Woman's Hour - Netball, Ashling Murphy, Adult Literacy, Universities & NDAs

Episode Date: January 18, 2022

Yesterday on Woman's Hour we talked about the outpouring of grief in Ireland and beyond about the murder of Ashling Murphy. Today we are looking at solutions to ending violence against women. Sarah Benson, CEO Women's Aid Ireland joins Chloe. Universities are being called on to end the use of Non-Disclosure Agreements to silence complainants in sexual harassment cases by signing up to a new pledge today. Higher Education Minister Michelle Donelan MP joins Chloe to discuss her concerns that some establishments are also using the legally-binding contracts to deal with other problems such as abuse, and other forms of misconduct which stops the victims from speaking out and protects the reputations of perpetrators. Nearly seven million adults in the UK have very poor literacy skills – many of whom are too ashamed or embarrassed to ask for help. What impact can struggling to read and write have on a women’s life long-term? Ginny Williams-Ellis is the CEO of Ready Easy UK, a charity offering free one-to-one reading coaching. Sarah Todd used Read Easy back in 2015. Has sharing the realities of parenting gone too far? Journalist Rose Stokes is pregnant and has been getting loads of horror stories of birth and parenting from friends, family and strangers. We talk to her, and psychotherapist Anna Mathur. Former England Netball captain Ama Agbeze on the Vitality Roses defence of their Commonwealth title later this year. Tonight they take on World number one's Australia in London in the annual Quad series. We'll look how that win in 2018 developed the elite game in England.Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Picture credit: Steven Paston/PA Wire

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, hello, welcome to the programme. Now today, Aisling Murphy, the 23-year-old woman murdered whilst running along a riverbank in Ireland, will be laid to rest. Yesterday here on Woman's Hour, we talked about the outpouring of grief in Ireland and beyond. Today, we're looking at the solutions to ending violence against women. Well, it comes as peers in the UK House of Lords voted to make misogyny a hate crime as part of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, therefore defeating the government.

Meanwhile, the government is also calling on universities this morning to end the use of non-disclosure agreements to silence victims in sexual harassment and misconduct cases. They aren't putting it into law, but the Higher Education Minister, Michelle Donnellan, tells me she believes it's a moral contract between universities and students. You'll hear more on that later in the programme. Also, are parents too willing to share the realities of life with children?

We're going to speak to the journalist Rose Stokes, who's pregnant with her first child, and she says she has been bombarded with what she calls horror stories. So where is that balance between equipping parents with knowledge to prepare themselves and terrifying them? We're also going to be speaking to the former England netball captain Ama Amboise about the Vitality R' defence of their Commonwealth title later this year. Tonight, England take on world number one Australia in London in the annual quad series.

We're going to look at how that win in 2018 developed the elite netball game here in England. We're also going to be speaking to a woman who at the age of 14 was unable to spell her name or tell the time. Coming from generations who struggled with literacy, it was actually having children and the desire to read them a bedtime story that prompted her to ask for help. And also this morning, we're looking for your wins, big and small. January can be a tough month anyway, but with the added shadow of Covid what are the things that are getting you through we're celebrating a few of them this morning on the programme England's netball victory over New Zealand on Sunday how literacy can open doors and enable you to read

to your children so share some of your stories with us this morning you can text Women's Hour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can reach out to us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or of course email us through our website. Now one win we want to share with you this morning is the story of Tracey Scholes, a bus driver from Manchester. She came on this programme and claimed she was being forced to leave her job after more than 30 years because she couldn't drive the new fleet of buses for Go Northwest. It's because her feet couldn't reach the pedals without her actually creating a blind spot. Clearly not safe. Well, the good news is she's been reinstated.

She can now drive buses with adaptable wing mirrors. You see, another win. So they don't have to be big wins. They can be wins in your life. We want to hear what's getting you through. It can be the simplicity of watching a robin in your garden. It can be seeing the spring bulbs when you're out for a walk. It can be completing a challenging module on your course. Whatever it is that's getting you through on this Tuesday morning, do share it with

us. You can text us on 84844. Now, in just under an hour's time, the funeral will be held for 23-year-old Irish primary school teacher Aisling Murphy. She was attacked and killed whilst out running on the bank of the Grand Canal in Tullamore last Wednesday afternoon, that's in Ireland. Her killer has not yet been found. Well, as well as her family and boyfriend, the Irish President Michael D Higgins and the Taoiseach Michael Martin and the Justice Minister Helen McEntee are all going to be at her funeral. Many schools and colleges across Ireland will observe a minute's silence at 11 o'clock this morning. Well, yesterday on Woman's Hour, we spoke about the outpouring of grief at Aisling's

violent death and what should now happen to tackle violence against women and girls. Well, let's speak to Sarah Benson, CEO of Women's Aid Ireland, to discuss what that would actually look like in terms of policy, in terms of practice, in terms of practical solutions to tackle the problem of violence against women and girls. Sarah, thank you for your time this morning. Hi, good morning. Now, we know that many people, when we hear of these horrifying attacks, talk about things being a watershed moment. And sadly, not a lot seems to change. But I do get the sense that around Aisling's murder, there has been a lot of conversation about this has to be a watershed moment because things have

to change. Do you get a sense that there is a sense of urgency to truly tackle this issue? I think at the moment moment what everybody's feeling and has been feeling for the last number of days is that there's a great weight in the country, there's a great sadness and a real distress but also very much underpinning that is a real sense of anger and outrage and with that in mind I hope that this will be a tipping point. Women's Aid Ireland have maintained the femicide report since 1996 and Aisling is one of 244 women who have died in that time through violence.

