Woman's Hour - Nannie, the figurehead for the Cutty Sark; The power of giving away power; No fault divorce;

Episode Date: June 11, 2021

The G7 kicks off in Cornwall today. Boris Johnson and leaders from Japan, Canada, Italy and France who make up the Group of Seven will be joined by US President Joe Biden and the German Chancellor Angela Merkel . On the agenda the biggest issues affecting our world - everything from climate change to the economic recovery post Covid. But how should they change their approach? How much better could things be if leaders, instead of lording their power over us and operating a top-down approach, did something different? In his new book 'The Power of Giving Away Power', Matthew Barzun argues that if leaders just let go and listened and worked more closely with their colleagues, we'd see things thrive and grow. Baroness Valerie Amos, now the Master of University College, Oxford joins him.As live music events draw closer and closer, we ask – how diverse is the music industry? And what can be done to make things more inclusive? We hear from one DJ Jaguar, about her own experiences and an initiative to train other young women.As no fault divorce is delayed we ask if there is a way to make divorce less complicated and confrontational? We hear from Ellie, who is in the middle of a break-up, a high profile divorce lawyer, Ayesha Vardag, and Kate Daly, the founder of Amicable – an online divorce service. In the Women's Super League the transfer window opens today with a new rule forcing clubs to include eight homegrown players in their squad. They must have been trained by their club, or another club in England, for at least three years before their 21st birthday. BBC sports presenter, Charlie Webster, joins Chloe Tilley.Today the new figurehead known as Nannie will start to be installed on the prow of the famous ship, the Cutty Sark: the tea clipper that resides in a specially designed dry dock in Greenwich next to the river Thames in London. The figurehead of a ship is often a woman but why and what is their significance? Louise Macfarlane, senior curator at the Cutty Sark, explains. Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Baroness Valerie Amos Interviewed Guest: Matthew Barzun Interviewed Guest: Jaguar Bingham Interviewed Guest: Kate Daly interviewed Guest: Ayesha Vardag Interviewed Guest: Ellie Interviewed Guest: Charlie Webster Interviewed Guest: Louise Macfarlane

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast on Friday the 11th of June. And we're talking leadership this morning, when it's done well and when it isn't. The Prime Minister is hosting leaders from the G7 in Cornwall today as they look at leading their countries out of the COVID pandemic. So I want to hear from you this morning about when you've seen good and bad leadership, whether that's a boss at work, a teammate in a sporting context. What have they done that has empowered you, that's made you thrive, that's made you feel valued? Equally, what about bad experiences which have left you feeling restricted, micromanaged and with no autonomy? You can text us this morning. You can text us on

84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website. We're also going to be talking about no-fault divorces. They're being delayed until at least next April. Currently, if you want to get divorced, one party has to take the blame for the breakdown of the marriage. So we're going to be looking at what effect that is going to have on couples. And if that affects you this morning, get in touch with us. Does that mean that you're going to delay divorce proceedings? Will you go ahead? Interested to get your thoughts on that this morning. We're going to be speaking to one woman who's divorcing her husband of 15 years. Plus, Radio 1 DJ Jaguar

speaks to us about a lack of diversity in the music industry and what she's doing to try and change that. And, of course, it's a huge weekend for football. Euro 2020 kicking off tonight. Also, it's the transfer window opening in the Women's Super League. We'll be speaking to sports presenter Charlie Webster. And the Cutty Sark is getting a new figurehead today. We're going to find out why Nanny, that's what she's known as,

has gone from having a scowl to having her beauty restored. But let's begin by looking at leadership, because scanning through this morning's front pages, many have photographs of President Biden and Boris Johnson walking hand in hand with their respective wives in Cornwall, of course, ahead of the start of the G7. The Johnson's son, Wilfred, is also making appearance, playing on the beach, watched by Jill Biden and Carrie Johnson. Well, ahead of the summit, the Prime Minister has described his talks with President Biden as

a breath of fresh air. But of course, it's not just the UK and the US. Boris Johnson is going to be meeting leaders from Japan, Canada, Italy, France and Germany who make up the group of seven. On the agenda are the biggest issues affecting our world, everything from climate change to the economic recovery post-Covid. So how should they approach the way they do things? How much better could things be if leaders instead of lording their power over us and operating a top-down approach actually do something different? Well in his new book The Power of Giving Away Power, Matthew Barzan argues that if leaders just let go,

listen and work more closely with their colleagues, we would see things thrive and grow. Well, he is joining us this morning from his home in Kentucky, where it is, as I said to you earlier, Matthew, before we came on air, hideous o'clock. What is it, about 5am, something like that? It is 5am, but more importantly, it is a joy to be with you. Well, it's great to have you on.

Thank you for your time this morning and for getting up so early. Also with us is Baroness Valerie Amos, who's now the Master of University College, Oxford. Good morning. Good morning. And Matthew, it's great to be on with you. And it's a while since I've been on Women's Hour. So thank you for inviting me back.

Absolute pleasure. Well, let's start, Matthew, by talking to you about these ideas that are coming out of your book. And I guess it's important to say this is not a new idea. It came from a woman largely forgotten about called Mary Parker Follett. And you do attribute these ideas to her, don't you? Just tell us a little bit about her. Sure. She is this amazing woman. And if we go back in 2003, the Harvard Business School Review asked 200 global leadership gurus, who was your guru? And so they did a list of gurus, gurus.

