Woman's Hour - 'Net zero' - what is the general public willing to do to get us there? Challenging online abuse, Suffragette trees

Episode Date: October 25, 2021

Last week, a whole new set of climate-related phrases entered the Oxford English Dictionary including global heating, eco-anxiety and net zero. But despite being increasingly used in conversation, do people really know what terms like 'net zero' mean - and what is the general public willing to do to get us there? Prof Becky Willis from Lancaster University set up a research project called the Net Zero Diaries to try and find out. She talks about the latest results along with Pearl, who took part in the study. Chloe Tilley is also joined by Aneaka Kellay from the People Powered Retrofit project, to discuss what people on all sorts of budgets can do to reduce the carbon emissions from their homes.Staffing shortages have long been a problem for the UK's maternity services. There aren't enough midwives joining the profession and too many are deciding to leave. A survey by the Royal College of Midwives earlier this month found that over half were considering quitting thanks to burnout and concerns about safety and quality of care. Now the President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Dr Edward Morris, has told the Guardian newspaper about his 'increasing concerns' about the 'immense pressures' facing maternity staff as we enter another winter with rising Covid cases. So is there a crisis in labour wards? We hear from a London-based midwife and Dr Jo Mountfield, Consultant Obstetrician at University Hospital SouthamptonOver a century ago suffragettes planted an arboretum of 47 trees in Batheaston, each representing an activist. Today only one tree survives – a black pine planted by suffragette Rose Lamartine Yates in 1909. We discuss the history of the “suffragette wood” and plans to propagate the seeds of the last surviving tree with Dr Cynthia Hammond and artist Lucy Neal. We speak to BBC Specialist Disinformation Reporter Marianna Spring who is appearing in front of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee this week to present the findings from her BBC Panorama investigation into the rising online abuse against women, and how social media algorithms are promoting hate. Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Aneaka Kellay Interviewed Guest: Professor Becky Willis Interviewed Guest: Pearl Hassan Interviewed Guest: Dr Jo Mountfield Interviewed Guest: Dr Cynthia Hammond Interviewed Guest: Lucy Neal Interviewed Guest: Marianna Spring

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome. Good to have your company on this Monday morning. Now, we have an environmental theme running through today's programme. Ahead of the COP26 meeting of world leaders in Glasgow at the weekend, described by President Biden's climate envoy as the world's last best chance to avert climate catastrophe, the United Nations is warning of higher global greenhouse gas emissions by the end of this decade.

Well, we know that the Russian President Vladimir Putin isn't coming. China's President Xi hasn't yet made his plans public. But all the conversation surrounds the goal of reaching net zero. But what does that actually mean? We're going to drill down into that and what we can do as individuals, along with what governments could and should be doing. So my question to you this morning is, what are you willing to do to help tackle climate change?

What sacrifices would you make? Or are we actually reframing that wrong, that it's not a sacrifice but an opportunity? Well, you can text Woman's Hour on 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. Or perhaps, should the focus be on what the government should do, not just our government, but governments around the world? Should they force us into action or just give us a gentle nudge? Well, your thoughts welcome on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. And sticking with our green theme, we're going to be hearing about the little known suffragette wood planted by the women themselves that has

just a single tree remaining. Also, on the day the country's most senior gynaecologist warns mother's safety could be put at risk in maternity wards if staff are redeployed because of Covid like they were during the first wave. We've been contacted by a midwife who has told us labour wards are feeling like war zones and colleagues are working 24-hour shifts with no breaks to cover staff shortages. She's going to be with us live sharing her experiences and we're also going to be hearing from the BBC's disinformation reporter Marianna Spring ahead of her appearance before MPs about her investigation into online abuse, including her own trolling. But let's begin by talking about COP26. Less than a week to go

before that climate change conference in Glasgow. And the United Nations is warning that global greenhouse gas emissions are on course to be 16% higher by the end of this decade than they are right now. That's not the news that global leaders will be wanting to hear. Well, it comes as efforts are stepped up in this country to tackle emissions. Today, for example, we see a significant expansion to London's ultra low emission zone. That, of course, is an effort to improve air quality. But as world leaders meet to devise strategy, what about what we can do? And of course, how much we understand.

A whole new set of climate-related phrases have entered the Oxford English Dictionary in the last week. Terms like global heating, eco-anxiety and net zero. Well, that follows trends from 2019 when climate emergency became their word of the year after its use increased by nearly 11,000%. But despite us using these words more in conversation every day, do we really know what they mean? And what sort of changes are we, the public, willing to make to get us to a net zero world? Well, a study called the Net Zero Diaries has

been looking at these questions. It's going to be publishing its latest results tomorrow. But we're joined by Professor Becky Willis from Lancaster University to talk about what they've found out so far. And also joining us is Pearl Hassan, who took part in the research. Good morning to both of you. And Becky, I guess it makes sense to speak to you first about net zero what is it let's clarify that before we begin anything else and also how different our lives will look when we get there. Sure yeah so put simply net zero is the UK's target for climate change the zero refers to greenhouse gases so we need to stop putting greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide into the atmosphere to stop those dangerous changes to the climate. And we do that through changes to the way we generate electricity, how we heat our homes, how we travel about and changes to land use and farming.

