Woman's Hour - Nao, Women in Ukraine, Signs of teenage exploitation

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Nao is a Grammy and Mercury nominated singer songwriter. She's described her unique brand of music as “wonky funk”. She joins Nuala McGovern to talk about fame, motherhood and her new album Jupiter. She performs live in the studio. As European leaders are set to meet in Paris later today today for an emergency summit on the war in Ukraine, the Prime Minister has said he is 'ready and willing' to commit British troops to the conflict. And the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio is heading to Saudi Arabia for talks with Russia. Three years on since the war began, we get reaction from Ukrainian women to the possible outcomes of these talks. Nuala talks to Ukrainian journalist, Kateryna Khinkulova, Editor of the Europe Hub for the BBC World Service and the female Ukrainian MP Lesia Vasylenko. Do you remember TV’s Alan Partridge’s long-time suffering personal assistant, Lynn? She is the inspiration for a new play, Lynn Faces. Nearly 40, and emerging from a toxic relationship, Leah starts a punk band and takes to the stage with no musical ability. Performed as a gig with lots of original songs, Lynn Faces explores hope after abuse, the power of friendship and how silliness can be healing. Nuala talks to the writer Laura Horton, who also plays drums in the production. The Children’s Society are training staff at the fast food chain Chicken Cottage to spot signs of exploitation amongst their teenage customers. Nuala discusses the initiative and issues with the charity’s Head of National Programmes, Lisa Witherden, and Chicken Cottage franchise manager Georgian Balog.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, we will speak to a female Ukrainian MP in a moment. As you've been hearing in the news bulletin, European leaders are meeting for emergency talks in Paris.

More talks expected to get underway tomorrow in Saudi Arabia. That will be between the US and Russia. Also coming up this hour we'll hear about a new project by the charity The Children's Society that wants to target the exploitation of teenagers by training staff who work at chicken shops. Also, we're going to have a performance by Nao. Her new album is Jupiter. She calls it the Planet of Joy. I've just been listening to her in the corridor, actually, and we really have something to look forward to.

So stay with us for that. Some more good news. According to a small study in today's papers, dancing for 20 minutes each day could be enough to give you your recommended weekly exercise. But do you have dance in your life? Or is it something perhaps that waned when other responsibilities took over? Or perhaps you're one of those people that makes time to dance? How? Inspire your fellow listeners this morning. Now I have heard from one woman who makes it her mission to get to work 20 minutes before the team arrives so she can blast a few tunes and get her dancing in.

So according to this study, solo free form dancing. Interpret that as you will. That does the trick. No dance skills are required. But I want to know if it's a kitchen or a workplace, disco, clubbing, a dance class. What is it you do? What do you get from it? The way to get in touch. 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a

voice note at 03700 100444. Right. Also coming up on today's programme, a play based on the character of Lynn. Remember the long suffering assistant of Alan Partridge? That comedy that started almost 30 years ago. Quite different. We will talk about that as well. But let me begin indeed with news you're hearing this morning that European leaders, they're meeting in Paris later today for an emergency summit on the war in Ukraine. The Prime Minister has said he is ready and willing to commit British troops to the conflict,

but these aren't the only set of talks that are scheduled to discuss the situation. The US Secretary of State, that's Marco Rubio, is heading to Saudi Arabia for talks with Russia. A government source has told the BBC that Ukraine has not been invited to those talks in Saudi Arabia. So we are three years on from when this war began. What can be expected to come from these talks and things seem to be moving at quite a rapid pace. Also we want to hear how things are both inside and outside of the country for Ukrainian women and children. And when I talk about British troops, of course, committing to the conflict, as the Prime Minister has said,

that is to peacekeeping, just to be really specific with that. Let's hear more from the Ukrainian journalist Kateryna Kinkalova, editor of the Europe Hub for the BBC World Service, joining me live in the studio this morning. We are also on the line with the female Ukrainian MP Lesia Vasylenko. We spoke to her at the beginning of the conflict, quite something that it's almost three years, it will be later this week since this began. Thank you both for joining us. Let me start with you, Katerina. Separate talks going on, how do you understand that? separate talks going on, how do you understand that? Well these last three or four days have really been this kind of snowball of events and I think for anyone who's been following the events in Ukraine and also diplomatic activity around it, really flabbergasted by everything that's just happened.

But none of it came really unexpected. Newly re-elected United States President, President Trump, had always said that he wants to sort out the war in Ukraine. He was talking about ending it in one day. He never quite revealed what plan he had, and we still don't know what the plan is. So we still haven't heard from him or from his team or from his defense secretary what it is that the U.S. wants to do. But what's been happening is that the sort of direct communication between the United States and Russia seemingly bypassing Ukraine,

who of course needs to be part of these negotiations since they concern or they would concern its future, but also Europe because these any potential talks around the settlement and ceasefire or the future arrangements around Ukraine, what shape, you know, its borders, what they would look like, that also all impacts the future security of Europe, and Europe both Eastern and Western and the United Kingdom, even though it's quite a long way away from Ukraine. So the talks that we see happening at the moment is one set of them between the United States and Russia in Saudi Arabia.

