Woman's Hour - Natalie Imbruglia, Adele Parks, Forced adoption, Heart attacks

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

The award-winning singer-songwriter and actress Natalie Imbruglia first hit our screens in the early 1990s, playing the role of Beth Brennan in the Australian soap Neighbours. Her 1997 debut single Torn quickly became a worldwide hit, and she’s sold more than 10 million albums. Her latest album, Algorithm, is out later this week. Natalie joins Nuala McGovern to discuss some of its themes – relationship breakups, perfectionism and perimenopause, and what it feels like to be championed by the new generation of pop stars.A new definition of heart attacks could help transform the way women are diagnosed and treated. Experts in the field say women have been 'deprioritised' for decades, but this new global guidance has a new focus on the types of heart attacks experienced by women, and the criteria used to detect them. Professor Nick Mills, British Heart Foundation Professor of Cardiology at the University of Edinburgh, joins Nuala to explain along with Allison Lawson, who had a heart attack two years ago.Between 1949 and 1976, an estimated 250,000 mothers in the UK had their new-born children taken from them through a system involving the state, social workers and religious organisations. A landmark BBC documentary, available now on iPlayer, Stolen Babies, tells the story of those women and the children who were taken from them. In July, the outgoing Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer issued a formal apology. Judy Baker, who features in the documentary talks about her own experience of giving up a baby.Bestselling author Adele Parks joins us to talk about her new book Eyes On You which follows the story of Amy who, at fifteen, witnessed her father brutally murder his mistress. She tells Nuala why she wanted to explore the effect of such a crime on the perpetrator's family, and how she has tried to make each of her 26 books better than the last.

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with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. So it is September 1st.

How are you feeling? already nostalgic for summer, or excited for what comes with shorter days and that crispness in the air? Now, I couldn't help but notice the amount of articles encouraging us to change it up from today. I have seen, get your home under control for the season ahead. Eight analog hobbies to reset your attention span this autumn and banish your excess holiday pounds. Now, is this just more predictable messaging aimed at women to do better or be better, or instead do you find it a useful time of year to transform or transition? You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. We also have the singer Natalie

in Brulia with us this hour and she has a new album. One of her songs, Endgame, is a reminder to herself, She says, what are you willing to put yourself through and why are you doing it? Now maybe that sentiment resonates with you on this September 1st. You can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 0-3700-100-400-444. And on most smart speakers, you can say Alexa, ask BBC Sounds to send a comment. I want to hear how you are feeling right now. Also today, the best-selling author, Adele Parks, she has a new book, Eyes on You.

It is her 26. We're going to chat about that. And also, you might remember, in July, the former Prime Minister, Kirstarmer, delivered a formal national apology for the historic practice of forced adoptions in England and Wales. Well, I'm going to speak to Judy Baker. Now, she is a mother whose baby was taken. When Judy gave evidence to Parliament, she said the true impact of her. adoption is rarely talked about openly and that she believes, and I quote, she said quite irrationally, adoption is one of the few experiences in life where society expects everyone

involved to be grateful. We're going to hear her story. I'm looking forward to speaking to Judy a little later this hour. But let me begin with a promise of better health care for women. A new definition of heart attacks could help transform the way women are diagnosed and treated. Experts in the field say women have been deprioritised for decades, but this new global guidance has a new focus on the types of heart attacks experienced by women and the criteria used to detect them. Well, with me is Professor Nick Mills, British Heart Foundation Professor of Cardiology at the University of Edinburgh and Alison Lawson, who had a heart attack two years ago.

Great to have both of you with us this morning. Nick, let me begin with you. You helped lead an international task force of clinician, of clinicians. who have devised new definition and guidance for heart attacks. Tell me why. So good morning. Thank you very much for having me join you. I've just returned from Munich, where we launched this definition.

All the major societies in the world with expertise from five continents, 12 different countries got together to try and standardise the way that we diagnose heart attacks around the world. This is important because the research into heart disease, if we want to be able to apply it in our local hospital, the Royal Infirmary in Edinburgh here for me, we need to be using the same definition and the same criteria. And there are a few things that this will help us achieve. And one of the most important ones is to reduce inequalities where they have arisen in the diagnosis of heart disease around the world. and therefore it is particularly important for women. So we know we've spoken about this previously on the program that heart attacks have traditionally been associated with men.

You say this is significant for women. What have been the barriers previously? So around one in ten people will experience a heart attack in their lifetime and it is the most common cause of death in women. During the recording of this program, I would estimate around 10,000. people will attend a hospital or emergency department in the world with chest pain, possible heart attack, and around half of those will be women.

And yet over the years we have tended to under-recognise heart attacks in women. One of the most fundamental reasons why, and this is something we've known about for a little while in the UK, thanks to the British Heart Foundation's research over the last decade, is that one of the blood tests we use to measure a point, protein that comes out of the heart when it's injured, the levels are much lower in women. They're half those in men. But for 30 years, we've used an average level that is perhaps over-recognised heart disease in men and systematically under-recognised it in women.