So we need to stop using greenhouse gases or emitting greenhouse gases and shift to the alternatives. We know that it can be done. There's solutions, but it means quite a few changes to our lives. So we need to really communicate those changes and talk to people about how they can contribute. And so tell us, what are those changes going to be? Well, one that's been talked about quite a lot recently is how we heat our homes. So at the moment, most of us heat our homes using a fossil fuel gas, which emits carbon dioxide. So we're going to both have to make our homes much more energy efficient, make them

warmer and cosier, better insulated. And we're also going to have to switch over to electric forms of heating like heat pumps. Another area is transport. So we need to drive less, walk and cycle more. And there's health benefits there. And also to switch from petrol and diesel cars, because petrol and diesel are both fossil fuels, shift over to electric vehicles. Before we get to all of the details of that, and of course, the cost implications of that, which is always what people raise when when we talk about this let's talk about these diaries and then i want to bring perlin on our conversation who were the people that you got involved and what was the idea behind these diaries the idea behind the diaries is that we we know that the climate crisis is already affecting

us all and will increasingly affect our lives And yet politicians find it really hard to have a conversation with people about it. I mean, I did some research asking politicians why they weren't doing more. And they said they were worried that they wouldn't get public support for the changes. But actually, if you ask people that question, the research shows that concern about climate change is really high and people want leadership from government so there's this sort of breakdown in the relationship between people and politicians and so um myself and the net zero diaries team thought that what's needed is to have a proper conversation to talk to people about climate change, how it affects their lives, so that it's not just a conversation between experts.

So Net Zero Diaries is a way of providing a forum for ordinary people to give their thoughts directly to the government and to each other to make climate conversations part of everyday life. Becky, as you're speaking, I can see that Pearl Hassan, who's taken part in the research, is nodding away. And I want to bring you in, Pearl, because you have taken part in these diaries. I'm interested to know what your understanding was of things like net zero and reducing emissions before you got involved in this. Morning. Yeah, I was aware of it like we all are.

It's kind of always in the background and we're listening to things going on and I was selected as part of the Leeds citizens jury and um Pete Bryant got a group of people uh from across Leeds and um we all came together to sort of make a plan to make Leeds uh more carbon friendly to reduce our carbon footprint in leeds and it was so interesting and and and most of the people there some knew quite a bit some didn't know so much i was like you know i didn't know a great deal but one of the most um astonishing things i found that just just eating less red meat um like a couple of vegetarian meals a week that I didn't realize animals in fields were producing all this methane gas and a lot of other people on the panel was the same was lots of things we didn't realize as individuals

we can't blame the government for everything, but as individuals, we can all make a difference by making small changes throughout the day, throughout the week, that will reduce carbon emissions. Now, Becky, some people may be surprised to hear that Pearl didn't know, for example, that eating less red meat is good for the environment. Journalists have known that for a long time. Politicians have known that. Why do you think that message isn't getting through? Because it's not just going to be Pearl who thinks that. There will be lots of other people.

Yeah, I think there's quite a simple reason for that. Government hasn't tried to explain it to people and hasn't tried to talk to people about what their role is. And what we've learned from Net Zero Diaries and also from the local citizens' juries that have happened on climate change is that people are keen to play their part, but actually they're really confused about what to do.

And so we want to make you know, make the most of that sort of that background support and actually get people talking to each other, which is why we had, which is why we have people like Pearl involved, who did take part in that leads process and can talk about that and share her experiences with other people. So, you know, you tend to trust friends and family. You tend to want to get advice from people that you know, people so you know you tend to trust friends and family you tend to want to get advice from people that you that you know people like you and if we did have those climate conversations much more widely it would help to to um to build understanding and trust actually and the trust is really vital. Pearl what are the changes that you want to see and I mean we talked

at the beginning you know is it is it a sacrifice should we call it a sacrifice what are the changes that you want to see? And I mean, we talked at the beginning, you know, is it a sacrifice? Should we call it a sacrifice? What are you willing to give up to change? What do you want to see to happen? I don't think it's too much of a sacrifice. I mean, out of 21 meals a week, say, on average, now I'm down to about three meals of red meat and then about seven vegetarian and the rest is made up of fish and chicken. So we've made major changes in the way we eat. I've got solar panels. I know not everybody can afford those. I get that.

I try and replace white goods with AAA energy efficient appliances, a recycle. I don't drive, so, you know, I don't have a car. But my family, you know, we have cars in the family. But I think car sharing is a brilliant thing to do. You know, if you could give up some time to do car shares with people at work that take some cars off the road and lower your heating by a degree just little things like that that as individuals we can all make a massive difference with just little little things here and there that we can do to help becky and i'm interested to know and lots of people are getting in touch on

the text do join in with us this morning with this conversation 84844 on the text with people saying does it really make a difference if we do one thing so for example one text here we need to stop putting the blame and guilt onto individuals to make the changes the only way we'll get anywhere near the cot co2 reductions necessary is if governments and big businesses make system changes. They got us into this mess and they need to get us out. That's from Myla, who's in Chippenham. And there is that sense sometimes, isn't there, Becky, that why should I do something? And what difference will it make if I do something when big business and China isn't doing anything?

Absolutely. And I have a lot of sympathy with that. If it's all if the burden is all placed on you as an individual, it feels like, you know, it feels very demotivating because it's just, what Pearl and others say, is that if we can make this a collective challenge, and if people can tell government what changes they want government to do, then we'll feel that we're all in it together and we'll be much more likely to support changes. So, I mean, I would say that if you are making changes in your life, that's brilliant, but also make sure you talk about them. Make sure you tell your MP you're doing them. Knock on your MP's door. Tell him or her that you want action on climate change. Talk to your friends and family about it, and that way we won't feel alone and powerless.

