Woman's Hour - Nadiya Hussain, Actor Kate Fleetwood, 200 marathons in 200 days

Episode Date: February 16, 2026

It’s more than a decade since Nadiya Hussain became a household name after winning the Great British Bake Off. Since then, she’s fronted her own cookery shows, written more than a dozen cookbooks and a series of children’s books. Her latest collection of recipes is called Quick Comforts, and Nadiya joins presenter Clare McDonnell to talk about finding comfort in food, her career so far and lots more.A series of stories in The Guardian this week are spotlighting the role that domestic abuse plays in suicides - they say the number of women's suicides that are being are linked to domestic abuse is being severely underreported in police statistics. Figures from the National Police Chiefs Council's Domestic Homicide Project have shown for the last two years that there were more victims of domestic abuse who took their own lives in England and Wales than were killed by their partner. Research by a suicide prevention programme in Kent led by Tim Woodhouse is suggesting the figures could be much higher. We hear from Tim and Dr Hannana Siddiqui, Director of Policy, Campaigns and Research at Southall Black Sisters.Actor Kate Fleetwood talks about her latest role as the angry, vindictive Witch in Stephen Sondheim’s fairy tale musical Into the Woods. She’ll be singing live and telling Clare about playing the villain, the challenges of this demanding singing role and why Shakespeare holds an important part of her life.Megan Boxall is running the coastline of Britain, hoping to complete 200 marathons in 200 days. She joins us live from the Scottish Highlands - the latest stage of her challenge - to update us on her progress so far and the people she has met along the way.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Claire MacDonald, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello, and welcome to a brand new week on Woman's Hour. Great to have your company.

Nadia Hussein became a household name when she won the Great British Baker. of a decade ago. And since then, she's brought her cooking flair to TV shows and over a dozen cookbooks. Along the way, she's been refreshingly honest about her own mental health and how, as a Muslim woman, there's an expectation she should maybe show gratitude for the success she's achieved. Well, Nadia has a brand new cookbook out about comfort food that can be cooked quickly and eaten slowly. Nadia joins me in the studio. I would love to hear from you this morning though. Tell me about the food that has brought you comfort and solace and what memory it triggers. Maybe it was a difficult personal moment and that dish at that time helped restore you.

And maybe it's special because of the person who cooked it for you. You can text the program. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour and you can of course email us through our website. How many women have died by suicide after experiencing domestic abuse? While new research has suggested official statistics are massively underreporting the data and could track as few as 6.5% of the true number of cases, we'll bring you more details on that. Which is often the most fun part to play if you are staging a fairy tale.

Well, in the studio this morning, we're joined by an actor who's just been nominated for a Critic Circle Award for playing one. Kate Fleetwood is the witch in Stevenson Times Into the Woods at the Bridge Theatre in London and we have a treat for you. Kate is going to be singing live for us too. And we will take you live to the Scottish Islands to talk to Megan Boxel, who after an MS diagnosis and struggles with mental health decided to run the coastline of the UK, which breaks down to 200 marathons in 200 days. We'll check in with Megan to see how she's getting on.

But first, it's been more than a decade since my next guest, Nadia Hussain, won the Great British Bake Off back in 2015 and soon became a household name. Since then, she's enjoyed a career filled with cookbooks, TV shows. She's even written a series of children's books. Her latest collection of recipes is called Quick Comforts and is billed as feel-good food designed to be made quickly and eaten slowly, something I'm sure that many of us can get on board with. Delighted to say, Nadia Hussain joins us in the Woman's Our Studio. Now, welcome Nadia. Good morning. Fantastic to have you here on a Monday morning.

And it feels like halfway through coming out of a pretty bleak winter, we could all do with more comfort in the world right now. What made you want to put this collection together? Oh, do you know what? I love, for me, most of the food that I cook and make at home is comfort food. And I think it's interesting now because I can really understand and a pre-a- what comfort means now that my kids are a lot older because one by one they're sort of moving out, going to uni. And like now I see, you know, when I call them, I'm like, what shall I have cooked ready for you when you come home?

And it's, and you realize like that's what it, that's all they want. They want to come home and they just want to eat something really yummy. And so it's more than just food. For sure. It's kind of what it represents. For me, it's like it's just, it's, it's the memories attached to food. It's the way it makes you feel. And it's also, it's just that it's a hug.

It's a hug without giving you a hug. And I suppose for me, you know, I grew up in a home where food was the way we showed emotion, especially for my mom. Like she was, my mom's not a massive hugger. But when you go and see her, she will feed you. And that's her way of saying, I love you. And I think there's something about the kind of language of food that is so beautiful. And how was that a comfort to you?

Because we have spoken about, you know, the kind of emotional distance that you had with your mother. Yeah. But that's how she expressed your love. Her love to you. Oh, absolutely. Like, I feel her love and it's not, I suppose it's almost tainted in expectation because I think, oh, well, that's how we should show love with hugs and I love use. But actually, the way my mum showed love and the way her mom showed love was through food. and essentially I'm doing the exact same thing.

