Woman's Hour - Naomi Alderman's new novel, Skye from Morcheeba, Access to hormonal coil

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

Naomi Alderman is an award-winning novelist, broadcaster, TV producer and videogames creator. Her latest novel The Strangers blends memoir and speculative fiction to explore grief, identity and our search for meaning when our lives are uprooted by events out of our control. Naomi joins Anita to discuss why stories can sometimes help us navigate loss more powerfully than facts, and whether the mysteries we cannot explain reveal something essential about what it means to be human.A Scottish nurse has told an employment tribunal she did not believe her union representative took her objections to sharing female changing rooms with a transgender colleague as seriously as she did. It's the second employment tribunal Sandie Peggie has brought over the dispute with Dr Beth Upton – a transgender woman who was born biologically male. And whilst employment tribunals seldom make headlines, this one is about gender-critical beliefs in the country that has been at the forefront of testing these beliefs in policy and law. Anita speaks to Lorna Gordon who is covering this story for BBC Scotland.Morcheeba emerged in the mid 1990s alongside groups like Massive Attack and Portishead, and became pioneers of the British trip-hop scene with hits including Rome Wasn't Built in a Day, The Sea, and Trigger Hippie. They are currently on an international tour, and upcoming dates include the Troxy as part of EFG London Jazz Festival on 13 November. Anita talks to singer Skye Edwards about her life and career, and she performs live with bandmate Ross Godfrey, from their album Escape The Chaos.Why are women waiting months, and sometimes more than a year, for a procedure that can take just minutes? The College of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare says access to hormonal coils has become a postcode lottery, with women seeking treatment for heavy periods, endometriosis and perimenopause facing long delays. It launches a campaign today called Why are Women Waiting? Nuala hears from Hattie Simpson, who waited nearly seven months for treatment, and Dr Zara Haider, President of the College.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Welcome to the Haunted Library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to Pulpy Penny Dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcast.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Naomi Alderman is the award-winning author behind the feminist sci-fi novel The Power, which won the Bailey's Women's Prize fiction in 2017. She'll be joining us to speak about her new book, The Strangers. It's about grief and strange new creatures appearing. and the main protagonist is called Naomi Alderman.

The hormonal coil and women's access to it. If you need it for contraception, it can happen quickly, but for any other reason, it can be quite a weight. We'll be asking why this is and hearing from someone about their experience, and if you have a story you'd like to share, then do get in touch. And Morceba are back on tour with a new album, and lead singer Sky will be here singing live from it. And of course, if you would like to comment on anything you hear in the program

or share your opinions and experiences, then we actively encourage it. Get in touch. There are many ways. On most smart speakers, you can say Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text us, it's 84844. You can email the program by going to our website,

and the WhatsApp number is 0,700-100-444. The text number, though, once again, 84844. But first, a Scottish nurse has told an employment tribunal she did not believe her union representative took her objections to sharing female changing rooms with a transgender colleague as seriously as she did. It's the second employment tribunal Sandy Peggy

has brought over the dispute with Dr Beth Upton, a transgender woman who was born biologically male. And whilst employment tribunals seldom make headlines, this one is about gender critical beliefs in the country. This has been at the forefront of testing these beliefs in policy and law. Lorna Gordon is covering this story for BBC Scotland and I spoke to her just before she headed to the tribunal this morning. I asked her to remind us why Sandy Peggy is a name we might recognise.

Sandy Peggy, a nurse of 30 years standing, became, in her own words, she said, a poster girl, that she feels like a poster girl, for the issue of sex-based rights in the workplace. There was a first tribunal against her health board. It was long. was frankly quite brutal at times. The background to that and indeed this current employment tribunal

was that Sandy Peggy was suspended from her job at a hospital in Kirkcordian Fife after she objected to sharing a changing room with Dr. Beth Upton, who is a transgender doctor, a male who identifies as a woman. The paths of the two crossed three times and the key incident was a disputed conversation in a changing room on Christmas Eve December three years ago. She was suspended. That was the basis of a first tribunal against the Health Board. And this tribunal at the moment

is also related to the events that took place and the support that she claims she did not get from her union at the time. So before we find out what happened in this, what's happening now in the second tribunal. What was the outcome of the first? Yeah, it was a long tribunal, prolonged. It was a long judgment and it was a partial victory for Miss Peggy. It was quite narrow, but they did find in favour of her saying that NHS Five had harassed Sandy Peggy. They dismissed her other complaints and she is appealing that tribunal finding and that is expected in first half of next year that appeal. So what's the second tribunal all about?

Yeah, that is about the way the union represented her throughout. There are three broad claims that are being looked at. There is this alleged failure to advise her after her suspension that she had a legal claim after she told them about Dr. Upton being in the female changing room. She says that the Royal College of Nursing, that is her union, refused her request for legal assistance in regards to the disciplinary investigation by her Health Board, Five Health Board. And she says that they failed to adequately represent and advocate for her when she sought assurances that changing facilities in the hospital where she worked would be single sex.