And therefore, by introducing new standards that recognise these sex differences, it could have a fairly profound effect on the diagnosis in women. I mean, there is a question to be asked. Maybe it's for another time of why that continued, for. 30 years if there was knowledge for so many previous years that this was not a quality, for example, when it came to testing. But let me turn to some of the good news, which is today these changes are going to take place globally. What will that mean for women and their heart? What is it exactly? So the definition provides a new framework for doctors and patients that

gives a real clarity about what the cause of your heart attack is in order to provide more personalised and effective care. Not all heart attacks are the same. So the most common cause of a heart attack is cholesterol build up in the arteries that supply blood to the heart and then a clot that forms on the surface of that. And I should highlight that remains the most common cause, both in women and men. But there are other causes and those other causes are just as important. important and many of those other causes are much more common in women, like for example a tear in the blood vessel wall or spasm where the blood vessel contracts and reduces the blood supply.

And the reason it's important to recognize this and to communicate it consistently across the world is so we can understand how common these conditions are. We can develop better treatments to try and improve outcomes for those that have less common causes of a heart attack, rather than providing a one-size-fits-all approach, which we have done historically for many years. And so with that, we've talked about the decades where there wasn't a change, but with this new guidance, will it take effect immediately? It takes effect immediately.

Absolutely right. It's been launched. There are four simultaneous documents representing all the major societies in the world, but I need your help. and support from our journalists across the world to help make sure this message reaches all the hospitals and those involved in the diagnosis. We are going to launch a campaign to try and identify local champions

and adopt this as rapidly as we can around the world. And I think sometimes when we hear the stories of people who have undergone this, particularly women, it can illustrate it as well, of course, so well. So let me bring Alison in here. You suffered what was called a scad, Alison, a type of heart attack caused by a spontaneous coronary artery dissection. Can you tell me what happened to you, what it felt like? Yes, thank you for having me.

So I was just with a friend having a coffee. I started to feel a little bit unwell, a little bit of pain in my chest. Went home, the pain got worse. It moved to my arm, into my jaw. and I just didn't feel quite right. So I rang 1-1-1 and they sent an ambulance straight away. And within an hour, I'd been blue-lighted to the hospital straight into the cat lab. And I was having an angioplasty.

And an angioplasty, will I go back to you, Nick, there for a second? What is that exactly? Yeah, so one of the reasons getting the diagnosis of heart attack right is so important. important and why we have to try and make the diagnosis as early as possible is that we can make a substantial difference by opening up the artery as soon as possible. And we do that by passing a very small tube up to the heart that allows us to inject a little dye to see exactly where the blockage is or what the abnormality is and then we can stretch open that narrowing with a little balloon and that's what angioplasty is.

that immediately relieves the pain and stops the injury to the heart and makes a big difference to survival. Yes. Now, let's talk about time. Let me come back to you, Alison. I understand that you had a paramedic who was actually well-versed in this and kind of had a recognition where others might not have had that awareness. That's right. Very luckily for me, the paramedic had dealt with a scad previously. he knew something wasn't quite right with the ECG that they'd done. So he ran straight through to the hospital and spoke to cardiology. And only due to that was the fact that I got treatment so quickly. Other people have not been so lucky. And that can mean the difference between further heart damage and getting the right treatment and the right care quickly.

What age were you, Alison, when this happened? I was 51 when I had my SCAD. And did you have any history of heart disease, you or your family? No, nothing. And because SCAD has no known condition to cause it, so it's not related to high cholesterol, high blood pressure, stress, anything like that, it can come and come on at any time and happen with no known cause. I mean, I was struck Nick by Alison describing their pain in her chest, pain in her arm went up to her jaw.

They might be things that I would traditionally think of with a heart attack. Are they the symptoms? Is that what people are looking for? Is it the same symptoms, I suppose, even if it's a different sort of heart attack? This is really important. It is exactly the same symptoms. And what Alison describes are the classical symptoms of a heart attack. And for many years, we, I think, have implied for a variety of reasons that women are less likely to experience typical symptoms. But actually, the research that's been conducted by the British Heart Foundation in recent years,

when we've used equal criteria, sex-specific criteria for the diagnosis, recognize that actually men and women have exactly the same presentation with classical symptoms. But actually, women are better at describing their symptoms. So they also describe other features in a way that men find it difficult to. It's my interpretation of this. So yes, we're looking irrespective of whether it's a tear, a scad or a clot. The symptoms are generally the same. And therefore, we should be making sure that everyone's aware of those symptoms.

Irrespective what the Nilein causes. Also coming back to the time issue, Alison described there, the paramedic who jumped into action immediately. What are we talking about timescale-wise? What difference does it make, one hour, two hours, three hours? Well, the old adage has always been minutes, mean muscle. And we've had a very high priority across the UK to recognise the most serious types of heart attacks as soon as possible.

So like Alison experience, many centres around the UK, the diagnosis can be made in your living room. And that's why we encourage people who think that having a heart attack to phone a paramedic rather than make their way directly to hospital themselves, because that electrical test of the heart can give us the first sign, and that can allow patients to be transferred directly to a hospital that will be able to support immediate diagnosis and immediate treatment, and our target is to try and achieve that within two hours of the call. So we are up 24-7 trying our best to open these arteries as soon as we can. So if somebody has symptoms,

they should call 999. Is that what you're saying? Absolutely. If you think you're having a heart sack and have those symptoms that Alison describes, it is by far the most effective way of guaranteeing a rapid diagnosis and early treatment. And we do encourage people to do that rather than to make their own way to an emergency department. Okay, that's really good information as well. Alison, I'm just wondering for you, a woman who had no history of heart disease, this happened, something so dramatic, you're a young woman. there must be quite a bit to process.

