Woman's Hour - Netball World Cup, Comedian Georgie Grier, Can design heal loneliness?

Episode Date: August 4, 2023

Actor and writer Georgie Grier has shared a post on social media after her opening show at the Edinburgh Fringe had just one person in the audience. She’s had replies of support and encouragement from thousands of people, including comedian Jason Manford. She joins Anita to talk about what it was like to perform to one person, and how she feels about the reaction she’s getting.The Women’s Netball World Cup is hotting up and Anita is joined by the BBC’s Katharine Merry to look ahead to Sunday’s final. She also tells us how netball is impacting girls in the host city of Cape Town. All this week we’ve been talking about loneliness. Today we ask: Is it possible to design cities and public spaces with social connection at their heart? Anita is joined by Erin Peavey, an architect and well-being design leader at HKS and by Joanna Yarrow, a Non-Executive Director at property developer Human Nature.What do you consider before buying an item of clothing? The cost? The brand? Journalist and TikTok creator Andrea Cheong says we’ve never been taught how to shop and that breaking up with fashion is like leaving behind a bad boyfriend. Andrea joins Anita to discuss her new book Why Don’t I Have Anything to Wear? Woman’s Hour has been closely following the Women’s Football World Cup in Australia and New Zealand this year. Dr Kerry Peek has also been keeping a close eye on the action – but for different reasons. She is one of the ‘concussion spotters’, who for the first time in the women’s game have been deployed to monitor players for head injuries during matches. She joins Anita Rani to explain her research into why women footballers sustain more concussions than men.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. It's Sporty Friday today on Woman's Hour. We'll be bringing you the latest from the Netball and Football Women's World Cup. But this morning, I want to hear about you and your relationship with sports or the physical activity you do in your spare time. Yesterday, we discussed how joining a club can help with loneliness. Is this you?

How important is your club, your team, your squad in your life? In fact, Claire Balding is encouraging women to take up playing sports. She said in an interview, find friends who you want to do it with. Give yourself permission to take the time to do it. Men allow themselves five hours to play golf, whereas women think they don't have time. Is this the situation in your household? Do you not give yourself permission? Or do you feel guilty about taking time out for yourself? Or are you made to feel guilty if you choose to do something

away from your family just for you we have opened up a minefield here so get in touch and tell me about the role sport plays or has played in your life you can get in touch in the usual ways text me 84844 or you can email me via our website or you can whatsapp me or even leave me a voice note it's 03700 100 444 and remember to check all terms and conditions. They can be found on our website. You never know, there may be a spike in women signing up to clubs this weekend. Let's hope so. Also on the programme, we continue our conversation around loneliness. Today, we're discussing how we can design the way we live to combat loneliness. And do you buy too many clothes? So many of you leaning in for this one

and want to curb your ways. Well, keep listening because Andrea Chong has written a book to help us all. That text number once again, 84844. Now, today is the start of the Edinburgh Fringe, the month-long festival that sees actors, artists, comedians, acrobats, writers, magicians, you name it, from all over the world descend on Edinburgh and entertain thousands. It can be a tough life as a performer, though. Competition is fierce and people one person came to watch. Well, she posted about it on Twitter and the reaction has been immense. Loads of support came her way, including from us here at Woman's Hour, because Georgie is looking at me right now via Zoom. Hello, Georgie.

Hello, Anita. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. It's absolutely a pleasure. I'm sorry I laboured the one woman came to watch. One woman. What happened? I know. It was actually someone I had met once, so I knew and I messaged her. She was. I know. I know. I kind of was like, would it have been better if I didn't know her you know um I've met her once and she very kindly came after I messaged her asking if she could come um and uh I walked on the stage and uh yeah my first thought was I felt sorry for her because

I didn't want her to have to sit through an hour of eye contact with me. But she was very gracious with her laughs. She laughed possibly at moments she didn't even find funny just to help me out. And then we eventually had some fun together as well. I think we need to shout out who this woman is. What's her name? She's the wonderful Sophie Craig and she is also an actor as well.

She has a wonderful play at Edinburgh Fringe as well. And you have to go and watch her play as well now. I've seen it. Oh, okay. Excellent. That's good. good support between the sisterhood um it was your first show tell me how you were feeling beforehand i was nervous it's preview week so i knew it would be a struggle for numbers i had eight on the first day five of which were again people i'd asked to come along so i was like well that was a really good turnout feeling you know optimistic although I know it's a marathon not a sprint but each time again you get nervous and then there was a bit of a a bit of a um a conversation outside of the

theatre where my technician came out and I was like he's never normally out here what's he doing and uh it came to be that you know there was just one person there and uh and it was the fact that we were all kind of crowding outside of the theatre that was probably making it worse for poor Sophie in the theatre who was just like oh god it's just me in here so yeah that was my first initial reaction was the panic that she would have to just be there with me on her own. I'm chuckling about it because I feel like we've got to a place possibly where we can. I don't know. I'm being very presumptuous. However, what did it feel like? I mean, you've put all this hard work in and I guess it's the worst

feeling. It's like when you throw a birthday party and you worry that no one's going to come and this sort of happened. You had one person. So what was the feeling when you stepped out on stage that's a great question it was obviously I was obviously quite upset as well but I knew it was preview week I knew it was going to be hard but there was a little bit you know there was some upsetness there and I just thought you know what I have to get on with. I have to treat this like a dress rehearsal. But then I think it all just came out afterwards and that's when I had a cry just because, as you say, I've put so much hard work into this play as do so many people across the fringe with their shows

and it was just a bit of a release afterwards. Once I was done with the laughs and Sophie and the play, which also doesn't have laughs, there's moments of non laughter. It was that release at the end. I think it all sort of come to a peak, as it were. But I couldn't let it out completely on stage. I had to just go for it. Well, very professional of you to just say, right, let's get on with it, see it as a dress rehearsal. That's very good presence of mind to be able to just focus in that moment uh what made you want to tweet about it good question i didn't

want to call my mum crying i didn't want her to have to go through that again so i thought um the hashtag ed fringe community on social media has been a really supportive place. And I thought, oh, you know, you know, might find a couple of other people who had one person, might get some words of comfort from someone else, might be able to comfort someone else who had one person. I did not expect the level of reaction that I've had, Anita. It's been so lovely, so unexpected, so many words for what I've experienced. But yeah, I'm just so appreciative of the support. Like what? Who's got in touch to say, we've all been there? Or what have they said? So there was a comedian, Jason Manford, who very kindly put a video out saying that he'd been in a similar position.

