Woman's Hour - New single-sex spaces guidance, Natalie Cassidy, Southport attack survivors

Episode Date: May 22, 2026

Yesterday, the Government published guidance on how the Equality Act should be implemented in relation to single-sex spaces. This follows the landmark Supreme Court ruling in April last year that the definition of a woman under the Equality Act should be based on biological sex. According to the new guidance, single-sex spaces - such as changing rooms and toilets - must be used on the basis of biological sex. This means, for instance, that a trans woman - a biological male who identifies as a woman - should not use female toilets or changing rooms, or a trans man - a biological woman who identifies as a man - should not use men's toilets. Alison Holt, the BBC's social affairs editor, joins Anita Rani to explain the guidance. Natalie Cassidy is the actor best known for playing Sonia Fowler in the BBC soap, EastEnders. She’s also been a presenter and has a successful podcast, Life with Nat. She's now returned to the classroom to study Health and Social Care. Inspired by supporting her dad through end-of-life care at home, Natalie has enrolled to study towards a Level 3 qualification, with the aim of becoming a professional carer. She joins Anita to discuss the experience, which is documented in an eight-part BBC series, Natalie Cassidy: Caring Together.It’s been nearly two years since the attack on a group of girls at a Taylor Swift–themed dance class in Southport. Three were murdered and others seriously injured. The families of those who survived say a court order protecting their identities has also left them feeling invisible. BBC Special Correspondent Judith Moritz has been hearing about the long-term impact on their daughters, and she joins Anita.And genre-defying musician and composer Hannah Peel joins us to talk about forging her unique career, whispers of encouragement she received from Paul McCartney and her new collaboration with Chinese percussionist Beibei Wang. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Simon Richardson

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Listen to the BBC World Service and BBC Radio 4 stations 24-7. Visit BBC.com slash audio or download the BBC app to start listening. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. On the programme today, Natalie Cassidy, aka Sonia from EastEnders, has acted pretty much her entire life. She was only 10 when she joined the cast. Now in her early 40s, she's gone back to education to study health and social care,

A journey we follow through her new BBC series about social care. Natalie will be here to tell us all about it. And this morning I'd like to hear from you about going back to education or retraining in a new profession, job or vocation. How was the experience starting from scratch? Was it difficult? Were you supported? How hard was the decision to go back into education?

How hard was it to get back into the classroom? Especially if you've not been in one for a while and you're the oldest person in class? Let's hear your stories of fear. maybe essay deadline anxiety or not. And of course, we always want to hear about your triumphs. 84844 is the number to text as usual. We'll also be hearing from the parents of some of the little girls who survived the Southport knife attack

and the impact on their lives this morning. And music from two amazing women who cannot be put in any box just the way it should be. Northern Irish composer and producer Hannah Peel has joined forces with Chinese percussionist Bebe Wang and the result is pretty spectacular. They will be performing for us live later and of course you can get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email us by going

to our website or you can WhatsApp the program on 0-3700-100-444. The text number once again 84844. But first, yesterday the government published guidance on how the Equality Act should be implemented in relation to single-sex spaces. This follows the land-es. Mark's Supreme Court ruling in April last year that the definition of a woman under the Equality Act should be based on biological sex. According to the new guidance, single sex spaces such as changing rooms and toilets must be used on the basis of biological sex. This means, for instance, that a trans woman, a biological male who identifies as a woman, should not use female toilets or changing rooms, or trans men, a biological woman who identifies as a man, should not use men's toilets. Dr. Mary Ann Stevenson, Chair of the Women, should not use men's toilets. Dr. Dr. Mary Ann Stephenson, Chair of the women, should not use the Equality and Human Rights Commission spoke to our colleagues on the Today program this morning about the practicalities of this. What there is is a situation where you both have the right to provide single-sex services and in some cases not providing them might amount to discrimination against women.

Trans people also have the right not to be discriminated against. And so there may be situations where failing to provide a service to them might amount to discrimination. But we have to take a common sense and proportionate response to this. So what we've done in the code is come up with a number of different suggestions for how, you know, organisations of different sizes can do this. So for example, if you're a shopping centre and you're remodelling your toilets, you might want to consider having both single sex and some unisex toilets in there. If you are a small community centre and you can't do that, you might decide to make an accessible toilet, which is already a unisex space and is often used, for example,

by parents as a baby change facility as well. You might choose to make that open to a wider group of people. But how you do it will depend on the circumstance. That was Dr. Mary Ann Stevenson, chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. And joining me now is Alison Holt, BBC Social Affairs Edison. Morning, Alison. So what does the new guidance say? Well, it sets out, as Dr. Stevenson said, the practicalities of what is expected for services and public functions. And that's a sort of fancy way of saying an awful lot of businesses which are open to the public in some way. It ranges from hairdressers to local authorities to leisure centres and so on. and it is aimed at preventing discrimination against people who come under one of nine protected characteristics.