As far as we know, the timings have been all off. We don't really know, kind of journalists are kept really in the dark about all of this, but we believe that for foreign minister of Russia, Sergey Lavrov, and also one of President Putin's top aides are flying to Saudi Arabia, where they'll be meeting with the United States delegation whilst in Paris, we have this emergency meeting between the leaders of the various European countries, including United Kingdom and Ukraine, to decide on their stance. And how I read the situation is this Europe and Ukraine's effort to kind of wrestle back initiative from the United States and from Russia and

to say very clearly that the future of Europe and the future of Ukraine, really that they want to have just be big say in that and really it's up to them to decide how it's shaped. Well let me bring in Lesia Vasylenko, Ukrainian MP, your party is Holos, which means voice or vote in Ukrainian. I'm wondering, is that how you see it? Katerina was saying there, in a way it could be seen like President Trump is bypassing Ukraine. Only in a certain way, but I do agree absolutely with Katerina that Ukraine needs to be at the decision-making table. There can be no talks about Ukraine without Ukraine and definitely

no decisions about Ukraine without Ukraine. If such decisions are made, and it's a big if, they will not lead to peace, especially the long-term peace that everyone is hoping for, but they will only lead to a deterioration of the situation in the long term and to a restart of Russia's aggression. I think that the American president, President Trump, is well aware of that and he knows how high the stakes are. But again, as any global leader who has assumed the position of leadership in his own country, he wants to have a go, have a try at settling the situation

and at bringing peace to the world. It's an ambitious goal. You will have seen, as I have seen, and probably our listeners, that the US Secretary of Defense, that's Pete Hegsett, new Secretary of Defense, of course, Trump's pick, said that a return to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is unrealistic, kind of going back to 10 years ago, really, when the conflict began in the eastern part of the country. He's also said that NATO membership for Ukraine as a result of this peace settlement wasn't realistic either. How far or how comfortable are you with the compromise that the US seems to be at least

floating, if not saying it in certain terms basically that Ukraine won't get what it wants. It's not about Ukraine. It's not a compromise between Ukraine and Russia either. Really? It's a compromise with international law, with the very world order in which we all as a global society have been living in since the World War Two. So if Ukraine is being asked to give up territories, to forget about the internationally recognized borders of 1991 when Ukraine became an independent state and when Russia recognized this, basically America is asking the world to forget about international law and to allow

for aggression to prevail with the consequences of aggression prevailing over the UN Charter and over international principles. Where will that lead us? In the opinion of many historians, you will find to further wars, escalated wars and conflicts across the globe. Because as we know, and Katerina, maybe I'll bring you in here as well, it was predominantly women and children that left Ukraine once this war got underway. I mean, do we even have an idea of how many people it is that spread around the globe?

Well, according to the UN the number of people who became displaced is around 10 million and over 6 million are believed to have left Ukraine. It's quite the numbers are quite complicated because a lot of people kind of travel backwards and forwards but as you say yes the majority of those is women and children. So with that, we know whenever we speak to Ukrainian women that they want to go home. Is that worth, Ms. Vasilenko, a compromise for those people to be able to return to their homes? The problem is with that kind of compromise, those people will not have a home to return to. Because when you are asking Ukraine to forget about the territories that were under

the Ukrainian flag in 2014 and in 2022 even, you're basically depriving millions of people of their homes because presumably the territories in question will be areas in Donetsk region, Luhansk region, Kharkiv region, Kherson region. And this is areas, it's not just fields or forests. This is villages, towns, cities even, which will no longer be Ukraine. So where do you suggest that these women with their children, with their elderly parents who have been forcefully displaced by the war will come back to, certainly not under the Russian flag I presume. And just to put those cities that you have mentioned there in perspective, they're on the eastern part of the country and some that have been caught

up in conflict for 10 years, coming up to 11 actually at this point. Are there Katerina women involved in these discussions that are taking place, whether in Saudi Arabia or indeed in Paris? On the surface, visibly, we don't see any women immediately, but I think probably Ms. Vyselenko is a better place to talk about this because she's closer to the government and she will be able to tell you. There are very prominent women in Ukrainian government, in Parliament, well, Ms. Vyslanka included, but also Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister Oleh Stefanishina. There are a lot of women, in

fact, you and I spoke about women stepping into various roles that they didn't have before the war. And there's a story at the moment about the miners, about the minors, about the women who are minors in Ukraine that are talking about standing firm. Absolutely. But also what has to be said about Ukrainian society, that it's been for many, well, certainly for the past 30

years, but even for decades before that, it's not really a society where women were really marginalized. I mean, it's again, I don't want to simplify things. Women didn't have everything they wanted, and a lot of the time they had more than they wanted, you know, juggling roles, working at home, working at work. But in Ukraine, it's quite normal for women to be in decision-making roles, whether it's in politics or in business or running large media companies and things like that. But in terms of women being part of these negotiations, so yes, because there are women

in government, in president's office and so forth, but perhaps Ms. Vassilenko is better placed. Would you like to pick up on that? Yes, of course. I mean, of course, when you're talking about sitting down at the decision-making table, it's going to be done by the leaders of state. Neither the United Kingdom, the United States or Ukraine have a woman as head of state, as we are all well aware. However, the preparation takes place under the leadership of various public political figures in the government.