And number one on the list was Peter Drucker, who I think was probably the most quoted business management thinker of the 20th century. And what's interesting is Drucker admits a few years at the end of his career that he too had a guru, and it is Mary Parker Follett. So she is the guru's guru's guru, if you will. And she was born 1868 outside of Boston, Massachusetts, died 1933. And she was the most sought after speaker of her day. And she was the most sought-after speaker of her day. And Drucker says that all the leadership ideas we have today, all the good ones anyway, really came from her, but she was erased from history. And so she had, I sort of call her the matron saint of this leadership mindset that certainly other people have

demonstrated, but she really honed in on it. And as you said in the intro, she thought, look, obviously, you know, lording power over people is not good. But she went farther than that. She said, look, hoarding it to yourself is tempting. That doesn't matter. And even living it up and sharing it isn't the right answer. Even though we often say power sharing, that sounds better

than the other alternatives. And she said, no, look, power isn't a scarce resource like something you would mine. It is something you make. And you make it with other people. And you make it with other people around small tables, big ones, spotlights like the G7, and just small ones like all of us at our next Monday morning meeting. I was struck when I was reading your book, the discussion about people pretending, lots of leaders and bosses pretending that they know what to do. And that sense of pretending must be exhausting. Now, Matthew's face has frozen on Skype,

which would suggest to me that his line has dropped out, which is frustrating. Oh, no, he's back. Matthew, you are back. Apologies. I'm blaming the cicadas here, which is how we pronounce it. And it's probably not their fault. But. So I don't know where you lost me. I'm going to assume I cut out straight away. So just yeah, just explain the idea of pretending being so exhausting. And those are the first three words of the book. Pretending is exhausting because,

and I think we do so much of it in the name of leadership and we encourage it in the next generation too. And I think it stems from the fact that there's something we dread even more than the exhaustion of pretending, which is the anxiety of uncertainty. And so, so many of these bad habits that we've fallen into is because we're trying to factor out uncertainty. And we find a predictable, we set a goal, we work backwards from there, and we eliminate uncertainty. And these leaders, and Mary Follett as one of them, they did the opposite. They embraced uncertainty. They made uncertainty central.

But that doesn't mean that they embraced chaos or everyone on their own. I mean, there is stability and order outside of the pyramid. There are different ways of organizing and thinking of ourselves. And so in my book, I characterize the exhausting way as the world of the pyramid. We all got the memo that top-down, as you said, isn't really effective. But here's the trap. We often then say, I know we'll be bottom-up. And that feels better for about five minutes. But think about this. Bottom-up is no better. If I say I'm in a bottom-up organization, that means that you are in one of two modes.

Either you're looking at people around you as being beneath you, or you're looking at yourself as being beneath someone else. You are still trapped in the pyramid. It's the exact same shape, just in reverse order. Baroness Amos, let me bring you in on this, because you've worked at a number of different large organisations and you must have seen very different approaches to leadership. I'm wondering when you were at the UN, how complex problems were tackled? Did you take an approach very much like Matthew was advocating?

I think it was as straightforward as that. And I think one of the challenges, I think, when you're looking at global issues and how we might resolve them is that they require, you know, is to really listen at different points and places to what everybody is saying. So let me give an example. I was responsible for the response to humanitarian crises around the world. I've seen more than my fair share of people affected by conflict, by natural disasters, and so on. Very often they were the last people that anybody spoke to about, you know, what is it that would help them to make their situation better? And that taught me a lot, that you really need to talk to people on the ground. But, you know, you were dealing with a myriad of people who felt they

had an interest, including, you know, the national governments, the international NGOs, the local NGOs, dealing with national governments at the UN. So, you know, working to bring everyone into the tent was pretty tricky. But also to go back to the point about global leadership, I mean, I saw how the positioning of leaders and countries around conflict and their refusal to kind of move from the assumption of a national position. So, you know, Russia had to be fighting

with the United States. You know, China had to be fighting with the United States, you know, China had to be fighting in the mix somewhere. France and the UK and the US were always assumed to be on the same side. And it actually stopped us from reaching solutions. And, you know, I am still angry that the Syrian crisis is still going on, that we have a major conflict in Yemen. And actually, you know, part of what leaders should be doing is finding a way through being more mutable, more flexible in their expectations of what the result will be. And it can work, but it's very unusual for it to work. And, you know, I really hope that the situation that we're seeing now,

where there is talk about, you know, let's work together to make sure that we get the vaccine rollout across the world, that that actually delivers a real outcome. You know, we have seen how actually that responsibility in a way has been taken away from some of these global leaders. There was a big announcement this week about what the Mastercard Foundation, and I have to declare an interest because I'm on the board of that foundation, you know, the major announcement about the partnership that they have put together with African countries, but also crucially with the African CDC to really power and make sure that vaccines are brought to people. And, you know, this is showing the way to our G7 leaders and others who should really be stepping up. And, you know, this is showing the way to our G7 leaders and others. We should really be stepping up.

And, you know, I was pleased to see what President Biden said, for example, with respect to vaccines. But they all need to be working together on. It's interesting what you're talking about essentially is changing culture. And that must be incredibly difficult to do, Matthew, particularly if it's a small business or a small environment. I guess it's easier. But if you're talking about massive, whether it's a government, whether it is the United Nations, or whether it's just a huge corporation, how do you begin to change a culture? Well, I think Baroness Amos was hitting right on the key issue. And if we take it back to Mary Follett, she's writing 100 years ago, after a global pandemic. She's writing at a time when

her country, and she spent a lot of time in London. She was very involved with the London School of Economics in its early days. And she was dealing with raging debates about immigration, about the rise of big business, about fear of government regulations. Everywhere she looked, social, political, economic, racial division. And she acknowledged that all of this could just seem so big and overwhelming. And one of her genius points was that we can actually begin to heal these divisions. And Baroness Amos was talking about this in very tactical, practical ways, you know, beginning tomorrow, any of us at any scale of this problem. And here's what she said. She said, look, we can start to deal with it in meetings, how small groups of people sitting around tables behave with one another. And she said,

there's four possible outcomes of a meeting. And I love this. And only one of them is worthwhile. Here they are quickly. Number one, victory. You try to win the meeting. She's like, well, that's no good. Why did you invite anyone else? If you came in with what you think is the best idea and you leave that meeting with only that idea, that's no good. Bad outcome number two, the opposite. You just acquiesce.