And for the purposes of a lot of the discussions around this, we're talking predominantly about the protected characteristics of sex. So that's biological sex or gender reassignment. And that is to prevent discrimination against transgender people. So what the guidance says is that single-sex spaces for them to be single-sex, then that needs to be based on biological sex. And because of that, if, as you've said, you have, say, a trans woman, a biological male who identifies as a woman or a trans man, a biological female who identifies as a man,

they should not go into the spaces of their preferred gender. They should go in alternative spaces. And one of the things that I think is really important to hear is the guidance is not saying they should be forced to use the services which relate to their biological sex. What it is saying is that could amount to discrimination against them if you try and force them to use a certain space. instead they say there should be third spaces or gender neutral spaces which are open to everyone. So what does it mean in practical terms then for businesses and services and what sorts of settings are going to be impacted in particular?

Well, I think what it means is that there will be organisations and many of them will already have been doing this because we had the Supreme Court ruling in April of last year. And that was really clear in saying for the purposes of the Equality Act, it was biological sex which counted. Now, so they should have been reviewing their services, looking at what they've got and looking at what changes they might need to mean. Dr. Stevenson gave some examples there of perhaps it's down to signage and changing the way in which you use spaces.

Some larger organisations, there might be a cost attached in terms of creating gender neutral spaces or repurposing the facilities they have, you know, whether it's toilets, changing rooms, etc. As you mentioned, the Supreme Court ruling happened over a year ago. Why is it taken so long for the government to issue this guidance? Well, an awful lot of people are asking that question and have been asking it for some time. So let me just go through the process with you. April last year was the Supreme Court ruling.

Immediately afterwards, the EHRC, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, issued interim guidance whilst it was drawing up its full guidance to submit to government. It submitted that guidance in September, expecting it to be back in about six weeks or any changes to be asked for within six weeks. Instead, it was taking longer. It then withdrew the interim guidance. So we've got this difficult limbo for a period of time. And it's actually taken eight months since this draft guidance was submitted to the government for it to be laid before Parliament. There has been some towing and froing.

There's been consultation and a bit of changing of emphasis. And in terms of the process now, it's laid before Parliament. There are then 40 working days for people to raise objections, for debates and so on. And at the end of that, it'll either be sent back to the EHRC or it will become statutory guidance. Is that likely? You know, I think it's really difficult to predict in this whole area because clearly there are very strong feelings on both sides of the argument. So I think it's perfectly possible there will be debate and discussion. And you can certainly argue that's exactly what they should be when there is something in public policy,

which there is differences there are strong differences of opinion but it's a guesswork What's the reaction being so far? How has it been received? Well I'd say it's been received in the way in which you would expect it to be received from the two very vocal sides

of this particular argument so from the trans rights campaigners they say it is marginalising people who just want to get on with their lives is making it much more difficult for them to participate in society and they believe it's also unworkable.

And then you have the gender-critical women's rights campaigners who say this is vital for preserving the privacy, dignity and safety of women where single-sex spaces are appropriate. So those strong voices are still there there is also in addition to that, there's that feeling from the gender critical campaigners that now organisations need to get on with this,

that we've been in limbo for over a year. In their view, it's clear what needs to be done and organisations should do it. There are some businesses who are saying, we need to look at the costs, we're still working our way through it. But I would also mention, speaking to employment lawyers, what they say is this is a situation where this is guidance as opposed to law.

So if someone brings a complaint against you and says, I'm being discriminated against, it is not a defence to say I was waiting for the guidance. So how will it be monitored? Well, that is the question that a lot of people are asking. What the guidance says is that businesses and businesses, and services open to the public are not expected to police, for instance, who uses toilets. So they're not expecting someone at the door checking who's going in. I mean, I think we all agree that would be totally unworkable and also extremely uncomfortable.

But it does say there may be situations where it is proportionate to ask someone about their sex. but that must be done sensitively and being mindful of their privacy. I think in practice we're just going to have to see how it works out. Alison Holt, thank you for joining us this morning. That's the BBC's Social Affairs Editor there. 84844 is the text number. Now, Natalie Cassidy is an actress best known for playing Sonia Fowler in the BBC So EastEnders. She's also been a presenter, has had a successful podcast, Life with Nat.

Well, she's now returned to the classroom to study health and social care, inspired by supporting her dad through end-of-life care at home. Natalie has enrolled as a student to study towards a level three qualification with the aim of becoming a professional carer. BBC Caring Matters Week starts tomorrow. As part of that content, we can follow her journey in an eight-part series, Natalie Cassidy, Caring Together. It begins on Monday at 130, on BBC 1 and on IPlayer. and I'm delighted to say Natalie's here in Woman's Hour, HQ, welcome. Oh, thanks for having me, Anita. How are you?

I am very well. Thank you for asking. How are you today? Yeah, I'm really well. Really good, thank you. We are enjoying the weather, aren't we? We certainly are. You've been in EastEnders.

It's been, we're in it for 30 years. Yeah, 1993 I started, yeah. As I said, 10 years old. Uh-huh. We've seen you grow up. Yes. Why did you want to get back into the classroom at 42? Why? Good question.