Pearl, do you think that it works with nudging and the government suggesting? Or do you think that the government needs to bring in things? I mean, we're looking at the government's, it was just a couple of weeks ago, wasn't it? The government published its net zero strategy. And it was talking about ending the sale of new petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2030. As Becky's already talked about, talking about bringing in heat pumps instead of gas boilers. There is an expense attached to that. And for some people, that's going to be out of their reach. So, Pearl, do you think we should be forced or encouraged?

I think definitely the government should lead on this. I agree with what the lady said on the text that it's not all down to individuals. But collectively, we're all responsible we can't just we can't blame the government all the time um but they definitely should lead on it i mean personally i think there should be um nationalizing public transport um so that we have a safe uh reliable and affordable public transport system. And like, I think Monday to Friday, a lot of people would ditch the cars if they knew they could get to work on

time safely and quickly. I mean, some places it's like one bus an hour and you know, you can't risk being late for work and things like that. I mean, I'm retired now and that's not a problem for me anymore, but you know, you can't risk being late for work and things like that. I mean, I'm retired now and that's not a problem for me anymore. But, you know, the government can lead on so many things. And if we saw them be more proactive, I think it would encourage people to say, yeah, OK, we'll back you up and we're with you on this. But they have to lead on it and have to be stronger on it. Of course, if you live in a city, it's so much easier with public transport, because generally, if you're talking about, you know, London, Manchester, wherever, there's a strong public transport system there.

But as you say, if you live further afield and there's only one bus an hour, it makes it more challenging. One text which has come in here says the government should make greener cars affordable so that the less well-off can afford to go green. And I have to say, Becky, I'm in that camp. I desperately want to get an electric vehicle, but they're just so expensive. Yeah, I mean, what Pearl said about government taking the lead, that reflects public opinion more generally, that people actually want government to, show them what to do and b

make it easy and cheap for them so it's crazy that um you know electric vehicles are more expensive than petrol and diesel cars at the moment um it's it's um you know it's a real shame that electric heating systems like heat pumps are still more expensive. And there's lots that government can do through changes to the tax system, through just saying that they're going to change the law in five or 10 years time to make sure that, you know, heat pumps will be the norm. There's lots and lots of ways in that governments can change markets. And it's absolutely up to them to do that so that all the burden isn't on individuals. And so that, you know, it's not only something that people with the money can do. When people do say, you know, China is still emitting so many greenhouse gas emissions, we know that President Putin isn't coming to COP26, he's going to be zooming in.

When there are many of the world's biggest emitters not even signing up to cutting emissions to any great extent, if somebody's sitting in their house now and saying, well, I recycle a bit and I'm going to reduce my red meat consumption, I'm going to try and get an electric car, maybe put solar panels on my roof. What impact is that making? Is that a significant change that you are contributing as an individual? Because that is the concern. Yes. I mean, you know, does your vote count? It's the same point, isn't it? You know, everything adds up. But I would also say that that signal that we send through those everyday actions are really important. And it's the same on a national level. So it is frustrating to see some countries not stepping up to the plate.

But the best thing that the UK can do is to lead by example. And the more countries that are leading the way, the more that the economic benefits follow. And there are real advantages to being the first mover on this. You know, there are real advantages to our economy and going green. There's, you know, jobs in the new zero carbon industries. There are advantages to all of us personally in terms of, you know, low carbon diets tend to be a lot healthier. And, you know, we all know that walking and cycling are good for us. So it's not just, you know, doing this because it's the right thing for climate change.

There are all sorts of benefits to acting. Lots of you getting in touch with us on the text this morning and on social media can text us on 84844. Liz says, I'm prepared to do anything required, but I'm feeling frustrated at every turn. We wanted to fit solar panels, but couldn't find a firm with an audit trail which showed that slave labour wasn't used in the production process. Another one here saying nudging doesn't work well enough. It's obvious from the COVID-19 response on mask wearing. We need legislation and also a government that won't break the law. And Ali in the East Midlands says, get rid of the nearly 2 million wood burners in the UK, the worst source of pollution next to traffic fumes, burning millions of trees every year.

Install a heat pump and plant trees instead. Pearl, as you have conversations with people in Leeds as part of the citizens jury that you're on, and also with friends and family, do you get a sense that people are happy to be forced into action rather than gently nudged no i think uh the forcing i mean i've spoken to a lot of people about it and some some of my friends just aren't even interested at all you know or trees or you know they're not interested at all some are very interested um so it's i think we need you know better educate education for um for our children especially so that they grow up aware of it and working towards it um there's definitely mixed response some

people don't even believe in that zero they think it's just a lot of hype, you know, that's a load of rubbish. So it's going to be so difficult. But being part of that jury was a real eye opener to me. And I think if more people were aware of how serious it is, then more people would get on board with trying to help as much as they possibly could. And Becky, as we turn our attention to COP26, which starts at the weekend, what do you think is the role that world leaders need to do to get people to understand the terminology and the importance of what we can do, along with what governments can do? I mean, I would say the main thing that um that governments can do and that world leaders can do is have a really open and honest conversation with their people so a really open and honest conversation about the scale of the climate crisis and you know what's likely to hit us if we don't take action, but also a really positive conversation.

And it is a positive conversation about what we can do collectively to tackle that and actually how that, you know, strengthens our communities and improves our economies. So it's having that dialogue. And at the moment, I'm worried that politicians aren't brave enough to come out and have that conversation. But it's a conversation that people are ready for. Thank you both for joining us this morning. Grateful to you for your time. Professor Becky Willis from Lancaster University and Pearl Hassan, who took part in that research.

Well, it's all very well understanding and caring about the climate crisis, but doing something about it is another hurdle to get over entirely. Anika Kelly is with us and works for a project called People Powered Retrofit in Greater Manchester and it helps bring homeowners and local trades people together to bring down emissions. Anika, thank you for joining us. I know you've been listening to our conversation. What is it exactly that you say to homeowners to help them if they're feeling lost?