Differences I say I love you a lot and it irritates my kids. And they're like, all right, we know. Get lost. Just cook me something. Do you have different categories of food, for example, from dishes that make you feel warm and cozy to those. This is what we're asking, the woman's our listeners this morning, a place of refuge of solace,

maybe when you've gone through a particular trauma or internal conflict. Are there moments in your sort of food journey that come back to you? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think when I think about lots of, especially growing up, when I think about my, my dad, like when my dad used to, whenever we were sick, my dad used to make the best mashed potatoes. And he would add so much butter. It would like, it would pool at the edge of the plate. And it would just like he would make it and he would mash it down really, really well. And if you were sick, he would make you mashed potatoes. And I think every time I eat mashed potatoes, I think of my. dad. So even if it's the memories that are attached to the food. So yeah, there's always

something. And I think what's lovely is that as my kids get older, now I see it in them. They're like, oh, do you remember that time when this happened and you made this? And it could have been just a coincidence, but they've attached the food to the memory. Yeah. Let's talk about, let's get into, there's so much I want to ask you about. But let's look at the book now. It's all about making delicious food quickly. Many of us are time poor. I have a big family and you get bored with making the same things, but you do actually want to make food for your kids that they enjoy. As you say, it's a demonstration of, hey, you know, I've taken the time for you.

I've made you something nice. But sometimes it's really, really hard to do that in the busy lives that we lead. So this is a useful book, isn't it? Because it's understanding the business of everybody's lives and how you put something tasty on the table that isn't going to take too much time. Yeah, I mean, I'm always and have always been about. convenience. It's always been about convenience for me and doing things as quickly as possible. I love being in the kitchen. Don't get me wrong. But I am also a serial hobbyist. I love,

there's not one hobby that I don't partake in. So I love spending time doing those things. But I also want to cook delicious food. And I'm really aware of that, especially with sort of just, I just know there are people out there like me who don't have tons of time and just want to cook delicious food. that doesn't take up, you know, every minute of the day, or you don't want to spend three days in the kitchen. So I'm very much about sort of canned foods, frozen foods, dried ingredients, that kind of stuff and using those things to make life a little bit quicker. There have been other books, haven't there, where someone will say,

oh, it'll take you this length of time. And then you look at the ingredients list and think, but I've got to go to the supermarket before I make that. So you're very much like, you can do this from your cupboard. Totally. There's nothing in there that you probably don't already have. have in your cupboard. And I'm very much like when I pick up a cookbook, if there's a recipe that's got sort of 18 ingredients and I've got to go buy 15 of those, I always kind of question, now if I don't

like this recipe, I'm left with 15 ingredients that I now don't know what to do with. So I'm very much like if I don't like the first recipe, I'm probably not going to like the book. So, but everything in here is just, it's yummy, it's delicious and it's simple and easy and pretty much guarantee that you've got all the ingredients at home. And again, we have an air fryer in our kitchen. It's very much the teenage go-to. But you actually, I mean, I'm ashamed to say sitting in front of you, Nadia, probably a lot of people listening, you use the air fryer to reheat stuff, to cook stuff quickly.

You'd rarely do recipes in the air friar. So is that another kind of reality check? You think this is people's lives. You know, let's do something they can use this quickly and make a proper meal. For sure. Absolutely. You can use an air friar to not just reheat, but you can also cook. You can do a really good steak in an air friar.

So, you know, like you can. I just think that right now, this is what people are using. And so we should try and rather than judge people and say, oh, why are you using an air fryer and you should be using the oven? You know, like, let's put our judgment away. Let's put that aside and go with what people are using. I have an air friar. My kids love it.

They absolutely love it. You can reheat things. You can put a bit of salmon in there. Delicious. You know, like it's quick and it's easy. Why not? Why not? So, yeah, there's a whole chapter for air friar.

I love the fact you're also bringing about deep fat frying as well. I don't need to go out and buy a deep fat fry that, do I? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. And I think that's one. If I could write an entire book on deep fat frying, I would. There would be an encyclopedia because I love deep fat frying because I get people asking me, when there's a recipe about deep fat frying, they say, can I, can I do that in the ear fry?

Or can I shallow fry that? Or can I put that in the oven. I go, you can, but it's not going to be the same recipe because deep frying gives you that texture, that nothing else will. And I often get people asking me, so what do I do with all the leftover oil? I have leftover oil that I know I can't use. I have a vat in the garage.

I put the oil in the vat. Let that all, after about a week, all the smells and stuff go away from, they just dissipate from the oil. And then I use it to waterproof my fences. I was going to ask you what you do with it. I would never have guessed that. Waterproof your fences.

Waterproof your fences. Stick it in a bucket outside. This is your full of absolutely information we can use this morning, Nadia. That is absolutely brilliant. You've been in the public eye for over a decade now, and you've written so many books. And I wonder how you see the shifting landscape when it comes to how we cook

and how we engage with influencers, for example. There's an awful lot of kind of cooking advice that comes at us on social media. You can do this. It's quick and easy. Not always, because I've tried a few of things. those. But how do you feel about that? Because it's interesting that you're saying embrace frying where we're always being told, go the other way. You need this protein. You need

this, that and the other. How do you feel about all of that? Oh, well, I don't really, yeah, I just, I stopped caring such a long time ago that I don't really listen to like, yeah, because this is the problem. We get told so often that you, this is what you should be doing in high protein and all. I get that. That's fine. That's all good. But oh my goodness, can we just live a little, please, can we just be happy? Do you know, sometimes I look at some of these things and I think, can we just live? Can we just be happy? And deep fat frying makes me very happy. But I appreciate that there's a landscape right now and it's become our currency, almost, social media and TikTok and all of that and people use that to learn. I think that's a brilliant thing. I don't think that's a bad