I think going into EastEnders at that age, I was so focused on my job. And in a way, it was a very fortunate thing to be able to know what I want to do and stay and remain on that path in Albert Square for so long. But stepping out after 40, 41, thinking I want to change. I'd like to see what else is out there and push myself, talking to production company like Big Mountain, and sitting down and saying my passions are going back to school. I would love to learn something.

and then talking about the passion for caring and looking after my dad up until the end of his life. And we came up with this. And it's just been the best experience. And it is beautiful. I've watched a couple of episodes. I mean, we love you already. We're just going to see,

we know you're full of empathy and full of heart. And we just see it come out more and we learn much more about you. Before we find out about it, I just want to, because obviously, you know, lots of women who kind of, you know, lived life a certain way and all of a sudden to make a change to do something

different. Yes. We talk about the fear of stepping out of one thing and stepping into another. Like you're not, you know, you're at 42. It's very young to leave a career and then think what next, you know. Yes, it is. I suppose for me, stepping out of the square was a huge thing. And it kind of felt quite final.

I'm not saying that I'll never go back. But for me, I had a gut feeling. I thought, I don't know if I'm going to ever come back here. And it was scary. But it's been really lovely to face those feelings. and go into different things and I love being myself. Some actors love to hide behind it

and their art is playing characters whereas I really love being myself and I love talking to people and I love real life. So to be able to go into a classroom surrounded by students. It was daunting and these, I'm not going to lie.

To be 42, I think, oh my goodness, I'm the oldest one. What are they going to think of me? And had you ever, I mean, you went into EastEnders at 10 so did you leave education as well? I was in education until I had to be.

It was very different back in the 90s. But at 16, that was it. You know, full-time job, full steam ahead. And I was out in Albert Square for that time. And you decided to go and study level three qualification, health and social care. Yeah, it was a very, and you said, very personal reason for that. Tell us why. Very, very personal.

I've been around care for most of my life. My mum had my nanny Liz live with us at home. So, again, that multi-generational care has been a huge part of my life. and then I lost my mum at 19. It was a huge shock and then was best friends with my dad and as my dad got older he couldn't cope on his own I wanted him to live with me and then I was with him.

We had two weeks where I knew something was coming and you know dad died with me by his side and as much as that can be the worst pain you can ever experience I also see it as the biggest honour that I've ever ever had and I wanted to talk about that. I don't think we talk about that enough. And to go into a classroom, to be able to share my experiences with the students,

and to hear from the students' side, their perspectives on that. But the course was from birth right up until death, and the interesting thing for me about it is my heart is in elderly care, if you like. Yeah, we see that. However, you know, every single step of that course was so fascinating and the people I met were awe-inspiring.

So you were juggling the coursework with family life? Yes. How was homework? No comment. Let's put it this way. I've got a 15-year-old daughter. Did she help you? No, she didn't.

She laughed at me because she said, you've left it to the last minute, haven't you mum? And then you moaned at me. And I said, no, it's true, it's true. Maybe we learn the same way. And it really gave me an insight into not going on and on at Eliza, do your homework. Have you done your homework?

Do it, do it, do it. people learn in different ways. Yes. And again, it was such a good experience for me to take away and realise what the children have to do because there's a lot of work for them. People do learn in different ways, but I am going to give you credit

because it's slightly different, I think, going back in your 40s to sit down. If you haven't written an essay for a long time, to have to sit down and do homework. But I loved it. Did you? I loved it. Go on, what was it about it?

I just loved it. I loved the sitting down. I love the writing. I love the facts. I love the research. I even like bibliographies. It was ridiculous. You know, I just enjoyed everything about it.

That's not ridiculous. That's wonderful. So the series follows you through all your different placements. So tell us what, I mean, we start, I know the first episode and it's diabetes. Diabetes, children with diabetes type one. And then we go on to home carers. I go to, as I say, a dementia home. And there's an amazing, amazing thing that the college did.

You know, there were experiences and things put in place for us to feel that empathy, to put yourself in the shoes of someone you could be caring for. One of the highlights for me was the dementia bus, and it's later on in the series. Yeah. But there is a bus and you get on, and you have headphones put on with muffled and loud sounds. Your vision is blurred. You have spikes in your shoes.

And you feel what it could be like for a person living with dementia. and I just can't explain. I really don't have words to explain how that felt for those minutes that I was on that bus. It must have been particularly moving because you were good friends with Barbara Windsor. Very much so. Who had dementia?

Absolutely. And my dear friend Scott actually features in the documentary. It was married to Barbara and I go and talk to him about the experiences and that sort of thing. So yeah, the series is obviously all about the learning and all about my passion for caring, but it's also about the students,

what they want to do. It's also about you see pockets of my life and family and friends, and I'm very proud of it, I have to say. You should be. And so you mentioned the other students that we see you with. I have to say you work with, yes, teenagers, but very impressive young people who've chosen to go into social care as a career.

And I think the biggest eye-opener for me, is when you start talking to these students. Yeah. And they become your classmates and, you know, acquaintances. Let's not say friends, but you're with them. You're spending a lot of time with these people. You hear their motivation. And their motivation is always, this is what I've been through.

