to our experiences as women and I think it's

excuse me it's time now to kind of remove that to make space to have that conversation because otherwise we're just instilling that shame in another generation of young women who aren't going to get the help they need aren't going to get the support that they need, and aren't going to see themselves as normal. This is all happening at the moment alongside porn, which we'll talk about in a moment, and it's accessible 24-7. Everybody can see it. You sometimes think everybody is seeing it.

Probably not everybody, but a huge chunk of our audience right now will have seen it and be hugely influenced by it, whether they know it or not. And the increase in things like cosmetic labiaplasty, young women who are fearful that they're not right in some way. And that's a massive issue, isn't it, Sasha? Yeah, I think a lot of the time it's really easy, particularly if you don't see other women's bodies, to think that your body is abnormal because of what you see available on social media on the television um on the internet and that is quite harmful a lot of the young women that I've kind of worked with in schools will tell you that they they have accessed porn um they've seen it and they think if you ask them what they think their body should look like or if they feel confident

in their body a lot of the time they say, they'll talk to you about 101 things that they want to change, but nothing that they really appreciate about themselves. And I think that if you consider this is the only body that you have to live with for the rest of your life, it's important that you feel comfortable and confident in that and not influenced by the opinions of other people when you're having conversations like we shouldn't feel ashamed of the bodies that we take to work or we take to bed or we have in public environments we should feel comfortable having open conversations in a way that doesn't attach shame to them in a way that we can feel free and there's no need to kind of hide the conversation. No, or embed it solely in pornography and leave it there.

Lily, you were brought up in the Catholic Church, which is how we started the programme today, but that's not insignificant in your own relationship with your body. No, that's right. I think my experience of the Catholic Church was that my sexuality and my female body was totally repressed with quite serious consequences for me. So I think it's really important. It's what you were saying about being shamed and shaming women is a way of controlling women. And, you you know women are often told you can't you mustn't you shouldn't and you know we're just trying to reclaim that by just um the reality of ourselves just existing being normal and not being shamed for it we're just saying here we are

you talk up in your own account in the book about um masturbation about um your joy in your own body and the pleasure it gives you. It is actually startling even to hear myself saying those words. You don't actually hear that stuff or read it very often. Well, certainly not from women. No. I mean, we accept that boys and men masturbate all the time and there are lots of words for that that are used in everyday life.

But for women, it's really shocking to hear about a woman pleasuring herself with her body. And yeah, it is quite a radical thing. It's radical to centre women, basically. Yeah, and Laura, I know that you were determined to wrestle women's bodies back from the jaws of pornography. Effectively, that is what this is about, isn't it? I think that is a really important background to this project

and all my work for the last five years, definitely. I mean, if you Google vulvas, although you could use a myriad of words, a myriad of euphemisms, you're going to find lots of pictures on the internet, but they're all going to be from porn. And picking up on what Lily was saying, the radical thing isn't vulvas, it's not photographs of them, it's women showing them on their own terms, showing what they really look like.

And like both of these women are saying, reclaiming the space to talk about whatever we want, because the vulvas contextualised as solely sexual, but it isn't. The stories we've got cover all kinds of really massive, important themes. Like life experiences, like miscarriage, childbirth, the menopause, periods. Yes and also pleasure and sex but told from women's point of view. It's quite a juicy book and quite a juicy film. But yeah the film, you knew I was going to get onto this, the film is on channel four tomorrow night 10 o'clock and Laura it is called A Hundred Vaginas. Why is it called that? Yeah, this has been a little bit controversial because since the publicity for the book came out,

there has been this big debate about vulvas versus vaginas. But what versus? I mean, do you know what? I actually had to Google yesterday a definition of vulva just to be absolutely, despite being the proud possessor of a vulva for 54 and a half years, I still had to. And it's the external genitalia.

Yes. So why the confusion with Channel 4 and vaginas? Well, I have photographed 100 vulvas. No endoscopes were used in the making of this film or book. So I photograph vulvas. But the conversation in the book and the film is about vulvas and vaginas. And the fact is that even though we shouldn't, a lot of people use the word vagina to mean the whole kit and caboodle, which it is not.

