Woman's Hour - Nadiya Hussain, Morocco earthquake, Equal pay, Wilderness

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

Last week, Birmingham City Council effectively declared bankruptcy, issuing a section 114 notice, after it admitted an equal pay liability of £760m. Now the GMB, the UK's third largest Trade Union, says female care workers in Sunderland have been underpaid for years compared with the mostly male litter-pickers, and are making a similar claim against their council. Anita hears the latest from Rhea Wolfson, head of the GMB's National Equal Pay Department.Since winning the Great British Bake Off in 2015, Nadiya Hussain has published seven cookery books, presented numerous TV shows and been awarded an MBE for services to broadcasting and the culinary arts. Nadiya joins Anita to talk about her latest book and BBC Two series, Nadiya’s Simple Spices, in which she concentrates exclusively on recipes from her Bangladeshi heritage, and creates recipes with eight spices. The death toll from last Friday’s earthquake in Morocco has reached nearly 3,000 people. Three hundred thousand people are said to have been affected, including 100,000 children. The aftermath of earthquakes poses numerous challenges to women and children who are said to suffer the most during humanitarian emergencies. Anita speaks to Ridwana Wallace-Laher, CEO of the Penny Appeal, who has been working in Morocco, and the actor Laila Rouass, a British-Moroccan representative for Education for All, a charity which provides schooling for girls in Morocco.Wilderness is a new Prime Video psychological thriller series which stars Jenna Coleman and Oliver Jackson-Cohen. It's the story of a young British couple, Liv and Will, who seemingly have it all. But their glamorous new life in New York changes dramatically when Liv learns Will has been seeing another woman. Liv's heartbreak turns into fury and revenge. Anita is joined by Marnie Dickens, the writer and creator of the series. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Today's programme comes with a warning, a hunger warning. The wonder that is Nadia Hussain will be in the studio to talk about her new book, which focuses on the eight spices and the food of her Bangladeshi heritage passed down through the women in her family, the food she grew up eating. Spices, especially for those of us who grew up eating them, are so evocative. The smell of cooking spices really takes me home. So this morning, I would like you all to tell me about the smell

that makes you think of home. Is it a particular spice? The baking of a certain bread or cake or biscuit? Is it the smell of a bubbling bolognese or the Friday night takeaway or salt and vinegar soaked fish and chip paper? That's a potent combo. For me, it's waking up to the smell of onions and cumin softening in butter. That is pure comfort. But what is the smell of home for you? What smell instantly transports you to a place of comfort? And who does it remind you of? Or is it something like the smell of a, wait for it, a completed to-do list? Oh, I've not smelt that one for a while.

Whatever it is, 84844 is the number to text. You can also get in touch via email by going to our website. You can WhatsApp message or indeed voice note me. It's 03700 100 444 and social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. We will also today be getting the latest on the impacts of the catastrophic earthquake in Morocco on women and girls. And I'll be talking to the writer and creator of a new TV thriller. Marnie Dickens will be here to tell me all about Wilderness. That text number, once again, 84844.

The smell that takes you somewhere very comforting. And who does it remind you of? But first, last week, Birmingham City Council effectively declared bankruptcy, issuing a Section 114 notice after it admitted an equal pay liability of £760 million. Now the GMB, the UK's third largest trade union, says female care workers in Sunderland have been underpaid for years

and are making a similar claim. They say that around 1,000 women carers who work for Sunderland Care and Support Limited are effectively paid less than litter pickers. While not directly employed by the local authority, the company is fully owned by Sunderland City Council. GMB claim the company has put the women on lower grades and it stops them getting full pensions benefits. While Ria Wolfson, who is head of the GMB's National Equal Pay Department,

joins me in the studio to bring us up to speed with us on this. Ria, welcome to Woman's Hour. I think we should start by getting a recap of what happened in Birmingham with the Equal Pay case there. So Birmingham has been dealing with Equal Pay for well over a decade. Now in 2012 it lost a really prominent Supreme Court case and then went on to pay out over 1.1 billion pounds in Equ pay liabilities which I would describe as stolen wages from women claimed that the problem was sorted but then back in 2021 our members and organizers started digging into Birmingham and lo and behold they had not fixed

the problem and they continue to not have fixed the problem. So in 2021, our members started lodging a new batch of equal pay claims. We've got 3,000 members that have lodged claims. The council were denying there were any problems until all of a sudden they announced that they were admitting that they owed liabilities upward of £600,000, potentially upward of £700 million. So has what happened in Birmingham led to this latest action in Sunderland? A lot of this recent wave of equal pay cases started in Glasgow. So Glasgow City Council have just basically finished paying out £770 million of liabilities to over 10,000 women.

And as part of that, women got really involved in fighting for pay justice there, because that wasn't handed out by the court. That actually was achieved by 8,000 women going on strike. Carers, teaching assistants, caterers, cleaners took two days of strike action, and it completely changed the dynamic in Glasgow. And that has inspired a new wave of equal pay campaigners and fighters so yes that inspired Birmingham and Birmingham's gone on to trigger campaigns in Coventry, Cumberland, Westmoreland, Dundee, Fife and now Sunderland. So let's talk about the carers in Sunderland I said there in my intro that they are paid less than litter pickers. That's a startling claim. What sort of pay are we talking about? What's the hourly rate? So it depends

because there's lots of different jobs in there. So we're looking at between one and three pounds an hour difference. But the total wages we're looking at are potentially losing between three and five thousand pounds a year in the difference. So it's a really big discrepancy but it's not just pay it's pension and pension is so important so for the sunderland care workers the predominantly women they are getting an employer contribution of three percent their male counterparts indirectly employed with the council are getting an employer contribution of 13 percent that is a huge difference and that adds up over the years so actually we see that the net result of pay discrimination pension discrimination is that older women are the lowest they are the most economically disadvantaged group in society and no wonder if they're facing this throughout their