And I think we also have an opportunity in this country, both with the development of our new national domestic sexual and gender-based violence strategy, but also at a broader social level in terms of the conversations we're having now. At the same time,

I think we need not to squander the opportunity. I was reading an article by Jane Monckton-Smith, who would be well known in the United Kingdom for her work on femicide. And she noted a word of caution to us in Ireland that nearly a year on from Sarah Everard's murder we you have lost a hundred women to violence in in the UK as well so I think we we shouldn't be complacent about this there needs to be a very active measures you know the

flowers will fade the candles will be gone but we need to actually take the feelings that we have now and we need the men in our communities who are also you know we need to actually take the feelings that we have now. And we need the men in our communities who are also, you know, showing up to actually take those feelings and put them to work. You mentioned there this new national strategy on domestic, sexual and gender based violence, which Ireland's Justice Minister says she's intending to publish at the start of March. Do we have much detail on what it will contain? We don't yet, but what I would say is that this is the first national strategy which has been produced since Ireland ratified what's known as the Istanbul Convention, and that's the convention to combat all forms of violence against women and girls. And so there's four key pillars, which are protection, prevention, prosecution,

and also policy, integrated policy. And this plan is being structured along those four lines. It also had a far greater and more in-depth process of consultation than previous plans. So there's reasons to be optimistic that it will have strong commitment. What it will be is high level, though, and what will be really important is to see how that cascades down, also how all of government takes responsibility for it,

and how it is resourced critically. And you talk about government, and there has been some criticism, hasn't there, that in some ways, this strategy is going to straddle several departments. And I guess the question being whether this should sit with one department rather than being somewhat fragmented. So the recent strategies have sat predominantly with our Department of Justice. And I would commend our current Minister for Justice and indeed previous ministers, particularly the women who have driven that and made real commitments to it. But the reality is that to combat such a wide-ranging social issue

as all forms of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, we need to be holding all of the relevant departments accountable. And for victims of domestic violence, for example, that involves housing or domestic accommodation provision is not currently attached to our national housing and homeless strategy, which is just incredible. And that needs to change. Education is crucial for us to actually see this behaviour and attitude change, you know, be built in across generations. Because really, you know, we are talking, as happened in the aftermath of Sarah Everard's murder and other awful murders, you know, around women's safety in public spaces and in private spaces. inequality which is actually enabling and facilitating those who um would act in you know the most egregious uh ways uh in terms of sexual and physical violence against women and

girls and practically we're talking education aren't we and and these kind of things they take a long time to change views don't this is not going to happen overnight this is about as well educating young boys in school as well as men and you know we're clearly not saying that all men have these views and that all these and all men need to to challenge their attitudes but there clearly are certain sectors who do sure now my apologies my internet connection just went there slightly so i hope i i got what you said and uh and i hope you can hear me OK. But with respect to boys, yeah, absolutely. And education.

We've been running in Ireland since 2011 our 2 Into You campaign, which is targeting 18 to 25-year-olds predominantly. But we've conducted national research in recent years to try and assess the prevalence of intimate relationship abuse amongst young people. And we found that one in five young women in Ireland will be subjected to abuse by a current or former partner by the age of 25, 51 percent before they're 18 years old. So, you know, we clearly have a problem. But to address that, we can't be looking at punitive measures against boys necessarily because this is their first intimate relationships, in many cases, same as girls' intimate relationships.

So if their first one is one where there is perhaps aggressive sexual boundary pushing, indeed sexual assault, coercive control, then we have a real problem. But the way to address it has to be through education. These are learning opportunities. And we have some really excellent programs at third level around consent. But to be frank, if we aren't actually talking with boys and girls, you know, in a structured, non-ethos driven, gender informed way from the very youngest ages, really the opportunity is lost by by third level because all of those inbuilt stereotypes those perceptions of you know what it is to be a boy what it is to

be a girl how women should be um you know that hypersexualization that is still really problematic and i would say we have a real issue in terms of tackling the issue of pornography and how young boys in particular are exposed to that and the damage that that does to them as well. So education is absolutely key and that's going to be a crucial pillar of this strategy. The peers in the House of Lords last night voted to make misogyny a hate crime in the UK, defeating the government.

Is misogyny a hate crime in Ireland? It's not currently. In fact, we are actually, we've been going through a series of reviews in relation to establishing hate crime legislation and very interesting discussions as to what, you know, what kind of categories we might consider. And I have to say, I kind of speaking personally, have kind of evolved over the years on the one hand you know this idea that you know in Ireland women make up 52 percent of the population so why on earth would we be saying it's a hate crime when it's if it's so endemic that you know we have to home in on it being hatred but at the same time if we want something to shift maybe it is now time to name

that and just say that you, the vast majority of male violence against women is underpinned by, you know, a level of misogynistic hatred, because why else would, you know, the most unsafe place for a woman to be is her own home, you know, in terms of risk factors. So I think we do have a serious problem and perhaps it takes these really radical and explicit articulations for us to a policy level to actually call this out and make change. Sarah Benson, thank you for your time this morning. That's Sarah Benson, CEO of Women's Aid Ireland. Lots of you getting in touch with us with your small wins or big wins this morning. January, difficult month, isn't it? We've got the shadow of Covid hanging over us still. We want to know what is making the difference to you

one text just come in here I've just moved house from a busy city to the countryside and I've been delighted to hear owls hooting at night plus bell ringing practice on a Wednesday evening absolute bliss and another one here says my win today is in support of the NHS new prosthetic legs enabling me to walk more confidently

