Woman's Hour - Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe talks to Emma Barnett

Episode Date: June 1, 2022

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe talks for the first time to Emma Barnett for this special Woman’s Hour programme.In this exclusive interview she reveals the full story of her imprisonment in Iran. Nazanin explains how she survived solitary confinement, how the love of her daughter kept her alive and what Prime Minster Boris Johnson told her about the real reason for her imprisonment.Nazanin was arrested in April 2016 after visiting her parents in Iran with her 21 month-old daughter Gabriella, on her way back to Britain. For the next six years the charity project manager was detained by the Iranian regime. She was sentenced to five years for plotting to overthrow the Iranian Government, and then in 2021, sentenced to another year for propaganda against Iran. Nazanin has always refuted those allegations as strongly as she could, stressing that she was in Iran on holiday visiting her family. Her husband Richard Ratcliffe mounted a tireless campaign to free his wife, including twice going on hunger strike. In March 2020, as Covid took hold in Iran, Nazanin was temporarily released to her parents’ home under house in Tehran.On 17 March this year, she was finally allowed to come home and be reunited with her husband and daughter. Her release, along with fellow British-Iranian national Anoosheh Ashoori, came after negotiations and diplomatic efforts that had intensified in the preceding months. At the same time the UK Government paid a £400 million debt to Iran dating back to the 1970s although both governments have said the two issues should not be linked.CREDITS Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Woman’s Hour Sarah Crawley Producer Director John O’Rourke Executive Producer Tanya Hudson Executive Editor Woman’s Hour Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. In the early hours of Wednesday the 17th of March this year, a woman known to the world simply by her first name walked down the steps of a plane at RAF Bryson Orton in Oxfordshire and was reunited with her husband and daughter, all together for the first time in six years. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was detained in Iran in April 2016,

accused of plotting to topple the government there, something she has always refuted as strongly as she could, stressing that she was in Iran on holiday, visiting her family. Separated from her young child, she was still breastfeeding, she was subjected to interrogation and solitary confinement. Meanwhile, here in the UK and around the world, hers quickly became a household name because her husband, Richard Ratcliffe, made it his mission to never let her be forgotten, despite being advised to keep quiet, to let diplomats do their work behind closed doors. Then, as Foreign Secretary,

Boris Johnson made this remark about Nazanin in 2017. When you look at what Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe was doing, it's just, you know, she was simply teaching people journalism, as I understand it, at the very limit. Although he later apologised for that incorrect statement, Nazanin lived under the shadow of those words for the next four and a half years. In the end, it was Liz Truss as Foreign Secretary, the fifth in post during Nazanin's detention, who oversaw her release. After two months back in the UK, Nazanin is now ready to tell her own story. She has chosen to entrust that story exclusively to me here on Woman's Hour

and to you at home. You may have seen the television version of my conversation with Nazanin on BBC One. In what you're about to hear, we've been able to include a lot more of her words. Words she has waited years to say. When I met with Nazanin last week, I asked her to take me back to that fateful trip in the spring of 2016. I went to Iran on the 17th of March 2016 to take my baby girl, to show her to my family. And prior to that, I have been to Iran many times with her. That wasn't the first time that she was going to Iran. But we would always go for Nur's holiday,

which is the new year in Iran, purely because the city is empty, the weather is nice, and it's basically the holiday season. But also, the two weeks that I was in Iran, everywhere was closed, and we felt like it's a good time to hang out with the family. I arrived a day before the Norse holiday, and I left the day after the Norse holiday. While I was coming out of Iran at the airport in Tehran, I was arrested, and I was taken to Evin prison for about 24 hours. Without being told what was the problem, they just said there was something wrong about your passport. And of course, my daughter was 22 months old, very little.

And where did she go when you were arrested in the airport? So my parents were inside the airport with me and I was queuing up for the check-in. So I gave the baby to them. They told me that you're going to be released in the morning. So everything is going to be fine. It's just a call of questions, which wasn't. And I was in Evin in solitary confinement for about 24 hours. I did not know where I was. They didn't tell me that I was actually kept in Evin. So this is Evin prison in Tehran? This is in Tehran. And then the following morning, about five o'clock in the morning, I was flown to Kerman,

which is a city in the southern part of Iran. And I was kept there for about 64 days in solitary confinement. I was interrogated. That is where I realized that they have kept me for something which I haven't done, but the picture was a lot more clearer by then. I was there kept with drug dealers and drug abusers. From there, on day 64, I was transferred to Tehran, to Evin. Basically, Evin has got the general ward, also has got different sections to it,

which are the security cells for different bodies that would capture people. I was kept in a place called 2A. And I was there for about just under seven months in solitary confinement. And then I was moved to the general ward. And that time is when the trial happened, and I was given five years initially, and then the sentence was approved. May I ask, and of course, I'm very mindful of how difficult this must be to talk about, but being in solitary confinement for, I mean, that amount of time in itself will have been extraordinary on your mind, on how you were feeling, how you were coping. How were you thinking about what was happening to you? Were you thinking,

