Woman's Hour - Naz Shah, 'Alpine divorce', Sexism at football matches

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

Naz Shah has been the MP for Bradford West since 2015, after a battle with George Galloway’s Respect Party, but her personal journey into politics is remarkable. Naz was born in Bradford but sent to Pakistan at the age of 12, to escape the attentions of her mother’s abuser. Then when she was 20 her mother was convicted of his murder. For years Naz looked after her younger siblings, while campaigning alongside Southall Black Sisters for her mother’s release and was instrumental in achieving a reduction in her mother’s jail term. She joins presenter Kylie Pentelow to discuss her story as she publishes her memoir Honoured: Survival, Strength and My Path to Politics.Have you heard about the ‘alpine divorce’ trend? Women on social media are describing it as an extreme style of breakup in which a man leaves his partner stranded during a hike or outdoor adventure. Jo Hemmings, a Behavioural Psychologist and Relationship Counsellor, and broadcaster and author Mary-Ann Ochota discuss this troubling new relationship trend and how women can feel safe while navigating the outdoors.The Anti-discimination charity Kick it Out has received 131 reports of sexist incidents at football matches from the start of the men's season until the end of February this year. That's more than double than for the same period last season, with comments to female fans including, 'What do you know about football? You should be in the kitchen getting your husband's tea." We discuss why this sexism is increasing and what can be done about it with BBC Sport senior journalist Sally Freedman, who's written a book about her expereinces, and Sarah Collins, head of Safeguarding at Stockport County Football Club. In the new play, John Proctor is the Villain, high school girls in small town America are studying The Crucible, Arthur Miller's allegorical portrayal of the Salem witch trials. The play takes place just as the #MeToo movement catches fire, and comes close to home. As the Broadway hit premieres in the UK at London's Royal Court Theatre, playwright Kimberly Belflower and director Danya Taymor join Kylie to discuss viewing Miller's classic through a #MeToo lens. Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Their company's success helped build a nation. The company is such a big part of Korea's economy. But who are the family behind one of the world's tech giants? The major corporate empire that we now know today. Samsung. Inheritance Samsung from the BBC World Service explores the real-life dramas of the Lee family. There's a succession-style drama underneath of all this.

Inheritance, Samsung. Listen on BBC.com. the BBC app or wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower. Well, we've got six new episodes for you over the coming weeks that will give you,

practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the program. Thanks for your company this morning.

There's plenty to come in the next hour. We'll be hearing the remarkable life story of Nas Shah. She's a Labour MP who is known for talking passionately about her Bradford community. But what you may not know is that her mother was jailed for the murder of her abuser, leaving Nas to care for her two young siblings. She's just written her memoir and she'll join me to talk about why she chose to tell her story. Also, have you heard of Alpine divorce? It's where a partner abandons their wife or girlfriend in the wilderness.

Now, although it's a very old term, it's become current with social media posts from women sharing their experiences. For many, this would mean the end of a relationship, a red flag, if you like, that a person won't be there for you when the going inevitably gets tough. So we want to hear from you about your red flags. Maybe something happened on a first date that made you think that a person wasn't for you or the final straw in a longer-term relationship. Do get in touch. You can text the programme. The number is 84844.

On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website too. Or send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 0300-100-444. We'll also hear this morning why reports of sexist incidents at football matches. have more than doubled so far this season. That's according to an anti-discrimination charity. Now, one woman was told she shouldn't be at the match,

but wait for the cliche at home cooking the dinner. We'll explore what clubs can do to ensure women feel safer at matches. Again, we'd really like to hear from you on this. Do get in touch if you have any experience or indeed solutions. That text number is 84844 and WhatsApp is 0-3-700-100-444. And it's been a Broadway hit. Now it's come to the UK. John Proctor is the villain,

explores the Me Too movement through the eyes of teenage girls who are studying Arthur Miller's play, The Crucible. I'll be speaking to the director and writer behind it. But first, joining me in the studio now is Nas Shah, who's been the MP for Bradford West since 2015, when she famously won the seat from George Galloway of the Respect Party in the general election.

But her personal story of how she got there and what she's had to overcome is remarkable. And it's the subject of her new memoir, Honoured, Survival, Strength and My Path to Politics. Now, born in Bradford, Nas was sent to Pakistan at the age of 12 to escape the attentions of her mother's abuser. But when she was 20, her mother was convicted of the murder of that abuser. She was left to look after her youngest siblings while campaigning alongside the South or Black Sisters for her. her mother's release. And she was instrumental in achieving a reduction in her mother's tariff. Naz, welcome to Woman's Hour. Morning.

It is a truly incredible story and a difficult read at times to hear what you've been through. So let's just start at the beginning. So you grew up in Bradford, as I said, younger brother and sister. And you witnessed male violence from a young age, your mum being pulled by her plat, by your father, a relative hit your mother across the face. Your grandfather's advice was hold your tongue and no one will hit you. And your mother later gave you the advice that a woman has to be a mattress for a man. I wonder how all this has shaped you and your clear determination later in life.

Oh, massively. There isn't that you can't divorce the two. You can't, my conditioning has been in a patriarchal way, in a patriarchal back. background, my condition has been watching, you know, having to reconcile the idea of my father who I love dearly, not, you know, beating my mum, who I also love dearly. And then my father's been dead now, I'm over 22 years. And it's, I mean, having my own forced marriage when I went to Pakistan, I was only 15. And the idea that, you know, the reason I've called the book on it is literally because it's women that bear the burden of shame. So my father didn't pick me up for the first nine, ten months

just because I was born a girl, not a boy. So all of it conditions you in how you respond to the world and you have a sense of, inequality, a sense of, injustice, a sense of, and then having to fight for those, fight for the equality for my mum, the legal system, is not geared towards women. It is still unequal.