But I reckon if the film had been called 100 Vulvas, people would have thought it was a program about cars. The fact is that vagina is the word that's in common use. But doesn't that tell you... I use, of course, this shows the whole, I mean, it shows the whole problem. You know, that there's a lot of shame, even about naming women's body parts. It's crazy. I mean, one thing I found from interviewing 100 women is that women don't know what to call down there. You know, a lot of women will avoid using a word at all. I think it's really important to use the right language.

It's true that the title of the film is a bit confusing like that because I haven't photographed vaginas. But the fact is, there's never been anything like this on television before. It's a very groundbreaking film. It's very bold and it's all about the female gaze. So people have to give the title a little bit of artistic license. All right. OK, well, that's a spirited defense. Channel 4's decision to call this program 100 Vaginas. It's Channel 4's decision, not mine.

It's a great decision from Channel 4 because it sort of encapsulates the problem, doesn't it? You know, they've called it 100 vaginas and actually it just shows this whole confusion around what women name themselves. It's true. It nails the problem in a way. It does. And it's opened up a big conversation about the correct terminology. So I'm quite grateful for that. There's been a massive Twitter storm about what we call it. And I mean, myself, I try to use the right terminology because I think if we use the right words we have a lot more power do you think I mean empowerment is something we rattle on about a lot on this program session I don't know whether it actually does it exist you tell

me have you felt more positive since taking part in all this um I think I want to say yes I think I was a little bit apprehensive about um the book being published and the film coming out at first um and I've also had like quite a liberal upbringing you know my mum works in sexual health yeah um so that has had a massive impact on kind of like how I see my body but I think what is really nice and kind of is a credit to your work Laura is that there's absolutely nothing sexual about this project except in the capacity that we have shared our own sexual experiences and I think that that is really empowering that we're not looking at our bodies in a sexualized way which is the way that we typically see our bodies portrayed in the media

we're looking at them just as the home that we live in it's just it's just a body and it's the experience that comes along with that and I think that that is really empowering and I think what was quite nice is I was like reading it on the train and the guy behind me was like reading it over my shoulder when I was going home on the weekend um it's interesting you say that because I brought it into work with me this morning on the underground and I I didn't at one point I was carrying it and then I thought oh no I better put it in the bag. Isn't that ridiculous really? You actually just read it? Yeah I was a little bit apprehensive at first because I was like there's this book and it's got all of women's vulvas in

it and I don't really know if I should be reading this in public but then I was just like I don't I actually don't I don't care um it doesn't bother me and I don't think that we should feel ashamed to kind of see ourselves in this way I thought what was quite nice at the book launch was um my friend immediately was like yeah that one's you like immediately she knew which one was mine that's hilarious because I took me ages to work out who who I was you couldn't you couldn't find yourself I couldn't recognize myself and then I thought I had and I'd got it completely wrong what was it like to be photographed it was it was hilarious actually because um I think what you know if you're a woman whether you've had children or not you're kind of used to people poking around um to be fair there was no poking around though no there wasn't no but it was when Laura just said

what you put your you you put your ankles together and let your knees flop out I was like, oh yeah, okay I've done this before and then, so it happened very quickly and then Laura just said, right, thank you and I just thought, what? You mean you didn't faint, Laura

and you didn't keel over in shock and I thought she was going to have some kind of terrible reaction from seeing my vulva But you were worried about what laura would think yeah because you might be a bit weird yeah yeah well yeah i learned a lot about vulvas though in this i mean i thought there were normal vulvas like mine and then there were porn vulvas and actually only had to photograph the first few women to realize how incredibly different we are

and normal looks like a lot of different things you know we all look similar but we all look very different and as a straight woman who doesn't have a medical point of reference don't have any other point of reference i didn't know i think this would have been really useful to see i wish i'd read my book when i was 16 i think there's lots of ways it would have made me feel better about myself let's bring in uh the listeners and their thoughts. Teresa, I don't think it's that one. Hang on, check out Betty Dodson's Sex for One from 1974. Mean anything to you, Laura? Yeah, Betty Dodson's a very well-known sex educator. She did some great work. I hadn't heard of her, I must admit. Anyway, Teresa says it was republished again in 83, 87 and 96. So this

conversation's been going on for a while. Beautiful hand-drawn pictures of our varying reproductive bits, says Teresa. Now, euphemisms like reproductive bits are the sorts of things we're trying to avoid. And I think, Teresa, to be fair, this book is coming out at a time when pornography is much more prevalent than it was back in Betty Dodson's day.