He did a whole little video, it was so nice of him, and other comedians and other performers across the Edinburgh Fringe and other people. Well, look, we've had a tweet this morning from one of our listeners who said, it's author Tina McGuff. She says, I feel so bad for Georgie. It happened to me at a book talk. The staff of the venue felt so bad they came to sit and listen see that's amazing yeah and there might be a few people listening to this who'd be thinking

now is this just a crafty publicity stunt because last year Robin Granger who's a comedian launched his career off a post about how there was only one person at his show. What would you say to those cynics? I would say I, as I said, just wanted someone to vent to who wasn't my mum. In that moment, I had tears in my eyes. I wasn't thinking about anything further than just needing a bit of a release and to not have to bother my mum, my dad and my sister. So that's where I was coming from.

And how has it made you feel about your show? Tell us about your show. Yeah, so my show is a one-woman play about romantic comedies, but it fuses the worlds of movies and podcasts. So one woman is trying to reimagine her life like a romantic comedy while recording it all on a podcast. But the question is, will there be a happily ever after? It also explores really a lot about family

and also our relationship to fantasy, to the things we watch, to the things, the content we consume and how that impacts our reality. I basically love movies and television and anything on our screens. And I am so interested in stories about the ways in which we relate to the things we watch. And also, yeah, family and who doesn't love a rom-com sometimes?

Who doesn't love a romance and want to be in a movie of their own life? How do you feel about it now, though? You know, it's preview week. You've had, what was it, eight people on day one. You're brilliant mate on day two. And obviously now it's Friday and you're on Woman's Hour talking about it. Is this the most surreal week of your life?

I can't believe I'm here with you, Anita. This has just blown my mind. But it's all about the show. So how do you feel now? Because you've got next week, you're doing it. How are you feeling about it? Have you lost your confidence?

Has this boosted your confidence? So I've got to do it for the rest of the month including today um I have to remind myself to go to the theatre shortly um but no it's it's put a spring in my step for sure but of course there's no guarantee still of ticket sales you know I love the support um but I will never know who's there until I walk into that theatre and will be grateful if anyone turns up why did you want to write a one-woman play there's quite a lot of pressure you've put on yourself here less production costs just me and I wanted to generate work for myself I'm an actor it's been a quiet year I've had a quiet other year as well and uh I wanted to try and create a bit of agency for myself where I could I like I wanted to tell this particular story uh make people laugh maybe occasionally cry made myself cry in the end turns

out but um yeah generate generate some work for myself really write it all in write it all down um I want to wish you all the best i cannot wait to see what happens next week um best of luck to you and just your tenacity is what i'm in deep admiration of so yeah keep going and uh let's see let's see what happens let's see what transpires it's friday it's edinburgh anything could. Thank you, Anita. Thank you. Good luck. Georgie Greer there, who went on stage and had one person come and see her. I mean, it is the worry, isn't it, when you throw a party or you're doing something that nobody's going to turn up? Has it happened to you?

Is there something you can relate to where you worried that no one would come to your birthday party and everyone's like, don't worry, people have come. And then, yeah, no one one came 84844 is the number to text now the women's netball world cup has been taking place all this week and it's been full of nail-biting matches the tournament is taking place in cape town and ahead of sunday's final we're joined again by the bbc's katherine merry uh morning katherine welcome tell us what's the tournament been like so far? Oh there she is in this glorious sunshine with palm trees behind her, we are not jealous. Oh firstly good morning Anita, yeah we're in Camps Bay this morning, we're about 20 minutes

outside the centre of Cape Town where this Netball World Cup is taking place, the first time the Netball World Cup has ever been on African soil and it is going superbly well for the England Roads in particular. But no, it's 16 teams, the best in the world, 10 days of competition and we're at the business end now Anita because we've got the two semi-finals

tomorrow before the big finals day on Sunday. So yeah, final on Sunday, lots of other games before then. So where are we up to so far? England haven't lost a single quarter. Four quarters of 15 minutes in netball. They've not lost one. They are on fire.

They are so, so consistent. And yesterday, the England Roses, for the first time ever in the netball World Cup, beat Australia, who are the 11-time champions and the world-leading team. Wales have picked up a win as well. Scotland are picking up wins. And we've got a juicy Scotland-Wales battle

for the ninth, tenth place coming up as well. So, no, the home nations have represented, but the big four, Anita, are Australia, New Zealand, England and Jamaica. And they're the four that are going to battle once again for the title. Could they be in the final, go better than the bronze in the 2019 World Cup?

I genuinely think they can. If you look back at the history of the Netball World Cup, I've mentioned that Australia have dominated, winning it 11 times. England have got a silver medal back in the 70s and have got six bronze medals in total, including that one you mentioned, Anita, back in Liverpool in the brilliant World Cup in 2019. Yes, they can. They have the capability to win the netball World Cup for the first time. And they're enjoying the experience here in South Africa. A lot of the players have had a bit of time off in between matches. They've been enjoying the hospitality, the warmth from these South African people.

