Woman's Hour - Narcissistic mothers, Grenfell play, Orca whale mothers & their sons

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

Over the last few months we have been hearing the stories of women who believe that they were raised by mothers who have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And, a woman who has been labelled a narcissist by her daughter. Today, two psychotherapists who have worked extensively in this field, Dr Jan McGregor Hepburn and Helen Villiers, who has an MA in working therapeutically with adult children of narcissists, join Nuala to answer some of the questions raised by the powerful testimonies heard in the series. Have you ever witnessed a mature, grown male sticking close to – and being very dependent on - his mother? These are the words used to describe new findings from on-going research on orca whales. Carried out by the Centre for Whale Research and Exeter University, it studied orcas in the coastal waters between Vancouver and Seattle, to find that older "post-menopausal" orca mothers protect their adult sons from fights. But, while these four or five-tonne males benefit from this maternal protection, female offspring do not receive the same attention. Lead Researcher from the University of Exeter, Charli Grimes, speaks to Nuala. This year marks the sixth anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire where 72 people lost their lives. A new play created from interviews conducted with a group of survivors of the fire has opened this month at the National Theatre. Grenfell: in the words of survivors follows the lead up to the disaster, the night of the fire, and the Grenfell Inquiry which followed, and is still ongoing. The final report into the disaster is due to be published later this year. Nuala is joined by writer Gillian Slovo and actor Pearl Mackie. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Studio manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Last night I went to the play Grenfell in the words of survivors and I've been thinking about it ever since. It's created verbatim from the words of the survivors who were in the Grenfell fire and also from the subsequent inquiry. It is such a compelling watch. It's also uplifting in just how connected the community were and continue to be. They came together and are coming together still to try and effect

change. So we're going to speak to the actor Pearl Mackey and also the play's writer Gillian Slovo. And I'm wondering whether you have a story to share about a time your community came together it could be for something big or something very small but I'd love to hear that story do get in touch by texting that number is 84844

on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. If you would like to send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. Also today on Woman's Hour, narcissistic mothers. Now, if you're a regular listener to the programme, you will have heard many different perspectives on this. And today, my guests will be answering some of the questions that have been raised by the powerful testimony that we have heard. And staying with mothers, some fascinating new research about post-menopausal female orcas.

They protect their male offspring in those later years, but not their female offspring. Why the difference? Well, we'll talk about that and a little factoid for you this morning. Did you know that women and some female whales are the only mammals that experience menopause? That is all coming up. But first, a BBC Panorama investigation has found that so-called debt help social media posts are aggressively targeting vulnerable people

in financial trouble, particularly struggling mothers. The posts claim to help end money worries by getting individuals to sign up to individual voluntary arrangements or IVAs. But charities are warning some companies are misleading people with some claiming they've experienced high pressure sale tactics or are charged fees that they then struggle to pay. I'm joined by the BBC's Laura Jones and I also have Morgan Wild, Head of Policy at Citizens Advice. Welcome to you both. Laura, let me begin with you.

What prompted you to do this investigation? So we worked on the investigation for Panorama for about six months and really what sparked it was my scrolling through my phone, to be honest, maybe because I'm a business journalist and this type of content gets pushed my way on my feed. But I'd seen a lot of debt help videos across several platforms, but really I'd noticed a lot of posts on TikTok all making quite big claims about potentially writing off large amounts of debt without naming the actual product that you just mentioned, an individual voluntary arrangement. So I thought

that was something worth digging a bit more into. And what is an IVA or an individual voluntary arrangement? That's a great question. So they're not a new phenomenon. They came about in the 1980s, really as a way to help mainly self-employed people or the owners of smaller companies to give them a way to deal with their debts, but carry on trading at the same time. And it's essentially an agreement between the person in debt and the people they owe money to. So they their creditors. They usually last for about five or six years. And during the IVA, the interest on your debts is frozen. And the people you owe money to, your creditors should stop chasing you. And the company providing the IVA, they'll negotiate with the creditors on your behalf. If those creditors agree, at the end, they'll write off any leftover

debts that aren't covered by those monthly payments that you've made over the five or six years. So that all sounds pretty positive or above board. What's the problem? So it's worth saying IVAs can work for many people. But of course, like with many financial products, there are risks. And if you have a steady income, if you're fairly certain you can make those payments over five or six years, it might be something you want to speak to an independent debt advisor about. But as you say, there are those risks, they appear on your credit file, they will affect your credit score.

And sometimes there are fees charged by IVA companies that are front loaded. So we heard from one woman in the programme called Deborah in Halifax, and she terminated her IVA after 11 months and found that she had paid more than a thousand pounds to the IVA provider in fees and not one penny had gone on her actual debts. Right. So that really underlines it. And how are they targeting women and struggling mums in particular? I mean, you mentioned it on your TikTok feed, but do you think you're their demographic thereafter? So I'd say a lot of the online advertising you'll see across various social platforms

or reference mums and even single mums in particular they will single out as a demographic and often the posts are really emotive you'll see pictures of a mum surrounded by her kids opening some bills looking worried they might be testimonials from customers in the past talking about how this eased their money worries. And really often what you see as well is reference to bailiff action and an IVA being promoted as a way to prevent that contact. And I think for that demographic who, you know, the prospect of bailiff action when you have kids at home is a really scary prospect. That type of online advertising you can understand might be extremely appealing. You also mention in your article a woman called Shauna what happened to her?

