Woman's Hour - Nelly Furtado, Toughest towns for girls, Julian Assange accuser

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

The Portuguese-Canadian singer-songwriter Nelly Furtado has sold more than 40 million records worldwide and won awards including a Grammy. Her upbeat, genre-defying pop music dominated the charts in the 2000s, from her break out hit I’m Like A Bird to her 2006 album Loose and its stand out hit Maneater. After finding that her music had been rediscovered by a whole new generation of fans on social media, she’s back with 7, her first album since 2017. North East Lincolnshire and Blackpool are the most challenging places in the UK for girls to grow up, according to a new report by girls’ rights charity Plan International UK. The results are based on a survey of almost 3,000 girls and young women across the four nations; and highlight how girls feel uncertain about their futures and let down by a lack of progress in gender equality. Nuala is joined by Rose Caldwell, CEO of Plan International UK.In 2010, the Swedish human rights activist Anna Ardin accused Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks, of sexually assaulting her, allegations he has always denied. The allegations made headlines globally and set off a chain of events which saw Assange trying to avoid extradition to Sweden by seeking asylum in a London embassy for seven years. In 2019 the Swedish authorities ended their investigation. However, Assange spent the next five years in a British prison fighting extradition to the US, where he faced prosecution over massive leaks of confidential information. Assange was eventually freed last month, after a plea deal with the US. Anna says she’s glad he’s free and joins Anita in her first broadcast interview.Adele, one of the world's best-selling music artists, has revealed in an interview ahead of her concerts in Munich next month, that she will be stepping back from music temporarily after growing tired of the slog of fame and missing her old life. She talks about her "tank being empty" and the author and broadcaster Emma Gannon joins Anita to talk about when it all gets a bit much.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. How are you all feeling today? Full of energy or desperate for a break? Well, singer Adele has said that she wants to take a break. She said her tank is empty. She also said everything makes her angry. She's 36, old and grumpy. Can you relate? How many of you feel as though your tank is empty? Life is constant, isn't it? Kids, bills, work, repeat.

So I'd like to know this morning if any of you have done what Adele has said she'd like to do and take a break. Of course, she's a multi-millionaire megastar who can afford to tap out and rest. But what can us mere mortals do if we too feel like life is taking a toll. Get in touch and tell me if you've ever taken a break, a sabbatical, maybe gone part-time, an adult gap year, or even just put an hour aside for yourself once a week just to give yourself a break. What is it that you do? Maybe you just spend time looking at glamorous social media accounts

and magazines, dreaming of a different life. Whatever it is, get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also email me via our website or you can WhatsApp me on 03700 100 444. Also coming up on the programme, Anna Arden, one of the two women who accused Julian Assange of sexual assault. It's her first broadcast interview.

Hear how she feels now that Julian Assange is free, plus a study that has looked at the UK and come up with the two places where it's hardest to be a girl. It's where, could it be where you grew up? And what can be done to improve things? We'll hear from a girl who lives in one of these areas. That text number again. Get in touch with me about anything you'd like to talk to me about on the programme,

but particularly whether you've taken a break. It's 84844. But first, to my guest, this vision of beauty that is sitting radiating in front of me. The singer-songwriter Nelly Furtado has sold more than 40 million records worldwide and won awards including a Grammy. Her upbeat, genre-defying pop music dominated the charts in the 2000s. Nelly Furtado, welcome to Woman's Hour. That might as well have just been my playlist, you know.

Oh, yeah, I saw you jamming. Yes, having a good time. Anita's dancing. I'm always dancing, but always when your music is on. You took some time out from the music industry and a whole new generation has discovered you on TikTok. So you're back with a new album. Yeah, I'm going to say also, I think I need tissues for this program

because already what you've said, just shared in this one 10-minute intro about what your show's going to be. I was thinking, wow, did they bring the tissues? I think I might cry on this show. It happens. And the estrogen is flowing around. It's unavoidable. It's going to be. I was thinking, wow, did they bring the tissues? I think I might cry on this show. It happens. And the estrogen is flowing around. It's unavoidable. It's a special hour, you know, and we do, yes, there's an energy. I love it.

Yes, good. Thanks for having me. Thank you, everybody. Hi, everybody. Well, it's wonderful to have you here. So did it come as a surprise to you? Yes. The Nellisons, as they're called. Yeah, I'm still absorbing it, actually. Like, it hasn'telly Sons is like yeah I'm still absorbing it actually like it hasn't quite sunk in I think I'm still like it's quite surreal I always say it's kind of like the matrix or something you're like am I this is this real like did I get to be a teenager in the 90s and

then put out music in the 2000s and then now I get to relive that energy again and have new fans rediscover my old music and really really appreciate it I've seen fans that are a whole new generation at my concerts just singing along excited I mean some of them they weren't you know they definitely weren't on the earth when the first songs came out wasn't it your daughter so you've got an older daughter who's 21 oh yeah I do yeah she's almost she's 20 yeah 20 and did she she's the one who turned you on to it right originally she was kind of like about 16 and I was taking a hiatus I had my two younger only youngest children only a year apart so I I was quite busy just kind of stay at home mom and kind of put the music to the wayside for a couple of years and yeah she's in high school and she said oh mom your song uh your song's trending on tiktok and i said

well what does that mean what is tiktok i was really unfamiliar with that app and it's quite funny because it's my favorite hobby now like i actually enjoy it and and enjoy creating things for tiktok but yeah it was like oh it was like i was called back to be on to be totally i was like a call back not only by the new generations of fans discovering my music on social media etc etc but djs actually djs and clubs playing and remixing and rehashing old stuff and i just kept hearing remixes of all kinds of things old and new of mine catalog pieces even that a lot of people had heard and becoming remixes it's almost like I felt like people I don't know just wanted

to like I needed more vocals so I went to the studio and started making more stuff you know some artists take a break and it feels like they took a break I feel like you've just always been that your music has just played, not just in my house. I mean, it feels like your music has not stopped being played. We started the program by talking about Adele saying she wanted to take a break. It's funny. I loved what you were saying about that, that not everybody can take a break. It's weird that you were talking about that today because literally this morning or last night,