We still have, I spoke at a parliamentary event only yesterday, which is about trying to find equal justice for women in our legal justice. system. It turned me into the campaign was very much the making of the activist and the person you see before you today. So you can't divorce the two at all. You talked about honour there and the term Isat is talked about an awful lot in the book. Can you just explain to our listeners what that means? Yes, so is that literally translated into honour. And the only way I can describe it to be mainstream audiences if you've watched Bridgeton or if you've watched downtown Abbey and downtown Abbey,

Abby, the opening scenes are very much in the early bit is where a woman is divorced and she's not allowed to be in the same room as a king and she's excommunicated from society and that's what happens in Bridgeton. You know, if you don't behave in a certain way, you bring disrespect, dishonour to your family name. So you're kind of like shunned. That's exactly what it is. Is it or honour is, and this is where it's problematic. It's steeped in misogyny and it's steeped in patriarchy where women are the bearers. and they carry the burden of that shame. And the honour belongs to men. So it's the job of women to not be shameful to protect the honour of men.

And the title honoured for me is about flipping that to say, no, actually women are the ones that should carry honour and not be the bearers of shame. And I think Giselle Pellico has talked in her book about flipping the coin of shame. That's exactly what it is, but I'm just using a different language. I'm just saying we need to flip honour.

That's what I'm trying to do. And the real effect of that was that the whole community when your father left didn't help. No, there were pockets of people who were really brilliant individuals. But by and large, the community shuns you. It's literally you're the person, your husband has left you, even though he's left you for another woman, a 16-year-old neighbor. He's left you, abandoned you whilst you're pregnant with two. two young children.

Your children now have TB. You're now in rented accommodation. You've been sexually exploited. But hey, guess what? It's not his fault. So he can rehabilitate back into society while she's shunned, while she has to reclaim literally claw back that honour by behaving in a way. So it's like, you know, I have to work harder.

As a woman, you have to work harder. As a woman of colour, you have to work even harder. As a woman of religion and cultural differences, you have to work even harder. So the society is stacked against you. So the same application is for a woman who's been seen to be falling. And I remember at the Court of Appeal when it was rejected, the court of appeal was rejected because the judges actually said she had no honour left her salvage because they couldn't understand the concept of honour,

the concept of how that it's literally embryonic. So to me, I say my fight started within the womb because it was my father's biology that was responsible for my gender, yet it was my father that didn't pick me up and my mother was blamed for giving birth to a girl. So it was embryonic for me. It's a culture that one of my dear friends, Simon Rastlin from the Badford Literature Festival,

describes it as the fish who swim in water, the water is that culture, but they don't know of a culture, but that is what they're surrounded by. And that's where patriarchy, misogyny, that's where it exists in that kind of societal structures. I want to talk about your mum because she really does come across as an amazingly strong woman in the face of adversity. She didn't speak the language very well, but she managed to get a house and raise you and your siblings.

She never gave up, did she? No, she still got that fire in her. I mean, I met a journalist recently who has a Deli Mirror and she said to me, she interviewed my mum when she was in prison. and she now came and did the interview for me about my book and she said, I see the same spark in your eyes that I saw in your mother back in Holloway prison when I was in my 20s. And that was really interesting to see that, you know,

where do you get that resilience from? Where do you get that fight from? And I think my mum's definitely came from her father because she was the youngest of five siblings. And she was, you know, her father gave her, her spot had spoiled her. And sometimes I think maybe mine's come from my mum. as well, you know, my father in some ways did, you know, when I was younger, used to visit. There's a chapter in the book called Brown Girl in the Ring where he helped, you know, he used to make me dance.

And that wasn't culturally appropriate, you know, and I fell in love with dancing. So there's, there's that, my mum is, if you look at my mum, she's a very hollow woman. So she's got, you know, you can write a book on each chapter of her life of how she came to the UK, how she got married, what happened. and the prison and the abuse and everything else. But there's also a love about her because she's living it, reliving her life through my children now and her, my sister's children, so my niece's nephews and my kids, you know,

and she doesn't have that constraint, a financial constraint. You know, she can go to, I mean, she loves charity shops. She discovered them while she was in prison. She fell in, she learned English watching Brookside. You know, I think she, I laugh about it now and think she had a crush on Jimmy. in Brookside and she, you know, she knits for England still. So she sits there.

She's now discovered TikTok. She's discovered how to use YouTube and dramas. So she sits there knitting. But you can see that there's an element of her because she's riddled with arthritis. She has, you know, she has steroids and her feet and her arms and what have you. But she wants to get out of the house. And you can see that conditioning of 14 years of being institutionalised. You know, it does take its toll.

Let's talk about how she ended up in prison. In the book you describe how Uncle Naz, a neighbour's nephew, helped her to buy the house that you lived in, he seemed charming, but he was actually raping your mum and sending other men to do the same. You didn't know the true extent of what was happening to your mother until years later. Have you ever discussed what happened to your mum with her?

So we discussed it throughout the camera. So when we were doing her, you know, when we put an appeal together, it was a very, very open discussion with the, with Southall Black Sisters of Justice for Women. So those things were discussed. So she knows I'm discussing them. I know she's discussing them. But have we had that discussion? And the truth is no. Because we've been through those discussions in a roundabout way in terms of the appeal having and presenting all that to free judges, you know, doing the campaign to get her tariff reduced in light of all of that. So she's very aware that. We're aware. But like you and I are sat here talking about this. That's not a conversation I've still had with my mother. I just don't think I'm brave enough to have that conversation.

So we know it. We acknowledge it. She acknowledges, I know. I acknowledge she knows. She's had lots and lots of counselling. And just writing this book, you know, brought up real issues for me. And I got diagnosed. I started rewriting in 2023 and I got diagnosed of PTSD in 2024.