So yeah we heard from Shauna in the program she's a 26 year old mum of three living in a village in South Wales and she built up debts of about £17,000 when she was really setting up her first home, kind of building her family life for the first time. And she saw a post on Facebook, she says, by a page called Mums in Debt. Again, as we've talked about, potentially making quite large claims about debt write-offs. So she got in touch with the page and was eventually passed on to another company and later signed up to an IVA at the cost of about £185 a month. But since that point, she's had a really big change in her circumstances. The relationship has broken down and she's working fewer hours because of those extra childcare commitments. And obviously, as we've all seen

with the price rises going on in recent months, that big change in circumstances combined with inflation means that she's now finding it really difficult to afford that IVA. So these are a couple of women that you've talked about, but we've also mentioned some of the social media sites that are, you say, targeting these women. What are TikTok saying about it, for example? So we wrote to Mums in Debt and Meta on Shauna's case in particular, and we didn't hear back from Mums in Debt. Meta declined to comment. And TikTok in particular, when we put some questions to them about the type of advertising going on there,

said that they were keen to work with the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK to make sure that creators and advertisers were complying with all the right guidelines. And they said that debt assistance programs, which IVAs fall under, aren't allowed on the platform. And they said that they are removed. And Meta being the parent company of Facebook. Let me turn to Morgan. You are Head of Policy at Citizens Advice. When you hear these stories, how concerned are you? We're extremely concerned. I mean, we often pick up the pieces for people who have been missold in individual voluntary agreements and that IVA has failed and they come to us looking for what they can do

and often they're in a worse situation than they started. If the IVA fails, they haven't been advised, but much better and cheaper options might be available for them. For most people we help, an IBA is a completely inappropriate solution. And they'd be better off with cheaper options like something called a debt relief order, where most of your debts can just be written off depending on your income. So it's really concerning. And we see a huge increase in the number of these firms targeting our clients. Well, we heard from Laura there, you know, the responses that she got when she reached out. What would you like to see happen?

We'd like to see a couple of things happen. So first and foremost, if you are giving advice on debt, that needs to be regulated. Lots of these firms are outside the Financial Conduct Authority's regulation. And that's the number one thing that needs to change. It's welcome that they're extending regulation to some parts of this industry, but it's still very piecemeal. And I think as Laura was saying, it is incredibly patchwork. And if you are somebody trying to work out what the best way forward is for you, if you're lucky, you find a debt advice provider like us. But if you search for citizens advice, debt advice on Google right now, the number one sponsored ad is for an IVN.

And so there's a real need for this problem to get grids. So the algorithms are working against you, so to speak. And I do want to say there are helplines available on the Women's Hour website related to this issue. But Morgan, you know, say somebody is listening, they are struggling, they were tempted perhaps by an IVA, but haven't taken that step. What would you say to them?

So debt advice and being in debt is one of the most complex situations that you can face. So people in that situation just reach out for advice. We can help you navigate a very complex landscape. It's completely free. It's independent. Pick up the phone, Citizens Advice,

and we'd be more than happy to help you find a way forward. Morgan Wilde, their head of policy at Citizens Advice, saying pick up the phone. Thank you, Morgan. And also to Laura Jones. You can watch

Debt Trap, Who's Cashing In? It's now on BBC iPlayer. If you want to get in touch with the programme, it is 84844 by text. I want to know about a time that your community came together. We're going to be talking about Grenfell a little bit later.

But if you are a regular listener to this programme you'll know for the last few months we've been talking about narcissistic mothers on Woman's Hour. All the episodes in the series are available on BBC Sounds. Details of where to find them and some articles are on today's page of the Woman's Hour website.

And joining me are two psychotherapists who have worked extensively in this field. Dr Jan McGregor Hepburn and Helen Villers, who has an MA in working therapeutically with adult children of narcissists and is a co-host of the podcast Insight Exposing Narcissism. First, to be clear, Jan, a narcissistic personality disorder is a formal diagnosis correct and welcome thank you well it is yes um but that is that that's a diagnosis which is usually made by a psychiatrist and it's when somebody is really um already involved in services forensic or um some other issues. So it's a mistake for it to be bandied around. Narcissism is a thing.

Healthy narcissism is where we all should start, pride in ourselves and in others and our achievements. But then when it tips over into what Helen and I might call pathological narcissism, the people around such a person are badly affected often. The person themselves perhaps feels less so. And Helen, so Jan is outlining it there and how it's diagnosed, but our interviews ascribe it to others. Have you treated narcissists yourself? I tend not to work with narcissists. They have come into my practice,

but because my work focuses mainly on working with adult children of narcissists, I don't really choose to work with them because it's a very difficult field to work in. It's very difficult to treat and it requires an awful lot of skill. And that's not really where my skill set lies. That's so interesting that you decide. Well, I'm sorry also to say you also don't often get them coming into therapy and you certainly don't get them staying in therapy. So they might come for a short period, but as soon as you offer any kind of challenge to their behaviour, that's it.