Yes, I've got to admit it was very traumatic. Not knowing what caused it was a big issue and that tends to be the same for a lot of SCAD patients and that caused a lot of issues going forward with my recovery. A lot of SCAD patients have counselling. It's classed as a form of... PTSD. Oh really? With the trauma that you go through, so treatment for that.

And an ongoing support is what SCAD patients need. You know, we've got the SCAD UK-Iland group, which are amazing. We've got Professor Adlam, who is the SCAD expert. And other than that, it seems to be lacking in support for SCB patients. Really interesting. I'm so glad that you are well now, Alison, and able to speak to us and raise awareness in that way. But Nick, it is really interesting. We're talking about the lead-up to a heart attack and recognising it in the moment. But Alison is bringing up that issue of afterwards and aftercare. I think it's really important. And I think the work that's been done by Professor Adelam and that group is really important to help raise awareness.

What I'm hoping is that this new definition is going to make that standard across the world, that we don't just communicate to people that they've had a heart attack, we explain to them exactly what's caused it as part of the way we diagnose and communicate. And that will reduce uncertainty. It will help understanding for people who have experienced a heart attack, their relatives, their GPs, it will also, I think, create the foundation for more research into this condition. Because if we suddenly start to understand across the world how common this is, then it will help us, I think, secure funding and support from organisations like the British Heart Foundation

into more effective treatment pathways. But equally important, by explaining what the cause is, it really alters how you think about the diagnosis. You're not on a statin for life. You don't need to take necessarily all the blood thinners and it's not something that necessarily was caused by an unhealthy lifestyle. And I think that's really important for people to understand after the diagnosis. Really interesting. Professor Nick Mills, thank you for joining us this morning and to Alison Lawson. We wish you all the best. Thanks very much for coming on the program. I want to turn next to a woman who's just come into my studio, the singer-songwriter and actress, Natalie Imbrulia.

Of course, she first hit our screens in the 90s, the scenes in the screens, playing the role of Beth Brennan in the Australian Soap Neighbours. She moved to the UK. Her 1997 debut single, Torn, became a worldwide hit. It was listed in the 50 best songs of the 90s by Rolling Stone. It is a great song, Natalie. How do you feel when you hear it? Happy, I was just dancing in my time.

Yeah, I got a nice little chair dance. It brings me back, though, I have to say. exactly to that time when it was just playing everywhere and many people singing it late at night as well. But of course, you have received Grammy nominations, Brit Awards, sold more than 10 million albums. This year, Ginging with Tom Jones, guest performer with Olivia Rodrigo.

Your latest album, Algorizum, is out later this week. So it's release week. What does it feel like for you? And you're so welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. I'm just really, really thrilled to be putting out this album. It's been getting an incredible response.

It's my first album as an independent artist. So I funded it myself. I co-wrote every song. I worked with incredible collaborators. I co-produced it. And I've even been making the videos on my iPhone. You know, I was just watching your video this morning for the title track for our Algo rhythm.

And I was thinking it's hypnotic. It's almost like I'm scrolling on my phone. at high speed, a little bit dystopian as well, I think. And I was looking at some of the lyrics. I mean, let's start with I am my algorithm. What are you thinking with that? It's actually, are you my algorithm? And Spotify guesses the lyrics.

So we're trying to get that change. But it's, are you my algorithm? And that song is about my addiction to doom scrolling very late at night. And so the song is a little bit tongue in cheek. and but opening the conversation about, you know, are you in charge of the algorithm? Does the algorithm lead you? Like, whether it's in your life, in your personal self or on your phone, because I haven't changed any of my settings and I just follow it down rabbit holes that I shouldn't.

Because rabbit holes are in there. There was a lot, actually, that that struck me. Like, how can you be in the zone when you're always on the telephone? You have like these images of people, which we see. every day, get on a bus or wherever you are in the doctor's waiting room, people are just kind of zoned out and zoned into their phone. I'm too lazy lately to do people. And that struck me that line as well because we have the story this morning

about young people being lonely and not having close friends, for example. And it's kind of, I suppose, a reflection of these times we're living in. 100%. And I think because I'm such a victim of it, I wanted to open the conversation for my own medicine to go, you know, you can actually change the settings. You can put the phone outside of your room. And just to remind people, you know, you do have a say in the algorithm. You don't have to follow it blindly.

So I just, for my own self, want to be better with my time on the phone and the dark places it takes me. I think, you know, you can type in cute kittens and that will come up on your phone. So you can actually affect the algorithm. It's like if you eat good food, you're changing the algorithm of your body but we just don't do it, we get lazy and we have a little

kind of twisted fascination with the dark side so sometimes, well not all of us but I do, maybe that's the artist in me but I'll see something like oh I shouldn't click on that on my phone and I'll click on it what is that, you know? So I think it's just interesting to be aware of our behaviours.