We've been out and about into townships as well. It's a wonderful World Cup so far, but can England win? Most definitely. That's what we like to hear. You've just mentioned you've been out and about into the townships speaking to locals in Cape Town about how netball is impacting communities there. Tell us what you found. What have they been saying to you?

Quite simply, it was probably two of the most humbling days of my life um we were going into the townships we went to two particular townships to see as you mentioned what impact the world cup's having here because it's fine if a major sporting event comes to a region but what does it mean to those on the ground what difference is it going to make and we went into two separate townships and spoke to children, boys and girls that don't have much, that still live in really, really poor conditions.

But they were so, so welcoming, loving and excited that the World Cup was coming. And in particular, we spoke to two or three different coaches who really, really lead the way in terms of getting children involved, getting them off the streets, putting them on the right path in life. And the Netball World Cup is actually doing that here in South Africa, which is brilliant to see and to hear. I think we can hear from one of the people you spoke to right now.

I'm from Kailisha, a dangerous area, but cool at the same time. The children that I'm coaching are from there, in those streets. And then I wanted them to get out of those streets and explore the other the other areas through netball now that we have a world cup they are so excited they see themselves as future potipoti pumzamweni and those and all of the pro-tier players. I mean, this is what you want to hear, don't you? The positive impacts that sport can have. And yes, tell me about who we're listening to there.

Who was that? It was amazing. She was the first lady I spoke to when I arrived. Her name was Zimbi and she was exactly like all the other ladies we spoke to, full of passion and full of drive to want to make a difference in Eater and making sure that the World Cup does make a difference to the communities here. And some of them are coming to the World Cup. A lot of them can't afford the tickets.

It's a ridiculous price and structure that they have here. So a lot of the townships can't afford to come. But Zimby was just one of several we spoke to who just had so much love and passion in our heart. It was very, very humbling, as I say. They want to make a difference. They are making a difference, and they really are hoping that the World Cup here in South Africa

can boost the self-esteem and can boost the aspiration. She mentioned Ponzi Mwena there. Ponzi Mwena did a massive intercept in the South Africa game that had a draw a couple of nights ago and brought the roof down at a convention centre. So the difference is being made, we hope. Great. Spine-tingling stuff, just hearing about it.

Catherine, we are asking our listeners about the role sport plays in their life. Now, you report on sport. Do you play it? My netballing days were very short and I'm not a very good goal attacker although we did have some wonderful interviews with some of the England Roses yesterday

and Liv Cheen, one of the new members of the England Rose on her World Cup debut, loves athletics and my background of course is athletics and I won an Olympic medal in athletics so I was a lot better at athletics Anita than I was at netball but Liv Cheen, our new shooting sensation, has said, can you teach me to run fast, Kath, and I'll teach you to shoot.

So it's all good. It's about sharing your sporting knowledge. Love that anecdote. Thank you so much, Catherine. And I'm sure we'll be catching up with you later as well at the BBC's Catherine Merry in South Africa there. So many of you are getting in touch, telling me about what's the role sport plays in your life.

But actually a couple of tweets here in support of Georgie. Just to reassure Georgie, says Betsy, her show is fantastic. I saw her with eight girlfriends in Brighton Fringe. Keep going. Yes, Georgie, keep going. Maybe I should tell you all where she's performing. I'll find out and get that information

and put it out there. Let's see if we can fill Georgie's theatre. Hi Anita, feel the love for your first guest i was at an art event last weekend representing myself and guess what hardly anyone came lol such is life such is the life of an artist and uh di smith from wantage says i once was the only guest who turned up to a tupperware party i was hard up sorry i don't know why that's made me laugh so much i was hard up and didn't intend to buy anything. But needless to say, as the only person there, I felt obliged.

It was a very long and embarrassing evening. It's our poor party. You need to tell me what year that was just to give me some more context. Yes, and your sporting stories. Sport was my favourite activity at school. I joined a walking netball a walking netball club five years ago i have made so many good friends we support each other during good and bad times it's totally inclusive we organize social events too i can highly recommend joining a sports club

all 11 levels of ability play our goal shooter is 88 and rarely misses my kind of sporting team um 84844 is the number to text, I need to stop giggling about Tupperware Party. Now all this week we've been talking about loneliness so many of you have got in touch with your messages, it's clearly struck a nerve. We've been looking at the topic because statistics from the

ONS show us women are more likely to be lonely than men and young people in particular are likely to report feeling lonely. Well, on Monday's programme, we heard from two women in their 30s who told us how loneliness feels for them. Rachel told us what it's like for her. I think we're massively missing community everywhere.

Like, community to me fixes so many things and we need it. But also it's like all of my friends are busy we work a lot we're burned out we're tired it's cost of living crisis not got any money loads of us are in flat shares it's not even like you've got a space that you can have people come around and there's so many things well we looked at the impact it has on our mental health and on the economy too yesterday we looked at ways to alleviate feelings of loneliness and you can listen back to all of those episodes on BBC Sounds. Today we're going to do some blue sky thinking. We're going out there. Is it possible to build societies with loneliness in mind? Could our homes, our offices, our public spaces, our cities be designed to heal feelings

of loneliness and bring communities together? Well to to discuss this, I'm joined by Erin Peavy, who's an architect and wellbeing design leader at HKS, an architecture firm. She's based in the States. And I'm also joined by Joanna Yammer, a non-executive director at property developer Human Nature, which is planning to build a mixed-use urban neighbourhood in Sussex designed to be sustainable and to foster social cohesion. Welcome to both of you. Erin, I'm going to come to you first. Can you design a building or a space with loneliness in mind? 100%. I tend to think about it as designing a space with connection and community in mind and belonging, really. I think really it's about creating opportunities to build familiarity with, you know, for instance, where you live, how are you getting a chance to know your neighbors?