They're gone and possibly smearing you on the way out. I was going to agree with Helen, actually. I think if somebody who is struggling with narcissism or is a narcissistic character actually comes to treatment, that's a very good sign. You sometimes get narcissists brought along by their spouses. Yes. Yeah, I see them in couples therapy in couples therapy but actually for the narcissist they're not in a position to really face that it's their problem so why would they come to therapy yeah there's no self-reflection in narcissism there's a misconception that there's no self-awareness which isn't true it's an impaired self-awareness but what there is is no self-reflection in narcissism. There's a misconception that there's no self-awareness, which isn't true. It's an impaired self-awareness.

But what there is is no self-reflection. So it's not being able to look at behaviour and say, actually, I can see how why I did, when I did that thing, it impacted you that way and I shouldn't have done it. It's, well, that's your problem if you don't like it rather than, okay, I'm sorry. Already so much food for thought.

But before we go further, I want to bring a little reminder of the stories that we have heard on Women's Hour. And I should say all the names have been changed. Our reporter, Anna Miller, spoke first to two sisters

who have different views of the same mother. First, Charlotte remembers a key moment from her childhood. I must have been eight or nine and we were sat around the table on a Saturday early evening in the summer and she'd said something and just one or two words came out in a really Merseyside accent and I said to her you sounded really Liverpudlian then and she completely

flipped instantly flipped she got, her chair fell backwards. I'm not from Liverpool, I'm from Birkenhead. And went stamping and screaming upstairs. And I looked at my dad and I said, what have I said? What have I said? And my dad and I got up and went to the foot of the stairs and mum was on the half landing and by this time she was just

in her underwear and a bra and pants screaming and ranting and she pointed her finger down the stairs and says look what you've done to me and I thought she was pointing at me and the next time I saw her she'd had electric shock therapy and she was slumped on her bed, almost dribbling out of one side of her mouth. And for 40 years, I thought that was my fault and that's what I had done to her. So that alone, just talking through that with my therapist was amazing because I could rationalise that it wasn't my fault, but I didn't understand what was going on until I knew that Mum was a vulnerable narcissist and she wants to portray to the world one image and if I break through that image, she will hate it.

When she spoke to Charlotte's sister Louise, Anna began by reading out a list of narcissistic traits. Love is conditional. Mother wants to be in control. Be littles. The child manipulates them. Won't or can't validate feelings. Unpredictable, volatile, above the rules.

I mean, the list goes on. Now, Charlotte identified with a lot of that. Do you? Not as much as Charlotte, if I'm honest. Is Charlotte influencing your train of thought now with regards to what she's learned and your memories of what you had with your mother? If anything, it's made me feel a little bit more sympathetic.

To? To my mum, because she had these traits and she didn't have the mental capacity to reflect and realize and that's not necessarily her conscious fault when scarlet became certain that her mother was a narcissist she took action and cut off all contact. Is the door ever open? Is this it for the rest of her life, your life? Absolutely, yeah. You seem to be thriving. Yeah, thank you, yeah. It's OK to not have people in your life

that don't support you or that aren't your cheerleaders or treat you the way that, like, my mum treated me. And it was the best thing that I ever did. Just because they're your mum or your dad or your caregiver or whatever, if they're not a nice person, you don't need them in your life. Do you meet other people who've experienced the same thing as you? No, that's not something that I want to do, because, for me, this isn't competitive,

so I don't actively seek this out. I know a lot of people go on to groups and it's that's just not my thing I'm dealing with this the best way for me because it's quite trendy you're nodding in agreement like a worry of mine is that because it is so trendy at the moment and I think people are throwing around the word narcissist like confetti right now. But they're not really understanding what it means. I am worried that the whole trendiness around it invalidates the people who have suffered at the hands of like a narcissistic parent. It is a heavy word. So to make light of it, I don't think is the best thing.

Another listener got in touch to tell us the other side of the story. And her words have been voiced up by an actor. The relationship with her daughter had been strained for many years. Bethany freely admits that she was sometimes a thoughtless parent and that she could be distant. Earlier this year she received a book about narcissism in the post from her daughter. I read the passages she'd highlighted and I was horrified she felt that way. And I thought, my God, what have I done to my daughter to make her believe this about me? That was my first thought. What a failure you are. You know, sometimes once you've

read something, you just can't get it out of your head. Are there things that you just can't get it out of your head are there things that you just can't forget yeah that my love is not real she thinks my love is counterfeit coins and of no value she highlighted that in a piece of text she sent me she's taken a template that she's using to highlight things the term narcissist is like an umbrella word for lots and lots and lots and lots of different behaviours, right? So how do you shake it off? Because even if you try, then there's no, does that other person then believe that you're trying or do they think you're just being deceitful? You can't shake it off. If you change your behaviour, it's fake.