I was thinking about how my parents didn't get to take a break. They lived paycheck to paycheck. They worked very hard. And it was almost like the only day they exhaled was Sundays. But Sundays were glorious. You know, we'd wake up. My mom would put the ribbons in her hair and brush her hair. We'd put on our little fancy lace socks and our matching outfits that were somewhere hand-sewn.

And we would go, I'm getting choked up, we'd go to church, and then we'd come home, and Mama would make this amazing meal, and she was almost like a different person on Sundays, you know? Because, like many of us, she was in that, like you said, that race of just every day just like hustling and just kind of trying to make it happen, and I guess not the luxury of being able to take a break, except for on Sundays, which was, again, glorious. And they were immigrants to Canada from?

They were immigrants from the Azores Islands. So my parents were born and raised in the Azores. We love to hear their names. Azores. My mother, Manuela, Maria Manuela. And my father, who passed away five years ago, bless, Antonio Jose Furtado. Yeah. So they're from Ponta Garza, a village in San Miguel.

Yeah. So they immigrated to Canada for, you know, and we were all born there. Me and my brother and sister. So you saw them work very hard. I really did. Yeah. It was, it was, and I worked with them. I worked alongside with them.

You know, I worked at the motel my mother worked at. I was a chambermaid and I started when I was 12. And it was so great to like really learn, I don't know how to focus and put put your energy into something and and to learn that work ethic because i really bring that with me everywhere i go i would say of course it doesn't leave you it doesn't leave you because but not just because you've done it but you've seen it you've seen your parents do it yeah i've seen them work so hard and just be dynamic you know my mom just was beyond sort of boxes or labels. You know, she was quite a great leader, even in our church community.

You know, she was a part of the council and was listened to. So this sort of theme of voices and women has always been quite prominent in my life, thankfully. And did you sing whilst you were working as a chambermaid? I did, yeah, I did, yeah. I would always sing. I'd have people stop me because I'd be singing over the vacuum. I'd be like singing at the top of my lungs over the vacuum cleaner. And I'd had this one woman come with this shocked look on her face and she goes, she said, I just heard this beautiful voice and it was upstairs in my room and I had to come down and see who this was. And I just want to say, what are you doing here?

I said, well, I'm cleaning room, you know, 1202. And I'm singing. So when did the break happen? You know, I decided, you know, unfortunately, because my parents live paycheck to paycheck, we didn't have a college fund. So I didn't have money to pay for college. So I was like, okay, I guess I could be in debt or maybe go to college and I wanted to study writing. Or I could maybe try this music thing. I mean, people have told me I'm good at it my whole life.

I played instruments. I did choir. I did everything, all the music stuff my whole life. So I thought, okay. I knew actually. I knew I had a good chance of making it in the music industry. Deep, deep, deep, deep, deep down. Self-belief. I did have the self-belief from a really early age. So I went to Toronto. But let me tell you, it wasn't easy the first year. I thought it would happen overnight, but it didn't. I moved to Toronto. And the big city. I was 17. I was very young. And I kind of fibbed to my mother and said that I'm gonna go stay with Tia, Tia Vita, my aunt, on her sofa and I'll be back for Christmas.

I had no plan. I had no job. I just was like, I'm going to Toronto to make my dreams come true. Literally, get to Toronto. I'm staying at my Aunt Vita's on her sofa, pull out sofa. I beg. I beg my sister for a job. She worked at this alarm company and one of her friends like literally begged. I begged his boss to hire me in the customer service because I had no experience. I was the youngest person in the office. I couldn't sell alarms.

I tried it door to door. I hated it. So I couldn't, I get like anxiety. I was like, get me a different job. So I worked in this office and I just saved my money to record songs. And I had this band called Nellstar and it was trip hop. I loved Portishead. Oh, excellence.

Yeah. And then I used their photocopy, like the Xerox in the computer to like make posters and stuff like that. You know, Beth Gibbons has got a new album out as well. Oh my gosh. Yes. Oh, you should hear that. She like, oh, the way I adored her. Well, that takes tenacity. That says a lot about your personality that you said, I'm just going to go at 17.

I'm Sagittarius. So I like to run around. So you grew up in this environment where you saw your parents work really hard. You were also working as a chambermaid at 12. And I wonder when you become the successful parent, what it's like bringing up children and trying to instill similar values in them? Oh, that's such a good question. Yeah, you know, I think it takes a village. I think you need like a lot of different role models, you know, in a child's life, especially if you feel like, you know, I try to humble myself. I mean, it's hard as a parent, you deal with a lot of mixed emotions, right? Because that's such a journey being a parent. Just kind of like you'd rediscover your own childhood through raising your kids. And you've done it two different points in your life you did it at 24 exactly and then again it's like the matrix again it's like so meta it's like why do i know all these things i wish i didn't

know you know like when you have a 20 year old but then a six and five you're like oh i wish i didn't know all this you know so you're aware of the passing of time and you're aware of how quickly it all goes by but you can't stop time so there's nothing you can do about it so you almost wish you were ignorantly blissful right but um in a way though it's wonderful because you know what doesn't really matter you know like you you recognize oh those were just my hobbies you know oh yes yeah you're like okay but what's what's important you know you realize really love is the most important thing no matter what and is that because you're now in your 40s, you've had a career, you've had lots of things that all of a sudden...