I've been on holiday, there must just be a misunderstanding here, it will get sorted very soon? Yes. So I need to mention that when I was arrested, I was still breastfeeding. As a mother who is still within the phase of breastfeeding, it will be very hard to take your child away from you and then you suddenly realise, what are you going to do with yourself? I mean, up until an hour ago, you've been feeding your child in your arms and then that wasn't there anymore. That was very, very difficult. But also, it made me almost not realising whatever is happening around me

because all what was on my head was my baby. And your body must have also been physically aching when you are suddenly stopped from breastfeeding. Exactly. And I was suffering because I was in a very different place. Kirman is not my city, so I wouldn't know that place. I was kept in this locked-up room without even being told what is happening around me, and I was kept in this locked up room without even, you know, being told

what is happening around me. And I was confident they have arrested the wrong person. Right. Because that's what you were thinking. That's, I mean, that is exactly what I'm thinking now. After six years, they took my child away from me. And this is the government that talks a lot about motherhood and family and the fact that in Islam, family is sacred. But Dara was a victim of something which was exactly the opposite. That was horrifying. But also the other bit was, if you think about, so just talking a little bit about solitary confinement. Solitary confinement, in my opinion, is the most hostile, quiet form of torture. I am claustrophobic. So the fact that I was kept in a cell which was one by two meters with the door locked all the time. There was no window.

There was no sense of, you lose sense of time. And was there a light? The light was on all the time. Even at night? Even at night time. That is why you lose sense of time because usually daylight, there is no light. Nighttime, there is light. And then when you go to bed, you turn the light off. But I think solitary confinement works in a way that they can mess your mind up in a way to break you. And if you think about, I was in solitary for about nine months. So if you think about the confessions that the government would take from people under the pressure of solitary has almost no value to me because there is a reason they keep people in solitary and that is to force them to confess to the things they haven't done and that

works so at the moment there are so many dual nationals kept in Iran in prison but also there are so many people I'm talking about the female kind of political section. Which is where you moved to after solitary. Exactly. So it's about capacity is about 40, 41. But one thing about the judicial system in Iran I want to mention is that there is no independence in that system. So depending on who is going to arrest you, which in my case was Revolutionary Regards, then they make the case for you based on a story created purely by them. And they will just then work around it and they build a narrative around it. There is no justice within the system. They will work on the basis of the fact that they will also manipulate the judge that they will send the case to, to be dealt with. So it's a very submissive kind of system.

And the culture around that. Exactly. And the judiciary almost has no right against what the revolutionary guards would ask them to do. So your fate is purely and utterly, and your luck is in the hands of the judge who is going to be taking your case on. If you're lucky, I was not lucky, if you are lucky then you will be given to a judge that would at least allow you to defend yourself and to listen to you. But when cases like mine, if you're moved to branch 15, Judge Salavati, you know what is coming. So you know there is not going to be any justice or anything. And that's who you faced and you were sentenced to five years and then the next sentence later on.

So Judge Salavati treats you the moment he sees you as convicted, as not accused. So the moment you walk into his office, you know what is coming. Because he's not going to even give a space to you to talk about your case or defend yourself. Because at the beginning, everything is very clear. You have been arrested, in my case, for some political reason. And this whole thing is a show. So there is no just trial. So by law, whoever arrests you, they would then send over the file to the judiciary to follow up. But then in my case, the Revolutionary Guards, they attended my first trial, the interrogator, my interrogator, who was actually interrogating me blindfolded. He attended my second trial. He was there when I was released on the day at the airport. No, really? He was there. Yeah.

So that shows how systematically influential the revolutionary guard is to the judicial system. And that he has stayed with you throughout that. He has stayed all along the way with me. Or, for example, when I came out on the ankle tag on the 19th of March 2020. On the very same day, in the history of Iranian revolution, there was a general clemency, which was given to whoever has got five years or under five years of imprisonment, which it would apply to me. They did not give it to me because their revolutionary regards didn't want me to have it. So they have got the right to even overrule the words of the Supreme Leader.

So the clemency was given by the Supreme Leader. So if you see, there is like a trend of the influence of, and the kind of how subservient the judicial system are, in terms of they do not have any saying in that. It is exactly what the Revolutionary Guards want. And I think that is really important to explain to people because they will have no idea. They don't know.

Most people watching or listening to this will have no idea. And for you, what you just mentioned there, as part of your interrogation, you were blindfolded. And you talk about being in this room, certainly with the light on the whole time and how long this went on for. how did you survive Nazanin? I think it was my faith more than anything else that helped me. I am scared of closed spaces.