She talked about flat shares and, you know, we want to be able to create shared spaces where people can get to know one another and have an opportunity to not only make connections, but deepen those connections. Can you give us some examples of where it's been done? Yeah, greatly. So we've done a beautiful mixed use student housing at University of California in San Diego. And what we talk about when we talk about this is nested scales of belonging, right? So you think of when you go into your first year as a new student, it's such a lonely time. It's a huge transition.

You're moving away from your family and friends. And there's an opportunity in those spaces to create connection. And so what we've done is from all the way from the room level to the sort of micro suite to the larger, it's about creating opportunities to get to know one another. And I think what's important is not to necessarily force connection, although that's, you know, sometimes it's helpful, but it's really to invite it. And so I think just small nudges of, you know, where are you cooking? How do you create a shared hub, wherever that is, to really foster connection? And I loved hearing from your guests talking about sports, because we have sports courts of different types, and they make such great social spaces. And it's a wonderful way for people to bond. I think so. First, I just want to say with University of San Diego, one of the things that we found is we did pre and post studies. And despite the pre being before the pandemic and the post being during the pandemic, we saw reduced depression scores in the students. During the pandemic yeah wow yeah um and we also saw for the students that were living in the housing at the time um and then um same with uh increased life satisfaction scores and so you know that's that's huge and really meaningful um and then i think of a great example. There's a beautiful community clinic called Waco

Family Medicine that I'm working with that serves underserved populations in Waco, Texas. And one of the things that we did is we really listened to the community. We went to the community health fairs and went out there in Spanish and in English talking with them and understanding what they wanted, which I think is really important, and ultimately created a beautiful green space that connects people and a front porch. And so on that similar theme that there's a front porch with an overhang, because it's really hot in Texas, that allows people to have yoga classes and dancing. And so, yeah, it's really hot in Texas that allows people to have yoga classes and dancing and so yeah it's really important to do that. Okay let's bring in Joanna yes Joanna I'm gonna you're actually planning a neighborhood in Sussex with social cohesion in mind what's that going to look

like? Yes that's right. You won't need anything to protect anyone from extreme heat there that's not going to be an issue. Well, not this summer. Let's see what happens in the future. But yeah, it's actually my hometown, which is Lewis. Lovely. Near Brighton. So you've got skin in the game then. This is not just about you doing something as a project. It's a passion.

It really is. It really is. It's where I grew up and it's where I hope I'm going to stay and my daughter will thrive. So I've got to get it right. And the idea, it's a new neighbourhood in the centre of the town. So it's a I hope I'm going to stay and my daughter will thrive so I've got to get it right and the idea it's a new neighbourhood in the centre of the town so it's a brownfield site it's been light industrial for gosh at least 150 years and it's sort of derelict at the moment and the idea is to create a new neighbourhood so it'll be homes about 700 homes mixed type but not the important thing is not just homes and I think this when we start to think about

social cohesion and inclusion one of the challenges is that we do tend to build in a zoned way these days so it will be a mixture of homes but also a lot of public spaces, public facilities, workspaces, hotel, food growing and very much focused on active streets that have many purposes for people and connecting to the rest of the town. And have you spoken to people about what they want? Oh, yeah. And what have women been telling you? Well, we've spoken a lot. And again, I think this is one of the things that we're trying to do differently,

is rather than bringing in sort of outside cookie cutter thinking from elsewhere, it's to co-create with the community that's there and the community that would like to be there so after over the last two and a half years we've run design um festivals we've run exhibitions lots and lots of meetings with groups and new groups and existing groups to hear what they would like what they'd like to keep and what they'd like to do differently and women I think have played a really strong role in those conversations and there's one uh one group of women that really stands out for me um and they are slightly older um so they're sort of 60 plus and these women um live in and around Lewis and they're all sort of thinking about their next chapter and they had an idea which was that they were going to buy, pull together

and buy a country house so that when some of them are already widows, some of them are single, some of them imagine they might live longer than their husbands and then they realised that maybe in 10-15 years time they would be isolated again. So for them the idea of designing shared living in a neighborhood so that they can have space for themselves to share with each other but they've also got um access to other people other ages facilities and all women and these are this is a group of all women it's so funny because i came across an article it's an old article but i was reading it yesterday about a group of women in china a group of friends who have done exactly that. They've purchased a house for them all to retire to.

I feel like that is a Woman's Hour item yet to happen. It would be fantastic. Yeah, I know. I'm sure we've inspired a lot of women who are sitting up going, oh, that's an idea. I mean, let's come back to you, Erin. Isn't this something that societies have been doing for forever, you know, living communally? Yes, I know. I get so excited hearing that. I, you know, when you look at how we evolved, it was to be in tribes and groups together, right? An intergenerational community. And I think about, you know, some of the times that are so lonely, like having a new child and becoming a mother for the first time.

And that used to not be lonely. It used to be a communal activity where you were supported by all of those around you. And I'm seeing more, not only co-housing models come up, which I think is really wonderful, but intergenerational opportunities. And I just believe in them full heartedly. Yeah. So what's happened then, Joanna? How have we got to a place where we are now, where we're having to now rethink living communally? Yeah, it's a very good question. And in a way, it should be very simple because a lot of this isn't new. It's learning what we've done well in the past and looking at what's perhaps being done even better elsewhere. So, for example, in Scandinavia, in the Netherlands.

