Woman's Hour - Newborns & communication, Kirsty Coventry, Women in Construction

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

Long before they can speak, babies are brilliant communicators and all that those who care for them have to do is to listen to them, to be curious about them and to be ready to discover who they are, and everything else will fall into place. That's what child psychotherapist and mother of four Marie Derome has written about in her book for new parents - What Your Baby Wants You To Know. She joins Nuala McGovern.Kirsty Coventry has been elected as the first female and African president of the International Olympic Committee. She beat six male candidates including Britain’s Sebastian Coe. The 41-year-old former swimmer will replace Thomas Bach on the 23 June and will be the youngest president in the organisation's 130-year history. The BBC's Sport Editor Dan Roan tells us more.We’re hearing more misogynistic lyrics in music, and some of it is from female artists themselves. Is this a good way to reclaim the language or is it women being derogatory about themselves? India McTaggart, entertainment correspondent at The Telegraph, discusses.Santosh, which was the UK’s official entry into the Oscar’s International Feature Film category for 2025, is set to be released in UK cinemas on 21 March. The Hindi language film follows the title character who, through a government scheme, takes on her deceased husband’s role as a police officer in North India and is quickly embroiled in the murder investigation of a young girl. The film was written and directed by documentarian Sandhya Suri in her narrative feature film debut and she received a Bafta nomination for her efforts. Sandhya is in the Woman's Hour studio to discuss the film.Work has started on a home extension and renovation that is being built and designed entirely by women. In an industry facing huge labour shortages, women remain a minority in construction, only making up 15% of the industry, and only 1% of those in manual, skilled roles. We hear from the project's lead, Kat Parsons and builder, Yas Poole.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey Editor: Karen Dalziel

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, coming up, we'll discuss the election of the first female head of the IOC, the International Olympic Committee. Also today, maybe you're listening right now at home with your little baby. We are going to tell you how to decipher what he or she is trying to tell you, perhaps even through the movement of their little legs that are maybe moving furiously.

Also today, we have the British Indian filmmaker, Sandeep Suri, with her debut feature, Santosh. It is a gripping police drama. We'll talk about all the themes that she explores in that film. And then from film to music, why are there more misogynistic And then from film to music, why are there more misogynistic language being used at the moment in pop music by women? Also lots to talk about there. Now we also want to meet the women who set out to build their house using only trades women. Yep that's right. So if you are a tradeswoman this morning I want to hear

from you. Maybe you're at home with your baby. Builders, plumbers, chippies, electricians, roofers, apparently quite hard to find. Is that true? Let me know. All other trades that are required to build a house, what is it like working in this male dominated industry? How did you or do you navigate it? To get in touch with the programme, the number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number to use is 03700 100444. But let us begin with Kirsty Coventry.

She has been elected the first female, the first African president of the International Olympic Committee. She beat six male candidates, including Britain's Sebastian Koh. The 41-year-old former swimmer will replace Thomas Bach on the 23rd of June and will be the youngest president in the organisation's 130-year history. This is an extraordinary moment. As a nine-year-old girl, I never thought that I would be standing up here one day, getting to give back to this incredible movement of ours. It's like winning my first Olympic medal in 2004.

It's a little bit surreal. You've gone six months working really hard, speaking to all the members. I'm just truly grateful to them to for them to have put so much confidence and trust into me and I'm looking forward to working with them to move the Olympic movement forward. Well here to tell us a little bit more about her is Dan Roane from BBC Sport who's in Greece at the moment at an airport I believe Dan. Thank you for taking a few minutes out for us. Was she a surprise appointment?

I don't think she was a surprise, Nula, no, because Coventry was always regarded by IOC insiders as one of three front runners for this presidential election alongside the likes of Britain's Lord Seb Coe, as you said, and also Juan Antonio Samaranch Jr., a Spanish businessman. But I think the scale of the victory did take people by surprise. There were multiple rounds of voting expected because it was meant to be a really close contest this. But in actual fact, it was an overwhelming victory. She secured the overall majority that candidates, and there were seven of them, needed to win outright in the first round. She secured 49 votes out of a possible 97. And that meant it was all done in five minutes. So this long campaign, months worth of lobbying and behind the scenes persuasion of

members, and it's all down to this eclectic mix of royalty and figures from business and politics and ex athletes, they're the IOC membership who decided it's an interesting, curious process, very secretive. It's been compared to a papal conclave at times, but it all came down to just a few minutes. And then the outgoing president, Thomas Bach, declared that she was the winner. And the white smoke arrived, so to speak. But, you know, she's such an interesting person to take a look at her history. She was a swimmer, as I mentioned, multiple wins called Golden Girl by