And there were times that I thought it is wrecking me. But then there was one thing that I would like to mention, that is the love of my daughter. So the number of times I thought about how it would have been had I been with her at that moment. And cuddling her and kissing her. Also, I went through kind of the guilty feelings of maybe I was not a good mother to my child.

Like I said, it plays random strange games with your mind that what is happening to you is for something that you have done wrongly. And that is the beginning of this journey. So later on, I realized that this was all sham. Part of it. But you were on your own. There was no one you could bounce anything off. And your mind goes where it goes. Exactly. So I think more than anything, because also they did not give me any books or anything to entertain myself with for a very long time.

No books, no newspapers. And you said about your faith as well. Was that something you expected to be that bigger part of your coping mechanism or was it something you found yourself reaching for? I think that is exactly what happened. So I was born in a traditionally religious family, but I was not a practicing person in terms of my religion. And we're talking about being a Muslim. Yes. But then I felt like this is very, very strong inside me. And maybe God is putting me in, kind of testing me

in a way. So my faith went a lot deeper and a lot stronger throughout solitary. And I think that is actually what helped me. Yes. I think also, Gabriella, of course, the pain being a part, but also the strength to try to get back to her must have been such a key a key part of this because she is also a major victim in what has happened to you exactly if you don't mind me saying that absolutely and I think one of the things that I was confident that this is not going to take for a long time was it is not acceptable anywhere in the world that you know you separate a mother and a baby. And because in my story, a baby was involved, I was confident that they are going to have mercy.

Whatever the agenda was, there is a baby involved. They are not going to, OK, they might have problems with me, but not with my child. But that was not the case. And your parents were having to look after her. Exactly. At home in Iran. And while a huge source of upset and distress for you, she was also a source of comfort, I understand, because she could come and visit you once and then twice a week once you're out of solitary. Exactly. So when I moved to the general ward, one of the things that we were always looking forward to was the visits.

But also the visits were at the same time both a thing to encourage people to carry on and just get on with their lives in prison. But also it was considered as a weak point. So they knew that if they're going to cancel the visits, exactly the same with the calls. It was a power. Exactly. So it was a way that they knew women would be angry and frustrated if they cut down the calls or the visits. So they were using that in that way to put pressure on women as well. So we would go through phases of fighting because it was a female ward. We convinced the head of prison at the time to give us mother and baby visits,

apart from the visit that we would have with their family. And we managed to do it. And he, in fairness, he agreed to it. But then he changed. Somebody else replaced him. And then the whole thing went back to, you know, square one again. And then we had to fight that. There was this constant battle to get your rights. And we were talking about basic rights so if you think about the difference between the female ward and the male ward the male ward they have got access to phone on a regular basis for longer hours so there's a big difference even in presence but for us at the time when I was inside and I think it has changed a little bit but pretty much the same for us it was about three times a week 10 minutes each time

but then there was this kind of playing games on the line that sometimes they did not want to give us the telephone but they did not want to show that they don't want that so they would just switch off the phone and we didn't know that the telephone is actually switched off from within the prison oh my gosh so there was something wrong with the operator. The line was down and the mood of the ward was low again. But they did put pressure on women through visits and phone calls. It sounds like as women, you work together. You formed friendships and bonds to try to have rights, but also, of course, to survive together.

Exactly. I think there is one thing about the women boards and that is a solidarity. So women were building a life inside the walls to remind themselves that there is a life outside the walls. So there is a lot of getting together and doing things in groups and if you think about reading books

and we had like different sort of things like we had knitting we had sewing we had yoga we would cook together so cooking was part of the everyday routine eating meals together but also teaching each other things so we had people who would teach us philosophy and talk about we had like a gynecologist in prison who would talk about female problems. That sounds quite useful. Exactly. So whoever had any skill... Would share.

Would share it. Did you impart any? I think I was there long enough. Towards the end, I was teaching different things like leather work, yoga. You were teaching yoga? Wow. Sewing. I did spend a lot of time sewing and that is actually one thing that i took refuge when i came out on the ankle tag so i started

making clothes so i think more than anything the solidarity in the women's world was very very strong it sounds like it was a very strong bond between you and and when you did get to see gabriella how were those visits were you allowed to i don't know draw together and read and and when you did get to see Gabriella how were those visits were you allowed to I don't know draw together and read and have some of those things together because I imagine you'd want to plan that time exactly so Gabriella was the youngest of the kids of the mothers in the ward and the next child was about eight years old she was two two and a half when I was moved to the general board. It was heartbreaking to see a child as young as that to come to see her mother.

