Woman's Hour - Naomi Parry, Breast reconstruction delays, Passport Bros

Episode Date: April 22, 2026

Naomi Parry, the costume designer who worked closely with Amy Winehouse to craft her iconic style, has this week been vindicated in a high court judgement. Amy Winehouse's father brought the case against Naomi, and another of Amy’s friends Catriona Gourlay, challenging their right to auction items that had belonged to the late singer. Naomi joins Nuala McGovern in the Woman’s Hour studio to tell us what Monday’s judgement means to her. Women have never walked on the Moon until now - at least not for real - but in the living rooms of East Belfast artist, Deby McKnight has made it her mission to get 100 women to take a moonwalk, recreating Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin's historic steps in 1969. Using nothing more than imagination, moon boots and a small piece of the moon itself. We hear from Deby and Aislinn Duffield, who has taken part in her project.At the height of the Covid pandemic, hundreds of women undergoing treatment for breast cancer had mastectomies without reconstruction - procedures that would usually happen at the same time, but were paused because they were considered non-essential. Many women were told they would be able to have reconstructive surgery once the restrictions lifted. But five years on, some are still waiting: living with pain and discomfort, and unable to move on with their lives. Joining Nuala are journalist Rosie Taylor, who has been speaking to the women affected, and Alison from Stockport.'Passport Bros' is the name given to Western men travelling to countries like Vietnam, searching for what they call "good women" who hold traditional values. A new edition of The Economist’s Weekend Intelligence Podcast has been exploring the phenomenon - what’s attracting these men to relationships abroad and what’s pushing them away from dating in the UK or USA. Reporter Carla Subirana explains more.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, in a moment, Naomi Parry, the close friend and stylist off the late singer Amy Winehouse. This week, Amy's father lost a high court claim against Naomi over sales of items that Amy once owned. Naomi will tell us what the long-awaited judgment means to her. We'll also hear about passport bros. They believe dating in Europe and the US is broken, so they've packed their bags and their passport. or to live somewhere where they believe their chances for romance improves.

But what does that mean for the women that they meet? We will discuss. Also six years on from the COVID pandemic, many women who underwent mastectomies for breast cancer are still awaiting breast reconstruction. We're going to hear about their experiences and also try and find out what is behind the delay. Now, some who are waiting speak about how their confidence and mental health has been affected. for those who have gone through reconstruction or are waiting, please do get in touch and tell me what reconstruction means to you. You can text the program.

That number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, the number is 0300-100-444. And of course, some women decide they do not want reconstruction. And I'd also like to hear from you on how you made that decision. again to text 84844. This hour I'm also looking forward to speaking to Debbie. She has recreated a moonwalk in her terraced Belfast home

and she's on a mission for 100 women to take steps where no woman had gone before. So that is all coming up. But let me begin with Naomi Parry, a stylist who worked with the singer Amy Winehouse to craft her iconic style. She was also her close friend. This week, Naomi was vindicated in a high court judgment.

the father of Amy Winehouse brought a case against Naomi and another of Amy's friends, Catriona Gurley, in 2023, challenging their right to auction items that had belonged to the late singer. All claims against both women were thrown out. The judge ruled that all of the items had been either gifted to the women by Amy or were already owned by them and throughout the suggestion that either woman had profited from the sale. The judgment said that Naomi Parry was not the type of person to deceive

Mr Winehouse or take advantage of him or the trust that he and the estate had placed in her. Sarah Clark, the KC, found that they had both Catriona and Naomi being devoted and trusted friends to Amy and that it was not plausible that they would have taken advantage of Amy or behaved in an underhand way towards her. Well, Naomi is here in the Woman's Hour studio to tell us what that judgment meant to her. Good morning. Morning. How does it feel to have that judgment finally out in the public? Oh, it is, it's such a relief. We weren't able to talk about it publicly,

and I was told categorically by my lawyers, that you must not talk about this because you don't want to be seen to be sort of manipulating the court of public opinion. It doesn't go in your favour. So I was so worried about it that I actually completely stopped using social media. And I've, it's,

dragged on and on and on and I've had it hanging over my head and it's affected every aspect of my life, particularly my career. So to finally have it out in the open is an enormous weight lifted. How did it affect your career? Well, it pretty much destroyed it. So this has been going on for four and a half years. And the issue was is that Mitch immediately... And I'll just mention Mitch that is Mitchell Winehouse, Amy Winehouse, his father. Yeah, Mitch Winehouse. He went to my clients and told them about the situation. And, you know, these are clients that I've had of 20 years.

It also just having somebody so close to you. I mean, then the paranoia sets in and you're like, well, you know, he's told these people, who else is he saying this to? and I was, you know, it's having the label of thief over your head, especially in my industry where I work with such high profile people, is incredibly detrimental and it really affected my mental health, how I felt. And within it, as it is often within legal wording, the word thief is not there,

but that's what you feel was implied. I should also say we have approached Mr. Winehouse for a response to the judgment, but we have not heard back yet. But this is the way it felt to you that your career changed. These accusations as well, as you mentioned, that were hanging over you. But the judge did describe you and Gatriona as devoted and trusted friends to Amy throughout her life. She said they both clearly did what they could to help. and support Amy through bad times.