So I think, you know, there's something about getting counselling and getting help, but not burdening. I feel like I'm protecting her by not burdening her, and she's probably doing the same. There's still that, there's a chapter in the book where I described the day I left her in prison, and the role reversed. It was like she was looking at me as if to say, get me out of here. The same look in her eyes when she was telling me to go and get the neighbour when I was only five years old to stop my dad beating her. the same look in her eyes when she was sentenced and she was found guilty. You know, all of those looks in her eyes are always,

there's a role reversal happened where I became a parent to her and she became, you know, a child that I had to look after. And there's still some element of that, even in my 50s, of me and her protecting each other. And you just, you don't get away from that. It's ingrained in you. You know, like we protect our kids. It's our natural instinct.

even though she's in her 70s and I'm in my 50s now. She, of course, was happy with you writing this story. Oh, yes, very much so. She was very supportive. She was at the book launch in Bradford. You know, we've talked about it over Ead. She's very, very clear that she wanted a story told. She wanted me to tell my story because she knows her side of it has been told

because it's been through in the 90s with a big campaign. But the survival of the kids and how it affected, you know, how it prison affects women, these are things. So she also has a passion to change things. She also, but she, you know, she's still on life license. She still can't talk about it this publicly. She will never be able to write her own book or talk about her experiences. But I can, you know, and I've been blessed with a platform.

So I want to shift cultures and I want to shift narratives. Let's just explain to our listeners what happened. So Azam died, your mother and you actually were both arrested initially. Azam had been poisoned. Your mother was charged with murder given a tariff of life or 20 years. Of course, that story made front page news.

And you were looking after your siblings. How did you cope with that? So I was 18, my brother and sister, Fulziah was 11, my brother was 13. You just put one foot in front of you. You don't have a plan. There's no grand plan there. We lost the house.

My sister went to Pakistan. My brother went to Pakistan. I was on my own. I tried to kill myself. The first, it was Eid. Eid was always difficult. Finding myself on a, you know, literally on a mattress where the dog slept

because that's the only place I could put my head down. We lost everything. The house sat, my mother, you know, I'd become the noose around my mother's neck that she was abused over, she was exploited over. We lost all of that. And then it was just trying to focus on.

And I think for me it was just, they've got it wrong, she's going to come home, that, you know, the British is just a system, is the best in the world. And that never happened. Then she told the story.

She told why she killed that she'd been abused and why she didn't tell her story because of this concept, again, of Issa and honour. And then when we put that, we know, when we put that to Peel Court, that got rejected. So you were always in fight or flight mode. So you don't have,

you just put one foot in front of the other. There's no plan of how to survive. You just have to survive. You know, when I tried to kill myself and I wasn't successful. and my mum said, well, if you died, what would happen to the kids and what would happen to me? And since then, I've never tried to do it again. I felt suicidal because I'm very acutely aware of my mental health.

You know, I became a Samaritan. But the truth is, you don't have a choice. You have to carry on. And you just, day by day, right? I should say to our listeners that if you're affected by anything you've heard this morning, head to the BBC Actionline website. We can find information and support. We haven't got much longer left, so I do want to get it.

get on to your time in politics. You became an MP when you overturned George Galloway's majority to win back Bradford West of the Labour Party. But then there have, it hasn't all been easy for you being an MP. You apologised in 2016 for sharing anti-Semitic online posts made before you were an MP and you were suspended from the party. Was that a learning experience for you? Oh, huge. There's nothing, there isn't a day where you don't learn. You have to have an attitude towards learning. I mean, the, At that point in 2016, I was suspended. I then, you know, I made, well, I had lots of compassion from people who came to see me, who met me,

I apologise, the EHRC, the internal inquiry, the Home First Select Committee inquiry. And I'm really pleased the only person who came out of that, who'd done it the right way, which was sincerely apologised, was me. And then since then, I've won three more elections. I've had, you know, it's the last election. was very, very difficult because my community was very, very upset with the Labour leadership. And I again resigned my position as shadow minister for knife crime in the home office just because of the issue of Gaza. So, and I held on, you know, I've lost a majority of 28,000 to 700 because of the community who was very angry.

You have said in the past that you're not politically ambitious, but you're ambitious for leadership. I wonder what you mean by that. So I really, really admire people who take positions in cabinet and the prime minister and all our secretary of states. I really admire that. But my leadership for me has to be congruent to who I am. And my leadership for me is about community development, is about taking communities with you.

So my book is a form of me being able to do that and have a conversation is about shifting narratives. And some people, we have different strengths and different skillsets. and mine is embedded in community and working with communities and taking them on a journey. So for me to be able to go back to my community and put something out like I have in Honoured

is about also holding the mirror up to the community but taking the community with you on a journey not throwing the community under the bus and that's to me, that's where I'm extremely ambitious. I am, my ambitious holds, you know, there's no limit for my ambition when it talks about community and when it talks about strengthening community.

because I believe communities have their own solutions. I think people, you know, the divisions that we have right now in politics affect communities, the community cohesion, the society, fabric of society. That's where my leadership and my strengths lie and I want to work to them to bring communities together. Nas Shah, it's been wonderful to speak to you this morning. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And just to say that Naz's book is out now, once again,

if you've been affected by anything that you heard in that interview, you do go to the BBC Action Line website. Now I wanted to let you know that there's a new episode of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life out now and it's all about navigating conversations around infatility. Now for those facing treatments like IVF, the questions, comments, even the silence from people around you can feel overwhelming. And for friends and family who want to help, there's the fear that you'll just simply say the wrong thing. Pregnancy announcements too by friends is something that can often sting. Here's a clip of Nula talking to Kay,

who's currently going through fertility treatment about how pregnancy news can be shared sensitively. People are worried to tell you if they're pregnant, but ultimately, just because I'm sad for me, doesn't mean I'm not happy for you. So it's about being just honest with people. I had a colleague, for example, in work, and we weren't that close,