What are they doing? Well, I lived in Sweden. I was lucky to live in Sweden for a few years. And my daughter was nine. Sorry, my daughter was three when we moved there. So I didn't have family there. I didn't have a friendship network. But what I quickly realised was actually the way that the place was designed and run really helped me as a parent to integrate in a sort of informal way. In Malmo, where I was living, there are dozens and dozens and dozens of playgrounds, some big and fancy, some quite small and very low key, and they're scattered through the town. And I found myself actually sometimes having to kind of plan a route to avoid them, because otherwise it would take too long with my daughter. But the point was that I had in my everyday, while I was just going around my kind of daily tasks I had opportunities to either intentionally go and meet people so a friend or a colleague or a neighbour or join a group

but also incidental and there's so much research and I'm sure Erin will give lots of examples of this of those incidental connections so for as a parent um at home with a young child uh if i was to go to the shop i would you know stop by one or two of these places where they would always be other parents not just women um in a similar situation because it's scandinavia it's sweden you do have i thought i thought they were manis to start with in the playgrounds no they were dads they got decent parental leave but that's a whole other topic yeah um and there might be a cafe nearby there might be some um sort of informal sporting equipment for for teenagers and older people so it was just this little hub wasn't anything special wasn't anything fancy but it was woven into the fabric of the neighborhood

and you know I there are pockets of that in the UK today. But, you know, you would have to push hard to find them. And it's just that thoughtful designing in either into new places or to existing places, those opportunities for us to cross paths more regularly, for different people from different walks of life to come together, as I say, either in a planned way. So, you know, we're planning, we've got a sort of community canteen, for example, on the central square, where people who've been involved in neighbourhood gardens can come and bring their produce to grow, or if you're a parent at home, or if you're an older person. You're just designing in the facilities and also, I suppose, the sort of way of living,

which perhaps we've lost that connection in the way we think. See, when we're talking about it like this, it just seems so obvious. Of course, you need a space for children to play. Of course, you need somewhere where you can all come together and eat as a community and green space. And maybe that's just because we are so much more aware of the need for all of this within our lives. So, Erin, how much of where we are today certainly in big cities is because it's traditionally been men doing the thinking and planning and the objective seems to have been commerce driven just gonna throw that out there i love this question

um i mean i think i think of that so much of not only is it men oftentimes doing the building, but also doing the investing and the planning. And I think, you know, even then, you know, as Joanna is talking, I'm thinking, yeah, we're not talking about the trade-offs, right? So, you know, some of the reasons why we have gone the opposite direction is because of this fierce want for independence, individuality, convenience. But what we're not realizing is how much we're giving up by not sort of being connected. And I think, you know, talking about how our cities are designed, yeah, we need to be designing more for women. Women travel differently than men. And so when you look at even bus routes or transit routes, they're really meant for the ways that men move about the city, not for the way that women do.

And personally, I would love to see more women in all versions of planning, really embracing our feminine understanding and our intuition that is now finally there's enough research that really shows how important that is. And so yes, you were agreeing there. I was, yeah. I mean, I think ultimately, it's about designing in place that the brief that you should be designing to is a great quality of life. And the fact that you happen to have, you know, a business purpose, or you happen to have a private home purpose, is just a sort of category. And I don't want to generalise, but I, you know, I do tend to think that women, you know, we often are needing to pack in lots of different aspects of life into every day.

So it's profoundly unhelpful to have to go in three different directions to do your shopping, your job, your childcare. And let's presume you've got some time for health and fitness at the end of it. If you can design all those needs deliberately into a place that works on a daily basis so you're not having to go into you know lots of different directions you're not having to pay for all of it you can do some of it you know for example in Sweden I joined a gym when I first moved there I think I went twice in three years not because I lazy, but because I actually had two different bikes that I used every single day. I never went for a bike ride. It was just about, you know, getting my daughter to nursery, getting the shopping, getting to the park, was all active. And I didn't need to then

pay money for a gym membership. Are you still paying for the gym membership? Well, I live back in the UK now. Are you still paying for the gym membership it's the question I did learn that I did learn that no I'm very into yoga I cycle I walk very good but um you know it would be lovely to have places that were designed so that other people benefited from that too so back to just how we alleviate loneliness I'm thinking that some people might be listening within the workspace Erin how would you come what how would you design a work environment to combat loneliness? Yeah, I absolutely love this. So I think, you know, there's no doubt that at least in the States, hybrid work is here to stay. But thinking about our workplaces as places of connection. So we're really looking at three different types of relationships. Number one is how to create and

deepen relationships with colleagues. You think not only new hires, you start on a new team. How is it that you guys have a shared space that sort of has a group identity in some way? And that gets to the next type that's really about a sense of belonging. So there's different ways to do this. I think anytime, you know, sports teams, for instance, do a great job with this, having jerseys, but, and different ways of sort of recognizing their belonging of the place. So being able to allow your workers, your employees to have, you know, personal mementos and things that help them to feel like they really belong there and see themselves in the space. And then also it's about business relationships. So for instance,

here in the States, I work at HKS, a large architecture firm, and we have a fabulous, there's one fancy coffee maker. We have seven floors, one fancy coffee maker, and it's next to a beautiful breakout space. And there's always a line. And so you just strike up a conversation about, you know, the cool mug that someone else has. And then all of a sudden you have a new friend and you break out and you sort of ask them about a project. And I think having those magnets and by magnets, I mean like catalysts for connection yeah fancy coffee machines or a nice kettle uh yes exactly um oh yeah we were talking about it on the program yesterday about

loneliness about how you should be getting over the fear of instigating a conversation with a stranger so create an environment where it's possible and you don't feel awkward doing it and where there's a shared thing to talk about, you know? Yeah. I'm very excited about this Lewis project. So is this happening? Well, let's hope. So it's the Phoenix in Lewis.