So those are the broad claims that she is making against her union. And of course, what we've, what we've seen so far is, you know, the evidence being presented to as she would say, back up her claim and the lawyer on the part of the RCN putting forward questions that they would say dispute her version of events. So what happened yesterday on day one? Yes, Sandy was the first. Sandy Peggy was the first witness in this tribunal, which is expected to last seven days. She said that her union failed to support her following her suspension. She said that her union representative appeared at one point to support a suggestion made by management that she be moved to a different department, something Miss Peggy opposed. She recalled an exchange with him during her evidence about her behaviour towards Dr. Upton.

Ms. Peggy said that she didn't believe Mr. Fraser her union rep was judgmental, but that she didn't think he had given her good advice or agreed with her that Dr. Upton should not have been using the changing room. The lawyer for the Royal College of Nursing put it to her that the first time she'd put it in writing that she was felt failed by the union was more than a year after she had been suspended. So she was the first witness. There are more to follow over the coming days, including other members of the RCN and other union members and of course RCN representatives. And what are the RCN saying? Well, the RCN has put out a statement. They have said they are an anti-discrimination organisation that they support and represent the rights of all their members and strive to ensure that all members experience discrimination-free workplaces. They say they are defending the tribunal and are not in a position to comment further.

But, Lorna, not every employment tribunal gets this amount of attention, does it? So how big a story is this in Scotland? I think it will build. Certainly there is this name recognition with Sandy Peggy. The first tribunal against the Health Board was very big, was very significant. There was considerable media interest in this first tribunal. The second one, you know, there is a challenge in following it because the tribunal building is small in Dundee.

It takes place in a very small room, a windle-law. small room in a very nondescript building and there are very limited number of seats there for people to watch the evidence in person. But what the Employment Tribunal Service does is they, you can apply for a link to watch it remotely and there has been considerable interest in in following the proceedings online. Not always easy, I have to say, if you have, you know, challenges, listening to remote, to the audio on remote links. But there is scope to listen to it remotely and a considerable number of people are doing that. And certainly, you know, the evidence is being followed and reported in the newspapers because this is a significant tribunal.

You know, Sandy Peggy said last year that she would not give up her fight. And this is both in terms of the Health Board and the other areas where she believes she has been let down. And this is believed to be the first time that a union has been taken to an employment tribunal by an individual who says that the union didn't represent her properly because of her gender critical beliefs. And who are we expecting to hear from next? Yeah, there are, you know, there are few witnesses expected still to come. Today we are expecting a couple of RCN members who are bringing their own claims against the RCN for gender critical. belief discrimination. We are also expecting, if time allows, Stephen O'Grady, who's the, who's from the free speech union. And then certainly, it is being reported that Bethany Hutchison, who's the

president of the Darling, Darlington Nursing Union and an RCN member, will later in this tribunal speak about her experience of how she sees, how she perceives she's been failed by the RCN in relation to single-sex spaces and another RCN member Jennifer Mellie who will speak about her experience of how she thinks she has been failed by the RCN as well. The RCN will bring its own witnesses after that, including union representatives. And then the two lawyers in this case, in this hearing, this tribunal hearing, will present their arguments about how they see the evidence presented supporting their arguments. Thank you to Lorna Gordon there.

84844, the text number. Now, a new campaign has launched today asking why some women wait months for a procedure that can be done in minutes. The College of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare says women are put on long waiting lists to get a hormonal coil fitted to treat symptoms like heavy menstrual bleeding

and endometriosis. However, if you want a coil for contraception, it can happen quite quickly. Hattie Simpson waited nearly seven months for treatment. She joins us along with Dr. Zara Haida, president of the college. Welcome to both of you. Dr. Hyder, Zara. Let's come to you first.

What kind of symptoms are we talking about here and how is the call used to treat them? So we are talking about heavy menstrual bleeding. We're talking about the pain and the bleeding that associated with endometriosis and adenomyosis. And there is so much evidence out. out there to show that the hormonal coil is a really effective treatment for this. So the Nice, so the National Institute for Clinical Healthcare Excellence,

it's the number one treatment for heavy menstrual bleeding. And Hattie, why did you decide to have it fitted? What was happening? So I had been having heavy menstrual bleeding and extreme amounts of pain since my first period when I was probably about 12 or 13 years old. I'd been through a very long process of being prescribed the combined pill, which it, for two years, which it later turned out, I never should have been prescribed in the first place,

but that was a whole separate story. I then tried to access the IUD because I was in so much pain and it was preventing me doing my university work and my job. And I was told that I would, it was recommended, it would be the easier fix for me to get the progesterone-only pill first.

So I did that for a few months and had horrible side effects and it didn't help anything. And at that point, I eventually started trying to push to get the IUD fitted. But then, as you say, I ended up waiting for almost seven months to get out sorted.

What were you told? Why wouldn't they give it to you? So I had various appointments, which was far too much bureaucracy, but effectively at one appointment, I was asked to prove that I couldn't be pregnant. And my only way of proving that was to explain the fact that I was in a same-sex relationship.

At another appointment, so it turns out at that one, it had been put on my record. I wasn't aware of that. I think it's still on there. At my following appointment, I was then told when trying to book an appointment to get it fitted,

that actually I wouldn't be able to get it fitted at all and that I'd have to be referred back to my GP so that my GP could then refer me to the local community gynecology service in order to get an IED fitted. Were you given an explanation? I was told that because I was in a same-sex relationship, I couldn't prove contraceptive need, which for me felt ridiculous. I was in pain. You know, the pain didn't change just because I happened to be dating a woman at the time. It was just that this like level of insane regulation meant that I wasn't able to access the care I desperately needed. So that sounds stressful. but also what was the pain that you were dealing with?