career. How important is gender in this? It is everything. The pay discrimination practices that we're seeing are very, very clearly gendered. We're seeing, yes, the chronic undervaluation of work predominantly done by women. So, yeah, care, teaching assistants, catering, cleaning, work that I think lots of us would articulate as really understanding the value of, but it isn't reflected in their pay packet it just isn't but it's other practices as well discretionary bonus schemes only afforded to men just additional annual leave only afforded to men. And what's the knock-on effect of that to the women who work as carers in Sunderland that you've been talking to? It's a really important question because I think it's it's very easy to get caught up in talking about the headline figures and a council owes x amount of money and I think it's

really important that we see it as they owe that money because they're stealing it from their women workers because it means every single minute of every single day women workers are going in and being underpaid and why do we work? We work to be able to afford our family life and what does it mean to be underpaid? It means you do more hours than you otherwise would have. You miss more time with your family. We've got a huge case, we've got over 20,000 workers, 20,000 GME members suing ASDA for equal pay. And some of our workers told us then that they're missing,

because of the extra work that they have to do, the extra hours, they're missing time with dying parents, with disabled children that they have to leave at home with no proper care because they can't afford it. If they were working a normal, you know, their proper, just their core hour contract rather than all the overtime they have to do to make end meets, it would be life-changing.

We asked Birmingham women recently what would it mean to be paid equally? And one of the answers was two hot meals. I'd be able to get two hot meals a day. I mean, it is a disgrace that our public services are being built on the back of women who cannot afford two hot meals a day. We have actually got a statement from Sunderland City Council, which I'm going to read out now. They say, we can confirm we have been contacted by the GMB, which says it has concerns about terms and conditions for staff working with Sunderland Care and Support. While we have yet to see full and further details on those concerns, we are very happy to sit down and talk through these matters and seek a resolution. And this has happened because it's a subsidiary company of the council, the care company that they work with, an arm's length company.

Is this at the bottom of a lot of the current claims? It's part of it. Absolutely. We do have a practice at the moment where councils are creating or have historically created these arm's length companies. Glasgow proved through the courts that they're just associated employers. But lo and behold they do tend to be predominantly women workers put into these arm's length services and their terms and conditions and their pay tend to be lower and I think people will come to their own conclusions about whether they were set up to try and avoid equal pay liabilities but it's

certainly causing equal pay problems but there are plenty of in-house workers that are just being chronically undervalued. Think about how much care has changed in the past decade. A home care worker might have traditionally done a bit of shopping, they might have done some housework for clients to keep them company and they are really, really valuable services that have sadly been eroded because

of the cuts but now they're doing really highly skilled clinical work they're doing podiatry, they're. But now they're doing really highly skilled clinical work. They're doing podiatry. They're doing medicine. They're doing palliative care. And their wages just haven't kept up. Are the claims by Birmingham and now Sunderland just the tip of the iceberg?

I mean, Glasgow before that. Everywhere we look, we are finding some form of discriminatory practice. Everywhere we look. And so if there are any employers listening, I would really encourage them not to think of Birmingham as an example and an exception. Sorry, as an exception, but as an example of what practices they should be looking out for, because we are finding them everywhere.

And some people say that these equal pay claims are going to tip many councils who are already facing difficulties. I mean, is this the right time? It is really important that we have a conversation with government about central government funding because the financial situation is completely unsustainable. But we can accept our public services being run on the back of stolen wages from women workers. It's not credible and there's never a wrong time to fight for equal pay. And could the knock-on effect actually result in more job losses that are going to affect women? Our priority is protecting every single job, every single job, because actually our campaigns are not about just fighting for women. They're about making sure that we bring women up, not pull men's terms and conditions down. This is about creating a

workforce where everybody can thrive. But yeah, we have to talk about the money. We have to talk about the money for local government. So what's the solution? The solution is pay out the liabilities and pay them out quickly so that councils don't make the mistake that Glasgow made, which was litigate for a decade, because your bill keeps going up because every minute that a woman goes into work being underpaid,

you owe that money back. Settle them quickly, put in place robust job evaluation schemes and eliminate discrimination forevermore and maintain them and make sure that we get the funding from central government. Raya Wolfson, thank you very much for coming in to speak to me about that. Thank you. 844 is the number to text so many of you getting in touch with um your favorite food smells the things that make you think of home and comfort my favorite food smell is the smell of mints and tatties takes me back to my childhood and my mum's cooking and also to my granny's kitchen in elgin in the 1960s still one of my favourite meals today and Red Island are very happy memories. That's from Anne in Lanark.

At the weekend, my dad would collect field mushrooms early in the morning from the common. The smell of them frying and the promise of a lovely fried breakfast reminds me very much of home. And my memory is of waking up to the smell of curry bubbling on top of the coal-fired boiler. My nan would cook her curry for two days,

adding whatever spices she felt it needed as it went along. Those mornings I was awoken to the smells of cumin, coriander, garlic. And she said a curry which hadn't cooked for two days was not worth lifting a lid for. The house always smelt of curry, winter and summer. Keep your thoughts coming in. I have just been graced with the presence of absolute beauty. I've just looked up and you've taken my breath away.

Since winning the Great British Bake Off in 2015, Nadia Hussain has published seven cookery books, presented numerous TV shows, been awarded an MBE for services to broadcasting and her culinary arts. Her latest book and BBC Two series, Nadia's Simple Spices, is the first to concentrate exclusively on recipes using spices from her Bangladeshi heritage. What a pleasure to welcome you to Woman's Hour.