So I think the guards within the visit room were kind. So they would allow us to use crayons and, you know, paper and we would make origami quite often. She loved origami but for me it's it was more about to think what I would want to do with her yes to plan during the visit time to make her feel good about the visit but then of course the mind works in a way that the moment

the visit starts you're thinking about the end of it and then you have to wait for another week to see you can't actually enjoy that exactly exactly I mean this might be a slightly odd question as well but I suppose because she was such a source of strength for you if you had known this was going to be nearly six years of having to to get through this day after day after day I mean could you have coped with that? Could you have even processed that? No, I've been thinking about it for a very long time, that it's a good thing that we don't know what the future is bringing for us. Because had I known on that day that I'm going to be in prison for five years and then one extra year in Iran banned to leave the country, I would have just dropped dead. I don't think I could

survive. But also, on the other hand, I was telling a very, very dear friend of mine that human being is tough, you know, is tenacious, is resilient. You would go through all sorts of interrogation, imprisonment, any form of torture, and then you come out of it and then you dance and you sing and you laugh and you bounce back. So there is one good thing about human being and that is you will survive. But it amazes me how, if you come out of it, how stronger you will be.

And I think that is what happened to me when I came out of it. It is a story of survival, you know, as much as anything else. Yeah. You know, because some, although that's the hope, some can't, you know, some won't. And some also don't have the same sort of people outside and all of those different parts of it. And I also think it's important for people to know because, you know, it has gone on for so long your story that with regards to Gabriella she came back to the UK to live with Richard with her daddy in 2019 and those visits of course then were over and you didn't then see her until very recently until you were freed that what was the reason behind that decision and how how did that leave you? It was a very, very difficult decision.

Difficult in a way that Gabriela was the source of my survival in prison. So having thought of not having her would be a torture for me. So I remember we thought about it for a very, very long time. There were a couple of things, like my parents were not young. They couldn't look after a child. They had done that for three and a half years. They retired. Also, my mom was dealing with her own child being in prison

and also her grandchild raised without, you know, both parents. That's a huge amount. Exactly. But also, by then, she couldn't speak English, so she couldn't communicate with her daddy. And then it was the time to go to school. So we decided that we would send her so that at least she would be with one of us and pick up the language and then go to school.

But never in a million years I thought the Iranian government would not send me with her because that was a time that I was eligible for parole. I went on a strike. Richard went on a strike. We're talking about a hunger strike. Exactly went on a strike. And I might talk about a hunger strike. Exactly. Hunger strike. And we did that joint summer 2019. My main point was, how can you see my child leaving the country without me? They did try to talk me out of it to say, don't send her. But of course course that wasn't my decision it was a joint decision

with my husband he was her dad and the day she left I remember I was like a very very lost person running around in the yard thinking what am I going to do with myself I don't I don't know what to do with myself and I felt like one part of me has been taken out of me, that I do not know how to live without it. The first week was really, really tough. But then at the end of the day, we decided that she should go. It's good for her. It's good for Richard. And that might also, you know, nudge the Iranian government that enough is enough.

Because he, of course, had been living on his own without either, you know, the love of his life, his wife, and also without his child. He hadn't seen her for so long, who, as you say, came back and wasn authorities there and what happened to you because of them. But there was a major moment from one of our politicians here in the UK, the then Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson in 2017. He was giving evidence to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. That was the year after you were detained and imprisoned. And he talked about you training journalists in Iran, which was incorrect. And that was taken, it was used by the Iranian regime as proof that you weren't on holiday, which you were, and that you were working in some way against Iran. He later apologised for those comments. Did your life get worse after those remarks? Did it change in any way? So I met Prime Minister on the 13th of May. Very recently, we should say, for the first time. For the first time. And I explained to him that

I just wanted him to know that his comment, which was not correct, lived with me for the following four and a half years of my life when I was in prison and then out and then in Iran. The reason I say that, this is just from my perspective, and I'm not talking about politics, I'm just talking about what happened to me as a result of his comment. Like I said, the revolutionary guards will build a story. So then we'd find different evidence to feed into it. His comment fed very, very well

within that story that they were building. So for about a year and a half, I was trying to say, look, I was on holiday. It was the New Year's holiday. Everywhere was closed. How could I be training people? Nowhere is open.

I have come with a baby with a suitcase full of nappies and, you know, baby toys and clothes. And to see your parents. There is no evidence that I was here to work. But then when he made that comment, the Revolutionary Guards, every time after that, when I stood trial, when the new case opened,

they said that you have been hiding information from us because the people in your government, your second nationality, they knew what you were up to. They even told me the day that I was being taken from my parents' home to the airport. They said, we know that you're a spy. My accusation was never spying. It was, I mean, as bad as it sounds, membership of a legal community. But the Revolutionary Guard wanted that to be called spying.

So when I was being taken to the airport, I was told that, we know that you're a spy, we know what you were up to, even your prime minister mentioned that. So I lived under the shadow of his comment, psychologically and emotionally, for the following four and a half years after that day. And I think the Revolutionary Guard jumped on the idea that, OK, so now we can feed that very well, the narrative. Into that story.