but she pulled me in a room and told me that she was pregnant. I really respected the fact that she pulled me and had a conversation and told me she was pregnant. I had the same of friends coming and saying, we have some news, it's very sensitive, you might find it hurtful. And instead, I was just delighted for them. For me, it was like a expression of love, really, that they took that consideration. So maybe that's something for people to be aware of as well. That's Nula and Kaye talking in the latest episode of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life,

all about navigating those conversations around infertility with confidence and care. You'll have heard that Nula speaks about her own experience. of IVF in this episode and it is a very moving listen. So do go and check that out. You can find it on the Women's Hour BBC Sounds feed or just search for the Women's Hour Guide to Life on BBC Sounds for that whole series there. There's also links to support for those going through infatility

or miscarriage on the BBC Action Line website. Now, women on social media are calling out a worrying dating trend known as Alpine Divorce. When a man leaves a partner behind during a hike or outdoor adventure, either by striding away or walking off mid-argument. Well, this case follows a recent case in Austria, where a man was convicted of gross negligence, manslaughter, for abandoning his girlfriend during a mountain hike.

The term itself actually comes from an 1893 short story, an Alpine divorce, where a husband plots to kill his wife on a mountain walk. Of course, these are two extreme situations, but as many of the stories being shared online show, Alpine divorce can also serve as a huge red flag as to the health of the relationship and the type of partner that you might be with. Well, joining me to talk about this trend and what women can do to stay safe is behavioural psychologist and relationship counsellor Joe Hemings and broadcaster and author Marianne Ohota who specialises in archaeology and anthropology and the outdoors. Welcome both of you to Women's Hour. Joe, I wonder if I can start with you.

So we were talking about the social media post and a viral TikTok video of a tearful woman being left behind on a mountain trail led to informal support groups for women who've experienced this an alpine divorce. Why do you think this all resonates this alpine divorce term with so many women? Morning.

Look, I think it resonates because it actually exposes flaws in a relationship. I mean, I've been a relationship counselor for 20 years. I often see what I call red flags in terms of one partner, not expressing empathy to the other, not being very supportive during difficult times, being avoidant about discussing issues that might impact their wife or partner. And I think what happens with Alpine divorce is, you know, it's not about mountains. It's what happens when that real stress in a vulnerable environment, you know, exposes how a couple handles power, communication and care for each other. And there are often those flags there.

I see them, but I don't see my couples, obviously, in that kind of hiking environment. But it really does amplify some of those smaller red flags. We can overlook in our busy day-to-day lives when you're alone, and vulnerable in this kind of situation, it really does sort of ramp up the conflict and the lack of communication and the terrible, brutal abandonment of leaving your partner in a very dangerous situation. So, Joe, should women talk to their partner about what happened? Because I'm guessing it won't always be as clear cut as just deciding,

yes, this is a red flag, I'm leaving the relationship. No, I think it's important for people to notice red flags. You know, it's unusual perhaps to be in a situation where you are quite literally so emotionally and physically exposed. And it would be very difficult to say to somebody, look, we're going on a hike. How are you going to be? You're going to be supportive and communicative and help me and not try and outpace me? We don't ask those questions because we make the assumption that somebody will be there for you during a difficult. moment like that. And so

when it happens, it's all the more brutal and shocking. I mean, the woman you mentioned in Austria, the manslaughter case that came, actually that was a second time with this same man who had abandoned her once. There have been many others. There was an American woman who was 2220 miles into a hike and her husband just left her to the elements, literally. And so So yes, you can see red flags that are problematic in terms of communication, in terms of empathy, in terms of compassion. It's quite hard to project yourself or to ask those questions before going on an outdoors hike with somebody. Marian, can I bring you in here?

How dangerous can it be to abandon a partner when you're on a hike? Well, it entirely depends on the kind of terrain and what kind of adventure you're planning. So I think the thing we have to remember when we're talking about this trend is that we shouldn't assume that the outdoors is this terrifying place where as soon as you step foot out of the car park, you're going to die if someone walks away from you. Because the vast majority of people who spend their time hiking, hill walking, with friends, with partners, have a fantastic time. I mean, I take my four-year-old and my seven-year-old on hikes. There's no abandonment. There's no, you know, risk of death. We just have a great day out.

So I think we have to remember that the outdoors is not scary and it's not there to kill us. But the other thing is that women can be incredibly competent in the mountains. And so the thing about Alpine divorce is that when we're talking in this shorthand and, you know, the kind of social media memes, there's almost an implicit assumption that the woman is the weaker one, the victim, the one who's vulnerable and the man is the one who's kind of capable and competent and getting frustrated at her pace or her fitness or her skill level. And I think we need to call that bit out and actually say, I've learned, so I'm a patron of the British Mountaineering Council. I represent hill walkers. And the people that I have learned my hill walking skills from, the people I've had introductory winter mountaineering courses with are amazing women mountaineers. Sam Leary, Lou Reynolds, Rachel Cruz-Smith. And they have taught me so much great stuff.

But also through learning those skills, I feel more empowered, more independent. and I can enjoy the adventure more because you're part of it. You're not being tagged along like an extra bit of baggage. You're owning the adventure together. And if you have that independence, then you can carry that into all manner of adventures and then you can say, hey, do you want to come for a walk? And it can be, let's just go for a walk. Good vibes, good music, listen to the birdsong, sit under a tree, have a sandwich.