I found the video really because you have it kind of at fast speed, shall we say, going through and there's one of Times Square for example with your image up there but of course many people do that now? Like that I've kind of become used to influencers being able to put their picture up on Times Square and that is a thing. That video, shout out to Dan Kadan. That video is AI. You see? So yeah, the photographs that were from a rank and shoot that I did and we used AI for that video. So I wanted to experiment a little bit with how I could use that medium. I haven't used it with my music or my songwriting. But I wanted to explain. I wanted to experiment. experiment with that because my first video is animation and the people that I was using were using it anyway. And so I wanted to try and understand a little bit. And so there's like 15 second segments and you have to learn how to prompt it to have the character or the thread through for the whole video. So shout out to Dan Kadan because he did a phenomenal job on that.

Algorithm is the song if you want to take a look at the video what we're speaking about. But you know, I was thinking as well, it's so off the moment. like it could be pulled from the headlines, let's say, with some of the lyrics that are there and also the images that are there. But looking back, then I was thinking with Torn, there you were standing with your little hoodie. You know what I mean?

In that video, I suppose, quite sparse or quite bare. And your thoughts, looking back on the music industry, you're a woman in your 50s now and you've seen it all, I would imagine. Yeah, I think I've been really lucky to have had so much success on the first single I ever released. I think I lived through a different era of the music industry

where there was a lot of money and it was a lot more fun being in a, walking into my record label. I think slowly over time with streaming, things have turned much more like accountants where they have to prioritize who's getting the most streams, who's making the most money. And, you know, they're a business.

So I'm not even saying that as a negative, but for an artist, things have changed. quite dramatically. So I'm trying to learn from the next generation how they're doing things. And I don't see anything as a negative. It's just, you know, it's painful for us to let go of things. But I think we have to learn to embrace how things change. I mean, music is forever. Artists are forever. You can never replace the artistry and the thoughts and the imagination of an artist. And I think it's important to remember that. I think the fact you talked about, you know, financing this yourself, been so involved in every aspect of it.

That is a transformation as well. We're talking a little bit about transformations this morning. I suppose in a new way of doing it. We are going to hear a clip of your new single, Just Drive. But tell me a little bit what people should be listening for. What is this song about? This song is actually about a breakup. This whole album happened at a time coincided with me,

hitting perimenopause and being diagnosed with ADHD. and trying to understand what was happening. So for about a year, I was going, I didn't feel like myself. And I kept seeing this look on people's face. And they looked quite frightened. And I was like, it's happening. Why is everyone looking at me like this?

And so, yes, a lot of the songs are dealing with those issues. And in reference to this song, I had a breakup during that period of time and it was partly because it's bad enough me going through this. I didn't need to watch you watch me go through this. So it's a, it's, It's a sometimes when you love someone, you let them go. And so that's really what the song's about.

And sometimes all that's left to do is not speak, just drive. So that's the... Yes, and having your freedom or their freedom in that way. Driving can solve a lot. Yes. What is it, I wonder? The movement, the motion, the moving, the clear head. I've written songs driving.

I think that's the ADHD. I was trying to rewrite a chorus for a particular song. called Debbie that's on the album and my friends... Oh yes, we need to talk about Debbie. So my friend, I was like, that is a brilliant chorus, but the verse, I had like a Suzanne Vega verse and there was lots of speaking in it

and he's like, I feel like the verse. So I decided I was going to write the verse over the chorus chords in the car. So my friend had my phone and I was driving and I'm able to catch melodies. Either driving or when I'm in a songwriting session, I walk around in circles. but I have to have movement.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something about distracting yourself so you're not focusing too hard on what you're thinking that allows thoughts to wash over you or you process in a different way. It's like when you do yoga or exercise, people often run for their mental health. It's the same thing. I think it creates space for almost like the processing to be done without you getting in the way. Yeah, yeah. I find it in the shower.

Yeah. It's often warm water. I got to wash that, man, right. Exactly. For example. But let us talk about Debbie. It's a song reminding yourself not to be a Debbie Downer, which lots of people will be familiar with Debbie Downer. I think it'll probably start on Saturday Night Live, like the woman who often sees the downside of everything. So I'm Debbie. Nice to meet you. Really? It's like a lullaby to myself. It's a song that's like telling myself it's going to be okay and don't look back, look forward.

I think I was going through really tough time with my mental health. And sometimes songwriting is my form of therapy and it was my way of kind of, yeah, I mean, I didn't literally sleep in my car. That's how the song starts. Just about, you know, your time is coming. Your time is coming. Sometimes you, in your darkest moments, all you can do is just like look forward and not look back. And that's what it's about. Don't be a Debbie Downer.

Don't be there. Well, let us talk about, I suppose, maybe more visceral reactions, anger, rage. The track who dimmed the lights can be full of both. And it is about perimenopause, I understand. And you want to speak out about it. That's right. And that song was very much inspired by Bonnever and Taylor Swift's album Folklore. Well, it's Taylor's album, but they did a collaboration together,

and there's a song on there that really inspired it. So listening to the song, for all the men out there, it doesn't say the word perimenopause. You're not going to listen to it and be... But it's who dimmed the lights, who stole the sound. And it's all about, you know, something's been taken away from me. And I had a glimmer of shame when I first hit perimenopause. And I was quite horrified by that.