thing at all. But I have and always will be encouraging people to get in the kitchen, to enjoy being in the kitchen, and it doesn't have to, and remind them that it doesn't have to be laborious or difficult and that you can make something really delicious at the end of it. And it doesn't have to be social media worthy. Like it doesn't have to be beautiful. It can just be simply delicious and easy to make. And I think that is something that I would always encourage. And I will always encourage being happy in the kitchen. And that's all I want. Like, that's all I've ever wanted when I've written a cookbook is like, just be happy in the kitchen. Talking to being happy, you have spoken very openly and here on Woman's Hour as well in the past about your

struggles with anxiety and depression, which absolutely help people listening feel less alone. How has being that open and, you know, very personal, how has it helped you? It hasn't always helped me. No. It hasn't always helped me because I think that was a big decision for me to openly talk about my mental health struggles. And often when you're in the public eye, people attach that with your mental health struggle and say, oh, it's just another person talking about their mental health struggles because they want to sell a book or they want to promote something

or they're just doing it for clout. And that's like, I don't think people realize how hard it is to talk about your mental health and whether you're in the public eye or not. But as a Muslim woman in this industry, It was really important for me to talk about it because there aren't that many people like me out here talking about it and especially growing up in the community that I did. Like there's no language, there's no vocabulary for it. So it was really important for me to speak out because it would take just one conversation for people like me to look at me and say, oh, actually, so it does exist. And so there's that feeling of kind of not, that feeling of not being alone.

Yeah, so it's really important. You have spoken about somebody in your position being, I mean, I mentioned it coming into this, about feeling the need to feel or look grateful for the opportunities you've had throughout your career. Do you still feel you have to do that? Or there is this pressure to feel that? Oh, for sure. I mean, I think from the moment I've done this job, like ever since I've kind of stepped into all of this, there's been this, I've always felt this underlying pressure to prove myself,

to prove how British I am, how Bangladeshi. I am, how Muslim I am. Like there's always someone who, there's always a group of people who want me to be, like, the perfect version of myself, which I will never be because I'm not, I'm a human being and I'm not perfect. But there's definitely a pressure to feel like gratitude.

But what if you're just good at what you do? What if you are just good at what you do? And it's not luck and you don't have to be grateful, you know? And I always kind of maintain that I, have to work 10 times harder for half as much, you know, half of, half of what I've, I mean, what I've achieved in the 10 years, like I've worked 10 times harder than most people, and I've achieved half of what they've achieved, if that. And that's because I'm constantly having to prove myself. Do you tire of the fact that because you're a Muslim woman, you're in some way

seen as a spokesperson or a representative for a lot of things, whereas other people in your position, may not even get asked about anything to do with their faith or their ethnicity. Does that come your way? Yeah, I mean, of course, absolutely it does. But there's also, it's not just my faith or my ethnicity. It's also who, you know, at the very beginning when I started doing this, people would ask me, so who's got the kids? Like, who's looking after the kids?

I'm like, well, what they want me to say for a tagline is that I've chained them to the dining table and left them with a bowl of water and some food, dry food. But why ask that question? But I think if I was a man, I wouldn't get asked that question. Also, lots of, you know, I get asked about, oh, how do you stay so slim, even though you cook all this food? People don't ask men those questions. So it's not just about my faith and my ethnicity.

It's also about how I look and where my kids are and all of that. So there's a huge problem. There's a huge problem. It's the female questions as well. Maybe we should start asking male chefs those questions. We should really. Let's do that. About their waistlines and where their children are.

Last year you spoke about the fact that your BBC TV series wasn't being renewed on social media in several interviews as well. You said you had felt like you were ticking a box. As time has passed, do you still have the same point of view on all of that? Yeah, totally. Totally. I think naively didn't want to believe that my time would be up. I didn't want to believe that. But there was a point when my husband just said, yeah,

you know, there's going to come a point where they're not going to need you anymore. And it just felt like that. It just feels a lot like there is an element of like, my time is up and the tick box exercise has been done and it's over. but there's a lot more in me left. You know, there's a lot of, there's so much that I can, I know that I can give, but it's just not, yeah, like it's one of those things.

It's a really tricky one because I think for me, I felt like I could do this forever. And I probably could, but there is an element of tick boxing, tick box exercise that I can't come away from. I've got a statement from the BBC, which I'll read in a minute. Just before I let you go, though, you've got three children, your eldest is 20. he's about to leave. Are you sending him out into the world equipped with decent cooking skills?

I mean, have all of your kids been, have an interest in cooking because of your job? My kids would never do what I do. So they wouldn't do it as a job. But they absolutely, like my eldest is, I'm not worried about him. He will be absolutely fine. He's a really good cook. Makes the most amazing steak, like to order, like however you want it. He's incredible. Second son, he'll happily eat, do the dishes, not so into. cooking, which is fine. There was always going to be one. Yeah. And the youngest loves baking. And she's actually quite good at cooking as well. So they'll be fine.