So for example, Yulia Svernenko, who is the Deputy Minister on the economy, she is leading currently a delegation to the Middle East, which includes Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emiratesates and all of this preceding President Zelensky's visit to those very states. So usually a team is sent out which is headed, as you have correctly said, by one of the deputy prime ministers in Ukraine. Both of them are women. One is Olhazdefinitiona, one is Yulia Sverdenko. You know we have a live page on the BBC that is talking about what's happening with these meetings but also the situation on the ground and the attacks

continue if people have forgotten with Ukraine and Russia of exactly what is taking place there is still a violent conflict taking place between the two countries. But I'm wondering, Ms. Vasylenko, I mean, are you hopeful when you see these talks? I know everything you've told me so far is that they are not happening the way that you would like them to, as I understand it, for Ukraine isn't as involved with the US, for example, as you would like. Are you hopeful that any solution or compromise might happen in a short timeframe? In Ukraine, what we have learned in the last three years, but actually for more years than

that, is to always remain hopeful and that hope doesn't die. Hope is the last thing that will die. So there's glimmers of hope, of course, every time there's an announcement that possibly, you know, there will be a dialogue going on between President Trump and Putin. And within the margins of that dialogue, President Trump hopes to talk some sense into the power crazed leader of our neighboring nation state. But again, there's no harm in trying. We're all very supportive for any opportunities that can arise that might bring peace to Ukraine. Whether they will come and in what form,

that's another matter. And that's a matter that needs to be discussed with Ukrainians. Yeah, you are a mother to three children yourself, as I understand. I mean, what would you say to the mothers that are in other places of the world that want to come home? It's an extremely difficult and challenging situation to be in and this is just putting it extremely mildly and diplomatically. Sometimes the circumstances that will put us in are simply exasperating and require mothers to function at the very edge

of what is humanly possible. But in the end, we find the strengths to provide our children with the safety and security that they need to grow up into dignified adults that know the meaning of freedom, liberty and independence. I think this is our biggest role as mothers. As long as we keep that goal and that hope going in front of us, I think we'll be fine. We'll be fine so long as to see the roads open up back to our own homes, back to our own countries, where we can bring our kids back to live in the safety and comfort of a peaceful world.

Ukrainian MP Lesia Vasylenko, thank you so much. And also with me, Katerina Inkolova, who is the editor of the Europe Hub for the BBC World Service. Now, lots of you have been getting in touch. I was asking you at the beginning, do you dance? You're dancing maybe before woman's hour, during woman's hour, after woman's hour in your kitchen. Maybe you have a dance class you go to. and it's because 20 minutes of exercise apparently is all it takes to reach what should be the recommended exercise for a week and lots of you have been getting in touch as you've been listening. Debbie says my neighbor and I once a week push back all the furniture in my kitchen living room and put on some 80s tunes and do 20

minutes of disco aerobics. We're in our 60s, we probably look hilarious. I wear an old pair of stretched jodhpurs for riding in that I don't do anymore, okay, and borrowed trainers, but who cares? We're moving and then we have coffee and toast. Love it. Isabel from Kent says, dancing and singing both badly to Abba while doing the ironing is a spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine and the pile of clothes go down. Another, our two year old loves dancing. So we have a mini, this must be hilarious too, a mini toddler rave every evening after dinner, lots of fun, and it includes all the family. 8-4, 8-4-4 if you would like to get in touch with your dancing tales.

Now, do you remember Now, do you remember TV's Alan Partridge's long-time suffering personal assistant, Lynne? I picked up these bruches for the new Metro. It's a lovely car. Lynne, I'm not driving a mini Metro. But you do have to make substantial savings. Lynne, I'm not driving a mini Metro. But if you do, you can keep Petty Productions going with a skeleton staff of two. There's no point finishing the sentence, Lynne, because I'm not driving a mini-metro. But if you do, you can keep Petri Productions going with a skeleton staff of two... There's no point finishing the sentence, because I'm not driving a mini-metro.

But if you... Lin, I'll just speak over you. But I... LAUGHTER Go on, try and finish the sentence and see what I do. LAUGHTER Go on. I'm not driving a mini-metro.