And I just thought, where's that shame coming from? Well, I was just about to ask you, where do you think it came from? Well, people hush you. It's something that could represent for a woman, the end of being able to bear children. So we have all these attachments, some that have been put on us by society. patriarchal society, you know. So I think it's happened over time, but change doesn't happen until people like Davina McCall

opened that door. And she was someone who, I got a lot of information from watching her documentary. But I was horrified that I even had a glimmer of shame. And I'm quite rebellious in that sense where I was like, I'm going to speak about it. And I didn't want it to be something. I had certain women hush me

if I tried to talk about it in front of a man And I thought, you know, this is a mental health issue. This is not something every single woman goes through this, possibly for 12 years. So it's not a short-term thing. It's not about menopause. But perimenopause is the 12 years before menopause that or 30 symptoms can happen. It's really interesting that we are living in this time, going through it at the time that it is beginning to be spoken about for the first time. Yes.

That is also quite transformational. You know, I was asking listeners this morning about how they feel about this time of year, you know, the first of September. For a load of articles this morning, you know, the autumn reset. Here's one, for example. I love the back-to-school feeling on the first of September and love to take it as a reset from a lot of the fun of the summer. Hunker down, be focused and diligent with exercise, be organized in the lead up to Christmas. It helps me stay motivated. And I love living in a country that is seasons and change every few months gives me something to focus on for a few months.

Others might say it's just putting more pressure on women to some of the headlines were like lose the excess holiday pounds, get your house under control. But I want to come to your song Endgame because that's about chasing perfection to the point of possibly compromising your own happiness. I think end game for me was we tell ourselves for our lack of self-care, I'm doing this for my son. I'm doing this for my daughter. I'm doing this, you know, to make a better life. And we're on this hamster wheel. And we don't look up at the sky. We don't appreciate nature.

We don't, we're not in the present moment. And I remember writing that song and I went outside to take a break. And I came back into the guides. And I was working with David Sneddon and a new Pilar, shout out to them. And I walked back in the room and I'm like, guys, what's the end game? That's what this song's about. And it's like, why, you know, if you miss the present moment, there is no end game. The end game is now. So it's just that thing of reminding yourself,

when you're telling yourself, I'll take care of myself later. You know, that's really not what life's about. So it's just reminding myself that there's not really a justification to say, I'm doing this for my son or whatever, because really taking care of yourself is the most important thing. And sometimes I forget that. So lovely to have you in, Natalie, in Brulia. I want to let people know your album algorithm is released this Friday, the 4th of September, forgive me. The single Just Drive is out now. I hope you have a brilliant week.

And thank you so much for coming in and sharing some thoughts about the album. Thank you for having me. Natalie and Brulia, 844. If you'd like to get in touch with this morning because we talk about resets and transformation, is that something you're taking to heart on the 1st of September? Or is it, are you going to think like Natalie? Think about end game exactly why are you doing it?

Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows, like evil genius, good bad billionaire, and you're dead to me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple. Podcasts, you can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Now, I want to turn to another story. Between 1949 and 1976, an estimated 250,000 unmarried women and girls were forced to give up their babies for adoption in post-war Britain through a system involving the state,

social workers and religious organisations. There is a landmark BBC documentary called Stolen Babies. And it tells the story of those women and the lasting impact off those forced separations. In July, the Prime Minister at the time, Sir Keir Starrmer, issued a formal apology. Telling the mothers, the shame is not yours, the shame is ours. Well, joining me now is Judy Baker. Her story features in Stolen Babies. She was an active and integral campaigner for that government apology. And she joins me now.

Great to have you with us, Judy. Thanks so much for joining me this morning. Good morning, thank you. Now, I watch Stolen Babies, very affected by it. to say, watching that documentary and so sad, so many of the stories of what women experienced. I want to turn to your story, Judy. You gave birth two days before your 19th birthday. This was in 1968, so very recent.

What were you most worried about when you found out you were pregnant? Telling my parents what was going to happen. And I was very scared because I was... Not like an 18-year-old nowadays. I was still young and quite naive, living at home with my parents, working, yes. But it was a shock. I mean, I didn't believe it for quite a long time.

I couldn't believe that that was what was happening. But, yeah, it's a... I suppose the thing is that right from the word, go, it was a trauma. It was a traumatic experience. Did anyone... sit down with you or talk about potential choices after you became pregnant? The potential choice was adoption. That was the only choice that was offered to me.

A social worker at the hospital where I went to have a conversation was, her immediate words to me, something like, don't worry, dear, this isn't a problem, we can make it go away. you can have the baby adopted. So that was the first thing that anybody said and there were never any other choices given to me. There were also moral welfare workers that you encountered. Mani won't be familiar with even that particular title or a job. Well, in the case of my moral welfare worker,

she was a spinster lady, who wouldn't have a clue about any of the things that we were going through, I imagine. And it was, she had an office job. So the moral welfare society sat in judgment on us, but were manned by, well, in my particular go, somebody who was doing an office job. There was no real feel for it, no empathy, no sympathy really.