Yeah. You can pack them off with your new book, Nadia. Yeah, and an air friar. No worries at all. And an air friar. I don't know they allow them in halls of residence. But anyway, it's been fantastic talking to you. Thank you so much for coming in, Nadia. And her latest cookbook is called Quick Comforts. And it's available to buy now. And just to say, we did ask the BBC for a comment. They said this. After many wonderful series, we made the same. the difficult decision not to commission another cookery show with Nadia Hussein for the time being. We remain open to working with her in the future.

Nadia, thank you so much for coming in and joining us on BBC Women's Hour. Thank you for all your texts on your comfort food as well. I have a lovely memory of my husband making me scrambled eggs on toast. On the first morning, I was back home after having our first daughter. I was back in my own bed, tired but happy. And that meal was the best thing I have ever. ever tasted. Keep those text coming in 848-4-4 on

your comfort food and the memory that it brings back. Now a series of stories in The Guardian this week are spotlighting the role that domestic abuse plays in suicides. They say the number of women suicides that are being linked to domestic abuse is being very severely underreported in police statistics. Figures from the National Police Chiefs Council, Domestic

Homicide Project have shown for the last two years that there were more victims of domestic abuse who took their own lives in England and Wales than were killed by their partner. But the research by a suicide prevention programme in Kent is suggesting those figures could be much, much higher. To discuss this, I'm joined on the programme by the programme manager, sorry, Tim Woodhouse from the University of Kent, who led that research and Dr Hannah Siddiqui, Director of Policy Campaigns and Research at Southall. Black sisters. Welcome both of you. Good morning. Tim Woodhouse, let's start with you. You've called this a national scandal in your interview with The Guardian this morning. Why do you describe it like that?

Well, I think it's a national scandal because it's going, it's so unrecognised, and so we're not just paying enough attention to it. So the research that we've led in Kenton Medway has highlighted that 16% of all of our suicides locally have been impacted by and are amongst victims of domestic abuse. If that 16% is replicated nationally, and I don't think there's any reason why it won't be, then that could be over 900, up to 1,000 victims of domestic abuse

taking their own lives every year. To me, that is a national scandal. As a country, as a system, we're just not doing enough about it. Why do you think there's such a discrepancy with what you discovered and the police figures? I think it's probably a very boring methodology issue. So I think we need some sort of national task force to really get a grip to this,

get the best and brightest minds in the country, from policy makers to academics, to researchers, to charity workers, to people with lived experience, to treat domestic abuse-related suicides as that national scandal and try and understand what is happening at a national scale. I think I'm really proud of the work that we've done in Kent Medway, working with Kent Police, working with Kent County Council to understand these figures locally, but we now need to understand whether these are actually replicated nationally. And as I've said before, I don't think there's any reason why they won't be. Hanana, let's talk to you now.

Southall Black Sisters have been campaigning for abuse-related suicide to be recognised as homicide for more than 40 years. And you actually call for an amendment to the Crime and Policing Bill last year. What action have you seen on this? Well, I think if we go back to the question about the underrepresentation or the underestimization of suicide, abuse-related suicide. I think it's linked to the fact that the police don't investigate suicide's murder.

They don't treat it as a crime in the first instance, so they don't do the investigation that's necessary to establish the crime. So that's why they're probably underrepresented in the national figures. and also I think the health service are probably not doing enough in terms of picking up the cases of abuse-related suicide. The National Suicide Prevention Strategy only sees domestic abuse as an indicator of suicide. They don't actually see it as treated as a priority group that requires intervention. And I think that the importance of the National Task Force, I think, is important, but also national research to find out the scale of suicide, which, from our experience, we feel are much greater than it's realized. We specialize the needs of black minorities and migrant women, and we think that they're overrepresented in these suicide figures because of racism, because of cultural barriers.

that they may face, such as unabased abuse. So they find it harder to escape abuser situations, and they may internalize their depression, the struggle with mental health, which is caused by abuse, which then may lead to suicide and self-harm. So I think that suicide should be seen as homicide, but we should also look at self-harm and attempt to suicide,

and they should be treated as murder. There's a law that was introduced in France that does recognise it as murder. We had over 50 MPs who have supported our amendment to the crime and policing bill. So I think there is a lot of support there for a change in the law itself. Tim, is this what you saw in your research, brilliantly laid out there by Hanana, that there's a slow ramp up to this position and it is abuse? Yeah, absolutely. So I come from a public health background, so I absolutely understand that the criminal justice response is really important. We need to understand, we need to get the police to really prosecute these perpetrators of abuse. And whether that's with murder or manslaughter, I'm not a legal expert, but absolutely we should be holding these perpetrators to account. I think also, and in addition to that, we also need to be looking at prevention. How do we stop these 900 victims of domestic abuse, taking their own lives, in the first place. And I think there's something really simple that we could be doing. So every

domestic abuse charity, every social worker, every person who's on the front line working with domestic abuse victims, if they just got into a habit routinely asking them, are you thinking about suicide? That would be a really simple way of knowing whether or not they were, in fact, thinking about suicide. And we're reluctant to talk about suicide because there's lots of stigma around it. We're afraid to think about, oh, actually, what do we do? They say yes. So we need to train upskill social workers, frontline professionals, people working with charities, to have those difficult questions and know what to do with the answer when it comes back.

