Woman's Hour - New menopause research, Singing for wellbeing, Greenland women, Office romance

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

A large UK study of nearly 125,000 women has found that the menopause can cause a loss of grey matter in women's brains affecting memory and emotions, similar to that seen in Alzheimer's. Published in the journal Psychological Medicine, the researchers say it may help explain why we see almost twice as many cases of dementia in women than in men. Professor of Clinical Neuropsychology Barbara Sahakian, from the University of Cambridge and the senior researcher on the study and Dr Paula Briggs, Consultant in Sexual and Reproductive Health at Liverpool Woman’s NHS Foundation Trust, discuss the findings with Nuala McGovern.There’s been much discussion about the benefits of singing, but with less singing happening in schools - over half of state secondary school teachers have said that their pupils never sang together in assembly - how do you encourage children and young people to sing and what are the benefits? As the BBC launches Get Singing, a Nationwide music education initiative, we talk to Julia Fraser, the head of Luton Music Service, and Baz Chapman from the Sing Up Foundation.Laura Dickerman’s first novel Hot Desk is set against the backdrop of the publishing industry over two generations. A couple of editors share a desk in a new office – and eventually fall in love. Laura talks about bookish characters, the romance of women’s friendships and getting published for the first time, aged 62.Global attention has been focused on Greenland since President Donald Trump repeatedly said the United States should take control of the self-governing region within the Kingdom of Denmark. Despite being around nine times the size of the UK, Greenland has a population of just 57,000 people, with the majority being indigenous Inuits. But beyond the heated geopolitical debates, we want to find out what is life like for women in Greenland today? Tillie Martinussen, a former MP in Greenland, tells us about women's position historically and the issues they face now.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Melanie Abbott

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, coming up, your brain and the menopause. A new study has found a reduction of grey matter in regions that tend to be affected by Alzheimer's disease. The researcher will be with us in just a moment. And we'll have Laura Dickerman in studio for her novel, Hot Desk. The book focuses on tension that arises over sharing a desk at work that leads to romance.

Now, historically we know that work is a prime breeding ground for relationships to blossom. But I thought, you know, with working from home and all the dating apps that there are, that that had all changed. But I was wrong. Among young people, it is still a common way to meet a partner. 15% have done it just so, according to you, Gov. That is more than via dating apps. Now, some reports say that workplace romance may have actually increased during the pandemic, but we do know they can be precarious and a potential hate-or nightmare due to inappropriate behaviour and worse, and yet they do continue.

How do you see office romances in 2026? Perhaps it's how you met someone, where you anxious about how colleagues, or indeed your boss, might view it. You can text the programme, the number's 844 on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number, 0300-100-444. But let me turn to that large UK study of nearly 125,000 women

that found that the menopause can cause a loss of grey matter in women's brains, affecting memory and emotions, similar to that scene in Alzheimer's. It was published in the journal of psychological medicine. The researchers say it may help explain why we see almost twice as many cases of dementia in women rather than in men.

And I am joined this morning to talk about the findings by Professor of Clinical Neuropsychology, Barbara Sahakian from the University of Cambridge and the senior researcher on the study. We also have Dr. Paula Briggs back with us, consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Liverpool, Women's NHS Foundation Trust. Welcome to both of you. Let me get into this, Barbara. So what did you find for those that haven't heard about your study this morning? Well, we found that menopause was associated with reduced gray matter volumes, in particular areas of the brain, which are associated with memory and learning, and also with emotional regulation.

So, for instance, the hippocampus and the entirino cortex are very important for learning and memory. And those two areas of the brain are actually two of the first areas to be affected by the changes in Alzheimer's disease as well. So is this new the first time that we've learned this? Well, the association of such a big study with these changes in this particular regions of the brain. And also we found changes that have been shown before where there's changes in anxiety and depression and sleep problems with the menopause. But this is the first time that it's all been put together. So we're looking at brain structure, cognition and mental health and a very large sample of women. Because I mentioned the 125,000, which was the overall study, but there was a portion within that that actually HUD MRIs.

So you're looking specifically at those physical changes. That's correct, yes. I think some will find. Sorry, go ahead, Barbara. So specifically we looked at those structure. is in the brain. And we were particularly interested in following up on memory because of this finding that women have more risk of Alzheimer's disease than men. So we really wanted to look at these areas of the brain that change early on in Alzheimer's disease and which are

associated with memory. And I think some might find the comparison to Alzheimer's is alarming. But I think you and the other people working on this study believe it could perhaps be a pathway to trying to understand those figures, why it is so high among women as opposed to men? Well, exactly. We want to understand why this happens. And then also, there are things that one can do to mitigate against this. So, for instance, having a healthy lifestyle is evidence-based a way that you can improve the outcome of the menopause. In another one of our studies, we show that actually having a healthy lifestyle puts you at 57% less risk of getting depression. So there are things that we can do like, you know, trying to sleep for seven to eight hours a night,

trying to exercise, trying to have a healthy diet, try to have a good social support system. And also learning, trying to learn new things, trying to keep your brain active, because we know that actually interestingly, there's some studies that show with music and also with learning the locations of places and space that you can actually increase areas of the brain. And Ellen and McGuire's study some years ago show that you can actually increase the volume of the hippocampus in the brain

by learning the locations of new places and space. Okay, well, that is all positive. But as we do know, you talk about Get Your Seven hours of sleep, ideally, it can be the foundation for so much health. But insomnia is something that affects people and even looking at your study, poor sleep is something that was reported. Yeah, definitely poor sleep is very bad. I mean, everybody, I think, has suffered from a bad night's sleep and you know that, you know, sometimes you can't attend well, sometimes you're more emotionally labile, you might sort of, you know, be irritable or have a low mood. So,