You think, oh, well, John seems super pushy and fired up. Just let John have his way. That's no good because you're denying that group a unique perspective, namely yours. And this is the hard one. Bad outcome number three, she says, compromise. Now, we're all taught to seek compromise. But she said, no, you know, compromise is just sort of little mini victories and little mini acquiescences.

At best case, you leave the meeting with a partial victory for yourself. But this is critical. Nothing more than that. So the only reason she thinks we should ever gather around a table, whether it's the G7 or our next Monday morning meeting, is to co-create, to make something together. And we've all kind of in our own way had this feeling. You might have it on a radio program, you might have it at a college or at the UN or your office, where you contribute something early on to the meeting. And at the end, you've made something together. And here's the magic. It is in you. You're in it. But you haven't

lost any of your identity to this other thing. You haven't been subsumed by it. And what I love and the way I reflect on that lesson is every time, beginning right now, we can do three things when we go to our next meeting. Very practical and tactical for Mary Follett. We can expect to be needed. We have to bring our full selves. No one else can. Number two, expect to need others. And number three, most important of all, expect to be changed. That yes, we bring our full selves, but we have a reciprocal obligation to leave that meeting just a little bit different than we entered it. And that's how we can take all the energy from difference and diversity and turn it into something productive. Can I just jump in

there? Because I think that what tends to happen is this feeling that if you don't get your own way, or indeed if you haven't prepared properly or paid attention to what the actual issue is, and you come out with a result that was unexpected, that somehow you've lost out. And that's the huge culture piece that we have got to change, that actually co-creation is about something different and potentially transformative it's not always going to be transformative but it's a new way of thinking and being but you have got to feel that your contribution is actually going to be meaningful

and that's the problem that if you have if you have a leadership that isn't really interested in listening pretends to um and actually wants to just come out of a situation in exactly the same way then people aren't going to be prepared to co-create because uh it's partly about as matthew talks about bringing your whole self but it's also about knowing that what may be perceived as a risk and very often it is not a risk at all but actually it's about a different way of looking at the same challenge coming out with a different solution i just wonder both of you if you think women do it differently we're often told women think and behave differently in leadership roles do you think that that's true? I think it depends on the situation. It depends on your training. It depends on how you see the world. You know, I know that sometimes I, for example, on my leadership journey, and I do it

even now, I become impatient. I want a particular result. I'm not prepared to wait. And people will characterize that as me exhibiting, you know, male in inverted commas behavior. I mean, we all bring different aspects of self and training and our engagement and our learning to situations. Sometimes if I'm tired, there's a slightly different me that presents than when I've had a good night's sleep. So I hesitate always just to talk about male and female forms of leadership because I think we all inhibit all kinds of different aspects of this. But there is also clearly research that shows that, you know, some women leaders gravitate more to one than to another. But it is, the picture is richer and deeper and more complex than that. Matthew, can I ask you, I know that you've, I mean, you served as US ambassador to the UK and to Sweden, but you also helped with Barack Obama's campaign to become president. And I was really interested in reading parts of your book

when you were talking about his approach to campaigning and listening to people. Baroness Amos was talking about the importance of listening to people. Tell us about when he came to Kentucky, I think it was, and he sat down with a bunch of people. Just explain to us what happened then. It was great. Now, that would suggest that Matthew's line has just broken out there again. Let's see if we can reconnect with Matthew, because there is a there is a fantastic story that he has about Barack Obama.

Oh, Matthew, you're back. Go ahead. We just lost you for a moment. I'm hoping I'm back. You are. Okay. I'm so sorry. I'll fast forward it for our listeners. It's 2006. He's rumored to be running for president, but not running yet. He comes to our city of Louisville. We do a big rally. 5,000 people show up. It's amazing. And then the next day, I had the great pleasure of taking him to meet Muhammad Ali, who's a great Louisvillian. But there was a gap in the schedule, and he had an extra hour. He said, were there any of your friends who were independents, Republicans, who didn't want to come to a huge rally? And I said, sure. So we brought them around a table, and he just went around and asked, I think, 12 of them what their hopes and fears were for their

country. And at the end, he summed up wonderfully. And one person in the meeting said, wow, he's such an amazing speaker. And of course, he is. And the night before the rally, he'd been amazing. But I'd been watching. He basically hadn't said anything. He had just been thoughtfully listening, taking notes, and then he summed up. And I can see that Matthew's line has frozen again. That is frustrating. But I'm hoping that in a moment we will reconnect and he'll be able to tell us, oh yeah, we reconnected, Matthew, that I can see that you are no longer frozen.