You don't need to be going for fastest known times. You don't need to be summiting at all costs. because actually that's terrible. You're not a good mountain person if you're doing that. So as well as the red flags in terms of the relationship, and I absolutely agree whether it's an intimate partner or whether it's a friend, whether it's a climbing partner, if someone is dumping you or putting you in a position where you do not feel empowered

and in a position where you can make sound decisions and you go, actually, I don't fancy that or I think we should turn back or have you noticed that the weather's coming in or show me where we're, we are on the map because you never know it might be entirely unintentional. That person hasn't stormed off and left you, but they're the one who trips over and breaks their leg. They fall off the cliff. They feel chest pains and it's on you to rescue them. So you need to be empowered, but empowered isn't a defence. Empowered can be a really positive, amazing part of being in the hills. Joe, we've been asking for people's messages about this and some of our listeners have

already got in touch. One says, on a grey day, my boyfriend and I set off in his car for a day out. We disagreed about something minor, and he stopped the car and told me to get out. So I did. I flounced off thinking he'd drive around the block and come back and get me. He didn't return. I had no money and no idea where I was. That was years ago, long before mobile phones. There was a phone box, so I called a friend reversing the charge, and she came to get me. I ignored this red flag, and eventually disastrously married. him. Really interesting comment there that, you know, does this kind of abandonment kind of reveal anything about gender and power? Yes, look, it doesn't have to be the man that does the

abandoning, of course. It could be the woman, but generally in this sort of viral situation where now, it's nearly always women about men having abandoned them. And yeah, going back to those red flags have actually married him. I'm sorry that happened. I should have been in my counselling rooms. I might not have let that happen. But yes, look, we have a triumph of hope over adversity when we want a relationship to work. We do have a habit of neglecting red flags. It's all about, you know, it's the moment, really graphic moments sometimes that some women that think they can rely on somebody emotionally actually don't stay with you and think, get difficult, but it's a very graphic example of that. And we can overlook that in many instances.

But when it happens when, if you're not a great hiker or not a great mountaineer, or you're not that experience, you are vulnerable. And that's when you need that person with you the most, to not be the dominant one, to be the supportive one, to be the lookout one. And if that doesn't happen, it's just a very brutal example of when they leave you in that sense. situation of the lack of care, the lack of love, the lack of support in a relationship generally. Mary-Anne, did you want to pick up on that? I think we all have a duty of care when you're in those situations and I was just reflecting on the kind of stories and, you know, the pinch point in my relationship is doing DIY and we just go, actually, we're just not going

to do it together because we'll fall out, not in a toxic way, but just you find, you know, you find the group where you've got shared goals and you're going to work well together and that's going to make the activity, you know, enjoyable and safe. But in the outdoors, I think maybe what we're doing is reaping the legacy of a decade or more of representing the outdoors as this place where roughty-tuffty, masculine, hyper-masculine men are off-summitting, never say no, never turn back, don't be scared of anything. And actually, that is terrible mountain craft. But this is what we're reaping, that we're all operating in these norms, these gender. norms and so are the men that actually maybe the way to be a man in the mountains is to not turn back, not slow down, not show empathy or care. And so I think maybe we need to

extend the understanding to actually say there's a different way for blokes to do that. And there's a role for men who are hill walking, hiking, climbing, mountaineering to kind of maybe perhaps challenge those norms that that isn't the only way to be and perhaps it's not the best way to be a man in the mountains. A really interesting discussion. Joe Hemings and Marianne Ohhotta, thank you so much for joining us this morning. I just want to read one more comment here. We have had lots. This one here says my husband and I were in New York on a business trip. We had a meal out one evening when he was particularly snarly, which I put down to tiredness. While we were drinking our coffees, he left to find the loo, which was at the far end of the restaurant. On his return, I saw him stop at the desk to pay our bill. Notice he collected his coat, and I assume mine too. Then he walked at pace right past me without a glance. out of the restaurant into the night. Bewildered, I rushed to collect my own coat, then realize I only had a couple of dollars.

He always controlled the money. This was January. It was snowing outside. I ran out of the restaurant into the night, but he was nowhere to be seen. I had no money for a cab, and our hotel was several blocks away on the main drag. It took me the best part of an hour in unsuitable shoes to find my way back.

Very interesting, and I would like to hear from you, that person who message in, whether you are still married to that person, and what you did in that situation, how you resolve that conflict. But do get in touch with your comments on this 84844-0-3-700-100-44. Their company's success helped build a nation. The company is such a big part of Korea's economy. But who are the family behind one of the world's tech giants?

The major corporate empire that we now know today. Samsung. Inheritance Samsung from the BBC World Service explores the real-life dramas of the Lee family. Here's a succession style drama underneath of all this. Inheritance, Samsung. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcast. Now, the anti-discrimination charity Kick It Out has received 131 reports of sexist incidents at football matches

from the start of the men's season until the end of February this year. That's more than double than for the same period last season. with comments to female fans such as, shut up, what do you know about football? You should be in the kitchen getting your husband's tea. Why is this sexism increasing and what can be done about it? I'm joined my Sarah Collins, who's the head of safeguarding at Stockport County Football Club

and BBC Sports Senior journalist Sally Friedman, who's also written a book about her experiences. Sally, I want to start with you. Can you just tell us what you've been hearing them from female fans? Good morning. Thanks for having me on, certainly. As you alluded to there in your introduction, sexism at football matches from a female's fan perspective,

unfortunately seems to be the norm. Every female fan we spoke to had several stories, not just one, and they experience it almost every time they go to watch men's football. And some of the sayings that you said are very, very common. Not only you should be making your husband's tea, it's the get back to the kitchen, it's you should be doing the ironing, why are you here?

Those were said to us several times from different fans that we interviewed that all had heard sexist comments. So, yeah, unfortunately, still in 2026, we're battling this manosphere. Yeah, it's astonishing that those things are still being said today. And you've written a book,

haven't you, about your experiences, both working in the game and as a fan. It has a very graphic title, Get Your Tits Out for the Lads. So, I mean, that certainly gets your attention. and that's presumably what you wanted to do because you wanted to talk about your own experience as well. Sure.