So it is important to get consistent sleep. And there are ways to do that. I mean, behaviorally, if you try to have a good sleep hygiene, as they call it, make sure you get to bed early, make sure you get to bed at the same time, try to make sure that your bed is comfortable, that the temperature is right, and try not to think about stressful things just before you go to bed. And that's actually key because many people either are working right up until the time they go to bed or they're thinking about problems that they have and that's very bad for falling

asleep. Uh-huh. I think lots of people will be nodding their heads. I want to talk about HRT, hormone replacement therapy, because it did, its use did not appear to prevent grey matter loss on the whole. Did that surprise you and tell me a little bit else about what you found in comparison to non-HRT use? It did surprise us because we thought it would be beneficial in that regard.

but the evidence is the evidence, and we didn't see that. It is, of course, incredibly useful for women for other symptoms of the menopause, so heart flashes and other things that they might experience, and we know that it's protective for osteoporosis. So there are benefits to it, but we didn't see it in terms of the decrease in the brain, gray matter volumes. There was one aspect I did see that reaction to, perhaps were better than those in non-age. Yeah. That's right. That's right. So

psychomotor slowing is what we call a hallmark of the normal aging process. For men and women. For men and women. And as we get older, I think some people can realize that they're not quite as fast as getting out the material that they have in their brain as quickly as they could when they were younger. So that it shows up on these different game shows where you have to shout out the answer, respond quickly for an answer, that it may be there. You might have that answer, but it takes you so much longer to get to it. And that's a kind of normal, what we call psycho motor slowing due to aging. And we did find that HRT was very good in terms of stopping that happening.

So that does seem that it's slowing down the natural aging process in that regard. Interesting. Let's bring in Dr. Paula Briggs here as well. Professor, you're going to stay with us. What did you make at the findings of the study when you read about it? I think it's always good to have good quality studies. I think this is obviously based on the UK Biobank, and I don't know how much you knew Barbara about what types of HRT the women were using.

And I suppose that could potentially make a difference. And I think this is a continuum. We're constantly looking at this area of women's health now. So it's not saying that HHRTHAs. H.RT prevents Alzheimer and disease, and that's in keeping with at least four previously published randomised controlled trials. But I think the points you've made about the focus on mental health and lifestyle diet and exercise are really important points. And I would hope that women are reassured by this study actually rather than it being alarming in any way. Why reassured?

because it's talking about things that we are all capable of doing to reduce our risk of cognitive impairment and it is hard, isn't it, to motivate yourself to change your lifestyle if you've got menopausal symptoms so the addition of HRT for eligible women who want to take it I think can make a big difference in motivation. I'd be curious for your thoughts on this, Paula. Women in the HRT groups, those using HRT,

had greater anxiety and depression compared with the non-HRT group. The results of the line. Further analysis showed that these differences in symptoms were already present before menopause. Does that tell you anything? Well, they suggest, actually, maybe this is to do with proactive prescribing.

And I find also that quite reassuring that women would have been seeing their GP for some time and that these mental health problems would have been picked up earlier on and GPs may be more likely to prescribe HRT for that group of women. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because I think, Barbara, it was 15% in the UK that had been prescribed HRT

that kind of was the catalyst to try and understand a little of what was happening with menopausal women. Yes, that's right. I mean, you know, it's important group of women that are taking HRT, so we wanted to know. But I do agree with what Paul has said, that, you know, there are different ways. of prescribing HRT and we need to know more about the amount that they get and when when it should be given to them and who it should be given to. But I also agree with her that, you know, we can do so much through lifestyle changes that we make to actually make sure that we go through

the menopause in a very healthy way and be much better for us. There will be Paula. There's a very good article by my colleague Zoe Kleinman online at the moment, talking about that women are much more likely to mask their menopause symptoms. You know, speaking about, for example, a reduction in grey matter in women that are menopausal or postmenopausal may not make people feel great, particularly if it comes to the workplace or, you know, situations that they might already feel that they're up against some challenges. What would you say to them? Yeah. Well, I think there's been much more discussion about menopause and a real focus on managing menopause in the workplace with support for women. So again, you know, I would hope that

this paper might empower women to be more open about what they may be experiencing so that they can access the right support at work. And I'm sure women have masked menopausal symptoms and the impact that has on cognitive ability and function in the workplace because previously there was a lot less sympathy with menopausal women. I'm wondering, Barbara, as well, because you look at menopausal women and the changes that happen to their brains. But we don't really have a comparison, do we, of menopausal women and men of that particular age? Yes, well, we all have changes in the brain as we age.

And unfortunately, obviously, they're very severe if you end up developing Alzheimer's disease in your older age. But we do know that there are these changes. And one of our authors, Richard Bethlehem, has actually looked at the sort of aging brain in women and men across the age ranges. So we do have some understanding about that. But, yeah, I mean, we need to look more at what's happening to the changes in the brain and how we can actually, you know, fight against those changes. Because, as I said, we can increase brain volumes through different things that we do. do and we can increase our physical and mental health.