And that's what they did. When he apologized and when he clarified that, you know, in the House of Commons, you know, he said, I was looking back at this, he said he apologized for any distress caused to you and your family, stating the UK government had no doubt you were on holiday. That was just a few days later. Did that make that go away in any way? No. You can't undo that? You can't undo that. We are talking about a regime that one of the highest members of the authority once said, we are proud to be taking a couple of hostages every year to make money out

of them. So that is the idea. That is the ideology. It's a strategy. It's a strategy. So they arrest us to make something out of us. Of course, they knew that I was not doing what they were telling me that I was doing. They knew that I was not running. There was no evidence on that.

But then they had not taken me for anything that I had done. They had taken me to get something off the British government. They were taken me to get something off the British government. They were very, very clear about it. I think it was week two that I was arrested. They said, we want something off the British government. We will not let you go until we get that. And then they gradually developed the story and it was a lot clearer until such time that I think it was in February 2018, I was told bare face by one of the judges that there is nothing in your file. The reason you're being held is over dispute over the interest rate of the tanks, the debt.

If I can at that point, just to take our viewers and listeners with us, what we're talking about. You were told, as you said, very quickly, actually, this was about something else completely. And that thing is a historic debt of now, as it came to with the interest, 400 million pounds that UK's owed Iran since 1979, when the UK sold 1500 tanks to Iran, which were paid for upfront, but later the order was cancelled, and the UK did not refund the money. I should also add that money was finally paid in March of this year at the same time as your release. You know, a lot of people don't know necessarily that detail,

but you knew that detail. You knew very quickly and early on that was told to you. Exactly. And your entire life, your child's life, your husband's life, your family, everything changed because of a dispute between two states. Yeah. How does that make you feel? I think my arrest and my ordeal was an open-ended sentence and an open-ended abuse. There was clarity from very early on that they wanted something from the British government.

But then it got more and more hostile because then they opened the second case because they realized that with the first case that I was given five years, they might not be able to achieve what they wanted to. The new case was purely open to put pressure on me. And to extend that time. And the whole procedure of the trial and then the sentence was about three years, which is unprecedented, but based on the law, it shouldn't take more than four months, six months for the whole thing to be wrapped up. But it was purely open to put pressure on me, which was then came at the back of the comment of the foreign secretary at the time.

And I should say that the Foreign Office has never confirmed the link still between, yes, the money was paid at the same time as you were released. But they haven't confirmed the link between the two, despite what you have been told by the regime. Did Boris Johnson confirm it to you when you met with him? Did he say, this was never about anything you did? This was about what we owed Iran? He did mention, he said that it was about the debt. And how important was that for you and your family to hear that? I think for me, there were times that I was very, very, very angry. But then once I accepted the fact that it is what it is, there is very little I can do to change it,

I had to come to terms with what had happened to me. Just like when somebody is hit by a car or when somebody gets cancer, you can't blame why that happened to you. But also when I went to see the prime minister, I just wanted him to know that what has happened to me, what would it look like. Because nothing can change that. I have lost that six years of my life and my child's life. There is nothing that can make that up for me.

I feel responsible to talk about it so that at least it doesn't happen to other people. I know that's very important to you. But the fact that, can I change that? Can I take those years back? Does anything come up valuable enough to make those years back for me? I don't think so. I can't still look at my daughter's baby pictures.

There was like a huge amount of videos and pictures that my family had taken from her when she was away from me. I just couldn't, I just still can't go through with them. You can't? I just couldn't, I just still can't go through with them. You can't? I just can't. I had a lot of her baby toys and baby clothes in Iran collected to be shipped back with me to London, and they finally arrived. I couldn't open. So there is this legacy, the emotional legacy that will stay with me forever. I think prison will haunt me forever. Whether I can get rid of it, I doubt, but I will try to change it to something else that at

least other people, if only I can help them for like one little bit, that would make me happy. But I don't think there is anything that can. So I wasn't expecting any explanation from that meeting to say it happened for this. And that would make me feel, OK, you know, there was a reason for that. Whatever the reason was, that was wrong. It shouldn't have happened. I had done anything. And I was not arrested for what I had done. But I don't think anything can change that.

Was it important to you to be able to say to the Prime Minister some of what you had to say, which was, you know, the words that were used, I understand is that you lived, the words that we used, I understand is that you lived under a shadow after his mistake, but also some of what had gone on in the name of this country. Yeah. I do believe in talking and communication. So I felt like I need to see him and I need to tell him what I have gone through. And I think he was generous enough.