a supportive reassuring and proactive call from my GP yesterday Thank you for sharing those with us. Keep them coming in 84844 on the text or at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now nearly two thirds of the world's illiterate adults are women. Here in the UK nearly 7 million adults have very poor literacy skills, many of whom are too ashamed or embarrassed to ask for help. So what impact can struggling to read and write have on women's life long term? We can speak now to Ginny Williams-Ellis, the CEO of Read Easy UK. That's a charity offering free one-to-one reading coaching. And also with

us is Sarah Todd. Now, she struggled to write her name or tell the time when she was 14, but she used Read Easy back in 2015 to learn those skills. Thank you both for joining us this morning. Sarah, I want to start with you. Just tell us briefly, if you would, about your story. Some people will be amazed that in this country, you at the age of 14 didn't have those skills yes good morning um thank you for having me on um yeah I went through obviously primary school and near the end they realized how severely dyslexic I was not being able to recognize my own name um going into middle school um I tried to do the mainstream classrooms but I struggled severely and there was a lovely special needs teacher named Mr Thompson who put me into a special

needs classroom he wanted to see how severely dyslexic I was had to pull my mum and dad in and say she's not going to make it anywhere because she can't spell her own name. She can't tell the time and she literally is so far behind. And she, you know, she's still at reception age. And they were devastated, but they were more like, OK, what do we need to do to help her? So I went through middle school with all this support, trying to learn the basics basics which I should have learned in primary school but due to being very sick when I was in primary school I missed a lot of that vital you know the phonics the number recognition and I lost a lot of that through being poorly um and then coming to the upper school was meant to have still support but I didn't get as much support so then as a teenager

you become stubborn and a bit like I'm not listening no more you're not listening to me I'm not listening to you um and I learned to have a very I'm gonna do it myself attitude which didn't get me very far then obviously left school with a few GCSEs which I was really chuffed that I got um and then going out into the big wide world of work now it must have been tough very tough because when I originally started to go out into work you had to fill in like the paper application form sometimes it takes people like half an hour an hour boom done it took me and my dad up to three to four hours just to fill in an application form because it was constantly having to write something down then having to copy what I've written down then having to if I don't understand that question having to try and

figure out and my dad being like it's simple you just need to okay that's fine so then stopping and he just was like do you want me to do it for you I was like no I have to do this myself and the amount of times he would end up having to do it for me because I just get so upset not understanding simple instructions like um where do you live what's your address um it just was frustrating and then going into work that was a nightmare because if I made mistakes like if it says danger and I didn't recognize danger electric or danger hot surface the amount of times I burnt myself or someone shout don't go in there not why well it does say do not enter oh yeah oops and I'd pay the silly jack oh yeah you know I was just making sure that you were

paying attention in my head thinking this is really not good so what did that do to your your confidence and your ability to stop to read I stopped even attempting to read I stopped attempting to try and vocalize the fact that I was now so far behind that I would just play the you know the cheeky sarcastic kid that you know everyone thought was really funny. And then as a teenager, I just became this sarcastic kid, you know, sarcastic lady that everyone kind of just thought was a bit of a joke. And it was only, you know, once having children and then becoming a single parent. And you've got all this paperwork and you've got all these bills and you've got people knocking on your front door because you're so far behind and then your dad

comes around because he was watching full-time and I'm like I've got this letter this person came to see me I don't know what's going on and apparently I've got the bailiffs coming what do I do and he was like when did you get this letter I was like Monday and this is now like Thursday and he was just like why didn't you call me? Because I was too embarrassed. You were busy. You were working. Don't worry about it.

Be fine. And he's like, it's not going to be fine. We need to get on to these people now. But sometimes we would contact the people. And as soon as you say the word, I'm dyslexic. They go, are you? Well, that's okay. We'll put it on our records. And it's almost like they put a bit of tape around you to say she's going to fall for anything we tell her because she doesn't understand.

Stay with us, Sarah, because I want to bring in Ginny because Ginny, give us a sense of how common Sarah's experience is here in the UK. Good morning. Well, it's very common. It's much, much more common than most people realise. I'm just in England, there are two and a half million adults who can barely read or can't read at all, who are at the lowest levels of literacy. And in some parts of the country, that's up to 10% of the working age population. So it's a much wider problem than most people realise. And how are people, I mean, we heard how Sarah was slipping through the net. Is that a common reason why people are leaving school in this country

without being able to read and write? Yes, Sarah's story is very, very typical. The emotions she describes around it as well are so common. And the fact that it's so embarrassing makes it really difficult for people to ask for help. And then often there is no help out there anyway. And it's very, very difficult as well, even with adult education classes for adults at the lowest levels. It's really difficult to admit you've got a problem and go into a classroom. So it's much easier to hide. So Sarah, it was having your children,

having your twins that made you say, I want to read to them. That was the thing that kind of really spurred you on to get this one-to-one help. It kind of broke me because, sorry, your children, you sit down with them and you read with them. You read them bedtime stories and you have all these fun and you take them to the library. Well, for me, that was like a living nightmare. I would be they would get given books and I'd hide them down the back of my wardrobe so they couldn't find them. Where's that book? Oh, you haven't got a book. I don't know. Maybe you've hidden it somewhere. Not telling them that actually I've hidden it so we can't read it um so they didn't know you couldn't read

no they had no idea they were only little they were like two three but obviously still then it's you know teaching them stories and you can learn help them learn things through reading but it was the fact that um the government say that when your children turn five you must return to some form of work and I went to a workforce interview and obviously I said to the lady I'd like to learn to cook because you know sausage and chips just don't cut it you know every day um and I said you know I need a bit more social skills because the girl is lovely but I need to you know have some real friends to talk to and some activities go to and I looked at the floor I was waiting for her to snoot her nose at me and I was like and also I need to learn to read and I started to cry and as I lifted my head

she looked like looked at me to say it's okay and she was just like I've got something that will help you and she handed me a piece of paper and I was like, oh, great, more paper. And yeah, it was a read easy sheet. I got home, my dad's like, what's that? I was like, oh, it's something to help me read, to learn to read. And he's like, okay, dial the number. I dialed it six times before I actually pressed go. And then literally, I've never looked back ever since then. I had that first meeting with a lady called name

