Woman's Hour - New PM priorities, Libby Squire's mum, Ugandan climate activist Vanessa Nakate, Gothic fashion

Episode Date: October 25, 2022

Twenty-one year old university student Libby Squire disappeared after a night out with friends in Hull in January 2019. Last year 24 year old Pawel Relowicz was jailed for 27 years for her rape and murder. A new Sky documentary 'Libby, Are You Home Yet?'available to watch on Sky Crime from 27th September and streaming service Now explores the case. Libby's mother Lisa joins Jess to explain why she wants to meet her daughter's killer, and the need for earlier intervention in 'lower level' sexual offences. Photo credit Sky. As Rishi Sunak becomes the UK's first British Asian Prime Minister and the third leader in seven weeks, what will be his priorities and how will that impact issues that particularly affect women? Jess speaks to Conservative MP Caroline Nokes, the Chair of the Women and Equalities Select Committee, and BBC political correspondent Ione Wells.A key theme of this years COP27 climate summit is expected to centre around who pays for damage already being seen in countries across the world. It's a major concern for the climate activist Vanessa Nakate. Vanessa is 25, she's from Uganda and, inspired by Greta Thunberg’s school strikes in Sweden, launched her own climate movement in 2019 protesting outside the gates of the Ugandan parliament. Now a UNICEF ambassador she joins Jessica to discuss her book, A Bigger Picture, and what she wants to hear from world leaders ahead of COP27. For an occasional series called Girl’s World Ena Miller went to talk to girls at their schools about their lives and how they express their opinions. Alice and India are 13 and they go to school in Stroud.Are you or have you ever been a Goth? Black clothes, eyeliner, big boots, lashings of lipstick' ...sound familiar? Fashion librarian Katie Godman's book 'Gothic Fashion - From Barbarian to Haute Couture' traces the roots of this long-lived, popular and adaptable look. She joins Jess and listeners share their stories of when and why they went Gothic.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, the UK will have its third prime minister in seven weeks as Rishi Sunak officially takes office later this morning. He'll become the UK's first British Asian prime minister. He will have many, many problems to address, including the economy, the war in Ukraine,

investment in the NHS, and of course uniting the Conservative Party after months of discontent. But what should be his priorities when it comes to women's issues? What would you like to see at the top of his to-do list? Are you confident that he will deliver on women's issues? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Get involved with the programme. We always like to have your input. You can WhatsApp us on 03700100444. Remember, though, that data charges may apply, so you might want to use Wi-Fi. You can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC

Woman's Hour and you can always email us through our website. Plus, who should pay the cost of the damage caused by rising temperatures? And who should be involved in conversations about solutions to climate change? We'll be talking to a climate activist who wants to address discrimination within the environmental space and believes that African countries should have more of a say in the climate crisis. We'll also be talking about earlier intervention when it comes to committing sexual offences. Lisa Squire is campaigning to encourage more women to come forward when becoming victims of non-contact sexual crimes after her daughter Libby was raped and murdered by a sexual predator. Also on the programme this morning, how much do you know about Gothic fashion? These days you might think of long sweeping black clothing, chunky black boots

and copious amounts of black eyeliner. I'll be joined by an author who has looked into the history of Gothic fashion and it dates back as far as medieval times. I'm even told that she may well be in full Gothic attire, so very much looking forward to that. All of that to come, but first this morning, the former Chancellor Rishi Sunak will travel to Buckingham Palace to meet King Charles this morning before entering number 10 as the UK's first British Asian prime minister and the third leader in seven weeks. He'll be leading a fractitious party at a time of economic crisis with a war in Europe. So what will be his priorities and how will that impact the issues that particularly affect women? Well, Conservative MP Caroline Noakes is the chair of the Women and Equality Select Committee.

She joined me a little bit earlier and I asked her whether Rishi Sunak will deliver for women. Yeah, I think he will. And I know that I've had very privileged access to him whilst he was Chancellor and I was chair of the Women and Equalities Committee. But I've always been impressed by Rishi's willingness to engage on issues affecting women, his focus on female employment, female-led businesses, what the government can do to help them. So yeah, I'm feeling very optimistic. So you've been impressed with his record so far. What, in particular, when you say that you're impressed with what he's done for women? Well, I can remember going to see him to talk about the hair and beauty sector during the

pandemic and him taking on board the concerns that I'd raised that they were slower to open up than other parts of the economy and asking him what he could specifically do to make sure that that sector was given support. I think as a result of an invitation from me, he later went to meet them. But I think there's a lot, a lot needs to be done. And the economic situation that we're in now is extremely challenging. And that's why I backed Rishi to become Prime Minister, because I think he has the experience on the economy that we're going to need to make sure that we get through a cost of living crisis, to make sure that those women who we know are at the absolute front line of

tackling inflation around food and groceries. They're the ones going to the supermarket and seeing the inflationary pressures. I think he is the right man for the job at the current time. And of course, we know that the economy will be one of his top priorities when he takes office. And as you say, women will be heavily affected by the struggle around the economy at the moment. What do you want him to do? What do you want to see from him that will help women? So look, as you can expect from me, I've got a great long shopping list of what I want from the new Prime Minister and his incoming government.