Tilly, for instance, who we meet. She's been a home carer since she was four or five, very, very young. You know, both her parents are poorly. And you think, wow, and you want to come into this. And I thought that was really interesting. And then I looked at it, it looked at it, and I thought, well, no, that's why I want to do this. Because if you've had those experiences, you've been in those environments, you've been around people that have helped your family. It's, you want to know what that's like to do.

And you wanted to do that. I mean, you talked about your dad, but there was someone who came. You share the woman who comes to help with. Yeah, Linda, my angel, I like to call her. And Linda is in the series because I got some advice from her because she's a carer. And when things were tough, you know, I learned the term within my course of sandwich carers. And I had very small children, a full-time job, an elderly father, a house to run, family, you know, all of those things. And that sandwich caring was tough.

So when I was busy at EastEnders, I found Linda and Linda used to come and help me with my dad. So my mind wasn't worrying about what was going on at home. And Linda was with me at the end of his life also, along with my brother. But, yeah, she's a very important person to me. again, you know, to do those jobs, to be in those rooms, it's the most important job in the world, right? Yeah. When people's lives are so, as you say, there's so much going on, it's so tough.

And also you are having to deal with all the emotion of a loved one suffering. Yeah. But to have someone there with you through that. Who isn't family, they're making a choice to do that is, I think, incredible. How did you not get emotional yourself? I did. I did get emotional throughout the series. It brought back a lot for me.

I got very, very emotional in one episode with lovely Lisa and Gary, you will see. Tell us about them. Amazing. So it's all about home carers. And I think it's estimated at the moment as it stands, I think, 5.8 million people care for friends, family and neighbours within the UK. Home caring is unsung, goes unnoticed. We don't talk about it. So I spent the day with Gary and Lisa.

and they were kind of mine and Mark's age, if you like my partner, in their 40s, late 30s, 40s. And Lisa had a mess and their whole life changed. They had their whole life ahead of them. They were travelling in New Zealand and Lisa kept falling over and she got her diagnosis and life completely changed. And I spent the day with them and they were smiling, laughing, making the most of their days. And I just thought, I can't do this. Life is not fair. How is this happening to these two beautiful people?

So again, it is a show. It's not sexy. It's not glamorous. It's a real show. It's real life. Real life. And I think anyone who watches it will relate to something. There's so many points in it.

And when you come away from watching, we're living in a scary world. I think you'll come away and go, they're good people in the world. There's great people in the world. There is an episode at a hospice when you discuss supporting people with grief. Yeah. How was that experience as someone who is dealing with it yourself? How was it cathartic? Was it tough?

Like, how did you deal with that? It was tough to talk about the grief, but it's very important to. We met a wonderful lady called Liz, bereavement counsellor, and I do break down to her in the series. It's just, again, one of those wonderful people with wonderful energy. You just let it all out. And no, I did, I found it very cathartic. But I talk about grief often, you know, in my podcasts.

And, you know, I think it's really important. It's something that we don't talk about enough. I'm just going to say to you. Do we talk about it? No, we don't. We don't. And there are spaces for it. What do you say?

When people come to you. I bet people open up to you in a way that they wouldn't with other people. They do, especially the listeners of the podcast. They really do open up and they talk to me and they want to know how I coped. And I've been through every end of the scale with grief. Because as I say, I lost my mum at 9. team which was a complete shock and you're very selfish at that age. You're out, you're living your life, your friends are the most important thing. So I carried a lot of guilt about that for a long

time, probably still do, if not anger, which I'm dealing with and I talk to people about and it's okay. And then grief where you're losing someone, but you've been with them and you've done everything you can and you're taking them out of the world. So not saying I'm a seasoned professional, but I've had a little bit of, unfortunately, it's not a great club to be in, but I've had that experience and whatever you're going through you've just got to go with it whatever you're feeling it doesn't matter if you want to laugh that's okay if you don't want to get out of bed that's okay you've just got to go with every feeling i think that's really lovely and important advice and probably very um heartening for people to hear this morning um so you have put yourself

through education yeah and now you've got this qualification what happens well we're not sure oh we're not sure did she get it we don't know we don't know We don't know. No spoilers. Do you think you'll be interested in pursuing it? Really, we'd love to. I would love, as I say, I loved it all. And as you see throughout the episodes, it's brilliant. But you'll see me as soon as I get into the room with the, you know, the elderly side of things, the older generation. I just love it. I just, I don't know what it is. I just love it. How do you feel about yourself afterwards? You know, having, I've asked this of our listeners. Yeah.

To put yourself through something, get out of your comfort zone, do something different. It's a real, I think it's a real challenge, and I did find it hard, especially the setting time aside at home because you're doing it yourself. No one's telling you to do something. And that application to do it on your own is really difficult. But I'm very, very proud of myself. And I am, and I don't mind saying it. I don't think we say that enough either as women. But I am.

I feel very, very proud of what I've achieved. And, yeah, I've loved it. and I hope to do another course in something else. And we can't wait. Make sure it's filmed. I'll read out some of these lovely messages. Oh, pleasure. At 63, I retired from 40 years as an accountant

and went to do a master's degree in Shakespeare. Writing essays was a challenge, but I've loved the experience. Just got the dissertation to write now. Amazing. Any advice? No, I haven't done a dissertation yet. Good luck with that.