So it's really worth focusing on that side of things so that you have the best possible outcome. We talk about building cognitive reserves. So through education and through giving women opportunities to have higher level jobs is one way to actually boost this cognitive reserve and make it easier to have a healthy brain throughout your life. So the more you work your brain, the more you may stave off. some of these changes we're talking about.

Absolutely. So I imagine what's the next study you would love to have done, Barbara? What are the answers that are burning for you? Well, I'm still looking at lifestyle factors because I do want to know more about that because evidence-based for those is so important. But we're also wanting to follow these women up, obviously, into older age

so that we can see exactly what happens to them and what changes we see. and whether HRT can prevent some of them. Really interesting. Thank you so much for joining us, Professor of Clinical Neuropsychology. That's Barbara Sahakian. We also had Dr. Paula Briggs,

consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Liverpool Women's NHS Foundation Trust. I was asking you about workplace romances. One person who's got in touch, I met my fiancé as a vet. He is a farmer. So says Sally in Cambridge, here 84844, if you'd like to get in touch.

We were talking about all those things that can get your brain fizzing, expand your thought process and may have better for your well-being. Well, today, I think this is related. Sees the launch of BBC Get Singing. It's the BBC's largest nationwide music education initiative in more than 10 years. It's partnering with singing groups and organisations across the UK. It will provide resources to encourage collective singing for children between the ages of 11 to 14.

there is less singing happening in secondary schools and we're talking about why it is important to get this age group engaged and also what's available to them. Well with me is Julia Fraser who's head of Luton Music Service and co-director of the girls choir Luton Youth Cantores

also Baz Chapman joined head of the Sing Up Foundation a charity which champions singing for health and well-being. I think we need to start with a little bit of music and let us listen to the girls from the Luton Youth Cantore. Julia, why do we need to target children that are age 11 to 14, do you think? Because it's just so good for their mental health, their social skills, their community building, their sense of belonging. It gives them a purpose in life. And I think, especially in Luton, but I think in many places across the country, we've nailed singing in primary schools.

Have we? Well, we have in Luton. We think we absolutely love it. We take a thousand children on the same day to Young Voices in London and have 29 school choirs at the same time. And we've got singing assemblies full of joy across the town. And then they get up to high school. And because lunchtimes have been squashed to half hour or 45 minutes, so there's no behaviour problems, all these lunchtime clubs are, you know, disseminated. And things aren't really happening. And the arts, as we know, has been squeezed and staffing for music has been squeezed.

So there's less opportunity for clubs to happen. and after-school activities. And so there's this big rise of singing in primary school and they get to high school and then sometimes they don't even have a choir. And the music stops. And the music stops. And we have, in Luton, we've spent a long time looking at this and looking at ways to build it up.

And last year we actually ran a music, singing, transition project from year six into year seven. So we taught through our staff and our relationships with all the other primary schools that we're not doing, the singing in, every child in year six learned the same song. They learnt Miles Smith stargazing because he actually comes from Luton. And we got permission from his production team to do it. And then when they went up to their high schools on their transition day,

they sang it en masse as Year 7s. And it absolutely blew the roof off the schools and was a way to say, yes, singing is still happening in schools across the town. Baz, you've been nodding your head along with a lot of what Julia has been saying there. How would you describe how singing can affect our well-being? Well, there's a range of different ways, actually. From a brain point of view, people have been brain scanned while singing and parts of the brain light up in a way that no other activity does.

But there's also the physiological aspects of it, the increase in oxytocin, endorphins, dopamine, serotonin. So these are all kind of positive hormones. but there's also a reduction in cortisol, which is a stress hormone. So those things combined mean that the activity of singing can be really powerful. I mean, that's a very sciencey way of putting it, but that song you played at the top of the show, never be enough. You heard the group singing together in unison, singing the same line,

and then they went into harmony. That moment when you're singing with other people and you're attuned to what they're doing and you're making music together is incredibly empowering. And for young people that are going through change, they're looking at their own identity, they're wondering how to connect with each other, they're wondering about what their tastes are in the world.

Something that brings them together to make music together is incredibly powerful. It's so interesting. I'm just thinking back to an interview I did yesterday with Janus Varfakis, who was the former Greek finance minister, and we were talking about the manosphere or the rise in toxic masculinity, as he's seen it. and he thought a way to combat it was the arts.

Now, I don't know whether we're thinking specifically about singing, but it's coming from my mind here as we talk about 11 to 14-year-olds, Julia. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's just absolutely empowering. We've got so many girls who are on the poverty line. 27% of our intake for our music centre are free school meals children. And we've taken girls on tour who have never left Luton. We've taken them to Disneyland Paris to sing on a performance,

stage and sing at La Madelaine Church. We've taken them to the Rhineland and they have come from families with very low aspiration and they've decided if I can do this, if I can stand on the town hall steps of my own town for remembrance service and I can go to the Rhineland and sing, I can do anything and I can go to university and I can achieve some goals and it gives them this power when they believe that they can not only learn stuff from memory in three-part harmony and sing in their own town, but oh my God, I'm going to go and sing over here. And it just empowers them to, you know, set their sights high.