How was this affecting your day-to-day life? I mean, it meant I couldn't think clearly. I'd have to miss, you know, I would have loved to spend an extra hour in the library working on an essay and I couldn't because I needed to be at home, curled up in bed with a hot water bottle. You know, it really does have a significant impact on the way you live your life.

But I think also the sort of mentality around it as well. Like, during your period, you feel pretty rubbish. And it doesn't help when you're then in lots of pain and trying to navigate the system. And it was actually during the period, that I was waiting, or during the time of period, that I was waiting to get my coil fitted, that I had one of the most painful periods of my life, where I had to, like, drag myself across the floor to get medication because I was in so much pain.

And if I'd just had the IED fitted earlier, I mean, hopefully I wouldn't be in that situation. Why must women wait? This is the question your campaign is asking Zara, so why is it easy to get the coil for contraception, but not otherwise? Anita is a complete postcode lottery as to why. what women can achieve or not get. If Hattie had come to our service, there'd be no questions asked about whether she was eligible or not eligible.

She would have had that coil fitted. It's different services have different rules. There's various pots of money that have to be used for contraception, for guine causes. And the problem is it's the collaboration between the people that are controlling those pots of money is what's needed so that the money follows the patient, that if the patient needs a coil fitted for a gynecological reason, not contraception, it shouldn't matter.

They should still be able to access that coil. So what's happening? Can you explain why it's not as straightforward as that? Yeah, because the money is not flowing with the patient. So Hattie goes to a service and they say, yeah, absolutely you could have it for contraception. But because this is a gyne cause, the money comes from somewhere else. So therefore we can't do it for you. Now that's not consistent though, Anita, so it doesn't happen in every service.

Yeah, how can you override it? Yeah, so in my service, if you're 55 or over, I wouldn't be able to fit your coil because the money comes from somewhere else. But if you are in the same-sex relationship currently, you might still need it for contraception at another point in your life. So we could say, actually, we could justify fitting that coil, even though it's for heavy menstrual bleeding or for pain or endometriosis or, I don't know, my... What do you make of what?

Fatty was when... I feel awful for fatty. I think it's really, really sad that she had to wait and suffer. And we know that women... So our campaign, why must women wait? When we questioned our members, we know that women are travelling, great distances. They're paying privately, paying hundreds, 800 pounds, we heard one woman paid privately, just to get the treatment that she needed so that she wasn't suffering.

We're hearing that women are making unnecessary trips to A&E. A and E services are stretched beyond belief. So a woman having to wait, suffering, bleeding, in pain, having to go to A&E is an absolute travesty when she should get this coil fitted early. It's the number one treatment according to NICE. So it really should be easier to access. And I feel very sorry for women that are having such trouble. So you had to wait seven months. Yes.

And what happened in that time? Were you speaking, you were going to your GP, your healthcare specialist? and what you were being pushed from pillar to post. So what happened eventually? So I was being bounced around the system and eventually the local community gynaecology service managed to book me in an appointment. I was told that it would be in March of this year

and that if I wanted to, I could, if to have it done in March, I'd have to travel a little bit out of where I lived and go to university, but it'd be another three or four month wait if I wanted to do it a walk away or even a bus journey away. In the end, you know, as I think it's the obvious answer, I went for the one in March. And as a result,

I ended up travelling, I think, 40 minutes each way in an Uber that cost me almost 100 quid in total. I could have taken public transport, but it would have taken me over an hour and a half each way. And I will say having an IUD fitted is not exactly a comfortable experience. I don't think I would have liked to have been sat on a bus on the way home after quite an invasive medical procedure. So it really, and it took me out of action for days. But the amazing thing is that since it's been fitted, it's absolutely completely changed my quality of life and my experience with my periods. they're now something I don't think about because I'm not in pain. I'm just like living my life and it's brilliant.

I love it. And to think that that's what I could have had for seven months and even longer the fact that I got put on a medication I didn't want to be on because I was told it would be the easier option. You know, it's quite disappointing and quite upsetting really when you properly think about it that, you know, there was almost a year there that I could have had this brilliant experience. Yeah, well let's talk about that year and the cost.

I mean the actual costs, but beyond things. that. So I mean, you talked about the Ubers. How much time, energy and money do you think you've spent? Oh, I don't even want to think about the amount of energy in particular. So I also live a chronic migraine and navigating healthcare for that in itself is a massive problem. And having to now do, and having to then deal with this additional, you know, administrative burden, having to always be on top of emails and always been calling people and being told I'd have an appointment, but then having to chase it to make sure I knew it was going on. Like there were even basic things. Like, I'd get an email saying that I hadn't verified my appointment properly with the sexual health service.