That's fair, isn't it? Oh, totally. There was no internet porn then, was there? Another anonymous emailer. I often hear the argument made about pornography that it makes women feel inadequate. Well, I've had the opposite experience. I used to be entirely self-conscious about my vulva, and this impacted hugely on my confidence and my relationships. Only when I started watching porn, most of it amateur, did I realise the variety in women's bodies

and that I was one among billions of versions of normal. And there were always positive reactions to these bodies in the comments. Well, I think there isn't... I think we've generally got quite a complicated relationship with porn haven't we i don't think amateur porn's a little bit different yeah they're real people they're real couples a lot of the time we're real sexual partners whereas a lot of the porn that is staged and performed is just performance and a lot of what young people are accessing is that type of porn as opposed to porn that is two people consenting who maybe are in a loving relationship or in a sexual relationship.

Yeah. It's the dynamic of that sex is very different. And it's great she had that reaction. But my experience talking to 100 women is women have quite an ambivalent relationship with porn. And in general, it's not good for body image. We'll get on to more of the thoughts of the listeners briefly pat says the word vagina is latin for sheath yeah um a useful way to remember the bit it refers to well um pat says my latin a level occasionally comes in handy but it's good to know that it can be relevant and but of course that the fact that vagina is latin for

sheath um tells you all about who invented language and what they considered. So that's just they've used vagina in the context of somewhere for a man to put his penis, which is not quite how most women see it. Totally. So I try to use the correct medical terminology, but it does mean a sheath for a sword. So basically placed a penis. A vulva means a wrapper and pudendum means shame. So none of the words are actually that great if you look at the meanings behind them lisa my granddaughter's nursery were surprised when they found that at two she knew the word penis that was nothing compared to their shock when they found out

she called her own bits her vulva perhaps i should add her parents are doctors so she does know the correct terms for a lot of body parts. Right. From Angela. This is interesting. For goodness sake, what tripe these women are talking. The more that's put into a teenager's head about their insecurities, the less confident they become and begin to find something wrong with themselves. I was clueless about what should be down there and forever mindful of my mother's warning, don't bring any trouble to this door. We fumbled our way through our first hilarious attempts at a sex life but have enjoyed a thoroughly happy life together,

penises and vulvas notwithstanding. Far too much emphasis is put on the body, just get on with it. The human race hasn't died out through lack of knowledge but a fair amount of angst is put into young minds with this twaddle. I'm just... All I do is read them out. That's all I do.

Lily. Well, it sounds... Sorry, what was her name? Well, she didn't have a name. Oh, she didn't have a name. Oh, no, she did. Angela. Angela sounds like she has a wonderfully uncomplicated life. And good for her.

And good for her. But unfortunately, a lot of women don't have that sort of straightforward existence and have had many experiences where they will have a very different relationship with their body. Yeah, I mean, good for Angela. It does sound as though things are immensely fruitful at home. And I'm somewhat jealous, actually, when I think about it. But I think it's still sort of somewhere in the back of minds, collectively, maybe, that sex is something that is done to women by men.

Absolutely. This is in heterosexual relationships, obviously. So women are expected to be passive and accept what men do or, you know, do to them. I was listening, actually, there was a song on the radio and it was all about that. It was all about what a man wants to do to, you know, a woman or a girl. And yeah, and we are expected to be passive. But I was talking to Laura earlier about what's great about the book and all the different experiences of the women in the book is you know positive and negative women come out as ultimately incredibly resilient and i just thought that's such a wonderful message

that comes from the book and it and it is empowering to use that overused word you know and it's it's great um i wonder whether we should i should have mentioned this on the program and i apologize but the difference between how gay women um how lesbians perceived their their vulvas and and straight women what would what would you say about that Laura? I think there's actually quite an interesting difference there and about gay and bisexual women versus heterosexual women I think gay and bisexual women might have their own insecurities about their own vulva that came through but how they felt about vulvas in general was quite different I found lesbian women described vulvas in a way that was really quite beautiful and magical quite reverence they went into really poetic lovely descriptions about vulvas and sex kind of made me wish I was gay because the way they talked about them was just it was delightful it was it was delightful

and so I think because they're in a position of being a lover and looking at vulvas and interacting with them they had a really different experience a lover and looking at vulvas and interacting with them they had a really different experience and description And it changed their view of their own? Not always That's where it gets complicated I think so because our relationship with our body comes from so many different places

not just the partner you're with Well it's about appreciation isn't it and I think if you have an appreciative partner that's a wonderful thing for your own body image. But Laura seemed to be saying that even gay women with appreciative partners still had doubts about themselves. There were some that did. Not all.