You had your friendship, I suppose, put on trial in a way. There were photographs of the defendants with Amy, for example, in cards, notes, drawings. What was it like to have your relationship picked apart in that respect? Well, you know, it was horrible. It was, we had all of our, you know, text messages, etc. We had to hand over all of our text message. And so it was, you know, it was, it felt very vulnerable. And yeah, I mean, it was, I was effectively, the sort of subtext was that I had, you know, at best taken things from the estate and at worst taken things from my vulnerable friend.

I've worked so hard to enhance Amy's legacy and to try and correct the sort of negative narrative surrounding her. And I absolutely adored her. Mitch referred to us as like daughters and our friendship with Amy as like sisters. So to have that all picked apart in court was absolutely devastating. A key part of the claim, because some won't have been following this story at all, Naomi, He was focused on two auctions, one that was in 2021, which the Amy Winehouse estate and her father also took part in, and a later one in 2023.

You sold a collection of items that you owned, some that Amy had given you, some of which you had lent her to wear. There's a long list of items at the end of the judgment confirming your ownership, that was 59 in total. But to give people an idea, a leopard bustier, a lace robe, a pink lace bra, a mu-mug bag, you know, things that perhaps were familiar with Amy's style

and seeing her in some of these items but people might wonder or ask as a close friend why did you want to sell them? Yes. First of all, it wasn't a bra, the pink lace. It was like a band-down top. I didn't want to sell any of Amy's bras.

The reason why I wanted to sell everything was because I couldn't look after it. I couldn't afford to ensure it. I think people People sort of felt like, or some people understandably, would think, you know, why would, you know, these were gifts that were given to you. Why on earth would you want to sell anything like that? And, you know, a lot of the items were from my work. They were my archive of work.

There were only a few things that she actually gave to me as gifts. And they weren't like, oh, here is this item that I really cherish and I really want you to have and I want you to keep it. they were sort of had me downs. They were like, you know, I've got too many of these things. Do you want one? It was, and, you know, these things were sitting in a bag in my mum's house where I kept them because I was worried about them being with me because something had been stolen from my property that belonged to her.

So I kept them at my mums. She was changing mothballs constantly. They were in a bag for 10 years. And then her neighbour's house burnt down. and they lost everything. And it burnt down because of an electrical fault. And I was, you know, this is exactly the same house as my mum's. I was worried about it.

She was worried about it. I just felt like they needed to be looked after properly insured and also put on display. And I wanted to use them as a way to celebrate Amy. And I contacted Julian's auctions. I'd been talking to them for quite a long time. They'd asked me to sell them in 2016. I said I wasn't ready and that I wanted to do something with them to celebrate her.

And it was Julian's auctions that helped me really get that project off the ground. And so they are, I think, in different places now, museums. Yeah, Museum de la Mota in Chile. In Chile. Yeah, brought a lot of the stuff. Let's go back to a happy time when you first clapped eyes on Amy or she came over to you. Were there martinis involved? Yeah, I had just turned 19. We were really young. I was with a friend. She was with a friend. We were in a bar in Soho. And my friend decided that he liked the look of her friend. And we were trying to work out how on earth we could get his attention. So he just sent over two martinis.

Nice move. I know, smooth for a 19 year old, right? It's very smooth for a 19 year old. And they came bounding over and, and Amy was like, oh, we thought that you were giving us dirty looks and we were going to come over and say something. Did you know who she was? I had no idea. I think my friend did. I think he must have recognized her.

She's such a distinctive. Yeah, she didn't have, she didn't have that silhouette, obviously, at that time. She just had the, and she wasn't sort of a household name. No. So I had no idea who she was. She introduced herself as Amy. And then later on we went to Gay Bingo at the Raymond Review Bar, as it was called then. And I remember my friend saying to me, oh, it's Amy Winehouse.

And I was like, oh, that name really rings a bell. But her music really wasn't my sort of thing. That's not what I was listening to. So I wouldn't have known who she was. Yeah. And then she ended up getting quite drunk. And we all got thrown out of the club as a result. and me and her had a bit of a spat

and then she called the friend that she was with and asked him to call me to say that she was really sorry the next day, which I thought was lovely. She didn't know me. She didn't have to do that. She could have just got on with her life. And then we just became really firm friends after that. And you began working with her.

This was late 2006. She asked you to be her stylist. And she had the huge success of back to, Black. So, you know, this is a big role that you were taking off. What was your vision? What were you thinking about? How she should be portrayed, depicted. Because I think, you know, even all these years later, immediately anyone who was familiar with Amy Winehouse could tell you the sort of clothes she wore, the tattoos, the hair. Yeah. Well, I, it was more listening to her album. And I wanted to, her new album, Back to Black, I wanted to reflect that a little bit more.

her image. She, you know, I cannot take credit for her look in its entirety. She was very much the architect of her image. I just helped enhance it. And we both had ideas that we sort of brought together. And we both had references from all sorts of different things that we sort of smash together. But also, I came from a world of more editorial and working with sort of indie bands. I mean, no one that no one would know of, but it was just, I was just starting out.