Baz? Yeah, that's right. I think the other thing to say is that there's a, we are a nation of singers. There are millions of people who sing regularly in the UK. And as a result, there is a huge infrastructure of singing providers. There's online ones like Sing Up, but there's also brilliant organisations like Julius all around the country. So the Get Singing program fits brilliantly.

within this infrastructure, but it shines the light on this particular age group where we want to counter that dropping off. Because when you bring people to sing together and there's some high quality provision that they can key into, we constantly see these benefits that Julia's talking about across the board. I'm wondering, though, you know, because people can be embarrassing, right? And particularly that age, 11 to 14, you can be quite self-conscious and trying to fit in with your peers and if your pals aren't into it, perhaps you won't be too. But how do you corral them or get music that they want to sing? What's that process like? Well, some of that's just about choosing the right kind of thing, but connection is so important. Meeting young people

where they are, finding out what they're interested in. That doesn't necessarily mean you've always got to do the kind of songs that they're listening to at the time. But it's what works for them and how can they be involved in the process of finding out. what their group is about, what they like to sing. And also recognising there's just a vast range of genres that you can explore, rap and lyricism, classical, jazz, gospel, whatever. So there's so much opportunity there. I think what can be difficult for schools is finding the space

and kind of knowing where to get started. And that's where we want to be able to provide, as a nation, a whole range of choice. Anything particularly popular with the kids, Julia, that you know they're going to go for music-wise? Well, at the moment, they absolutely love the musical theatre genre in our girls' choir. Yeah, and the whole wicked sensation.

We're saving K-pop demon hunters for our singing festivals for the primary children. We have a couple of messages coming in. Here's one from Southampton, Tracy. When I was a primary school pupil in the 70s, we sang every day. But every week we all sang as we listened to a program on the radio produced by the BBC. It was called singing together

and it was wonderful. I learned so many folk and international songs while listening to that programme. It's one of the things I loved about school. I went on to be in choirs in school and college

and I still sing now as part of a worship team at church. I love singing. It brings such joy. Here's another. I work at a school in Bristol called Trinity Academy.

Choir is obligatory once a week for all students in year seven and eight. It then becomes optional from year nine. We're a state school in among the 10th most deprived areas of England.

It's brilliant, one of my favourite duties where I have to support the singing. Just yesterday the whole of Year 7 and 8 performed in the Bristol Beacon Theatre concert hall and that's Harriet who's on maternity leave and tuned into us this morning. That's absolutely brilliant and we are wanting to get those children singing in year 7 and 8

and I think with the fact that the boys' voices are starting to break and you're competing with... Oh yeah. You're competing also with football and chess club and Lego Club and everything else. But for girls as well, they can, as long as you, Baz was right, as long as you get the right hook

and you choose the right material and you are relating to their genre and you include them in the music making, then there is no holes barge. You can get those children singing. You've just got to provide the right opportunities and the right material. Is it different, Baz, reaching out to girls or boys

and trying to get them to sing? There can be some differences. certainly the voice changes it can be different. But actually, I think it's more to do with the fact that at that age, there's so much going on. And it can be a place of real anxiety and mental health challenge. And the singing and vocal work is universal in its ability to be able to help with that and provide a safe, social, calming, uplifting and positive space,

but also a space to, when it's done creatively, to deal with emotions and talk about your own story. So having space within school time to be able to do that is key. And it looks like there are policy shifts that are pointing towards more space to do that kind of thing as part of learning, which is brilliant. And I know these are resources for teachers and that will be happening, for example, in singing clubs.

But I'm just thinking about singing in the home for children. Oh, yes. I think it's imperative. and I think depending where you come from, some children are arriving in Luton at the age of four and they've never sung. And so that's why, yes, because culturally singing isn't part of their culture at home. And that's why we found that singing assemblies

and the modelling of singing assemblies are so essential so that we aim in Luton to normalise singing by the time they get to Year 6 when they're 11. So that singing, when they, as they're going through their education, is a normal part of the curriculum. It's a normal part of their music provision. It's a normal part of school life, and they absolutely love it. Funnily enough, with our transition project,

there were some high schools that didn't take part on the actual day because of lack of communication, different agendas. And you've never seen more angry year sixes, especially the boys, 90 children coming back to primary school and saying, we didn't get to sing the song. So we're really determined to get every high school on board this year in the town so that there are no upset children when they go back. Isabel's got in touch. She says I'm 17.

I sing in the West Sussex Youth Choir. I find it amazing. I've met so many lovely people my age. We're performing the Water, Divine's Tale in March. It's incredible how it makes it feel, how a group of young people have the opportunity to create such an amazing sound. I suppose that's it creating. I find that quite moving, though, the thought-baz of this four-year-old arriving perhaps in a new country and never having sung and being exposed. to that. I mean, that is a story in itself. Yes, it absolutely is.

In fact, at the Sing Up Foundation, we're really interested in displaced young people and what can help them integrate into a new area and do an activity that takes them away from the horrible experiences that they've been through. And the safety of the space of singing is a really powerful thing. Do you know, the other thing that comes through all the time, and has happened in our discussion as well in your comments, is this thing about... nothing seems to be as powerful as just making singing a part of what we do, just a regular act.