For example, we've had a text here from Sarah saying, we're trying to find an alternative to our boiler. It's very difficult to find anyone to advise us properly. A central heating boiler may need replacing soon, but I feel that the technology is not ready. Yeah, so thanks for inviting me on. We get a lot of people getting in touch with us from around Manchester and also around the country asking,

we want to do something about our home. What can we do? And I think there's actually a lot more we can do than people realise. So most of the building, most of the houses in the UK were built sort of during the Industrial Revolution. They're quite drafty. They're quite leaky. They were designed for coal fires.

And in this modern age, there's actually loads we can do revolution they're quite drafty they're quite leaky they were designed for coal fires and in this modern age there's actually loads we can do that a lot of people know about in terms of insulation you know improving our windows making that really airtight and draft proof and really reducing the amount of heat we actually need to keep warm so our homes can actually be warmer and pleasant for everyone and then we can think about things like low carbon heating, things like heat pumps, just like Becca was just saying in the last section. So there's tons we can do.

And actually, it has a bigger part to play than often people realise. So I was surprised to learn that a fifth of the UK's carbon emissions comes from the housing sector, and most of that is gas. So if you have a look at your energy bill and you compare the kind of kilowatt per hour, which is the KWH on your bills of the electricity and the gas, you'll see actually you use a lot more gas and you use more energy and gas you do in electricity. And I don't think people realise how much of an impact

gas has. So how expensive is this if people want to be making this effort i mean i i was reading earlier on a great tip of yours about stuffing bags up an unused chimney to stop heat escaping i mean that's a brilliant cheap option but i'm guessing not all of them are that cheap yes so there's a real scale so you know at the very sort of low cost level you can just start looking at just have a feel for where you're there are drafts in your homes you know is your kitchen and your bathroom often cold oh it's probably because there's lots of pipes going in and out the house and they haven't sealed around them properly that's fairly easy to sort out well as you say you know chimneys are designed to pull hot air out of a home and so

people often like hot you know like the look of chimneys um and sometimes light fires in them but not very often so you know draft proofing the chimney is going to make a huge difference to your warmth but obviously there is a scale so some people might spend you know very little in the hundreds of pounds some people could spend thousands of pounds and it could be tens of thousands but you've got to ask you know when people do home improvements they want a new kitchen or they're going to do an extension it's kind of rethinking how we think about buildings and saying actually into the future retrofits that's kind of making energy efficiency improvements your home it's just a normal part of what we do to improve our homes

and the money that you would normally spend to improve your home it's just about fitting in idea like understanding how to fit in insulation so yeah you talked about people had retrofit earlier um it's it can be complicated and um you know there's a lot to understand in terms of risk and complication with moisture and how things um impact your home so it's really worth getting good advice um i could talk about people had retrofit very briefly if you like yeah i mean it's important isn't it to have that link between local trades people who understand how to do this because it's all very, if you like. Yeah, I mean, it's important, isn't it, to have that link between local tradespeople who understand how to do this, because it's all very well if you've got the will, but if there isn't the local expertise,

it's not going to help you. Absolutely. So, you know, it isn't rocket science, but it is a slightly different way of understanding how buildings work when you start thinking about how heat travels and how moisture travels and how to make sure that any improvements

you make to your home won't cause any unintended consequences. So what we do in People Power Directorate Fit is support people right through the process so they can call us up and ask for some advice. We'll give some free advice for half an hour and then support them to get a home energy assessment. So that will really help them understand what's actually possible from those smaller measures right through to those larger measures and help them plan and make decisions and then sometimes some of the things that people might want to do like put on external wall insulation which is insulation around the outside of the building and might need design details or some kind of extra you know expert

insights as of how to make that work well and then finding contractors so you know it's really important to find contractors who will you know understand what you want to do and be able to do that work well and what we do in people powered retrofit is actually train contractors and support them to understand how to make the changes that that person's making looking to make in their homes. Anika listen listen, thank you so much for joining us. Grateful to you for your time this morning. Anika Kelly, who runs a project called People Powered Retrofit in Greater Manchester. Lots of you getting in touch this morning.

Suri says, I'm a fashion designer. I love clothes, but I'm buying less, choosing secondhand and only working with ethical and sustainable clients. I try and spread the word and encourage friends and family not to buy cheap fashion. Another one here says we would love to change our vehicles to hybrid, but the cost is prohibitive and infrastructure just isn't there. We are travelling trainers with a lot of kit, so public transport isn't an option. Do you add your voice to this conversation? You can text us on 84844 or at BBC Woman's Hour on social media. Now, staff shortages have long been a problem for the UK's maternity services.

There aren't enough midwives joining the profession and too many are deciding to leave. A survey by the Royal College of Midwives earlier this month found that only half were considering quitting thanks to burnout and concerns about safety and quality of care. Now the president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Dr Edward Morris, has told the Guardian newspaper about his increasing concerns about the immense pressures facing maternity staff as we enter another winter with rising Covid cases. We had a midwife contact us this morning saying,

things are really terrible at the moment. We are at crisis point and I don't think local management are facing that fact. Another midwife messaged us saying the labour ward she works in feels like a war zone. Well, that midwife, who we're calling Jane, joins us now. Good morning. Good morning. Hi. Hello. Hi. Thank you for joining us. Also with us is Dr. Jo Mountfield, who's a consultant obstetrician at University Hospital in Southampton.