That was your senior, so yeah. Yeah, so I brought a little bit more of the high fashion, you know, more luxury brands into her style and streamlined it a little bit. And then we sort of slowly developed it together. We started to work out what worked and what didn't. But it wasn't a, I had to have a completely different approach with her than I would. do with anyone else because she just, really she didn't, she did care, but she didn't care in the same way as a celebrity might usually, you know, it was very difficult to get. It's such a different era, actually, just as I think about it now with you, Naomi.

I mean, we're talking about 20 years ago and how much image or curation has evolved in that time, you know, you mentioned social media, but that was, she was in a totally different environment at that particular time. She died very suddenly, as many will remember, from alcohol poisoning in 2011. She had just embarked on what became her final tour. I believe you made all the dresses for that tour. That's incredibly sad.

I know, yeah. It was what was supposed to be, because those dresses were supposed to be a platform to start my own brand or our own brand and having Amy as the muse and it would all be kind of like built around the work that we'd done together so we were super excited about these and we discussed them in Brazil when Amy was doing quite well

and she was talking really positively about the future and so and they were these really bold bright colours that you know and we were doing this festival tour and so I really hoped that they were going to be the start of something new and we were going to start moving into more bespoke pieces for her. And it just all came crashing down after that show in Belgrade. And then the dresses then represented something that was so tragic and sad. So sad, so sad.

And you were all so young when this debt took place in the spotlight with paparazzi not able to get enough of it, to be quite frank. The judgment is over 200 pages long. And you could almost see parts of it as you read it as an endorsement of a friendship. This recognition in black and white, in, you know, legalese granted. But, you know, it details really your friendship, your deep friendship and what you were able to give to one another. How would you describe it in non-legalese? Our friendship, you mean?

Well, we were like sisters. We were, Catriona, Amy, myself and a couple of others. We were inseparable. We did everything together. And we were there for each other. And not just me for her, she was there for me as well. In what way? I mean, is there an example?

I was in a very, very difficult relationship. And I wanted to get out of it. And when I left, I went to her. And she was really struggling. the time and immediately she just dropped everything and just wanted to help me and she ended up putting me up in her house in Geoffrey's place and you know she'd do anything for anyone that she could she was very very supportive of her friend she was very protective over them and you know if ever I introduced her to a man that she wasn't or a boy a man that she wasn't so keen on she would

really let me know. She was, and she'd assess them. And she was the same with Catriona or any of her other friends. Yeah, we were just, you know, and we sort of told each other everything and picked each other up when we were down and just like normal female friendships, I think, when you're really young, are kind of all-encompassing. Very important. Yeah. And yeah, and, you know, she was, she was everything to me at the time. I want to thank you. Naomi for coming in to us this morning. Naomi Parry you've been listening to. She's been a stylist who works in fashion,

has worked with the singer Amy Winehouse, but also, as we've been hearing, also a very close friend. Thank you so much. Thank you. Lots of you're getting in touch. We're going to be speaking about reconstruction after breast cancer, mastectomies.

Thank you for your messages. Let me see. Ray, breast construction, I was almost 63. I had no partner to consider. So I decided that after, The op, a simple one, to leave well alone, so no reconstruction. That was 24 years ago.

No regrets, just thankful. Another from Kate. I started my breast cancer journey in 2005 and was diagnosed with a reoccurrence bilateral breast cancer in 2021. Over the years, I've talked to several women who had complications with reconstructions, and one woman in particular who was very happy with her decision to stay flat. So I've decided to ask for bilateral mastectomy without reconstruction. The surgeon took a lot of convincing. I think I had to be very firm.

It was the best decision for me. I haven't regretted it. So interesting there. The first couple coming in are about not having reconstruction. Do keep them coming 84844. I'd love to hear your thoughts and your stories. But now I want to move on to something that could be considered a tribute to the power of imagination. Women had never walked on the moon until now.

Well, they're happening to be walking in the living rooms of East Belfast, one particular living room. The artist Debbie McNight has made it her mission to get 100 women to take a moonwalk, I'm putting that in inverted commas, recreating Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin's historic steps in 1969. She's using her imagination, but also some moon boots and a small piece of the moon itself. I need to find out where she got that. Debbie is joining me now along with Ashleyne Duffield, a participant in the project. Good to have both of you this morning. Good morning, Debbie. Good morning, Ashling. Hello.

So, Debbie, we need to start off by describing what it is you have created in your terraced house, I believe, in East Belfast. Well, there's a very famous photograph taken by Neil Armstrong during the Apollo missions of Buzz Aldrin, coming down the ladders. He's about to step his foot onto the moon. And I love that photograph. and I happened to come into a piece of the moon as one does. And I had this piece of the moon in my hand. And I thought, my goodness, this is amazing having this piece of the moon. But women have never walked on the moon. And I've done so much DIY in my living room in the past year doing up my house.

And I thought, those step ladders, that photograph, this piece of the moon, there's got to be a way of putting this together so that women can walk on the moon in my living room. Okay, where did you get the moon rock? Well, I got it through a museum curator who put me in touch with someone who deals in meteorites. And it has been authenticated, verified. It's the same mineral composition as pieces of the moon that have been brought back from the Apollo missions. So it is from, I think the south of the south pole of the moon somewhere around there. Just so we get geographical location, correct?

Now, describe what it looks like. And then I'll come to you, Ashley, and to hear what it feels like. Debbie. The piece of the moon or the activity? No, the whole, your living room now. Well, I painted the walls green, really dark, mossy green. I wanted to sit in like a big green cave with a light over my head reading.