You might as well be telling somebody they're a leper. It's just a label that you cannot shed. Apparently, questioning, am I a narcissist, means you're not. Well, I've asked myself that every single day since I've had that book, but I don't think that'll make any difference in my daughter's eyes. I think I'll always be a narcissist to her because I don't fit this framework which she's got in her head of what her mother should be. Lastly, Louise and Ed, they're trying to change the pattern set up in Louise's childhood. She identified herself as an angry mum, as a controlling parent. Behaviour she thinks she learned from her own mother.

This is where my lightbulbs come from is that I'm seeing history repeat itself. I'm like, I can't have this. This has got to stop. What's it been like watching all of this evolve? These last couple of years of her being more self-aware of the situation has probably been the hardest because she's not hiding anymore. She's trying to be open and she wants to make a change. There was something I read and it said that narcissists

don't know that they're doing it. Yeah. A narcissist will never see any wrong in what they're doing. Yeah. When you realise what a narcissist is, you're like, oh, my God, I am one. I am one as well. And then you do more research and you're like, okay, no, I'm not.

You start seeing holes in everyone now to a degree. It's hard when you educate because then you just pick apart everything. I feel Edward is the first person in your life has said, I believe you. Yeah, the first person to ever see it and understand what I'm going through because it has to explain how I react. Our journey as parents has made her realise that, no, this is how I would have liked to have been treated.

Well, thanks to all of the people who told us their stories and to the many, many of you listeners who shared your experience. Thank you for that. Jan and Helen are with us, my guests, two psychotherapists with expertise in this field. Jan, we talked about narcissistic mothers in our series and some listeners were questioning that. Narcissistic fathers must also exist.

Are they as harmful? Well, it really depends, I suppose, on the structure of the family because the way we function as a society generally is that mums do more of the family um because the way out where we function as a society generally is that mums do more of the caring and obviously from in most families not in all families the mum's the person who gives birth to you so that the the conduits and the attachments tend to be stronger although of course the relationship with fathers is strong too, the bond tends to be a bit stronger and the impact then would tend to be stronger, I would say. But being around a

narcissist, I agree using the term lightly isn't a great plan, but being around a narcissist is very difficult and painful and makes you feel, can often make you feel you're in the wrong. So yes, a dad could do that too. But some might say, you know, this is another label that we're attaching to women, demonising them in a way. Well, yes, I agree with that. As I say, being around somebody who is, what I would understand as suffering from a narcissistic character and a narcissistic defence, you know, they are defences. All defences are offensive

to somebody else and narcissism particularly so. So it's the mother's place is in the wrong, isn't it? We live in a culture which often has a bad mother discourse. And I agree, being around narcissistic people is very hurtful, whatever their gender, whatever your relationship with them. But the closer you are, the more it may hurt. I haven't heard that term before. That mother's place is always in the wrong. Helen, let me turn to you. It is a buzzword, though, at the moment, right? Narcissism. And one of our interviewees described it as people throwing the word around like confetti,

which I thought was so evocative. What's the difference between a trendy word and the reality? I mean, I think when we talk about narcissistic personality disorder, we're talking about a very severe mental health condition that has to be diagnosed, as Jan said, by a psychiatrist. It's really quite significant. narcissistic personality disorder, we're talking about a very severe mental health condition that

has to be diagnosed, as Jan said, by a psychiatrist. It's really quite significant. But what we could be talking about instead is toxic narcissistic traits, where people have developed these defences, these coping mechanisms that are toxic and narcissistic because they are centring the person to themselves, sorry, centering themselves to the situation. So I think there's a sort of double-edged sword to it because I think it's helpful for people to have labels to understand their own experience. But I understand also it's at risk of invalidating the real impact of being around someone who is diagnosable with NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, because it really is so significant and the behaviour is so harmful.

You know, because Jan was telling us there about that connection that there can be between mothers and their children. What would your definition of a narcissistic mother be? And what research shows that the impact can be on their children? I mean, that's a massive question. Yeah, it sure is. But when we're talking about narcissism, when I was doing my master's,

there were five main traits that I would look for. And that would be grandiosity and inflated sense of superiority. A huge level of entitlement. I will just take what I want, whatever I want, regardless of the cost to other people. Exploitation, using people to meet that entitlement need. Motivational empathy.

Again, there's a misconception that there's a lack of empathy. It's not. It's motivational empathy. It's the, oh, I'm just so sad because I've hurt you and asking people to kind of feel bad for you for making you feel bad. And then the impaired self-awareness. So when we see all those five behaviours, those five traits, and they might appear overtly or covertly, women tend to be more covert presenting and men tend to be more overt presenting because of patriarchy and women aren't allowed to be as overt and brash, you know, by social standards. But the impact is massive. And what I see in my client group is a huge range of mental health conditions,

but primarily CPTSD, borderline personality disorder. Sorry, CPTSD is complex post-traumatic stress disorder, which involves having emotional flashbacks, not just visual flashbacks that we see with PTSD. We see eating disorders, self-harm. We see anxiety, chronic depression, huge lack of identity, hugely very, very low self-esteem and self-worth. I mean, the list really is endless there's a devastating impact which is why it's so important to talk about this and try and remove ourselves from the idea that it's a buzzword just to kind of give space for people to be able to reflect on the impact that their childhood has had on them and how that affects their relationships now which