It's a long one. Another one here. Undertook an apprenticeship degree through North Cumbria, Integrated Care and University of Plymer. which I finished last year with two one, well done, in podiatry, very hard work. I was given lots of support via the NHS Trust. The university and my husband, I'm now 58, and it was a fantastic opportunity and very reassuring

that my brain is still capable of undertaking such a task. And that's the biggest thing, isn't it, to impress yourself and say, yeah, my brain's still going. You know, you don't have to be young. And you can concentrate on something that you're passionate about. Yes. Something you want to learn. Yes. And that makes a difference, isn't it?

You actually know that it's for you. Yeah. It's been absolutely joyful speaking to you. Thank you so much for coming in. It's been a pleasure. The eight-part BBC series, Natalie Cassidy, caring together begins on Monday at 1. On BBC One at BBC I player on Tuesday,

we'll be speaking to Linda Bassett about the play care. Natalie, thank you. Thank you. 844-4. Keep your stories coming in. Now, earlier this week, Nula spoke to one half of the UK's most famous female comedy duo's best-selling writer Dawn French about her new novel enough. During the conversation, Nula asked her about her friendship with long-time collaborator Jennifer Saunders.

I love the bones of that woman. And really, our friendship came first, you know, and then our work. We showed off together at college. I love to think about when Dawn met Jennifer. In a flat. And we didn't really like each other to be. We're very different. We're very different.

And we were at different stages. Listen, I was in grief. I arrived at college with all of that. pretending to be happy. And I think she saw through that very quickly. She's very different to me. She's very calm and cool, collected chick, you know, and I'm not.

I'm bouncy people pleaser. And so she calmed me a bit and I ignited her a little bit. And we just made each other laugh. Then we shared a flat together. And I remember thinking, oh, no, I've got to share it with her. And it was only minutes later that I thought, oh, I love this woman. And we just invented characters together. And then we did them in cabaret at college.

And then we did them at the comic strip. And, you know, the rest is our history together. The serendipity off at all. Well, I am going to get my ticket for Cinderella at the Palladium in London, Christmas, because Jennifer Saunders and John are playing the ugly sisters. I don't know if you've ever seen a Palladium Panto. It is extraordinary. I haven't, but I think this is the one that's going to be my first.

Well, it's huge and naughty. It's probably the rudest thing you will ever see, with Julian Clary wearing 13 different outfits. And that's being as ugly as you can ever imagine. I can't. I can't imagine that. Neula, I'm just putting it out there. I'm coming with you to watch that at Christmas. It's a date. And you can hear the full interview tomorrow on weekend Woman's Hour or in the full edition of Wednesday's program on BBC Sounds. You can text us if you want to keep coming in with your thoughts of retraining later in life.

It's 84844. Another one here from someone saying I work in palliative care in Manchester. It's an honour to be supporting people and their families at the end of life. 84844. as I said, the text number. And if you want to email us, then please do go to our website. She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come.

The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's pride and prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama. Mary, you will flourish. Based on the best-selling novel, The Other Bennett Sister. now streaming only on BritBox. Watch with a free trial at Britbox.com.

Live BBC Radio is now available on BBC.com and the BBC app. Get global perspectives, rich conversation, and immediate reaction to breaking news stories wherever you are. Listen to the BBC World Service and BBC Radio 4 stations 24-7. Visit BBC.com slash audio or download the BBC app to start listening. She was the sister who went unnoticed. The affidil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now, her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself.

From the world of Jane Austen's pride and prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama. Mary, you will flourish. Based on the best-selling novel, The Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch for the free trial at Britbox.com. Now to a story, I'm sure you will. will remember and may find the details distressing. The knife attack in Southport in July 2024 has had a huge amount of media coverage, but the parents of some of the children who survived say it feels as if they've been erased from the story. 23 children survived what was

the worst mass stabbing in modern British history. Three girls, B.B. King, Elsie Dot Stankham and Alice de Silva Aguja, were murdered that day. Nearly two years after the horrific attack, The parents of the surviving girls say their children are being forgotten, their identities protected by a court order that they say has also left them invisible. BBC special correspondent Judith Moritz has been hearing from the families about the long-term impact on their daughters. And she joins me now. Morning, Judith. Hi, hello. As I mentioned, the details are very distressing and upsetting.

But can you remind us of the events that took place on the 29th of July 2024? Yeah, I remember that day. so clearly, nearly two years ago, hot summer's day, first day of the school holidays. You know, the parents in Southport, like everywhere, were looking for something for the kids to do. And Taylor Swift was on tour around the world at the time, and lots of them had tried to get tickets for the shows she was doing nearby in Liverpool.

It hadn't been successful. And then this Taylor Swift-themed dance and yoga class was advertised locally for children. And so it got booked up quite quickly, 26 children. went to join in with activities there. And the class was just coming to an end when, as has been well explained and described, a teenager burst in with a knife.