Oh, you know what? I love coming here and I love talking to you. So I am in my happy place right now. Me too. And look, I've got a copy of your delicious book in front of me. And thank you for getting here. I know I was stuck in traffic on the m1 and I thought I'm never going to get out of here and I really like this is I'm kicking off my day with you and I'm really I was really excited and I was like oh I hope what if I don't make it and I got food for you I know I can

see that I cannot wait should we get we'll we'll open that in a minute okay um let's start with the book um you decided to focus on spices used by your mum your nanny your great nanny yeah uh before her why I could have I suppose I could have done this book at any point um in my career but right now my I kind of a lot of what I do is steered by what my children do and how they're living and how they eat. And right now, my kids have this huge interest in our cooking and they want to know a bit more about spices. And when they cook, they want to use the spices. So for me, I think because they're so interested in it, I thought, you know what, I need to write a book. I need to write this book because often I write for for people but I write for my kids as well I think

this is the book that I know that they're really really they're gonna use they use all of my books but this one is the one that's got all the recipes in there that my mum taught me and some of the ones that my grandma taught me some of the ones that were that are hybrid of some of the recipes that I had from dad's restaurant and and stuff that I cook for my kids now um so it's a mixture of everything that my kids have grown up with so I was like I've got to do it I've got to write this book I was surprised that it's your eighth book I was like really has she not done this before it's taken no no I haven't I haven't I mean like I use spices in all of my cookbooks and I use spices in a lot of my recipes.

But I wanted to dedicate this one specifically to the way my mum cooks and the way my nan cooks. Because often, also, I think lots of people think spices are scary and they mix the two up. They think spices and spicy are the same thing and they're not. They're completely different. You know that. I know that. But lots of people think, well, you grew up with spices. So, of course, you know that. But it isn't complicated. Eight spices. Yes. My grandma uses

it. Tell us which eight. So four whole spices. We've got cardamom, cinnamon, fennel and bay leaves. And then we've got the four ground spices, which are chili, turmeric, cumin and curry powder. That's it. And I can guarantee a lot of you are listening and thinking oh I already have like six of those so if you already have them all you need is a few more and you can make every single recipe in the book and that's I think the difference is that you're not going to get spices to do one recipe you're getting spices to do the entire book. Where do you even start coming up with the ideas? This one was easy because there's lots of stuff that I do all the time. But I think it's just I think that's just the way my mind works. I think I always talk about this grey area. You

know, I grew up in a Bangladeshi home in Britain. And in some ways, as I've become older, I've realised that I've worked my whole life trying to fit into either or group. Like I've tried really hard to be really British, or I've tried really hard to be Bangladeshi and then actually the reality is that I'm a first generation immigrant I'm never going to fit into either of those I'm never going to be Bangladeshi enough I'm never going to be British enough and there's always going to be someone from either group questioning me or asking or talking about or kind of questioning my authenticity so I kind of live in this grey area where I get to do whatever I like. And when did you fully accept that that's where you live in this gray area where I get to do whatever I like and when

did you fully accept that that's where you live when did you realize you need to stop trying to fit I think I definitely at the beginning of my career where there's a lot of push and pull where I kind of like am I British am I Bangladeshi what am I doing where do I belong I think at the beginning of my career whilst writing I'd realize that actually, I'm going to have this push and pull my whole life. So I've got to find a space where I'm really happy and I'm really comfortable. And I think at the very beginning of my career, I realised that I'm going to sit in this grey area where purists don't live, where there are no rules, where I can do whatever I like. And I think a lot of us, I think anyone listening as well, I think there are loads of people out there who will think,

actually, I get it. I think I need to stop the push and pull and just live in this grey space. It takes a lot of confidence to live in that grey space. Yeah. I mean, I say it's the grey space, but really it's pretty colourful. Yeah, of course. There's nothing grey.

No, there's nothing grey about it. It's fun. It's just owning who you are. Yeah, it's owning who I am. And actually, the second I stopped trying to be a part of either or group, great no nothing great about it it's fun owning who you are yeah it's owning who I am and actually like the second I stopped trying to be a part of either or group I started to just really live and just be comfortable in who I am I'm going to take you back because you mentioned it at the beginning of your career eight years yeah that's all yeah I mean does it feel like a long time or is it

flown by in eight years Nadia I feel like your life is some kind of fairy tale that we've watched unfold in front of us. Yeah, I think time flies when you're having fun. I'm having a great time because I get to do a job that I didn't think I would ever... I mean, I never wanted to do this job. It kind of fell into my lap. And I thought, OK, I'll give it a go.

But I remember moments where I was like, I kind of feel sorry for my agent. She's never going to get me any work and she'll never earn a penny. And I thought, never mind. And there we are. We have this amazing team, Muslim woman, Jewish woman. And we just like, we kind of, we take it on. We take everything on.

And yeah, so at the very beginning, I thought this is not going to ever happen. And then I thought six months and I'll be done. And here I am, eight years, and I'm nearly kind of hitting the decade mark, which for me is incredible. I never imagined I'd do it. Yeah, well. Never? No, well, it's been joyful watching you get this far. You know, we can only imagine what's yet to come.

And you mentioned there, Muslim woman, you didn't talk about that much at the beginning of your career, but now you absolutely stand solid in your identity. And you talk a lot about what your identity means. When did that change and why do you talk about it now? I think it's something that I think I've always struggled with it. Like, I think I've always struggled with it through every aspect of my life, through being a teenager, you know, young adulthood. And, you know, I had my kids really young. So, you know, raising my children, I was thinking, I have to be stronger. I have to know who I am. Like I'm raising human beings. If I don't know who I am, who, how will

they know who they are? But I see it now. My identity isn't attached with theirs. They're going through, they are individual people and they will work it all out themselves. They have to, they have to go through that in order to come out the other end. And I realized that actually our identities aren't attached as such. I have to find who I am. And I don't know where I got really comfortable. Something happened over the last sort of, I think, two or three years where I just thought, you know what, actually, what am I doing? Like, I have to be able to express myself as who I am

without worrying about what everybody else thinks. And if through that I don't have a career, that's fine. If through that I lose family, then that's fine. What might you have said that might have lost you your career? Oh, I think just being a Muslim and being proud and being happy as a Muslim, it's almost as if, like, I think there times in the times when you're in the public eye, there are times when I feel like being really honest about just being a proud Muslim woman is something that I should hide and I should be kind of ashamed of just because of what you see in the second you see something happen in the media, a terrorist attack, I feel like I have to answer those questions.