He gave us about an hour and a bit of his time and he listened to my story. And that meant a lot to me. But then again, it was just satisfying myself that I have told my story and I would just walk off. And my conscience will be clear that I have said it. So he knows it, what I have gone through. You talked there about anger as well and how, you know, you are feeling and have felt. And also, apart from today, the only time really that certainly the British public and the world have seen or heard you was a few days after you were freed. And we'll talk about that. You chose to give a press conference in which you thanked an awful lot of people.

There was a lot of love and laughter and smiling and, you know, people were so happy to see you. But you also carefully showed some of your frustration, you know, the fact that it had taken five foreign secretaries to bring you home. Not getting away from the Iranian regime here and whose fault this is in the sense of who actually took you. But is that frustration, do you think that is a feeling that will stay with you forever, if I've even described it correctly? I think it will. But also one thing that makes me feel not that angry is at least my story had a happy ending. So we have many people who were left behind. I cannot begin to tell you how I felt that day when I realized that Murad was not on the flight with us.

So Murad is, Murad Tahbaz is the Iranian-American-British, I would call, hostage. He is part of the conservationist group. There is seven of them, eight of them, one of them passed away in prison. And I was with the two of the girls of that team. But because he was British, he is British, we were assuming that Anousheh, me and Murad would be on the same flight.

And Murad, his wife is also in Iran. And Anousheh was with you, we just said that as well. Anousheh was with me. So you thought it would be the three of you. I thought I would see both of them at the airport. Couldn't see Murad. I tried to think what Murad would have felt at the time that he realized that he was left behind.

There is this kind of pain that you cannot even begin to imagine. I was mortified. I just could not believe that he was left behind. I just could not believe the image that Mvida, Murad's wife, and I had made in our head that we will be all going together home. It's not going to happen. So I do genuinely believe, and I even told the prime minister, that Britain should hold Iran to account for that bit of the deal, which Iran broke over Marat. And it should not turn a blind eye on that, because Marat should have been on that flight with us,

and Iran should be held accountable for it. But also, there is a bigger problem here, and that is, in my opinion, Iran is being given too much space to exercise its hostage-taking diplomacy. In my opinion, Biden administration is failing to bring its hostages out. Same goes with Austria, France, Germany. We've got Sweden, we've got Ahmad Reza, who is on a death row. We are talking about somebody's life, you know know which is at stake and

i think nobody can understand what it feels to be living under an execution order so nilufar who is again part of the conservationist she lived for about a year under the probable execution sentence that she'll be given i have lived with nilila Farah in the ward. I know her very well, and I know her family very well. I cannot imagine what she felt when she was told that you might be given execution. She's only 34. So I think there is like a general responsibility for the world to unite together. Countries are failing their citizens. Nobody should be living under the shadow of political powers. So we all pay the price. I was lucky to come home. The others who are left behind, they are paying the price for the political, you know. Iran, we have no hope in Iran.

Iran uses its citizens to reach its political aims. But countries like Britain, that has got freedom of speech, respect for human rights, we have got rule of law, should hold Iran to account. When I was, we met with the Foreign Secretary of this trust a couple of weeks ago, and we mentioned that the world should unite together to make Iran stop the hostage-taking, should make it very costly and very expensive and very difficult for Iran to take hostages. So we are talking about a money-making business,

because they get people to get money, quite often people, you know, take out their own people from prison. And no human being should be attached to international agreements. We should make them separate. With regards to Iran, I'm also just aware that that is your home country, your place of birth. It's, of course, where you still have family and many friends and links. Is there any way that it could ever be made up to you by the regime or any route back for you and your home country? I don't think so.

So when I got on the plane on that day that I was coming home, it was a very, very bittersweet feeling because I knew I'm finally released and going back home to my daughter and husband. But I also knew I would never be able to go back to Iran. So I know that the Foreign Office has now changed their travel advice that do not go to Iran. These kind of stuff, it doesn't work.

You cannot take away the basic rights of human beings, and that is to see your mom and dad, to see your family. Something might happen to your parents, and they might get ill or whatever. You might want to go. You cannot take their basic rights away from them because Iran is a hostage-taking country. What you should do is you should just stop Iran to do it by making it very, very expensive for them. In my opinion, it's a very anti-human rights decision to tell people, don't go to Iran. It is almost forgetting the main problem, but then focusing on not being able to solve it.

So when you found out you were going to be released, and I mean, I don't know, did you believe it? I did not believe until the first time that I got on the plane. I did not believe it. I thought that might be the case after what you had been through. And I know you'd heard promises before and all sorts of things. But you were also having to deal with, which I hadn't quite understood until you said it yourself, saying goodbye to your mum and dad. We couldn't. I just couldn't hug my mum and dad. I think it was arranged for me to be picked up by the embassy, by the British embassy in Iran. Then that was refused. I was taken by the Revolutionary Guards to the airport. But going to the airport was so security intense.