So I thought the color of the walls lends itself to the night sky almost. most. And so at the back of my living room, I have blacked out the curtains at the back, I've blacked out the bookshelf. I have a gigantic step ladder that has been covered with, you know, the gold foil that they would give to marathon runners? Yes, I do. Well, basically, my moon lander is my step ladder wrapped up with the gold foil, with some bits added to it. And it's just at the right angle. It's at the same angle as the Buzz Aldrin photograph. So women will come in. I've made them space suits, of course. Of course you have.

Yes, of course. I hear you had a niece help you with that. I did. My niece, yeah, my niece, Jane McKnight. She's really crafty and very, very into making things and props for activities and things. So she made me, I've got a pair of several pairs of crock shoes. So she made me moon boots that are replicas of the ones that Buzz Aldrum wore. She helped me put suits together. She helped me with the backpacks so that you can.

can breathe, the tubing, the buttons, the whole works. Okay. You are creating this alternate universe. I love it. Okay, Ashleyne. How did you, are you a friend of Debbie's? How did you hear about it? What was it like?

Tell me all. It was not what I was expecting. It was so much better. A good friend of mine is a good friend of Debbie's. And she knows I like doing quirky and interesting things. So she said, do you fancy? walking on the moon and I said oh why not but I doesn't have any idea of what I was letting myself in for at all and I imagine because my friend said that there was the aim for a hundred women to walk on the moon so I had this

notion that maybe there would be like a disc on the floor and we would all stand on and clap and go the moon I had no notion that I would be coming in through the door and then suddenly whoa here we all are and I was going to be wearing a suit and climbing and putting this healthy on, it was absolutely fabulous. And I just think, where does Debbie get these ideas from? It was extraordinary, extraordinary. Where did you? That's a good question though, Ashton. Where did the idea come from? Just the moon rock? Was that the catalyst? I think it was. Having the moon rock in my hand and then just thinking of the bigger picture, you know, women have been excluded from so much for so long. This is 2026. And even, you know, the Artemis 2 mission, fantastic success.

it just orbited the moon. Yes. We don't know if there's going to be a woman who's part of that mission to go and land on the moon with NASA. We don't know if the Chinese have a woman as part of their crew. So we still don't know when a woman is going to land on the moon. And I just thought I have the opportunity here to somehow, somehow recreate something to show what we can do and what we really should be doing. So how many women have done the moonwalk so far approximately?

So far, 45 women so far. Okay, 55 still to go. I saw a lovely lady, Betty, who celebrated her 90th birthday by going on a moonwalk. Tell me a little bit about her. She did. I was having a night off and I thought, I'll go in and say hello to my neighbour. So I went around and knocked on the door. I didn't know it was her 90th birthday.

So knocked on, she said, oh, I'm tired of having out all day. I'm doing things with family and friends. It's my 90th. I said, Betty, come in next door and see what I'm doing in here. put this suit on hold yourself up onto this stick your leg out till I put this moon rock on your foot and take a picture for you

and she looks fabulous I do want to let people know because I'm sure you know the best pictures are on the radio we all know but if they want to see some of your moonwalk and your living room and all of it together and maybe a little of Betty or Ashleyne too

there are photographs on our Instagram stories at BBC Women's Hour which I'm delighted we're going to be able to share with our listeners. But I'm wondering, have you done it, Debbie? I mean, are you one of the 45? No. Why not?

I was the test pilot. Okay. I haven't done it. I'll do it at some point. I just hadn't prioritised. Maybe you should be the 100th. No, no, no. That has to be my niece, Jane.

She puts so much work into this. She is the 100th. I've got my stepmother, Joan McKnight. She was the first, first woman on the moon, and my niece will be the last woman on the moon, just for this. I mean, if somebody wants to take part, I have a feeling there'd be a lot of women, our listeners, that would love this,

prepare to make a trip to Belfast. I would love to have loads and loads and loads of women doing it. But because it's in my home, it's in my actual living room, in my house where I live, I can only have women doing it who either I know personally or they know someone who knows me. I understand. It's an elite club, but I guess that's, I guess it always is for anybody who manages to get to the moon, right?

You always find your own and set up your own ladders and absolutely. Maybe you've started a whole thing. I hope so. Anything else that you have, because I'm feeling you've a very creative brain. Is there anything else you're thinking about? Yeah, I'm working on a couple of projects. My next one will involve a Yoko Ono Cyclops Army. Of course.

The one after that will be two giant sausage roll portals in a pool of HP sauce. Those are the two next projects. I don't know whether I'm doing them in my living room or whether they're just going to be in my sketchbook or whatever. But those are the next things. I'll be keeping an eye out. No pun intended with the Cyclops. Debbie McNight has been lovely to speak to you, the artist Debbie McNight. And one of the women who walked on the moon.

Ashleyne Duffield. Thanks so much to both of you. Thanks also to all of you getting in touch on reconstruction. Let me see. Quite a few coming in here. In 2016, I was told I could not have both breasts removed when facing a mastectomy for cancer. I found being lopsided really difficult. I was on the waiting list for reconstruction but gained too much weight.