Zimbabwe's former president Robert Mugabe. In fact, after her 2008 Olympic wins, Miss Coventry faced criticism for accepting about £55,000 in prize money on state television in Zimbabwe when Zimbabweans were suffering hunger as a result of hyperinflation. There's also the controversy in 2018. She became sports minister in the cabinet of the following president, that's Emerson Menon-Gagway who's still in power. He's had a tumultuous presidency I think it's fair to say. Did any of those issues come up? Not really no and this I think points to the process because none of the candidates are allowed to criticize

their rivals. There's no real public debate. She had a very low profile campaign Coventry, did very few interviews. I did speak to her maybe a month ago, and I did ask about those political associations, which I think will inevitably raise questions from many about whether she is a suitable leader of the IOC, which effectively makes her the most powerful sports administrator in the world. But I think when it comes to the IOC, I mean, this is clearly no problem for its membership, given the votes. She's maintained that, you know, it's better to be on the inside trying to bring about change than on the outside. Obviously, the money that was awarded to her by Mugabe, she was in a very difficult position given the politics of the time. She's always tried to avoid politics, but in 2018, as you say, she fully got involved as sports minister to the current regime, a very controversial one.

I think that will lead to more questions going forward. I think what's crucial to bear in mind as well though, Nula, is that she had, according to many, the support of the outgoing president, Thomas Bach. There were suggestions that he'd been privately lobbying on her behalf. Although this is a very progressive success in many ways, as you've said, first woman, first African, youngest ever IOC president.

And she spoke to that in her speech afterwards. And I think it will be a powerful symbol of progress, given that the Paris games last year were the first to have gender parity. In some other ways, it's very much a continuity appointment. She's very much an IOC insider, an executive board member, clearly the preferred candidate of Thomas Bach, although he denied actually actively, directly trying to help her. But I think that definitely was in her favour and other candidates struggled to compete with that. And of course, one of the many contentious issues that there are

when it comes to the Olympics is that of transgender athletes in sport. Has she outlined her position on that? She has and she said that before the election she said that if she gained power she would introduce a blanket ban on transgender women athletes competing in Olympic female sport and that will be welcomed by many female athletes of course. However it has been pointed out that she was very senior at the IOC as I say an executive board member, one of those that

approved two fighters taking part in the women's boxing competition in Paris last year who had reportedly failed gender eligibility tests at the World Championships the year before. That became a huge controversy in Paris, as you'll remember. It really engulfed the women's boxing competition and became a crisis for the IOC. And some critics have pointed out that she was part of the problem. They've accused the IOC of failing to protect women's sport, not protecting

the fairness and safety of women athletes, but she has since then said that she understands that it could have been handled better, that lessons to be learned and that these changes need to be brought in. But I guess on that score people will wait to see what changes do actually come into pass. There are so many really. I think I was looking at a list of 10 contentious issues that she probably has to face in the coming months. It of course being a global organization and her now having this powerful role. I could line real off a few of them whether it's about Russian athletes competing, remaining relevant the IOC during this time of great political uncertainty.

But I did see her quoted saying that, this is her words, I have been dealing with, let's say, difficult men in high position since I was 20 years old. Yes, and I'm sure that was a reference to Mugabe, as you detailed, and also the man that she's a part of, the government of Emerson Mnangagwa, known as the Crocodile for his ruth of the government of Emerson M. Nangagwa known as the crocodile for his ruthlessness it has to be said and this is a this is a government that's been accused of human rights abuses and corruption the subject of US sanctions of course and I think there'll be some who would have expected

her to step away from that government she's chosen not to do so and so I think that was what it was a reference to but I think it's also a reference to the fact that you'll need to deal with Donald Trump, the US president, of course, because the next Summer Games is in Los Angeles in 2028. He's one of those who stands accused of weaponizing sport. He's already said, for example, that he will deny visas to any transgender women athletes who intend to compete in female competition at those games. And obviously, some of his policies, whether it's around immigration, or whether it's in relation to, for example,

Canada or Mexico or Europe or Russia, could well lead to serious tensions. I mean, there are, I did hear it said here in Costa Navarro, where the IOC election took place, some were saying, you know, could there be boycotts of the LA games because of his policies in the next few years? There's no doubt that she will need to build a relationship with him. That will not be easy. As you mentioned, Russia as well, she may have to deal with their reintegration depending on how peace negotiations go. They've been banned since 2022 because of the invasion of Ukraine. These are just some of a myriad of issues, sustainability and climate change, doping. There's so many issues that she'll have to contend with. It's a really pivotal moment for the IOC and the Olympic movement.

So lots of pressure on her going forward. It'll be the Milan-Cortina Winter Games in February 2026 where she first takes her position. I know you've got to go and catch a plane. Dan, I hope you haven't been affected by the turmoil in Heathrow today. No, luckily travelling back to Manchester but I can tell you that there's, I can see many Scotland fans, they played Greece last night here in Athens who appears sadly to be delayed for now but yes, looks like the Manchester flight's okay, we'll have to see. But yeah, the whole of the Olympic movement sort of descended here on Greece for this huge vote and it's a new era for the Olympic movement and for the IOC.