Jenny and she's wonderful and she's got such a beautiful soul and she the first thing she said to me I'm gonna try and see if I'm not crying she said to me I'm really proud of you and to hear someone tell you they're proud of you even though they've got no idea who you are just almost like lift this massive weight off your shoulders and just makes you feel so light and then obviously I did as much as best as I could on this little test that she had for me what it's not a test it's just they ask you to read words that you can and she just said that's perfect well done I'm really proud of you and I just was like why does this woman keep on saying she's proud of me she's got no idea who I am she's got no idea that I've got hidden books in the back of the wardrobe because I'm terrified

of reading but she does know how difficult it is for you to to ask for help and that's that's the really amazing thing and it's great now that you can read to your kids and this is the thing and the thing like honestly if it wasn't for read easy i don't know where i'd be right now but like when i was moving house about four years ago i went to the wardrobe and i was like there's cinderella there's snow and i'm pulling out all these books the books that yeah and i now sit down with the girls and if i start reading and i get stuck they know not to to interrupt me and try and read it for me because they're desperate to tell me and they're like we need to break this down I said okay let's break it down and now obviously I've got a little girl who's one she loves books so I read to her all the time and she likes to make her own sounds to go with it but it's brilliant because um obviously when

I was pregnant with the girls I had no idea what I was doing and I was so lost but then obviously being pregnant with my little girl I had all these books I could read and we're in lockdown so I had plenty of time to read so it's good so you found the enjoyment of reading and I guess Ginny this is the thing it's the enjoyment of reading but also as Sarah so eloquently put it's about being able to function in life and it has huge implications for people, doesn't it? Their life chances. I mean, you look at the high rates of illiteracy in the female prison population just alone,

and also the impact on people's mental health. It's a massive issue for people's ability to improve their lives. Yes, it's a massive block. There are so many things that people can't do when they can't read. I mean, Sarah's listed lots of them, but there are so many things that people can't do when they can't read i mean sarah's listed lots of them but there you know there are so many others even just going shopping um i remember somebody um who uh learned with reed easy a while back who um had a little boy

who got a peanut allergy and um he was hospitalized three times because she couldn't read the labels on the um the jars she was buying in the supermarket. So it can have, there are so many ways it impacts people's lives and their confidence and their self-esteem and their ability to feel that they can go out and about and do the things that everybody else does. So learning to read can be an incredibly powerful way of being able to do all of these things things join normal life it's just really difficult to imagine it if you if you haven't experienced it but we see huge changes people say it's really

changed my life it's amazing really thank you both for joining us this morning really grateful to you that's uh ginny williams ellis ceo of read easy uk that's a charity which offers free one-to-one reading coaching we also heard from sarah todd who so eloquently told us about her journey from being able to not read or write at the age of 14 to now sitting down and reading with her kids which is just incredible stuff um lots of messages coming in my first teaching job was an adult literacy teacher my students were the most resilient interesting folk barriers to learning are huge but once they realise that tutors genuinely believe they can do it they can fly. That is on Twitter from Pigwitch. Thank you for getting in touch.

Also a text here. I left school unable to read and write as well as having number blindness. It was not until I went on to access a course at the age of 45 that it was identified and diagnosed. I still find it hard to read. Jay thank you for getting in touch with us. Keep those coming 84844 on the text. Now, the Higher Education Minister, Michelle Donnellan, is calling on universities to end the use of non-disclosure agreements to silence complainants in areas such as sexual harassment or misconduct cases. It's a serious issue. A 2020 BBC News investigation found nearly one third of universities had used NDAs to resolve student complaints. It involved over 300 individual NDAs, though the true figure is expected to be higher. The total cost paid out being more than £1.3 million. That equates to around 50 undergraduate

degrees. Well, I spoke to Michelle Donnellan earlier, and I started by asking her what the primary concern was when it came to non-disclosure agreements. Was it because they're being used to cover up allegations of sexual assault? I think that the primary concern is when we think about the moral implications of the use of NDAs in sexual assault, harassment, bullying, that means that the victim is silenced, not just in the short term, but also the long term. Think about the ramifications on their mental health, their well-being, their ability to then talk about that incident. Also, it gives the perpetrator anonymity. And as well as that, it means that other people are less likely to come forward and report incidences. We've got to stamp this out.

And we should be starting first and foremost in our universities that should be leading the way. In fact, this is world leading what we're doing here. We will be one of the first in the world to be this forward on this issue. And I think it's right that we do it now. And I will myself personally be holding universities to account on this. Are you concerned about NDAs being used in other areas as well? Yes, indeed, as a government we are. So the department base, the Department for Business have consulted widely on this very topic and will be coming forward soon with action on this. However, my role as university's minister, I want to be acting now to ensure that universities, as I say, are leading the way to protect students and also staff who can be impacted by the use of NDAs.