It doesn't always have to be the preserve of a, you know, like an audition choir. It's for everyone. We've sung to each other since we walked on the planet. And so there must be something in it if we're doing that. Here's another one. My daughter is well to school has six choirs, two age groups, mixed girls and boys. They compete annually. They don't call us the nation of singing for nothing.

if you'd like to get in touch 84844. But I want to thank my guests for coming in this morning and giving us such lovely things to actually think about and the positivity of singing, maybe be singing along as you are listening to us on the radio this morning. Julia Fraser is one and Baz Chapman is also our other guest. Thanks to both of you so much. And there will be, of course, more information about BBC Get Singing

on BBC Bythside. if you would like to have a little look at that. I also want to tell you about our latest episode of Send in the Spotlight. It's our podcast all about reimagining support for children with special educational needs. We're talking this time about attendance and fines. According to estimates from England last year, the overall absence rate for pupils with an EHCP, that's an education, health and care plan,

which spells out support a child is legally entitled to. The absence rate was almost twice the average. Attendance and behaviour advisor Jane Lowe and the actor in Sen-parent Kelly Bright talk to me about what schools should be doing to support families in this situation. Is the guidance mandatory? Absolutely. Okay, so it is mandatory for all schools to follow this. There is no leeway for any school to be doing their own thing around this

because I think this is key. Absolutely. Because often you'll say, well, it's just guidance and actually we do this. I think that's what parents are faced with a lot of the time. It's like, well, they might do that, but we do it this way. I think you're so right, Kelly, and I think it's really important for parents to have that message, because this might sound quite sad. If they go to page 10 of the guidance, it's a one-pageer, and it tells you exactly what does the support first continuum look like.

They need to go in arms with that and be willing to engage with schools and say, look, this is what our family needs. This is what my child needs. And if you'd like to catch the rest of that episode, it's on BBC Sounds. Just search for send in the spotlight. And if you do have a burning question about the send system, now is the time to email us. It's send at BBC.co.com. because I'll be able to put it to a panel of experts next week.

So do get in touch. We love getting your messages. Some messages coming in, Ray, the menopause that we were talking about and grey matter. I'm not all menopausal women suffer brain fog, exclamation point. For some of us, menopause gave us new energy and focus. Margaret Thatcher became primary. minister while menopausal. I myself undertook a new career in politics at 50. Please tell positive

stories, not just negative ones. Well, as my guess we're saying, they don't consider it wholly negative. I think they think there is ways to counteract it and it is an interesting study. So that's why we're doing that one. Here's another. I'm interested as a 53 year old woman to hear the doctors mention working to keep the brain well as we age. I agree we need to use our brains, but also want to add that overworking can be stressful. I would add practices like. meditation and doing creative things you really love that balances the brain and spirit. It has helped me through the menopause. I've never had to HRT. So says Astrid 84844. Please do get in touch. Right. We're going to step back in time for a moment to the publishing industry of the 80s with a new writer to women's error.

Laura Dickerman, good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. So Laura's new novel is Hot Desk. It's just been published here in the UK. It's set against a backdrop of the US publishing industry. over two generations. There's a couple of editors, that hot desk, you know when you share a desk, in a new office. And eventually, well, you'll have to read it, but I can say there's a bit of romance that blooms.

It's an interesting setting for us because we cover books regularly on Women's Hour, but we don't always go behind the scenes into the world of publishing. Where did you get the inspiration, Laura? Well, I've always been interested in publishing and early on I had a couple of small jobs in publishing, but mostly my brother who is in publishing in the United States.

So he called me up with an assignment. He gave me a one sentence assignment to write a book about two editors who were forced to share a desk and fall in love because the concept of hot desking had just been introduced in his office. And it was new to me. So the whole book just kind of leapt into my head after that. That's great. I mean, you know, the brother has an idea and you were able to put it completely into motion. And, you know, while we're talking about age and menopause and brain, etc.

And this is a first novel published at 62. debut novel at 62. And I, I mean, menopause has been very good to me. On the other hand, if I say anything stupid, you'll know it's because I'm post-menopause. We can blame it or whatever we want. It does begin in the present day with Rebecca. Tell us a little bit about her. Rebecca is the two, the book is told in a dual timeline.

And the first timeline is written in two voices, Rebecca and. her deskmate Ben. And Rebecca, this is post-pandemic New York City present day. And Rebecca is, she's very opinionated. She's a little abrasive. She's, you know, she has very strong opinions about things. And she does not want to share her desk. She also, her mother, Jane, becomes a character that's important in the book for the second timeline, which is 40 years earlier, early 1980s, New York City. And I was interested in, I knew I didn't know that much about the publishing office in present day because I hadn't worked in it. So my brother was helpful in giving me a little advice about that. But I realized I did know something about publishing in the early 1980s and what that

was like. Because? I worked for a year at the Paris Review in New York City in 1980. Well, actually it was in the 1985, 86. But I made it a little earlier because I wanted it to be, you know, typewriters, not floppy discs. Well, let's take a little reading from the book. This is 1981 and this is Jane going to the East River Review Office of the magazine. Yes, exactly. And this is her first day and she's been taken around by Parker, who's another editor, who's an editor and she's about to meet another intern. Knock knock. Parker barged through the white French doors. Jane was arrested by the site of a massive pool table. its green felt pristine and the gleam of unscuffed balls gathered into the rack, all of it rich with heft and color. For the first time today, actually, for the first time since she arrived in New York City last week, Jane felt a surge of familiarity.

Pool she knew. Do you play? Jane looked up to see a tall Willowy girl unfolding herself from the window seat. Willowy was the right word, she thought, and also refined, and not beautiful. Beautiful was too boring to describe her. The bones of her face and limbs were long and a little sharp. Jane might have said she was too skinny, but there was strength and lightness to her. Her hair was bouncy like a wellabalsam shampoo ad. She was wearing green cowboy boots, a long petticoat, a tight white undershirt, a chunky silver necklace, and a cropped black leather blazer. Jane had taken in all this in the amount of time it took Parker to say, this is Rose. Rose is a character.