I feel like I'm answerable for them, for those questions. So I think moments like that, I think just hide, just hide, just it'll go away and then you can just be yourself again and it's mine. And I felt that, my family have felt that, my children have felt that. And yet here you are, you know, at the pinnacle of the only muslim woman the woman who looks like you in the heart of the establishment on national tv yeah and yet you're having to think about those things as well yeah i always kind of lay back at night in bed and think to myself if i didn't have to worry about my faith or my culture or if I didn't have to worry about those things,

I could just be even better at my craft. I could just do because... Because you have to think of everything. Yeah, because people like me, and I say people like me, but there's no one like me. No one is in this industry... Who looks like you. Who looks like me.

So, you know, I mean, it's a very middle-aged, Caucasian male industry. And there are moments in my career where I have felt that I didn't belong. People have said, I don't belong. People have said that this is not your space. People have said, you know, so it's been really uncomfortable,

like crying in the toilet type moments. But I've just smiled and gotten, you know, got myself on camera. But here I am today celebrating a book about recipes from my mum from my grandma my mum will have never ever been celebrated my grandma definitely wouldn't have been celebrated my mum my grandma says who am I I can't read or write and I'm like you are everything I often say one of the most overlooked uh demographics in this country are South Asian women of that generation yeah our mothers and our and our grandmothers

I feel like you are doing something to empower them with this book yeah I showed my mom the book what did she say um and she flicked through it my grandma can't see anymore so she kind of like she could she I was talking to her about it so I was kind of explaining things and she said oh that's good and she said she said it's I think it's colourful because she could she can see just a little bit so she she said it's colourful and my mum looked at it and then the first thing my mum looked she kind of like swiped across the page and so first time my mum said to me you look really beautiful first time in your life in 38 years my mum said you look really beautiful I'll have that I don't even care if she doesn't like the recipes I will have that but that's that's Indian mums for you right like um what's mum's name asthma asthma you have brought into this world of beautiful woman absolutely you look

stunning your photographs are always breathtaking um what she said about the recipes oh she loved them she said that's amazing and she kind of looked through the ingredients and she said about the recipes oh she loved them she said that's amazing and she kind of looked through the ingredients and she said she was really impressed she said I'm really pleased I was really like my dad I showed my dad and my dad ran restaurants his whole life and he is amazing

like honestly my dad is like he is so charismatic and the reason why people came back to his restaurant was because he was this like it wasn't just the food it was him and he was he is so he's so wholesome and he was so inviting. And that's why he can't run restaurants because he just gives everything away.

But my dad saw it. And I remember years ago when I was about 15, I said to dad, you need to make people eat the chicken korma that we eat at home. Not the one that you cook in the restaurant with cream and cashews. That's not right. He's got to try the, they've got to try our korma. And when I showed him the recipe in the book, he goes, you finally did it. And I was like, it took, I can't. And for me, I couldn't believe he remembered that.

Exactly. You did it. You're doing it. What you said to your dad. Because actually, you know, a lot of what we call Indian restaurants across the country are actually run by Bangladeshis. Yeah, exactly. A lot of Indian restaurants.

But no, but I guess people know that. And it's almost like with this book, you're sort of reclaiming the heritage and the food. Yeah, because, you know what, I think lots of people don't know that. Lots of people don't know that Indian restaurants are run by people. They are owned by rich Indian men and men families. And they're run by Bangladeshi. Bangladeshi, often immigrants, you know, like so. And the food there is just very kind of they have a like, I don't know what the Indian food Bible that they go by.

And everything is everything's the same everywhere you go. And I used to hate that. I'm like, Dad, like you are such a good cook and people come for you. You could really put our food on the map and he refused to do it because he said I've got bills to pay I'm not about to change anything so the fact that my remember my dad remembers from when I was 15 that I said that I was going to do it one day that it's quite cool and I love the relationship between you and your dad and yes Mr Charisma daughter exactly the same. Why was it important to get validation from your mum, though? Why was it important to celebrate the women? My mum, you know, women like my mum are

overlooked completely. And I, you know, my mum's the one who taught me how to cook. My mum's the one who showed me how to, you know, I don't realise it, but I realise it now sort of nearly like heading towards 40. And I kind of see that my mom is the reason why I am as strong as I am. My nan's the reason why I'm as tough as I am and as resilient as I am. Because my mom has had to kind of take pushbacks and hear things, really not very nice things. And, you know, and she just sits quietly.

You know, she sits at home. She works six days a week, comes home, cooks. You know, she doesn't need the celebration or the pomp. She doesn't need anything. She just kind of happily lives her life. Yet here I am. I've realized now that I'm not just flying my own flag here. You know, I get to kind of fly my mom's.

I get to fly my grandma's. People who are completely unseen here's the thing about that generation of women though they've given birth to women in a foreign country in another culture and then these women these their daughters then find their voices yeah and are out there doing things that they would never dream of doing no how did your mom sort of compute what was happening in your life how did I it scares, I think it really scares her. Even to this day, I think it really scares her. Because whenever I see her, last time I saw her, I said, oh, I've just got back from LA.

And for her, it's like, because I'd gone for work. And she's like, did anyone go with you? And she's like, she worries that I'm on my own. And also she worries, and for her, it's completely alien. The idea that I leave my children, I leave my husband, and I go off and I have this career outside of them is still really alien to her. And she always says whenever, I mean, eight years later,

she still says, when are you going home to the kids? I'm like, mum, I'm not. Mum, I'm not going home to the kids. I am at home with them, but I'm like, mum, I'm not. Mum, I'm not going home to the kids. I am at home with them, but I'm also doing a job that I love. And what about the extraordinary success that you've had and the independence that that brings and the voice that you found

and the financial stability that you, and like, how has that kind of impacted on people around you? You know what? It's interesting. And I love that. I love talking to you because I think like I it's the honesty about things like financial stability and things like you know because I know that when I was a housewife you know I was provided for but I always

longed for financial stability stability I always longed for financial independence and that is a word that is in my daughter's vocabulary now like she is 12 and she's like I'm gonna get financial independence and when I when I get a flat in New York it's gonna have marble floors she knows that already at 12 like it's something that my mum now is only understanding because she works and so but she always says that I got confidence from you so she says to me and my sisters she always says that I got confidence from you. So she says to me and my sisters, she always says she never worked her whole life. And she said, I wasted my whole life not knowing what it feels like to be independent. And then we all went off to work.