I mean, there's a story behind the title. I mean, it's a chant that's still said in the football stands today. One of the fans we interviewed talked about, she was a photographer working in men's football, and she had that chant at her from people behind her in the stands, and I experienced it in Portugal in Euro 2004 a long time ago, 200 men chanting at myself and a female friend as we tried to walk across the road.

So, yeah, that language, 2004 for me, but still 20, 2006, we're still hearing it. And as you said, I had enough stories for a book. It could have been a novel. And it was my way of sort of getting my frustration out, shining a light on a very important topic. And I guess trying to give myself a little bit more of a voice in the space, because so often when women speak up about these issues, they're not listened to or they're told, oh, we've listened, but there's no action and there's no accountability. and there's no punishment. So my book was a sort of escapism. And after 15 years, the accumulation of lots of little incidents got to the point where I thought,

I need to do something about this. And the skill set that I had was writing. So I penned a book about it. So Sarah, your head of safeguarding at Stockport County Football Club. We talked about those figures. It's more than double for the same period last year of reports of sexist incidents. What do you make of those figures? So you could look at it in two ways.

You could look at it actually really negatively, that it is increasing. But actually, for me, it's quite positive in that it shows people are knowing how to report those. They've got the confidence to report as well. And actually trusting that something will be done and they'll be supported through that process as well. So I think there is two strands to it. Don't get me wrong, I would love no reports at all. but also we can't do anything about it if we're not talking about it and we're not highlighting the issue either.

So can you just describe some of the behaviours that you're seeing at your club? Yeah, so a lot of ours, what we've got to think about as well, and it isn't just fans that are being subjected to this across football as a whole, it is hospitality and staff within those areas. And it is the common, what some people would cost is low level and I'm not a huge fan of using that term because nothing for me is low level. But it's the comments, it's the shouting, it's making people feel uncomfortable when they're maybe passing a group of men, maybe changing where you're going in terms of

that direction, which, you know, is wrong. But it's making sure that people know that they can report it to us really early. And what we want to do is be really proactive and not reactive to that. So making sure that we've got enough mechanisms in place that people can report things during a match in live time. So we can deal with it there and then because it is very, very difficult to try and deal with it once people have left. How difficult is it then to identify kind of what's going on and the particular individual involved and then how to take action? So we have lots of different mechanisms on a match day. What we don't want to do is sort of highlight that female.

maybe go into a steward and then her pointing to the mail that's been involved. That obviously increases that risk. So we have several ways at our club where people can report things anonymously. So within our program we have a safeguarding page which has a QR code that will come straight through to the safeguarding team. On match days, we have a safeguarding team that wanders around the stands. We have a live tech service that people can text into. That report goes into the office.

As long as they give us enough detail in terms of the... the stand that they're in, the seat that they're in, we can take really positive action in relation to any behaviours towards anybody in the ground. Sally, let me come back to you. In the lead up to the recent men's Manchester Derby, officers from Greater Manchester Police and partner organisations, were deployed across the city to raise awareness of violence against women and girls. Have you heard what the police have had to say about how that went?

Yes. they were doing that initiative as a result of the increase in sexism. And they reported that it's on the rise. Similar to kick it out that you said in the introduction, they reported 131, which was double. Similarly, the police have reported an increase from 18 last season to 28 this season, and they expect when the new figures come out that it will rise again. So it's certainly something that I think often is football is described as a mirror of life.

the police officer that we spoke to, alluded to that the way she described, that football is a mirror of life and that sexism is actually a societal crisis. It's not only happening in football, this issue, you've probably talked about it in many different spheres on your show, but in business, in politics, in economics, and science,

it's across society. So what we're seeing in football, actually, is a representation of what's happening culturally, which is very hard to change. What can be done then, in football in particular? Despite the sort of negative situation we've painted, as Sarah said, there are signs of progress. And the fact that women are reporting it and calling it out is one step to making people accountable and we can create roots for punishment and that sort of thing.

There's also been a lot of action from the UK government as an example. They've changed the national curriculum so that in education at schools in England, young boys and girls will be taught about misogyny and sexism. So education is critical. There's also been a new working group formed by the home office to tackle online abuse because online abuse is something that came up from all the fans that we spoke to as well. Not only does it happen inside the stadium, but once they get home and they go on their phone, they're quite often found and the sexist abuse continues online.

It's 24-7. So that's something that also needs to be tackled and that the home office is taking steps to try and act upon. I want to ask both of you this. I'll start with you, Sally. You know, you're a journalist in sport. You obviously love football too. This must be hugely frustrating to you, Sally, that this could potentially be putting women off going from game,

going to games. Yes, it's very sad. It's actually, although I'm so passionate about the topic and speaking up about it is so important, I'm up to me down. And that's one of the fans I interviewed said black and white, she will not take her daughter to men. football matches anymore. She's had enough. She doesn't want to expose her daughter to sexism,

and she said she would take her to the women's game and hopes that that doesn't get ruined too. And a couple of fans I spoke to said it's even creeping into the women's game, and they've seen groups of men going to the women's game purely with the main objective to shout sexist abuse at fans and at players. So I'd never heard that, so I was shocked to hear that one fan story of her accounts. But it's important that we talk about it. We are, Seeing signs of progress, despite these negative news stories, I hope that in 20, 30 years, young girls can grow up in a world where this doesn't happen. It's probably going to take that long, if not longer.

But I do have hope that we will see progress in the future. That's really disappointing to hear because we've heard on this programme that the women's game can be a very inclusive environment for families to go and watch their teams. Sarah, I just want to finish with you. You have banned some people, haven't you, when you've had incidents reported about them? Yeah, and that goes across all football, any behaviour that falls below our standards. There has to be consequences. And I think it sets a really strong message to other people because we know football fans talk.