Do carry on. So he sat down, he listened, and people were saying he was a great orator. Exactly. And then a woman who couldn't come to the meeting called and she said, did he light up the room? And I knew what she meant because we use that phrase sometimes. And usually we mean these amazing leaders who are just sort of glowing and they reflect the light off of us. And I said, the room got lit up, but not the way you think. He got all of us to switch our lights

on. And that's the kind of leadership that I think is most effective, especially now for all the reasons Baroness Amos was talking about. Just being big beams of light, like you are not the sun, and just get it to my book for a second. Don't treat yourself like the sun with other people orbiting around you. You are, I call it constellation leadership. You're a star. Everyone around you is a star. Now, what useful and powerful combinations can you make between stars that you never could on your own? That to me is the opposite of the pyramid, the world of top down, bottom up, in, out, up, down, ranking, rating, sorting, sifting. That world, there's a time and place for it. It just shouldn't

be at the front of our lives. Taking that point on, Baroness Amos, and looking ahead to the G7 meeting of leaders over the next few days, what is it that you hope they will do and will take on board in terms of leadership to help us out of what has been such an awful 18 months? that we've seen made around vaccines and really recognising that this is about the safety and security of every single person on the planet. I hope that that is really taken seriously. It's both about the resources that are available. It's also about the kind of infrastructure that's put in place to produce these vaccines. So I really want that to be at the top of the agenda. But the second thing I want to be at the top of the agenda is really around

how our leaders think and talk about us, the people. I am really concerned that one of the things that's happening around the world is that issues around rights that have been such a key part of the global agenda for such a long time are just being gradually undermined, institutions being undermined. And those institutions are

important for each and every single one of us to help us to essentially fulfill our potential to be treated properly in terms of our rights to education, to health, to tackling poverty and so on. And I have watched over the last few years as our world has and our leadership has seemed to fall into that trap of thinking that actually if you accrue it all to yourself rather than sharing, that actually that is much better for the world so i think you know that's something which is about a recognition of the importance of global leadership and the richest countries in the world exercising that leadership in a positive way is really important baroness amos thank you for your time this morning uh speaking to us uh from her beautiful office i

have to say a paneled office, Master of University College in Oxford. And we also heard from Matthew Barzen, who is the author of the book, The Power of Giving Away Power. Do get in touch with us with your thoughts on leadership, good and bad. This morning, one here saying, we had a disgraceful CEO who instilled fear

and caused my boss to have a mini breakdown. Fear does not equate to leadership. Do share your experiences this morning. You can text us on 84844. Now, as live music events draw closer and closer, we ask how diverse is the music industry? Well, one DJ, Jaguar, is spearheading an initiative to tackle this problem.

She's with us now in the studio, in the flesh. It's lovely to see you, socially distanced, of course. You obviously work at Radio 1. I'm interested, first of all, to hear about your experience in what is mainly a male-dominated industry, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, first of all, it's great to be here. Thank you. Yeah, as a woman in this industry,

the first thing I noticed when I started out about five or six years ago is just how there weren't many people like me doing it. And it's quite a daunting thing. And I think, you know, naturally, I think women are a bit less confident than men. And it's quite intimidating if you want to start something into a field you've never done before. And if you can't see people who look like you and can relate to you and make you feel welcome and safe, it can be incredibly intimidating, yeah. Why is it so male-dominated?

I mean, I know that's historical, but can you put your finger on it? I don't know, really. I think it's a really hard question. Like, all I want to do and everything I'm doing and my initiative that I'm doing, Future 1000, is all about opening the doors to allowing basically other people who aren't just men to pursue something they're interested in. The reason

I'm not sure but I think one thing I'm really passionate about is breaking down the stigma and show that it's not just guys who are DJing and it's such a more diverse place and I just want to make it more diverse. So what is meant by gender diversity initiative? Just explain that for us. Sure. So what I'm doing is called Future 1000 and it's an initiative to encourage more girls, trans and non-binary people to enter into music and electronic music specifically. So on this course, you can learn to DJ, you can learn to make music with this software called Soundtrap. You can learn how to host radio shows

and learn the inner workings of the industry, what's a manager, how to get DJ bookings, how it all works. And the whole point of this is, one, to inspire young people to get into creative jobs and the music industry, and two, to address the gender imbalance. According to the UK Music Diversity Survey, women make up 16% of all artists, which is really low, 3% of all producers, which is even lower,

and I think it's 12% of songwriters, which is crazy. With those figures alone, that is evidence to show that um the playing field needs to be leveled and there's a lot of work to be done so who do you think is excluded right now from djing and from the industry i'd say well it's a difficult question but you know from my experience and what i've seen, it is gender minorities, women, trans and non-binary people, because you can't be what you can't see. And if you Googled, what does a DJ do? Who is a DJ? You'd probably see Calvin Harris, David Guetta, you know, big, who might not recognize themselves in a particular field like music and djing and you know djing is a big industry it's very technical it's very complicated and it's a real scene and what I like is if I play a lineup with more women I actually can see more women in the crowd whereas a lot of the time it can just be a lot of guys that you see and

I personally think the best gigs the best lineups the best music is when it's a whole mixed bag and that's what we want to do a future 1000 we want to really make sure that in the future coming through we're seeing on our lineups behind the scenes on the decks wherever we're seeing you know more women more trans and more non-binary people do you see a difference if you're on after a man djing do you see a different reaction from the crowd as well as a makeup it's interesting really i think it depends on the gig um but you know the main thing is you're playing good tunes and you're doing a good job you know and that is what makes a good dj but what i do like is

i do notice like more women at the front of my DJ sets if I'm playing, which I think is lovely. And it's just nice to see, yeah, a diverse crowd. Do you get treated differently as a woman? I'm thinking like people within the industry, as you said, it's very technical. It's not just standing there playing tracks. There's a lot of technical work that goes into that. Do you get patronised? Do people think, oh, think oh she's young she's a woman she doesn't really know what you're doing or are you respective from the word go it's I guess in my journey you know I've been I've been doing this for about five six years I'm still very much at the beginning but I've been incredibly lucky to be where I am now and I feel very privileged to be at point my where in my career where I've got