I'd then turn up and they'd be like, oh, no, absolutely, that's just a mistaken email that goes out to everyone. It's all fine. It's just exhausting and it's so upsetting that it's often women who are most need of the support that are having to go through that experience. And obviously some women are paying for it, if they can. Did you ever consider going private? I considered it, but I've had experience with private healthcare through, like, neurology, and I know that the systems don't talk to each other. and already within the NHS there's not the communication between the different groups I was being bounced between,

whereas having to re-explain it every single time and justify the pain and use all the right words, quality of living, things like that. I knew that having to explain to another person would just, I just didn't have the energy at this point. I was on a waiting list, and at least I was on a list at that point. And you're obviously somebody who continues and is able to advocate for yourself to get what you needed eventually, even if it did take seven months. Just to pick up on some you mentioned earlier, Zara, why is it that women over 55 can't have the hormonal? So in my service, if we can say it's for contraception, then we can fit it. But from age 55, a woman doesn't need contraception anymore. So these women, so women age 55 might come to see me wanting to use a hormonal coil as part of HRT,

so for protecting the lining of the womb from the effects of estrogen. I can't fit it. So what do I do? I then have to refer her to gynecology. Gynecology have one of the longest waiting lists in the country. We know currently that there's 750,000 women waiting on a gyne waiting list in the UK. It's absolutely crackers. I could have fitted that coil.

I have capacity. We have the equipment. Often fitting calls for 55-year-old is slightly more tricky. Tissues are a little bit more fragile, so you need an expert to do it. We could do it. But no, I have to bounce her to a guinea waiting list where she will wait suffering with her perimenopausal symptoms, six months, nine months a year, which is totally unfair. Well, we contacted the NHS and the Department for Health and Social Care for a comment, and they said the DHCS, they told us their women's health strategy sets out how to make it easier for women to access contraception that's right for them and includes plans to help local NHS services create a single route for women to access non-urgent health care, saying they're determined. to improve things. The NHS also said it'll improve services and ensure equal access to treatment

by rolling out women's health hubs across the country for management of contraception and heavy menstrual bleeding. They will also improve staff training, ensuring women will get care based on their clinical need, not where they live. We've heard a lot about these women's health hubs, but they've been prioritised for years. Are they the solution? What do you know about them? Will they be everywhere? When will we get them? Yes, we want them on every street corner. I mean, there are some good examples of where women's health hubs have been established. The Tower Hamlets Women's Health Hub is a great example where you have a gynecologist,

a sexual reproductive health consultant and a GP, all working together, jointly triaging, so looking through all of the routine referrals that come through, and then allocating appropriately where a woman should go. should it be to the GP with advice and guidance, should it be to the sexual reproductive health consultants seen in the women's health hub, should it actually go to Guiney? And then what they've managed to do is reduce the Guine waiting list to one third. It's made a massive impact.

So that is proof that these women's health hubs could work. What would you want the Department of Health to do? You've got this campaign. Yeah. What would you like them to do? We need care to be. We need the people that hold the money to be collaborating together. It's working in Tower Hamlets.

It's working in Liverpool. In Liverpool, they have a single point of access for somebody who wants a coil fitted. They contact a central booking system. It doesn't matter what the indication for that coil is. It might be for contraception. It might be for a gynecology cause. But what will happen, they contact central booking system and then they will be allocated to whoever could fit it sooner.

or care closer to home. Part of the government's 10-year health plan is about moving from hospital to community. Patients would much rather, women would much rather have their coil fitted on their doorstep, not having to travel in an Uber. Yeah, 40 minutes for 40 minutes. This is what we need.

Yeah, what do each of you want women listening today to know if they're currently struggling to access treatment, Hattie? What would you say? It's so hard because I guess the only thing you sort of can say is that you just need to keep advocating for yourself. But it is one of those impossible things where it's at this point, the only real option that women have is you just have to keep pushing.

You have to learn the language that the medical professionals are listening for. Or in my case, I was even advised to say that I was bisexual or that, you know, I wasn't only having sex with women because that might just be a way of getting me the coil. So my GP afterwards who I spoke to, recommended I do that.

Friends and family who I spoke to said, you know, just stretched the truth. Me and my partner at the time joked about staging a breakup over the first, phone, you know, it is hard to say, but you do sort of have to keep advocating for yourself. How do women do that? You shouldn't have to do that. She should not have to do that. I mean, come on. I think it's really difficult. And a lot of women, Anita, to just give up. And that's the sad thing. You know, navigating these complex pathways, the most vulnerable

women are not going to be able to do that. They're not fighters like Hattie. And that's really, really sad. And also the idea that all women's health has to come back down to, you know, children and it's just... And it absolutely isn't. You know, it's about getting the right treatment for you at the time and the place that you need it. And, you know, Hattie's a great advocate for fighting for her cause, but also showing that this treatment is a really good treatment for her condition.

I'm going to read out a message that's just come in saying it might be difficult to have a coil inserted for hormonal purposes, but I had a ridiculous journey to get one removed. I had a marina placed during a hysteroscopy to investigate heavy periods. Five years later, trying to get HRT from my GP, he told me I had to have it removed, but they couldn't do it. I was sent to the local sexual health clinic who refused to remove it as it wasn't in place for family planning reasons. Back to the GP, who referred me to the local gynecology service,

but a letter said it would be at least a year before they could see me. At this stage, fairly desperate due to brutal menopause symptoms, I paid to go private, is what you were saying. The gynaecologist was shocked by the weight and also said I had also been given incorrect advice about having to have the coil removed. After starting my HRT, she did remove it a while later. It took less than five minutes. Hello. Yep. Right.