So I couldn't, I did not see my parents. I just had a phone call with them. And I said, look, this is going to take ages. So go home. So yeah, I understand that Britain has given half a billion dollars to Iran. That should not make my life more difficult to come back. I should have been given a space to come home easily. Instead, I was made to sign the forced confession at the airport in the presence of the British government. Whereas... Could we just pause on that? So before you left Iran... Before I left Iran at the airport... You had to...

I had to sign it. Otherwise, you wouldn't have been able to leave. They told me that you won't be able to get on the plane. And I knew that that was like a last minute game, because I knew they told me that they have been given the money. So what is the point of making me sign a piece of paper, which is incorrect, because the paper says, I agree that I have, I confess.

It's a forced confession. To all the things they had been accusing you exactly and the the British government not questioning it why I have to do it so a British official was with you when you signed yeah but also the whole thing was filmed the whole thing of me signing the first confession was filmed I mean the whole thing was filmed. Cameras are a very big deal as part of their security. Exactly. But also, I think it's worth to mention that the Revolutionary Guard will document everything if they have got a case like me. And I'm sure one day they will publish all those footages.

As you might have seen, there was a footage about me the moment that I was arrested. There was a footage when you were actually arrested that you didn't know was being filmed. Exactly, which is like secretly recorded, which is then again illegal, and then put into the public domain, which is again illegal. But also they enjoy showing how scary they are and the desperation of people.

So it's a tool of power as well. It's a tool. So I'm sure they will show that someday. Of you signing a confession. Of me signing it, even though it was under duress, even though it was, I was going on a plane anyway, I'm assuming. But they would use that somewhere sometime. And I just want to put it here.

On the record. On the record that all the forced confessions that we have been exposed to, I don't know anyone, any political prisoner, any Jew or national who was not forced to be filmed, they have no value. They are just propaganda for the Iranian regime to show how scary they are and they can do whatever they want to do. But it must have been something you felt that you just did not want to do, having fought and protested and known your innocence the whole way through. It is dehumanising, in my opinion. If you force someone to sign something that,

first of all, I have finished my sentence. There was no point of me asking for clemency. And you're about to leave. I'm about to leave, but also I haven't done it. Well, that's the biggest point. Why would I sign something I have been trying very, very hard for the past six years to say, I have not done it? We did ask the Foreign Office for a statement about the confession,

and there was nothing said specifically in response about it. But what was said was that Iran put Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe, this is from a spokesperson, through a horrendous ordeal right up to the moment she left the country. Throughout that time, the UK government was working tirelessly to end her unfair detention. But it was always in Iran's gift to release Nazanin and to allow her to return to the family. You did, of course, get on that plane. You did, of course, come home. And, you know, as you put it, it's a happy ending of sorts of the fact that you could and you did,

but still very mindful of those you've left behind. What was that moment like? I mean, you're on the plane. I have to say, I remember a photo coming via your local MP, Tulip Sadiq, who was so excited, so happy. We saw that image of you. I think people also couldn't know if they could believe it or not. But what did it feel like for you?

I was very relieved, very, very happy. At the same time, still not believing that it was happening. Even on the plane? Even on the plane. And I think I have waited for such a long time for that moment that I could not differentiate the reality with my dream. That was my dream coming true.

But I couldn't understand whether it's real. I still wake up, today is day 61 of my freedom. I still wake up thinking is day 61 of my freedom I still wake up thinking is that true and I think it was a very very very long time to just think that maybe this is not going to happen at all it was a very very happy moment when you touched down in Oxfordshire and you were reunited with Richard and Gabriella exactly but it was also very upsetting because one of us was left behind. And that was painful. It must have been. It was very painful.

Because of their families as well. Exactly. You were whisked off to a safe house, you, Richard and Gabriella. And I was trying to think about this, being a three again. You know's a rhythm to it there's a feeling in a family and and trying to get that you know how how was that that first night together and and you know since those first nights were like a holiday I don't think I will ever be able to explain the feeling of three of us but also I knew that my return journey was never going to be rosy. It would have been difficult because six years is a very long time. We change.

I was not expecting to come back to what I left six years before. I changed. My husband had changed. Baby is eight now. Not a baby anymore. So I was ready to come back to something which was very, very different. And if you think about it, the world has changed. But I don't think I will ever be able to express how we felt, how this real was felt that day. How is it now? And how are you? Calming down a bit. I think I go through phases. I think I have given myself longer time to recover. There are things that really, really upset me about what is happening in Iran with the uprisings at the moment and with the situation.

I've left many, many friends behind. I do believe that the meaning of freedom is not complete until they're out. But then again, you think that when my friends come out, there'll be other people in prison that I don't know them because I left before they came in. I'm beginning to think that the world is a nice place to be. I don't think I'm quite there yet, given what I have gone through. Is there anything that sort of has had a moment for you where, you know, trying to get back to some sense of normality where you've thought, OK, this is how it could be?