It's a real landmark moment and many will hope that Kirsty Coventry is the leader that the IOC needs to address lots of these challenges over the next few years. Dan Roan, thank you so much speaking to us from the airport as he makes his way back to Manchester. Some of you already getting in touch, I was asking about whether you are a trades person because we're going to be speaking about that a little bit later in the program if you want to get in touch whatever your trade is 84844 and we'll be reading some of your messages out a little bit later. Here's Helen, she says, I'm a digger driver in a quarry, been doing this job for eight years, very male dominated, never seen another woman digger driver in this time.

Have to be 100% better than the worst male driver as I'm under the spotlight all the time. I've experienced so much hassle and even bullying from some men in the industry. It won't stop me though as I love it and I'm good she says. Keep them coming 84844 or email us through the Women's Era website. Now to babies. Long before they can speak babies are brilliant communicators. My next guest says if those who care for them watch them closely, listen and be very curious, you will discover who they are and everything else will fall into place with your baby. Marie de Romb is a child and adolescent psychotherapist,

mother of four children, and has written about all of this in her new parenting book. What your baby wants you to know. So she draws on neuroscience, her own clinical experience with parents and babies and describing what happens when bonding goes well, but also how to manage ambivalent feelings, perhaps you're feeling overwhelmed or exhausted. Marie, welcome. Thank you very much. Very nice to be here. So good to have you in studio with us this morning. Okay, so the big question, what do

babies want us to know? Well, I think they want us to know that they need us 100 percent because without us, they won't survive. And to survive in the best way, what they want is to make a relationship with us. And so that's, they've got, you know, thousands of little tools to make that relationship. You know, I mentioned legs at the beginning because I found this very cute. We're all used to babies legs kind of going backwards and forwards and moving furiously and their little arms as well. But you say that is part of their communication strategy. Yes, they master a nonverbal communication.

And there's been a lot of research. You know, babies have been filmed for the last few decades a lot and 75% of their movement are intentional, synchronized, they're not jerky, you know to the naked eye they appear very jerky, but they're not. They're there to bring us in, the parents, you know, they need us. So they, all those movements are there to say, look, come, look at me. I need you. I want to, you know, to play with you. So they're reaching out with their little legs if they make those movements? Yeah, and their facial expression, you know, baby's newborns' baby can smile. Often, you know, we all think, oh, it's just wind.

We've always heard it's wind, that it's not really a smile and that they can't smile until an older age. Yeah, but they can. Yes, it's not the big, big smile, but their mouth, their little nose, their eyes, all these moves in movements that are very precise to get a reaction to us. And this is very important to know, and that's why I've written this book, because I think if parents can realise that when their baby smiles, it's meaningful smiles, it's smiles to bring them in, to say, look, mommy, daddy, whoever is looking after the baby I love you I need you I want to get to know you I want you to help me make sense of the world then we're going to react to the smile in a very different way than if we think oh it's just a fart smile. Because I mean if we

think about babies you'll often hear people say oh I, I'm not crazy about babies, I find them kind of boring, they don't really do anything until they're older. I know, and that's the big misconception, you know, you know, we are a society that's very driven by intellect, by our cognitive capacity, and when we are with baby, we have to put that aside. And actually the brain of parents, you know, changes a lot during the pregnancy. And that's not just for the mother, it's for the co-parent as well. And all the part in our brains that deal with emotion, capacity to read body language grows quite dramatically.

And so- For us to read everybody's or just the baby's? Well, I guess you could apply hopefully that to the others, to other relationships, but it's very undervalued. We think, oh, you just need to look after the body of this baby. You know, it's very mechanical, the physical needs, you know, it's changing nappy, it's feeding. And you do often hear that, like when they're little, they have little problems that you just have to keep them fed, water changed. But I did see that you say parents need to lend their minds to their babies. What do you mean?

Well, the extraordinary thing that happens with babies, you know, for nine months they are in a tummy, very, very safe. And then they come out and that's when life begins and the realisation that life's not going to be perfect anymore. They were very cosy in this kind of very five-star hotel in Althamie where they could get everything. They didn't even need to wish to be fed or to put for this to happen. Now they are in the world and to, so they go from our tummy into our mind. Our mind becomes the safe place where we're going to keep this baby alive because that's the big thing, you know, babies without us would die, you know, and that's the massive realization and an anxiety

provoking thing when you become a parent. But when you say lend their minds to the babies, do you mean that the parent has to give over all their mind to the babies and only think about the baby? Well, at the beginning it's quite good to do that, but not in the long term. And that's when I talk about, yes, at the beginning, they're so fragile, they want to be fed now, as soon as they've got the first little pang of hungriness in their tummy. But gradually, if our relationship, if the way we interact with them is consistent, gradually they'll be able to wait a little bit.