Keep your stories coming in. 84844. Thank you both. Thank you, Hattie Simpson and Dr. Zaira Haider, there. And yes, your messages, 84844 is the text number. With a subscription to the BBC website and app, You can now get early access to your favorite BBC podcasts. Listen to shows like You're Dead to Me, In Our Time, Good Bad Billionaire, and more.

Plus, there's all the other great benefits you get with a BBC subscription, from live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features. Visit BBC.com forward slash subscribe to find out more. Naomi Alderman is the award-winning author behind the feminist sci-fi novel The Power, which won the Bailey's Women's Prize for fiction in 2017. Her new book, The Strangers, is her most personal yet, blending memoir and speculative fiction. Its main character, also called Naomi Alderman,

chronicles how the world as she knows her is turned upside down by grief, just as mysterious creatures begin appearing across the globe. Naomi joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. Lovely to talk to you. It's such a delight to talk to you. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Who were the strangers? Well, in the novel, the strangers are these little creatures. They are called the mimoths. They are low to the ground, about the same size as a badger, flat-faced, long proboscis. They've come from nowhere, and now they are everywhere. Suddenly they are as common as foxes, and no one knows how they can. got here. Maybe, maybe the idea is that there are also other things that are strange to us and the state of being in grief is very, very strange. And so these two things somehow work together. But there are little strange, mysterious creatures all over the UK and then eventually all over

the world. Yes, I have to say, the country foul and woman's hour presenter intersection in this book was just, it was delightful. Right. It's part of... I've put them on country fire. I never thought I'm doing that. Well, we could make it happen yet. I'll take you up on it, actually.

It's part autobiographical, part fiction. So why did you want to include yourself or choose to do it this way? Yeah, I never intended to write it this way. A writing friend told me there's a particular species, as it were, of novel that people write when they never intended to write a book, but then somebody dies and the book just emerges. And that is exactly what happened. So my mother died in March of 2023, just as the TV show of The Power was launched.

Like she literally amazing timing. I was at the premiere in Lesser Square of the Power when my mother had her final massive stroke in the garden. And my dad very kindly didn't phone me to tell me until after I was out of the premiere and I went to the hospital in my full face of makeup, but I'd already changed into my leggings and t-shirt. So that was a very funny look for the hospital with my hair all done. And after that, I mean, my life felt very peculiar.

I lost the ability to both read and write for a while, which I think is normal. I think, you know, just, just, I think a lot of people will have experienced something like that after someone dies. And after a few months, I found that I could do a short story. Somebody commissioned me to write a short story. And with a commission, I could do it. And so I thought, well, maybe I can just commission myself. So I went and had a look through. I've got a big document on my computer of all the weird ideas I've ever had for something to write.

And this one that I had had sitting around for ages, what if a strange new animal? were to appear in the UK just absolutely cried out to me. And I thought, oh, I'll just do a little short story like that. And the longer I worked on it, the more it was clear it was not a short story. And that my mother had to be very present in that book. And my mother, she collapsed in her garden, which was the center of her life, really. It was, well, I think like many British people, the garden was incredibly important to her. She was an artist, an illustrator.

She was a very, she was a person who loved beauty in all different forms. And so writing about these strange animals appearing in her garden, I thought, okay. Yeah, perfect. This is a novel, but it's also a novel about mum. It's very loving. It's also very complicated, the relationship. And the narrator, I mean, you reflect on the influence of your mum throughout the year. So tell us more about that.

Yeah. Yeah. So look, my mum was the person who introduced me to science fiction. So in that sense, that is what the book is about. It's a science fiction book for my mum about the kind of science fiction that she liked. So she was the one who sat me down in front of Doctor Who and Blake Seven. She read me John Wyndham. She, I was, as listeners may not be surprised here, I was quite an early reader.

She taught me to read when I was three. And so it's very difficult to find books. that are inappropriate for a five or six year old who's reading at a quite high vocabulary level but could not possibly understand a book meant for teenagers. So she really, we were at the library, two or three times a week getting new books for me. She took me to the ballet.

She took me to the theatre. And she also took me to Sliming Club when I was six, which was, it's complicated. Which meant that you were reading very grown-on. things at the age of six. Yeah, I was. I was reading Slimming magazine was one of my early pieces of reading material. You know, it's kind of terrifying to listen to the piece you just had about women's health in the NHS. You know, my mum had a very traumatic birth with me. She was in labour for three days, followed by an emergency cesarean. They gave her too much anaesthetic. She was

then out for another three days. I hope that these days somebody would say, Mrs Alderman, you've got really severe postnatal depression, and that's because you're suffering from PTSD because of this very difficult birth. I hope so. It doesn't sound as if that necessarily would happen. But at the time, in the 70s, certainly didn't happen. And she became very early on, very fixated on, oh, what if my daughter is fat? And so, yes, we had a long series of battles through my childhood until, as a young woman, I was able to say, Mum, my body is my business, not your business. Stop now. And I think that was a real relief to her and a relief to me. But, you know, aren't relationships with mum's always really complicated?

