Woman's Hour - Naomi Campbell, US Elections, Women Farmers and a 1970's recipe book

Episode Date: June 18, 2020

Naomi Campbell is an actress, an innovator, an icon, an activist, and a philanthropist who’s been at the summit of the fashion industry for over three decades. When Pat McGrath signed her up to be the global face of her makeup brand she said “she’s an inspiration to women, especially women of colour. She demonstrates that anything is possible”. Jenni talks to her about the collaboration, her reaction to the death of George Floyd and how the fashion and beauty industry needs to play its part in bringing about change.In just under five months’ time US voters will go to the polls. President Donald Trump and his Vice President Mike Pence are set to face Joe Biden whoever he picks as his running mate. Biden has already said he will pick a woman – and in the wake of the Black Lives Matter protests, following the death of George Floyd, there is much speculation about the possible Black women he might pick. So how might this impact on the presidential election? And what will shape the key messages of Democrats and Republicans to women voters as the impact of the Covid 19 pandemic continues? Pork in cyder, grilled grapefruit and cheese scones, fruit salad with gherkins …just some of the dishes Georgie Williams has cooked in the last year as she’s worked her way through an old recipe book. She found it after buying a second hand sideboard – 365 recipes written in a 1968 diary which she’d like to reunite with the person who wrote it. Georgie shares pictures and videos of these culinary treats on her @forgottendelights Instagram account.The Welsh Government’s Farming Connect scheme is running online events all this week aimed at giving women the confidence and knowledge they need to help develop both their personal and business skills. Research shows that women’s development in agriculture is vital to increasing the size of the skilled workforce, as well as unlocking talent to help drive the industry forward. So what practical steps can be taken to start breaking down the barriers faced by women and to inspire them to reach their full potential? Joyce Campbell is a hill farmer on 5,500 acres in the north coast of Sutherland, Scotland and was co-chair of the Women in Agriculture Taskforce for Scotland. Anna Truesdale is a dairy farmer in Northern Ireland and Telerie Fielden is a shepherdess managing Llyndy Isaf, a 600 acre upland hill farm owned by the National Trust in Snowdonia.Presenter Jenni Murray Producer Clare Walker

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Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday the 18th of June. Good morning. In five months, American voters will go to the polls to elect a president. As Donald Trump and Mike Pence face Joe Biden, who will be the Democrats' running mate? Biden says it will be a woman, but who might she be? The European Union and the Welsh government are running a Farming Connect scheme to inspire and motivate women in agriculture. How do women overcome the traditional barriers that face them as farmers? And some interesting recipes found in a book discovered it in a second-hand sideboard.

How did Georgie Williams enjoy pork in cider, grilled grapefruit and fruit salad with gherkins? Naomi Campbell is a model who's been at the top of the fashion industry for more than three decades. When the international makeup artist Pat McGrath signed her up to be the face of her beauty brand, she said of Naomi, she's an inspiration to women, especially women of colour. She demonstrates that anything is possible. Well, I spoke to Naomi yesterday from her home in LA about her career, racism, the impact of the death of George Floyd, and the part she and the fashion industry as a whole have to play in bringing about change. What does it mean to her as a black woman to be the global face of a brand created by another black woman? I'm very proud to be the face of Pat McGrath as her first contract girl. And also it's really wonderful

because Pat is like chosen family. We've grown together in the business. She really is an incredible artist at what she does, not just to make a party. She's a very nurturing person. And when I think back to when I started modeling in 86, trying to find makeup of color was very, very difficult. Very few shops that had it, very few counters, and it was limiting. So it was a big comfort to have pat and have her do her line it's you know that she knows skin and you can trust how did you manage then in the early days before you worked with pat to get the right kind of makeup for your color oh i had a lot of uh um I had my mother's makeup line that she

used to wear that my mother got me a color that was right kind of close enough for me but I got a lot of um I remember showing up to one job in Italy and the basically the makeup artist said to me oh we didn't know you were black. And he said he didn't have the foundation for me. And he therefore had to mix some colors that he had of foundations to try and make up my color. And that consisted of a lot of gray. And I remember when that cover came out, I just cried because it really for me was, I wanted so much to be on the cover of this publication. It was Italian Vogue actually,

but I didn't want to be grey. You know, I went through that for many, many years. I think Pat was one of really very few black makeup artists you've worked with throughout your career. I can count on one hand how many makeup artists I've worked with of colour in 34 years. So what difference did it make to your confidence in your look to have someone who just got it? Well, I'm not saying because i've worked with the most incredible makeup artist in the world and pat mcgrath is one of those makeup artists and i was lucky and blessed enough to be able to but what was great was i just could sit in the chair and close my eyes and get my makeup done and know that I was going to come out looking myself or looking like the right color skin or not having to worry at all.