I think I particularly want to see a focus on those sectors that have been hit by the pandemic, but are very heavily female dominated. So look at retail, which we know has changed out of all recognition. I want to see the government bring forward a real commitment to flexible working. We know that we learned through the pandemic that we could all work more flexibly in a more adaptable manner. I want an employment bill that includes a commitment

to a day one right for flexible working. I think there are some big questions around childcare. And we've heard very little from Rishi so far on that issue. But I want to make sure that there are that there's sufficient investment in childcare so that women find it possible to go back to work and not perennially financially penalised by the challenge around childcare. And, you know, I think one of Liz Truss's mistakes was to do away with the job title of Minister for Women and Equalities. I hope that Rishi will reinstate that so that we have somebody in Cabinet speaking up for women every single week.

And my select committee has said over many years we want to see a separate Secretary of State for Women and Equalities because I would always emphasise that there isn't a single Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, because I would always emphasise that there isn't a single area of government policy that does not impact upon those with protected characteristics. It is imperative that there is a voice around that cabinet table, who is always speaking up for women, who is always speaking up for people from different ethnic backgrounds, who is speaking up for the disabled. And my view is, is that we've got absolutely the right thing with the government equalities office now embedded in the cabinet office. But give it its own secretary of state.

When it comes to childcare, during lockdown, Rishi Sunak told MPs that mums everywhere are owed a debt of thanks for juggling childcare and work. He made no mention of fathers in his answer, and he was criticised by some for that. Can he truly understand the realities and the financial pressures that women are under given his wealth? Well, my select committee did a whole report on the gendered economic impact of COVID. And what came out in the evidence sessions from that was that it was women that were doing the bulk of the homeschooling. It was women who were caring for elderly relatives. And yes, it was women who were having to ask for furlough so that they could stay home and look after children who were not in school.

I think Rishi's comments then absolutely reflected the reality. What I look at in Rishi is a man who grew up in my constituency with his mum being the one who ran the family business. And you have to remember back in the 70s and 80s, it was pretty unusual for women to be leading businesses. And I remember when I was growing up, it was unusual that I had a mum that worked full time. Rishi saw that every single day, that it is women who absolutely are a crucial backbone of our economy. And yes, he gets it. And yes, he understands the challenges. And I think it's really important that we allow him to put in place economic packages and measures that will allow the

economy to thrive. We have huge challenges ahead of us. But I absolutely recognise that Rishi Sunak is somebody who has got where he has through hard work. His family came to the UK with absolutely nothing and have built up an incredibly successful business. His mum was a pharmacist, his dad a GP. And so I sort of really push back on those who says Rishi can't understand what it's like. Caroline, when Sunak was running for leader of the Conservative Party back in July, he tweeted this, if I become Prime Minister, I will protect women's rights and ensure women and girls enjoy the same freedom most males take for granted in feeling safe from assault and abuse. How do you think he should go about that? So I've been very clear that I want

to see public sexual harassment made a specific crime. We've got a private members bill coming forward later this year. But to me, it's not good enough that this is left in the hands of backbench MPs. This should be a government initiative. We've seen consultation. We've seen recommendations from the Law Commission. I want to see our streets safer. I want to see particularly young girls. We know that girls are harassed on their way to school in their school uniforms every single day. That has to stop. And I will be calling on the new PM to make good on all of the debates, all of the commitments, all of the promises we've had to date and say, look, let's start really cracking down on what I regard as entry-level

crimes to more serious abuse. So those were the thoughts of Caroline Noakes, Chair of the Women and Equality Select Committee. For a bit more context on this, I'm now joined by the BBC political correspondent, Ione Wells. Good morning, Ione. It seems that everyone is going to want a bit of Rishi Sunak. Everyone will want him to deliver. Will specific groups like women be sidelined? Morning. Well, as you say, he has got a massive task ahead of him, a very, very deep entry with major issues over the economy, over plans to try and get government debt down. Of course, more on what he's going to do to help people with rising bills,

with rising inflation at the moment. So there is a lot going on. And as you say, of course, concern about what other issues may get sort of delayed or sidelined as a result of that. Now, I think there are a couple of sort of policy areas coming up, which will be ones to watch on this particular issue. We heard Caroline there mentioned childcare. Both Boris Johnson and Liz Truss talked about the fact that they may try and loosen rules around the sort of ratios in childcare settings in England so that childcare costs could be brought down for people. I think that is something that is quite likely Rishi Sunak would be keen to plough ahead with. In Scotland,

those ratios are already a bit higher in terms of how many carers can look after a certain amount of children. So I think that could be one issue that he is looking at in particular to try and support parents at this time. As Caroline mentioned, again, I think there is going to be pressure around that employment bill for when it comes around flexible working and what sort of new laws may or may not be put in place around that. I think another key policy area to watch actually, which will be interesting, is what happens to the online safety bill. Now, this was a big piece of legislation that is still going,

kind of going through the process of it at the moment. And it is all about essentially trying to protect people online. Now, there was a kind of clause in that bill, which was going to kind of crack down on what was described as legal,

but harmful language and content online. Now this was something which Liz Truss took issue with and was reportedly thinking of taking out. Now it's also during the summer something that Rishi Sunak said he would review to protect free speech so I think there might be questions raised about what that might mean for online abuse which of course is another issue which a lot of women in the UK have experienced, particularly women in public life. So those are some of the issues affecting women specifically. Now, will he need a women's minister at cabinet level?