There's always lots of Facebook forums with lots of different comments and things. So if everybody is talking about someone being banned for being abusive, using misogynistic chanting, etc, then, you know, it's going to get back to other people and they're going to say, actually, if we come to Stockport County and we use that type of language or behaviour, we're not going to be able to go. But also on the flip side, if we come, we are going to be looked after and we're going to be safe and that's all we want. But I think it's really important to understand that it's everybody's responsibility. It can't just be my job. I can't be everywhere and I can't keep everybody safe. So everybody needs to be singing from the same

hymn sheet in terms of taking that really strong stance, but also knowing that the club will make those decisions that will show that we won't take it. We won't take it. Sarah, thanks so much. Sarah Collins, head of safeguarding at Stockport County Football Club and BBC Sports Senior Journalist Sally Friedman. I should say that we've had a comment here from clearly an Everton fan who says, I attend Everton football matches and every time have been treated with so much respect and kindness more than in everyday life, says Jane. So of course there are those very positive experiences that people have to.

Thank you so much for your comments on that. Now, my next guests are the team behind a Broadway hit which has just opened in London. It tackles the Me Too movement and teenage relationships all set in a classroom in small town America. Called John Proctor is the villain. It centres around a group of high school girls who are studying the crucible, Arthur Miller's classic portrayal of the Salem Witch trials.

Now, this time, the action unfolds as the Me Too movement of 2018 gathers momentum, and it comes pretty close to home. Delighted to say I'm joined in the studio by playwright, Kimberly Belflower, and director at Dania Tameau. Welcome both of you to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for having us. I saw the play last night, and I can certainly say it was,

an emotional journey that you took me on. Kimberly, can we start with you? Where did the idea come from to combine the Me Too movement and the crucible? Yeah, I, so I'm from a small town in rural Appalachian, Georgia. And in the fall of 2017, I happened to be back there staying on my family's farm when kind of the Me Too movement first kind of crashed onto us all. And, There was an interview in which Woody Allen called me to a witch hunt. And that just kind of, I was like, that's not really what that means. And also I should reread the most famous work of literature about witch hunts. And I hadn't read The Crucible since I was in college.

I'd also studied it in high school, like the characters in this play. And in reading it with the lens of Me Too, I think as a part of Me Too, I was really doing a lot of like looking back on my teenage and young adult life with kind of new, the new vocabulary to. name things that I hadn't named for myself before. And I felt like the same thing happened when I was rereading The Crucible. Like, wait, this isn't what I remember. There are all of these power dynamics and abuses that we didn't talk about when we studied the play. And I think The Crucible is a great work of theater and literature and also the way that it's taught and kind of our fundamental insistence on naming things as one thing or the other, good, bad, hero, villain. Obviously, my title is kind of a cheeky provocation.

But it's always so much more slippery than that. So in revisiting the play, I think it really just got my gears going. And that felt like an exciting vehicle into talking about me too. It's worth saying you don't need to know the crucible to watch the play. Dania, had you read it? And did you think about some of those things that Kimberly have mentioned if you did reread it? Yeah, so I also love The Crucible, like Kimberly, and I read it in college, and then I saw Ivo Van Hoves production three times. So it's a play that I really love. And in our rehearsal process, we read the play. And so our cast read that play. And just hearing this text, which has a very famous interpretation in context with our play was incredible. So I think that there's so many more threads to pull out of the Crucible. And in our play, the characters talk about Spark Notes.

And after our New York production, the people that run SparkNotes actually got in contact with Kimberly. Because on the page, it says that Abigail is the villain of the play. And they're like, oh, my gosh, that's quite outdated. Let's revisit it. And those are notes that go alongside. Yeah, they're like a study guide for the play. And so even the people that sort of run this very huge American institution, we're like, wow, I can't believe we've been saying it like that.

we got to look at that. And so they actually changed the study guide for the play. Wow. You said Kimberly that you grew up in a small town. Yes. And, you know, very much has that feeling in the play. And high school students of both sexes in it receive very little sex education. And ultimately taught that abstinence is best. Yes.

Is that something that you experienced? Very much so. Yes. Abstinence-only education. And I grew up in the church and just the idea of purity culture, both in the community and that's what we were taught at school. Yes, I think, again, that harkens back to what I mentioned earlier of just kind of this rigidity and kind of putting things into these neat boxes and binaries that don't serve anyone ultimately. The girls, though, are determined to start a feminist club at school. They have witches, me too, even Taylor Swift on the agenda.

What do you think that feminism means to them in the context? of me too because it, I don't obviously want to reveal what happens, but it becomes very personal, doesn't it? Yes. Yes. That was a big thought exercise. I kind of put myself through as I was developing the play of, you know, I'm someone who, who thinks of myself as having very clear and strong moral and political convictions. And I'm also very, very close with my father and my brother. And I found myself being like, what would I do if one of them were accused of some of these things that these other powerful men are being accused of. And I don't know what I would do.

And I don't know if I would act in accordance with who I think I am morally and politically. So I think that that, yeah, really wanting, really wanting us all to reckon with when the political becomes personal, which, of course, it always is. But I feel like we don't let that, like, touch us as closely as maybe we should in order to have empathy with the way that some people react to certain things that happen in their own lives. But yeah, and I think for these girls, you know, just like Me Too is giving me the new vocabulary to kind of reframe my teenage years. I'm like, what would it be like to be a teenager in the middle of that moment? And to kind of be grabbing these new words and terminologies and these new revelations that are kind of reframing the society around you while you're also figuring out who you want to be as a person and kind of trying on these different identities.

and it's not easy. It's not a one-size-fits-all for them because it becomes so personal. And so watching them trying and failing and not being perfect feminists, it's like who among us is. So, yeah, yeah. Dan, you're all set in one classroom,

but it really evolves and changes depending on lighting. I hope it's not too much of a spoiler to say that at one point the audience is plunged into darkness, which actually was. It's very confronting, I have to say. It was that important to you? Because sometimes I find when I see a play that's all set in one environment, it can be a bit much sometimes and you do want to change,

but I didn't feel that when I watched it. Well, that's great. I'm glad it's working. You know, when we're teenagers, we spend so much time in the classroom. Like most of our hours are spent there. And I just started to really think about that room as a psychological space in addition to it being a literal classroom. And I think so much of how we're trying to use it is as there's sort of everything space.