is the most important bit of all of it, of course. Jan, you know, I was interested as well that so many of the people that we were speaking to all wish that they had figured it out sooner. They had, and they actually used the word, a light bulb moment when everything fell into place. Jan, why do you think it can take people so long to realise? Well, if you think you learn who you are, as it were, by what you see reflected back in the eyes of the people around you. If you are in relation to somebody who cannot reflect you back as you, but as an extension of themselves. This is how you understand the world. So that you, a lot of people who've been around somebody with

narcissistic traits, as Helen said, really will think it's their fault, won't understand. They blame that, as one of your people said, her mother was so ill and she thought for 40 years it was her fault for having said this one wrong thing. So that it takes a long time because it means you have to restructure everything. How you've understood the world yourself. And the light bulb moment is only possible when you are free enough to see and usually when you have somebody else to help you switch it on. Helen, what do you think is the biggest lie that a narcissist tells their child? Oh, that they're the problem, that they are the problem in the relationship. There's something

called the complementary moral defence, where a child naturally in childhood will assume that they are the bad thing. If something bad happens, it's them. They take what's called the moral defence. So if there's a bad thing in a relationship, it's my fault that that's happened, thinks the child. And instead of being a healthy parent and saying, no, darling, that's not your fault. You didn't do that. Mummy's upset because this or whatever it is. The narcissistic parent locks into the complementary moral defense into a place of perfectionism where they say, yes, you're right. It is you that's bad. And that in itself is also why it takes so long for people

to realise what's happened to them and why their parent has been abusive towards them, because they've been taught forever that they're the problem, but they aren't. They aren't the problem at all. It's the behaviour that's been exhibited towards them. And it's always safe to be a bad baby in a good world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so interesting, just some of the aspects that are coming up,

because it's chiming, of course, with so many of these stories that we have heard. Helen, you've decided to use TikTok and social media to talk about the impact of having narcissistic parents. Why? Because I just think it needs exposing. You know, I'm very privileged to have a huge amount of knowledge having done my master's and to understand things. And I recognise that not everybody can access therapy. So using social media, using blogs, videos and everything else to kind of share that knowledge makes it accessible to people who might not be able to get into therapy, first of all, but also people who don't realise that they've had this experience.

So here we are talking about why is it, why does it take so long? What I'm seeing now as a result of social media is that people are real younger and younger most people realize when there's a catalytic uh event such as a wedding a baby some kind of major illness where attention should be on them but instead it's not it's on the narcissistic parent and now because I'm out there with other creators educating about this kind of behavior what emotional abuse looks like what narcissism looks like, people are starting to learn. And that's why I do it, because it's empowering other people. And I think Manny will be wondering, with the narcissist, do they mean to do what they do?

Can they control it? I mean, we spoke at the beginning of this, saying they wouldn't be in therapy to begin with because they don't think they have a problem. They wouldn't be walking through the door and because they don't think they have a problem. They wouldn't be walking through the door and they definitely wouldn't stay there, you said. Well, let me put it to you this way. If I tell you that you do something that hurts me

and you continue to do that thing knowing it hurts me, are you doing it with intent or not? Right. So how, is there a way to break through to make somebody understand and to make them change their behavior well i think what we have to look at then is that somebody who goes no contact like scarlet in your series would have tried that for years they would have tried and tried nobody voluntarily orphans themselves. This is your primary attachment figure.

We are attachment-driven beings. And to cut your parent off is a devastating, grief-stricken process to go through to get to that point and then after that point to cast yourself into the world with no support is devastating. So yes, people do try, but they cannot get through because what there is not, as I said right at the beginning, is self-reflection. And the person

is blamed for their reaction to the abuse rather than the abuse being taken accountable for in itself. So Jan, I have to throw that back over to you. Do you think there is ever hope of change or, as Scarlett talked about, cutting her mother out of her life? Is that the only way forward? Well, I always believe change has to be possible. But for somebody who has a lot of narcissistic traits, you have to understand that it doesn't make sense to them in an internal way. They don't have the real concept of another's separate existence. So that it hurts them, the other person, isn't really of consequence because because the narcissistic person themselves is desperately trying to survive. They experience, I have a colleague who says,

to a narcissist you are either admiring audience or enemy. There isn't anything else. So that, of course, people can change. They can get help. But as Helen said, not everybody has access to therapy but also they can kind of I was interested in what one of the other contributors saying about she would she'd be accused of being fake but you can of course you can't help how you feel but you can always help what you do so people can learn and often that is why narcissists are successful.

If you're in the headlight beam of the narcissist and they desire you, it looks like love. So there is some movement, but I do think it is very difficult and it can be circular. And the person in relation to the narcissist blames themselves because the narcissist doesn't listen to them. Dr. Jan McGregor Hepburn and Helen Villers, thank you both so much. And just to remind our listeners, all of the episodes in this series are available on BBC Sound.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. I was just looking at Helen's necklace that she's wearing and his little whale tail.