Thank you for your time as well, Dr. Mountfield. Jane, speak to us first, if you would. I mean, saying that your labour ward feels like a war zone is going to run terror into many pregnant women's minds. So let's get a sense of perspective here. Just describe to us what it is that you're seeing, you're witnessing on your daily shifts. Hi, thank you for having me on the programme today.

So yeah, I just wanted to begin really by saying that, you know, we as midwives, we love our jobs. We work hard. We desperately want to provide brilliant, safe care to women and babies. I'm experienced when talking on behalf also of my colleagues who work at many trusts across london is that we are being um we're experiencing routine staff shortages to the point where um we never expect to have a full staff

ruled when we go to work we are working 14 to 15 hour shifts quite regularly, a mixture of days and nights. We don't get breaks. We often don't get bathroom breaks. I know of a colleague who last week at One London Trust worked 24 hours because when she finished her 13 hour shift without a break, there was no midwife to take over from to to care for her women and babies so she continued working throughout the night um i know of colleagues of mine who finished their 13 14 hour shift and are told you can't leave because there's no one to um take over from you so that is kind of a day-to-day um of what we're experiencing it feels like we're firefighting much of the time and picking up on from what you said regarding the

recent Royal College of Midwives survey we are aware that 57% of midwives are considering leaving the profession in the next six months so we are feeling very desperate and very alone. How much is this down to the long-standing shortage of midwives and how much of this is is being affected by covid i think it's kind of um we were already kind of i think around 2000 midwives short pre-pandemic um i think following on from that we're just feeling like we can't continue i think i know off the top of my head several colleagues that are kind of three to four years into their career and they've decided they can't continue because um care that we're trained to give, we can't give. I think a mixture of a 3% pay rise

working throughout a global pandemic, as well as Brexit, have all kind of contributed to just midwives thinking they can't continue this much longer. Is this a concern for what might happen to patients rather than what is happening? Clearly, if any pregnant women are listening, we don't want to scare them and frighten them about going into hospital. But equally, we need to explain the situation. I'm just wondering if a woman had given birth in your labour ward in recent weeks, would she be aware of

what you're telling us now? Or would she still be having a good high quality experience i mean the care that we give i hope and i think it's it's so important to kind of reiterate that to women who are due to have a baby soon we will deliver the best possible care that's what we're there to do i think the the concern and my concern for myself and my colleagues is at what price and i think it's at the price of midwives we are um we don't know how much longer we can continue like this and i think that if 57 of midwives are considering leaving the profession now that will ultimately result in women's care being affected because there is only so much we can we can cover up um at the moment we are being incentivized often um to work extra hours to bank to cover for the short staffing we are called on days off we go in at last minute's notice but that's just adding um to an already burnt out workforce and um i think there's we're kind of we're at crisis point now and it is a

midwife exodus and i just we're desperate for the government to take action and to listen to what we're saying are you worried you'll make a mistake all the time yeah we are concerned um at all of the kind of for example the east kent um uh trust that recently had um an investigation owing to what they call kind of avoidable deaths um it's really shocking scary language but i'm using it because it is how we feel we're in a very litigious area of health care already um and we we often most often we don't make mistakes we're brilliant midwives are brilliant at what they do, but we're not superhuman. And we have lives, we have mental health, we have physical health,

and we can't keep covering up for a complete crisis in staff shortages. Thank you for getting in touch with us. That's a midwife we're calling Jane. You'll understand why we're keeping her anonymous and also not mentioning the trust that she works for. Let's bring in Dr. Jo Mountfield, who's a consultant obstetrician

at University Hospital Southampton. Dr. Mountfield, when you hear what Jane tells us, I mean, it's chilling, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. It's a very worrying situation when we have staff reporting such levels of stress. And I think we know, we absolutely know that we've got shortages of midwives across the whole of the UK. I'd like to say within my own organisation, actually, the midwives are well staffed,

but we have a situation at the moment with the pandemic where we have a number of midwives who are off sick, much more than normal because they are self-isolating if they've actually got COVID themselves or they've got children or relatives that have got COVID so they need to stay at home and isolate so our sickness absence level is higher than it usually has been and that has been the case over you know the whole of the pandemic and then and so if you're trying to and there are other many other units where they have not got good levels of midwifery staffing. And I think compounding that is that there's also a shortage of doctors as well. We know we haven't got enough obstetricians, although we got some extra funding as part of the government initiative following the Ockenden report,

which was the report on Shrewsbury and Telford Trust, and we got extra funding for more midwives, for more obstetricians. It's about training those individuals. You can't train them instantaneously. So again, we know we've got more midwives coming through, but that all takes time. And at the moment, we started at a base where we needed to improve the numbers vastly. And what we would like to see is the 250 to 300 billion that was suggested in the health and social care report to the government. We'd like to see that being allocated to maternity in the budget next week. So just to be clear, the picture that Jane paints,

is that true across maternity wards across the country? It is not. Yes, I think there's a lot of concern about what's happening across the country. In terms of the burnout of the staff, the staff are providing a really good service. So please, if you're pregnant and you're coming into hospital, don't think it's going to be terrible and there's going to be nobody there to look after you. The staff are absolutely doing as much as they possibly can.

But we know in some services, things like centres, home births are not being offered. We know that some midwifery led units are not being staffed because we haven't got enough staff to offer the full range of choice for women to have their babies. And so it's about the stress for the staff and the potential to lose more staff when we're really trying very hard to put more staff in. That is a major concern for us. Also, how much of an issue is it still of pregnant women not being vaccinated for COVID-19? It's still an issue. And if I can say it, I've said it many times before on the media, but I'll say it again, the vaccine is safe.