There's already a women's minister at junior level. Will he need that at cabinet level to be able to deliver this? Because that's something that Caroline Noakes says that she hopes for. That's right. I thinkakes says that she hopes for. That's right. I think there are certainly calls for this. There was some upset when Liz Truss initially didn't appoint a minister for women when she was appointing her cabinet and had a sort of more general role for equalities, then later did have a women's minister. So I think there will certainly be pressure for him to have a women minister in the room,

as Caroline has touched upon. I think another key question will be how many women may get women minister in the room, as Caroline has touched upon. I think another key question will be how many women may get top jobs in the cabinet and be sitting around that powerful cabinet table? Because, you know, for example, we now know that the Prime Minister is going to be a man, the likely new Chancellor, although not confirmed, probably likely to stay Jeremy Hunt. So the question is, will roles like, you know, the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, Defence Secretary, will any of those roles be offered to women making some of the most powerful and impactful decisions for the country? And if not,

will there be women in the room who will be able to perhaps input to some of those decisions and decide how they may affect some of the groups that Caroline talked about? Thank you very much, Ione Wells, BBC political correspondent coming on to Women's Hour. Lots of you have been getting in touch yourselves about what you would like to see Rishi Sunak prioritise in terms of women issues. Someone here has tweeted to say, get inflation under control and down. Someone else has said, I would like the new PM to put all the Tory lip service into action regarding menopause. Someone else has said, provide affordable nursery places so women can be financially independent and also sought social care, which also disproportionately affects women. Thank you for everyone for getting in touch. Please continue to do so.

Text WhatsApp. And also we are on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. Now back in 2019 Lisa Squire received a call that so many parents fear. Her 21 year old daughter Libby was missing. Libby's disappearance sparked the largest manhunt in Humberside police history. Eventually 24 year old Pavel Relevich was convicted for her rape and murder. He was currently serving a life sentence with a minimum of 27 years. It was found that in the months leading up to Libby's murder, Relevich had committed a series of low-level sexual offences. Libby's mum, Lisa, joins me this morning, and she features in a new three-part Sky documentary called Libby,

Are You Home Yet? It's about her daughter and her fight for earlier intervention when it comes to low-level sex crimes. Good morning, Lisa. Good morning. Thank you very much for coming on to the programme. Just tell us about Libby. What was she like? Thank you for having me. Libby was absolutely incredible. You know, she was, everything she did she did 100 capacity um she was a great daughter fantastic big sister um brilliant best friend um she was really happy she was a very you know bubbly person um and yeah just everything was wonderful about her in the documentary you said

how sad you were that she was going away to university. So what was your relationship like with her? We were incredibly close. She was my firstborn. So, you know, I think there's possibly a stronger relationship, maybe. I don't know. We were, yeah, she relied on me quite a bit and I relied on her. We were, you know, like each other's other person, I suppose. And when she decided that she wanted to go away to uni, I did. I was like, oh, my goodness. It was really hard. I think I cried for three days after she'd gone. Yeah, it was hard, but I was so proud of her for getting to university. Really proud.

And she was studying philosophy at Hull University. And, you know, you said that she played hard and she worked hard, as many students do. But were you ever, I suppose, worried about her going out to bars and going out to clubs in the night? No, I wasn't. I mean, I say I knew she played very hard and, you know, and she liked to have a drink. And we always laughed that she could drink any man under a table. But I was never really overly concerned because fundamentally she was really sensible. She she it took a lot for her to trust people. And she had a good group of friends who she trusted.

And she'd always say to me, oh, don't worry, ma'am, I'm fine. I'm fine. So, no, I wasn't overly concerned. I used to say to her after I got the three o'clock in the morning phone call when she was, you know, very drunk or what have you, or she'd just ring me to tell me she was home, which was always so kind of her at three in the morning when I was fast asleep. The next day I'd say to her, oh, Lib,

you really shouldn't drink so much, you know, be careful. I am careful. It's all right, Mum, you know. So, no, I wasn't any more concerned than anybody else would be. Now, Libby was actually on a night out with her friends. She was refused entry to a nightclub because she was seen to be too drunk. And so they put her in a taxi to go home. There was lots of talk in the media, both mainstream and on social media,

about Libby being drunk when she disappeared. Now, how aware were you of that and how did it impact you? At the time, all the headlines were drunken student, drunken student, drunken student. And what it did annoy me because she was one of thousands of students that would be out that night and who would be drunk. I mean, that's what students do. I don't think it was really, I mean, yes, it played a part in what happened that night, but it was very, it was used in a victim blaming way, I believe. And it didn't really matter that she was drunk. What mattered was that it was another woman who was killed by another man.

But yeah, it was headline grabbing, I think. And also some of Libby's friends were criticised as well for putting her in a taxi rather than physically going home with her. How do you reflect on their decision? They did what they thought was right at the time. And I, they didn't know this was going to happen. So it wasn't, you know, if they had been aware that there was a sexual predator around the area, I'm sure they would have gone home with her. I'm sure it would have been a very different scenario. When I found out that she'd been put in a taxi on her own, I was upset. I was disappointed that they hadn't looked after her in the way that

I would have expected but I didn't blame I don't blame them they there's only one person to blame for her death um and from watching the documentary I I've learned something you know that actually those people have got to live with that and it's really hard for them as well. So I think I did them a bit of an injustice, really. Yeah, I've learned from that from watching the documentary. So Pavel Relevich was charged and convicted, but he's never actually admitted to murdering Libby or revealed how she died. Has that impacted your grieving? To a certain degree, yes, because it's incredibly hard not knowing how your child has died.