Which, you know, it's based on trust, you know, and bonding with the other person. So I had that with Pat. I also had that with Francois and ours that both took the time to really look at my skin and say, okay, we're going to make a colour for you because they knew during the late 80s, early 90s, it was just impossible. How easy was it in your early days as you began to become a real success to travel around, to be accepted as a model? How much racism did you encounter? I encountered racism from school, which we all go through. But I dealt with it.

I was raised to be proud of the color of my skin. And I would not be bullied even in school and I mean the thing that I felt that I had to fight for was a lot of people in the beginning of my career wanted to make me look like try to put me in a maid's outfit tried to put me as like stereotype with dreadlocks and, you know, a hat. They wanted to make me, they were not all, not all, but there were some jobs that tried to dress me in this way. And that's where it came of me saying, no, I will not be dressed like this. I'm not a gimmick. And opening my mouth, then you get called difficult. So that's why I've never really bothered or to feel bothered why I was given a label because

I opened my mouth. Why should I accept that when I could see my white counterparts look glamorous and beautiful and gorgeous in the magazines. Why did I have to be like dressed in a stereotypical way? So I spoke up about it. I've never kept silent about it. Anna Wintour apologized last week for giving too little space to black people. I'm not commenting on what Anna Wintour said because I didn't get to read the whole letter. So I don't want to comment on what I don't know.

But I feel that in general, in the fashion industry, that we have not had the seat at the table that we deserved. It's not just a habit when there are hiccups and not just having us for diversity boards. We are capable of being across the board and should have that seat at the table. And that's the insult. How do you go about achieving that to make sure you have the seat at the table we have the same qualifications or sometimes even higher and overlooked because we didn't have the right connection or but that's what i mean it's not it's not equality and that's what has to happen in our business it has to be equal and it has to be equal pay too, which I've been talking about for a while. Have you still not got equal pay across the board?

It took me decades to get equal pay. It took me decades to get it. I'm not complaining. I'm just stating a fact. I mean, I'm going to be quite honest to see the girls out there working so hard, the professional models today. And then you get to see these Instagram girls who don't care about our business, who slam doing fashion shows, which fashion shows has bought and helped many girls by their mothers and themselves, their homes, then if you don't care about the business, then don't be in it because it's obviously your privilege in

another way. But this business, for those who are really true fashion models, they should be paid the same. It shouldn't have to be that they're paid separately because they have numbers of followers. It's ridiculous. It doesn't define who they are as a profession in their profession and how professional they are and how hard they work. I hope that all changes. What role does the professional fashion and beauty industry have, would you say, in bringing about change both here in the UK and in the US?

I mean, everybody is talking about racism since the death of George Floyd. What contribution can your industry make to really bringing about change? I feel it's, as I said just before, giving the seat, giving the same equal opportunities. Bethann and I started the Diversity Coalition together and we've done rounds in our business of speaking to designers. And yes, that did change and it got better. I've always said for many, many, many years, we are not a trend. I feel all that I'm seeing now and reading now, it's wonderful that everyone's finally speaking out. But as everyone will know, it's not new for me to say what I'm saying to you now. They've heard me say it before. I don't want to have been in this business for this long and have made it easier for the next generation.

That would really break my heart. I don't want them to have to struggle the way I struggled, even though I like the challenges I went through. I rose to them. They didn't squash me. They didn't silence me. So I'm to them. They didn't squash me. They didn't silence me. So I'm not complaining. I have to say that both you and Pat are now 50. You've been, both of you, in the business a long time.

What's the most important thing you would share from your long experience? Well, first of all, I'm 50. I'm sure you are. I've no complaints about it. And looks incredible but but my question is what would you share from your long experience within the industry with young up-and-coming models and makeup artists what do you want them to know i've always been supportive in taking and mentoring the young models. If they ever need anything and they will need to ask me, I'm always been very open to that. I want them to know they can come to me or Bethann whenever they need to.