You want people to understand that it's okay for babies to wait when they're a little bit older. Yes, and I think that's very important. You know, no one's, even babies, want to have everything when they want it. You know, imagine if you could get everything just like that. Life would be so boring and I think eventually you'd go mad. But you're also, I suppose, trying to help the parent not feel guilty about making the baby wait for something. But how do you understand whether it's distressed or just a little bit impatient? Well that's the thing if you've been very curious about your baby from day one then you

you know you'll know you have to trust your your your intuition you you'll have learn all the different different sounds different movement and also you can talk to your baby say look I can see you know you're really hungry and yes, I'm taking a bit too long to get that bottle made, but I'm there. So, you know, your voice become that soothing thing, that's reassuring thing. So I'm not saying let's make them wait next door without any communication, you know, just explain what's going on. Why it's taking longer or why you can't attend to their needs immediately. You know, some might say that what you're saying, be curious, be present, lend your mind, etc.

is something else that parents are being asked to do or feel guilty about. Many of them already very busy, maybe other children going out to work, whatever it might be, other responsibilities. What would you say to work, whatever it might be, other responsibilities. What would you say to that? Number one. And also how much time are you talking about needs to be spent observing the little baby? But what I'm not, you know, my book is not about changing anything you do kind of practically in your life is just when you change your, the nappy of your baby, when you give them a bath, that's when those interactions,

if you do them, you know, with the idea, I want to make a relationship with this baby, I want to know that baby, then you know, you don't have to do anything extra. It's more, you know, your experience as parents will be much more meaningful, much more enjoyable and you realise that you don't need to do, you know, incredible stuff that it's in the mundane, in the very ordinary things that those interactions and those nourishment happen. Which sometimes some people just want to get through, right? Get through feeling the baby or get through bathing the baby. You're saying to take a minute and slow down and look at them.

You know, I want to turn to another part of your book, which I found very interesting, and that's about maternal ambivalence. Can be taboo. But I like this line that you have, you said, The truth is that if any adult did a tenth of what our babies do to us, we would call them abusive gaslighting control freaks and our friends would beg us to leave them. What is your advice to people who are struggling, perhaps, because all your, a lot of the advice that you give, it's about making that deeper bond with the baby and understanding it more.

And there are those that are having a hard time perhaps bonding or perhaps loving this new life that they've been thrust into. Yes. And parenting is really hard. Falling in love with this little baby is not this idea that love at first sight. I think it's such a unhelpful cliche. It will take time to love that baby, to get to know that baby, you know, like any other relationship. We need to think of our relationship with our babies like with our friends, with our

lovers, partners, you know, we need to get to know them. And of course, they are, you in the in the process of having a baby lots of things can happen that can make that difficult like you know a traumatic burst there's a big chapter on that and really interesting and and you know I explain you know when you're given this baby newborn baby you're also given a pair of glasses with lenses and some of those lenses for some of us can be very very fuzzy depending on what's happened when we were little you know events in our life and the birth. If the birth is traumatic it's gonna make it much harder to to hear and to see our

baby's communication for what they are. So you know like a cry if you've you've had lots of trauma when your baby and you like with the birth for instance if you feel you've fell the burst like a lot of mother do you feel that then you're when your baby cries you might hear the baby being critical saying we will mommy you, look, you couldn't even. Everything you bring to it. When actually the baby is just saying, mommy, I need you, I love you, that's all I want is you.

So it's like a reframing. And yes, and you go into detail of traumatic birth, which we do talk about on this program quite regularly, also breastfeeding and the bonding or the feelings that that that can engender a good and bad. I was interested. You're looking for a lot of honesty, I think, from people as well. For example, saying, write letters to yourself, things you miss about your old life and things you love about your new life. Did you do that? I wish I had, you know, I think I wrote that book because I feel that's the book that would have

really helped me, especially with my first baby. Because yeah, I missed my old life at the beginning. It was really, really hard. You were a correspondent, a front correspondent. Yeah, I was living in the Congo at the time and yes, so, you know, I was completely independent socially, financially and you know, as independent as I would, will ever be and then suddenly I, you know, 10 months later, you know, I was stuck at home with the baby and that, yeah, it was hard. And I wish I'd understood that actually all the little things I was doing, it was about building that relationship that this, you know, that this baby was going to become one day an adult and that it would be really nice, you know, to go home.

But not to wish away that time either, which I think some people do. They just want to get through the baby years. Yeah. Instead of to get to the other part. Yes. For some. Yes. But slowing down, you know, take your time.