We would highly recommend that all pregnant women get themselves a vaccine because it doesn't cause miscarriage, prematurity, any of the worries, whereas we are still seeing sick women coming in to our maternity units, some of them ending up in intensive care, having their babies early. And of course, if you've got women who are sick with a potentially preventable disease, we have to try and recommend what can stop that what can stop that having a vaccination it's not a hundred percent of course it's not but it will reduce the numbers and that's adding extra pressure on our services in terms of looking after women who are really unwell so yes please do go and have your vaccine if you're not certain look at the information on our website go and talk talk to your midwife, your GP, your obstetrician to have the conversation. Dr. Jo Mayerfield, thank you for

your time this morning, Consultant Obstetrician at University Hospital Southampton. We did approach the Department of Health for a statement. We are still waiting to hear back from them. Now, let's talk about a little known legacy of the suffragettes a place once known as suffragettes wood or annie's arboretum over a century ago these activists planted 47 trees in the grounds of eagle house a refuge for suffragettes in bath eastern now today only one of the trees survives it's a black pine it was planted back in 1909 by one suffragette. Now, the person who discovered the history of this tree is Dr Cynthia Hammond, Professor of Art History at Concordia University.

And we're also joined by the artist Lucy Neal from the Walking Forest Project, which is using seeds from this historic tree for a new cause, climate change. Good morning to both of you. Good morning. Good morning to both of you. Good morning. Now, Dr. Hammond, first of all, just explain to us why were the suffragettes at this house in the first place, Eagle House, where these trees were planted? Well, we're talking about the period just prior to World War One, when the pro-suffrage movement in England had become, in certain branches, militant.

And it was the Women's Social and Political Union, the WSPU, that was getting arrested. And once they were arrested, they were force-fed in prison, which was a kind of political torture. And when they came out of prison, they were often very unwell. Some women died coming out of prison, and they needed somewhere to go because they were wanted by the police. So there was this very pro-suffrage family just outside Bath in Somerset who had a large house, a very large property, and they wanted to do something. They were themselves also members of the WSPU, so they decided to begin to welcome suffragettes who were in need of care at their home.

And so it's not clear where the idea came from for the planting, but there was a lot of symbolism in the planting and almost a hierarchy as to what was planted for which suffragette. Yeah, that's right. The whole family were amateur naturalists. They all loved plants and trees. And the suffragettes, many of them were theosophists, so seeing the divine manifest in nature. But I've been through all the diaries. I don't find where exactly the idea came from. But yes, there is mention of an idea of a field of trees in Mary Blacklade's diary. And you see throughout the years 1909 to 1912, this very excited animated

discussion of who was coming and whose tree would be planted and photographing the women. So yes, there was a very clear order in the field of trees. It was arranged kind of concentrically, the trees were arranged concentrically around one central tree, which belonged, was planted for Emmeline Pankhurst, who was famously seen to be the heart of the pro-suffrage movement. And so if you were close to Emmeline Pankhurst, your tree would be planted quite close to hers. So Annie Kenny, the famous working class suffragette, her tree, which was a loss in Cyprus, was planted very, very close to Emmeline Pankhurst.

Now, sorry, I was just going to say, it came to the point, didn't it, where when the suffragettes became more militant the family decided not to take them in any longer and and this arboretum just grew and grew and grew but then in the 1960s there was in the 60s there was a housing development built and a frantic attempt to save as much of the trees and the plaques as was possible. Yes, that's right. So this was a time in Bath when buildings were being torn down all over the place and there was a fight to save Eagle House, but nobody was paying any attention to what was happening with the field of trees. So in fact, it was a local girl and her brother who raced in ahead of the bulldozers and gathered up these lead plaques that the family had put just in front of each of the trees saying the name of the suffragette the day it was planted.

So they knew they were wrestling history, but they couldn't save the trees. And so how did you track down this single surviving tree? So there was in 2008 a collection of the photographs of the suffragettes with their trees that was scanned and put online and I went looking for the owner of the photographs but the website manager said that they wanted their identity kept private. So I had looked at, of course, the site from a distance, and I had seen that there was still one huge tree. And I didn't know for certain that it was a suffragette tree, but I had my hopes. So I went door to door.

There was about 30 houses in the development, and I went door to door with some small evergreens because all the trees that were planted were conifers or holly trees. And I offered a little tree in exchange for people's memories or anything that they might know about this history. And it was through this that a couple said to me, well, if you want to know about the suffragettes, you've got to go across the road. And there you'll find Mary Frayling. She has all the photographs. So this, in fact, was the woman who with her brother had rushed in to save the plaques. And it was her family who had bought Eagle House, and also saved that piece of heritage as

well. So once I met Mary, I met the one person who had a living memory of the field of trees. So between her photographs, her living memory, and archival documents, I was able to create a map of the whole arboretum. And from there, I could deduce that that one black pine or that one Austrian pine, only one black pine had been planted for a suffragette. And it had been planted in that place. So I knew it was a suffragette tree belonging to Rose Lamartine Yates. And what's great to hear is that it is now protected so that we know that this tree

is not now going to be torn down. Do stay with us, Dr. Hammond, because I want to bring in Lucy Neal from the Walking Forest Project, because I know that you were given permission to visit this tree, weren't you? And it had quite an impact on you, didn't it, Lucy? Yes, I'm one of four artists with Ruth Bentovim and Marie Culhane and Shelley Castle forming Walking Forest.