LAUGHTER Go on. I'm not driving a Mini-Match. Oh, so good. I have to say I loved having to prep and watch a little bit more of Lyn and Alan because Lyn is the inspiration for a new play called Lyn Faces. Yeah, faces that Lyn pulls. So she's nearly 40, emerging from a toxic relationship, this woman starts a punk band and takes to the stage with absolutely no musical ability. It's performed as a gig with lots of original songs and Lynne Faces, the play, hopes to explore what happens and what can be uplifting or empowering after abuse. Also what friendship can offer at

that point and how pure silliness, we're talking a little bit about that this morning as well, how it can be so healing. It's written by Laura Horton and she plays drums in the production. She is sitting opposite me in the Woman's Hour studio right now. Welcome. Tell me about how Lynn came to be your inspiration for your latest project. I've loved Lynn for a long time. So at university I watched Alan Partridge all the time and I have a school friend, Becky, and one day I pulled a face, must have been some kind of gurn and she said, oh, that's a Lynn face. And so that became a thing that we did together. And then I met Vivian Albertine from The Slits. Which are a punk band.

Yeah, amazing punk band from the 70s who I don't think quite have the recognition they deserve. And had a great conversation with her and she helped me to sort of, I think she could see that I was in something that wasn't great. As a relationship. Yeah. And she said you should read my book. So I did and then it just sort of came together. My friend had tasked me to take Linfaces of people basically in this month where I didn't have any money and so I had all these Linfaces and I just thought... People pulling a Linface. Random people.

Random people. Some people didn't know what on earth was happening. Some people loved it. And then it just sort of pulled together from that really and I'm a playwright anyway but I did get incredibly drunk in the pub after end of a bad breakup and I was like I'm gonna start a band I've always wanted to be in a band so I booked a gig in the bottom of a pub basement in Plymouth and then sobered up and nobody that had agreed to do it could play anything and I thought okay that's not that's not gonna happen and but it just stuck in my head and I had all these ideas for the staging and we'd get a crochet cow and all these things and so I just thought, well, it's a play.

And then I spoke to a few theatres, some of them looked horrified. Some of them were like, this is amazing. Norwich Theatre, Theatrical Plymouth, New Diorama. Norwich, for those not familiar with Alan Prchridge, that's where it's all set. So it's kind of full circle. Yeah, and it went from there. And so it's been amazing. It's my first time performing and it's been a really healing thing as well. Making something so sort of weird, but people seem to be able to relate to it as well.

So I love that you're planning under the influence. Your POI actually came into into realisation. And I suppose we should as well. We played a little clip of Lynne there, but many people won't have watched Alan Partridge or know who she is. How would you describe her for the uninitiated? She's a long suffering assistant of Alan Partridge, who has a media career. And she's paid. But he is an egocentric, inept...

Very inept man and she kind of keeps everything together for him. She's only paid, I believe, nine and a half thousand pounds a year in I'm Alan Partridge and she sort of does everything, keeps him ticking along and she's a wearer of a snazzy cardigan and I feel like with Lynne you can tell in some of the episodes there's just something bubbling away under the surface you can feel that she's got more to say and more to give and she's not allowed and so I think that kind of really appealed to me in this play as well. I think I'm really shy I'm a very shy person when I was younger I was told I was too average to be a writer.

What a terrible thing to say to anybody. I wasn't allowed in recorder club because of the same reason. So in the play, there's a moment where someone has a recorder sole and they say, they make a comment about, yes, see me now Mrs. Clint, which is a fictional name. And I kind of wanted to look at that and tackle that. And why is it that if you're a quieter person, why don't people see your worth? And I think you get often underestimated. And so and I definitely have been. So I think for me, it was a bit of a fight back maybe as well. Yeah, under the the guise of Lynn. You mentioned that it's like you wanted to be in a band and form... so the punk band, you've also formed a punk band, maybe taking some inspiration

from the slits as well, but none of them can play very well. Loosely. So Madeleine McMahon who plays Leah, the woman in the play who's coming out of all is kind of still in this abusive... The central character. Yeah, the central character. She can play a bit of guitar and then we have, we have a, I mean, no one should come thinking this is going to be like a beautifully put together gig and it is quite interesting watching the audience as they look quite battle. What faces are they pulling, Laura? They're definitely going to.

Some love it. Some get really on board. Others look very confused. But I feel like most people come, go with it, and they get behind her. And with an open mind. You play drums? Yes, loosely.

Not in real life. I've learnt minimal. It's interesting as well being in a band, quote unquote, that doesn't get better. So we've been on tour and we're never going to improve as individuals because we're playing the same songs in the same way every night. But I will have a drum kit by the end of this because I've had to buy all the instruments for the play.

So I am thinking and maybe I will maybe keep this going. Yeah, maybe beauty in the chaos. Yeah. You know, I think it could be something that you will actually continue to improve, no? I'd like to. I mean, the songs actually, they get incrementally better. There is a, yeah, some of them are just just dreadful, but kind of deliberately so.