I got this career. My mum's like, you know what? What am I sat at home for? I'm going to get a job like you guys. And she always says, you guys are the reason why I now have a job. So your mum went to work after you and your sisters went out there and worked. That's incredible. She saw us do it.

And how has it changed her? Oh my goodness. My mum is like, honestly, such a firecracker. She's a firecracker anyway. But you obviously get it from somewhere. It must be your parents. Well, I know. Come on.

Yeah. And like my sisters are the exact same. But my mum having financial independence has given her so much confidence. Like she is, but she still comes home and busts the gut and cooks every day and makes sure dad's fed and makes sure nan's fed but she like she just feels a little bit less burdened like she can just she can go out and she can buy her own stuff you know I love she buys herself things she never used to buy herself things now she buys herself things which is lovely to buy herself things now she buys herself things which

is lovely to see yeah um i said at the beginning it's only been eight years since you won bake off if you could go back and tell you eight years ago give her any advice what would you say knowing what you know now uh i would tell her don't change anything hold tight yeah just hold tight it just I just I remember being so impatient young me desperate to have independence and desperate to to kind of fly a little bit and I remember feeling like my wings were always clipped just because you can't do this and this isn't a done thing and this isn't the right thing and who what if somebody sees and you know like like community community there was a lot of chat about community and you know and I remember feeling really claustrophobic and I just think but ultimately the reason why I'm here today and the reason why I've been able to be here for and be here comfortably for eight years is because

of who I am and if I changed that 20 ago, I wouldn't be where I am today. Yeah. And the reason why you are where you are and you're so successful is absolutely because of who you are. Nadia, you're one of the most authentic people out there. I think it's because you're consistently true to who you are and the things that you say. It's just remarkable watching it. It's so refreshing. And you've spoken a lot about the sort of patriarchal culture that you've grown up in the expectations or lack of expectations put on you you were told to stay small you know the comment you made about your mum telling you she

you look beautiful for the first time in 38 years it's equally as wonderful as it is heartbreaking yeah yeah it's so heartbreaking yeah well my mum, as much as it sounds heartbreaking and it always seems mean, I understand my mum because she grew up in a society where she was never told she was beautiful. She had a job to do and she did it and she was never told she was beautiful. So I can understand from my mum's perspective why it's something that she couldn't utter out of her mouth, but now she can say it and and I think that's that must be uplifting for her and growth yeah absolute growth yeah out there working telling you she's beautiful yeah and the way you're bringing up Miriam yeah completely differently

completely different like she sees the world in a way that I never saw the world like she does not have the restriction that I had and she doesn't she doesn't feel I can see it in her face and I can see in the way she lives that she doesn't feel like she's any different to my sons she does she knows she can do everything they can do in fact she can probably do it better let's face it um and she just she's honestly she is like this if you think I'm a firecracker oh my goodness if you met you met her, she is, she knows what she wants and she is going to get it. And I know it. And I, and I see that. And for me, the fact that I'm raising this beautiful, strong lioness is, is, is my job done. I'm giving you a chef's kiss.

Thank you. I'm giving the chef a chef's kiss. Do you know what? We've talked about so much stuff, nothing about spices. Very quickly. I mean, people are terrified of spices if they don't never cook for them. What's the basic thing that they should do? What's the one spice that they should have in their cupboard or the couple that they should have? I think, well, I think having the eight spices means that you can do any of the recipes, which is amazing. But a couple of whole spices, things like cinnamon, which are so versatile because you can use them in savory and sweet cooking. And then like for me, it's got to be turmeric. Turmeric is like an all healer. It's amazing. it's great and great to cook with amazing for your health so

can we just talk about golden milk for a minute yeah i once went to america and spent seven dollars on some of that my mom i mean i've just admitted it on national radio what we doing just get turmeric in some milk done that's it easy isn't it ridiculous isn't it ridiculous what we'll pay um nadia has saying it's been such a pleasure. Could talk to you all day. We could talk forever. I know. Is that a box of food for me? That is a box of food for you. Thank you so much. Best of luck with it. It's out today. Nadia's Simple Spices.

And thank you. 84844 is the number to text so many of you getting in touch about things that make you feel, remind you of comfort and the smells of home. It's stale beer for me, says someone. My dad owned a nightclub in South Shields and we'd often be there through the day when the lines were being cleaned, etc. Now, if I smell the aroma of stale beer, yeasty beer, I'm immediately taken back to my childhood memories of my dad and all the happy memories of the staff and the acts who rehearsed and performed there, especially the fabulous staff cabarets.

Happy days, says Maxine. Now, last Friday's earthquake in Morocco, which killed nearly 3,000 people, was one of the most powerful and deadly earthquakes to hit the country in years. The epicentre was in the High Atlas Mountains, southwest of Marrakesh. 300,000 people are said to have been affected

including 100 000 children buildings have been destroyed and survivors left homeless and in urgent need of shelter food and clothing and with northern africa still reeling from the earthquake catastrophic floods have hit libya with over 5 000 people confirmed dead the mayor of the devastated city of derna estimates that as many as 20,000 people may have died. The aftermath of natural disasters posed numerous challenges to women and children who are said to suffer the most during humanitarian emergencies. In a moment I'll be joined by British Moroccan actress Leila Rouas, a representative of the charity Education for All Morocco. But earlier I spoke to Ridwana wallace laher ceo of the penny appeal

we're in marrakesh we're just at the airport we um on our way back to the uk and you've been as we know you you are on the ground in in morocco but we're also hearing about the catastrophic floods that have hit libya so how are women most affected in natural disasters? What have you been seeing? Oh, it's been absolutely devastating. I met up with some villagers up high, very high up in the Atlas Mountains. It took us nine and a half hours from Marrakesh to get to these women. These women with their young children, some pretty much newborn as well, really really really struggling to find areas to breastfeed find areas just to have a bit of privacy and there's a there's a big massive

shortage on sanitary products hygiene products and it it's absolutely heartbreaking to see what these women are unfortunately going through and what have they been saying to you the ladies are just crying as soon as we got to the village where we first went, the women came running over, big hugs, cuddles, kisses, everything just kept hold of us. They wouldn't let go. They were so thankful that we'd actually got there. We were one of the first charities to get to that particular location. They were literally left with nothing. Their homes have all been destroyed. All of their belongings have been destroyed.