But I think it would make such a difference. If we actually knew what was going on in the heads of those people, so when they're thinking, if they're thinking about suicide, we actually know about it. Then we can create safety plans, which not only address the risk of murder from the perpetrator, but also addresses the risk of suicide from themselves. Hanana, the NPCC's domestic homicide project has now recorded over 1,000 domestic abuse-related deaths over a four-year period. So does that figure indicate that the police are starting to understand more, do you think? Yes, but they're not being treated as a crime.

Right. So we've got very few cases they're going to court. There's only been one conviction for manslaughter. And others have been more, you know, coercive controlling behaviour. we've having to fight with the police basically to get them to treat it as a crime. We have to go through the coroner's court as an alternative route to try to raise the issue of unlawful killings. In a recent case of Michelle Sparman, for example,

who committed suicide while she was in a mental health hospital, as she was driven to kill ourselves, we believe because she felt abused by her former partner. And the coroner's recognizing, that she has a justified feeling abused. But she wasn't really picked up by the system. She was, she was, did seek counseling, but then was referred to a special service.

There was a finding of neglect by the mental health ward where she died. Again, they hadn't addressed domestic abuse. So I think that a lot of the suicides could be prevented in the first place, but where they do occur, you know, we must be investigating them as a crime. I'm going to bring in a statement now from the National Police Chiefs Council PCC. They say this. The work of the Domestic Homicide Project directly drives change and action to improve the way we respond to deaths related to domestic abuse,

introducing training for officers to raise awareness of the link between domestic abuse and suicide and changing policy to ensure there are explicit. procedures to prompt officers and consider domestic abuse in unexpected deaths or suspected suicides and carry out system checks. And also the data reinforces the critical need for policing to work with other agencies to identify those at risk of being both a perpetrator or a victim of domestic abuse. A preventative approach is the only way to stop the widespread harm of domestic abuse in all its forms. And Tim, I guess that's what you're saying. We need to join all of this up in the agencies that these women come into contact with

so they can get the help they need before it's too late. I mean, the police is one thing, but there's so much more that needs to be done here. Absolutely. And I would like to give credit to the National Police Chiefs Council report. They have helped raise the visibility of this issue. I mean, they're stat that you read out right at the start, that more victims of domestic abuse are dying by suicide. suicide than are being murdered by their intimate partner. That is shocking, I think. I don't think

the sector, the society, the government has recognised that in the past. And so now what do we do about that? How do we prevent these suicides? And I do think we need to start treating domestic abuse related suicides as important as protecting victims from the perpetrator. We absolutely need to carry on protecting people from the perpetrators. Of course, we do. We need to invest more into that. We need to keep doing it. But in addition, we also need to now start investing into services which keep people safe from suicide.

And they sometimes are different things. That's better access to mental health support for victims of domestic abuse. That's mental health support embedded within frontline domestic abuse charities. So the victims aren't stuck on waiting lists. No, carry on. And we need, as I say earlier, we just need to get better. at asking victims of domestic abuse whether they're thinking about suicide

because if we don't ask, we won't know and then we won't be able to support them. Dr. Nana Siddiqui, final word to you then. I mean, presumably you would support everything Tim Woodhouse just said there. Yes, so I do, but I also think that it should be central to the suicide prevention strategy

as well as in the violence against women and girls strategies and has to be linked with not just with training and more guidance, but as Tim said, in terms of funding of frontline services, particularly by and force services, the specialist services that specialize in the needs of black, minorities of migrant women, because we do think that they are most likely overrepresented. We know from my experience, we know from previous research, Asian women were three times more likely to kill themselves as a result of abuse. We need more up-to-date

research on that kind of data to really address these issues. And I welcome the reports and the works that have been done by the police in terms of the research and by by Kent University. But I think that there is a need for a national research to look at the national picture and a change in the law. So I think we need to look at prevention, of course, but we also need to address the issue when it happens. Because by treating its decline, we change attitudes. You change the response of agencies as well in how they address the problem in the first place. So I think that it's circular. You know, prevention also happens through education

because the criminal justice system is also taking it more seriously. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Dr. Hanana Sadiqi, Director of Policy Campaigns and Research at Southall Black Sisters. And also we were joined by Tim Woodhouse from the University of Kent. And just to say, if you have found any of this discussion, has been difficult to listen to. And you feel like you need some support. You can visit the BBC Actionline page.

for links to organizations and help lines. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed.

And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, This is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, my next guest live in the Woman's Hour studio is actor Kate Fleetwood,

and she brings her considerable talent into the studio along with a freshly minted critic circle nomination for her role as the witch in Stephen Sondheim's Into the Woods currently playing at the Bridge Theatre in London. The musical, if you don't know it, combines a comically dark retelling for very, very much. fairy tale, Cinderella, Jack and the Beanstalk, Rapunzel and Little Red Riding Hood, and explores what happens after the happily ever after. As in many fairy stories, the catalyst driving the action is, of course, the witch. And in this new production, she causes havoc and casts spells to get her wish. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Kate. Hello, thank you for having me.

You've gone quite a journey in this musical. And let's start with the physical, because you start off as you would expect a witch to look. you're out there as this witch, aren't you? Yeah, we wanted to, excuse me, it's a bit early to talk. We wanted to really sort of dig into the sort of cultural dread of what a witch represents. And I was really keen. We look at the witches, sort of, there are three witches. There's the first witch, the hag, as it were, in inverted commas.