It was just a, well, you know, I've likened it many times to a machine, the Great Adoption Machine. Yes. Which very much comes across, I think, in the documentary as well of this industry or conveyor belt and I hate to use those very inhumane terms,

but I'm using them from what the women have said in the documentary. Judy, what happened to you and your life after you had to hand your baby daughter? her over. It was just after a number of weeks, right? Yes, I had her for seven weeks. And when she went, I tried to just get back to normal life because that was what I was told would happen to me that we would both my baby and I would have a happy life

and that I would go on to, you know, marry and have other children and that didn't happen. and I went back to work. I'd always worked, went back to work, and then I had the opportunity to go and work in Spain and I went and lived there for four years and with hindsight, I see now that was away from escaping because nobody there knew anything about me or my circumstances.

I know that you never believed you had any right to search for your daughter or disrupt, and I'll put this in inverted commas, the wonderful life that you expected her to have. In the year 2000, you did get a letter that she wanted contact. You've now then been reunited with your daughter for 26 years. But could you tell us the impact of that time apart and what it has had on your relationship?

I know you say it's not the simple story that some people want to think of a reunification. Yeah, absolutely. I'd like to stress that it's not what you see on the television. It's not hearts and flowers and you skip off into the sunset holding hands. It's very complex because for the mother, I lost a baby. She continued in my mind all over those years to be a baby. When I met her again, I was expecting her to be a baby. It's extraordinary. It's a mind game. and she had no, I had a memory of her because I was grown and she was a baby, she had no memory of me other than this invisible cord, if you like, that joins you. And she was an adult with other parents, had been brought up with love and care. And it was almost like a chasm between us. So initially there was this great, love.

affair going between us because we couldn't believe how great it was to find somebody for me that I'd, you know, I'd been holding in my memory for years and years. For her, somebody who actually looked like her, spoke like her, felt familiar. But with this, so we have this familiarity, but we have this great chasm in between those 32 years. How do we? we make up for that? How do we, you know, I didn't know the most simple things. Did she take sugar in her coffee? Did she like Winnie the Pooh? I didn't know any of that. And I wanted to be her mother, but she had another mother and she has loyalty to that mother. Of course she does. They're the parents who brought her up. So you're trying to negotiate all of that and you're

treading on eggshells constantly. Am I saying the right thing? Is this the wrong thing? It's just so complex. And at times it's overwhelming, completely overwhelming. And you need to just draw back, draw a breath. You need support. I think the line might have just frozen for one moment.

Let me see if we can just re-establish that as I'm speaking to, to Judy Baker, her story features in stolen babies. She was an active and integral campaigner for the government apology that came on the 2nd of July this year with the former Prime Minister, Kirstarmer. Her story is so compelling. It's also, there's a number of women that are featured in stolen babies. I was watching the documentary yesterday and found it very affecting.

And Judy was one of the women who gave evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights that looked at the issue of unmarried mothers and also how they were treated really during the 50s, the 60s and the 70s in the UK. We've heard these stories in other countries, but not in Britain. We're just trying to reconnect.

I will tell you that Stolen Babies is available to watch now on the BBC Eye player. It will also be shown on BBC 2 on Wednesday. night, that's at 9pm. Viewers in Scotland can watch it on BBC Scotland channel tomorrow night at 9pm. And I'm just going to see if

we are reconnected. I think we're having a little bit of issues, just reconnecting. Oh, we do have Judy back. That's wonderful. Judy, let me bring you back in here. I was just, I'm glad we were able to reconnect with you. I think just the technology gave up on us there for a moment. But you were speaking

so poignantly about that chasm that is there. And you said, you know, at times you need to draw back, you need to draw breath when it all becomes too much. Yeah. And I think it's important to talk about that and the after effects of these forced adoptions. I want to turn to a few lines of evidence that you gave at the UK Parliament's Joint Committee on Human Rights.

I was so struck by this. You said, quite irrationally, adoption is one of the few experiences in life where society expects everyone involved to be grateful. Can you tell me a little bit more about how that is? Yeah, sure. So the mother, me, was expected to be grateful for not having to have the stigma of being an unmarried mother. The child was expected by society to be grateful because they had been saved from being. illegitimate and had been raised given to a family that would have all the

luxuries or the benefits that an unmarried mother couldn't offer. And the adoptive parents were expected to be grateful to be able to have a child to raise. So there's this whole misconception that we should all be grateful for this experience. I mean, how can I be grateful for losing my child? How can my child be grateful for losing me for being given to strangers to raise? How can the adopted parents be grateful

that they couldn't have a child of their own so they had to have somebody else's? It's a ridiculous way of looking at it. At the heart of every adoption is loss for everybody concerned. The child loses its parentage, it's in some cases ethnicity, its wider family. The mother loses the child that she's cherished

and the adoptive parents lose the child that they never had of their own. So it's all about loss. I understand. It is incredibly moving. I want to thank Judy Baker for speaking to us. She was one of the integral women to achieve an apology from the government after many, many years. You can, as I mentioned, watch it on BBC Eye Player right now. It's called Stolen Babies and tomorrow night.