It's never going to last. But yes, with my first baby, I thought I was going to breastfeed forever. Which is a whole other conversation. But you also, one thing which I liked, and I'll let you go in this, is asking people to let go when they have their baby off the ideal baby that they had imagined. Yeah, ideal baby, ideal life, ideal birth, ideal first meeting. Just get to know your baby. Your baby is incredible and wants you and that's the relationship that's going to sustain him, her and you and the rest of the family. So yeah, there is no ideal. Just life isn't perfect, parenting is messy. You will worry, you will feel guilty, but I hope you know my book will help you feel a bit less

guilty and really enjoy you know getting to know your baby. Marie-Darome, what your baby wants to know? I found it really interesting. You don't have to have a baby to find it interesting actually. On these babies that we see around them and their little legs and little arms. We might think about it differently. Thanks so much for coming in to us. Thank you very much. Let me see. Here's a developmental pediatrician got in touch, says about baby communication. This is why it's so important for us to put away our phones and other screens and be fully present to see those communication attempts or the baby gives up.

Oh, 84844. If you'd like to get in touch, lots of trades women. I've been a welder, blacksmith and steel fabricator for over 30 years, often the only woman on a construction site. The scrutiny my welding seams like like a like a seam, you know, that you'd so their scrutiny, my welding seams receive is beyond. So I've had to make sure it is excellent at all times. Now that I'm in my 50s and a bit longer in the tooth, I scrutinise their work straight back at them. Keep them coming. Oh my goodness, so many have come in. Looking forward to reading some more of those.

But before that, I want to turn to the woman opposite me. Our next guest is the British Indian director Sandhya Suri whose debut feature film Santosh has earned her a BAFTA nomination. Santosh follows the title character who through a government scheme in India, which we'll talk about in just a moment, inherits her husband's position as a police constable following his death and she then becomes embroiled in a brutal murder investigation after a young poor girl is found dead. And Sandhya, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for having me. Lovely to have you here. Right. Shall we talk about Santosh?

It's the name of the film, but it's also the protagonist. Tell us a little bit about her. About her? Yes. Well, she's she's obviously an interesting character who's going on a pretty crazy journey of being a wife, having a certain status which is associated with that, and then finding herself suddenly a widow, losing all of that status and then getting the uniform to one of the most sort of powerful and in this particular instant of this force, corrupt forces. And it's just a very interesting exploration for her to see how she writes herself anew in this world and how she experiences power and powerlessness.

She goes and she becomes a police constable, but this is an actual scheme that does take place in India. It is. A compassionate appointment. Explain it a little bit further. Exactly. I mean I actually didn't even know this. When I started researching about female cops in India, I found that like a considerable quota were coming through at the constable level on the appointment on compassionate grounds. And it's a great scheme because it's not just for the police, it's for all government service. And it's not just for a wife, it can be for a child as well, any dependent can apply for that.

So if somebody dies in service. Exactly. Then you can inherit their job. With training, with training. I don't do a Rocky montage in the film, but she does mention that she goes through training. So you have to apply. And it's a great scheme because it's about keeping, you know, allowing people to stay financially independent or giving them that chance. So you have to fall within a certain income bracket, not everybody

can get it. But it really is about helping people stay financially independent. It's such an interesting concept for the film because she's straight into it. What gave you the catalyst for that? Well I come from documentary, I graduated film school a good time ago and so this is my first fiction feature- film but I've made feature length docs before and I was trying to make another one in India researching with various NGOs and I just found that sometimes showing violence or holding the camera up to what I was seeing was very frontal and very brutal and I didn't want to just depict the violence. I somehow

wanted to dissect it, explore it, get inside of it with my character. So at that stage I just, I just, I shelved that project and thought that I wasn't ready to do it. I couldn't find the way in. And then a few years later when there was the terrible gang rape case in Delhi of the young girl in 2012, yeah, the Nirbhaya case. When that happened, there were many, many images from protests across the world. And I saw a picture taken in Delhi of a female cop and she was standing right in front of very angry crowd of women because only women police deal with women protesters. That's appropriate. And she had such an interesting expression on

her face. I just sort of knew that she was the way into talking about violence on both ends and talking about being fearful or feared, depending on what you're wearing. It's so interesting because with Santosh, she as a widow, she has no power and her husband's family doesn't want her and she's going through. How is she going to survive, really, to then becoming this powerful member of a community and being able to be feared in a way that she just wouldn't be previously. You did speak to women who took on police work in India. What did you find out? I mean I did a really really long research. That's why the film was sort of 10 years in development. Oh really? Yeah a lot of that was about getting access and being

around the police which was very difficult obviously to manage but I did. And especially hanging out with the women sometimes I sit in tiny little being around the police, which was very difficult, obviously, to manage, but I did. And especially hanging out with the women, sometimes I sit in tiny little stations in places late at night. And one woman told me, well, you know what, I was always accompanied somewhere by a male, you know, either a father or a brother or even a sister-in-law at the market. And she said, the first day I set out on my own in the streets of my city was the day that my husband died