The second one is the moment of transformation. and the third is the later which that you meet in the second half. And the first which we were really keen on Tom Scott, our incredible designer, who I could not have created this performance without, and also Jordan Fine, our amazing director. We really wanted to delve into the sort of the contrast between her, not being able to move, but also being able to be quite swift and nimble at the same time as being quite caught.

and we wanted to, I'm very strapped up and exaggerated, so like a kind of Louise bourgeois sculpture. We wanted this sort of to feel like a sculptured piece of stone or something that would live in the woods. Because the first iteration, well, the first, she's a gardener, basically. There's no sort of particular trope for her in the storytelling. It's a sort of, she's not as princess or she turns out to be a gardener. she's lost her beans and she's been punished having transgressed. You know, it's quite interesting about how female transgression is visualised in our production in the form of the witch. So I wanted to exaggerate the form of the female, the scary cultural dread of that witch.

So I have a bald cap because we also wanted to really drill into the notion of hair in the piece. You know, the beauty of Rapunzel's hair, the fact that she's. She's lost it, that they need it for the potion. And everyone, there's this sort of notion of the importance of beauty and the hair. So I start with a ball cap and I'm strapped with lots of ropes. So we wanted to sort of know what that was like to feel as a woman to be, a powerful woman, to be strapped down, to be transgressive and to look at the transgressional form of a woman. And to tap into that notion of the cultural dread.

of a woman. So I wanted to really push that far. So I've got an enormous breast that hangs like about a foot down from... You can't miss it. You can't miss it. I have an extended sort of bottom area and I use my body in a way that is... It's very physical. It is indeed very physical. It's an incredible performance. It really is.

And you researched witches, didn't you? Yeah, of course. I would research every... show every job I do. And, you know, you're always looking for, in a performance that you want to play. You're looking for the friction and the scratch in the performance. That's the thing that will attract me as a performer to a part. And so, you know, the friction is that the witch is incredibly powerful. But she was once a goddess of the witch, Circe, the goddess of transformation, herbs and magic.

And but over the years, over the centuries, millenniums, you know, the notion of a powerful woman who perhaps lives alone, who has powers beyond others, that they are scary forms and scary people. And of course we can then, you know, see where that might go. And so, yeah, the witch as a notion is very deep and dense. but and it's also not we she's morally grey you know she she

kidnaps Rapunzel and puts her in a tower so we can't shy away from the fact that she she has some sort of dark sides to her but that's a twisted form of love it's a twisted form of love and it's a twisted because she was

abandoned by her mother and she the parent the unparented didn't know how to reparent and that that she then becomes an overbearing, overprotective mother, and she goes on a journey, the witch, to learn what having and wanting and seeing and being is

and letting and letting and being careful about telling stories. And that's the whole the show is sort of, that's the depth of the show's message is that, you know, careful what you say because children will listen, careful how you say it, because they will see and they will learn. and they may not obey, but they will listen. And you be careful of the tale that you tell them

because they will carry that through and carry that forward. And that you can't control people's response to you, but you have to be careful how you are. Be aware of your own actions rather than being dogmatically telling people how to behave. It's so interesting because I know that sometime had a difficult relationship with his mother. Foxy, her name was. Foxy, her name was you know that. Foxy Sondheim.

What a woman. I know. But do you think that's why, I mean, I sat there as a mother with my son actually in the audience saying, gosh, this is, it's a text that makes you ask questions about your own life. I'm glad it did. Yes, it does. And you sort of come into the theatre, I think, as an audience thinking, oh, it's about fairy tales. And then it grabs you in the second half. Interestingly, when they first opened the show out of New York, James Bine and the brilliant James Bine's book and wonderful Stephen Sondheim, New York, New York.

need I say anymore, had to run into the car park to get the audience to come back because they thought it was over in the interval because it does wrap itself up. It feels like that. So then they added to be continued in the end of the first half because the second half it all falls, you could say it falls apart, but actually people learn more about who they are, the questions, the wishes they wanted, the things that they thought they needed. A friend of mine once said, be careful of the shiny things because sometimes they're nigh. That is a great line, isn't it?

Great line. Well, listen, I want to talk to you more. There's so much more to ask, but we're going to hear you now. Yes, shall I give a little bit of context for this song? Yes, do. Follow the witch's song. Tell us. This is called Stay With Me.

And this is the moment that the witch has discovered that Rapunzel has betrayed her by invite, not inviting, but allowing a visitor, the prince to come and see her. And the witch is very... feels very betrayed by this. Okay, well, listen. It's halfway through her journey, so she hasn't learned things either. So she's lost the bald cap and she's actually... Oh, no, I'm still in the bald cap at this stage.

Yes, but I'm on my own journey of learning and enlightenment. It's fantastic. We'll make your way to the piano. Delighted to say that Alex Beechon, your musical director is going to be accompanying you this morning. So let's hear now, Kate Fleetwood from Into the Woods. this is stay with me. This is not me just clapping, it's the entire country listening to this.

That was absolutely incredible. And for people listening, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Alex, thank you as well. Just absolutely fantastic. For people listening, singing isn't even your first skill, isn't it? No, and it's a bit early in the day to do it as well. I've got eight shows to do this week,

so I'm a little nervous to sing this time of day. But you obviously can sing incredibly well, but acting is your... Yeah. Major, isn't it? Yes, it is, it is. But I've always, I've always sung as a child, and I did lots of musicals when I was a little girl.