I'm going to come to a whale tail in just a moment. But before that, and thanks for your messages coming in again on narcissistic parents. Maybe you have a personal story that you want to tell on Woman's Hour. We have Listener's Week returning on the 21st of August, my first one. So I'm very excited about that. So it could be a story, I don't know, that's difficult or it could be something that's inspiring. It might be something you want to shine a light on. Maybe something we don't hear about often enough or ever. But we do want to hear from you. We've had so many over the years, very powerful ones, from the listener who shared her experience of being bullied by her children,

to Bernard, who took up ballet in his 70s after the death of his partner and found it life-changing. The way to get in touch, text is 84844 at BBC Woman's Hour or indeed email us on the website. I just want on narcissism before I move on. I realised in my late 50s that I am the daughter of a narcissistic mother. My mother attempted to sabotage my career by phoning my superiors to inform them about my shortcomings. This is the tiny tip of a huge iceberg. I wish I'd been aware when I was younger and I could have found the strength

to cut her out of my life. So pleased you're highlighting this issue on the programme. Now, Wales, have you ever witnessed a mature, full-grown male sticking close to and also being very dependent on his mother.

Well, these are the words used to describe new findings from ongoing research. But I'm not talking about humans. No, it found that older postmenopausal orca mothers protected their adult male offspring from fights. But while these four or five tonne males, who are double the size of their mothers, benefit from this maternal protection

female offspring do not receive the same treatment. Here to tell us more is lead researcher from the University of Exeter, Charlie Grimes. Welcome Charlie. So I need to know some more about the research that you found and why did you go down the path

of figuring out more about post menopausal orcas and their male offspring or bulls? Well menopause is such a rare and unusual trait in the natural world and you know this is part of an ongoing body of research carried out by the Centre of Whale Research and the University of Exeter examining menopause in southern resident killer whales specifically. These are a small endangered population of killer whales that inhabit the coastal waters of Washington state and Canada and we were able to carry out this research because the Centre for Whale Research have

been carrying out a photographic census of the population since the 1970s and we were able to use these photographs of each whale and we examined them for tooth rake marks. So these are injuries that present on the skin and they're the result of another whale running their teeth along the surface. And these are well-established kind of indicators of physical social interactions in killer whales. And they typically arise from aggression or from rough play.

So we were able to use these photographs and these tooth rate marks to measure conflict within the population over the duration of the study. And what we found is that these injuries or these rate marks were lower for males who had their post-menopause mother in their social unit compared to those whose mother was still breeding or those who had no mother at all. And it's really interesting because it shows us that these mothers are directing this social support or this protective behaviour towards their male offspring. Why would they need to do that, Charlie?

Well, you know, it kind of all comes back to how a mother can pass on her genes, I guess, to future generations. So, you know, if these females are no longer reproducing themselves, they can't pass on their genes. And so a really unusual feature of this society is that these males will stay with their mothers for the duration of their lives. Females stick close to their mums too, but they tend to be a bit more independent when they have their first calf. And males can, you know, when they mate, they mate outside the social unit. They mate with multiple females.

And so when they have these calves, the burden of the calves falls to another social group. Whereas for females, having her own calf, she has to carry it for up to 18 months. And that comes at a cost to her own family unit. So postmenopausal females can benefit their sons, helping them survive and reproduce, and through them can pass on more of their genes to future generations. And I suppose the part of this that I find so fascinating is that they're not protecting their female offspring in the same way. And I know it is a smaller amount of genes that will be passed on, obviously, through the females than rather through the males if he is mating with various female orcas. But did that surprise you? It was definitely interesting to see. And it might be that males just face more conflict than females.

You know, they do mate for females so there's competition there whereas females don't mate uh don't compete to mate um yeah and it you know it it could be all kinds of things um we also know that um male killer whales generally engage in more play than females so it could come from that you know a fight uh sorry play that turns rough so yeah without directly observing the behavior it's difficult to say you say what conflict these whales are facing. But that's what we think. And if and when, I suppose, the post-menopausal mother whale dies, does that have repercussions on the male offspring that she has been protecting? Yeah, yeah. So previous research has shown that when your postmenopausal mother dies, your kind of your mortality skyrockets. And this

is particularly evident in males. So their mortality goes up eight times. And so it just shows that these postmenopausal females are really having, you know, an effect on their son's survival. They also have to feed them, though. I mean, it felt very unfair to me, I have to say, as I was reading some of the research. And do you think that's all from an evolutionary point of view, that they're prepared to not only protect them by being beside them, but also to give over whatever nutrition they might have for themselves to their male offspring. Yeah, I mean, as you said, these males are huge, you know, they're almost double the

size of their mums and they, you know, they need a lot of food. And they're incredibly large whales that it's quite hard to kind of move a cumbersome body around when you're trying to catch a very small salmon. So it's hard to say whether these males are reliant on their mums or they've just kind of got used to mum helping. And I think it's not dissimilar to what we see sometimes in humans. You know, they're definitely mummy's boys. And if mum can do the work, then why would she bother? Well, exactly. So I suppose, do they, so they stay with them? I'm just wondering about that period when there is a male offspring.