And as you just said, three little girls tragically were murdered. 23 children survived. Two adults were also there. In fact, three altogether, and they survived two. All of those who were in the room that day are now living with the psychological impact of experiencing that. And some of them as well, of course, still coping with physical injuries. Yeah, two years on.

And the impact on those surviving girls, as you say, especially if they have both mental and physical scars, are clear to see and still with them. Can you explain how the court order works? Yeah, so when legal proceedings got underway, the prosecution applied for an anonymity order. That's not necessarily unusual. It prevents the media from publishing any information or showing any images

which would identify the children involved, surviving children involved in the case, which at that time was going to go to a trial and then the attacker pleaded guilty. But that court order protects the children's identities up until they turn 18. Now, the parents support it, I should say, from the beginning here, because it's given them while they grow up, these children, privacy. but they also are now telling me that it's come with drawbacks because as you've outlined at the beginning, it has erased them, they feel,

from some accounts about what happened that day. And it's even made people in the community nervous, they say, are to approach them and has affected the level of support they've had as well. In fact, they've even been told by some officials, some council officials, when they did get help, oh, we didn't know who your children were or where they lived. Well, we can hear from two of the parents you spoke to now.

Two of their children were involved in the attack. Their names are protected by the court order, but we're calling the girls Bethany and Amber. Not everyone knows about their stories and how brave they were that day and what they did and they got themselves out that room. No one got them out that building. They got themselves at that building and, you know, I don't think enough people understand or know that. It wasn't an adult that dragged them out or shepherded them out. They got themselves out that building and, thankfully, they did. And they've come out as completely different people.

Like it's now we're just rebuilding them as a piece. There's things they do now that we've never seen them do before. They've lost trust. They've lost trust with us because we put them into that event that day. And every time somewhere we go, they'll make a comment of if we say it's going to be good or fun, that it's supposed to be good and from that day. And it wasn't. So that's now something we have to build up.

Every time we go somewhere, it's this safe, is this, is everyone going to be okay? Where are you going to be and stuff like that? Why have you decided to speak now? Because I want people to look at them numbers and them letters that they've been given and understand that there's so much more. And these are the parents of the girl we're calling Daisy, who was stabbed 33 times. There are 23 children who needed, and whose family has needed somebody knocking on their door saying, we are here, what do you need?

And that didn't happen. There is a very wide level of confusion over who is taking responsibility for these children and who is supporting them in now, but also who is planning for what that might look like in the future. I think we have fallen through the cracks. Very proud of it, Oh my God, yeah.

This isn't her life, and it won't be her life. She wants to continue living how she did before. With a curfrey attitude, where the only thing she really needs to worry about is when, or how long she has to wait for the next Taylor Swift album. Yeah. Not about is she safe when she wants to go and dance. And Daisy's dad shared a powerful story.

about how she explained what happened to her younger sibling. It tells you how the attack was seen through children's eyes. And while I was trying to fumble an excuse, she walked over. This was eight days after it happened. She walked over and said, someone's hurt me. Someone's hurt me, but you don't need to worry because

he's locked up now and he's being guarded, but I'm back. He's being guarded by Batman and Superman. So she's trying to protect him in that moment where she's ace. She is going through what she's going through. We shouldn't be re-experiencing failures from government in the recovery from something that happened because of failures in government. And that's what's happened. powerful reminder and also quite upsetting and very moving to hear those clips. How have the local

authorities responded to this? Well, the local authority in the area which covers Southport, Sefton Council, and also neighbouring Lancashire County Council, both told us that they continue to provide support for those affected by the attack. And they also say that they've coordinated their response with a range of agencies. So what could or should have been dealt with differently to help these families. Well, you know, look, every disaster and attack is different. You know, I'm reminded, actually, of another experience in another situation. I've also covered in my news reporting, which was the Manchester Arena bombing.

Today is the ninth anniversary of that attack as it happens. And that also involved children. Children there, who I spoke to over a long time, were not given anonymity, although I should say the legal proceedings were different. But, you know, what I've learned really through covering all of these different stories and speaking to the people involved. And part of the making of the film I've made here with the Southport families is that there's so much inconsistency. And that's what their lawyer, Nicola Ryan Donnelly, Fletcher's solicitors, told me. But she said that, you know, the support for every one of the families she represents has looked different.

So there's been no standardised approach. It's not the case, for example, that all the physically injured girls in Southport have received something, the psychologically injured haven't. And she said it's her belief that organisations have to come to them and ask what do you need from us to make this work. And you've heard from the Victims Commissioner, what have they been telling you? Victims Commissioner for England and Wales, Claire Waxman has said

that these are deeply concerning accounts. She said echoing, in fact, what she's been hearing from victims and families. And she added that moments like this, quality and consistent, as again that word consistent, trauma-informed support. It's not a nice to have thing. It's essential and in many cases life-saving.

So she is raising these issues. In fact, we understand that after meeting some of the victims herself and also our reporting, it's hoped that conversations with ministers will follow. And you also met with the girls themselves. So how are they? I did.