But it's another skill, and I think as an actor, you know, it's really great to have other things going on. My dad always used to say, you know, gets as many strings to you both as possible. And, you know, for longevity in the industry. But musical theatre is incredibly hard. I think musical theatre performers, some aren't taken as seriously as they ought to be. It's an incredibly disciplined thing to do.

It's incredibly technical. Interestingly, it's a sort of rather solipsistic thing to do because you're only ever worrying about your voice, your body and your tools and things. But the payoff of that is that then you go into the theatre at night and you share that with the audience. So ironically, you don't share it with your family and friends because you can't talk to anybody in the day, but you do every night then share it with the audience.

Buy a ticket, I'll talk to you then. And your cast, I have to say, it's so, so funny this production, it's laugh out loud and the range of talent. It's just amazing. I mean, I sit in these wings every night and each one of them brings tears to my eyes. whether it's laughter through levity or mirth or through sheer brilliance.

And I'm incredibly, incredibly honoured to be alongside this ensemble. It's an incredible young talent in there as well, isn't it? Amazing, amazing. Well, listen, best of luck with the nomination. I'm coming back. I pay once. I'm going to pay again. It was that good. Yeah, and it looks incredible as well, beautiful design by Tom Scut.

And then the whole crew and the whole team at the bridge has been brilliant. Well, it's been lovely meeting you. Alex as well. Thank you so much for coming in. What a wonderful way to start a whole new week on Woman's Hour. Kate Fleetwood and Into the Woods is running at the Bridge Theatre in London until May the 30th. Now, thank you for all your texts on comfort food, food that brings you solace. My comfort food is oven-baked rice pudding, sometimes made with raisins. My lovely ma'am made it, especially for after Sunday lunch with our family. and my man died recently. And Woman's Hour has brought her to me today

to feel her big hug again. I'm really sorry to hear that, but thank you so much for getting in touch. This texter says, every time I make lentil soup, I think of my nana. She added dumplings to hers, and recently I tried this too for the first time

and served the soup with dumplings to my grandson. It felt like I was passing on the love. And this text, what a joy it was to hear. Nadi this morning, Nadi Hussein, always a breath of fresh air. I love her honesty. Her openness and her recipes, always an inspiration in every way. Long may she reign in any way she chooses.

That is David, who's 76 and listening in Tewksbury. Morning, David, and thank you so much for getting in touch. Now, from one amazing woman or two amazing women to another one, wherever you are listening to Women's Hour this morning, I'd wager you'd be hard push to beat the view that Megan Bauxhall has woken up to this morning in the Scottish Highlands on the Kinearloch estate, Megan is a financial journalist who is running the coastline of Britain aiming for 200 marathons in 200 days,

which if successful will make her the fastest woman to run the coastline of Britain. She began in October on Seiswell Beach in Suffolk, and she's planning to finish on that same beach in May this year. She's following the coast path, keeping the sea to her left-hand side for a full clockwise loop of the island with a handful of ferry crossings covering about 10 miles of. of Waterway. And Megan is currently halfway through. And I said she's in, she's in the Highland of Scotland and delighted to say she joins us now via Zoom. Megan, welcome to Women's At.

Thank you. What an amazing view out of the window. Just describe to us where you are. Yeah, no, it is actually. It's a really amazing place. So I'm actually on the Arden-Mirkin Peninsula, which is the most westerly point of mainland Britain. And I'm in, it's called the King-Earloch Estate, which is, yeah, it's an amazingly beautiful place. Not an awful lot of people around here, but lots of highland cows and deer and goats. It's an incredible story and quite an undertaking. So let us all into why you decided to do this.

So my uncle walked around the coastline of Britain. I was 10 when he did it, so it was about 23 years ago. And it was, he had been diagnosed with Parkinson's, disease and it was such an inspiration what he did and obviously it was so cool um and since then it's sort of been a little spark in the back of my mind that i'd like to do something similar and when i got into endurance running and long distance running i thought maybe i could run it i didn't know if it had been done it has been done but i i didn't know that until i started looking into it and uh but it uh i'm aiming to be the quickest woman to do it but i think with something like this a

a big a big mission it needs a why and i never really had a why um until uh 2024 i went through a bit of a rough time especially with my mental health um i i really struggled with um yeah with with mental illness and um yeah bad bad thoughts not really wanting to be here anymore and it was when i started feeling a bit better um that i realized that that could be my why uh for running britain to um to, yeah, run the coast of Britain, celebrate Britain, celebrates coastline and its people, do something really, really positive and raise money for the Samaritans who were amazing for me.

What makes it even more incredible what you're doing because you were diagnosed around that time with MS. So is that linked to your mental state? Do you think that's quite a hard thing to hear, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, obviously it didn't help. I'm very cautious and conscious not to sort of pin mentalness on any one thing. I think poor mental health.

I mean, mental illness is an illness. And for me, I have struggled in my mental health for a very, very long time without really realizing. And yeah, obviously, an MS diagnosis was not the nicest thing in the world. And it definitely didn't help. But also, I get very good neurology care. I'm under care at Queen Square. So it doesn't really affect me. Yeah, I don't really like thinking about it, but it's, yeah, physically it doesn't really affect me at the moment.