Oh, sorry, Wednesday. Yeah, tomorrow night, the bank holiday Monday making me confused. On BBC 2 on Wednesday night, tomorrow night at 9pm. Thanks so much to Judy for sharing her story. 8444-844. if you'd like to get in touch. One message coming in on the subject of the September reset. I hate this next four months.

I spend nine months of the year waiting for spring, so I see this time as the long slog to Christmas. New beginning start in the new year when the days start to get lighter. So says Karen, so very much at odds with the last person who got in touch. If you'd like to get in touch, you can do so in all the usual ways. Now, to a woman who has sold over six million books,

she's back with her 26th, a dark psychological thriller about love, obsession and murder. Adele Parks, welcome. Hello, how lovely to be here. So your new book is Eyes on You. Give us a little bit off the premise. Yeah, okay, so it's the story of a girl, a teenage girl, that when she's 15, she witnesses her father murder his mistress.

This is obviously, you know, ridiculously traumatic. We meet her when she's 32. Her testimony sent her father down. So she's lived with that. Her mom and her brother have sort of grown up in the shadow of this incredible crime that was covered very heavily in the media. We meet her when she's 32. She's emotionally closed down Cal Suprize after, you know, that start in life.

So, but everything's coming back to the foreground for her because her father is up for parole. He's done 17 of his 25 years. So she is churned up. And then she meets someone and this is the first time she's ever allowed somebody into her world. And she falls hook, line and sinker. Arguably she falls in love the way a 15 year old would rather than a 32 year old would. Because she's, you know, that theory that people sort of get stuck in their development. If they're arrested development.

Yeah, if they become super famous at 17, they stay at sort of 17 year old. Well, she became infamous at 15 and she sort of stayed in that. She hasn't developed relationships, friendships, parental relationships to move her on to a sexual proper relationship, romantic relationship. So she falls for this guy, hook, line and sinker. And I look at the distinction between obsession and love. He seems to reciprocate. this emotion, but who knows, because it's one of my books. Exactly. So we've got some twisty, turny, plots with it.

But the first thing that I was struck by, and I know you were going to call it at one point the murderer's daughter. Yes. Why did you want to think about or explore the family of the perpetrator instead of the victim? Because I think she is a victim. You know, she is a victim. she is associated with this monster and her life is formed by, you know, what society has decided is, you know, he's guilty, he's gone to prison. And she can't escape that.

Obviously, the woman who's been murdered is the biggest victim in all of this, but there are other people. And I was watching a news program and it was the thing that's horribly familiar to us where a family were coming out of the courtroom and they were on the stage. steps and they were saying, well, justice has been served because their loved ones, killer, had been sent down. And I thought, well, A, it hasn't because, you know, you can't bring a back. They can't bring a back. But there was sort of people skulking around in the background. I'm sure there were just ordinary people who'd been in and out of the court. But in my imagination, I thought, imagine if you were the person related to the perpetrator, to the monster, how dreadful is that? You must carry some guilt. You must carry shame.

how do you get on with your own life? Also, who do you trust again? In the book, Amy has a really good relationship with a dad. He seems like a good dad. He knows the pop group she's into. He knows that she doesn't like going to pee when she's on a period. And he actually lets her scyve off school. Which, no spoilers.

But yeah, probably a bad move on his part. But, you know, great for her. But let me turn to that aspect off at Adele because it's fair to say, Amy, is a woman, a girl at the time, let down by her father. That might be something that many readers can relate to, even if not in this extreme, a way, hopefully. Correct.

Because, I mean, this is an extreme way. But I think there's some very interesting cliches. We're handed, you know, are you a daddy's girl or aren't you a daddy's girl? That, and that's why I didn't want the book called The Murderer's Daughter. I don't think we should be defined by the relationships we have with our father or indeed our mother. But we often are. And there's a lot of psychology behind that, you know, that the truth is we genuinely often are. Because the father is the first man child trusts, you know, male or female.

It is the first man they trust. So it is an important role. Being a parent of any kind is an important role. But because this betrayal is so huge and so damaging. she literally cannot recover. She doesn't know how to get on with her life normally. I should let people know that we have a series coming up on Women's Hour on just this topic, Daddy Issues.

So listen out for that from next Monday. I can't wait to listen to it. But people do say, you know, your father is the first man that you love, the first hand that you hold. People sometimes say you marry your father, do you or don't you. That's often a debate. It's rich ground most definitely. What would you say then that

that I suppose the letting down or the sadness, the disappointment that Amy has over her father then play out in terms of dating? Dating is too strong a word, I think, perhaps hookups is in there? She's not good at dating, is she? The only telephone number she gives out when she's asked for a telephone number and things. She doesn't give out her telephone number.

She gives the number to the code of the toilets in the restaurant she works at and she will hook up with someone there and that's it. I think anyone reading that realizes this woman is pretty dysfunctional. That is not the way we should approach sex loving relationships. In the restaurant Oodles of Noodles, which I did like that name to say. I did have fun with that. Yeah. Let us turn to this 26 books.

You're effectively writing a book a year. Yes. How? The same way as you turn up to your job every day. Okay, fair enough, too-shay, my friend. You know, I think, first of all, I love it. I wanted to be a writer since I was a little girl. I feel really privileged that I am a writer.