So a pup, I suppose they're called, or a calf, that when the mother is still not postmenopausal, is she around? Is he around her at that time or does that bond just reignite after the menopause? No, they're still with them. So a female can have multiple calves, but they will still have those really, really close bonds and associations. Yeah. So they never leave home, so to speak? No, they never leave home. And just on that point, the other part, which I found fascinating, that it's only humans and some whales are the only mammals that go through the menopause. Do we know why orcas cease reproduction? I mean, is it tied up with taking care of the male offspring or could it be something else?

Because they live for a long time after menopause as well. They do. And yeah, as you said, it's extremely rare. It's, you you know it's a handful of species you know in the whole animal kingdom and so there's a number of factors why this could be happening and it's a real puzzle from an evolutionary perspective because you know animals should you know the best strategy is for animals to keep reproducing until they die to pass on as many genes as possible um so observing this in killer whales indicates there's a lot of selective pressures on them. And it seems to come down to kind of a biological cost benefit analysis. So can an older female bring a measurable benefit to her existing family, which outweighs the genetic cost of having no more babies herself? And we know that in killer whales, when an older female

kind of reproduces at the same time as her daughters, there's a conflict, there's, you know, she doesn't do as well. And so this might be a mechanism by which menopause has evolved. But then there needs to be, you know, she needs to be able to provide benefits to her offspring, which kind of outweigh these costs of stopping reproducing herself. And we see that these females can, you know, they feed them directly. They lead them to foraging grounds. They know where to find food and they increase their survival.

And now we're seeing that they also protect them in times of conflict. So it's all these kind of components together, which is why this seems like a really good strategy for killer whales to evolve.

So interesting. Charlie Grimes, thank you so much for joining us, lead researcher from the University of Exeter. Thanks to all of you getting in touch. We're going to be talking about a community. And let me see, this is Sue that got in touch. In 2015, I was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer.

We were living in America at the time, far from any family. One of our neighbours went to a local craft shop and bought some wooden S's to represent my name, Sue, and distributed them to all 29 homes. She explained my story and asked everyone to stand, these letters, by their

mailboxes. She felt it would encourage me to know people were thinking and praying for us. The next time I went out and saw them, I cried. I'm pleased to say I'm now cancer free at 77 years of age. Sue, that is a wonderful story and the reason I'm asking for your stories of community is because of our

next item. This year marks the 6th anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire where 72 people lost their lives on the 14th of June 2017. There's a new play created from interviews conducted with a group of survivors of the fire. It has opened this month at the National Theatre. It's called Grenfell in the words of survivors and follows the lead up to the disaster, the night of the fire and the subsequent

inquiry which is still ongoing. The final report into the disaster is due to be published and next year is the latest date that I saw. I think there might be a draft at the end of this year. Calls for justice and accountability do continue from those who survived. I'm joined now by the play's writer, Gillian Slovo, and actor, Pearl Mackey, who plays survivor Natasha Elcock in the play. Welcome to you both to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much.

Thank you. I went to see it last night and I have to say I found it just incredible. I was, I don't know, just a mesmerising watch from beginning to end. It is verbatim, as I mentioned. Gillian, tell me a little bit about the process, because also as I was watching it, I was just thinking what a mammoth task you had. You must have had ahead of you on those first days as you began to think about it. It was a mammoth task.

I mean, it involved me in interviewing very, very many people before I decided how I was going to structure the play. But it was also one of the most wonderful tasks that I've ever done. Because I met such amazing people. And it is in many ways a play about that community, about the things that they went through, yes, that were unbearable, but also about the way that they have helped each other and the way that they have survived. And, you know, those who lived, lived to campaign, to keep themselves together and to campaign that this shouldn't happen to anybody else. Yes, it is uplifting. I really want to get that across as well. And we get to know these people.

I feel that maybe we would have caught a snippet of them on the news at a certain time or heard a little of their story. But then it's like as a fully rounded character. Pearl you play Natasha Elcock tell us a little bit about her story she is the chair of the Grenfell Survivors Collective. She is yeah the chair of Grenfell United I mean she's just an incredible woman her story is incredibly powerful. Obviously, you know, as Gillian's touched on, the night of the fire, her journey sort of down with her family is pretty harrowing. But also, I think, as Gillian mentioned, one of the most amazing things about this play is it is about the community. And it's about the community as it was before the fire. And, you know, what an incredible place it was to live and I think you know I think as you said seeing snippets of them in the media sort of following

that the way in which the survivors and indeed the residents who lost their lives were portrayed in the media just after the fire was so inaccurate I think that part of our job and part of the responsibility that we've undertaken is to rehumanize this community and to just sort of shine a light on the fact that they are just normal people, people like us, like you and me. And to tell the story and to not sort of vilify them as, you know, illegal immigrants packed into, you know, 17 people into one room, you know, not that there's anything wrong with illegal immigrants. But, you know, I think this community that we're just trying to sort of speak for the reality of them and them as a whole.

Well, we can hear a clip of you speaking Natasha's words. I never saw it as a deprived area. I just saw it as a deprived area. I just saw it as a council estate in the middle of Notting Hill. I was always really proud. I'd say, I live in the royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea.