Oh my God, yeah. Because I just want... I think I found a balance, I will say. Like, I think that's why I'm making music again. I mean, I met some really lovely friends who are mothers who are in this business. You know, some of them are featured on some of my songs. I have a new song, Corazón.

It features Liliana from Bomba Estéreo. Lido Pimienta is also from Colombia. They're both moms. They're both rock stars. They both tour, but they make it work. It's not always easy. But what's really important, I think, is, as you can see from my story, I had a calling, right? Obviously, I had a calling into motherhood as well, very instinctually and very profoundly. But I think I got to a point where I said, wait a minute. But what about the a point where I said wait a minute but what about the other thing yeah wait a second your new album seven it's going to come out in September it took two years to put together yeah the album I've been working on the album for four

years yeah actually my daughter's been helping me in the studio how is that oldest working with your daughter it's full circle moment you know she used to tour with me I mean she was at Glastonbury when she was eight months old in the baby carrier. I have a picture of her with a Glastonbury fairy out in the crowd. Wonderful. And now she's helping me with my album. So it's pretty cool. You wrote more than 400 songs. I did.

Yeah, yeah. I write a lot. And you also said that this album, that your ADHD doesn't always allow for you to organize creations in a methodical way. So it's hard for you to explain how you managed to whittle it down to 14. It's hard to explain. I think my brain makes a lot of sense in the studio, you know. And I think actually part of this journey was like leaning into that and saying, you know what? I have ADHD.

Wow. Good to know what it is now. You know, age 42 or something. And then come in to the studio and go, wow, I feel here my brain feels totally normal like i meant to have this brain and so that's a part of it right it's like doing what you do what your passion is you're calling so you can like be yourself you know into it we've talked a lot about adhd uh on this program particularly women being diagnosed oh good i didn't know that how much harder it is and how it takes a bit longer. You were 42 when you got your diagnosis?

I was about, yeah, 40, about 42. Yeah, 43, actually. Yeah, yeah. Diagnosed with ADHD. I think I noticed more that it was kind of starting to really get in the way when I was stay at home with the kids because I didn't have a creative outlet. I think like this type of musical creative outlet because I I think we need identity you know what I mean I think

identity is an important part of the self-love did you feel like you lost your identity um yeah a little bit some of the identity of like just identifying as like somebody who expresses themselves through melody and lyric I mean I've been doing that since I was four years old I used to just open my mouth I didn't understand I would just sing outside in the backyard and just like it would just channel through me and for hours so So that's important, right? Because that's me. That's who I am. So I think when I got busy, it was like, oh, wait a second. There's like a disconnect here. But as soon as I started making music again, and the first time I got to the studio, I felt a pain in my chest when I sang the first song. Because I was like, oh, is this just like, what was it? I was old. I just felt like the emotion had to get out of me,

you know, in the music. So it's just like, it's just really like how I, how I relate to myself too, right? Is writing songs. Of course, like I do it professionally, you know, and I put that out. I put the music out.

But obviously if I got, yeah, I got 500 things and no one will ever hear and maybe 14 people will hear in September you mentioned some of the women that you collaborated with how did that collaboration come about because you recorded in Columbia right no I did we did some stuff but but but then I LA Toronto New York um you know Bomba Stadia, you mean? That one? Oh, I did go on this sort of pilgrimage again. My friend, Lido Pimienta, she's an amazing multidisciplinary artist from Colombia,

but she's Canadian also. We met, we reconnected, and, you know, she just kind of was like, you've got to remember who you are, you know, at the end of the day. She's like, I'm a mom too, but you know what? Your art is also your child. I was like, you got to remember who you are, you know, at the end of the day. You know, she's like, I'm a mom too. But you know what? Your art is also your child. I was like, what?

That's controversial. How can my art be my child? That's not right. My child is my child. She's like, no, your art is also your child. And that didn't like sit right with me at first. But then I let it kind of sit right. And I was like, wait, okay.

Did you feel guilty? Of course course every mum feels guilty about everything right mums there's gonna be a lot of people not listening it's like yeah I mean come on yeah years and years and years and years I'm interested in what you were saying about how you've been channeling music since the age of four and I think you said that you're far there's a tradition in the Azores where you just let the music come through you. Yes, there is. So in Portugal, many people know fado. It's very cherished art form. But there's a niche of that from the Azores Islands called Canções de Zafiu,

which is all the beautiful guitars and the instruments. And then there are vocalists. There's usually two. And they're actually battling each other. And they're talking trash in Portuguese. But they're making it up off the top of their head. And it's like really witty and really fun. And picture me like nine years old kind of like hiding behind a tree.