Because BMI can be a big issue when it comes to being accepted for the surgery. was very unsure about reconstruction because of the huge surgery and long recovery, lost weight, but found flat friends UK on Facebook that gave me the courage to go flat. I was granted my wish in 2020. So happy to be symmetrical and I don't bother with the prosthesis at all. So says Mary, so interesting. So many of you getting in touch with that particular path that you have taken. 8444-844 if you would like to get in touch.

And the reason I'm taking those messages today is because at the height of the COVID pandemic hundreds of women that were undergoing treatment for breast cancer, had mastectomies, but without reconstruction. Often those procedures would happen at the same time. But they were paused at that time because they were considered non-essential.

Many women were told they'd be able to have reconstructive surgery once the restrictions lifted. But we are now six years on and some are still waiting, some living with pain and discomfort, others unable to move on with their lives I mentioned the lack of confidence and mental health issues as well. The journalist Rosie Taylor has been speaking to many women affected.

That includes Alison, who's from Stockport. They both join me now. Good morning to both of you. Thank you very much effort joining us. Rosie, perhaps you could expand a little on what you found. Yeah, hi, Neela. Good morning. So this is a story about women who went through breast cancer treatment and had mastectomies during 2020 and 21 in lockdown.

And essentially they have been abandoned by the system ever since. So when you have a mastectomy, you can choose to have no replacement, as a lot of the people who've been contacting the show today have been discussing. You can choose to have implants, or you can choose a reconstruction made using tissues from elsewhere in your body, and that's normally from the abdomen. And, you know, before lockdown, the normal state of affairs is that if you choose an own tissue reconstruction, then you would normally be advised to have that at the same time as your mastectomy unless there was a medical reason that you couldn't be that. And these reconstructions

are very intense surgeries. It's eight to ten hours. It's a whole day in theatre. So it's a big operation. And obviously women who want these reconstructors are cancer patients, so it's not suitable for everyone. But most people want to have that immediate reconstruction because it reduces the number of surgeries they have and their infection risk and recovery time and all of that. But obviously during lockdown, although mastectomies that were life-saving were considered essential, reconstructions weren't. And these women who wanted to have reconstructions were told not to worry, you know, you will get that delayed reconstruction later on once lockdown is over.

But the problem is that this massive backlog built up during lockdown. And the situation now is that current cancer patients who are newly diagnosed with, cancer are obviously, you know, being rightly prioritised to have mastectomies and having those reconstructions. And as a result, there's just not really very much that has been done about this backlog of hundreds, we think possibly thousands of women who are waiting for reconstructions and who have been basically having to put their lives on hold ever since. Well, let us bring in Alison at this point. Alison, thanks for joining us. You know, Rosie talks about life put on hold in a way. Tell me a little bit about how it has felt for you to have to wait.

Hello. It's not being the best of journeys. I've had other things that have happened during my waiting time. Had I had the immediate reconstruction during the time that I had them set to me, that would be behind six years. It wouldn't be something I was dealing with today. Moving forward, it's still a massive piece. part of my everyday living is living.

Can you tell me a little bit about how it affects you on a day-to-day level? From getting up out of bed. Really? Yeah, you, if people were to stay over or if you're on holiday or you always have to make sure your bras on with your boobinette, you always have to make sure that you're covered up, just going. out to into different social situations, certain clothes that you would like to wear, you can't wear, just going to work, my job, I go to work and I have to go through security measures to

access my place of work. Just knowing today may be another day that I've got to say to somebody it's highlighted and yes, I've got a prosthesis and hot days. Yeah, sure, because my understanding as well it can be uncomfortable to wear. It's uncomfortable. It can get really warm. Just finding the correct bra that fits, a comfortable a nice bra, just everything. It really does impact your daily life.

And I know you were bereaved in the past years as well. Your husband, I'm very sorry for your loss, but you have gone through a lot I feel in these years. I understand as well at one point your weight was to heavy as well for the surgery which also delayed you which I can imagine just going through this

very difficult time it was like one more cut so to speak but have you been given a reason away from extra weight on of why the delay is there just to think as Josie says it's an impact from COVID the list

and rightfully that you know newly diagnosed people ladies and men they need the surgery and which is basically put down the list and that's the only reason I've been told and of course I think at my particularly at my hospital I think some surgeons have been away

for months at a time which then moves their list to the list and that is a key point though I think you bring up there Alison and let me come back to you Rosie that issue of having enough surgeons and having enough theatre space yeah it's a massive issue some of the trusts that I've been speaking to

who've responded to my investigation on this say there's a national shortage of specialist surgeons but I would also say that it is very trust dependent and ultimately depends on how much trust leaders actually care about clearing the backlog and care about the wellbeing of the women waiting on the list because there are places so at Guy's in St. Thomas in London

they really put a lot of resources into trying to clear the list and they did a kind of, I guess the kind of hit list where they cleared kind of three months worth of patients in five days by dedicating resources for doing it. That's incredible. Yeah, it's amazing. So it shows it can be done. Whereas other trusts, you know, I've been dealing a lot with Sheffield and there about like nearly half of patients who had had mastectomy and are waiting for delayed reconstruction.