And gosh, that was an afternoon. You know, what a crew. They are absolutely brilliant, life-affirming, full of life. full of, well, they were filming TikToks while I was with them. We had a real giggle together. I think you can hear a little bit, which will just give you a sense of the different characters,

how they're all into different things, and they are so busy keeping each other strong. They support each other this crowd. It was brilliant to spend time with them. And we can hear a bit of that chat now. It's really fun when we, like, dance together and stuff, because it feels, like, we've all been through, like, the same stuff and only us really understand it.

So it's like, it just feels nice to be together. So when you're all together, is it silly or is it serious? What's it like when you're as a group? It's kind of like a fun atmosphere because we're all together and we're all like laughing, making jokes and just having fun. Thanks for talking to me. Thank you for having us. Should we all get some chips?

Yes! Come on then. Judith, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. That was Judith Moritz. And if you would like to watch Judith full reports, you can see it on iPlayer. Just search for Southport survivors. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard in the program today,

you can find support links on the BBC's Action Line website. 84844. I'm going to read a couple more of your messages. Dear Woman's Hour, regarding going back to college, in 1995 I gave up teaching due to ill health. I was at an all-time low but went on a college course to learn computer skills, then a medical secretary diploma. I worked for 17 years as a medical secretary and thoroughly enjoyed both the college course and my new career. Well done you.

Another one here saying last year at the age of 46, I decided to follow my dream and train as a reformer Pilates teacher. I'm now teaching regularly as well as working full-time, but I've never been happier and it gives me a new. new lease of life. My advice to anyone thinking of retraining would be to go for it. You won't regret it. Keep them coming in. Now, Hannah Peel is a genre defying composer, musician, producer and broadcaster. And she's created albums, both solo and in collaboration, many on her own label. She's written film scores, scores for plays, had commissions, original compositions and arrangements and orchestrations for pop artists like Paul Weller. I will continue. She's got a Mercury Prize. nomination for her album, Fur Wave, an Emmy nomination for her Game of Thrones score,

and she won an Ivan Avello songwriting award in 2023. You can also hear her eclectic music taste late at night on BBC Radio 3's Night Tracks. Her latest album is a collaboration with Bebe Wang, who is also here today, and like Hannah, you can't put her in a box. She's an artist, a composer, specialising in percussion. Bebebe has performed around the world with leading orchestras like the BBC Symphony Orchestra, as well as appearing as a soloist. And I'm delighted to say they are both here with me now to talk about their album, The Endless Dance, which is out today. Hannah Bebe, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for having us. Spine tingling. I absolutely love this album. How did it come about? How did this collaboration happen? We actually met in Manchester. We were making a record with the Manchester Collective, a fantastic contemporary ensemble. and Bebei, I met in the lunch break and I had a little chat and we just got on really well

our love of sound and being different places in the world and how to connect through that. And I had a residency at King's Place in 23 and I had to put on some gigs and I said to Bebe, I mean, we didn't know each other but I was like, do you want to bring all your stuff to the gig? I'll bring mine. We'll just turn up and improvise the whole night and see what happens. And it was, for me, certainly it was one of my favorite gigs that I've ever done. It was magical. Babeo, why did you want to work with Hannah? I was so lucky met Hannah.

And I actually knew Hannah through her music first. Of course. And then I always wanted to see and meet and talk and then go collaborate. Actually, it was the, as we know, the Ivan Novello's last night. And the Guardian wrote an article about a month ago about the gender disparity. I think there's more than twice as many male normal. as women. So we know you're in a kind of rare space. And when I knew I was going to be talking to you and I heard the album, I thought, you know, what a joy to kind of find other women to collaborate

with. No, it was that, is it different? Is it special? And is, you know, you spotted each other. You always wanted to work with Hannah, vice versa. So, you know, what does it feel like in the industry, kind of? Yeah, I mean, I've always been of the viewpoint of I don't really give a damn about that sort of thing. but I do. And I think one of the things that was magical between us was just an unspoken connection and this love of music and creating, regardless of everything else that goes around and spins around,

this record was made with a lot of fun and freedom and really shone a light on both our strengths. And it was really very special to make. I feel very lucky to have met Bebe. It involves lots of Well I describe kind of lots of Baby explain you said you brought all your toys Can and we've got this beautiful

The instruments We're going to get you to talk about them Your percussion instruments But there's a lot of voice-based sounds On the album as well Can you tell us a bit about that Like the speaking in tongues The tongue twisters, the breathing

Yeah because I'm percussionist Everything for me is rhythm And then rhythm came before language because I feel that's my past. So all the traditional Chinese dreams I bought today and all the experimentation, critical thinking about music

is what I learned in Britain. So I marriage and bridging these two worlds together and to make a conversation with Hannah. Yeah, so it was really nice because Mike Lindsay, who produced the record out of all the sessions, we did like five days in real world and I mean there was just hours and hours of audio.

But he took a lot of the vocals that we had from the record. Like there's me hiccuping every day. Laughter, like little bits of chat. And he's like woven that in through the music we created, which gives it this really lovely sense. So like the breath and the vocals. But yeah, she does, you're being very humble, but her like body is percussion as well as the drums.