And my dad just kind of runs up. And I'm like, what? My dad sings on stage? And it's this spirit of spontaneity and I really learned that and they would throw me up too at at my church they'd be like okay Nelly you're singing and the guitar player maybe I'd have to learn how to adapt my voice to this like person just playing the music and um that's how I write I just I freestyle I just I just kind of feel it and that's good like that's your training and then you go into the studio and you do the same thing leave the mic open just record mics open more the merrier lots of people I wanted it to feel like a club I

wanted it to feel like um a party a live show I've got to ask you about a clip that emerged recently Nellie of uh you talking to Taylor Swift and her telling you how much your music means to her how does it feel to be an inspiration to and the next generation and the icon that is Taylor Swift you know I could go on on on about her I think I had a really cool experience at her concert I was in Milan and I went to her show and they had us in this great little area watching the show and I saw her and I thought oh my god I can't give up look how much this girl has worked she hasn't worked this hard for people like me to give up even when it gets hard you know what I mean like yeah everybody's life is hard you know what I mean like come on like you know what I mean

like everybody's busy everybody's got a lot of stuff to juggle it's like that can't be my excuse you know I got to keep going because this is what I love to do and you know what I mean? Like, everybody's busy. Everybody's got a lot of stuff to juggle. It's like, that can't be my excuse. You know, I got to keep going because this is what I love to do. And you know what I mean? Like, I've got, like, stuff in the pipeline. And it's like, you know, it's so easy to just be like, I give up. I don't want to do it. And, you know, like, it just. Oh, no.

You know what I mean? But I was at the Taylor Swift show and I said, look at this girl. She's so brave. She's so strong in so many ways. And I don't think anybody really understands truly what it takes to be where she is. Like no one, no one really understands. You know what I mean? We see what we see, but it's amazing.

So anyway, thanks. Thanks, Taylor. How different is it being back in the music industry now in your 40s to when you were in your, when you were a teenager? I love it now. I love it more now. Because you can create your own narratives right like 20 years ago it was fun i missed top of the pops like we used to go on top of the pops and it was so fun well i'm just gonna put it out there i'm just gonna say i mean i know it's really early to call it but there's glastonbury next year i'm just gonna say oh yeah never know just gonna put it out there um I have got to ask you very quickly because I've

been obsessed with the fact that years ago you sung a very famous Bollywood song Kabi Kabi and I thought when I see Nelly Furtado I'm gonna ask her how she knew the words and why she decided to sing a Bollywood song well as a, I had a very good friend whose father was directing the sort of the cultural festival, sort of the Indian cultural festival in my local city of Victoria, BC. But he had no singers. He had dancers,

but there were no singers. And he said, you sing so beautifully. Can I teach you? Kabi Kabi. And also a Lata Mangeshkar song, Ye Sama. And I said, sure.

Because I was always open-minded and I tell people to always be open minded. People starting out with your musician, everything that has to do with music, you try. Right now, my favorite artist from from from from South India is Sid. Amazing. It is. What a moment that was just to watch you sing that. You're incredible. We are delighted that you're back. The new album is out.

Her latest single, Corazon, is out now. Album seven is coming out in September. Yeah, seven comes out in September. Actually, on my oldest, it happens to be her birthday. We are delighted that you popped in to say hi to us. And more power to you, Nelly Fattah. Thanks a lot, Anita. Thank you so much.

Likewise. You're doing beautiful work. Thank you for listening. Thank you. And lots of you getting in touch about taking a break. Lots of our listeners, Nellie. Shall I read some of these out? But I can relate.

I'd love to hear. Let's see. I'm 67. Two years ago, I decided to work less. I go cold water swimming as my take a break. It completely revolutionized my life. Oh, my gosh. Good for her.

Someone else says, I went part time after my son was born. He's going to school in September, but I'm not going back full time to work. My paycheck and pension might take a hit, but I think it's worth it to have that day to myself and be actually relaxed on the weekend. Love that. Emma in Lewisham says, when I need a break i take to my bed i spend a day lying down reading listening to the radio watching movies and ordering takeouts it feels indulgent and sorts me out oh yeah we're into that both of us and pascal in wiltshire says since the sudden death of my friend last year i take a slightly late start every tuesday morning to go to an early

gym class take the dog on a long walk in our favorite park and visit the local charter market. It's our weekly island of me time and helps me feel more in control of my week and less constrained by my work pattern. I feel happier, better balanced and more empowered since incorporating Nick Tuesdays into my routine. Those are amazing. I love that everybody's doing all the self-care. It's the awareness. It's so great. We have amazing listeners, Nellie.

Wow. Thank you. I'm going to let you go and have a cup of tea. Yeah, I'm going to self-care. I'm going to go have my favorite tea. What is your favorite tea? Green tea, Jasmine. Green tea, of course.

With Annie. We also have Yorkshire and others are available in the, in Wobbyshire HQ. Nelly Furtado, thank you. Thanks for having me. This has been so fun. I don't want to leave. Can I just hang out? Don't, just stay.

Hang out. I'm about to do the next item. You can just chill. I think you're going to find it really interesting. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. A study published today says that girls in North East Lincolnshire and Blackpool live in two of the most challenging places to grow up as a young woman or girl in the UK. Part of a comprehensive report by girls' rights charity Plan International UK, the results are based on a survey of nearly 3,000 girls and young women aged 12 to 21 across four nations. It highlights how UK girls feel uncertain about their futures and let down by a lack of progress on gender equality

that society has promised them. I'm joined in the studio by Rose Caldwell, Chief Executive of Plan International UK. We'll also hear from Ella and her mum, Lou, who live in Blackpool. Rose, welcome. There you go, you're tag-teaming off the back of Nellie there. Well, it's a pleasure to be here today.