a show on radio one and I'm able to DJ around the world when it's not Covid but I've experienced you know just things like the promoter or bouncer when you go into a club doesn't know you're the DJ and then they just assume you're like I don't know there with the DJ or the DJ's girlfriend or and then you start playing and then you get this weird look or or even there's times when the sound engineer will just come over and uh start adjusting your levels on the mixer but I've never seen them do that to any of my male DJ friends they're just kind of like what are you what are you doing like do you want to ask me what you're doing there or um so there's you know

there are lots of things and that kind of comes with being a woman. So the whole point of why I'm doing Future 1000 with future DJs is to make women feel more accepted and welcomed. And I think when you do a free online course, anyone listening who is open to under 18s between the age of 12 and 18. So any parents or teachers or young people listening in that age range. It's an amazing free online course and you'll be able to just understand and learn about the music industry and DJing in a very welcoming, accessible atmosphere. And for you, what does real inclusivity look like at the end of this journey? I think real inclusivity looks like, you know, you look at, you go into a club or look at a festival lineup or you'll go into, I don't know, a record label and you'll just see a whole range of people, different genders, sexualities, ethnicities. I think for me, I'm trying to just achieve this utopian place where we can get to that and we don't need initiatives like this and we don't need to have conversations like this. But there's still a lot of work to be done

and I just think it's by recognising the problem and creating things that will make people step up and feel welcome and I think that's how we can get there. Thank you ever so much for coming in. It's so lovely to see a human face in a studio. Good to see you. That is DJ Jaguar, who is launching this initiative to make the music industry more diverse.

Now, in England and Wales, if couples want a no-fault divorce, they're going to have to wait even longer. It was hoped the new legislation would be in place this autumn, but now the Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Act 2020 is scheduled for next April. Well the delay is to give the government time to update the digital service. Currently one partner has to effectively take the blame for the breakdown of a marriage. Now the change in the law is an attempt to make the process less acrimonious though some campaigners believe the reforms don't go far enough. Well, let's speak to three women now about their experiences. We can speak to Ellie, who's in the middle of divorcing her husband of 15 years. Hi

there, Ellie. Hello. Hi. Good to see you. No, absolute pleasure. Also with us is Kate Daly, who runs Amicable, which is an online divorce service, and she believes divorces should not go through the justice service. Hi, Kate. Hi there. you and um aisha vardag is a high-profile divorce lawyer and founder of vardags hi to you aisha ellie let's start with you so you're divorcing your husband of 15 years and i understand you were waiting for the no-fault divorce. So how are you feeling in light of this delay? Well, it's been frustrating, I suppose. I'm feeling frustrated and quite disappointed, I suppose, is what I would say.

I think I am divorcing my husband now, or we are getting divorced, I think is more appropriate way of putting it. So, you know, we've been together for 20 years we've been married for 15 we have four amazing children we never or i never we never went into this thinking we're gonna have four kids and then we're gonna get divorced you know um so it's been i'm sure i don't need to explain a very painful and difficult process um and we decided to separate in march of last year and we agreed you know then i i felt the no-fault divorce was on the way. We agreed we'd wait for it.

And then gradually it became more and more obvious that it wasn't coming. And I think, you know, practically speaking, mentally, emotionally and practically, it feels right to divorce. The option of waiting for two years just feels painful for everyone involved really um didn't feel right so we we did make the decision to get divorced based on the system where one of us petitions and you know we luckily got to a point where we we knew that that's what was going to happen and and one of us petitions the other one agreed they wouldn't contest um but it's it's a really you know it feels to me very archaic and outdated. And, you know, I have been shocked, actually.

Perhaps I was a little naive, but I've been shocked by the amount of stigma that still surrounds divorce. Really? Yeah, I have. You know, there's still a real blame culture. And I think, you know, no fault divorce is so important in addressing that everyone that I speak to it's been fascinating wants to know whose fault it is and actually what's happened is you know we we met when we were in our early 20s we married in our mid-20s we're now in our 40s we've grown apart you know it's that old cliche but it's a cliche for a

reason the marriage is no longer working so we've had to make the difficult decision to end the marriage because I think that's the right thing to do for everyone involved. But yeah, it seems that people still want to blame someone. And that to me seems shocking. And I feel very strongly that actually divorce isn't just an ending. It is an ending, obviously. And there's a grieving process that comes with that for everybody involved. But it's also a beginning. You know, for me me it's the beginning of a new relationship with my ex-husband we will always be in each other's lives because we have four amazing children together um and you know I want to do that in a way that feels constructive it feels very difficult I think to exit in marriage with dignity and respect. That's what I absolutely want to do.