It's a massive part of their story, if you like. And my mind still goes to places that, you know, are very unpleasant because I do need to know how she died. He never admitted killing her, but on the other hand, he didn't stand there shouting, saying, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I didn't do it. So I think his silence speaks volumes. Yeah, so we obviously, the post-mortem couldn't ascertain how she died, so we're left with strangulation or asphyxiation, so one or the other. And he was found guilty in February last year. And that's the same year that a whole life sentence was given to the former police officer,

Wayne Cousins, for kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard. And you wanted Libby's killer to get that same sentence. He was given a life sentence, but a minimum of 27 years. Yes. If you look at Sarahah's sarah everard's case and libby's case they are identical both girls were abducted both girls rapes murdered and disposed of in inhumane ways wayne cousins had two pending investigations for non-contact sexual offenses against him whereas relevich was actually convicted of nine non-contact sexual offenses and serving a prison sentence at the time of his trial for Libby. Wayne Cousins was obviously a police officer and Relevich was a butcher or a meatpacker.

So I don't understand how one can have a whole life tariff and one can have, you know, a minimum of 27 years because actually the crime was the same and we have sentenced on the jobs they did in in essence so I whilst I have breath in my body I will try and change that. And that's why you are campaigning to highlight the reporting of lower level sex crimes because you believe it results in escalation? Absolutely I mean he started off know, with very so-called minor crimes and escalated within two years. I actually don't like the term lower level sex crimes. They should just be called sex crimes because they are sex crimes. And when we, yes, I understand we have to categorise them, but it almost makes the so-called lower level ones, you know, it doesn't really matter.

You know, is rape the only sex crime that matters? No, I think't really matter, you know, is rape the only sex crime that matters? No, I think they all matter. So, yeah, but they are, we can't say that all rapists, sorry, all non-contact sexual offenders will go on to become rapists and murderers. But I'm fairly sure you can say that all rapists and murderers started off with low level sex crimes. So, yeah, they are gateway crimes. And I think if women can report them, then the police will have more of an understanding of how massive these issues are. But if the police don't know anything about them, then they can't do anything about them. So, you know, they are not going to go out and get the man that evening who has exposed himself to you.

That is a completely unrealistic expectation. However, if you report them, the police then can join the dots and hopefully do something about it eventually. And you want to meet him. You want to meet Relevich. And I think he's agreed. What is it that you want to hear from him? He has agreed in principle. We've still got lots to, you know, a way to go and we still need to iron out a few pointers. I, for me, it's very much about being in the same space as the person who was last with my daughter. I knew most of her friends and I, you know, liked most of her friends and I don't know the person who was last with her. There are questions I need to ask like you know when she got in the car did you know was it evident that she was feeling warmer so therefore was she feeling better was she crying was she you know was she talkative was she quiet all these different

things that go through my mind and there's different questions every day um he's the only one that has those answers and I have a you know the last seven or eight minutes of her life I don't know what happened and he has the the key to that so yeah I would like to ideally I'd like for him to tell me how she died but I I don't think he will um but yeah that's that's my main aim is to just you know get some information from him about how she was and you feel that will help you most definitely help me. Lots of people don't agree with me doing it. But for me, it's a need. It's not, I think I've been quite public in saying I don't hate him. I'm not angry with him. I just want the information from him. I don't hate him because I don't think about him. And I'm not angry because for me anger is very destructive and you know it's very

um draining so I choose not to go down that path but he you know that's I I need to do it I need to do it for her I need to say you know okay I've tried to find out as much as I can you know and I um and I've been with this man and you know it's okay I. For me, I feel that if I don't do it, I'll be letting her down in a way. How much do you trust that you'll get an honest answer from him? Oh, I don't think I'll get very many honest answers, but I think what will happen is I know Libby really, really well. And I will know whether that's the sort of thing she would have said or not. For instance, in court, he said that she said, hey, man, I need help. There is no way that my daughter would have used those words. Absolutely no way.

So from what he says, I would be able to I know I'll be able to say, oh, well, that bit's right. But that bit, absolutely no way. You know, so I think and there's a lot of things in the in the way in the unspoken that you can pick up on people. You know, it's not just what he says. And you can't do that unless you're in the room in the unspoken that you can pick up on people you know it's not just what he says um and you can't do that unless you're in the room with someone so you know and of course he he could use this as an opportunity to inflict further pain on you there is nothing more painful than not having your child with you so he can't you know I mean the ultimate has happened and nothing he can say will make it worse for me you have three other children how concerned are you about them going out particularly at night in social situations I'm as concerned as any other mother would be I'm not

overly concerned because I know what happened to Libby was, you know, a one in a million chance. And, you know, these things don't happen every day, which is what, well, they do happen every day, but you know, it's highly unlikely to happen again to our family. I, I trust my children. They're very sensible. They're very, you know, they're good people and they know how to keep themselves, you know, out of harm's way. I hope they do. And we're very honest and have honest and open discussions about things.

And yeah, and I would be wrong if I stopped them doing things. I also think it's very important that I, you know, that we have an honest and open dialogue, as I said, and therefore they don't hide things from me. So, yeah, I'm not I want them to live their lives as the way they want to live them. And what do you hope people watching the documentary will take away from it? That Libby's death would be it could have been avoided in so many different ways you know there were I think 18 people that walked past her and nobody thought to phone the police or phone an ambulance, even though they, you know, they thought she was acting strangely. I want them to take away that things could be different, you know, so don't leave your friend