Like, yes, they have class there, but they also meet for clubs. Sometimes they go early and have unexpected interactions in the classroom. And, you know, a lot of, like, time passes in the play, and we thread through these transitions, and I wanted to allow us to go deeper into the girls' experiences in the interstitial moments. And so we have these moments where in transition we linger with a character, and we start to see what she's actually going through underneath. what she has to perform when she's in a public setting again. And I feel like those windows into the psyche or the emotional experience of a teenage girl are really,

for me, really emotional when I watch our young actresses do them. And I think keep us locked into their perspective. And so when you're emotionally connected, then you understand the sort of claustrophobia or pressure cooker of that room. Kimberly, I want to talk about that, actually, that kind of teenage awkwardness, that humor. It's very funny. And actually I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, yeah. But it's laugh out loud funny at times.

And I felt like I really connected with the, you know, unconfident, awkward teenage me through the actors. That's the dream. And, you know, that must have been important for you then to portray that. Yes, deeply important. I love teenage girls so much. I think my teenage self lives very large in me. And, you know, because I was like, I think, again, like me too is really making me revisit that time in my life.

And yeah, it is funny. And even when they're going, even when the play kind of turns and more serious things start happening, there are still very funny moments and they're still goofy and weird and, you know, are in the middle of crying with each other and then make each other snort laugh. And it's like, that's just life. And that's so much of girlhood specifically, I think, is kind of being able to turn on a dime because, you know, you have to. You have to be able to laugh in the face of trauma and, um, and confront that with your humor and your awkwardness and to be seen and that and to have private spaces with your girlfriends to be that version of yourself. And yeah, it's very, very important to me. And they are a cult of teenagers. I'm glad you think that. There is a very young cast. Um, we've got some

people who are, who are barely out of their teenage years. Um, yeah. And for many of them, it's their professional debut. And for me, as their direct. it's like very tender to get to usher them into their professional careers. Again, I don't want to give away anything, but there are some kind of outbursts of energy from the girls akin to the kind of dancing in the woods that's described in the crucible. I don't think we often see that kind of wildness that I was presented with watching it.

Was that important for you to show? Absolutely. And I think I couldn't name it when we were making it, But now that I see what we're doing and what the young actresses are doing, I've been able to sort of, like we've been able to sort of identify what makes it feel so special. And it's that we're seeing girls be wild and feral and a lot, but they're not being sexualized. And I think that is so rare to see a girl so in her body and so, yeah, full of life in a way that is just not sexualized at all. That's not what it's for.

and that has been really impactful, I think, for all audiences, not just female audiences. I think for anyone coming, it's sort of like strange and impactful. And somebody who saw the show in New York described it as their body having a reaction before their brain could catch up to what was going on. I like that. Yeah. And I hear there could be a film. Is there anything you can tell us about that?

There is going to be a film. I'm in the middle of writing the second draft of the screenplay. Donia is directing it. Tina Fey and Mark Platt are producing it. It's an amazing, surreal process. It's a lot of fun to kind of figure out how this story translates to a different medium. It's the same story, but using the tools of film to tell the story in a new way. And just briefly, any chance of extending this run?

Because it's been hugely successful in the UK. I don't know if it can extend at the Royal Corp. but we hope that it will find future life. Yeah, because I think it's a play that people want right now. Like there's a, there's like a craving for it. So I hope that there will be more life for it in London. Well, it's wonderful to speak to you both. Kimberly Belflower and Dania Tamor,

thank you so much for joining us this morning. And the play John Proctor is the villain runs currently until the 25th of April at the Royal Cork Theatre in London. I just want to read a couple more of your messages about Red, flags. It's after we were talking about that term Alpine divorce. Julius says A nice man took me to a romantic candlelit restaurant and proposed.

Carried away by the atmosphere, I said yes. But the next words out of his mouth were, you don't want to ring, do you? I didn't marry him. I think that was probably a good idea. Tomorrow, the first female Archbishop of Canterbury in the Church of England's

more than a thousand year history will be installed. We'll be discussing what skills and focus, Dame Sarah Malali will bring to her new role. So do join me tomorrow at 10 for that if you can. But for now, thank you very much indeed for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Jamie Bartlett. And for BBC Radio 4, I'll be looking at how fakery took over the world. No, no, hang on, hang on, sorry. You're not Jamie Bartlett. I'm Jamie Bartlett. Oh, really? Well, who am I then? I'm afraid you're not real pal. You're just an imitation.

chatbot I created to help me make this series on modern fakery and why it's everywhere. Sounds good. What's going to be in it? Well, there's a lot. 1980s professional wrestling, dodgy academics, AI psychosis, COVID vaccine, skeptics. What's it called? Everything is fake and nobody cares with me, Jamie Bartlett. And me, Jimmy Botlett. Listen first on BBC Sounds. Their company's success helped build a nation. The company is such a big part of Korea's economy. But who are the family behind one of the world's tech giants? The major corporate empire that we now know today.

Samsung. Inheritance Samsung from the BBC World Service explores the real-life dramas of the Lee family. There's a succession style drama underneath of all this. Inheritance Samsung. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.