So it's a shame that we've had to go down this route. Well, let me bring in Aisha and Kate, because I think it's important for people to understand. And thank you for eloquently putting forward what you're going through right now, which must be incredibly difficult. Aisha, it sounds like people are feeling trapped. Some people are feeling trapped in marriages because of this delay. I mean, I've always been lobbying so hard for no-fault divorce to come in from the very beginning. So for me, it's a huge relief that this culture of blame is at least starting to be reduced. And this kind of poison, this rottenness in the heart of our family justice

system that was all about couples slinging mud at each other and blaming each other is now going to go. But the way we've dealt with it in the past, I can completely understand couples waiting because now this is in prospect. But the way we've dealt with this in the past when couples have wanted to get out of marriages without apportioning blame is what's called a weak petition. So you agree, you'll use some very weak form of words like you became very distant and cold or increasingly didn't spend time at home

or was rude about my mother. You find something that's small small that isn't too cruel but even that is uh is still distressing and it puts the blame on somebody whereas in most cases it really genuinely is as Ellie says two people you've just changed in different ways and arrived at a point that they'd rather part and change the nature of their relationship. Kate, come in on this, because I know that your service works in presenting a different route to divorce. Yes, that's right. I mean, we uniquely offer a couples service. So if you go to a lawyer, they're only allowed to represent one of you. So instantly you're setting up two sides, whereas our service works with couples and people like Ellie,

who's one of our customers, where they've agreed that marriage is broken down, don't want to make a fight of it. And therefore we help them as with what Aisha was saying, with a form of words that they can agree on the petition. And we work with both people together to help the emotional journey alongside the legal process so our focus is very much more on the sorts of things that Ellie was saying where you know it is an awful situation that people find themselves in they are struggling with guilt with shame and we're helping them navigate that emotional journey so that they can part on good terms because most people or many people have children when they're divorcing and as Ellie said you're not ending the relationship you're changing the relationship so a big focus for us is trying

to help people create that co-parenting relationship. And we're very lucky because we've been part of a founding group called the Parenting Promise that prioritises the needs of children when people are getting divorced. So it's coming at it from a much more amicable approach. And as Aisha was saying, there are ways of writing. We call ourselves specialists in mild behavior petitions so if people listening do find themselves trapped in this situation because of the delay in the no fault legislation then we can help and we do offer free telephone advice so i do encourage people to get in touch if they're concerned about being stuck i was talking to a lady the other day she phoned on that service and she was in tears just saying that, you know, she and her husband had agreed that the marriage had broken down, they'd agreed they wanted to divorce, they were going to wait for no-fault divorce because they felt that that would be down is just so awful. She was just sobbing, saying, I don't want my children to suffer because I can't cope any longer being in this situation.

And, you know, it's that situation that, of course, we understand the government has got to get the system right. But the individual stories that you hear, the pain, the emotional pain of being stuck in that situation is just quite awful. So there is a different way around it. We can help people. And I would encourage people to get in touch if they are stuck in that situation and don't feel they can wait. Ellie, for you, I mean, some people may say, you know, don't you want a lawyer battling for you to make sure that you get what you're owed or is the problem the terminology around divorce that

people use words like battle I think it is naturally still seen as a process that is adversarial and I have had so many people say that to me you know protect yourself and I know that my ex-partner has too you know it's been very difficult to kind of tune those voices out and what that does is you know going back to the point that was made earlier on the show about the anxiety of uncertainty you know it's a very frightening process I think when you've even as a grown woman you know you're entering into a process you don't really understand it feels like all the power kind of lies with the legal system um and it is a bit scary and you do I do think oh my god do I need a lawyer but actually I choose I have chosen not to go down that route because I don't want it to be adversarial

and actually you know the people the ones that lose out in that case and that's why I think as you said Kate the parents promise is so important the ones that lose out when divorces become high in conflict are the children you know the children are the ones that end up carrying all of that and that the distress for them is is you know is not great and I think it's the system seems to me to be a little bit geared towards weaponizing heartbreak that's kind of how I see it it's very much you know you're going through a really painful raw time and um you know it's just I don't think it has to be that way and that's why Amical has been so good because actually what it does is it encourages communication between the two of you you know rather than talking through lawyers um you know you're

talking with your divorce coach you're talking together all the time and that's so important in creating that relationship going forward as well. Well, let me put that point to Aisha, weaponising heartbreak. Do you think sometimes lawyers can be guilty of pushing things harder to make it more adversarial than actually maybe needs to be? Yes, I absolutely agree with that. That's something that I feel actually quite strongly about. And I see it all the time. And people moving, you know, lawyers moving into quite personal attacks on the other party and sort of revving their own client up. So as, indeed, to weaponise their fear, to weaponise their heartbreak, it's a very good expression. However, and I do think that services like this, and indeed all mediation services, including the court-organised mediation service, whereby before you start financial proceedings you actually have to go through a mediation service, unless it's not appropriate

to do so, which hopefully will result in an agreement which you can then put through the court. So that is very much built into the court process, and also their private mediation services as well. And I think Amical sounds like it's doing great, great work for cases where that works. And it's wonderful there should be more of this. However, there are cases where it doesn't work to do this. One of the situations is where it might

be quite a straightforward case you know what the assets are you know what the issues are but uh both parties have got a very different perspective on it and just can't agree then you can't just go on chatting about it forever and you and however good your mediator is they're not going to get you to a result by you know to agree by waving a magic wand although if they're very skilled of course they can help and so and so that's the point so that's the point where you say you would need a lawyer to step in. Listen, thank you so much, all of you. Thank you. Thank you, Aisha. Thank you all of you for joining us this morning.

Aisha Vardag, who is founder of Vardag's Lawyers. Kate Daly, who runs Amicable. And we also heard from Ellie there, who is getting divorced. And best of luck Ellie with what goes forward for you. Kelly has got in touch on Twitter. Divorce is tough. There should be no culture of blame.

Many couples grow apart and decide to go it alone. There's nothing wrong with that. You only have one life. We were also talking about leadership earlier on and about the best forms of leadership and indeed the worst.

This text says, I've always wondered are introverted people not meant for leadership at all? Do you have to be extroverted to lead? I consider myself to be an introvert and almost feel like I have to pretend to be loud and expressive if I want to move up in an organisation. Thank you for those thoughts this morning. And also another tweet here from Sheila saying, I couldn't agree more with Baroness Amos and Matthew Barz

and about the importance of listening and constellation leadership. We need to shift more to a world where we are listening, easier said than done, but much more fulfilling and respectful way to live. You can carry on getting in touch with us.