Absolutely. But what's it like then writing the book and spending time reflecting on that and then the book being out there for everybody to read and... Yeah. I mean, I do... I worried before it was published that I was... I was, I said too much. Actually, look, I showed the whole book to my dad, and he felt very much that I should publish it and didn't want anything about my mum taken out. I think it's a book that is full of love for her. Yes. And it has been really nice in a way getting to know her by writing it.

You know, I'm someone who thinks by writing. And so writing about mum, I feel like I have come to understand her better. And also, writing the kind of science fiction book that she really, likes has explained to me why she liked it. Can we go back to the mimiths, the mysterious myths? And in the book they've become more widespread in the world. And some people begin to dislike these new creatures. Were you interested in exploring why society so often fears the unfamiliar?

Yes. We live in a very polarised world, don't we? Much more so than even a few years ago. I think in some ways it's the pandemic that did it to us. It stopped us from communicating with each other face to face. We all do all our meetings on Zoom now, which is terribly convenient, except that actually our animal bodies, which is part of what the book is about, want to see people and smell them and be able to reach out a hand and touch someone.

And you can do online up to a point, but actually you also need to be physically in each other's presence. And I think that that has eventually caused us to become more isolated, only interested in people who agree with us. and you can see it in. So people say to me, what's the mimids represent? And I go, I'm never going to say that. Never going to, never going to say that. But obviously there are people who say, oh, well, it's a bit like conversations about immigration.

It's a bit like conversations about trans people. It's a bit like conversations about AI. It's all of these things where you feel surely there are sensible, warm, loving conversations we can have, or we can be interested in both an understanding an issue in the round. And yet it turns into this vicious. angry. No, no, no. I've got my side and I'm right and you're always wrong and everybody who agrees with you is hateful. I am exhausted by it. I do not want any more attacking each other. I would love us to be able to, well, there's a concept in Judaism, which is an argument for the sake of

heaven, which means a conversation or an argument, a debate that you have to be able to get to understand one another better because the idea in Judaism is God being infinite. There is no such thing as one person whose whole brain has all of those good, true ideas in it. All of us have a part of the truth. We have to learn to understand one another and love one another better in order to get to the truth. There you go. There's a thing my mum taught me. In the book you quote Horace Walpole, the world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel. Is it better to be thinker or a feeler. Oh, well, apparently you have to try and be both. For years, I was mostly a thinker, very intellectual, put all my emotions into my, in through my intellect, just could be very, very

rationally interested in everything. But apparently, eventually that would drive you bananas. And what you also have to learn to do, in my case, through copious psychotherapy, is to learn to also feel your feelings as they come through your body and accept that your body and those emotions are also part of the way that you live a richful human life, which after all, surely, that's what we're all here for. I'm going to talk about your other work, Naomi, the power. Published in 2016,

imagines a world in which teenage girls develop a biological ability to generate powerful electrical shocks. It skews the balance of power between men and women. In the strangers, humanity is confronted by an understanding. known species. You like imagining how we could disrupt society as we know it, don't you? Yeah. I like imagining things being different. One of the things I say about the book is I think science fiction is a women's genre. Obviously, it began with Mary Shelley, writing Frankenstein, or you could go back further, Margaret Cavanish, writing The Blazing World. These are books about

imagining how the world could be different. And I've got nothing against spaceships and robots novel. But to me, what science fiction really does, is to be able to say, come on, let's be really radical. Come on. What if women also have brains? Can you imagine? Yeah. Well, if you look at even magazines from the 1910s,

when they imagine a parliament that has women in it, this is like hilarious and ridiculous. So let's imagine some things that are for us, hilarious and ridiculous, because maybe that will come true and that will be better. Has your understanding of women's power change since writing the power? Yeah, I mean, one thing that has obviously shocked and appalled me is that even writing a very, very popular novel about women being just as capable of doing terrible things as men

and also just as capable of doing brilliant things, that has not changed anything in the world. So, you know, that's a bit disheartening. But I think it has changed things in people's minds. And a lot of women have said to me that it has changed their ideas of what is possible in their life. I think we're living through quite a depressing time right now. We see various pushes towards moving women's rights back that we thought were already fully settled. So that is quite disturbing and upsetting. I feel like I want to say like Tony Ben, there is no final victory, just as there is no final defeat.

There's just the same battle to be fought over and over. So toughen up. Naomi Alderman, such a pleasure to speak to you. Enjoy. The book is called The Strangers. And you can hear Naomi in her series, Human Intelligence on Radio 4 and also in episodes of Start the Week. Thank you, Naomi.

Lots of food for thought there. 84844 is the text number. Now, our bodies are endlessly complex things, taking us through the highest and lowest points of life. Sometimes they contain both the problem and the cure. So we've been asking listeners, when has your body surprised you? Here is Yasmin's story about how,

recovery from a serious illness gave her a new lease of life. My body surprised me in two different ways. The first one was back in 2022 when I was 42 years old. I was suddenly rushed to the A&E and I had sepsis and septic shock. So I was put into an induced coma in intensive care for four days and then spent about a month in hospital recovering. Obviously, after something like that, I lost a huge amount of muscle and physical strength. Then just when I thought I was getting ready to leave the hospital, I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, which is a type of blood cancer.