to walk home alone or get a taxi home alone, you know, go with them because it's not worth, you know, the pain and agony for the rest of your life if something happened to your friend. And I think that the big take home is what an amazing person Libby was and how loved she was by all her friends. I just adore the fact that when her friends are talking about her, you can feel this, you know, this amazing love that they had for her. And, you know, that we need to do something to stop men doing what they do. Having watched the documentary, it's full of photos and videos of Libby and how joyful and how loved she was. So, yes, I think that really does come through in the documentary, particularly the special relationship that you've enjoyed with Libby as well. Lisa Squire, thank you so much for coming on to the programme and thank you for sharing your story with us this morning. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Now, climate change is in the news more than usual recently. We've just over a week until the Climate Summit COP27 takes place. Now, you might have seen activists throwing cake at the waxwork model of King Charles at Madame Tussauds only yesterday. Well, this year's COP conference is in Egypt and world leaders and activists will discuss how best to deal with rising temperatures. A key topic of conversation will be who pays for the damage caused by climate change in countries across the world. One woman who speaks a lot about this particular issue is climate activist Vanessa Nakati. She's 25 and from Uganda. And in her book, A Bigger Picture, she focuses on the

need for the communities most affected by climate change to be central to conversations on solutions. Good morning, Vanessa. Welcome to the program. Good morning. So first of all, let's start with what sparked the climate activist in you? Well, in 2018, I started to do research about some of the challenges that were affecting the lives of the people in my country, Uganda. And in that moment, I realized that climate change was one of those challenges. And some of the impacts were already evident. For example, the landslides and the flooding in some parts of Uganda. And that really, when I saw that, I realised that I had to do something about it.

So I started the climate strikes in Uganda from inspiration of Greta Thunberg from Sweden. And what were you doing in those strikes in Uganda? What was happening? Well, for the very first strike, I had some of my cousins and siblings join me. And then the follow-up strike, sometimes I would do it by myself. Sometimes a friend would join me. But then later on, I started to go to schools to organize the strikes within the schools and carry out climate education. Okay. Were they successful? I believe they were. Now, when many people talk about climate change, it's almost seen as a future problem, something that will happen rather than something that is currently happening.

Is that the case or are we already seeing problems as a result of rising temperatures? Well, the climate crisis, I prefer to call it that way, is something that is happening right now and not something that we expect in the future. It's already affecting the livelihoods of so many people in the global south. Speaking from, you know, what is happening in Uganda with the floods and the landslides. And also, when I start to speak about across the African continent, I recently made a visit with UNICEF to Turkana, a region in the Horn of Africa. And this region is experiencing the worst drought it has seen in 40 years. And it left so many you know people devastated they can't access food they can't access water and many children are suffering from severe acute malnutrition we've seen the cyclones rip apart large parts of the southern part of africa cyclone idai in 2019

left more than 1 300 people dead we've seen the flooding in Pakistan, the water crisis in the Niger Delta. I think it's really evident that the climate crisis is impacting lives right now. Many lives right now. And in your book, you speak about a key moment that changed your approach to activism when you were at the World Economic Forum in January 2020. You had your photo taken alongside some other climate activists. And then when you saw the photo published, you had been cropped out. You were the only black activist in the photo. You were the only African activist in the photo. The Associated Press apologised. But what impact did that photo, that moment have on you as an activist and as a person? Well, definitely that moment, you know, it's such a powerful moment in my life as an activist and as a person? Well, definitely that moment, you know,

it's such a powerful moment in my life as an activist because when I saw, you know, that picture, I just wanted to know why I had been removed from the picture. And when I asked the question, many people were very supportive, especially online, and they were asking the same question as well. Why was Vanessa removed from this picture? And for me, it really, you know, sparked a very important conversation about the different lines of the climate crisis, most often they are the ones that are not on the front pages of the world's newspapers.

Like who? And these are the communities that are least responsible for the climate crisis. So poorer, less developed economic countries, is that the ones you're talking about specifically? Yes, because the countries on the front lines of the climate crisis, these are countries that you find, you know, mostly in Africa, mostly in the global south. And I've also visited some communities of, you know, black people within the United States. And one of the regions I went to is called Kansali. And I met some of the leaders of environmental movements there. And they explained to me that this is a region that has about 150 chemical plants, and it has really affected the water and the air in the region. And most of the families have,

you know, someone suffering from cancer as a result of the pollution. So it's not just communities of, you know, in the global south, but it's also communities of black and brown people, even in the global north. When you spoke out about that crop photo in particular, that moment that changed you as an activist, you received an onslaught of negativity, mostly on social media. But also with that negativity came a wider audience. So do you think you were able to turn that experience into a positive? Well, I believe that support from the people, especially, you know, online, was able to turn that moment into something, you know, positive, because there could have been a

possibility of me asking that question. And I'm the only one who asked that question and no one says anything. But when I asked that question, I didn't stand alone. Many people stood with me. And that's very important. And I think that's what really defined the moment. There's a chapter in your book called COP. And of course, the annual summit is just about a week away. It's being held in Egypt, in Africa. What are you hoping will be achieved? Are you hopeful that what you want to see happen will happen?

Well, when you come from a community that is on the front lines of the climate crisis, hope becomes a choice. You must hope if your community is to survive. And for me going to COP, I must be hopeful because that's where I find the strength to speak up and advocate with fellow activists about the issues that are affecting our lives. And as we head to COP27, some of the, you know, the demands of the different activists is the need to put an end to all new fossil fuel infrastructure, the need to transition to renewable energy, the need to address mitigation adaptation, you know, for developing countries, and also a loss and damage facility. Loss and damage is happening right now. And for people who may not understand what it is, loss and damage is, you know, that situation where the climate crisis pushes communities

beyond adaptation. And for me, that is what I hope to see at the COP, a loss and damage facility. Yeah, in your book, you do mention the fact that the African continent has just 15% of the world's population, and it's responsible for only between 2% and 3% of global energy-related carbon dioxide emissions. So who do you think should be footing the bill? Well, I think that the countries that are historically responsible, most of which are countries in the global north, they have a huge responsibility. Countries like, you know, the United Kingdom, they have a huge responsibility to help those that are on the front lines of the climate crisis. Is it a moral responsibility? I wonder in practical terms with countries like the UK,

who are struggling financially, as many countries in the world are at the moment is it practical for richer countries to foot this bill and and to spend money and help out poorer countries well I mean it has to be practical because the countries in the global south have been suffering the worst impacts of the climate crisis. And, you know, no one has been asking about how, you know, how much people are suffering or, you know, how are people being able to survive or, you know, how are people able to have their livelihoods and, you know, how practical it is to live in a country that is maybe sinking as a result of the climate crisis.