We're on social media at BBC Women's Hour. You can text us on 84844. Now, Euro 2020 starts tonight in Rome and three of the home nations England, Scotland and Wales are in with a chance. There's the hope it could raise our spirits of course after a very trying 18 months. Well in the Women's Super League the transfer window opens today and there's a new rule forcing clubs to include eight homegrown players in their squad they must have been trained by their club or another English club for at least three years before their 21st birthday well let's speak to Charlie Webster who is a BBC sports reporter

hi there Charlie hi there how you doing good thank you um tell me about the eight player rule I know there's similar rules in men's football. Why was it felt necessary to bring it in in the women's game? Yes, this was actually brought in last, well, it's implemented this year, as you just mentioned there, but it was last year that it was discussed, an agreement was made that it needed to marry up with the men's game, which you just said is a minimum of eight homegrown players. And that doesn't necessarily mean they're from England, but it means that they're trained within the English system. And we see that in the men's game. And that doesn't necessarily mean they're from England, but it means that they're trained within the English system. And we see that in the men's game. And the reason why it was brought in is because we saw an influx,

which I don't know, I think was a good thing. Last summer, 30 international players, mainly a lot of U.S. stars we saw come in, Alex Morgan, Penal Harden, Tomin Heath, Christian Press. And we know from the Women's World Cup how impressive the US side is. And also their grassroots system is so much far more advanced through their college leagues, basically, than our grassroots women's game, although it's improving massively. So I think it's a really good thing that's come in. But I also don't think it's a bad thing that we're attracting international talent.

Because if you look at the men's game in the Premier League, the Premier League dominates worldwide. And that's because it can bring in and attract the international talent. So I think it's about finding that balance. So bringing that rule of a minimum of eight homegrown players, which they decided on last year, will be implemented going into this season. And I think it'll still be a really exciting transfer window. And it's all about finding that balance,

not just necessarily focusing on English talent, but making sure we attract international stars at the same time as really developing some of the key talent that we have. For example, Nikita Paris at the moment, she went over to Lyon and there's talks that she's probably going to be coming back to the Women's Super League this season

and playing her football out in England. And I think she's such an incredible talent that we should be really developing her here. England international, of course, Nikita Paris. Let's talk as well about the nature of the transfer market in the women's game. It's very interesting, isn't it? Because most of these women are on short term deals deals, one-year deals. So there's going to be lots of free transfers within the market. I'm wondering if that makes it more interesting than the men's game? I think we have to be careful sometimes to draw those comparisons all the time. I'm not a big fan of the… Sorry, what I meant, and you're absolutely right, as I said it,

I thought I shouldn't be drawing comparisons. What I mean is, you know, it used to be, you know, in the men's game, it's big money brings people in. But if people are at the end of their contracts and they're on free transfers, then I guess other clubs get a look in. Yeah, definitely. And I think I just mentioned two stars from the United States, Tobin Heath and Christian Press,

and they spent one season with Manchester United and then they'll probably go back over to the US. And I think in a way you're probably right. It does make it more exciting. And there's that chance to bring in and have those superstars to develop the teams over here. And I think it does make it really exciting. We saw a fantastic transfer window last summer

and I think we'll really see the same and a lot of movement as well. And I think, I don't know, and a lot of movement as well so and I think I don't know I really enjoy seeing those superstars come over and like Vivian Medema as well that we saw come over here and play their football for a short term over here and then go back to their home countries and I think it really adds to to the development of football over here and the teams over here. So who are we hoping will come? You've mentioned Nikita Paris. What other big names should we keep an eye out for?

Oh gosh, I think Nikita Paris is the main one. I think Vivian Medema will probably leave. She's played her football at Arsenal. She's got one year left as well. Nikita Paris, as I mentioned, she's had a great season at Lyon and who have pretty much won everything. There's talk about whether, I don't't know she'd possibly come into Manchester United and Tony Duggan as well and she went over to oh she's like basically poised to move back from Atletico Madrid you

know it's really interesting that first question you asked me even when I'm talking about some of the people that input that kind of outgoing of of british english stars as well going abroad which i think is really interesting because that shows how much talent we're actually bringing up and homegrown as well um the likes of lauren james will be interesting um karen bardy i'm actually a really big fan of bardy as bardy as well she's currently on loan over in the States too. Talk about her coming back. Like again, I could just sit and list plenty of names for you, which shows, brings to the point of your, the extensive free transfer market. Let's also talk about how training has changed for women, because it's not that long ago that women often didn't get to train in the same facilities as men.

All of those things are helping to grow the game and give it an equal footing as it rightly should have. Yeah, I'm glad you've brought this point up. I think one really good example is if you look at what Emma Hayes has done at Chelsea. She's been at Chelsea now for probably around a decade. She's now got the investment. She's got the resources. She's got the board support.'s got that that squad um depth now but she came in not just as a manager and as a leader like we see on the pitch but she made sure that things like the kit was washed because even things like that weren't implemented but we also have to remember well firstly there's an amazing um eight million pound per season deal done with bbc and sky and the media as we know from what we've seen with the men's game

of the premier league plays a massive part in making sure that um leagues are sustainable and that's the real key thing with the women's super league at the moment it's not quite sustainable on its own so that needs to be the next decade but what we have to remember and i i say this quite a lot, actually, even myself when I think about sometimes the disparities, but then I'm like, hang on a second. Only 10 years ago, the women's game was semi-pro. Only 10 years ago.