If they can't speak, we'll speak for them. I've done so, will continue to do so. And in terms of makeup, it's the same. Pat McGrath, what I love about her is that she has embraced all the communities. And I've seen it when I would go to do some of her in-store signings with her. It's wonderful to see she's embraced the LGBTQ. She's embraced transgender. She's embraced. And they all love her,

and she's got such a strong following. And I love the makeup artists, the next generation that she mentors. You know, it just makes me happy to see them, because this is something for me that I never got to see. I know you appear on the catwalk sometimes with children of your friends. How do they respond to the great Naomi Campbell? They're so sweet.

That's funny, but they're sweet. Normally I don't tell people when I'm going to do a show. I mean, it's just me the way I am. So I like it to be kept quiet. And then I just appear and do my thing and I'm out. But backstage is so sweet because when I get off the catwalk and I come back around to join the lineup, I always come off and they're clapping like Kaya, Cindy's daughter,

and then my surrogate baby daughter a dute that I love and I call her my daughter and Adon Katusha's daughter and it's really it made me the first time it happened it was I kind of was very emotional about it because uh you know it's just like it's doing a 360 I worked with mothers, and then I get to walk with their daughters, and I'm just like, and I'm very honored to be walking with their daughters, honored that the designer thought that I could still do that. So it's a very happy feeling, emotional one, but blessed to be able to work with the next young generation didn't know that I would be able

to do that and that they're not too frightened to maybe not be quite as good as you why would you say the word frightened is just a catwalk is it not at all frightening, the catwalk? I think any type of appearance of live brings nerves for anyone. Everyone doesn't realize when I walk, I'm nervous. I try to use my nerves to get over my fear and doing what I need to do. But them frightened of me, no, they know me. As I said, they know they can approach me. It's not always in work. I see them outside of me, no, they know me. As I said, they know they can approach me. It's not always in work. I see them outside of work.

Are you telling me that you're still nervous when you're on the catwalk after all this time? I guess, correct. I do. And I feel the day that I don't feel nervous is the day that I will not be on the catwalk. I was talking to Naomi Campbell, and as she said, she's a member of the Diversity Coalition, a group founded by Bethann Hardison, a former model and casting agent who advocates equality in the modelling industry. Now, as you may be aware, having heard discussions this morning about John Bolton's book about President Trump

and the suggestion he appealed to the Chinese Premier for help in winning the election, it's only five months before the American electorate goes to the polls to decide who will be the next president. Well, President Trump and Vice President Pence will face the Democrats' Joe Biden, and an as yet unnamed vice presidential candidate. Joe Biden has made it clear that he intends to choose a woman,

and there's much speculation that in the current climate she may well be a black woman. Well, how might this choice affect the election, and what will shape the key messages of both parties to influence women voters? I'm joined by Sarah Elliott, chair of Republicans Overseas UK, and Inger Kemptrup, who chairs Democrats Abroad UK. Kamala Harris, I think, is probably the best known of the black women mentioned as possible running mates. Who are the women Biden might pick? There are a large number and some really capable and exciting people besides Kamala Harris, who is, of course, as you say, the most well known. There's also

Val Demings, who is a member of the House representative in Orlando. And before that, she was in the Orlando Police Department. We also have the mayor of Atlanta, Keisha Lance Bottoms, who was also on the city council. She has a real range of experience. Another person that's often mentioned is London Breed, who's mayor of San Francisco. And she's focused on addressing homelessness. She's also expanded public transit. And one thing I sort of think about is that, of course, Joe Biden was a vice president himself.

He had President Obama's back for eight years. And if anyone understands what a vice president can do to support a president and help him accomplish his or her goals than it certainly is Joseph Biden. Sarah, who is the female running mate Republicans would most fear? I would have to say Amy Klob election, missing it by 1.5%. And she would bring with her that Midwest vote, the support for the working class of the Midwest. And that's something that the Democrats have lost. And that's what tipped it for President Trump last time. How confident are you that one of these women could appeal to swing voters in the crucial states likely to decide the outcome?