And I think even thinking back to that, I suppose the gear has kind of gone. full circle at this stage. We're seeing some of the same fashions again. But it is easy to romanticize and glamorize really that world in the 80s or perhaps even now. What do you think it was like for women in the 80s? You say you had some experience of it. Yeah, I did. I worked at the Paris Review, which was famous for its fabulous parties. And they were really quite something. And the celebrities of that time were the men in the literary world. They were the magazine editors. They were the writers. And the parties were amazing. Frankly, as I experienced it, a lot of older famous men smoking and a lot of young, beautiful women

adoring them, I guess. And the parties were a lot of fun. I went to a few of them. But also, I was, I felt sort of young, too. And I wanted to get downtown and go and, you know, so I didn't, I feel like I wasn't, I was, I definitely felt as though what they got away with, they being people in power, mostly men. Yeah, got away with at the time. Wouldn't fly today in a lot of ways. But I do think that there are a lot of subtle ways that power is abused in workplaces, even today. Yeah, it's interesting because it can be abused and it can also be a place of, of course, great friendships, romances at times. but there's also that pendulum of, you know,

if it swings to inappropriate behaviour, for example, or people taking advantage in whatever way, whether in a relationship or not. Your novel has been called a contemporary workplace romance, the screenwriter Delia Efron, who wrote classic rom-coms like the Meg Ryan film, You've Got Mail with her sister, Nora, was recently on Radio 4,

and she was bemoaning the loss of the workplace dating culture. She said it was due to the rise. of online dating and working from home. When I looked at figures this morning, it actually hasn't gone down that much. It's higher than dating apps, for example, the workplace romances. And it appeared to increase during the pandemic.

Maybe people weren't under the watchful eye of colleagues so much. What's your take on it? And why did you want to focus on the hot desk? Well, I do think that people, I think that young people will find each other. And I do think there has been, again, in my experience, it's a 60-year-old woman, but interested in what young people are up to. And I have children as well who are in their 20s.

But I think that people are sort of moving away from the apps as what I've heard and more interested in meeting in real life. I think there's some really interesting things happening now in New York that I know about where that involve, which of course I'm interested in reading, book clubs, where people will go to bars or they'll go to restaurants. and everyone will bring a book and they'll read and they'll sort of network and they're very social. So you're meeting each other face to face out in the world. And I think that, again, you would think that the 1980s, the behavior at work, the three martini lunches, the inappropriate lunches, the inappropriate behavior has changed. And I believe it has changed, but also at work, I think when you put young people together, they're going to find out who they're interested in and pursue. that. A couple of messages that came in. My partner of 20 years flippantly asked our boss at his appraisal to be moved to my office and the rest is history. So says Eva from Margate. And I want to talk about

your New York grandmother who was an inspiration for the character of Mimi in the novel, her love of a stiff gin cocktail and a good story and a great restaurant. I love the sound of it. Well, it's so funny. When you write a book, a lot of people want to know exactly who the characters are, who is that based on? Who's that real person? And sometimes it's a little insulting and I'm thinking to myself, well, it's my imagination. I made these people up. But of course, every character that I write about is a little bit of me. And every character I write about is an amalgamation, a mix of people that I know, of people, and also my imagination. But of all the characters, the character of Mimi is a tribute to my grandmother. And her name was Zerlina Katz Dickerman. And she was wonderful. And I

spent when I first moved to New York City when I was young, I spent a lot of time with her in her apartment on the Upper West Side with a couple of stiff cocktails. She was an amazing she was amazing cook and also one of the scenes from the book with Mimi did happen with my grandmother where she sat me down and she went through her address book and she said she was going through all the names and addresses and she was saying dead dead dead to me. I love so much when I read that because my father used to do that. He has also past now, but he used to get out old photographs, you know of a football team that he knew

or something that he was on, or maybe a wedding picture, and he'd go, dead, dead, dead, dead. Right. And the best part was when she would go dead to me, dead, dead, dead to me. And I there's some feud there, but that was one of her things that she enjoyed doing. And she was wonderful. And so I really did feel like in this book of a sort of mix up of different characters, people,

I knew people I made up, that was the one Mimi who was really based on my grandma. And she definitely cut through. I mentioned that you got published at 62 for the first time. But you did write a book many years ago, a young adult novel that didn't get published. But I'm just wondering, how does it feel now? I mean, here you are on a radio program, talking about your book. Well, it feels amazing. It's, I do think it's interesting because I was, I went to graduate school early, early days, always wanted to be a writer. And I feel like I was taught in graduate school a certain kind of writing, a literary kind of writing, that I was very, I felt like that was what I was supposed to do.

And obviously, that was not easy for me to do. I didn't, I wrote a few poems here and there or a short story. But I think that what was unlocked for me, even back with the YA novel that didn't get published, also my brother's idea, he gave me a one-sentence assignment, was I could say to myself, this is a YA novel. And the voice just, it just poured out of me. And then 20 years later, when I got my assignment, I thought to myself, I thought to myself, of, oh, this is a rom-com. And it just unlocked in me a voice. That's my voice. I think, I hope it's a funny voice. I hope it's a, you know, just a particular kind of way of writing that wasn't the quote-unquote literary graduate school kind of writing that I had always thought should be what I did.