And we made a visit to it in the summer, I think, of 2018. And the impact was immediate. It was compelling, fascinating. It's a huge huge tree but the longer we spent with it simply to put your hand on the bark is to feel time sort of moving backwards and forwards and it was with great humility to realize that we four were we were seeing something that we realized rose would never have seen but to understand the power of the story of the tree is to connect back to the intention with which Rose planted it over a hundred years ago which was knowing fighting as they were to change the way

women were represented in society they planted these trees knowing that they would not necessarily see the outcome and there there we were, four. The tree is so big that the four of us putting our arms around it could barely touch. And therefore, its immensity, its power today to give courage and fortitude and comfort and strength is, you know, here we are talking about it. So trees' powers to gather and convene and connect is never ending, and this one particularly so. And I said in the introduction that you're using seeds from this tree. So just explain a little bit about that. And you want to plant a new woodland.

Yes, but Walking Forest is inspired not only by the activism of women in the past, but the courage of earth defenders today standing up to bring about the changes that this whole programme has been dedicated to. And the discovery that suffragettes had planted trees and the discovery of Rose's tree. And we were in a sort of ferment of excitement, as Cynthia has also narrated, about researching earth defending today, researching the individual suffragettes such as Rose. And it was in meeting the tree and realising that potentially we could gather up the seeds from the pine cones and it was Shelley when visiting heard them sort of pop and realised that they could well be viable and we have now in Shelley's care and now others too propagated we call them the radical sisters and two of them are now three foot high but at the heart of Walking Forest is this sense that if we have the strength and courage to look to the future, unimaginable realities can come about when we connect and work together and have a sense of agency.

And this tree alone is giving us the sense of those unimaginable realities. The seed is so tiny. It's like a small peppercorn in your hand. And yet one pine cone alone could possibly propagate an entire forest. So it's nature's unending own fortitude and powers of restoration that can keep us all daily, you know, with the courage to keep making the changes that we need to make. And I wish we had longer to talk about this because I know that seeds from the tree are going to be making its way up to COP26, which we were talking about earlier on in the programme. Listen, thank you so much for speaking to us. It's great to have you on the programme this morning. That was Lucy there speaking to us, Lucy Neal, an artist from the Walking Forest Project.

So many of you getting in touch with us about that conversation we were having with our anonymous midwife talking about she described it like a war zone on her maternity ward and ed has got in touch via email saying the pressures on midwife staff described by jane is exactly the same that my partner has been experiencing for months on emergency departments in london huge amounts of overtime going unpaid and increased stress experienced by doctors we've had an anonymous tweet here saying, thank you to the midwife who spoke this morning. What she reported is very similar to what's happening at my trust too. There will be catastrophes if the staffing crisis is not addressed quickly.

We will always put our women and our babies first. Thank you for getting in touch with us. If you want to do the same, you can text us on 84844. Now, Facebook whistleblower Frances Horgan will give evidence to MPs today as part of the government's plans for social media regulation. The committee is scrutinising the draft online safety bill, which places a duty of care on social media companies to protect users. Well, for women in the public eye, online abuse is often a regular occurrence. Last month on Woman's Hour, we spoke to Amy Hart, a Love Island contestant back in 2019. She had just appeared in front of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sports Select Committee describing the online

abuse that she's faced as a social media influencer. Well, tomorrow, Marianna Spring, who is the BBC's specialist disinformation reporter, is going to be appearing in front of the same committee to present the findings from her recent BBC Panorama investigation, Online Abuse, Why Do You Hate Me? And Marianna's here with me in the studio. Morning. Morning. Good to have someone in the studio with me. Always nice to see someone here with me. Tell me, first of all, about the sort of messages that you get on, I mean, it's not a weekly basis, it's a daily hourly basis, isn't it? Yeah, it's pretty much a daily basis. And these messages, abusive messages are worlds apart from

criticism and debate and discussion. I expect that I cover online conspiracy theories, anti-vaccine movement, the anti-vaccine movement, other forms of disinformation on social media. But unfortunately, it's triggered a range of really horrific threats, rape threats, death threats, people threatening to come to my house to behead me and harm me, comments about sexualized violence, gendered slurs. And what really struck me and what inspired the Panorama investigation in the first place is that I am far from alone. Women across the public eye, whether that's politicians or influencers, but also women outside of the public eye,

everyone from librarians to firefighters to teenage girls have got in touch with me to talk about their experiences of online hate. And it takes a very similar form to the hate I get, gendered slurs, threats, often very sexualised comments and remarks. Before we talk about your investigation, you're going to the Select Committee tomorrow. It's not that usual, is it, for a BBC journalist to go and give evidence. So, I mean, it is an important statement that your investigation is being looked at. Yes, it's definitely an opportunity to talk about what the investigation reveals and what it tells us about the part that social media sites play in online hate targeting women in particular. The session itself is focused on online harms towards women and girls. And so I plan to talk about several of the findings from our investigation. One of them is to do with a dummy troll account that

we set up in order to test the algorithms on the social media sites. The algorithms are the software that essentially pushes different recommendations and suggestions to you. We set up this fake account called Barry, based on accounts that send me abuse. It was predominantly engaged in conspiracy content, anti-vaccine content, but also in some misogynistic content, and it posted remarks on on its private wall so it didn't send hate out to anyone and what we found we created this profile across the five main social media sites and we found that after a week but particularly after two weeks and that on Facebook and Instagram in particular and this account was being pushed suggested almost exclusively misogynistic content and some of that was really disturbing memes about sexual violence, about rape.