Which is totally charming as well. Will She Go Here is that song. But it does bring up some of the issues there. Confidence, of course, is the word that comes through. And you mentioned that the play is partly inspired by your own story of an abusive relationship. the impact it had on you and Viv Albertine from the punk band The Slits, pointing that out to you. But I was struck by something that I read that you say, write from the scar, not from the wound. Explain that to me. I think if I had tried to write this play when this was happening, or even in the few short years afterwards, I wouldn't have been able to do it. I think it would have been damaging but I've now had a lot of therapy and it's many many years on and I feel that I'm able to write from experience and it's kind of it's meant that the process

has been cathartic but it's not therapy for me it's more I feel like the art is better and I'm not writing about, it's fictionalized. I would never write about real people. And so I think it was important for me. I have gone to see things where I haven't felt safe in the audience, where you feel like, oh, I don't think this person is okay. And I think when something is too personal, basically, or too raw. Yeah, I think it can have a really damaging effect. I used to work as a publicist and sometimes would work with people who were presenting very personal pieces and it was very hard for them to read reviews or because it was so personal. This is their life.

Yeah. And so I think for me, I was always quite careful that I wouldn't do that. And to have that distance. But what about that word confidence? How did you gain your confidence back after that relationship? It took years. I don't think I fully understood coercive control and gaslighting. And I would have visceral kind of reactions to things afterwards. And it was a number of things.

I think friends and family being able to slowly talk to me and being able to actually say things that had happened, because I hid a lot. And so, I mean, a lot of therapy. And also just, I think sharing has been really helpful. And actually in the process of this, we had a full-size crochet cow made. And it's an Alan Partridge reference but we

worked with the charity Trevy House which is a domestic abuse charity and we had a lot of women come along who crocheted bits of the cow who also shared their experiences and some of them were more in the experience than others but it was really cathartic and there was something in this sort of crafting and talking that I thought was really beautiful. But I suppose you also to talk about things, you have to trust the people that are around you. Yeah. And I think that that's taken time as well, but have very lovely, patient

friends and family who have kind of enabled me because I would never have performed a few years ago. This is what I'm sure some people are thinking. Hang on. She says she's shy. She's on Woman's Hour. She's playing her music. She's getting on a stage. Well, you know, I think it's also I'm in my 40s now and I do think that age thing is I wouldn't have been able to do this in my 20s.

There's just no way. And I think I am coming into myself and I feel that. And the more I do, the more I push myself, the easier it gets. And I think it is just getting over. When you're in a relationship like that, you do end up feeling worthless. And that's how I felt for a long time. And I'm slowly realizing that's not the case. And I have things to give and say.

And it's been really nice to present something that's quite weird and odd and probably most my brain than anything else I've written. Yeah. Well, you talk about that. I mean, the power of friendship and also the power of being silly. Yeah, I think silliness is underrated. Yeah, I'm going to agree with you on that one. Much like you're saying about the dancing, just like dancing around and being silly and not worrying about what people think about you, I think is is so healing and just laughing.

I think it's so important. I was reading also your mum, Babs Horton, is going to perform at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe for the first time. She did it last year. Did she? We both had I was there with Limb Faces and she was there with her play in the Lady Garden for the first time at 71, which was incredible. And she's the most beautifully curious, funny person that I know.

And I feel like if I can, I like just watching her in the world, she's so interested in people and she's so jovial and it's such a lovely, infectious kind of way to be, I think. And then just watching her navigate the fringe it was great she had an absolute ball she loved it. Because she also had her first novel published at 50. So a wonderful great role model to have. Brilliant and I you know I don't think I would have done any of the things I'd done I started writing a little bit later even though it had been a burning desire for a long time but watching her carve that way through was really was just beautiful for me.

Well, best of luck with it. I know you've been traveling with it, but Lynn Faces is on at the New Deorama London from tomorrow until the 1st of March. Do you dance in your kitchen? I always yeah, I love dancing. I dance on my own often. I'll put headphones in or kind of just dance around the house. I love it. Well, lots of our listeners are as well so I'm going to

get into some of their stories but thank you so much Laura Horton for coming into chat with us here on Women's Hour. Right let's get to some of the dancing. Ginny says I'm 77 and I dance or jig about to music recorded from BBC2 holding one kilo dumbbells for 10 to 15 minutes five days a week and that gives me a great workout. I'm sure it does love to hear it. Jennifer, I work at Stansted Airport and yesterday I was encouraging passengers to dance to Madonna songs as they walk through the duty-free shop as I was spraying them with the latest perfume. It makes my day

more fun. Now if you see somebody spraying perfume and you're walking through Stansted, you know exactly who that is. One more. When I was younger, I used to love clubbing. But as I've got older and no longer drink, opportunities to dance are few and far between. In the last year, once a week, I attended a 45 minute dance class at the local gym. Learning dance moves and moving my body to the rhythm is a really mindful activity. year. Once a week I attend a 45 minute dance class at the local gym. Learning dance moves and moving my body to the rhythm is a really mindful activity. It's

also emboldened me to dance in the kitchen with my children. How lovely. Keep them coming 8484. I'm Sarah Trelevin and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every dou I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.