So it must be practical for historical emitters to address issues of climate finance. Yeah, and you mentioned there you'd like to see the UK doing more. We are about to swear in a new UK prime minister in Rishi Sunak. What would you want him and his cabinet to first address when it comes to climate change? Well, you know, speaking in terms of COP27, which is coming in just a few days, UK must support loss and damage finance facility at COP27 and put real money in it for the communities that are on the front lines of the climate crisis. And the UK must not invest in new fossil fuel infrastructure, and that means coal, oil and gas. Now, the COP president, Alok Sharma, recently said that as climate impacts spiral, loss and damage will be increasingly part of the conversation and should go even further than COP26.

The COP president also confirmed there should be a new agenda item to consider how best to improve the global response through funding and wider support. So it's clearly something that's on the agenda for the UK. In regards to tactics and how people protest and get their points across, you might have seen recently in the UK, a group called Just Stop Oil have all measure of tactics in the last few days. There was tomato soup thrown over a Van Gogh painting. The group also scaled the Queen Elizabeth Bridge at Dartford Crossing and closed that down for hours on end. There was cake thrown at the King Charles Wax Work at Madame Tussauds. Do you support that type of direct action? Is that how best to get the message across?

Well, you know, in terms of just top oil actions and the reactions that I've been hearing from people and the questions I've been getting from people, some of the questions have been, you know, how extreme should climate activism go? And my answer to that is also a question, how extreme should environmental environmental destruction go, you know. And sometimes, you know, especially with the reactions I saw with the soup and the painting, if only that, you know, frustration and that criticism, if only people had those same frustrations towards children that are starving as a result of malnutrition in the whole of Africa. If only people carried that anger and, you know, that frustration for the people that are suffering as a result of floods in Pakistan. I just wish that we stop discussing, you know, what mode of action is right or not,

or, you know, or not right, and really focus on the major issues that are happening right now, and people are suffering right now. And to be honest, it's really, it's a place of privilege for some people to know about the climate crisis through maybe their traffic being distracted. But for certain communities to know about the climate crisis, they leave it. They don't just get a traffic distraction. So I think people should really ask themselves where the criticism and the frustration should really be directed to. In your book, you talk of your admiration for the many female leaders who have brought attention to climate change around the world. If there were more women leading countries, do you think more progress would be made?

Well, I believe so. I believe so. I am very inspired by, you know, so many women. And again, one of the young women that has really inspired me in my activism has been Greta Thunberg from Sweden with the climate strikes. And another woman is the late Wangari Mathai from Kenya. And those are some of the women I wish I got to learn about in school, like Professor Wangari Mathai. So I believe more women leadership would give us a better world. Vanessa Nakasi, thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Hour and best of luck at COP27.

Thank you. And now there's been lots of reaction to the chat that we just had with Lisa Squire, who is mother to Libby, who was murdered. And Lisa's text in to say, listening to Lisa Squire, she is amazing. I totally get her stance. But as a retired police constable, I believe strongly that a serving officer should always get a higher sentence. This does not mean offenders get a lower one. It means a police officer gets more because of the breach of professional trust. Someone else also commenting on Lisa Squire says, as the mum of two 21-year-old

daughters, I can't begin to imagine what she and her family have gone through. Her clear, articulate and powerful description of her daughter, the events surrounding her death and her battle for justice are simply mind-blowing. I was particularly struck by her lack of hatred or anger. Not sure I could do the same in her shoes. Good luck, Lisa, in your battle for justice. And that's from Libby. Thank you to everyone for getting in touch. Please continue to do so. We're on social media. You can text us and you can also WhatsApp us or send us a voice note as well. Now, can you remember being 13, how it felt and what you worried about? On Woman's Hour, we talk about girls a lot,

how we raise them, keeping them safe, their mental and physical health, but we don't often talk to them. So for an occasional series called Girls World, Enna Miller went to talk to girls at their schools and their lives and how they express their opinions. Alice and India are 13 years of age and they go to school in Shroud. There is a sort of stereotype that girls are meaner. Definitely, completely.

I feel like with boys it's very much, you have an argument one day, the next day your friend's at school, like normal. I think girls hold grudges and I think that girls, once you've said something, even if you didn't mean it at the time, you can get flustered and, like, just say what you think and you probably shouldn't have said it. I think they hold that against you. Has the language changed? How are you talking to each other? I mean, if we're annoyed, we'll swear.