Well, I think there's a bit of color, to have a black woman as vice president. Forty six percent of Democrats in a recent poll said to them it was important that Biden pick a candidate of color. And I think what we're looking at here are people who are not sort of Washington insiders entirely. We've got people who have served in all ranges. We have mayors of Atlanta. We also have in the picture, I should mention, Lori Lightfoot, who's mayor of Chicago, and a governor of New Mexico, Michelle Lujan Gusham. So there's a good cross-section of people that he's choosing from. Sarah, how worried are Republicans that they have no woman on the ticket? Well, I don't think that that so much matters to Republicans as really the, you know, who's qualified. And there's also, I should say, that there's a tremendous

pipeline of female candidates running for the U.S. House. We have the most female candidates applying for office than ever before. Also, 45 of these women have won their primaries so far, and there'll be more than that. And half of them are minorities as well. So the Republican Party is quite diverse, and we have wonderful female talent. I mean, it's just, you know, you could ask the question, you know, why isn't Kamala Harris of the Democrats the actual presidential nominee? And why is it a 78-year year old white man who's been in you know the senate for 50 years um it's just that's you know that's just how it kind of shook out this time but to say that the republicans do not have diversity or do not have female representation is just wrong

you know now how much do you reckon it matters to women voters whether they see a woman standing or not? Well, circling back on something that your other guest just said, women are the majority of voters in every presidential election since 1984, and 56% of them identify as Democrats or leaning Democratic. And they tend to vote Democratic, and certainly the trend in 2018 pointed toward that. And Trump has a serious problem with women voters. And I think it's likely to cost him the election.

The polls are showing a very large gap in women and their tendency to vote and what they voted in 2018 versus the way men voted. So I'm looking to that. Also, when they vote down ballot, they start to support women as well. There's some women who won some very narrow races, and I think a lot of that is the support of other women voters

in urban settings, in suburban settings, all across the country. And what would you say to Sarah's question? How come Kamala Harris didn't get the presidential vote and Joe Biden did? If you remember where we were earlier this year, there was a huge field of people who were running for office. This was Kamala Harris's first entry into this race. I think she ran a really excellent race, but there were a lot of people running and it was extremely competitive. But what we have in Joe Biden is someone who is calm, who is competent, who will

listen to science, and I think with someone like Kamala Harris supporting and working with him and drawing from her own constituency and her experience, we're looking for a pretty exciting ticket that I think Democrats and independent voters and some Republicans make no doubt about that. Sarah? We're going to be pretty keen to support. Sarah? Well, on the woman vote issue, it's really interesting that Hillary Clinton lost the

female vote and that Donald Trump won it in 2016. So even though they supposedly all, you know, vote Democratic, that did not happen when you actually had a female presidential nominee. that the Democrats need to put an African-American woman on the ticket when that to me shows that they maybe are feeling that they don't have the African-American vote with Joe Biden. I mean, he's most recently said some very racist things that if you ain't black, you're not, you know, you don't vote for me on radio. And he also has his criminal, the crime bill from the 1990s, which was very harsh on the African-American community, and he still defends it. He also still defends working with segregationists and KKK member Robert Byrd.

So I, you know, to me it sounds like they're actually kind of panicking over the African-American vote. And that is something that I think is being missed in the mainstream media right now. Donald Trump is very popular with the African-American vote. I'm not panicking at all, but I think I can tell you who is, and that is Trump. We have a lot more recent data about Trump and his racism and his misogyny. So I don't know. I mean, you can sort of talk about things that happened in the past, but we have a whole lot of data here up in the front of with Trump and how he has been dealing with women, how he

has been dealing with African Americans. His dog whistle to racists is pretty shocking, frankly. Sarah, I can hear you in the background trying to come in. Let me just put this question to you. We know that President Trump has faced a lot of criticism for misreading the mood on Black Lives Matter. How likely is that to harm the party's chances with black voters? I actually think Black Lives Matter is harming it for the black community. And I will say, I have never seen such enthusiasm from African-Americans for a Republican candidate in my entire life. This is what the mainstream media is missing out. They're not necessarily going for Republicans, but they are going for Donald Trump. He won 12% of the vote in 2016.