So on top of everything I had already been through, I suddenly had all these drugs and chemotherapy. It was a very long journey, very difficult, and it was very strange seeing my body change so much in some. such a short period of time. And the second surprise was that around the time in 2023, when I found out that I was in remission, I was really keen to get my physical strength back. And I started simply with just walking my dog, walking with my children. And then the more I felt confident, the more I try to do,

but do it really slowly. And I started swimming, I went back to paddleboarding, I returned back to tennis playing as well, and I'm back to cycling too. And then I heard that that was our charity's bike ride that was going from London to Paris, 460 kilometers. I just signed up for it. I knew I could do it with a little bit of training. and I was very excited and nervous at the same time,

but I really trusted myself and I decided to sign up with it. And I just had to tell myself that it isn't a race. It's just something that I wanted to, of course, for the charity as well, but also on a personal level to prove that actually, it doesn't define me this cancer. You know, I can do more than that. And I met lots of people who've been through similar things like I did. And then I completed it for 460 kilometers.

I completed it. I had never done anything like this before in my life. So it was amazing. And that was my second surprise that my body surprised me. And I was so proud, so proud of myself. it just felt incredible because when I was back in the hospital bed, I was craving for the simplest things really, like walking my dog in the woods because we live in the countryside

and having a simple walk with my children. So it felt so unreal sometimes, you know, and when you go through something big like this in life and so unexpected, at a young age, it just gives you a different perspective to it. So you appreciate really small, really dull things, even, you know, simple stuff. And now I learned not to rush things, be in the present. And I do enjoy even the little things that people find dull or boring.

I do enjoy them, you know, I don't mind. I'm more patient now. and I don't try to make things perfect in terms of my look or my body or anything. To me, it's more important than it's healthy. I still vividly remember the first days when I was brave enough to go out to walk my dog, just him and me. And I was so scared to do that because I genuinely felt physically so weak, my legs. And I was worried that what if I think?

So it was only, sometimes it was only five minute walk. Sometimes it was 15. But gradually and really slowly, I try to make it every time a little bit, a little bit more and more. Because before, when I was first in the hospital, I felt betrayed by my body. But when I was backed on my feet again and feeling better, there were times when I was thanking my body, I know it sounds silly. But I was just saying to myself, thank you. Like, you're doing well. That was Yasmin, one of our listeners,

talking about her recovery from the rare blood cancer, multiple myeloma. And if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed, you can find links to advice and support on the BBC Action Line website. Now, Morchiba emerged in the mid-1990s alongside groups like Massive Attack and Portishead and became pioneers of the British Trip Hopi.

with hits, including Rome wasn't built in a day, The Sea and Trigger Hippie. Sky Edwards began her career in the band with the Godfrey Brothers, which released five albums with Sky as lead vocalist. They split in 2003, and she released two solo albums before reforming, and now she performs with Ross Godfrey. They're currently on an international tour, and will be at the Troxy as part of the EFG London Jazz Festival on the 13th of November. Sky and Ross are going to be performing live from their album, Escape the Chaos in just a moment. But first of all, I am joined by lead singer Sky. Hello.

Welcome. Hello, darling. Hello, darling. First of all, you look incredible. Can we discuss? Because obviously, we know the fashion is a huge part of... Massive. Massive, because you had a background before the music.

Yeah. It was fashion. I studied at the London College of Fashion, which is quite wild because, you know, You've probably heard that Maltcheva, we have a, I have an outfit in the VNA East, and Ross has his pedal steel guitar as part of the music is Black exhibition. And right next door to the VNA East is a new building, the London College of Fashion. So it's just, and the VNA East is on Carpenter's Road where my first flat was. So it's just like a whole full circle.

Hoetic. Isn't it? What's that word? Hoetic. I said poetic. I said poetic. I was like, okay. It's just me accent.

Just my accent. So can we just to describe to everybody who, we will be able to see it eventually because the clip will go out. But you are wearing a tartan beautiful dress with Diamantis on it and a matching pink hats. You made it yourself. I did make it myself. This is thanks to my good friend Selby. He's got a shop in Peter Cooter in Aberdeen. He runs a kilt and cafe shop.

And he every now and then just sends me three metres of. whatever and so it's usually this is i'm told it's the white stewart tartan um and i'm i have fear of cutting into fabric so i try to make outfits that i don't need to cut so this is like three meters just pleated together to make a dress how about that we should get you back tomorrow as well because we're going to be talking about fashion and what we can do with old clothes tomorrow but let's get more of your story sky let's go back a little bit to you growing up what kind of household did you grow up in and what was the music? Yeah, well, I grew up in East London.

I was a foster child of when I came to Mr and Mrs. Doris and Dennis Smith when I was six weeks old with my two older sisters and another little girl called Cheryl lived across the road. Radio one was always on. We was always listening to the radio. My mum also loved country music. I remember of buying a, well, my dad bought it for a, a vinyl called Friends, she brought it off the telly.

So songs like, I never promised you a rose garden and Ruby don't take your love to town, that kind of stuff. And when did you start singing? Well, I was always singing like, just when I was doing, I'm going to say Hoover, because it was a Hoover back then. I know that we call it a vacuum cleaner, but we had one of these round hovers that actually hovered. And I used to harmonise to the same. sound as the hoover.