and I had to get to the hospital. And now look at me, I'm sat here, in the station alone at night. And she said it took me, and many people said this actually, it took me like a good, the full nine months of that training to get used to wearing trousers and just not feeling naked and weird about that. And then, and then gradually, and I think you see it in the film as well, there's through watching and seeing how everyone else walks

and talks and all those, that body language changes and they assume a different persona. And those small details are so well observed when we look at the film. And she also has a mentor of this inspector Sharma. And their relationship is really a big part of the film as well. Was it difficult to decide how far to go, how, I suppose, complicated, flawed, corrupt to make the women in the film? Because many consider it a feminist film. Yeah, well, I think that that means respectfully showing all sides of a woman in all she can be. And for me, you know, I'm always I don't like to get bored while making a film either. And I think women are very layered and very complex and life is.

And as a documentary maker, that's sort of how we approach our subject matter as well. And I think it's black and white. And to just have the good women in the bad system seemed a bit silly. So for me, it was about taking a landscape where everybody is morally gray, everybody, and putting this character, taking her out of a kitchen and plopping her in there and For me it was about taking a landscape where everybody is morally grey, everybody, and putting this character, taking her out of a kitchen and plopping her in there and saying okay, well, what's your particular grey? And if you explore your power and you step over a line, is there a way back to your humanity

and your femininity? Let's intertwine them. And how do you get there? So it was all, I think, feels fair to me. And also I think that in general, not necessarily relating to Santosh, just keeping that aside, but in general the idea of female rage as a response to what happens in the world and everything that police women must see and experience and you know, bear testimony to, doesn't seem that surprising to me. You mentioned in an interview that this film shows there's a third way to be a woman in India. Can you elaborate on that?

Well, I think that's what I meant by, you know, she meets this older inspector who takes her under her wing, Inspector Sherma. And Sherma is so seasoned at playing in this world and being one of the men. She's a very strong feminist in her ideology in the film. But she knows how to work with the men and behave in their ways because they are the codes of the police. And she basically sort of puts it to Santosh that, you know, you can be like me and get ahead or you could go back to be that person, you know, we see at the beginning of the film

who's sort of stamped on and there's no space for us, just neglect. She can't even negotiate a place to live for herself. And I just really wanted generally to think about a way in which there's a third way to be a woman, which is not being a man and not being oppressed. And I like the idea that she will explore that in the film and come to her own conclusions and return to herself in a way. You grew up in England, living in India for a short time, but you obviously have a career highlighting some stories like this.

And, you know, you must be delighted with the reviews that the film has got as well. But I was thinking your film shows through Santosh's eyes, India as a brutal, really unforgiving, corrupt environment that Santosh is in. Were you ever apprehensive about showing India in that negative light? I mean, I think every film that I've done is very, very different. You know, my documentary, I for India, is super bittersweet and nostalgic and all about the love for motherland that the diaspora has. My short, The Field, which was also BAFTA nominated, is very sensual and poetic

and beautiful. And this is a very different beast. So for me it's it's not about you know India is so many things and even in my work it's so many things. So it was more taking on a genre of a neo-noir and being uncompromising in that because clearly all these things exist. It's just it's very intense because they're all in one film. It is very intense but very gripping as well and I think surprising. It does bring us on a lot of twists and turns as well. It's a slow burn pressure cooker of a film.

Yeah, slow burn but still very compelling and you know you're not gonna look away, put it that way, as well. Thank you so much Sandy Suri for coming in. Santosh I should let people know is in UK theatres from today. Thank you so much for coming in. If you want to get in touch like many of you are already, it is 84844. Trades, women in particular I'm looking for. Some of my guests a little bit later are looking for roofers to be specific. But before all that, I want to turn to a little bit of pop music. New research has found that female pop stars are using more misogynistic

language in their songs than they did two decades ago. Also, I want to let you know in time that I will mention one of the offensive words in just a moment in case you need to turn the radio down. India McTigurd is the entertainment correspondent at The Telegraph. She's been looking into this for us, also with us in the studio. So tell us a little bit more about the study looked at and welcome. Thank you for having me. So this study is by an audio visual firms called Startle and they analyzed 600 of the UK's top 100 chart songs from 1974 to 2024 to analyze the trend of

derogatory lyrics against women basically over the last 50 years. And it was quite interesting because as you mentioned, there are certain terms that crop up sort of, I would say, post millennium. They analyze, for example, freak was one of the terms that maybe came up in the 1980s. But then post millennium, most of the other derogatory terms actually became much more popular, which was very interesting because it also coincides with female artists being more celebrated than they ever have. with female artists being more celebrated than they ever have. So we've got more female artists in the top charts than ever before, very visibly being celebrated, but then of course we've got this rise in derogatory lyrics. And I think it is necessary to let our listeners know one of the words for example that we're talking about and it features heavily in a number of the hits that we'll discuss, that is bitch. For example, how do you understand its rise in use? Yes, so this was really fascinating because this particular term that you just mentioned has doubled from 2004 to 2024, went from 18 mentions in 2004 to 38 in 2024.