Not all. I appreciate you can't generalise about... No, of course you can't. There's no singular female experience. You know, everyone's different, aren't they? Unfortunately, abuse does come up in the book and indeed rape comes up in the book as well in women's recollections.

Were you shocked by how often it occurred? Yes, I really, really was. You know, I suppose online, I live in a bit of an echo chamber of feminism and, you know, I followed Me Too and it shouldn't have surprised me, but I was blown over by how many stories of childhood grooming, sexual insult and rape there were. This really affected me. I was so surprised how many stories were. I'd be talking to somebody about what I thought was an amazing, juicy story about

their sex life. And it turned out maybe they turned everything around because of a sexual assault when they were younger it just kept popping out of the woodwork when I didn't expect it and I felt really angry on behalf of the women and I think it's the first time in my life I've tapped into anger deeply I can think of things that have happened to me in my life that I didn't really feel angry about and it was empathizing with other women that put me in touch with anger in a way. But like Lily was saying before, the women are really resilient. There's no light and shade.

You know, there's light and shade. No one's just a victim. Everyone had really amazing things to talk about as well as those negative experiences, which was also a really good learning for me. And Lily, I don't want to be too intrusive, but where are you at in your life? You've had three children.

Yes. And you're not with your previous partner. I don't want to be too intrusive, but where are you at in your life? You've had three children. Yes. And you're not with your previous partner. No. So I have been married twice, Jane. Well, that's disgusting. I've only been divorced once. And divorced twice.

Oh, well, I've only been divorced once. So I'm really jealous. And I've had quite a few sexual partners, male and female. And I'm currently with a really wonderful partner who really does appreciate my body. Oh, I've just remembered something from the book, actually, that you say, which is that when male partners ask you, as apparently they have, how many partners have you had, you only count your male partners.

Yeah, and do you know what? It just sort of occurred to me. Oh, yeah, you kind of count up all the number of times you've had sex with a man, but you don't include the women. And why is that? Why is that? Well, I don't know.

And is it the way that we're conditioned socially, that it's the men who are important in our sex lives? Oh my God. You know, virginity always means, people take it to mean when a penis enters a vagina. What does that mean? That, you know, gold star lesbians are virgins. I think you might have to explain what a gold star lesbian someone who's only had sex with a woman so we we measure things about sexual partners and village virginity base and we call a vagina you know a vagina means a sheath or a sword it's all about men entering women except it's not is

it it is funny that back in latin times men were already comparing their penises to swords. Yes. Bless them. Some things don't change. It's quite funny, isn't it? Sometimes you just have to laugh. You do. I mean, you know, I was going to say,

oh, no, I'm not going to say what I'm about to say. No, forget that. Lily, actually thinking about it, why did you want to do this and get involved? Well, I'd known about Laura's work for a number of years. I've followed her on social media. And actually, it was because I respect her integrity as a feminist and as an artist. And I knew it was going to be sensitively, beautifully done. And I didn't even have to think about it, actually.

You know, I saw the call come out and I just thought, yes, it's such a needed project. We need to be able to reclaim what it means to be a woman and as Laura says on our terms well I think you've all spoken brilliantly about this I've really been interested in everything you've had to say thank you Sasha and thank you Lily and thank you Laura and the program on channel four which I did say it was like well I've never seen anything like it um That's called 100 Vaginas. That's Channel 4, Tuesday night, 10 o'clock. And the book is called Womanhood. Laura's holding it up for me.

The Bare Reality. And there are other books available in the series, including the one about penises, which is Manhood. Manhood, yes. The Bare Reality. They come in all shapes and sizes too. You will be amazed to hear. Right, on the programme tomorrow,

we'll talk to Muslim women about what they think about Shamima Begum. That's tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.