And they were just reaching out. And one of the women in particular did actually say to me, she said, even if you brought nothing, just the fact that you've come here to see us and your warm smiles has meant so much to them. And you mentioned there women with babies. So what's the primary concern for those women? For those women, our primary concern is to get them some food,

get them some shelter, some areas where they can sleep, some areas where they can have some privacy. A lot of these women predominantly are Muslim women who are wanting, obviously, areas where they can do their breastfeeding they're left out in the open skies and there's nowhere for them to go and have that area their clothes have been destroyed everything had been destroyed so our first priority was to ensure that we got them some warm clothing there has been some bad weather forecast for this weekend we've managed to get them some mattresses we've managed to get them some mattresses we've managed

to get them some blankets and we've managed to get them some tents so that was our ultimate priority and then of course food and so we managed to get some bread some lentils some tinned items as well because obviously they've got to keep their energy up they've got to look after themselves in order to be able to look after their children and families. And there are concerns about the weather. Heavy rains expected. Have you experienced anything? Yeah, so when we went into the mountainous areas, it was already getting very, very cold. There was also risks of there's lots of snakes that are in that area. So the women were literally just crying and saying saying how am I going to look after my children

where we're sleeping out in the open terrain and there's no protection for them there's nowhere for them to go and be safe literally. I'm just wondering how people are coming together is it families staying together is it women coming together? Is it mothers with children supporting each other? Just give us a sense of how, I guess, humans get through something like this. Yeah, obviously in somewhere like Morocco, they've not had to experience anything like this ever. So just coping mechanisms are just not there. But the communities are coming together you know exceptionally well the women are rallying together seeing what they can find giving each other clothing that they can

share head coverings things like that and and just seeing people come together like that is phenomenal you know sometimes it's unfortunate that it takes something like this for people to come together and support each other most of these families especially in the mountainous areas they all sort of they live in little little village groups so they're all coming together because to get from one village to another they're talking you know literally hours so it's quite difficult to sort of just just you know go to another area and and come together as well what's the impact been on you with one oh it's it's i think i've spent the the last three days

just literally crying and emotions have been all over you know we try and do what we can but yeah it is heartbreaking will you be going back out there But yeah, it is heartbreaking. Will you be going back out there? We've got a team hopefully flying out today actually. So they'll hopefully come and do a few more days because we have to have a look at the situation in Libya and try and channel our efforts there as well. And of course there'll be a similar situation there for the women and girls in there as well. And of course there'll be similar situation there

for the women and girls in Libya as well. Oh, certainly. You know, when these things happen, it's usually the women and the young children that get affected the most because, you know, they just lose all kinds of dignity or privacy. And now you're about to get on a plane and come home. Yeah, it's been quite difficult because

you're thinking you know are we going to see these people again are these people going to get the support that they need but hopefully there's been quite a lot of charities who've been coming forward and offering their support which has been absolutely phenomenal to see as well and how much help is coming from the Moroccan government? The governments are trying to do as best that they can, but they are actually relying on the NGOs because they've never had to deal with something like this. So when a crisis happens, you know, countries look to partners and other organisations to support them just because they don't have the infrastructure or the capacity to be able to cope with some of these things themselves. That was Ridwana Wallace-Lahair, CEO of the Penny Appeal. And we can talk now to actor Leila Rouas, who's also a representative of the charity Education for All Morocco. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Leila. I mean, Morocco is you are, it is you and it's your heart.

And you've been many, many times. I think you were there just before the earthquake hit. What do you make of what Ridwana was just saying there yeah I was there a week before the earthquake hit yeah I was in Tangiers so I was in the north not the south but I you know I often visit Marrakesh and surrounding areas and education for all has you've got boarding schools for girls in Morocco do you know what you know what's happened to the schools? Yeah, we've got six boarding schools. All but one are going to have to be built from scratch. They're going to have to be torn down, built from scratch.

We house 250 girls. We know that one has passed away. We know one former student has passed away, we've managed to contact as of yesterday 50% of our girls, 50% we've not been able to contact due to, you know, just lack of phones being down, really dire situation. And these are in the most rural areas. And I don't think people realise how vast the area is. We're talking from, I mean, I can't tell you what that would be in miles, but we're talking from Marrakesh to Agadir. So, you know, you're looking at part of the Atlas Mountains. Well, there's another village behind there that you don't even know about.

And there's another village behind there that you don't even know about. So we don't really know the full scope of of the devastation what what do you think the primary concern is going to be for the women out there i think like redwana said a bit of privacy um you know because often women are the home carers, so they look after the kids, they look after the elderly parents, any of the disabled. And so it's their job to make sure their wellbeing is managed, as well as their own. So I think that's going to be a huge, huge problem a huge challenge um schools the girls were supposed to start school the day before yesterday that didn't happen obviously so now you know they've got the

girls at home it's just you know it's more mouths to feed and i know it sounds brutal but it's the reality it's more mouths to feed um it's more people to worry about and the school the schools our schools give them a a safety yeah be safe to get education because you know there's still a lot of gender inequality in morocco um i think there was a study done in 2017 and 70 i think 77% of males were out of school and 177,000 boys were out of school and 117,000 girls were out of school. And that's often due to poverty, lack of infrastructure, access to schools. If you travel along remote roads, often you'll see, you know, in the rural areas, you'll see kids hitchhiking to schools because they don't have access to good quality schools. The schools are there, it's just the access to them. So what's the conversation happening with the charity now? What will you be doing?