I think it's the most soothing, you know, wonderful process for me in particular. You know, I'm sure it's not for everybody, but for me, I feel calmest when I'm writing. And it's fantastic for me. So I don't think it's a chore or it's difficult. I have been lucky enough that I have had incredible publishing teams and support throughout that 26 years. I've never been out of contract. I've been incredibly lucky that readers have come with me when I've changed genre. And I think that has been a really important part of my career.

So I started in, I would say romances, but they're sort of, they always had like a very difficult heroine in the centre of the romance who had gone through some level of trauma. So I suppose I was just warming up to psychological thrillers. But I've done that. I've done historical books and now I'm writing family dramas or psychological thrillers. And that constant evolving has really helped me. I've not got bored. So the constant evolving, I understand that.

But as you kind of put it in terms of my broadcasting, you're only as good as your last show, I would often say. So you're only as good as your last book, some might say. Do you feel a pressure for each book to be better than the last? I mean, is that achievable? I genuinely feel a pressure. I don't suppose I can judge if it's achievable. I suspect that's for other people to judge. I genuinely think there are elements of different books.

I think this is better than the last one because. For instance, I think the writing and this one is better than others. That is my because in this situation. Sometimes I think it's the plot. Sometimes I think it's because it's something that's never been investigated before. So it depends on what you think judges a great book, I suppose. But yeah, that is my aim to get better each time. I think it's a really peculiar job because I think if I'd been doing anything else for 26 years

and being acknowledged as a success at it and doing very well, I would be incredibly, I'd be okay by now, wouldn't I? I'd be being senior, I'd be getting a particular salary, you know, and everything would be fine. And I'd be doing a slightly different version of whatever I started out 26 years ago. That is not the case as a writer. Fundamentally, I'm doing the same thing. I'm writing a book and I'm promoting that book. And that is my job and will always be my job.

So that is something writers have to come to terms with and have to understand that that is the case. And yes, I very much believe you are, I hope, I will, even through this conversation, I will attract new readers today that have never heard of me and they will suddenly go on then I'll give that a go. And that will be their first time. So it's no good saying, yeah, you'd have liked my book five years ago. I was great five years ago. This will be my one chance with those new people. I was reading a Q&A that you did in the Guardian with Rosanna Green Street that I have also done. It's great fun. They're wonderful. Yeah, she gets you to think on your feet. But you deplore laziness in others. I do. Only because I think it's such a waste. I can't stand waste. I can't stand waste of resources. I can't stand waste of time. That's my biggest waste of time. Because we all only get one life. Please crack on and use it to the best of your ability. So it's not that I'm going, oh, you're lazy, you know, you're in my way. It's more, what a shame for you that you are not grabbing life with two hands. Crack on. So grabbing life with two hands for you is definitely in your writing room, writing these books.

What else? Also, obviously, meeting readers and being out there is super important to me. I like walking. I like swimming. I like yoga. Those are all the things to sort of keep me healthy and fit. You know, because I'm living to 104 people. That is the aim.

And I'm publicly saying it because I like a target. And I think if I keep saying it, I feel there will be a target. That would be great. I love going out for dinner and chatting to friends. I love, you know, I think I'm really normal in that aspect, that whole sort of round a table, having, you know, great food, having a chat. That's the best evening for me. So lovely having you in.

So lovely being in. Eyes on you by Adele Park, as we were mentioning. Her 26th book is out now. And thanks for all your messages coming in as well today, 84844. I'm a Debbie, says one. Defo, not a downer, just saying currently splashing paint around and very happy. Glad to hear us. Thanks for spending some of your time with us this morning. Tomorrow I'll be speaking to young online content creator Bella Roberts about living with Limpodema, dating with a visible condition and the challenges of dealing with online hate. See you then. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Parents in a young child today means navigating a whirlwind of advice, opinions and relentless information. Tell me about it, Katie, but the good news is CBB's parenting download is here to take the edge off.

Join me, Katie Thistleton, Radio One presenter and new mum. And me, Governor B, Mobo Award winning rapper and Dad of Two, as we discover and unpack what it really means to be a parent. From the art of negotiation to tips on dealing with parental anxiety. Each episode, we're joined by well-known parents and trusted professionals to share their own experiences. People say you never know until you have your own, but no one ever really gets into. what that means. And it's very true. Someone, when I was on my first walk with him alone in the pram, someone went, press green, I went yeah, he went, congratulations, went, cheers. And he went, welcome to the truth club. I went, what do you mean? You went, you'll find out soon enough.

And to provide useful tools and advice to tackle the daily challenges that come with parenting, offering honest conversations and expert insight that can really help. The biggest thing that I've noticed since I became a negotiator is we don't listen. We're really good at pretending we listen and we do this, don't we? So our young people in our life especially, talking away. You've asked them a question. They're answering the question, and you're like this,

mm-hmm, mm-hmm, because you're not really interested because you're already thinking about what's next. We've learned so much already, so whether you're a first-time parent, you've got multiple kids, you're a carer or a grandparent, this podcast is for you. Search for CBB's parents in download

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