I think he could even get above 20% this time. Black Lives Matter has been, I understand people's initial support for it because, of course, George Floyd's death was an absolute injustice and tragedy, but they have now gone too far in the PC culture in threatening free speech and forcing people to apologize for things, you know, making corporations come out and support a Black Lives Matter, when actually they support a whole array of other issues that people are not aware about, like legalizing sex work, removing all restrictions on immigration. They also promote the destruction of the nuclear family. I mean, these are all issues that do not come out. But the American people are keeping their mouth shut because they do not want to

be called racist for coming out against this group, which has also promoted public shaming of officials, almost like a struggle session in a Mao's China to also looting and rioting. I'm sorry. Go on, Inge. Have you let Sarah, let Inge have her response to that briefly. Right. What I'm just going to say briefly is I think that your other guest has quite the wrong end of the stick. The American opinion is very strongly in favor of Black Lives Matter, which is a movement centered on combating and countering acts of violence. Eighty-two percent of Americans want to have chokeholds banned by police, for example.

The American people are on the side of reform. They are in support of the goals of what Black Lives Matter is trying to do. Not everywhere, but they know that something is wrong. And there, Inge Kemprup and Sarah Elliott, we will no doubt talk again in the next five months about this question. Thank you both very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now still to come in today's programme, the European and Welsh Farming Connect Scheme is inspiring and empowering women in agriculture. How do women break down traditional barriers that face them as farmers? And the serial, episode nine of the seventh test.

Now during the past year, Georgie Williams has cooked some recipes that will be familiar to those of us who lived through the 60s and early 70s. Pork in cider, grilled grapefruit and cheese scones, and the perhaps not so familiar fruit salad with gherkins. The recipes were from an old diary she found in a second-hand sideboard she'd bought in Crystal Palace in South London, and each page for every day of the year had a handwritten recipe. she found in a second-hand sideboard she'd bought in Crystal Palace in South London. And each page for every day of the year had a handwritten recipe. Georgie, what does the diary stroke recipe book look like? Hi. So it's basically like an old brown diary.

And on the front it says official Her Majesty's stationery. And then it says 1968 and this woman has basically written a recipe for every day of the year throughout that year. Why were you so intrigued by those recipes? Well I love to cook anyway and I just thought it would be a nice challenge to basically

work my way through the book recreating each recipe and also delving into what it might have been like to be a woman at that time compared to how it is cooking in 2019. How easy was it to find the right ingredients for recipes that were created quite a long time ago now? I mean, some of it's been a bit tricky there's certain ingredients such as um sort of glass a angelica which you can't buy in the shops anymore um but most of it's been fine i think it's just um the recipes are so different to what we what we eat these days so

how essentially different would you say they are um i say that uh compared to what we at the moment it's more aesthetically to make it look nice rather than how it tastes um but yeah so how enjoyable were the things you made and i have to ask you fruit salad with gherkins you know i did live through this period never heard of that i know some of it's a bit questionable but um what I do is not only just the recipes. I have an Instagram account called Forgotten Delights. And with each recipe, I delve into what was happening at the time. So how accessible the ingredients might have been or what was happening in the charts or politically at the time. So it's sort of creating a whole world around the book at the same time.

So why might she have put gherkins in a fruit salad? I don't know. Part of me thinks that maybe she might have been doing a cookery course. So it could have been for experimental purposes. but i don't know maybe it was just something of the time what clues have you got about who she might have been i mean we're assuming it's a woman it might have been a man of course it might have been a man but um there's a few clues that i've got that lead me to be i mean i could be wrong but she has a few magazine clippings that she's cut out and put into the diary and one of them being um what to cook to get a husband um or and like I said it could be wrong but um also she has scribbled a few names

and numbers on some of the pages um so I'm sort of looking into where those numbers were from and uh trying to do a bit of research on the names too so my goal is eventually to try and uh return the diary to its owner at some point if I can just just briefly before we finish what was the thing to cook to get a husband and do you reckon she got one um it was some sort of a pie and I hope she did if that's what she wanted. So you're hoping that this person will be listening to this programme, will think, oh my goodness, I left that diary in that old sideboard, I could get it back, yes? Should she get in touch with us if she hears this?