I've been waiting more than three years, which is just, I think it's unacceptable really. I understand with you, Alison, there was another complication, so to speak, that you had been incorrectly referred to a skin cancer clinic in the sense of also your track to being seen or for the reconstruction was delayed yet again. Yeah, I saw my team at the Nightingale and was put on the waiting list. to be seen by the plastic surgeon. And it just kind of, it said that it was an urgent referral. And I think it was after six to eight weeks, I thought,

I'll just chase this up. And went around. They said, oh, yes, we've got an appointment. We're going to send it out to you. We're very sorry. But then I had another phone call, and they said, oh, unfortunately, we actually referred you to a skin cancer clinic. And obviously, that wasn't going to be.

So they had to start the cycle again. And ultimately, it was June then that I was seen. by the plastic surgeon team. I want to read out some of the messages that are coming in. Obviously, a lot of people that are going through this with various experiences. One is I have had a preventative double mastectomy straight to implants. I lead an act of life and didn't heed the warnings and ended up lambing a sheep. Oh dear.

And ruptured my wound. I lost the implants and now have expanders with a view to new implants in several months. It's a very serious operation and the need for massive support afterwards is woefully misunderstood. I only hope my next implants are a success. So says Kate, I hope so too. Another, I had a mastectomy at 38. I knew I would not cope waking up to nothing, so I had an immediate reconstruction.

I knew the risk of it hardening with radiotherapy, which it did, so I had to have it renewed. I've never regretted my decision, though. I'm now 62. One more. I had breast cancer in 1997. My amazing consultant gave me a choice of mastectomy or mastectomy with Latimus Dorsey reconstruction,

all in one up. I chose the latter and I've always been glad. My thoughts were that if you look normal, you'll feel more normal. I'm not embarrassed to go topless on the beach. The implant is still okay. I was lucky. I was in Surrey. A friend in Norfolk wasn't offered the same choice.

So, Alison, I don't know if those messages make you feel less alone. Yeah, yeah, they definitely do. I mean, I have to say, you know, the actual teams that I have met up with, the plastics, my consultant, Ben Baker, they've all been a very. amazing. It's just the waiting list. You know, it's, I feel like me once I get there. Yeah. So, and I believe you do have a date now, correct? Is it? No, I don't have to say. I've had a phone call to say that it would probably be September. Okay. I don't say. I don't, I don't, I don't actually, my life's on hold. From June onwards, I can't book anything. I'm life's on hold till

Yeah, God, that's difficult, isn't it? It's a sort of limbo. What do you think it will mean? And I'm going to say when. I'm going to be optimistic here when you have the surgery. I'm obviously apprehensive because as Rosie said, it's quite a big surgery. It's going to impact me a lot, the recovery. I've got lots to think about.

I'm 63. As you say, my husband passed away. He was a massive part of the last recovery. it's navigating how I'm going to go move forward but it's something that I definitely want I've had a long time to think about it and it's something that I definitely want to go forward with and just to get a bit of me back

and do you think obviously some of the women getting in touch this morning totally understand but do you think family and friends or people around you understand I would say family and family friends have been fabulous. I have some people that only last week it was said to me by a colleague, well, it's elective surgery and that it's not elective. It's part of my cancer journey. It's, as my consultant said, it's kind of coming to the end of a long journey and navigating my

way through that part of it, to reclaim me. What about that, Rosie? You know, Alison's telling us of a comment almost saying it's cosmetic, elective that you're deciding on it, some might see it as cosmetic. How have women told you how they see it? I mean, I think that's really shocking what Alison is told by a colleague, but there is this misconception that this is an aesthetic procedure. I don't think that's thinking to tell the women that I spoke to say this is not about how they look. It's about putting themselves, their bodies, their lives back together after going through cancer. it's the full stop that they need on their cancer recovery. And obviously not everyone chooses it,

but there's been some research by the charity breast cancer now and they found that out of women who do choose reconstruction, nine out of ten of them say it's an integral part of their recovery process. Essentially can't feel like they've recovered and moved on and they're able to kind of process what happened to them and grieve, what happened to and grieve the loss of their breasts or breasts and move on with their lives until they've completed that process and had the reconstruction that they're looking for.

I've got a different comment. This is a person saying I'm the director of clinical service for tissue and cells. We bank fat tissue to help women needing breast reconstruction post-mastectomy. Wolverhampton, Worcester and Hampshire NHS Trust do this routinely since 2014. We've proved cost-effectiveness, but still an uphill, an uphill, excuse me, struggle to expand. Interesting, Rosie. Yeah, that's fascinating. I didn't know about that.

I mean, there are very many, you know, there's not one type of reconstruction. there's lots of different things. And I know that there are some trust doing really innovative stuff to both try and kind of improve that reconstruction process for women and also cut their waiting list. But it's definitely a postcode lottery. And in some areas, women don't even really have a proper choice of what they're offered in terms of reconstruction or implant options.

So it really depends on where you live, which isn't very fair. Well, definitely bringing some attention to it this morning. Alison, I wish you all the best. I hope it happens for you in the coming months. Thank you. So that was Alison from Stockport, who is awaiting reconstruction since the pandemic when she had a mastectomy, and also the journalist Rosie Taylor. You can find her work on this online.