You are urging universities to sign up to this pledge. You're not forcing them. There's no element of compulsion. Why not? Well, this is, in effect, a moral contract. And I don't think any vice chancellor is going to turn around looking in the eyes and not do this. This is the right thing to do. Some universities have already been doing this, but for decades, they've never in fact used NDAs for sexual harassment and bullying. But some have. One case is one too many. And as I said, I'll be holding them to account. I am aiming to have the vast majority of universities signed up to this within the year. I'll be personally calling vice chancellors, speaking to vice chancellors, and ensuring that we get action on this. And we've got a track record of using this kind of mechanism. When we look at the IHRA definition, we started with, I think it was about 20 universities

signed up to that definition. We now have over 100 hundred so I will be ensuring that I do do get action on this very topic to give students and and staff that sense of um of reassurance when they are looking at universities whether to study there or to work there and that it's fully transparent and we're working with partners like can't buy my silence we're going to be hosting the full list of universities that do sign up to this. So universities that don't won't make it to that list. Students could in effect vote with their feet and not choose to go to that university. Well, I wanted to ask you what happens if universities don't sign up. You're basically passing that on to students saying don't go there rather than actually enforcing it with universities themselves. No, that's not the

case. I'm going to be working hand in hand with universities. And let's also look at the reaction that this has had so far, pre-launch. It's had a very, very positive reaction. It's been welcomed by the sector, eager to be part of this, who understand, who've listened to the likes of Can't Buy My Science, who've listened to the horrendous reports that came out last year from Everyone's Invited and decided that we need to take action on this. So we're going to work together and ensure that within a year, the vast majority of universities have signed up to this to protect students and staff against this really dangerous practice. The government has talked tough on NDAs for quite a while now, but it hasn't produced the

legislation to back it up. Just to remind our listeners, it was back in March 2019 that the government proposed a new law restricting the use of NDAs. And it was in June that year that the House of Commons instructed the Women and Equalities Committee to research and publish a report. The outcome of that report, the recommendation was that the government should act and outlaw the use of NDAs in cases of discrimination. Why hasn't the government done that? We did also consult widely on this topic. The use of NDAs can actually be the right thing to do for intellectual property and alike.

So it's not a case that NDAs should just be blanket banned. So it is a little bit more nuanced, a little bit more complicated. That's why we had to consult widely. And I know that my counterpart, Minister Scully, in the Department of BASE is working hard on this topic. But what I'm saying is, we're not going to allow it to continue for a day longer in universities, where we need to protect our students, we need to protect our staff. If we're looking at the use of NDAs across a wider spectrum, let's say, for example, in public life, people will be well aware of the context of agreements, for example, signed by Virginia Dufresne in the case of Jeffrey Epstein. Do you believe that there's no place for these

agreements in public life? So I'm not going to get into the details of that specific case, because obviously that is an ongoing legal case. It wouldn't be right as me as a politician to be commenting on that when it's going through the legal process. What I'm saying is as universities, minister, we are acting to protect students and to protect university staff, as a government, we've said that the use of NDAs in these kind of contests does put the victim in an extraordinarily difficult position. My heart goes out to any woman or man that's been placed under an NDA because of sexual harassment or harassment or bullying. It literally silences them. They're unable to speak about the incident, even in years to come. And that is horrendous, as well as protecting the perpetrator and as well as discouraging other people in that same setting

to come forward and to raise concerns and to bring forward their own case. It's a horrendous practice when used in this way. And it's time that we step out in our universities. We're going to be leading the world in this. And as I said, I've had a very warm reception from the university sector who themselves recognise that this should have no place in our universities. Let's talk a little more broadly about university life, if we may. It's been a really tough time for many students, university students included, during the COVID pandemic. Many courses are still being taught online rather than face-to-face. Other institutions going for the blended approach of a bit of both. Students, of course, in England and Wales are paying £9,000 a year in tuition fees.

And it was the Education Secretary, Nadhim Zahawi, who said there's no place for not going back to face-to-face teaching. So why are some institutions not listening to the Education Secretary? Well, we have prioritised education throughout the pandemic and since restrictions have been removed, in fact, the full academic experience can, in fact, be taking place face-to-face. Just this week, the Education Secretary has written to all universities to remind them of this fact and to once again reiterate our message, the message that I have been saying very loud and clear to vice chancellors, that online learning should only be enhancing the learning experience. It shouldn't be taking away. It shouldn't be a cost cutting exercise at all. It should be about enhancing and developing the learning. And universities should be listening to their student bodies. I've spoken to so many students who, you know, quite rightly are angry that they're

not getting that face-to-face tuition and I've been speaking to vice chancellors and I'm starting now to personally call a vice chancellor if I get complaints stipulating that what a student is being offered is not what they were promised and it isn't that full face-to-face offer that they would have expected pre-pandemic. Would you go further and compel universities to do face-to-face teaching? So universities in this country are independent in law. So it's a bit different to our school system. But we do have a regulator, the Office for Students, who has been monitoring this very closely. So if there is a student out there that is concerned, my first advice would be talk to your university, make a formal complaint. You can also go on the Office for Students website. There's a notification process there. You can even do that anonymous if you don't want to

put your name to it and they can look at it. Also, you can approach the OIA, the Office for the Independent Adjudicator, if you've followed the complaints process within your university. And that can lead, in fact, to a partial fee refund. We've seen that throughout the pandemic with students making that journey. But they shouldn't have to. And that's why we're saying to universities now, as we transition through, as the pandemic becomes endemic, we need to get back to a more normal way of learning. Students have been through enough, which was your original point in the beginning throughout the past two years. Let me ask you one final question, because you are a member of the government, you do attend cabinet. We know there's an investigation into more than 15 alleged illegal gatherings at Downing Street.

Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister's former advisor, says that Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister, lied to the House of Commons when he said he didn't know there was a gathering in the Downing Street garden on the 20th of May 2020, saying he didn't know it was a drinks party. Dominic Cummings said he personally warned the Prime Minister, said this is a drinks party, it goes against the legislation, you shouldn't be doing this. The Prime Minister, said this is a drinks party. It goes against the legislation. You shouldn't be doing this.

The Prime Minister waved him away. It's a serious charge that the Prime Minister lied to Parliament. Did he? Well, first of all, I have received a number of emails and spoken to a number of my constituents who made huge sacrifices throughout the last two years. Some of them not being able to attend friends' funerals, like I experienced myself. Some of them not being able to see loved ones in hospital. So I

understand the sense of anger and sense of disappointment. In fact, the Prime Minister himself has addressed that in Parliament and apologised on the specific point that you raise around the allegations made by Dominic Cummings. The Prime Minister has said that they are categorically not true. And obviously, he is the one that was there at the time. Neither you nor I was. That was the Higher Education Minister, Michelle Donnellan, speaking to me a little bit earlier on. Now, does telling a mother-to-be about the realities of birth and parenting

equip them with the information they need or unnecessarily scare them? Well, journalist Rose Stokes is pregnant with her first child and has been hearing loads of horror stories of birth and parenting from friends, from family, even strangers. Well, far from helping her, it's making her more anxious about what is to come. So has sharing the realities of parenting gone too far? What advice is helpful rather than just plain terrifying well rose is with us and so is psychotherapist author and podcaster anna martha good morning to you both morning hi hi now first of all rose congratulations fantastic um news that you're pregnant just give us a sense of some of the things people are telling you i'm particularly struck by the fact

that strangers feel the need to tell you this um well actually I mean I have one of those baby on board um uh badges that I wear when I go out in public so obviously um until I'm only 21 weeks now actually starting to look more pregnant but um I went to the nail salon before Christmas and one of the managers came up to me saw my badge I started asking me about my pregnancy sort of usual script of like how far along are you how are you feeling and then just sort of launched into this um sort of monologue about how my life was going to be over how you know painful childbirth is how difficult it was all going to be uh how to get used to not sleeping and all of these things and I left and I came home to my partner was really anxious and was sort of saying to him like have we made a massive mistake like when you know strangers I mean obviously as a journalist I do have a bit of

a um a public facing profile as well and I get a lot of dms from people um I got I found when I announced my pregnancy I got quite a lot of them as well just people saying oh you know this I had this I had that um and so I was feeling a little bit overwhelmed by it all um after Christmas um particularly sort of first week of January um and so I as a sort of task to make myself feel a little bit more balanced I asked Twitter uh the parents of Twitter to tell me the things they love about parenting always dangerous yeah well yeah you wouldn't believe how many people said doubled down actually on it's really hard and when I'd asked them given them an invitation to tell me what was good about it but you did get some good comments I got

some amazing I mean it went uh you know loads and loads of people responded and it was a really like for actually unusual for Twitter a really nice day on Twitter. And everyone was really, really sweet. And it just sort of made me think that, you know, sometimes in the quest for authenticity or relatable storytelling when it comes to parenting and life with babies, how much we are proactively putting people off. And obviously you have to think about your audience. I've heard from a lot of people who don't have kids yet, but are really scared to have them because of the things that they read and hear. I understand why we do this. Like, you know, we've moved on from a time in life where everyone said, you know, every child is a gift.

Don't talk about the hard stuff. I understand that balance is really, really important. But I do sometimes question that whether a pregnant person is the right audience for scare-mongering when I'm already very much on the moving walkway towards having a baby. Yeah, there's not a lot you can do about it. And that's interesting. And Anna, I wanted to bring this in because I've got a 12-year-old and a 9-year-old and there was very much a code amongst my friends, which was you don't tell people your horrible birth stories or lack of sleep stories to someone who's pregnant because they are going to have that baby and it's not really going to help them. I don't know why. Have things changed, do you think, Anna, that people now just feel the

need to blurt it out or has Rose just been unlucky? Yeah, I've really been pondering this, actually, and I've noticed it happen throughout all stages of my motherhood from both moments of being pregnant. But also, I remember being pregnant with my third and someone saying, oh, my gosh, no one's ever going to invite you to their house again. You know, this is where it ramps up. And at each stage, you know, there's always been these comments. And I've been pondering on why., like why is there a need almost to kind of spit it out there? And I think, I think one of them is exactly as you were saying, it used to be, you know, hush, hush. And then as soon as someone had the baby, it'd be like, welcome to the club. Now, you know, now you know that that love, that that bond, that that joy, you know, you know that feeling, but you also,

you recognize the sacrifice. And I was talking to my mom about this the other day, and she said, Anna, it's like we've forgotten the recognition that nothing good comes without sacrifice. You know, all the most valuable experiences in our lives, they often, you know, when we look back, they come with sacrifice. And another reason I think these things kind of pop out of people is that we've, over the last few years, we've lost so much compassion for ourselves. You know, we've put so much pressure on ourselves to feel all those wonderful, nurturing, loving feelings, those kind of archetypal mother feelings all the time. And actually what happens when we're not validating our own emotion? And we've been doing a lot of like gratitude over the last couple of years, haven't we, to get by, you know, it could be harder. I've got to be grateful for where I am. And that's really valuable. But often what happens

when we use that to shame some of those difficult emotions of overwhelm and just boredom even, or, you know, feelings around the relentlessness of motherhood when we when we shame those they're going to pop out we're going to seek to feel validated in other areas you know so instead of comparing ourselves with people that you know have it harder than us in those moments where you might see someone pregnant and they say oh I'm just so tired and you know someone might say oh my gosh you don't even know the meaning of tired yet. And it's almost that seeking of validation because actually perhaps you found it hard in those moments of exhaustion to have kindness and compassion for yourself. So you're seeking it externally. And Rose, do you think there's also an element?