We put a planning application in in February. It takes a while. It's quite a big project. So we're hoping for a decision in October. And then, yeah, we'd like to get going as quickly as possible. So interesting. We carry on chatting, but I've got to get going as quickly as possible. So interesting. We could carry on chatting, but I've got to move on to the next one. But it's been fascinating talking to you both, Joanna and Erin.

Thank you so much. If you want to share your thoughts on how you overcome loneliness or maybe your work has got it right, maybe you've got a fancy coffee machine or kettle, then get in touch, let me know. 84844 is the number to text. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, do you currently have young children yourself or have you got nieces and nephews who are kids? Well, as part of Listener Week, which is coming up, we're very excited about it, we want to hear the best life advice you've received from kids. We know children have an insight well beyond their years. Well, what have they said that's made you stop in your tracks and rethink what you're doing in the moment or even in your life?

Let us know and we could feature it on Listener Week. Get in touch in the usual ways. You can contact us on social media at BBC Woman's Hour, email through the website and you know the text number 84844. Lots of you getting in touch about how the role sports plays in your life. Oh, Jenny's got in touch about loneliness,

said myself and two single friends rented a country house with an acre seven years ago. Dogs, a young daughter, chickens, utter bliss all fell apart when one woman met a man who paid off her debts And on to sports. again on my own and now rescue dogs and loving life in Wales. That's fascinating, trying a different way of living. And on to sports, Anne has emailed in to say about 60 years ago, encouraged by my very low handicapped husband, I took up golf, hooked from day one. Now 94, I struggle to play more than four to six holes with buggy, but my local club has given me courtesy of the course, which is a huge honour. I still hit it straight.

I'm allowed to boast at 94. Yes, you are, Anne. Indeed, you are. Played golf yesterday in our second team in Newcastle, a really fab game for ladies of any age. It's been my saviour. And Julie says, I've recently been a convert to regular sport. I am five weeks into Couch to 5K,

as my eldest is doing it for his Duke of Edinburgh Challenge. My husband, a keen cyclist, is super pleased and supportive. I feel strong and powerful and can really notice a difference. It's ace. Off the back of this, I've been inspired to start a Pilates class in September. As a woman in my 50s, I'm now embracing sport. It's never too late. These are very inspiring messages.

Keep them coming in. Now, at Woman's Hour, we've been closely following the Women's World Cup in Australia and New Zealand. Germany have been knocked out, and a shock win yesterday saw Morocco qualify for the round of 16 for the first time. You really should check out the moment they found out on BBC Sport. It is absolutely euphoric. Brought a tear to my eye this morning.

Well, my next guest has also been keeping a close eye on the action, but for very different reasons. Dr. Kerry Peake is one of the World Cup concussion spotters whose job it is to monitor players for head injuries during matches. It's the first time concussion spotters have been deployed in the women's tournament. And Dr. Peake is here to tell us more. Very good morning and welcome to Women's Hour, Kerry. Why the need for a dedicated concussion spotting team? So I think that concussion is something that a lot of people are concerned about, particularly in the football codes, because this can be an injury that can have long-lasting

effects for the players. So with the concussion spotters, our role is a bit like BAR. So we sit in a room where we have the live action on the TV, but we also have access to every single camera on the ground. So if we see something that looks like a head impact or some concerning mechanism of injury, then we are connected via a headset to the medical coordinator at the ground, who is the independent doctor, and we tell them that we've seen something. So it might be, you know, England 5, it looks like they've had a head clash. And then we will look at the video footage, we'll check it from lots of different angles. And then we will then make our recommendations. So we can't diagnose concussion,

but we can certainly make a recommendation whether a player needs to be assessed. And then this information can be relayed to the team so that when they go on to look at the player themselves, they can use the information that we provide along with clinical tests to make a diagnosis. How much power do you have to intervene and to actually take someone off the pitch? Yeah, so we have no power. In rugby league here in Australia, they have absolute power. So they can recommend that a player is removed. In football wars at the moment, we don't have that power, but we certainly can make very strong recommendations. And because our tablet is also connected to the medical

coordinator, they can also see what we tag. So they can see all the angles that we will tag into our footage and we can show that to the doctor and they will make very strong recommendations if somebody needs to be removed. I can't imagine that being an easy conversation with the player because obviously their motivation is to keep playing. Yeah that's right and I think that that's where we sometimes have to have you know the player's interest at heart and yes the player doesn't want to be removed particularly if it's you know high stakes game you know this you know as you said about Morocco going through for the first time I mean those players want to play and you know a head injury could happen at any time and and so it is our job to to really advocate for that player and really look after their health and well-being first.

Is there disparity between male and female players regarding the likelihood of getting a concussion in the first place? So Anita, that's an excellent question, because certainly research is showing in some codes, but football, basketball, volleyball, that women seem to be more likely to sustain a concussion than men. And when we're looking at that data, it's really easy to say, well, that's a woman problem, you know, that's a her problem. And it's related to maybe biology or their sex differences. And I think that this is a really easy cop-out that we tend to do with lots of things because a lot of the data that we have around concussion and around a lot of the baseline tests come from male professional athletes

so that sort of sets this threshold and if we see something that's different we say that the difference is because they're women and really what we need to look at it is from a whole society perspective to say well why are women potentially being concussed and I think that when we're seeing the mechanism of injury for women they are more likely to be impacted by the ball when they are concussed it's generally through player-to-player contact when they're competing for an aerial ball and they tend to close their eyes much earlier in this competitive duel. And that's coaching. That's nothing to do with being a woman. That's the fact that, you know, they have access to lower quality coaches. They often come to the sport later. They don't have the same amount of, you know, hours of coaching. They don't have access to the same facilities.