Thanks for all your messages coming in. If you'd like to get in touch, 844-844. I do want to read a statement from the spokesperson for Manchester University NHS Foundation Trust, where Alison is located. She said, we sincerely apologise for the administrative error that led to Ms. Wilson being incorrectly referred to the skin cancer. clinic and for the distress that caused. We understand how important reconstructive surgery is to recovery and emotional well-being. Following breast cancer, we treat all our patients based on clinical priority. We have since introduced a new electronic referral system which prevents errors of this kind.

I do also want to let you know we asked NHS England for response. So far we have not received one and we do not have a right of reply from Sheffield either, which was mentioned in our discussion. If you have been affected by any of the issues we've been discussing, discussing, there are links to help and support on the BBC's Action Line. Now, I want to move on to something you might want to contribute to. On Bank Holiday Monday, we will be discussing how to have difficult conversations and I want to hear your experiences. Maybe, here's some examples.

You could be a doctor who's hot to tell patients about a difficult diagnosis. Maybe you've had to tell your best friend. something about them that you didn't like could be a little superficial like a haircut could become something serious like a husband whatever it is we want to know how you communicated it bonus points if it happens to be funny

you can email us BBC Women's Hour Leave us a voice note this is all about difficult conversations to text us 84844 on social media it's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website I mean I think this is going to be fascinating love to hear your stories, that difficult conversation.

What did you negotiate? What did you find too difficult to broach? What is it you would like to be able to speak about better? It could be anything. Could be in work negotiating a raise. It could be a romantic relationship trying to get certain points across. Could be with your child. 8-4-844 if you'd like to get in touch and contribute to our program,

which will be on Bank Holiday Monday. One more message on Reconstruction. Listening now, as I'm from, four weeks post lumpectomy. It's when you just have the lump out. And at the same time, therapeutic mammoplasty. I decided this route to balance the result of a mastectomy in 2009, followed by a DIP flap reconstruction.

It's a certain procedure in 2014. The DIP was major surgery. I've never regretted it. And for me, no major issues. 8444 if you'd like to get in touch. Next, I want to turn to Passport Bros. So this is the name given online. to men travelling from Europe and the US primarily,

searching for relationships with what they call good women. Generally, these are women who hold more traditional values. There's a new edition of the Economist's Weekend Intelligent Podcast that has been exploring this phenomenon, exploring what is attracting these men to relationships abroad and what's pushing them away from dating in their home countries. Joining us is Carla Suberana, who is a news editor for the economist and reporter in the podcast.

She's up early and on the line with us from New York. Good morning. Good morning. Hello. So Carla, explain a little bit further about what a passport bro is to our listeners. Yeah, so a passport bro is a man, a Western man who travels abroad, like normally to the global south for dating. And it's normally a digital nomad. So they earn in dollars or pounds. And they live somewhere in Asia or Latin America.

where their money stretches further. And they go there in search of more traditional relationships because probably they are very discontent with how the dating environment is in the West. So they go abroad in search of more traditional women. So you went to meet some of the men that call themselves passport pros. I mean, it's a hashtag. This is kind of, I suppose, quite viral in certain parts online as well

of people pushing forward this lifestyle. a way of, I suppose, working remotely and having romance or more dating chances that they have at home. But the kinds of guys that you met, they didn't strike you as the type that wouldn't be able to get a date in, let's say, New York or London. Yeah, no, I think according to the stereotype, you would think it's mostly either like retires or veterans or, As you say, men who are struggling with dating in their home countries. But what surprised me when I was there is that actually, pass for bros. A lot of them are young. They're educated from middle class backgrounds.

And they were dating in their home countries. It was just that they weren't quite finding what they were looking for because they were looking for more traditional women, which is something that has changed a lot in the West. and they go to countries which haven't seen those sort of feminist movements yet to find a more traditional role. Because a lot of them found where I was listening to your podcast, they felt like the dating apps, for example, was kind of the death knell for romance for them and that they just couldn't get matches or meet enough women in the way they felt they could in other countries. fundamentally reshaped how dating works.

Like what used to be a more sort of organic social process has become it was defined to us like a system. It's kind of like a marketplace where people are constantly being evaluated. Because in this app, it's very easy to filter and sort people by specific traits, things like height education or job. So you're basically making very quick decisions based on a handful of details. And the consequence of this is that it creates something like a ranking system where a very small group of people get most of the attention. And then the rest are left

like competing for scrap. So in the podcast, one of our contributors describes it as a very labor-intensive game, like something that takes a huge amount of time and effort. You're spending hours, swiping, messaging, like finding ways to stand out, but with very little rewards. at the end. But I think what's really interesting when I looked at this too because of your podcast, that very much happens for men

that it's like a small portion of men that get all the hits, whereas women on dating apps will have many more matches. Women are basically much more selective than the men are, I suppose, is the way I would put it in a line. I do want to play a little from your podcast.

This is Mike and his partner Paffan. He posts videos online about his life in Thailand. He's talking to you about the reaction he got to one of his most popular video so a lot of these passport bros put content up online about their lives.

He set up a camera in the corner of his apartment and sat down on the sofa pretending to clip his nails. Let's listen. Within seconds, his girlfriend, Fafan, rushes down the stairs,

grabs the clippers and starts clipping his nails herself. And I think like by the second or third clip, she says like daddy, you know, like things like that. And I just kept going and then she runs down the stairs.