Can you explain a bit about the sort of the tradition then, the Chinese tradition that you kind of come from and then I said you kind of the critical thinking came when you came to the West. So where did your percussion journey begin? I began in China, but you know, historically, women were not allowed to perform,

especially traditional performing art. And it's always father-past to sound. But I was the only child, and then my dad always wanted me to do music. So that's why I, began to play instrument. I started it with violin. It didn't work out.

It's too difficult for me. And I was really interested in percussion because there are two women drummer and percussionists really influenced me. The one is in my dad's brass band. There's one young, really powerful lady played drum kit while singing. And I saw her performance when I was five.

That's the beginning of everything. I started to play. stores, plus a pillow or table or pots and pan, my mum's kitchen. And then the second important lady in my life is Evelyn Glennie, and who actually really inspired me to carry on to go and more professional learning, percussion. And she's the reason I came to the UK. And then the third important lady is sitting right next to you.

Right next to me. She means Hannah, not me. I'm really lucky to meet you today. Who knows what's going to happen? So no, but that, I mean, that story just puts it into context, doesn't it? That it's passed down through the male lineage. So you, and, you know, all the next generation that you're influencing, and just what an outlier you are.

And that takes a lot. You know, it takes a lot of dedication. I think we should get you to maybe tell us about the tongue twisters first before you go over there. So that's the tongue twist that I learned when I was five. It's a traditional art format. So always recite by men and tell the joke. It sits in between storytelling and percussion and the theater.

So it's a percussive storytelling. And then actually the words really doesn't mean anything. It's more music, percussion and the rhythm. And it's about a mute carry a trumpet. And a monk has a fish. So fish is a llama And the monkey is a llama And the mute is a yaba

And the trumpet is a laba They all sounds similar So for some reason The mute wants a fish So and the llamaama does want to give the fish And then the mute hit the llama With the trumpet And then had a chaos fight

And then the mute started to play trumpet At the very end Didi da da di di da Tid da Tui laba Beautiful I'm going to get you to go And demonstrate some of the bits and pieces that we're going to hear you perform. So Hannah, can you explain what baby is going to, just a couple of bits?

She's probably going to pick up the bamboo clappers, which are these two beautiful kind of mixture of wood together tied by red string, and then she has them both in each hand. And then she does that at the same time as doing this kind of rap, comedy rap. And when she first started doing that in the studio, she was doing it as a bit of fun late one night, And we thought she was doing this kind of protest, you know, really powerful piece. And we were like, keep going.

She was like, no, this is silly. This is from my childhood. So, yeah, so this is what you're going to do now. I have a two-tontrister. First one is grip and skin and spit the skin and eat the grip. Brilliant. Love it. You're going to perform life for us, both of you, something from the album.

Yeah. Hannah, can I get you to go over and. take your positions and you are performing from the album, Feed the Fireflies. Okay, so Hannah is stepping up to her synthesizer laptop and we've got Baby at all her percussion instruments and this is Feed the Fireflies. Bravo, bravo.

That was absolutely brilliant. I'm so into it. Hannah, you have just carved such a unique and a career for yourself. You're so impressive. I'm just going to ask you the same question. Were you musical as well from a young age? Yeah, I guess, yeah. We moved from Northern Ireland when I was quite young to Yorkshire, hence the accent.

And one of the ways that I kind of dealt with that was by playing music, joining brass bands, playing the fiddle with my dad. There was always music in the family. and especially my granddad was a pianist and conductor in Northern Ireland as well. I mean, and when you look at the sort of the spaces that you find yourself in and how you've carved this career and the variety of work you get, like how have you managed to do that? I just keep going.

I think I had a conversation with Weller about this because we talked about the kind of the perils of the music industry and how things can wear you down and make you analyze and maybe some people like to, would prefer to step away from it. I've certainly had moments where I've gone, is this right for me? But we both agreed that it was about persistence and good quality persistence,

making sure whatever you do is the best you can possibly do it with the best people. Obviously, I want to know when you've had your doubts. Yeah, I think, you know, there are certain people in the industry that can drain your energy and can take you as when you're, quite open. I'm very open. I like to collaborate and some people can use that. And I think that's an important thing to be aware of and I've certainly learned that over the, you know, I guess,

especially the last 10 years I've learned who to stay away from and who to welcome into my life. Bebe, Bebe Wang being one of them. Yes. Absolutely. A very powerful, it feels like a really powerful collaboration. And that was such a privilege to hear you both perform. So, and you are going to be touring together? Yeah, we are. We're doing three dates in October, in Glasgow, Gateshead and in the Barbecue in London. And lots of improvisation, baby. Yes, lots of inspiration. I'm an improviser anyway. Yeah, she's opened my eyes and ears to how to improvise. I'm stuck behind a computer a lot of the time. And yeah, this is a joy. Yes, well, that was a joy for me. I want to thank you both. for joining me, Hannah Peel, Bebeowang,

and The Endless Dance is out today. Put it on your speakers, turn the volume up. It's perfect for this sunny weekend. Thanks to all of you on weekend Woman's Hour. Do join me tomorrow from around 4 o'clock. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it is Danny Robbins here for years now on Uncanny.

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