You freed yourself. And I freed myself. And it in the book is, you know, it's not a literary novel. But it's not a rom-com quite. It's a mash-up of genres. And I ended up writing about things that were important to me. And I ended up writing about themes that were maybe a little more complex, I guess. I didn't, it's not Anna Karenina here, but I do feel as though the voice is my voice. The concerns are my concerns. I feel really proud of it. And it was really fun to write.

And so that voice that got unlocked, that has felt really good. Now, before I let you go, someone, a little bird told me that you have a group chat with some friends and you call yourselves the hot crones. We are the crones. I'm reclaiming crones. I think crones are amazing. You know, I don't, I think chrome to me is powerful. I mean, it does go into this idea of menopause and postmenopausal and just, you know, stopping caring so much about how you look and how you present yourself and how other people think about you. And I just feel that there's real power in that And there's a real power in older women coming together and saying what they think and saying how they feel. And a lot of the theme of this book is about friendship as well.

And the sort of the romance of women's friendship, which I find to be really beautiful and really powerful. And to me, it was equal to the kind of romantic witty banter and all of the sparks flying and the enemies to lovers story of Rebecca and Ben. just as important to me is the sort of the romance of the friendship between Jane and Rose. And that was important for me to get into the book. Laura Dickman, her first novel, is Hot Desk and has just been published here in the UK. Thanks so much for coming into us. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. So many messages coming in.

Let me see. Singing has always been my release. Happy, sad, stressed. It changes your mood. I work for emergency services and I set my day up on the drive, on the drive in, excuse me. with singing and of course the drive home after a tough shift. Whether any of it is in tune is questionable, but it does do the trick to make us feel better.

It might surprise you to know that in the 60s, Dunstable Road Junior School, Luton, had a prize-winning choir under the baton of Philip Sanderson. We were amazing. Now in our 60s and 70s, lots of us are still now singing. And another, I sing to my three-year-old grandson all the time. He sings along with me. We play music together and he finds the beat and rhythm.

It's our shared love and communication. time. So says Carmel. Now, I want to turn to Jade Franks. Did you catch my interview with her? Eat the Rich, but maybe not me mates, is her hit comedy stage show. It's a sharp, funny take on class privilege. It follows Jade's first term at Cambridge University after swapping life in a Merseyside call centre for one of the UK's most elite universities. Now, despite the best efforts of some of her tutors to make her welcome, she still had a real sense of culture clash, particularly around clothing. I really enjoyed that culture of getting dressed up and wearing heels that were ridiculously too big and going out in Concord Square in Liverpool. But I think it was interesting as well because

in the show you tell the story of your sister. So that part of your life coming to Cambridge with hilarious and heartbreaking results in equal measure. How was that for you? It was heartbreaking and that's one of the stories in the show that is 100% true. She basically she came in, she was dressed up proper glam, makeup done, hair done and she was wearing like an off the shoulder blouse and one of the professors at my college was not happy with how she was dressed.

I think it was just because she looked really glam and kind of stood out a bit but he said it was because her shoulders were out which... That it was inappropriate. For a formal dinner. Yeah, for one of these formal dinners where everyone's wearing a gown and so he put a PhD gown over her to cover her up which is humiliating right. He doesn't know what hair

education is. He doesn't know how that feels as a person who doesn't have a PhD to be covered up with a PhD gown. Like, it's those things... To be covered up. And to be covered up full stop as a woman. Like, I think it was also incredibly sexist and like, they'd made a mockery of her

and she was really upset. And it was her birthday as well. You can hear that full interview with Jade on BBC Sounds. It's the episode from the 14th of January. Eaterich, but maybe not me mates, is on at the Soho Theatre in London and then moves on to Liverpool and Bristol.

I want to turn to Greenland. There has been global attention focused on it since President Donald Trump. Repeatedly said that the US should take control of the self-governing region within the Kingdom of Denmark. And despite being around nine times the size of the UK, Greenland has a population of just 57,000 people. And the majority are Indigenous Inuits. Trump's comments have prompted demonstrations from Copenhagen to Greenland's capital, Newk. But beyond the heated geopolitical debates, we did want to find out what, What is life like for women in Greenland today? Well, joining me now is Tilly Martin Nudsen,

who is former MP in Greenland from the Cooperation Party, excuse me. We did also have the Minister for Mining and Gender Equality book, but unfortunately she has taken ill, so we're not able to speak to Nair right now. Hopefully we'll speak to her at a future date. Great to have you with us, Tilly. Yes, thank you. Great to be here. Well, many of us don't know that much, really,

about the day-to-day life of the people who live. there. I do know that 81% of Greenland is covered in ice, so that must decide the lifestyle in some way, shape, or form. How would you describe everyday life for the women in Greenland? Well, we don't usually shave our legs that often because it's that temperature and you cover them up. No, I mean, it's pretty much like it is in any modern European sort of maybe a smaller town we're at the capital here. We're only 22,000 here. So it's not that many people compared to a lot of other cities. But pretty much like that, like we are doing our jobs. We're taking education and everything like that. But there is, of course, some differences to other places around the world. And some of them,

I think, of course, has to do with our transition from like the Hunter Gather Society and then going to a more modern lifestyle with the... in, I think, two generations. I mean, my grandmother didn't have running water. She didn't have a flushing toilet. And when she moved into those amenities, which was a part of the modernization, she was very suspicious. I have to say, of the water that came out of the fountain. We had to kind of explain to her, it was two different piping systems. So it's my grandmother. I'm only 45 years old. So I'm in the industrial revolution here, as well as the technological revolution has been happening in the span of maybe four or five generations only. So very, very, very, very

fast development here. And also it was a formal colony of Denmark until 1953, which is such recent history before the integration within the kingdom of Denmark. It does have self-rule for a number of

domestic matters. Others instead are from Denmark, and of course this is part of the discussion that's taking place at the moment. But how would you describe how the legacy of colonialism, for example, has shaped the lives of Greenlandic women?