No, this is my job. Like, stop, you know. That's my job. And it was just very cute and catering. And immediately, I knew the comments were going to be terrible. So many women in America and some men in America as well, who I feel have been brainwashed. They were commenting, like, really nasty things, like, oh, so you have a slave.

So two words struck me there, Carla, cute and catering. What Mike speaks about with his relationship. I mean, how typical do you think that dynamic is that's on display there when it comes to the sort of relationship that a passport bro is seeking? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of, as we said, like a lot of the men we spoke to, they left the West because they were feeling like a genuine sense of frustration and disillusionment with dating. And I think when it becomes more problematic,

is that in many of those passport bro videos, the frustration gets framed as if the issue is the woman themselves, rather than the system of dating being changed or women gaining more rights, because this is directly connected to the shifts we're seeing in society of like women becoming more independent, doing better in education. So this is also part of the so-called manor sphere, that they share this message that women in the West should behave differently, return to more traditional roles within relationships.

And those videos are a way of, comparing Western women versus what they say is good women, women who are more traditional. I wondered with Mike, though. He talks about all the comments. He's obviously putting it up there. You know, you wonder, is it sincere or is outrage kind of the point? Like his business model for getting more eyeballs on his content. You're totally right on this. The kind of content that performs best on the algorithm is the content that is the most polarized or exaggerated. So videos like the one we just listened to,

which present like very clear, simplified narratives, in this case about gender roles, about like winning in dating. And creators are very aware of this. So a lot of them admitted to us that they deliberately lean into this narrative. So these videos, very often they are emphasizing traditional gender roles, very strongly framing relationships in like very extreme terms. And what surprises when we went out and met these couples in real life is that the dynamics were actually very often

they were much more nuanced. The relationships, they didn't always match the version that was being presented online. I want to bring a clip of another woman, Jewel, who's really interesting. She's from the Philippines, based in Thailand, I believe, at the moment. But she lives with her American partner, Austin. They post about their life and relationship online as well. With commenters on that, some worry that Austin is exploiting.

people, others warn him, she's only with him for his money or for a passport. This is what Jewel has to say. When people say that, I find it funny and a little bit ignorant that's degrading to those women. The people that are saying those things doesn't consider women that are educated and, you know, very vocal or very powerful sort of in their relationship. They don't consider those kind of women. And that's a little, yeah, ignorant for me.

Jule also says that being with Austin allows her to escape some of the conservative values in her country. With Austin, I actually have that much freedom. Like, you always tells me if you want to quit your job, quit your job. If you want to go to school, go to school. In the Philippines, people would shame you for taking care of yourself first instead of, like, helping your family. It's really interesting, right? I mean, some can see this as a win-win situation. Jule feels it's a better partnership for her than being with a local man, for example,

who may have more traditional expectations than her partner, Austin. Carla? Yeah, I think what very often gets missed, as you say, is that those relationships can, like Julie is making a rational choice being with Austin because she's getting a more equal relationship than she would have had with a local partner because often these women are coming from very patriarchal societies, like much more in the West. So, yeah, I think that when these relationships become concerning, is that there is an underlying inequality there in terms of money and status and power.

And I think the issue is when those underlying inequalities start to influence power within the relationship, Because at the end of the day, money is power. So it can influence who has more control and who has more to lose. And I think this is when the dynamic becomes concerning. And what do you want people to know from your podcast about that dynamic? It's not as straightforward, perhaps, as we might initially think. Basically, those relationships, they cannot be reduced to like simple narratives of exploitation, because women do gain materially and socially from these relationships,

and they do exercise agency within them. So it's not an issue if they are getting into these relationships voluntarily. But I think it's hard to ignore. On one hand, that those choices, they are shaped by structural inequalities, which it makes them balance of power very difficult to ignore. And then on the other hand, that this movement is a very broad movement. So it's like a big spectrum. So I think that on one end of the spectrum,

there are men like Jewel's boyfriend who are going abroad to find genuine relationships, to find love. But then it also attracts men with more malignant intention. So this is creating big problems in some of these societies in terms of sex tourism. And you don't even have to go that far. In some cases, we spoke to some men who had like very dangerous view, very misogynistic views. So I think this is also when the problem. A big spectrum and I do want to be clear that those people you were speaking to were not involved in sex tourism.

But of course that can be another issue within some of the countries you were covering. I want to thank Carla Sobriana. The Economist Weekend Intelligence podcast is out now. Also, I was just wondering, you know, what would the parallel be for women? Where would they go? When I looked at the most gender-equal country, it's Iceland, apparently, so you'd have to head north.

I want to let you know. Tomorrow join Anita, who will be talking to Melanie C, of course, a household name for the past three decades. Brianie Gordon will be talking about her novel People-Pleaser. And also I want to let you know the NHS did get back saying they are working incredibly hard to bring down those wait lists for patients. Thanks for all your messages today. Really good to hear from you on Reconstruction, wishing you all the best of health. 84844 when you want to get in touch.

That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hi there. I'm Izzy Judd and I'm so pleased to be back with the Music and Meditation Podcast Series 6. We'll be talking about everything from reframing anxiety to getting a good night's sleep. So if you need to find some moments of calm in your day, subscribe to the music and meditation podcast on BBC Sounds.