And that makes them more susceptible. That's certainly, you know, my opinion. Interesting. And what about the effects of concussion? Do women feel it differently? And I think that's another excellent question, because again, we have the baseline tests and the data that's coming from male professional athletes to say that they recover in a shorter period of time than women. And women tend to have extended symptoms, and they also have more severe symptoms again i think this is slightly the skew of the data because women are more likely to report their symptoms and so actually i think that the the true symptoms are actually coming from the women and i think it's actually the men who are probably masking their symptoms and coming back too early because the gendered environment happens in both

ways and so men you know they're told to man up and you know we used to play and we got concussed and we get knocked out and we'd be out on the field you know the next day so I think that that men aren't supported to um to report their symptoms and I think we're probably getting the true effects really from the women so it's not that women have more severe symptoms I don't think I think it's that men are going back too early. And finally, Kerry, what's it like being part of this World Cup? How exciting is it having it on home soil in Australia and New Zealand? Yeah, it's absolutely amazing because football in Australia is not a particularly, how should I say that? So the men are not particularly great. The women are actually

outperforming the men. So it's really wonderful to have a sport where we can really champion women and get all the girls behind them. And I hope the legacy of this is that we'll see a lot more women and girls playing football. And that will be absolutely fantastic for the sport here in Australia. Dr. Kerope, thank you so much for joining me and speaking to me this morning. Your message is still coming in about sports. I a single mom age 57 and i joined a tennis club now play three to four times a week and was even on court at eight nine a.m today before work i've met lots of new friends it's been great that's from jenny absolutely loving the netball world cup uh netball is a fantastic game and has made a real impact on our daughter's daughter's post

grad university experience now we just need better coverage of netball it's a great sport that's from angela and um suan says i'm 51 recently started couch to 5k my husband is very supportive i think i've already read that one i'm reading you uh here we go from wendy in rochester says now my children are grown up i'm able to regularly go to gym classes which are really friendly and welcoming and i get to stay fit and flexible park Park run, park walk on a Saturday morning, also great. And we see families with small children in buggies, dog owners, people of all abilities and ages. Everyone is welcome. 844, keep them coming in.

Now, what do you consider before buying an item of clothing? The cost, the brand, the material? Well, journalist and TikTok creator Angela Chong says, we've never been taught how to shop, and that breaking up with fashion is like leaving behind a bad boyfriend. In her new book, Why Don't I Have Anything to Wear? She asks us to pause and think about how we shop for our pocket,

mental health and the planet. Delighted to say Angela joins me now in the studio. I am leaning in because I am so invested in this conversation, as I'm sure so many of us are. Is the point of this book to make us stop shopping? So when it comes to wanting to save money, wanting to help the environment, we can all agree on one thing, and that's that we need to consume less. So it's not necessarily about stopping shopping entirely,

but actually being able to do so if we want to. Because if we're honest with ourselves, and I have to be with myself a lot as well, it's not as easy as we think. Many of us are impulsive shoppers, if not compulsive, and it has no bearing on our income, our upbringing or even where we live. Why are we doing it? I think so much of fashion has to do with mental health. Then you have entire industries completely dedicated to making us want to shop, not least social media, but also, you know, traditional advertising.

And there's so much around us that makes us feel like we need something else to have a different lifestyle. And you were part of it because you were an influencer. So the reason you wrote this book is because you had an epiphany of sorts. What happened? I mean, it affected your mental health, didn't it? So in 2019, I had quite a severe mental health crisis. And it was one of those moments where you kind of look back on your life. And I don't know if you've ever had this.

And I really hope anyone listening has not been able to relate to this but you look yourself in the mirror and you think oh my god I really hate you and that's a very very dark place to be obviously that wasn't just to do with what I had chosen as a career but my career was something I could change and so I actually started doing something called the mindful Monday method and this was going into stores and reviewing clothes so turning them inside out showing people what quality looks like and how that kind of tallies up to its price. Yes because you were an influencer and like you say you had a mental health crisis I'm sorry to hear about that and then you kind of turned it around and you've just mentioned it the Mindful Monday method to help us shop better.

What is that? So it's five steps of shopping better for the planet and your mental health. And the most amazing thing about this is that it actually saves you money long term. So I'm listening. So one thing that people find quite frustrating about this is that it works, but it isn't going to make you excited to shop. It's not going to make you like happy. It's going to give you a lot of confidence and eventually peace. And that's my whole argument, that if we knew how to shop, we wouldn't really want to do it.

So what should we be doing then? Rather than running in going, oh my God, I've got to have it. And then just buy it and then go home and go, why did I buy it? And then it just sits in the wardrobe. Go on. to have it and then just buy it and then go home and go why did I buy it and it just sits in the wardrobe go on so most people they'll go into a store and they'll see something they think looks cute they'll check the price they will check if it's in their size sometimes they'll try it on in store or they'll just buy it take a home and try it on at home that's almost like going into a supermarket and just looking at an apple and being like yeah okay I'll grab that like not checking it over

not trying to understand its sell by date not thinking when will I eat this apple and so if we learn to approach clothing like we do with most other fundamental life skills we could be saving more money we would be reducing our impulse buys so what should we be doing then well if I give you the example of perhaps knitwear because visually this is quite easy to check over you go into a store you're looking for a new jumper let's say you see something the first thing I would say is look it over are there any snags do you does it have excessive pilling now something that people get really confused by is they think only knitwear only yarn can pill all fabrics can pill I don't know if you've ever um looked at the inner thighs of your leg pilling is when it gets bubbly yeah exactly we don't we don't love that um what

the word bubbly no bubbles in general yeah we don't love the pilling um you know i don't know if you've ever seen the inner thighs of your leggings where your your legs rub and even something like polyamide can pill so all materials can pill knitwear is more visual yeah i suppose and this is influenced by several factors one the yarn so the little fibers um are not tightly twisted so this can so does does this do we require uh basically to have information at our fingertips about material then so we should be checking the material this is actually something you can see yourself so this is not something that you even need a book for just listening to this right now you can actually go to a store check a check a