Well, of course, Denmark and Greenland has some problematic chapters between each other. I would say that a lot of it has been sort of the beginning of a good redemption as we're in this crisis with Mr. Trump right now from the United States. But I think we have gone from a hunter and gather society, as I mentioned, in just a few. I mean, my grandmother and father was basically living mostly off of whatever he hunted and gathered, my grandmother gathered. And in that society, before Christianity, women was seen as equal or maybe even greater than men,

understood in this way that they could give childbirth. And if the men were out hunting, like in large groups and away for a long time for big game, women would still hunt, and if necessary also for big game, so nobody would go hungry. And I mean, going from that to Christianity, where there was a lot of chastity, which wasn't also in the old Inuit culture, in the old Inuit culture, most people would be married to only one person because of practicality. Most men weren't able to catch enough food to have feeding with two wives and their children. So usually it would be like that.

But if you wanted to take on another one, actually sometimes also on older women who were like widowed for some reason. And then he would have two wives that he could support if he could. But as mentioned before, she was doing everything. She was skinning all of the game. She was parting it up. And she was actually also distributing it to the village. So traditionally, for us, the women's role has been very much equal to the men's or almost maybe even higher regarded. And then we went into Christianity.

And Christianity is all about being monogamous and women. Well, it has been because it was interpreted by men, I think, very much a patriarchy that came with that. And all of a sudden, women were seen like, you know, someone who was supposed to do their work and not be seen and heard so much. And unfortunately, at some point in the 50s, I think maybe a little before, the men began to adopt that because, of course, they would see a power role for themselves. And that has changed the role significantly. And now we're back here in 2026 with very very... modern women. I mean, the new generations growing up is not having it. They're all about equality, going back to the roots and everything. And so we're kind of this hybrid. It's so interesting.

It's so interesting as people and some European, yeah. And changing so quickly, I guess. What would you say are the biggest challenges facing Greenlandic women today? Well, what we have seen is through this rapid development that we have had into modern civilization. is that the men are actually kind of getting behind on the wagon, as we have seen actually, in a lot of post-colonial societies. So they're ranking, very high in suicidal rates. Women are at the very forefront, and I mean by 60% or something like that, getting longer educations, sort of elevating their financial status

at a rapid speed through education. We're seeing the men falling behind on that a lot, And we're also seeing a high rate of domestic violence, although it's on its way down, luckily, as we're speaking. But we have been struggling with those things. And I think it's because the men's role all of a sudden wasn't to be the biggest hunter anymore. And then what do we do? I mean, and women have always been busy doing like all sorts of stuff. So they adapted pretty quickly.

And the men are struggling right now. So actually, of course, a women's problem and equality problem. Right, so there is that imbalance that leads to that tension. I do know that during the 60s and 70s, there were thousands of Inuit women and girls, some as young as 12, were fitted with contraceptive devices as part of a population control program administered by Danish doctors. There was an official inquiry. The Danish Prime Minister formally apologized. Are those ramifications still felt now by your society?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes, so much. This is something that we're discussing right now in the public debate. And before Donald Trump was trying to invade us or bias or whatever he's doing at the moment, we were talking a lot about exactly this point. And you have to understand in the historical context, it was a controlled test that was done first experiment, which was also done in Denmark before it was done in Inuit women. So in that context, it wasn't that bad. But what happened afterwards were that they were talking about this IUD, I believe it's called it, in English, they were talking about this like the new wonder thing because, you know, breath control pills could make deformities and in babies, even if you were off them or if you got pregnant on them and stuff like that.

So it was kind of the new wonder drug for, for reproduction, you know, family planning. And so that first test went well and that was okay. But then afterwards it was administered as a part of trying to control the population because they were thinking too many unwed women, which was why I was mentioning the whole Christianist thing before. And too many young women were getting too many children. And they were afraid that if it went at the rate that it was at that point, we'd be 91,000 right now here in Greenland.

Of course, only 57,000. And I think that is just a very very important. very short history. We're going to have to have you back and speak a little bit more because I feel it's an area of course that has the global spotlight on it but that we don't know enough about the women who live there. But I do want to thank you, Tilly Martinusson, who's a former MP in Greenland from the Cooperation Party for giving us a snapshot and we will speak more of course about it. Do join me tomorrow. I'll be speaking to the video game composer Jessica Curry and also we'll talk about the Winter Olympics beginning next week

and being the most gender balanced in history. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft turns out to be flawed? In 1999, four apartment buildings were blown up in Russia, hundreds killed. But 25 years on, we still don't know for sure who did it.

It's a mystery that sparked chivalent. chilling theories. Because these bombs, they're part of the origin story of one of the most powerful men in the world. Vladimir Putin. I'm Helena Merriman and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss first time round? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen first on BBC Sounds.