What are you thinking about? Well, now we're hoping to build some kind of temporary, have a temporary solution where the girls can come back to some normality where we can support them. They've been traumatized. We can, you know, they can start their education, carry on with it. So just build some temporary housing and then fund with fundraising. So, you know, you want to donate it's afa underscore morocco on instagram um and all donations will be going to look after the girls look after the region as well we're we're not an aid um we're not an aid organization we're a charity but we're helping the region because the region you know the region is has been devastated and we've got former students that are actually out there arranging relief to their communities.

And I think an educated society can help better in disasters like this. And it must be very difficult for you to watch everything that's going on. Yeah, it's very, very difficult. It's, you know, it's we've never seen anything like this in morocco um and when you kind of when you're familiar with the rural areas and you're familiar familiar with the weather out there which is brutal it can be brutal up in the atlas mountains it's snowing we're coming we're coming into that season um it's just hard to even visualize what they're going to go through this winter it's going to be a really tough winter.

And, you know, at some point after we've provided the tents and the, you know, the food, we're going to have to just, we need money, really. We need money to start rebuilding the communities, rebuilding people's lives. Leila, thank you so much for joining me to speak to me this morning. Thank you. Leila ruas who is talking as a representative as of the charity education for all in morocco um so many of your texts and messages coming in about various things we've spoken about we talked about equal pay this morning um at the council in sunderland on the issue of equal pay women's hours should look

into workers in education paid for term time only um mainly women and since email arrived a total fiction enables people who work all hours uh he counted as part-time and has all the issues lower pay lower pensions it's a scandal no one seems to care about my name is not given as i still work in education on term time only contract sorry i'm just reading it verbatim as it's come in and also um lots of you getting in touch about the foods and the smells that make you feel like home and comfort home comfort smell of food has to be kippers i know what they are i know that they're not for everyone but my dad and i bonded over our shared love of them when i was a kid and we still share them when we spend time

together for me a homemade apple crumble smells of home reminds me of my mum and lovely grandad sarah and lester the smell of a kipper that lingers um now on to my next guest a young british couple live and will seemingly have it all a glamorous new life in new york until live learns will's been seeing another woman and heartbreak turns into fury and revenge well wilderness is a new six-part prime video psychological thriller series released tomorrow. It stars Jenna Coleman and Oliver Jackson-Cohen. Marnie Dickens is the writer and creator of the series and she joins me now.

Welcome. Thank you. I think we should have a clip. Should we have a little burst of the actual programme and then we'll have a chat about it. Liv, okay. Look, there was this girl, woman at the conference who liked to flirt to get a rise. This, this is just that. I mean, nothing happened, I shouldn't have to tell you. And

since when did you become the sort of person who goes through my phone? Are you seriously sticking with that? Well, I just think it's a bit low, is all. I mean, you know, we're meant to trust each other. Yeah. Yes, we are. Okay, look, we can reset the evening. I know we can. Okay? Look. See? Look. Deleted. It's gone. It's gone. What's her name? It hardly matters, but fine. Emily. Emily. Why was she in your phone a soul?

Oh, the love rat gets caught out. Tell us about Liv and Will. Well, they seem to have it all, they really do. You see them at the beginning, they're having a lovely time in a very nice Mustang driving through the American West. And you might even hate them a little bit because they're quite smug in their love. But don't worry, things rapidly go downhill from there. It's based on the novel by B.E. Jones.

What made you want to adapt it, write it and create your own series for screen? I think it was obviously amazing central female protagonist, which is what I look for in everything that I do. But it was this chance to get this kind of naughty, juicy relationship drama and get it out of the domestic sphere and instantly have those fun stakes. How did you put your own stamp on it? I think I guess you are who you are. So I write how I write and the things that interest me are what interest me. But I guess like identity is a big theme.

Like it was in 13, it was in Gold Digger and it's very like front and centre here. Like she seems to be, Liv seems to be this every woman. She's very much a product of the patriarchy and then ends up kind of weaponising the system that's kept her down to survive. I really like the way you start it, actually, because you do take us back to, we see Little, we see Little live and she's like, you know, I've been a people pleaser, I've done everything right.

And as you say, a product of the patriarchy, and you watch it and you're like, ooh, isn't that all of us? It is all of us. I feel a real affinity for her. And then Jen has done this amazing performance and the way it's shot means that you're kind of on her shoulder the whole way through the drama so i feel like the audience kind of the revenge you know it becomes their narrative they want her to succeed i hope uh the female characters are all pretty standout in this i watched the first couple of episodes um and the

script is whip smart the conversations that are happening between the women um i you know just subtle but really on point. The patronising boss who tells her not to get chained to the kitchen sink. She's moved to America to be with us. But also there's a conversation between Jenna and her friend and she says, what do you fear most? And she says, middle class white women. That's a line.

It's a line. And sadly for me, that is actually the only line that's not my line. That was ad-libbed by the brilliant actress Morgana Van Peebles, who plays Ash. That's a line. It's a line. And sadly for me, that is actually the only line that's not my line. That was ad-libbed by the brilliant actress Morgana van Peebles, who plays Ash. So that, it is sad to have to let that one go, but credit where credit's due. I mean, we had these incredible actors,

but it does feel like important that we just have all these different characters. I think her mother, played by Claire Rushbrook, is a real standout for me as well. Absolutely. And the other line she says is, i don't want to be my mother and tell us what happens because it plays out her mother is divorced because she had an her father had an affair and you see the mother the conversation they have on christmas day she just can't get over it she can't get over it and i think that's a very common thing that we

don't see very often because we like these more you know empowering narratives that i think wilderness is but the truth is that carol stuck the past. And because of social media, she has to be confronted with her ex-husband living his best life. And that's one of the key reasons that Liv can't just divorce Will and decides to take a rather dastardly step in another direction. Tell us, tell us more. Well, she decides to get revenge. I think, you know, hopefully people will have seen the posters and the buses. I mean, it's not a spoiler, I think, to say she decides she's going to kill him. So why is revenge so important for her? I think it's because she's had something done to her and she's become powerless.