Thank you for having us. It's wonderful to have you in here. So let's get into the survey that you've done and we'll talk about the specifics. What makes North East Lincolnshire and towns like Grimsby and Cleethorpes and then Blackpool two of the toughest places in the UK to live? Yes. So in our survey, we really wanted to understand whether it was the same right across the country. And so we looked at various indexes and data sets to understand what girls experience across the country. And actually, what we wanted to do was not particularly pull out one or two areas that were bad. But if we compare those areas

that performed best to those that were toughest, we find some really interesting data. So for example, if you live in the toughest places, your GCSE attainment for girls is 30% worse than in the best places. Girls are less likely to take a STEM subject at A-level. Only a third in the tough places take a STEM subject. And alarmingly... They're quite... These are big... Big differences. Big differences. And alarmingly, girls can expect to have six years less of healthy life expectancy in these areas that are the toughest places for girls to live.

So really quite stark differences. Well, let's hear from 15-year-old Ella and her mum Lou, who I mentioned earlier. They live in Blackpool. Lou also grew up there. Ella is part of the Blackpool Youth Group, United Youth Alliance, who your organisation have been working closely with. We talked to Ella and her mum, her chipped into. We began by asking Ella what she saw as the challenges that young women in Blackpool were facing. Boys thinking that they're like better than everybody else. I'd say that there's not enough education or like places to go for young men,

meaning that they take all their aggression and like testosterone out on young women, especially in schools and just in public in general. It's why Blackpool has such a big stereotype of being like chavvy and like dangerous, because it's all just like angry young men. some of the behaviors that I find difficult and that I know a lot of people including some of my friends have experienced is catcalling or just overall harassment because there's a lot of like drinking in public and there's just like putting women down in school environments and acting like them having opinions on things makes them stupid and with teachers in that specific situation oftentimes they'll be sent out of the classroom but it'll just get a laugh out of all of the other boys and it doesn't really change anything because they don't see that as a proper punishment and it's never intentional I don't think but I've noticed a very common theme like in school if I get the same grade as a boy and it's the highest mark because he's a misbehaving

boy my achievement gets played down a lot because he's more misbehaving I mean it's a bigger achievement for him to do well than it is for people who do well all the time. I find it really sad and I do agree with what she's saying and I kind of see it with children walking around as well there's almost an arrogance that they're they're untouchable and I think that's across the board in that sort of teenage demographic I think boys and girls really certainly when I was at school it was much more of a you know you listen to your teachers you have respect for your teachers you had respect for adults when you're out and about and I think you saw a lot more police on the streets which we don't have as many now I do think social media has played a massive part in it as well and it can be a really positive

thing or it can be a really negative thing and I think it depends on which way the young people are guided and and how they utilize what they what they've got the fingertips really. The best way to address it would be to have lessons like RE and PSHE being mainly focused on like respecting other people regardless of gender or like sexuality or race and in my school we do actually do that we have like a lesson where people come in from like all over the place and they come in and speak to us about like contraception they come in and talk to us about abuse towards women and men and they talk to us about all of these things and I think that it really benefits with helping people learn that things like abuse aren't just one-sided and that there's

contraception for men and for women. Yeah I mean I think I was very lucky in that I had a really lovely mixed peer group of boys and girls and there was a lot more respect I think then I think we also had a lot more opportunity to mix in a sort of semi-controlled way things like youth clubs were a lot more prevalent we had sports clubs um at the local sports center where it was definitely a mixed group of male and female so I think some of the things that would make the most difference for me and my friends in Blackpool would to be be improved safety on bus with better CCTV and lighting in bus stops because a lot of the time buses aren't really the safest environment because there's only one bus driver who's a member of staff

and they've got to keep their eyes on the road, meaning whatever could be going on in the bus can't really be helped or stopped. So I personally think that there should be like an extra security guard. Well I'd say in the past few years Blackpool has definitely improved as a place to live for young women. There's Reclaim which is like a map of all of the places where there's been sexual assault in the area so that women can stay away from places that have a lot of pins on them but it's also like a safe space to go and report anything that's happened in town. Well, it sounds like things are changing in Blackpool.

But what are your key findings? So that girls feel that they're frustrated because what they're promised in gender equality is not happening. So it's this big gap between what they're told they should expect and what they're really expecting. And so it's areas in particularly around safety both online and in public spaces, the relentless pressure to look and behave in certain ways because you're a girl, anxiety about job prospects and particularly scared about the rising culture of misogyny. This is the third report in eight years Plan UK have produced.

We've talked about a number of negative trends, but have you observed progress? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, what's good is programmes like Women's Are and opportunities for girls to raise their voices and girls to be heard. We're really keen that girls have the opportunity to be heard. And we certainly see, you know,

the government is starting to do some work on gender equality. The UK government ran a big campaign on gender-based violence. The Scottish government have sort of introduced a women's health programme or strategy. So there is some, but I think one of the issues is the lack of funding. You've asked for bold action from the new Labour government to urgently remove the biggest barriers they face

and restore girls' trust. What does that bold action look like? What needs to happen? So we believe that there's a real opportunity for the new government to develop a gender equality strategy that crosses all government departments, not department by department, but a joined up one that looks at gender equality

for the justice system, education, health, right across all government departments. And then a 10-year strategy and to restore funding to local authorities. You know, this work has to happen in the local communities. We can't just have policies and strategies. We have to turn it into action. So communities, local authorities need funding to really support this work