People might think that they're being helpful, that they're trying to arm you. I don't know. maybe they're not, but they're trying to arm you and say, look, I remember people saying to me when I was pregnant, get loads of sleep beforehand because you're going to be tired. And you just kind of think, well, that's not going to help me. I can't stack up sleep. But also what pregnant person sleeps well.

Yes, exactly. I mean, it's not been the best uh you know time of my life in terms of good sleep but um I I think that the thing is that yes you're right like I think a lot of people it comes from it always comes from a well-meaning place like I don't say this to admonish anyone to criticize anyone I really do think that people don't want you to be disappointed or um overwhelmed or whatever but I think for me me it's kind of tipped in the other way and I think that you know it is really well-meaning and I appreciate when people are trying to prepare me I think it's really important and I also do want to say that someone pointed out

on Twitter and I think it's a really good point that the past couple of years pandemic parenting has taken parenting up a notch so anyone starting the parenting journey now is looking at a load of you know content from people who have been struggling a lot and that you know that makes a difference um I guess my main thing is that I just feel like it would be like and obviously no one wants anyone to walk around and only speak about how great their children are how wonderful parenting is like that could get obnoxious very quickly. But at the same time, I just would like there to be a bit of balance between it's awful, your life's over. I mean, someone told me recently that they felt like they lost their whole identity when they had a child.

And that for me was really scary. But then everybody's experience is different and I guess this is the thing isn't it Anna that everyone does have a different experience and people have to find their own way and I guess in some ways social media can be a blessing and a curse because if you're sitting at home as Rose has rightly said it's the pandemic you're trying to understand what life is going to it's the pandemic you're you're trying to understand what life is going to be like for you you can find stuff out there that really is not going to be helpful so in some ways it's a blessing some ways it's a curse absolutely and

you know what we were mentioning earlier about you know welcome to the club it's like the club is an open book now you know it's not just those those costs are seen on social media and discussed on social media and actually what people are doing, they're reading about the costs without experiencing the love and the bond. So, of course, it can feel anxiety provoking. And I think I talk a lot about the emotions of motherhood. I untangle things and hope to equip people in them. And actually, you know, it is a massive challenge of identity. But what I will say is that if you're willing to, it can be the making of you as well. You know, it can utterly be the making of you as well.

And yeah, I think it's a responsibility, isn't it, of people talking about motherhood to talk about some of those good points as well but also you know as someone stepping into motherhood or contemplating motherhood to sometimes have a boundary around actually you know it's not helpful for me to hear all of this have you got anything that brings balance to it and I remember so significantly when I was pregnant with I've got three children and a mum saying to me Anna three is just the most incredible dynamic. It's the most wonderful thing I've ever done. And that stuck with me because it was positive. And yes, it's hard, but man, it's good as well.

And I, yeah, I think in this age of kind of vulnerability and honesty and openness, when we're reading that without being able to see through that experiential lens of the love and the relationship, it's hard. Messages coming in here. Helen's text is saying, I'm sat feeding a 48-hour-old baby and I totally relate to this. People wanting to share their unnecessary opinions. Amanda says women who have easy labours or breastfeeding keep quiet about it because it sounds boastful. What you do need to know, though, is that you will crave uninterrupted sleep. I will add to that, though, Rose, that it is hard when your baby wakes up in the middle of the night and you're tired and you're sleep deprived. But the moment you see their little face, everything melts away and you think, oh, how can I be cross? Come here.

So, you know, there's some wonderful, wonderful things that you're going to look forward to and have an amazing time. So I hope people stop with their negative stories. No, yeah, me too. And as I say, like, I really appreciate it. I appreciate people trying to help and I know that it comes from a really good place. But it is really important to remember that joy and pain can coexist. And as humans, we can feel a range of emotions at any given time. So for me, it was just about trying to focus on the positives. And I think and generally speaking, remember who you're giving your advice to, who the audience is of your advice.

Yeah. Remember your audience. That's a very good point. Thank you so much. And thank you also to Anna Martha, who's a psychotherapist, an author and a podcaster. Now, it is the most played sport by women in the UK. And at an elite level, Netball has gone from strength to strength since winning their first ever Commonwealth Games gold back in 2018. Now, in 2022, they're looking to defend their Commonwealth title in Birmingham this summer. Well, before that, the Vitality Roses have the small matter of facing the world number one side, Australia, tonight in the quad series.