sweater and actually see is it tightly twisted and if there's pilling as well that could contribute to it other things are also longer fibers, shorter fibers. That's harder. But what I can give you a tip for is if you look at a jumper, you look at the care label, you'll see sometimes you have a lot of synthetic fibers that tend to be longer because they're manmade versus more premium fibers like sheep's wool or alpaca and or even mohair. And this will likely be shorter because they're natural and that will exacerbate the appearance of pilling does this mean we're going to be spending more money no not really because often people talk about um we should be buying less but buying better

and i think sometimes you think oh that means i have to be buying expensive and not everyone can do that but is that the case i think that's quite an unfortunate marketing ploy from luxury fashion, to be honest with you. I don't really think that has much to do with sustainable fashion. Buy less, buy better is a fantastic goal to have. It's actually one of my goals in my book where there's a quiz and you can discover. I'd love to know what your fashion goal is. But essentially, buying more expensive definitely does not equate to better quality it's about learning how to check those garments over yourself and then also learning

what those materials are and whether or not they align with what you would like to shop for example vegans would not want to shop for animal wool and that's completely respectable but other people would say I would prefer to have a hundred percent responsible sourced wool jumper that I know will last and other people will opt for something that's secondhand I've seen cashmere sweaters for as low as four pounds yeah because you talk about cost in your book you mention a few sustainable brands with price tags of 225 pounds for a camisole 400 pounds for jeans um but most people can't afford to pay that much yeah i totally understand i think these brands are choosing their pricing not just based on cost of business but where they are producing how they are creating

it that's not to say that these are the only sustainable brands out there. In fact, I don't believe in sustainable brands. There are definitely brands that are doing better. And then, you know, because of cost of labor, they will be charging more. But what I really want to impress on people is that you can shop anywhere that you want to, or rather that you need to, if you follow my method, because eventually you will be saving money and clothes will last longer. So we need to if you follow my method because eventually you will be saving money and clothes will last longer so we need to be checking the label checking the label turn your clothes inside out people always ask me how can i tell very quickly if a garment is good quality i say

turn it inside out if it looks as good on the inside as it does on the outside you've got you're one step closer to you're one step closer to finding something good and I always say choose your clothes like you choose your friends I mean I've just I have a multitude of friends from um um actually something that I'm really interested in and you mention it in your book is this discussion about buying less and being more sustainable and we we are the the idea of fast fashion has really sunk in we all know about it and yet we still shop it's the psychology of why we shop and you say at the beginning of fast fashion is really sunk in. We all know about it. And yet we still shop. It's the psychology of why we shop. And you say at the beginning of your book that you worked in retail. And so, you know, the tricks, you know.

So can you can you lift the curtain a little bit? Can you tell us what they do and how it works? Because you mentioned something about sales and the techniques around it that mean that we come in sort of out of our hands really so just just give us an insight into what they how it works and how it's somehow not out of our hands the psychology of why we how we are made to shop so basically retailers want to make the path to purchase as frictionless as possible this isn't always nefarious it can result in a really positive shopping experience but also only if you know how to shop so some of the I guess tricks of the trade that they use one of them would be brand senses the scent of the store how attractive the sales assistants are

I'm not allowed to name anybody but I think yeah we can all think of a few examples there. Also, how well the, I suppose, displays or merchandising is curated. In one of the stores that I worked at, it was considered accessible luxury. It was literally like a millennial haven back in the day with queues around the block. And every time there would be a seasonal turnover, we would rebuild entire wardrobes to house these clothing because it wasn't considered mass fashion, even though it really was, it was considered accessible luxury. And so all of these little tricks like this, but I think one thing that is really revealing is how brands sell differently to men versus women. And a lot of that has to do with the psychology behind it. And I think we have to ask ourselves, are we conditioned as women to shop a specific way?

Are we conditioned to shop emotionally as opposed to mission-based? Because men spend just as much as women do. And why do their clothes last longer? And why do they have less returns? It's not because they're inherently more decisive. That doesn't even make sense. It's because women are taken on this journey

from the ground floor of a department store all the way to like the 12th floor if that exists and you're led through all of these temptations and sometimes it can be really enjoyable but a lot of the time we feel quite overwhelmed and quite like pressured to shop pressured to buy something especially if we're feeling quite vulnerable yeah so we need to take the power back i have found it so fascinating talking to you um before I let you go though but before we uh the program ends how are you are you've changed your life around you've written this book you're not doing what you used to do now you're talking about something very different how are you feeling I feel very blessed to be able to do this yeah

thank you thank you for coming on and talking to me uh the book is out now and uh it is a fascinating read it's by Andrea Chong and it is a fascinating read. It's by Andrew Chong and it's called Why Don't I Have Anything to Wear? And if you do want to go and see our lovely, my first guest, Georgie Greer, who is up at Edinburgh.

Only one person came to see her the other day. If you feel like going to watch her one-woman show, she's on at the Gilded Balloon. Let's see how many Woman's Hour fans we can get in there. Let's pack it to the rafters. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hi, it's Annette Catwalla. And Charlotte Stavrou here. We wanted to tell you that season two of All Consuming from BBC Radio 4 is here. In this series, we'll be once again delving into our culture of consumption by examining the services and products that have changed the world. This time we're looking at houseplants.

I fell in love with that madly. The idea of just turning a plant into this giant analogue synthesiser. Running shoes. The beauty of it is you get a chance to understand performance at the highest level. And tea. It's the connection and the safety cues to your body that it's over and you're safe. And much more. So join us for the second season of All Consuming, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain

from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.