and to make a difference for girls. Well, we've had a statement from the Secretary of State for Education and Minister for Women and Equalities, Bridget Philipson MP, said, I am determined to make sure every young woman, no matter her income, class or background, has the best start in life and opportunity to succeed. We have a mission to halve violence against women and girls, treating it as a national emergency,

and we'll work tirelessly to grow the economy and break down the barriers to opportunity for women and girls across the country. Thank you, Rose, for coming in to speak to me this morning. And you can read the full report on the Plan International UK website. 84844 is the number to text. Now, 14 years ago, Swedish human rights activist Anna Arden was one of two women who accused the WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange of sexual assault. The allegations that Assange has always denied drew global attention and triggered a series of events that saw Assange seek refuge in the Ecuadorian embassy

because he feared he would be extradited from Sweden to America on charges of espionage for a massive leak of confidential documents that exposed alleged human rights violations by the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan. When Anna went public with her claims, she faced a public backlash from those who felt she was trying to discredit someone who tried to expose the truth at the highest level. She herself then became a figure of hate on the internet. When Julian Assange recently signed a plea deal which secured his release from prison, Anna said she was pleased he was home with his family, a sentiment that might surprise some. I spoke to Anna earlier and asked her how she felt

when she heard Julian had been freed. My first reaction was finally, mainly for myself because every time something bad happens to him, I'm blamed for it. And I get a lot of hate and I get like people blame me for speaking up about the abuse is making me responsible for basically a lot of things in his life, that he was hiding in the embassy, that he was in prison, that the United States wanted him extradited, etc. So when he was freed or that the news came that he was going to be freed, that was a relief because now I feel that finally I'm going to be disattached, like my life will be disattached from his faith. So that was a relief.

So yes, you breathed a sigh of relief. Yes. But you've written a book, No Heroes, No Monsters, about your experiences from meeting Julian Assange up to the year 2020. Why did you want to do that? Why did you want to relive it all? First, I didn't think I was going to write about it. I wrote a lot as a kind of therapy in the beginning, and I could never publish it because I used to have a blog and and I wrote a lot of blog posts about what was going on in the media and all the the

harassment that I was facing after after I went to the police and I never published it because I tried I did one interview with a Swedish paper and it made things a lot worse and then I was I was like, I can't speak about this because nobody wants to understand. So I really kept all those blog posts and was thinking that eventually I can post them in the future. And then it was really like, it was two tribunals going on at the same time,

the legal one trying to get him extradited to Sweden and the people's tribunal, the people like judging me, judging him, trying to figure out what happened in the media. And I didn't want to participate in the media frenzy. I wanted it to be like sorted out in the legal process. But then after five years my my case was buried and after 10 years the other girl's case was also buried and then i decided like now there's no more chances

for a legal process this is not going to be he's never going to be convicted he's never going to be freed we're never going to put the case forward. So then I decided to give my account to the media and to anyone who was interested, because during all these years, a lot of people defended me, but nobody really knew what had happened. There was a lot of evidence that his defense had not talked about, and his defense was the only side that had been heard in this public people's tribunal, sort of. So then I wanted to give my witness and my account of what had happened. I think we should remind people a little bit about what did happen. So in 2010, you went to the police alongside a second woman who you refer to in your book as Maria,

but that's not her real name, to report Julian Assange for sexual assault. Originally, you weren't sure whether or not what you say happened between you could be illegal. Why did you originally decide to report him? Because I was talking to this other woman and she was at the unit for raped women in the hospital and she really, like she didn't know what to do

if she was going to report him because she was scared of having been infected by any disease and we found out like when she called, she just wanted to get a hold of him. And I was like, oh, my God. I heard on her voice that she was upset. So I sort of realized that he did something similar to her, what he had done to me. And then we sort of found out that he had done the same to both of us. And that was inseminating us forcefully that he like wanted to make us pregnant that was my that was what i thought afterwards um and and that he did that to

her actually twice um and and to me once by ripping the condom um and we wanted to get him tested and he refused when we talked to him we refused to get tested and and she started to eat medication for not getting the HIV or virus and you get really sick out of that and if we would have known that he was not infected we would not have had to worry about the infection. And we refused. And then we went to the police to try to force him to take the test. That was the big reason. And then the police made a report. When we told what had happened, they said, this is illegal and this is not OK. And they wrote the report. So we never really decided to report him,

but we wanted to get help to get him tested. Of course, he's always denied the allegations. And what happened, many people will remember, some won't, but many Assange supporters believed that your accusations were part of a US conspiracy to silence him for the work that he'd been doing with WikiLeaks and that it was a setup to smear his reputation. How did that make you feel?

I mean, that was coming from Julian from the beginning. That was the first thing that he was saying in the first interview he did the next day. He said that they had been warned for dirty tricks, that he didn't know who we were. And I had talked to him just like hours before and I knew that he knew who we were. He since said that there wasn't a plot, but that didn't stop the public from believing that this could have been a honey trap or a smear campaign. How did you feel at the time when all of that erupted?

No, but it was like so many different stories of the reasons why anything basically except that he actually did something, that it was a plot that I was madly in love with him, that me and the other woman were lesbians who were setting him up to get a revenge on men, that it was some kind of Jewish conspiracy. It was a lot of different theories. And the truth was so simple, kind of, and that was like not, that was boring, I think, for many people. It was much more interesting to like speculate in

this and and that made me i mean it it was surreal i was it was made into a huge story that was a very small story what happened to your life anna i'm quite intrigued to know what happened to you in that moment the subtitle of your book is What I Learned Being the Most Hated Woman on the Internet. Tell us a bit about the online abuse you received. And I'm just interested to know the impact it had on your life. How did your life change? It changed a lot. I could not live in my apartment because there were so many journalists, mainly British journalists, I think, that They went to my parents' house. They went to my sister's house. They went to my workplace.