And taking revenge gives her agency. You say that we don't see enough female rage on TV. We don't. I mean, we do and we don't because I was just looking at that amazing picture of Claire Dane screaming in Fleischmann is in Trouble. I think we have been seeing it more recently. The amazing I Hate Susie. There are recent examples. Obviously, Catherine Kaywood and Happy Valley.

There are standout, fantastic females who have had enough. But I think a lot of women in real life have had enough. And now we want to express it. What about your own experiences of being rageful? I'm pretty rageful. But I think one feels, one one i feel a lot of shame around how angry i get and i i guess in live it's a chance to be kind of liberated from that and say why can't we express ourselves why is sort of aggression allowed to just be a male trait um

can revenge ever be healthy in the show i wouldn't say things turn out great. I mean, it's not a sort of consequence or conscience-free journey that happens for Liv. But I do think finding a way to express yourself. You know, she's lied to again and again and again. Yeah. And I think you see what it's like to essentially be gaslit. It's not a poster saying, please go out and get revenge. It's a heightened example of real life.

Of course. And the other woman who comes on the scene, played by Ashley Benson, she becomes a bit obsessed with her and what she's done rather than with him. What do you make of that obsession with the other woman? I mean, it was a very deliberate thing to step into that kind of more cliched gendered stereotype of the other woman. You don't really hear about the other man in affairs. But we wanted to lean into that. She does a little bit of following her around,

you know, a lot of Facebook stalking, which I think women do naturally focus on, you know, the other party instead of maybe looking at the relationship or the person that they married, who, let's be honest, is the one who made the vows, so actually has much more to apologise for. But I really hope we subvert it in the end

you'll see i hope you'll see in episode two um the two women start to understand they're both you know products of the patriarchy they've both been ill-used by this man and they find a common cause how much did you enjoy writing this hugely um you mentioned you created and wrote the bbc dramas gold digger about an older woman and her relationship with a young man and then 13 back in 2016 with the incredible Jodie Comer. Let's talk a bit about her. What do you make of her success? Oh, I love it. I mean, someone said you're still in touch.

I think I'd love to be, but she's in another stratosphere now. And actually, Jenna reminds me a lot of Jodie. They have the same depth of performance and performing these different layers. You know, both of those parts, a lot of the time time there's lots of lies going on in different versions of reality. And those actresses can portray it all with a look. Yeah, Jenna Coleman's exquisite in this. What was it like being on set?

And also the locations. Hello. Can we talk about this? I mean, everyone's beautiful in it, the actors, but the location is absolutely stunning as well. The locations are amazing. I mean, you know, to film on the actual Grand Canyon, to be in Las vegas to be in new york it's a long way from peckham where i was writing from um but to be on set with all of them i mean jenna's she's a masterclass she's a really fantastic performer and is the number one of the call sheets she sets the tone she's

so professional so lovely so down to earth she's amazing uh your first tv credit was it for Hollyoaks? it was yes and now you find yourself here were you handed this book by a BBC commissioner? I was Liz Kilgariff pulled it out of her lovely handbag and said you've got to read it it's so twisty turny

you won't be able to put it down and I really did just stay and read it in one go I mean you've become that woman Monty you have the power to tell stories the way you want to tell them

that's lovely I hadn't stepped back to think that but yes I do feel very lucky yeah now now that you've stepped back to think about it what do you make of it it feels it's one of those pinch me moments being here having Taylor Swift on a soundtrack or something I've written like there are lots of these moments that one has to step back and go wow thank you um and so um what will you be thinking about next I know actually what how different was it working for Amazon than it was working for the BBC? It's different in some ways, but what, you know, unites them both

is you have to have great creative execs. And we had an amazing exec, Daisy Mount, who was just so supportive from, you know, the beginning of the process all the way through. And then Amazon really get behind the show. It's lovely to see these buses of Jenna and Oliver's face going past me. They've been great. I love the BBC too, obviously. I would say that in front of the BBC mic.

And what's next? Will there be more? What's next? I don't know what's next. I'm so firmly in this world and really enjoying getting it out there and shouting about it and hoping people turn up and watch it

that I'm just trying to just be in the moment. Well, wonderful. Thank you so much for coming to speak to me about it. Thank you. Be in the moment. It is fantastic. It's proper good, binge-worthy TV. It's absolutely, you get into the stories,

you get into the characters, and it's delicious. Thank you. For the eyes. Thank you. So many of you getting in touch with your smells of home. Worcester sauce, deep frying, and cigarettes remind me of happy hours spent at

Manan's house in the 80s what about you actually Marnie oh gosh I worried about ambrosia custard I used to sit on a stool with my mum and whisk it very slowly oh yeah with thick um with a bit of raspberry jam or strawberry jam lovely yeah uh someone's got in touch to say Nadia I was born in Italy and came to the UK when I was seven 1953 now 70 years ago things have changed a lot in those years i feel culturally i am both british and italian or as i prefer to call it britallian and that's from elio z and another one here for nadia saying nadia is a beautiful breath of fresh air can't wait to try out her new book um and uh sharon in pembroke says i hated the smell of day-old cabbage cooking but my nan used to cook it

and it also made me think of it brings back happy memories says Sharon that's all from me join me again tomorrow for more Woman's Hour that's all for today's Woman's Hour join us again next time what if I told you that death may not be inevitable is it possible that a fundamental of existence that we've always had as a species,

that we will all inevitably die, is that still true? And that there are technologists promising everlasting life. We can and should use technology to enhance and expand and augment human capacities. Who's behind the modern movement for immortality? Where else do you find the promise of living longer or forever? It's just like religion and Silicon capacities. Who's behind the modern movement for immortality? Where else do you find the promise of living longer or forever? It's just like religion and Silicon Valley. I'm Alex Kratosky. Find out on Intrigue, The Immortals from BBC Radio 4.

Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.