Four. Now, last night saw some of Hollywood's biggest stars take to the red carpet as the BAFTAs announced their winners. It was a glitzy ceremony in London. The award for best actress in a leading role was particularly full of big names. We had Demi Moore nominated for her role in The Substance, Cynthia Revo for Wicked, but maybe an unexpected moment when it was 25-year-old Mikey Madison

who went home with the prize. She was played a sex worker in the film, Anora. Mikey came into the Woman's Hour studio just a couple of weeks ago and Claire MacDonald asked her about the extensive research she did in preparing for the role. Well, I mean, the research is one of the most important things I did for the film. You know, she's a sex worker, she's a sex professional, and so I really needed to immerse myself as much as possible.

I went to clubs and I shadowed women, which was such an interesting experience. You really have to hustle doing that kind of work, especially working as a dancer at clubs in the US. You know, you most of the time have to pay a fee to work there, so I think a lot of women pay like maybe $200 to just enter the club. And then you have to work to make up that amount. And then you're also tipping the DJ, the bouncers, the security guards. It's physically demanding and emotionally demanding as well because you're walking up to someone, trying to connect with them, trying to read them and see, oh, what can I offer them?

What can they offer me? Like, how can we have a connection and both enjoy each other's company as much as possible? You learnt Russian? Yes, I did. How hard was that? Oh man, Russian is such a complicated language. I dedicated two months to really trying to cultivate my Russian language skills as much as possible.

And so I would fall asleep listening to 10 hours of Russian speaking and wake up and do my Duolingo and have my two hour Russian sessions. I understand you opted not to have an intimacy coordinator on the film and for people listening you don't know what they are. They are professionals who work with actors on intimate scenes to ensure they are performed respectfully and consensually. You didn't want one, why? I was asked before we started shooting if that was something that I would be interested in and you know at the time I had just created such a really close relationship with Sean and I just personally felt comfortable foregoing one personally and you know this was a decision made not just me, it's a decision made with my team, with the production, with the other actors

and I had a really positive experience on set. You know if I do a film in the future where there are intimate scenes and I feel like that's the best decision for for me and the production as a whole and I look forward to working with an intimacy coordinator. There's a lot of sex in the film as people might expect. How comfortable were you with all of that? I was very comfortable. First of all I'd never done anything like that before but I had done so much research. I felt like I was in tune with my sexuality in a way that I hadn't been before. I just, those scenes were fun to shoot.

And I also think that the way that Sean Baker, our director, was portraying a lot of those scenes, it was quite lighthearted and funny. And yeah, so it was a really positive experience, but I think also it's important for you to see my character at work because she's she's good at what she does. I felt really privileged that I was able to play a character like that. That was Mikey Madison speaking to Claire McDonald.

You can hear that interview in full on BBC Sounds. Just look for Women's Hour from the 3rd of February. Other interviews you might be interested in with BAFTA nominees, Marianne Jean-Baptiste from the 23rd of January this year, Demi Moore from the 25th of September 2024 and Saoirse Ronan, 18th of September 2024. Lots of dancing coming in. Here's one. Ava, I'm a professional belly dancer. I dance every day. Sometimes I play music and improvise. Other times I practice muscle control moves as I'm going about my day. Shimmying different muscles, isolating tiny moves, relaxing some muscles while working. I love it. 84844 if you love it too and you want to share what you're doing with your fellow listeners. Now

chicken chops, they can offer a quick bite on a lunch break, maybe a solution if you've been out and you need a speedy dinner on the way home. But there are some that are trying to be something other than a place to feed its customers. The charity, The Children's Society, is training staff at the Chain Chicken Cottage to spot signs of exploitation among its teenage customers. We have the head of national programmes at the Children's Society, Lisa Witherin and Georgian Bialog. He manages chicken cottage franchises across the country

and recently completed the training that the Children's Society is putting forward. Good to have you both with us. Lisa, let me just jump in. Why chicken shops? Why is the place? Why is this the place that's been picked by the Children's Society? Good morning, thank you for having me. Yes, so we're launching this really exciting partnership with Chicken Cottage, where we'll be training their staff across the country to spot signs of exploitation amongst children and young people,

or in Chicken Cottage's case, their customers. And by doing this, we'll be able to reach more children and young people with information about exploitation and our services in case they need help and support. We feel it's really important to reach children and young people where they are and if we know the spaces where children and young people are accessing then we want members of the public and chicken and cottage staff to know what the signs and symptoms of exploitation are and then crucially what they can do if they're worried about a young person. Okay, so what sort of exploitation are you talking about? So we're talking about child criminal exploitation here and what I'm talking about when we're

talking about children who are being criminally exploited is when predators are grooming children young people from all communities and that can begin as simply offering to buy them food or clothes to gain trust and friendship and then that might kind of turn into threats and violence to exploit them into crimes such as carrying drugs, money laundering or sexual or labour exploitation. And as you can imagine this is hugely traumatic for children, young people and has a really devastating impact on communities. So explain to us even a little bit further and perhaps bringing in the training as well, Lisa, in the sense of is it groomers that are in the chicken shop that you're thinking about or

explain to me exactly how you see it? So well, we know that groomers are in all places of our society unfortunately but really what we want to do via this training is to help chicken cottage staff identify the children and young people that may be at risk of this. So educating them about the signs that they might see in their customers, in children and young people and that might alert them that something's wrong. Like what? What might the sign or symptom be?