And that is just quite interesting. So we analyzed it because of the rise in female artists. I mean, you've got so many more visible, public-facing female artists winning the Grammys. We've got them dominating, sweeping these awards ceremonies. We've got Taylor Swift, Beyonce being among the most celebrated in the world. So we looked at it and I think in one sense, this hypersectionalization of lyrics and music has always sold. It's a tried and tested method for the industry. They know that it works. It's historically always worked. So it sells records. So I think that's one for the industry. They know that it works. It's historically always worked. So it sells records.

So I think that's one of the elements. Then I think behind the scenes, we have got more men running the industry. I mean, that's just the case. It's factual. The 2019 study conducted by Vic Bain found that less than 20% of artists were still females. So that is in the UK in top record labels.

So it's really low numbers and then behind the scenes we've got you know record label executives, producers, songwriters, predominantly all being male and I think that does contribute to the fact that the female experience then really isn't translated or talked about in songs because we've got the male gaze, so it's sort of like a sonic patriarchy in a way. So they would have the final say on what is marketed or not or marketable or not. Precisely. However, we would imagine people like Taylor Swift and Beyoncé would be calling the shots. And it is their song specifically that it is in, for example, in hits.

Right, yes. We do see the terms in their songs. I will just say that I think, again, behind the scenes, the songwriters, even for these most celebrated and popular female artists, are a lot of the time male. So, yes, it is their music, but they do have that sort of sign-off and that process is still very male dominated. What about, which some people bring up when this is discussed, could it be a repurposing of the language? Could it be reclaiming those words, as we've seen with other offensive terms at times? Absolutely. So that was one of the reasons that we studied for this story in The Telegraph. And it was sort of suggested that female artists are actually, as you said, reclaiming, repurposing this language.

So actually using it in an empowering sense, reclaiming the term, the one that you mentioned specifically was used in Taylor Swift's song last year and in a Beyonce song. And I think both of those examples in Texas Holden for Beyonce and I Can Do It With a Broken Heart for Taylor Swift, both make sense for reclaiming the term because in one of them it's Taylor Swift sort of being very broken hearted saying I can't go on, but actually I need to put on a brave face and perform and act like it's totally normal. So she's sort of, it's like an empowering, like pushing herself forward to refer to herself in that term. And then in Beyonce's song, it's actually sort of referring to a guy who's being a wuss and maybe not asking her to dance.

So it's a repurposing of that language to maybe then challenge the status quo that is previously been used for and used in male music a lot. And I'm just mentioning one word there. There are more explicit words as well that the study looked at. You mentioned some of the figures there when it comes to people calling the shots. We have heard on this programme as well previously about how difficult it can be for a woman in the music industry to have that autonomy that she might want. There is actually the subject of a select committee in parliament about misogyny in the music business. Do you feel actions like that can actually implement change in this wide-ranging diverse world of the music industry?

So I think first and foremost we've just got to platform more female songwriters that can talk about the female experience, that can talk about menopause, childbirth, sexual assault, all these kind of things in greater sort of detail and I think that feminism can make the cut for selling music. I don't think it's an issue in terms of, we've had famous artists actually start to tackle these issues. British songwriter, Rae, is actually one of them. Who is independent. Who is independent. And it was when she became independent that she was able to release these songs detailing actually misogyny within the industry and all of that. And they broke records.

She just performed at the Oscars. So we are seeing commercial success for female artists that are singing about these things. But I think first and foremost, it's so important to get the female songwriters in the room, because I think that will start to change it. And it is an issue, even though some female artists are reclaiming the word, I think it does still sort of become this pervasive issue if you keep reusing it in the other way, because they're, of course, female artists that use it in the other way because there are of course female artists that use it in a derogatory sense too because again that's what sells, hypersexualisation. There still is sexism in music. India Beck-Taggart, entertainment correspondent at The Telegraph. Thank you very much for

coming to us and Womans Hour coming into the studio this morning, one of the stories that we are looking at. Another was about babies. Women's are I'm in tears thinking back to the early months of my third child. I thought his crying was a criticism and I took it personally. I wish someone had just said he's crying because he loves you. What a pearl of wisdom. 84844, if you would like to get in touch. No flood of trades women getting in touch. Let awful lot of tradeswomen getting in touch.

Let me see. I'm a female who owns a construction company, but I do not have any female tradespeople working for me. But I am a general contractor myself. Whoever messaged that, I want to know why. Is that you don't find them? They didn't come to you? There's a shortage. Let me know. 84844 if you would like to get in touch.