Some of it linked to the incel movement, which is an internet subculture that essentially believes that men's dissatisfaction with life can be blamed on women. And it was just very disturbing to see. Facebook, which also owns Instagram, told us that they do try to not promote this kind of hateful content and that they prioritise the safety of their community over profit. And they have introduced a number of new measures to protect public figures, women particularly, from online hate. But nonetheless, it was really, really shocking to see how quickly this Barry the Troll was engulfed in this world of misogyny and how much that could embolden someone like this to send out more hate

or to get really swept up in some pretty nasty stuff on social media. Now, if people haven't seen your panorama, and I would urge them to seek it out on the iPlayer because it is, well, there's moments in it that are incredibly emotional and very worrying. I mean, there was one moment where you actually had a telephone conversation with a man who has trolled you. He agreed to be recorded. Just tell us about that. So I spent quite a lot of time trying to track down the different people who've been sending me abuse. And what struck me is that a lot of them are really quite normal. They'll use their real pictures and their real names. They have hobbies and lives and friends. They support football teams. They go shopping in Ocado, all kinds of different stuff. And Steve, who was the

troll who agreed to speak to me, is a van driver from the Midlands. And when we spoke on the phone, I think he did start to understand the impact of some of the gendered slurs that he'd been sending me. And he actually admitted at the end of the call, oh, I sort of wish I didn't really use Facebook because I can see how I end up having these really negative and nasty conversations. And I think that what this investigation has revealed to me has been twofold, not just the harm that is being caused to women in and out of the public eye by this kind of hate

and this kind of hateful misogyny online, but actually to people like Steve or like Barry the fake troll, whose lives are also being ruined by what they're seeing on their social media feeds and are behaving in a way that's just totally disinhibited. We talked, I mentioned in the introduction, about Love Island. You've talked about women, but race is also an element in this, isn't there? And you spoke to two women who'd been in Love Island, one a black woman, one an Asian woman, about the abuse that they've got. Yes, I did. Kaz and Priya both spoke to me about

the abuse they've experienced. They've been overwhelmed with really positive comments, but they also have had some really, really nasty abuse that focuses on them being women. But in Kaz's case, that focuses on her being black, and in Priya's case, on her being South Asian. And they found that abuse particularly disturbing, quite frightening, quite worrying and exclusive research that was part of the program by the think tank Demos actually revealed how having analyzed 90,000 comments across social media, female contestants from reality television are subject to far more hate than their male counterparts and that's obviously worse when it's combined with racism or homophobia or transphobia. And so it's really, in many ways, a useful microcosm to analyse. It allows us to see how the hate that women and men

experience is different in volume, but also different in nature. It was very sexualised, focused on their appearance, focused on their gender. They were targeted for being women. And you also spoke to the former Australian Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, the former leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson, as politicians. I almost said you would almost expect it, which is a dreadful thing. But in the world in which we live, it does feel like a woman in politics puts her head above the parapet. They will get abuse, clearly not acceptable. But you also spoke to a doctor who'd been getting a lot of abuse because she'd just been encouraging people to have the COVID vaccine. That was what was most shocking was the universality of this abuse and how everyone from politicians to a frontline doctor who uses Twitter to tell

people to get the jab have been subject to similar kinds of rape threats, death threats, gendered abuse. I think when I spoke to Ruth Davidson and also Julia Gillard, they both made a point about how worried they are for how this abuse can deter young women from going into politics, can put them off public life. But actually the doctor, Dr. Rachel Clark, who I interviewed, said the same thing, that she worries that young women online see this and expect this as a normal part of public life when they all agree that it's anything but normal. Tell us some of the responses. You've mentioned what Facebook have said, but Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, the police, just give us a sense of what people are saying.

So in response to our investigation, all of the social media sites reaffirmed their commitments to tackle online hate and say that they do what they can to remove it from their platforms and that they don't tolerate it. They say that they have different systems and mechanisms that they use to try and do this. They don't always suspend accounts. Sometimes they will. They don't always remove accounts. Sometimes they will suspend or restrict them. The police similarly came back to say that they take online abuse very seriously and that the investigation into the hate I receive is ongoing.

But this investigation on the whole has raised serious questions about all of the systems in place to protect women, whether that's on social media, whether that's the police, whether that's policymakers. And so it feels like an important step to be able to talk to those policymakers tomorrow and to emphasise the findings from this panorama. There's a moment in the programme where you get emotional because a UN researcher who's looking at this says she's concerned for your safety and you talk about how tiring it is. It's a constant worry. Are you OK now? It's not very easy to deal with. I really love doing my job. I think it's really important. But the fears for your physical safety are the most difficult. I worry about walking home. I worry about where I'm staying at night. And it might seem a bit bizarre and people probably think, oh, it's, you know, it's just happening online.

Surely it doesn't translate offline. But the UN commissioned research actually shows that quite often it does. One in five of the women who responded to their survey said they've experienced stalking, harassment and other forms of hate offline that have been linked to what they're getting online. And it's really sad to speak to women from doctors to influencers to politicians to just teenage girls messaging me, telling me that they are really frightened that someone might hurt them. Marianna, stay safe. Thank you ever so much. Good luck tomorrow. That's the BBC specialist disinformation reporter,

Marianna Spring. Thank you for your company today. Thank you for all of your messages. I'll be back at the same time tomorrow here on Woman's Hour. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. I hope you can join us again next time. Thanks for listening to the podcast.

I'm here to tell you about Deadhouse. Deadhouse is a trilogy of immersive audio horror shorts by Darkfield and BBC Radio 4. Each of the three episodes, Bethlehem, Salem and Xanadu, takes a different look at the separation between mind and body, placing you in the centre of disconcerting environments that feel unnervingly real. So, if you like original horror, put your headphones on, close your eyes and meet yourself in the Dead House. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

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