So for staff working in restaurants and fast food outlets that could be things like children and young people who have lots of cash on them. It could be that they feel a child or young person is under control or duress. They might notice that children, young people are spending a lot of time in the toilets and they might also notice that there's people that are spending a long time in the restaurant or the shop and have met lots of people in there. It could simply be that something just doesn't feel quite right and we'd encourage people to kind of trust that instinct. Let me bring in Georgian here. You have actually taken part in the training. What did you learn?

Good morning. Yeah, definitely I learned. In the training, it was very well organized, and it gave us brief about how to deal with the situation. So it was about how to observe an approach with a caution if we see a person which is in need. Also how to use our body language when we approach, observe if they are alone or they are with somebody,

how they, you know, if they're visiting the restaurant during the school time, this could be a flag. Also, if they are looking sleepy or tired, they are with someone older than them, it doesn't seem to be relative. And also if they seem to be far from home. So I think it's essential to raise the awareness about vulnerability of the children's because we work in a restaurant where a good percentage of our customers are children's and youths. So this will give us a unique position to notice if something is not quite right.

So you must also see this all the time even before training Georgian, that you're familiar with young people and their habits and what they're like. But I was thinking it is quite a responsibility, perhaps, for people working at one of your branches to be thinking about issues as deep and difficult as this. Definitely everyone should have a responsibility. You know at the Chicken Cottage we believe in power of community.

So it's all about giving back to the community and society. This partnership would allow us to support vulnerable young people and drive positive change, whatever is needed the most and whatever we operate as stores. I mean, what do you, I mean, do you think in the stores there is a place for conversation with the young people? I'd be curious what your experiences have been. Okay. Be honest.

I could give you an example in related with my past experience. Okay. I was working before as a restaurant general manager and this was, you know, in different location across UK and I would like to say that many area was quite difficult in terms of safety. For the staff? As an example, it was basically challenging this area because of the social unrest, I think. Can surely possibly have children who have been in case of abuse or this could be a result of their backgrounds, for example, maybe divorce in families or broken homes. So obviously when we experience these situations, we sometimes we have to be aware about that something is not right and we need to approach with caution. And in many cases was a case of antisocial behaviour.

And this was produced mainly by young people, mostly under 18. And if we have the training in place, we know how to tackle and support in these situations. And that's why I think it's crucial to have this partnership and to put training in place. So it's interesting, you talk about some kids there that are maybe going through something difficult, personal in their lives, or something instead that could be a more criminal type behaviour of something that is anti-social behaviour, obviously different situations there.

I mean, do you feel now that you'd be able to approach somebody? I believe so. So I believe that we can, you know, by putting this training in place from the children's societies is quite supportive and quite helpful. And it gives us the ability to understand how to approach someone and how we identify someone that actually needs the support. Lisa, let me turn back to you. I mean is it going to be offered like on a voluntary basis to staff or more mandatory? So yes staff have access to online training and the first licenses have been granted, so staff can now access that training. Only if they want though, is it just, it's not mandatory?

So this partnership with Chicken Cottage is really great because it will be available to all staff and obviously we'll be working with Chicken Cottage to identify who they feel is most, like who they sort of feel it's appropriate to prioritise that for. We would want to make it available to all staff and obviously if it can be made mandatory that's also really helpful from a from a safeguarding perspective. It will be e-learning so it can be really easily accessed at any any time which is obviously really convenient for the staff working in those outlets. Do you expect to roll it out further? We'd love to roll it out further so this training which we call Act on Exploitation is built for the hospitality sector in particular and really designed specifically with audiences in mind who

might not have had the kind of specialist knowledge and experience around working with children young people that we do. So yeah we're really keen to roll it out further. Do you have any measures on whether it works in a setting like that or other parts of hospitality? Yes absolutely so we rolled it out in other parts of hospitality with our other businesses and we hear really great feedback from people that have completed the training and that actually increases their confidence to respond in these kind of situations like the ones that Georgian described rather than kind of making them feel nervous or like it's an additional kind of responsibility that they have. Thank you both for speaking to us. Lisa Withering is

Head of National Programs at the Children's Society and Georgian Balog who is a Franchise Branch Manager at Chicken Cottage. Thanks to both of you. Lots of you still getting in touch about your dancing habits, Alison? Our local Tesco has great music and me and my partner often dance down the aisles and get others dancing too. Here's another. My partner and I were in our 50s, 60s, have made up dances for theme tunes from University Challenge, a Charleston type thing, to Midsummer Murders. That's a spooky swirly one. We jump off the sofa to do these dances every time we hear them. It amuses us anyway. 84844, let us stay with music.

And Nao is a Grammy and Mercury nominated singer. She has written for Ariana Grande. She's been a backup singer for Jarvis Cocker, but her unique brand of music has been called Wunky Funk. Her new album Jupiter is out this week and she's described it, described actually releasing an album as being similar to being pregnant.