It's an annual competition. It's between the Aussies, New Zealand, South Africa and England. And England will be hoping to win the league, which will be a first and hopeful start to their pursuit for gold in Birmingham. So I'm delighted to say we're joined by Amma Ambuese, who is the former England netball captain who led the Vitality Roses to victory in that game in the Commonwealth Games back in 2018. I'm a huge fan of netball. I play netball. I'm incredibly passionate about it. And I know that it's been so important to give elite netball the platform that it deserves. People have seen that women's football has obviously got a much higher profile. How did that match and it's that single match many people will know how much did that elevate elite netball in this country incredibly it was huge and I think as you say it's the number one female sport in terms of participation in the UK but compared to

male sports female sports don't get much recognition and that match basically catapulted netball into everybody's thinking and understanding so so many women when I go to events and speak come to me and say you've helped me immensely just because when I say I'm going to play netball people actually understand and appreciate that now. Let's talk about the Roses because obviously so many sports affected by the pandemic. Incredible game. I miss the South Africa game, but I watched the New Zealand game on Sunday and it was awesome

because at one point they were eight goals down and they managed to come back and win. But tonight is a different matter. They're playing Australia. And just explain to people who aren't familiar with Australia in netball terms, that is a massive task tonight. It is.

So Australia are currently the world's number one ranks team. England have played Australia probably 120 times and only beaten them maybe seven, if that, probably five.

They have transitioned and have quite an inexperienced team and they haven't played internationally much in the last two years. So they've only played four tests in the last two years so they've only played four tests in the last two years but this quad series they've hit the ground running and they've won two out of two matches and so it is going to be a really tough challenge for the England Roses.

It's confusing because England are playing Australia tonight and then there's another final tomorrow which is probably going to be England Australia realistically. It is so basically the quad series there's four teams and you play each team once. Usually there's no sort of final, but they've introduced a final. So number one will play number two and number three will play number four to decide positions. And because England have won two matches and Australia have won two matches, tonight's game is almost a dead rubber and then they'll play each other again for one and two. So it'll be interesting to see

whether the coaches put out their strongest teams tonight or whether they sort of work combinations and give some inexperienced players an opportunity. But I think for Jets, there'll be the England coach. She will want to win tonight and also win the game tomorrow just to stamp her authority and make sure that Australia, New Zealand and the rest of the netballing world pay attention to England and are wary of them at Commonwealth Games.

Now, for people who haven't watched high level netball on TV, they may remember it from maybe school days where it was very much a non-contact sport, reasonably polite. It has changed a lot. It's very physical very physical I mean you see people bouncing off each other on the course it's quite amazing that they are playing back-to-back games day after day you wouldn't get that with footballers as a netballer yourself physically is that quite demand I mean it is demanding but is it possible can you be at your best when you're playing back-to-back games when it's so physical it is really difficult and you spend hours in the gym, basically training, improving your core stability, doing strength training. That's a significant part of the training that we do as netballers. So we basically train for this. It is really hard.

In Commonwealth Games, there is pretty much eight games back to back days with maybe one day off. And so it is really incredible incredibly challenging on the body physically but yeah the girls are prepared for this and trained for this but I wouldn't advise it for anybody who plays netball in their local league to go and play every day. No that would be a terrible idea. Now let's look ahead to Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth Games. Obviously there's high hopes that England will retain their title, but realistically, what are their chances? Well, I think based on their performances at the quad series,

they are looking very strong. So I would say they're very good chances. And the game today against Australia will probably help us ascertain more whether there is a chance of England retaining the title. But I do think this quad series is the last opportunity for teams to play against each other, see what they can do and work combinations. So it'll be interesting to see what New Zealand and Australia come back with in the quad series. I'm sorry, for Commonwealth Games. And actually

Jamaica aren't in this quad series. They're currently ranked world number four and it's Jamaican independence this year. So I'm thinking it could be anybody's and it's probably the first Commonwealth Games that it is really open but obviously England will hope to retain that title. Now much to my irritation I'm sure yours netball isn't currently in the Olympics so the Commonwealth Games is the big it's the equivalent of the Olympics you win that you that, that's the biggest thing in the sport. Now that is going to change, isn't it, in years to come because Australia is committed to making it an Olympic sport in 2032. That presumably will help elevate it again.

Yes, I do hope so. And at the moment, the top 12 teams go to the Commonwealth Games. So it is the pinnacle event in multi-sport competition, as you say. Yes, netball are aiming for 2032 to be included in the Olympics. I think there's still a way to go. So they're trying to increase male participation. So males do play, but not as much as females. But there is a hope that it will be included into the Olympic programme. Well, let's talk about male participation, because I've played in mixed leagues before. It's tricky in mixed leagues, isn't it? Because men are clearly a lot more physical than women.

And the game is very different in all male sides and all female sides. The male game is a long way behind. Do you think the fact that it is seen as a woman's sport, if you like, that's what in some ways holds netball back and doesn't get as much support because male sports always seem to get more prominence. I think male sports definitely are more prominent. And if you look at sports where there is a male side and a female side, the female side is almost the little sister or the poor best friend of the male side. And so

netball is different because it is predominantly females. And I think that's really great for netball itself. But I do think it does mean that males' participation is lacking. And I think previously it was probably shunned a little bit. And I think now society is more accepting. And so there are so many more boys and men playing. And I think that's only good for the game it can only grow the game and I think netball could be a test example of how to gain equality and allow both sexes or both genders to play um and become get to the same level and I

know you mentioned that mixed netball is difficult obviously men physically are um stronger than women but I think it's probably the only sport that I know of where men and women can play together. And that, Amma, that is a really good point and one that we shouldn't overlook. Listen, thank you so much for speaking to us. That is Amma Amboise, who is the former England netball captain. This is Woman's Hour. Thank you for your company. I'll be back again at the same time tomorrow. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. I hope you can join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody

out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.