And if you think of the depth and the history of the men's game, it's developed so much. I mean from when I when I was a young kid it wasn't the kind of like superstar premier league so that it is now so I think we have to remember how recent history and how incredible the growth has been over the last 10 years again you know um I'm not I'm not of an older decade of an older age group and when I was at school it wasn't possible like I used to play football at school and it wasn't even possible for me to imagine that I could ever do that as anything other

than just as a hobby. But now that's changed dramatically and that's only in one generation. So I think we're just going to see it increase and increase. And like you said, the facilities, although there's a slight argument at the moment at Manchester United, Casey Stoney is left as manager and the

talk is that she left because of the training facilities so I think there is still a lot of improvement there's a lot to do but we can't forget that it's only been 10 years and we just need to keep on going and things are dramatically changing I mean for example my goddaughter had Lucy Bronze on the back of her shirt recently and we wouldn't have seen that 10 years ago. Definitely not. Listen, Charlie, we've got to leave it there. But thank you ever so much. And I've got to say that Charlie's actually at a wild water swimming event.

She's just been swimming herself. She's got out of the water. She must be absolutely freezing. So, Charlie, go. Warm up. You should see the state of me. Charlie, thank you so much for your time. Charlie Webster there, who is a BBC sports reporter.

We talk about divorce, weren't we, a few moments ago. I've had this tweet from Alison. We amicably divided our assets at separation, but in legal terms, we were still financially linked till nearly three years on when our divorce was finalised. Another one here,

email from Pam. What happened to two years apart by consent? It was a brilliant option back in the 1980s when I got divorced. Where has it gone? No blame, no fault, no court appearance.

Easy. You can get in touch with us, 84844 on the text. Now today, the new figurehead known as Nanny will start to be installed on the famous ship Cutty Sark, the tea clipper that resides in a specially designed dry dock in Greenwich next to the River Thames in London. Now figureheads, those are the wooden sculptures that decorate the prows of sailing

ships. And we can speak to Louise McFarlane, who is Senior Curator at the Cutty Sark. So, tell me, first of all, Louise, this woman, Nanny, often a woman, isn't it, who was at the front of these ships? What was that for? For good luck? For protection? That's right. Thank you very much for having me, by the way. Lovely to be here. Yes, that's right. They weren't exclusively female. I mean, in the 19th century when Cutty Sark was built, there was certainly a proliferation of female figureheads, but they weren't all female. So they could be men, they could be mythical figures, they could be animals, they could be anything. And figureheads, we know, have been on ships for thousands of years. We don't know the precise original reason why they were put on ships.

But really what they came to do was embody the spirit of a ship and also protect the ship. So, of course, that the sea is a perilous place and a figurehead was there to protect its charges from possible danger. Now Nanny, as she's known, I didn't realise she's actually wearing the Cutty Sark. I didn't know what this was. Just explain it to us. That's right. Yes. Yes. So the name comes from the Robert Burns poem, the narrative poem Tam O'Shanta. So the owner of Cutty Sark was a very proud Scotsman. He named most of his ships after Scottish places or other Robert Burns poems. And the poem itself concerns Tam. He's a rather drunk farmer who's on his way home from the market and he encounters a coven of witches, as you do. And among the witches is this young and beautiful witch. All the other ones are old and haggard,

and as you might imagine witches to be. But Nanny is young and beautiful, and she's wearing a short revealing nightdress known as a cutty sark in Old Scots. And Tam, in his excitement, exclaims, and we'll done cutty sark, thus revealing the fact that he's actually been spying on them. None too happy about it the the witches actually give chase now um tam on his trusty horse maggie he sets out for a river because he knows and i must confess i didn't know this until i started in this job uh witches can't cross running water um so yeah so he headed for a river and he just about managed to escape Nanny's clutches before she grabbed the tail from Mags. So Nanny wearing her short and revealing cutty sark, holding a horse's tail, became cutty sark's figurehead.

How are they going to get her up there? I'm guessing she's pretty huge and pretty heavy. Pretty huge and pretty heavy. Absolutely. Yes. A crane is going to be involved. It's going to take a number of days. We expect it to be completed next week. For those who've actually visited the ship, you'll know that there's actually a glass canopy beneath where the figurehead will be. So you have to get the old one down and then get the new one up without causing any damage to that glass. So it's going to take some time, but next week our new nanny should be in pride of place. And briefly, if you would, why was she beautiful, then scowling and now beautiful again?

Well, the original design was by Hercules Linton. Hercules Linton designed Cutty Stark as well. And in keeping with Robert Burns' poem, he designed a very beautiful, elegant, but slightly cross witch. The designers of the figurehead that's being removed, they designed this and built it in the 1950s. They actually didn't have access to this design. This design has only been uncovered since the 1950s. So it's making it more realistic today, if you like, making it more reflective.

Listen, Louise, we've got to leave it there. More realistic and more... No, go ahead, that's fine. I understand, more realistic and more reflective of how it should have been back in the day with the original nanny, because there have been a few nannies, because obviously they get very weathered.

Louise, thank you so much for your time. Louise McFarlane, their senior curator at the Cutty Sark. Thank you for listening and remember you can join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. Welcome to Descendants, the series which looks into our lives and our past and asks something pretty simple. How close are each of our lives to the legacy of Britain's role in slavery? And who does that mean our lives are linked to? Narrated by me, Yersa Daly Ward, we hear from those who have found themselves connected to each other through this history.

Whoever you are, wherever you are in Britain, the chances are this touches your life somewhere, somehow. Descendants from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.