But I was really quite a shy child, so I didn't really think that, you know, that I could really be a singer in a band. And then you met the Godfrey brothers at a party in Greenwich. That's right, yeah. What happened? Well, thanks to my best mate, Julie, that I met at the London College of Fashion. She got invited to a party in Greenwich, and she didn't know the fella very well that invited her.

So she told me to get there for 11. So, you know, being the good friend that I am, I got there for 11, and she didn't turn up until midnight. But there was these two really handsome men there. One was called Ross Godfrey. And the other one was called Justin. And they were just the only people there. And so I started speaking to Ross and found out he was a musician and tried to sell him my, because I was playing drums very badly at the time. And then I got the number of Justin.

And we started dating. And Justin told Ross that I could say. And then you got pregnant very quickly. Yeah. With your son. I know. Who is a drummer? He is a drummer.

But, you know, everything happens so quickly. Yeah, it was crazy. You got pregnant. Yeah. I mean, so we met in 94, the summer of 94. And then Jager, my son was born in November 95. And then the, Who Can You Trust? Our first Mochiba album came out April Fool's Day, 1996.

and that was our first gig at the jazz cafe as well. So what was that like? I mean, you're in the music industry, you're young, it's all happening, and you've got, and you're a mum? Yeah, exactly, yeah. Did you try and hide the pregnancy at first? We did, yeah. Well, we just didn't think that anyone would want to sign us,

you know, having a singer, a pregnant singer. So I do remember when I announced that I was pregnant for the second time, the record company guy, I won't mention his name, said, the last make sure that's the last one it's like how dare you so yeah I went on to have two more children I have yeah I'm a mother of four and I can't believe it I mean I'd never even babysat before I had Jaeger so what am I doing having a baby at 23 and then so how many years difference is there between your eldest and so my oldest son is 30 and I can't say that I had him when I was 10 anymore

Gilly is 18. He plays keys. And then I've got my daughter, my daughter, Kiki, who's 28, with her daughter, Mila. I don't use the word grandma. Why not? And then my youngest child is, my daughter is 11, so yeah. And your son is on tour, he plays drums with you? Yeah, so he used to play drums with us, but he went on to play with the gorillas. So he's done all right. He's doing all right. So you passed on the drumming.

Yeah. Yeah. I taught him everything he knows. So what's it like? I mean, it's been, I know whenever we do albums from great bands, especially, like, albums can really date you. Like, has it really been 30 years? I know.

It's crazy. What's it like being back on tour? It's lovely. I mean, we just have a lot of fun. You know, we're learning the power of no. So when we get asked, would you like to do a gig in Italy in August in 38 degree heat in the back of a split of an no

but most of the time we have been doing a lot of summer festivals and it's been really, really nice and the band split in 2003 you got back together in 2009

you're now performing with Ross how is it performing together yeah I love it I love him I love you you're on tour

with the album Escape the Chaos that's right tell us what you're going to perform for us so from that album we're going to play a song

called Far We Can Tell us about far we come. Far we come. So usually when Ross sends like the tune across, I start humming a melody. And within that melody, I heard the word melanin. And so I just thought, okay, I'm going to write a song about, you know, my childhood and growing up in the 70s, 80s in East London,

when the word wogs out used to be sprayed on the walls. I was terrified of anyone wearing skin tight jeans and boather boots and skinhead. And being told that we all look the same, like, you know, they all look the same, don't I? You know, so it's kind of about, yeah, the childhood wound. Just you're saying those words kind of made my hair stand on end. So Sky singing with Ross on acoustic guitar and this is far we come from Wachiba. Mochiba are currently on tour supporting their album Escape the Chaos with upcoming UK date scheduled for November 26

including at the Troxy as part of the EFG London Jazz Festival on Friday the 13th of November. That's it for me today. Tomorrow we'll be talking about a groundbreaking play examining race and sexism through a women's lens. 50 years after its Broadway debut, the production is finally getting its London run. And what can you do with old clothing?

if it isn't good enough condition for a charity shop. From worn out socks to knickers where the elastic has gone, author Laura DeBara, and Anna Turns will be here to help. So join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Zandi, happy anniversary.

What are you talking about? Have I missed something? Yes, Zandi, you have. We are over a year into making WhatsApp docs. You didn't even get me a card. Is it really over a year? It is. Think of all the episodes we've done.

How to Look After After After Our Foss. feet, our shoulders, our hips, our teeth. We've explored snoring, cholesterol, the immune system, endometriosis. All with the help of expert guests. I think it's fair to say we have plundered the world of health and well-being, equipping ourselves and our listeners, with the best information out there on how to look after our minds, our bodies, our souls even. And we're not stopping, aren't we, Chris? We're most certainly not, Sarn't. We have a lot of new topics coming up, from tinnitus to acne, crying, male fertility. We are holding steadfast. in our mission to sort facts from fiction, debunking wellness myths along the way,

and you can find all of our previous episodes of WhatsApp docs in the feed on BBC Sounds. And don't forget to subscribe on BBC Sounds and turn on the notifications so you don't miss any of these upcoming episodes. With a subscription to the BBC website and app, you can now get early access to your favorite BBC podcasts. Listen to shows like You're Dead to Me, In Our Time, Good Bad Billionaire, and more. Plus, there's all the other great benefits you get with a BBC subscription. From live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features,

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