Yeah, like, that's inevitable. Yeah, exactly, like, we will, like, swear. We'll never really make remarks about someone's body. I think that's just out of order. Like, if you say that to someone these days, you don't know how they perceive their body. Yeah, I agree. When I was younger, people did say things,

and it was quite normal. Now, 30 years later, the tide has changed. Who's taught you? How has this happened? I think it's the media who have influenced us to like it like a lot of it's about body positivity and each individual person having their own look and their own way of expressing themselves and that's beautiful no matter what. There's other aspects of social media that kind of counteract that and they contradict that and they make you think that a beauty standard is like a fixed thing and if you're not that you don't fit in the beauty standard why is it down to somebody

else now to tell you what you should think I don't think it is but I get what you mean as in that has what it has come to be like it's come to be if we see something online and we see a group of people following that movement then we're like oh well obviously that's what we should be doing and I don't think it is right that that has happened but unfortunately I think if you see something and you see it's getting attention or people are agreeing with that you kind of feel obliged to follow and agree with it as well. As India said you do feel like you as a pressure on you to live up to what society thinks is right or what society says is the right way of displaying your body and the right image of your body that you should be portraying so what is that like to then have to follow a movement that you necessarily don't agree

with because even now as an adult, I see that shift and I'm in flux because I say to my partner, everyone thinks I should think this, but I don't think this. I've got no voice to say, but this is how I think. How does that feel? That is determining how you think at such a young age. I think it is quite exhausting, not even just talking about bodies now, just talking about opinions.

It kind of turns everyone into the same voice. In some situations that can be good, but then in others it doesn't make you unique and it just makes you one of a thousand million different other people all pretending they think the same thing and it makes everyone the same and it makes no one have a different personality. You need difference of opinions, and I think that's a really special thing that is among women, in that they have their own opinions and perspectives of different things.

There's definitely a positive and a negative, and I think they both, like, even each other out, and I think in the end that it is a good thing, but also it is definitely a thing that puts societal pressures on you. Interesting conversation. I'm not sure I was that wise at 13 years of age. Now, moving on to our next item. Were you ever a goth? Maybe you still are. Were you a fan of the black clothing, the big boots, the bold eyeliner and the black lipstick?

It's a look that has morphed and changed over the decades. There were the magic influence goss, the burlesque look, the vamp as seen by Morticia in The Addams Family. Even fashion designers like Alexander McQueen and Vivienne Westwood have referenced it on the catwalks. But its roots very much belong in the streets and in the clubs. And it's not just young people sporting this look. As we'll hear, many women have continued their love of goth fashion as they've got older. Joining me now is Katie Godman, who is a costume librarian, and her book Gothic Fashion is subtitled From Barbarians to Haute Couture. Good morning. Good morning. It's lovely to be here.

Great to have you on the programme, Katie. Just explain first, what is Gothic fashion as we know it today? I think Gothic fashion as we know it today comes from the 1980s, late 1970s club scene. A bit of a cousin of punk originally that then evolved in its own right and draws a lot on historical fashion and has since even since the 80s had quite a few other mutations and other offshoots such as steampunk and witchy goth and just sort of celebrating all things dark and historical and moody within fashion. And I have to say your outfit this morning is fantabulous. What are you wearing? Can you describe it to the viewers? We should probably take a picture of it, actually. Yeah, certainly. I've got on some almost mandatory for goths, knee-high Dr. Martin lace-up boots, which I've had for, I think, over 15 years, so they last. I've got a pleated black velvet skirt on. I've got a waspie, which is like a shorter corset, so it kind of covers my lower torso, and it's purple. And then I've got a waspy, which is like a shorter corset. So it kind of covers my lower torso and it's purple.

And then I've got a silky cowl neck black top on. And I've got some, I've got a black pearl and a black jet necklace. And yeah, I've got a couple of rings on as well. Yeah, so it's not just the clothing. Accessories come into this look as well, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So a lot of silver tends to be more associated with goth fashion. And black jet comes from Victorian mourning fashion as well, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely, yeah. So a lot of silver tends to be more associated with goth fashion.

And black jet comes from Victorian mourning fashion as well. So if you were mourning, you weren't supposed to wear shiny jewellery, you were supposed to wear darker jewellery. So yeah, so still got Whitby jet as well. So sort of British jewels, as it were. So you identify as a goth? I would say it's quite a difficult question and part of my book

covers that because goth means different things to different people. I think when I was a teenager and a student I was definitely more of a goth. I think as I've grown older I still incorporate gothic elements into my fashion and I work with and I love historical fashion so I think still like big boots and long dresses and lipstick but perhaps if you saw me walking down the street normally, you might not say that's a goth. But I have been also told I'm a goth. So it's a bit of a contradiction. I suppose so. It's an interchangeable term. People use it in different ways.

I think that's certainly the case for our listeners because we asked for their stories about being a goth. Let's hear from Jess from Winchester. I was a bit of a quirky child. I loved Halloween and vampires and dressing up, I suppose. So 13-year-old me did not realise I was gothic at all until we had a school-free dress day and a kid in my tutor group shouted, you're a goth, Jess. And I went to argue like you do look down at my charity shop leather trousers and thought well yeah you're right I liked that as an angsty teenager I had a kind of uniform that was easy to follow and at the same time if people laughed at me I didn't have to take it personally you know you can put it down to I was wearing big black leather coats and boots so it was like an

armor in that sense and it's really hard not to feel powerful in huge leather shoes my friend group were a bit like the breakfast club and I was very much the only goth in our village there's a photo at our prom and my friend is wearing this gorgeous gold prom dress, like blonde hair. And I'm stood next to her in purple five inch PVC platforms and this lace embroidered corset I bought from Camden. But I felt great. That is quite the image. And I suppose for Jess, it was quite an empowering look for her. But Katie, just tell us about the roots of this style of Gothic fashion and where it dates back to, because you go very far back in your book. Yes. So when I was, my idea for the book originally came from looking at Gothic fashion in the 1800s. But as I got into it, I sort of found out it goes back even further than that.