Since the fire, my viewpoints on the fact that it's the royal borough has changed. Gillian, how difficult was it to have survivors who were some also bereaved retell their stories? It was difficult for me to hear of them,

but it was more difficult for them to tell me because they were, and certainly at the beginning when I was talking to them, extremely traumatised by what had happened to them. But they did it because they want an audience to hear what they've been through and to see how they survived in a way. I mean, I always ask people at the end of the interview, what would you want the play to do? And one person said, I want the audience to see themselves in us. And I think if we as an audience can see ourselves in them, we'll see ourselves as incredibly heroic, actually.

As I would be proud of myself if I was able to do what some of those people did on that night of the fire and also what they did before to try and prevent something like this happening. They are the most amazing people. And, you know, so that talking to them, there were tears, there were difficulties. Some people didn't want to talk about the night of the fire and gave me permission to use their witness statements in the inquiry. But talking to them left me with some of the pain of what they'd been through, but a lot of the wonder of what they had been capable of. And I think that's what we're trying to share with the audience. In April this year, some survivors spoke out and said they believed the National Theatre was stealing their experiences by doing this play. They also called on the BBC to stop their upcoming production of Grenfell.

What did you make of that opposition to it? And did it give you pause? Well, of course, anything like that gives one pause. But I think the thing is, we did not steal anybody's experiences, because we actually have used the words of the people who experienced this. But one of the things I think about it is that it's not only the people in the tower who were so brutalized by what had happened then, it was also the people of the community who had to watch this happening. It's very traumatizing. And I understand the anger that some people feel. And I just hope that those people can come and see what we've done in the play and change their minds about whether we have, you know, about the fact that we have given actually voice, not to everybody's experience, but to some people's experience. You at points, Pearl, represent those giving evidence to the Grenfell inquiry which I think also for the

audience you're like oh hang on I'm sympathetic to that person am I sympathetic to this person how did you find playing those different roles people sometimes on opposite ends of the spectrum on accountability? I think for me well I actually I play a QC as well. It's sort of in the inquiry. So I feel like positioning wise, I kind of come at it from a similar angle. But some of your co-stars don't. No, exactly. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting.

And I think it does create quite a dichotomy for an actor, sort of giving voice to a survivor who's been through so much and then giving voice to, you know, maybe someone from a massive corporation that should be held accountable who is completely evasive and avoiding any kind of responsibility. I think it is a really difficult thing, but I think what Gillian's done so cleverly is weave the inquiry in with these survivors' stories

and it really helps to give a perspective of sort of the aim of the production, which is to, it's the kind of a call to justice, really. And, you know, just we sort of want people to be galvanized into getting justice for these people, and indeed, for people who live in these buildings that still have cladding on them, and all sorts of things like that. You know, as I walked out, there were quite a few people that had tears in their eyes or were crying at the end of it. And there's lots of laughs in it as well, I should say. But Gillian, I'm curious what response you've had from those who've seen it who survived Grenfell. They've been incredibly supportive about it.

I mean, they didn't just see it at the end of this five and a half year process. We have been in touch with them throughout the process. We did the first reading of the play to them alone and we've consulted them at every point. And so a lot of them, I mean, there was, you know, some of them have come and laughed and their kids have come as well

and laughed at the portrayal of their parents on stage, which has lightened the atmosphere considerably. In general, people who are in the play have been incredibly supportive of it. How important was it to also include the run up? Because it begins actually a number of years before that night. It was important because this isn't a play about just what happened. It's about the why of what happened. That's why the inquiry is in there. And that's why the portrayal of what this Grenfell Tower was,

what this community was, is incredibly important. Because the portrayal in the media immediately after the fire was as if these were the poorest people and they had become victims. They weren't victims, they were a very vibrant community who could see that things were going wrong and were trying to stop it and were not listened to. So it was really part of what the story that we wanted to tell. Back to you, Pearl. It's such, I'm sure, an emotional outpouring that you need to do every night. I'm curious, does that take its toll on you?

And also, what are you feeling from the audience that you're so connected to in this performance? Yeah, I mean, I think it does take its toll. But I mean, for me, I think the importance of getting the story out there and of amplifying the voices of the survivors and the bereaved of the community is sort of outweighs that. And obviously, you know, the National have actually been amazing in terms of enabling a lot of self-care and a lot of kind of group kind of care within within that so so that's been great but um in terms of the audience reaction um it's

one of the most sort of visceral uh audiences I've ever been been been witnessed to there's like quite a lot of like vocalization of of of care and of outrage, which is really fascinating. I have to say, I'll say it again, I thought it was incredible. Gillian Slovo, Pearl Mackey, thank you both so much for coming in to the Woman's Hour studio. And Grenfell, in the words of survivors, is at the National Theatre and it runs until the 26th of August 2023.

Thanks to you both. Thank you. I'll be back with you again tomorrow. I'll talk to you then. I hope you'll join me on Woman's Hour. We'll be speaking to Carol Fisher. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. You know the problem with technology, right? We've made it too complicated. I mean, it's filled with jargon and buzzwords and really it doesn't need to be. So I am going to fix it. Understand Tech and AI is a new series from BBC Radio 4 with me, Spencer Kelly. I've got together some great guests to help me explain everything from getting online to avoiding the artificial intelligence apocalypse.

So I'll see you there. Subscribe to Understand on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.