There were people sitting outside my home, outside my work. And I couldn't work. I couldn't date anyone because as soon as they learned who I was, it was like every door closed. And I was thinking that I'm never going to be able to get a new job. So I didn't have any money. And the hate was that I got so many threats. So the police had to hide me in Spain. So they flew me over to Spain because they couldn't guarantee my security in Sweden.

For a short while, when it was as intense in December 2010. So my life was horrible for two years at least. And then I started to get more support and people are trying to see the nuances of the story and that he can be an important guy and done this and people kind of forgot about it. It wasn't that important. But it was a media frenzy that was going on forever.

I had been working as a press secretary and media frenzies normally go on for like one day, two days and three days if it's a huge thing. But this was months and years. And I was like, it was never stopping. And it was like, it was millions of comments online. Perhaps the most surprising group of people who were negative towards you were fellow feminists. What was their main issue with you speaking out? I must say first that the

feminists like feminist group have been a really huge support so a lot of feminists have been speaking up like to try to see both sides or to see the women's side but there was a lot of feminists thinking that i was harming the the women's rights uh for speaking up about a case that was not as grave as the women being raped in Congo, for example, or that this is not a real rape. And I never said it was a rape. It was a ripped condom. It was forced insemination. And that it could be rape rape but i don't really know

if it's a race i mean it depends on the legislation and then talking about this as a as sexual assault that was like not violent enough for some feminists and and on the other hand my will to have like a more nuanced view that he is not a monster. I mean, that's the title of my book, No Heroes, No Monsters, that he's not a hero that can make no mistakes. And he's not a monster that is all through horrible person. And that is also like a trigger to some feminists that you're supposed to like say that rapists are monsters. They're completely different from other men like say that rapists are monsters they're completely different from other other men or from like all men are monsters but i think that every man has

the potential to be a sexual molester or commit sexual assault and every man has the the possibility to work against these kinds of abuses i'm really really intrigued by what you've just said there about the nuance. And you said earlier that he can be an important guy, but also do this. How do you feel about Julian Assange today? I don't feel that much. I mean, this was 14 years ago. So it's been a long time and I've been going through this. I got

therapy from my insurance company and I've been I've been discussing this and also writing the book was very important like to try to understand what had happened and why is this relevant for for a bigger picture or why is this relevant for more people than myself so i i sort of i've been able to put this a bit outside of myself um and also him so so i don't feel that much i mean he's a he's a person and he can still do good things and and and i hope he takes that responsibility of like understanding what why this i mean why he was reported by two women. It happened back in 2010, seven years before the Me Too movement made talking about sexual assaults much more common.

Has Me Too changed people's perceptions of your story? Did things shift for you? Yes, it shifted a lot. It was like a lot of issues that were not talked about at least not in Sweden like stealthing like even forced orgasms that like concepts that I had never heard before that I was trying to like discuss in my book um that i felt this is not possible to talk about because nobody's going to understand it's like you don't have any words to speak about it but with me too i i got a lot of new words and a lot of people like tried started to see things a bit differently and and there was

like stories available from other women who had been subjected to similar things and like what happens how do people react or how do women react after sexual assault so so a lot of things that I describe in my book had been much more difficult to air before me too so that really like made the discussion more mature about these issues it was a really important movement i'd quite like to understand on a little bit if you if you wouldn't mind trying to explain like the moment because obviously he was lots of people supported what he was doing with wikileaks and here you are about to reveal to the world what happened as you say as you allege to you like what conversations were you having with yourself with this

other woman at the point where you just knew that this was going to go public because you must have known that this was going to be huge how do you come to that decision because it's difficult it's difficult for any woman to come forward to speak about these things but particularly when you're about to make an allegation about a man like Julian Assange. I really didn't know that it was going to go public. The police, when I talked to them, that was the first question. It's like, how public is this going to be? Is this going to be like official? And they guaranteed me that it was not going to leave. And it took like an hour and a half.

And it was out to the media. And I still don't know how. And I really didn't want to go public because I was a Wikileaks supporter I was working I was working as a volunteer for Wikileaks that's how I met him it Wikileaks was really important to me I was working against the the war in Iraq and and Afghanistan and the truth I mean I was convinced that the truth about these force are going to be able to stop them. And that was naive, too, probably. But but then it leaked and it was it was unimaginable that it was going to be that big.

And that, of course, now I understand much more that it was weaponized by WikiLeaks enemies, of course. And that was very unfortunate for Wikileaks, but also for women. Because weaponizing sexual assault is not, I mean, we're not coming closer to solving the problem with men's violence against women by weaponizing these stories, like in my case. Do you feel any regret? I have done a lot of times, like, why did I go to the police? Why didn't I just shut my mouth up? Why did I support this woman to go to,

or why did I encourage her to go to the police? I mean, she was uncertain if she was going to go. And since I had been studying feminism for many years by then, it was like, you have to go to the police. That was a mantra that we were, I mean, you have to go to the police. This is the way to solve things, to make them public that these things happen. Even the good guys, even the left-wing guys, et cetera. So I was like, that was an an like automatic reaction like of course you have

to go to the police and then afterwards he's like i would not recommend any more women to go to the police because the consequences are so are so big and i mean you lose so much you take it you do it for for every woman but you get the punishment by yourself. And it's not sure that you're going to get back by others or by feminists or by other women at all. So you will have to know that it might happen that you will be on your own when you try to take this fight. Anna Arden talking to me a little earlier. And after we had spoken, she did say to me,

although she did regret going to the police, she still do the same today we have approached Julian Assange's lawyers for a statement on multiple occasions but have not received a response from them and if you have been affected by anything in our conversation there are links to support on our website now as I mentioned earlier Adele one of the biggest selling music artists on the planet has revealed in an interview that she will be stepping back from music temporarily after growing tired of the slog of fame and missing her old life. She talks about her tank being empty, something that has resonated with many of you. To talk about this further, I'm joined in the studio by author and broadcaster Emma Gannon. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Emma. You did the same, didn't you? You took some time out.