It wasn't actually in a sideboard. It was in a cabinet. It was in sort of the cupboard of one of the cabinets I bought. But, yeah, my goal is that hopefully she might listen to me or listen to this show. And all the pictures of the book are on my Instagram account, which is called Forgotten Delights, and maybe go to it and recognise it. And I would love to be able to return it to its owner because

she's obviously put so much time and effort and love into these recipes. And I just think it would be a lovely moment to be able to get it back to her. Well, Georgie Williams, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. And if you were that woman who lost your food diary do get in touch with us you can tweet us or you can send us an email now this week the european union and the welsh government are running a farming connect scheme aimed at women and with the intention of inspiring and empowering women in agriculture it's estimated that nearly 17% of farmers working in the UK are women. 15 years ago, it was less than 10%.

What practical steps can be taken to start breaking down the barriers to women who want to farm? Well, Joyce Campbell is one of the chairs of the Women in Agriculture Task Force for Scotland, Anna Truesdale farms in Northern Ireland, and Teleria Fielden is a shepherd in Snowdonia. Teleria, what's your background? You don't come from a farming family, do you?

No, I don't. Well, famously, my poor mum, when I was four years old, I told her when we were living in a cul-de-sac in a town in North Wales that I wanted to be a lady farmer, which probably came as a bit of a shock, but they've been incredibly supportive since then. But my granddad actually farmed. He sold the farm when I was about eight years old. So I did have some younger, positive experiences on a farm,

which I think a lot of people don't get. And it's just stuck really but but what about the the practical knowledge as an adult that you need to become a shepherd it's it's phenomenal it's um i've done quite a few different different jobs and and a few different careers in a way and farming is by far the most um challenging of of all of them um you know you are expected within a day to sort of be a midwife when you're lambing and then you're sort of a soil scientist and then you have to be an accountant and then it's um yeah it's not been a a simple uh career path to choose but um i've had a few amazing opportunities that I think have really sort of helped me break down those barriers.

I moved out to France and just volunteered on a farm out there when I was about 24 and it was a lady farmer running the farm and I think that was a real click moment for me because up until then, even though it was something that I always wanted to do, I suppose it didn't seem like a realistic option because I didn't have a farm I didn't have land I didn't have stock um so seeing someone seeing a female doing it and she was quite sort of tough on me but she believed in me and um she

farmed in a way that really sort of spoke to my values as well so then I came back to the UK and thought no I'm I going to do this I am going to farm and then obviously promptly discovered how horrifically expensive land is so then I got this opportunity which is where I am now on a National Trust and Wales Young Farmers Club scholarship so all of a sudden I went from yeah a landless wannabe to running a 600 acre upland hill farm and trying to be a shepherd. Now Anna you do have a background in farming what is your family background? Yep I come from a dairy and sheep farm in County Down over here obviously very lucky to have to have grown up and had that opportunity right from the start.

I actually did go to university and studied agricultural technology and it kind of came to looking for graduate jobs. And I was looking at jobs and thinking, I wonder, can I finish that job and get home in time for milking? So it was at that point that I was sort of thinking, right, well, maybe this is something I need to be doing full time. How many other women were with you at your agricultural college? I think when I went into first year there was about seven other women and then by the time I was graduating the first years coming in again I think that had gone to about 16 so there's definitely more people coming into it, you know, even in the last four or five years. Now, I think you have a brother, don't you?

Yes. Yeah. What discussions are going on about who's going to inherit the farm? I think it's always a difficult one to talk about in terms of discussions, obviously nobody ever wants to offend or annoy anybody. But I think realistically, if I put on my realistic hat going forward, there probably isn't room for all of us at home. So I think, you know, going forward, I will start to look at different opportunities as to where I can take my career or where I can farm. So what would the assumption be? Well, she's a farmer. She's really good. So what would the assumption be? Well she's a farmer she's really good so she should continue. I don't want you to upset your parents or your brother but just what generally would the assumption be? Yeah well I think traditionally and I'm not sure what it's like anywhere else

but definitely in Northern Ireland if there is if there's a daughter that is um maybe keen to farm yes that's okay keen to farm but you know eventually she'll maybe marry a farmer and I think what I'm trying to do online and with my social media is is make it that you you know the daughter doesn't have to base her life choices around whether or not she's going to find the farmer of her dreams later on um you know that she can actually stand on her own two feet and and run a farm in her own in her own right now joyce you're an established fell farmer how did you come to it i would have fallen and it would have fallen into my lap so i was at agricultural college a like anna i was the only woman on that course and my dad committed

suicide when I was 20 and I came home to farm because my mum was a teacher and just family circumstances so that's how I ended up farming here. And how did people treat you as a young female farmer? At a local level, at home, quite okay because it would be quite a strong area for women crofting and looking after land and probably husbands and partners going away to work. So quite acceptable at a local level. But when I went to maybe more formal settings and meetings, it was, yes, dear, we're hearing you, but who are you and what experience have you got? And you were more questioned then, I think. And what about now?