I don't know, the school run or... I remember you actually saying, or I remember it was Richard saying, that you really wanted him to make you a cup of tea, for instance. He did make me a cup of instance. I hope that cup of tea was good it was up to standard. Yeah it was good. But I imagine there are just moments of pure mundanity really of family life which you are just taking in all the time. Yeah I find myself a lot less energetic than I used to be so socializing is a bit of a struggle for me. I lose energy very, very easily. Every day, there is one thing, one little thing in the house, a picture, a memory of the past that throws me back to where I was. And I don't think I have quite managed to close that and just move on. And I don't think I will be able to. I think

we've got a saying in Farsi that says, you might leave prison, but prison will never leave you. It will be with you for the rest of your life. And I think I need to accept that. And I think it takes a lot of time to get back on my feet. I don't think you'll probably ever be able to appreciate how people felt when they saw that you were free, knew that you were free, you know, for sure. And, you know, the sense of jubilation, I think it will also be one of those moments

people will remember where they were when they heard Nazanin Zaghari Radcliffe is free. I imagine that's quite overwhelming in some ways. But I do know that you have also been really cheered and richered by the support of regular people. I also know apparently people write to you just putting nasine on the envelope. Yeah. Is that right?

It is right. So it's very easy to slip from the hands of destiny, thinking that people have forgotten you. And that is what happens to you when you are in prison, because you're almost disconnected from the entire world. There were times that I felt like I was forgotten. I remember I also had a chat with Richard on the phone saying that nobody's doing anything for me, not knowing that he's running this massive campaign. And I think I wouldn't have come home without the public care and public support. And I only found that when I came back. Like you said, we still, after like two months of freedom,

we still receive cards that says, to Nazan Zagay Ratcliffe, North London. And then the postman, can you please get it to her because we don't know her address. And then it reaches us, which is fascinating. And it shows how far the story goes and how many hearts it has touched and how many people care. And I was humbled. I mean, knowing that there are a thousand women going on a hunger strike for me every day for about three years is humbling. I mean, women in in particular and I know that's why you also wanted to talk to me here on Women's Hour you wanted to talk as a woman with women having had if I could put it like this I suppose years of male control which is which is

how it manifested. Exactly. And then the power of that support and that love, it obviously means a lot. I did also think that when it was described, I believe, by Tulip Street, to say to him or about him? Because it's, you know, especially very recently, that hunger strike that he did outside the foreign office. People were really worried about him as well. I think our story was a story of love more than anything else. Political aside, but it was a story of love because Richard felt so desperate towards the end that he was like, I've got my life in my hand and that is the only thing that I have. If nothing else has made me achieve what I want to, then I'm going to put my life at risk

and go and sit in front of the foreign office. I've got so much respect for him. I've got so much gratitude and I think I would never be able to thank him enough. But also it makes me think, do I deserve all that? And I hope I do. It has been an amazing journey for both of us. We have lost so much.

But if anything, our love has gone a lot deeper. And I am grateful to him for what he has been doing for me. I'm incredibly grateful to you talking like this I know how important it was to you to be able to tell the world some of what has happened to you and you've shared an enormous amount. Thank you very much for having me it has been a pleasure to be talking to you I know that you have been following my story and I am really grateful. But also I would like to thank some other people that I think have been very, very generous to us in terms of their care and support. I know that many people have come down to support us when Richard was on hunger strike.

They have been writing to their MPs and asking for help. They have been painting stones. They have been sending to their MPs and asking for help. They have been painting stones. They have been sending cards and stuff. But also all the politicians within the British politics who have been helping us and supporting us, all those who took our story personally. I'm very, very grateful for them. And at the heart of them is Tudor Sadiq,

who has been following our story very, very closely. I also want to thank my family in Iran, I think, and of course Richard's family in the UK. They have been standing by my side. I am very, very grateful. I have my friends in Iran who accepted me with all my quirks, coming out of prison, being all very weird and making sure that I did not spend one weekend alone.

My wonderful lawyer, he has been tenacious and fierce and he has been working relentlessly on my case for a very, very long time. And he ended up being a huge support for my family and myself. So I'm grateful for that. And I just want everybody who is listening to your program or seeing us to know that we could have never been here without their support. Little or big, they have been supporting us and we are grateful. Very, very grateful. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe speaking to me in an exclusive extended Woman's Hour interview.

I hope you appreciated hearing from her as much as I did. And now you've listened to this, why not subscribe to us on BBC Sounds where you'll get the Woman's Hour daily podcast full of women's voices and women's lives to listen to whenever and wherever you like. It'd be lovely to have you and you can also join in the conversation on social media where we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for listening and for your company, and talk to you soon. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.