Really exciting at the beginning, then it gets a bit tedious and then you're stuck in the process because you need to finish, get it out. How are you feeling, welcome, how are you feeling, Nao, with Jupiter on the way out, the planet of joy as you call it? I feel like I'm on the preface, I can't say the word, of giving birth right now, the final stages. But you're still smiling, you're not shouting or screaming. I know there's something good on the other end coming. So what can we expect? So I feel like you can expect,

honestly, just a joyful album. I kind of like tap into kind of the spiritual aspects of planets. And it's not that I'm actually, you know, an astrologer. No, not at all. But they have like meanings and I kind of like hold it onto that. I made an album called Saturn. I loved this. Now, do you tell me? Yes. So every that was in 2018, right? And the premise that people are at a crossroads every 27 to 29 years, moving into a different life stage. Yes.

I'm about to move into another one then if that's the case. Oh really? I'm thinking, yeah. So do you find that 27, 29? Absolutely, like 27 into your early 30s and also 60s and 90s. So like every 30 years there's this sort of concept that you have your Saturn returns which is kind of like, um, Saturn is the planet of lessons and it's quite like a bumpy transition. Usually people- But you've got to do it.

But you've got to do it. Yeah. And you know, when I was 27, I had a bumpy transition for sure. Like- What was it? What was happening? Well, I had a breakup, which was pretty tough. And then also I got this autoimmune condition called ME. Oh yes, indeed. It's a chronic fatigue syndrome. Exactly. Yeah. And also in that time I had a child. So it was like a really interesting seven year period. And I love this album, this spiritual aspect

of Jupiter because it's a planet of joy. It's a planet of hope. It's the planet of good fortune and wisdom. And I thought, you know what, I've been through Saturn and I love the idea of coming through everything that I've been through the last seven years and coming out with joy. But I'm wondering how you do that because you were, it was 2016, you were third place in the BBC's Sound Offoff which is just amazing, Dua Lipa I think was seventh just to put things in context and but I'm thinking from then you're having a child you're diagnosed like that's when people are pushing you to do things I would imagine like a million different engagements and

you're working with chronic fatigue syndrome. Yeah so I you know I didn't realize I had it at that time. I feel like we have a lot of autoimmune conditions, you know, it's very, the symptoms in the beginning are very subtle, you know, and then they just kind of like pile on top of each other. So probably by the time I got to 2019, that's when I really was like, oh no, something is, something's wrong here. And I got to the point where I was quite bedridden for a lot of that time. And it was, it's been a really tough journey trying to heal from that, as I'm sure a lot of people with autoimmune diseases can attest to.

But I'm about 90 per cent recovered. Great. I'm really glad to hear it. But, you know, we were talking last week about the word ambition and what success means, and you've thought about this, right? What does success mean? Yes I have. So what do you think where you at? Well I remember just sort of you know speaking to a therapist many years ago and talking about success and he just sort of changed my brain and thinking about it and you know I feel like the

American dream was sort of painted across everybody as we were growing up. So success was the house, the job, the car, the partner. And I just never remember, he made me think about what does it really, really mean for me. And so when I thought about it, I said, well, actually, I suppose, at that point, it was like, actually just having my health back. Because once I have that, I can do anything. And it's only when you get something taken away that you really realise how important it is like your health.

Yeah. And if I could get my health back, then I can do anything. And, and you are with Jupiter. And we're back. I'm going to get you to perform in just a minute. So sorry for throwing this question at you, but there was a line in 30 something, one of your songs, which you was a line in 30 something, one of your songs, which you're about to perform for us, which includes the lines. I love my baby daughter. Sometimes motherhood's whatever.

Yes. But I would like to say that after that line, go on, it says, but I swear I wouldn't change it for the soft life or the lions. Oh, the soft life. We keep hearing about the soft life. Yeah, the soft life. You know, soft the soft life. Yeah the soft life, you know soft life is when you know usually when you're child free, your time is your own, you can do whatever you want with it, kind of in a very simple way. But yeah you know I found motherhood really amazing at some points and also really difficult. Thank you so much for coming in, that is Nao bringing us joy this morning.

Her new album Jupiter is out this Friday the 21st. Andy Vickery was on guitar there. Quick one on the dancing. The best present I ever got as a parent going back to Nao was a disco light. Me and my kids put it on and have a dance party in our kitchen every Friday. I get to introduce them to my favorite music. The perfect way to end what can be difficult weeks. My friend that gave us the disco light did more for my experience of motherhood and my relationship with my kids

than she will ever know. I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Nicola Cochlan and for BBC Radio 4, this is History's Youngest Heroes. Rebellion, risk and the radical power of youth. She thought, right, I'll just do it. She thought about others rather than herself. 12 stories of extraordinary young people from across history. There's a real sense of urgency in them.

That resistance has to be mounted, it has to be mounted now. Subscribe to History's Young youngest heroes on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.