I mean, as one of the chairs of the Women in Agriculture Task Force, you're obviously out there and up front do people just go oh yeah she's just a farmer now i i would have taken the bull by the horns and i was getting frustrated that i was paying money towards like breed societies and paying quite a lot of money to be part of formal organisations, but feeling that I wasn't being represented or wasn't having my voice heard. So I used social media and I took my messaging straight to the consumer of our products

because I was frustrated with the establishment, I would call it. You know, in Scotland, the average farmer is 58 male and white. We need diversity brought into the game. And I definitely use social media and got told the story of our land and the way we farm there because I was getting tired of not being heard. So that's how I've tackled it. So I've probably been treated quite roughly at one or two meetings because I would not shut up sometimes and I will have decided that I'm not going to take no for an answer.

And if you want to do it, you need to drive it on. Now, Anna, I know you have an Instagram account with lots of followers. Why was it important to study the importance of online marketing? I think that going forward I mean as Joyce was saying the average age of the farmer in Scotland is 58 I think in Northern Ireland it is around that 58 or 59 but as this next generation comes in I think social media will be it's obviously vitally important now but I think going forward it will be even more important so as a way as the companies and as agricultural businesses and as farmers I think it is our responsibility to market our

products ourselves and I suppose the message is best when it comes from the horse's mouth as such and I think that if as farmers and as agricultural businesses if we don't fill that space online then other people who perhaps don't have a true representation of our industry they have the opportunity too so I think it's up to us to fill the space that we are afforded online. And Tulare I know you were helped by a rural leadership scheme course. How helpful was that? That was massive, yeah. Part of it was because it was sort of personal development.

It did make you hold your head a little bit higher as a, you know, like two of us have just said it, just a farmer. And I think also it connected me with a lot of other people. So I've sort of got unofficial mentors through it so people my own age that are farming um and so just someone to ask questions to and and sort of bounce off and and and obviously it's quite it can be quite a lonely job so having someone on the end of a you know whatsapp group or something so you can bounce ideas off has been has been massive when when your tenancy with the national trust comes to an end how are you going to finance your future in farming

um i will never be able to buy land it will um it will definitely be another tenancy um realistically it's going to be a case for me that I will keep working as well, but hopefully still within the industry, because I think contacts and the people around you are so important, and that's what I've really found here working at Lundy, just the farm over the road and support from National Trust. Having those people around you makes such a difference when you're starting out and you need that experience behind you.

I was talking to Larry Fielden and Anna Truesdale and Joyce Campbell. Muriel emailed us to say, I farm with my husband in Wiltshire and I'm fed up with being described as a farmer's wife. I am a farmer in my own right. I do not want to be defined by my husband's profession, but by my own. I was recently completing my daughter's student finance application, and I had to select my profession. The UCAS list includes farmer's wife as a profession,

but not farmer's husband. What does this say to young women considering farming as a career? Grr! And Anita said, And an email from Philip who said, Good news for women. From 1950 to 1975, my parents ran a dairy farm in the Midlands. They took turns to milk the cows. When mother did it, she did a better job.

How did we know? The cows gave more milk. Now do join me tomorrow when I'll be joined by the author Rachel Edwards. She was recommended by Bernadine Evaristo as a lockdown read for her debut novel. It's a dark, twisty, page-turning thriller called Darling. And then in early April we asked you to get involved with research into how lockdown is affecting the well-being of families and children. The team at Sussex University now has its first set of preliminary results, which focus on how the restrictions have changed the division of labour and childcare in the home.

The PhD researcher, Ali L Lacey will discuss their findings. So do join me tomorrow live if you can at three minutes past 10. Until then, bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig,

the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.