And in the 1800s they were referencing medieval fashion and renaissance fashion so I was just trying to trace it back as far as it went and then you're thinking where does the word goth actually come from and goths were originally a sort of northern European tribe that went to war with the Romans and things that goes all the way and they were the barbarians that you know brought about the fall of Rome so to speak so I sort of vaguely wanted to go all the way back there and then trace the sort of stylistic things that we associated with Goths that mostly come from the Dark Ages

and then bring it through to the 18th century when people really consciously started to dress in a Gothic fashion and that's when it's applied to architecture and to fashion in terms of trying to dress historically and then, then yeah bring it through to the 20th century as well so yeah wow it's a very long history and would you say it's still influencing mainstream trends today definitely I think there was an article it was maybe February or January in the Guardian saying goth is back and sort of looking at you know modern

pop stars and celebrities like the Kardashians have dabbled with goth and rihanna's definitely had a goth phase and i think it's something that never quite goes away it just keeps getting reinvented and and restyled and i think human nature and a lot most cultures kind of have a fascination with kind of dark mystical stories and then also the styles that go with that in different incarnations and tell us about the use of the colour black as well, because I think it has a different meaning today as to what it had previously when they used it. Yes, I think I find this really interesting.

I heard a lecture about it once and then I really got into researching it. But originally, if you think of medieval Europe, medieval times, dyeing, they would have been using natural fabric and natural dyes so woad and sort of fruit and vegetable dyes so to get black to get dark black is really hard so it actually used to be a sign of wealth as well as authority so it was associated with the church but the wealth within the church

and also the professional classes so lawyers and doctors it was a colour for mourning but it was really the Victorian era where mourning sort of these prolonged mornings and widows wearing black for two or three years really came into force because the industrial revolution started fast fashion so darker clothes and dyeing clothes with chemicals became you know cheaper and more widespread before that

black was a lot more ostentatious a lot more fancy and a good way to show off your um your jewellery as well against black velvet for example. And because of the use of the colour black I think today perhaps goths have a reputation for being a bit dark, a bit sombre, a bit miserable. What's your experience though? I think there is a hashtag now that's hashtag happy goth and I find yeah I think there's a lot of goths that enjoy dressing in a gothic fashion because it's quite theatrical and it's quite fun it's just like and it's quite fun. It's just like dressing up on Halloween every day. So I think there's definitely an element of fun and playfulness to gothic fashion, which maybe doesn't always come across in the media.

But most of gothic fashion, I would say, is about having fun. And there's a writer called Leela Taylor who kind of describes them. I think she says like the dark peacocks or black peacocks. That's definitely a fun way to be, I think. Yeah. As I mentioned before, it's not just young people. Older people are still continuing their love for Gothic fashion. Let's hear from another one of our listeners called Janet, who has just turned 60 this year. My wardrobe really still reflects the Gothic image

that I adapted in my late teenage years and early 20s. Obviously all that changed when I became a teacher. I still sported the bright red lipstick along with my hair which was still dyed outrageously red, dark, purple or black and one of the things I could really get away with at school was boots. Still had to wear a suit, but the Edwardian style ankle boots or the calf length boots with the laces and the small heel, they still defined my gothness along with my hair. One incident that really stood out for me during my teaching years was when I bumped into one of the kids that I told

in the high street his mum was going that's never your teacher and this kid was going it is it is it really is I was going through what I call my corset years so I was wearing a basque my tattoos My tattoos were totally on display, totally normal for me. Even in my coffin, I will be a goth. I gave my son really strict instructions and I know that he's going to follow it. I'm going to wear my black bat t-shirt and the back wings are spread across a chalice of blood. The t-shirt glows in the dark and I'm going have a long floaty lacy skirt it's all in a plastic bag in my wardrobe labeled death clothes in death as in life I will still be a goth you could just hear the love and the passion uh in her voice um it wasn't that brilliant brilliant uh it's

something that she's going to continue and something that I assume you will continue. It's not just a passing phase. Definitely not. It's not just a passing phase. Definitely continue. I even got married this summer and I wore a purple wedding dress. So, yeah, it's carrying on the goth tradition. Absolutely fantastic.

And if someone is looking to buy a few standout pieces, what could they do? What could they buy to emulate the Gothic fashion? Boots are good, but you can often find black dresses quite cheaply in charity shops, and then they can be altered in a really fun way with jewellery and cheap brooches and things like that if you're just trying to get started. So I would say a black dress for a girl is quite a good way.

Or, you know, non-binary, a normal way to go. Yeah, black dresses. Brilliant. There's some tips for our listeners. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. We'll be back tomorrow. And that's all for us on Woman's Hour. We'll be back tomorrow. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Lauren Laverne here with news of a very successful Desert Island Discs rescue. They've been missing for decades. David Hockney.

I went to the art school and they asked me if I had a private income. And I said I didn't know what that was and they said well if you've not got one you can't be an artist because you'll never make a living at it. Dame Margot Fonteyn. What I've always looked forward to most in my life would be an old age on a desert island just playing gramophone records all day long. And Bing Crosby. Could you build a house? No way. Shelter? No way. I couldn't fix a safety pin. But they're all back in Radio 4's Desert Island Discs archive, thanks to the efforts of keen vintage tape collectors. To listen to them, along with Dudley Moore, Sophie Tucker,

Noel Coward and dozens of other castaways, just head to the Desert Island Discs website. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.