And actually, I'm doing mentally, I'm now much, much better. And even though obviously the MS is still worse. So, yeah, it wasn't the only thing, but it definitely wasn't. I mean, your journey so far, how has it been? And how is it helping you in the context of everything you've done? has told us. Oh, I mean, it's just the most amazing thing I've ever done, mainly because of the people. And I think that's something that I'm really surprised at how wonderful the experiences from a seeing the whole of Britain, seeing what amazing people we have. I hear a lot in the news about

Britain being in a bad place and Britain struggling economically and all sorts of things. But that's not what I'm seeing. I'm just seeing, I'm seeing the best of people. I'm seeing the best of Britain. and I get frustrated that I, that's not the impression I think is given on Britain at the moment because it's an amazing place and there's so much amazing going on here. And yeah, it's just been so uplifting. Because you are a financial journalist. So you've got an interest into commerce and business and work. And what have you spotted as you've gone around the country so far?

I mean, just entrepreneurial spirit is, fantastic here in Britain. I think we don't shout about it enough. I mean, I can't even count the amount of pop-up saunas I've seen. It's just, I think it's one of those things that's come into into being in the last few years. It's incredible. They're everywhere. And it's obviously, it's not just pop-up saunas. We've got so many farms and fishermen and, I mean, renewable energy golf courses, so much here on our coastline. And I think, yeah, celebrating all of that. And, and yeah, shouting about what is good and all the people who live here

and drive all that positivity is, yeah, it's been, it's really amazing. And obviously the running is great and I love it and I'm seeing so much natural beauty. But yeah, it is really the people that are making it so special. Are you getting support from people along the way because we often, especially on Women's Hour, cover the safety aspect of women out running on their own.

own. Have you had any sort of second thoughts about going out there on your own? Actually, not at all. And it's really, it's really interesting because I do get that question quite a lot. And I think that is something that maybe stops women wanting to do big projects like this, although a lot of women do. But maybe stops women shouting about it as well, because maybe we don't want to promote the fact that we're out there running on our own. But I have, I think it's another thing about seeing such good in people at the moment. I'm feeling very safe. I don't feel at all like. Like, yeah, I don't feel at all like what I'm doing isn't safe. But I am being supported at the moment.

I have a friend and a camperman. So she's doing, she's doing, yeah, all the sport. I mean, she's doing everything for me other than the running. And she's doing some of the running as well. And completely coincidentally, she actually grew up here on the King Gallup State. So lovely to come back to her home as well. So, yeah, thank you, Heather. I know she's just about to say, we need to give this woman a name.

And you've had office of people saying, well, I'll run with you if you want. Yeah. Yeah, loads of people have come out and join me. And I've met so many people who I think will be friends for life, who I didn't know before doing this. And yeah, and I've run with amazing, amazing runners. A lot of them, amazing female runners. And that's been, yeah, great.

You've also spoken about how you think, or maybe you know, that women are particularly good at this kind of endurance running. And yet we don't talk enough about. about that. No, and I've been talking about this a lot because I have been slightly frustrated about the fact that I feel like I want to shout more about, it's not me I want to shout about, it's about Britain and I can't, I often can't seem to find the words or find the audience. And I do feel like men are just better at shouting at their own, shouting about their own things and women are. I've spent some time running with an amazing female ultra runner called Sarah Perry,

who is another one who I didn't know about, even though I'm a runner before I started doing this. And she's incredible. She recently broke a world record. And there's so many amazing women like Sarah who I've met since doing this. And yeah, an amazing woman who've done big challenges like this. So, yeah, I'm hoping that more little radio snippets like this will help because, yeah, it's nice as well. I think I've had a few younger people, children who have got girls, really, who have sort of come across what I'm doing. And I find that really nice thinking that maybe they'll think, oh, girls can do something like this. Well, you're proving that you can and it's great that you're publicising it on Women's Hour this morning. Where can we follow you, Megan?

So I'm on Instagram, megan.orgon. I've got a website as well and a just giving page. So, yeah, trying to keep all of that updated as well because, yeah, as I say, that's the main point of doing this, celebrating Britain and, yeah, and raising awareness for all the positivity that there is here in this country. Well, you're doing a fine job. Thank you so much.

Good luck with the rest of it. We'll come and see you on that beach and size well in May. Megan Boxel there. And, of course, again, if you've been affected by any of the issues raised there, Go to the BBC action line. Lots of links to support there. On tomorrow's program, Nula is going to be talking to Judith Perignon,

the co-writer of Giselle Pelico's memoir, a hymn to life, telling us about the woman at the centre of France's biggest rape trial. Thank you for all of your texts today on comfort food as well. It's absolutely wonderful to get a little window into your life. So that was Woman's Out. Thank you very much for listening.

That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Eleni Jones. And I'm Mark Kermode, and in screenshot, we guide you through the ever-changing landscape of the moving image. I really like any story about self-delusion. My intent is to allow the audience to see the shining through these people's eyes. Meeting those on both sides of the camera. And uncovering fascinating insights into what we watch.

How would you describe the difference between the doppelganger and the clone? Why is it such a cinematic subject? What was your relationship like with your double? Screenshot from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids.

I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. It could definitely just a story.

From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.