I did. And the tank being empty is very much my experience. You know, we have human limits and we can't keep giving and overgiving. So what did you do? What happened? Well, I actually ended up taking a year out, which I know is quite mad, but I had no choice. I was really unwell with burnout.

Like, you know, I was diagnosed with extreme chronic burnout, which meant I couldn't do anything. And I had to do the mundane, which I'd never done before because I was obsessed with work for so long. Like what what were the mundane things that you ended up doing? Oh I looked after a friend's dog and I spent ages hanging out the washing and I watched reality tv for the first time and and this was good for you? It was so good and it was really topping up those energy levels that had been so depleted like a sort of bank account being in debt, basically. What were the benefits?

I mean, you know, creative nourishment, getting ideas. I actually wrote a book called A Year of Nothing that came out, which was about my experience and really, I don't know, like found out who I was behind the shine of success and all that stuff. Did you feel guilty doing it? I did at first and then I really got into it. But yeah, of course, I thought we have to be producing at all times. It's how we're brought up and how society makes us feel. And also it's what we've seen our mothers doing

because they were the generation who didn't have the choice to do anything apart from just get on with it. But we are in a very different position. Adele, even more different, very privileged privileged she can afford to take time off um but what about us mere mortals what advice would it be we've got loads of people getting in touch about this what advice would you give people well i feel really inspired by adele because you know she's at the height of her success um and and actually all she wants to do now is sort of, you know, top herself back up doing nice things at home. And yeah, I don't I don't know. I just feel like we need to talk more about this in general. How did you talk to your family about it? I'm not functioning well. But I was a bit embarrassed about admitting it because I think being busy and being on

is a sign of health and well-being. But actually it can be the opposite. Sometimes you're like hiding so much under the cracks that are appearing. It's funny, isn't it? Exactly that, right? We all sort of feel like we have to say we're really busy and we're just doing stuff

rather than just going, well, I'm just exhausted. Yeah, exactly. I know we're so bad at doing nothing. And sorry, back to your question. It's not about like going on this fancy holiday or doing an eat, pray, love for a year. It's about the smallest moments of like,

if you put a timer on for 10 minutes and sit on your bedroom floor, that 10 minutes really is quite expansive. Time moves differently when you do nothing. And that is what I've taken away from it is just don't feel guilty. Even the pockets of time you can have will fill you back up. Oh, Emma, you can come back.

Giving us all permission not to feel guilty. I want to read out some of these brilliant messages that are coming in. I love Adele, but really old and grumpy and burnout at 36. Heaven help her when she gets to 70. I feel fully entitled to be grumpy at 70, though I try not to be. So someone that out from Evelyn. Another one here from Emma in West Sussex I took a two-year break from my work as a palliative care nurse to receive life-saving treatment for bowel cancer I've returned to work fully energized with a completely

different take on my life I no longer worry about the small stuff and rarely worry about the big stuff either I just try to fully engage in every moment and Sal in Dudley says I decided to take early retirement from teaching at 57 to be able to manage my life with osteoarthritis. My income dropped by 75%, but my quality of life soared. She says she open water swims, walks, gardens, crochets, read books, not talk to anyone for days if I choose. Life is good. I am lucky or fortunate. I love that. And that is what you would advise. So it's not the big eat, pray, love, just the small amounts of just doing something little for yourself.

Yeah, like the littlest, the better. Like I would, you know, around Christmas time, just look at the Christmas tree and the lights and like all of this stuff that is around you that is beautiful. Like if you go past some lovely flowers, stop and just look at them. And I really think this is the stuff that can help us because there's a lot of existential angst around at the moment of like what are we meant to be doing with our lives and I really think we're going back to the basics and it's making us feel good again and I'm going to end with another one here saying I left primary school teaching after a long 25 year career constant 70 hours a week took their toll on my on my tank was spent I now work three mornings a week at a local supermarket my balance is lowish but my tank was spent. I now work three mornings a week at a local supermarket. My balance is lowish, but my tank balance is thriving.

Thank you. Join me again tomorrow. Thank you, Emma. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Tom Heap. And I'm Helen Chersky. A journalist. And a physicist.

Ready to tackle the biggest issues on the planet. Each week on Rare Earth, a podcast from BBC Radio 4, we investigate a major news story about our environment and wildlife. We delve into the history. How on earth did we get here? We stir up the politics. Who's right and who's wrong? And we search for effective solutions to rising temperatures and collapsing wildlife. In our new series, we'll be learning how to reduce the destructive power of wildfires. And we'll be learning how to reduce the destructive power of wildfires and we'll be hearing how the most vulnerable communities are trying to flood-proof their cities. And we'll reveal the new phenomenon of green hushing.

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And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.