Why am I talking about that? It is because last month work started on a special construction project in Suffolk. Cat and Fee Parsons are having the extension and renovation of their home constructed entirely by women. So women make up only 15% of the construction workforce today and only 1% of those in manual skilled roles so finding tradespeople to work on the build has been the challenge. And the project however has attracted people from all over the country. One builder I believe drives in from South Wales, another with us today from Brighton, scaffolders from Sheffield joining for the next phase of the project. I'm joined by Kat Parsons, good to have you with us today from Brighton, scaffolders from Sheffield joining for the next phase of the project. I'm joined by Kat Parsons, good to have you with us Kat, who

started the project on our home and also one of the builders that I mentioned Jaspool. Welcome to you both. Thank you very much. Now let us start Kat. What was the impetus to create this all-female build team? So there was a number of reasons I think the main thing is Fee and I are very passionate about gender equality and gender balance. We're both construction background. We've had a bit of a mixed bag of response in terms of how we are received on site from very positive to the eye rolling of, oh no, they've sent a female.

And what did you do? What's your trade? What do you do? So background is environmental consultancy, so contaminated land, so think building sites, you know, digging holes, mud in jars, that sort of thing. So very, very male dominated. So there was that sort of element of it. And then really the main thing was this opportunity came up, we bought this absolute shack of a house. And we thought to ourselves, you know, in 2023, when this sort of concept came up, we'd planned it, we thought, you actually can you do this with an all-female team? You know we have a huge network from our own background so we thought you know it'd be quite easy from the design element we could pull on the people, the women we already knew but

actually could we push that one step further and really use this as a showcase to really find women from all areas of construction and built environment all the way down from architecture all the way down to actually laying the bricks on site. You're a man thing, you're still smiling. I am! built environment all the way down from architecture all the way down to actually laying the bricks on site. You're a month in, you're still smiling. I am. Yaz, welcome.

Hi. You wanted to join the team that Cass was putting together. I did and they contacted myself and Emily who are the main contractors and basically said we want to do this amazing thing with all females and it's very rarely do you get any females on site but having everybody on site being female is just amazing. What's it like? What's the difference? The difference is women problem solve a little bit different to men and it's just a little bit more relaxed, it's a lot tidier and I think it's just so nice.

Yeah it's nice. Well, let's talk about the problem solving for a moment then. Okay. What is the difference there in the process? I would say we would have a little bit more patience and look at it's just looking at things a little bit differently as well. And so yeah, that really helps and I think we just our temp part is we don't lose our temper as much basically. There's more collaboration as well. We found that from the design phase as well. And again, even being on site this week, you know, there's always snags, there's always issues,

but it's dealt with in a very different way. It's no one sort of then like stepping forward and saying, oh, no, actually I'm completely inflexible. There's this really nice, it's absolute teamwork to the same objective. It's a very different style. And so do you, did you, either or few, I'll start with you, Kat, feel that you needed to behave in a different way if the, if you were on a build

that was male dominated? Massively. So again, when I used to work in construction, you know, you were almost like two different people, you'd go into work and I'd be swearing about the weather or the traffic or, you know, almost to create this sort of, you know, I was a safe space, I wasn't sort of one of those women that was going to be you know a pain and cause issues and then you'd go home and you'd have to shake it off you know on a Friday night I had to sort of temper my language for the kids and you know and then turn back into me again ready for Monday where again same thing

you had to sort of put this shield up. Yes, yeah it is different and I think for myself and Emily, we just try to put across that we're not trying to compete or basically want all females. We just kind of want to showcase our skill set and that we want to work alongside you guys and everything just to be teamy. Equal. Yeah, equal. That's what it is about for us. There might be some male construction workers listening who say they've also got a collaborative atmosphere on site. I want to hear from you as well then. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. I want to read a couple of the messages that have come in because I was asking for tradeswomen. There are more women in the heritage sub-sector of the construction industry. Programs

like the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings have two advanced programs which are very popular with women. My biggest challenge being female in building conservation has really been being a parent, the employer's attitudes and expensive, unavailable, flexible childcare while working. Frances, I have worked in construction since 95. I run my own decorating business. I'm 71, still on the tools, wallpapering today. Glad you have the radio on.

I have had the time of my life. Nothing beats eating your lunch on the scaffold in the sunshine with your mates. I've never suffered misogyny from the other trades I work with only from clients. More women should do it. It's an absolute joy. Yeah, no idea. It is amazing but I think some of the feedback we've had from the women that worked the project is being underestimated. So you know you arrive and it shouldn't be a surprise when you open the front door and there's a female engineer there or if you know we had sky out there that it was a female engineer turned up it shouldn't be different and we walk past the

construction site on the way in this morning and there was literally 30 men stood outside and you wouldn't bat an eye usually so why when you drive past our site in Ipswich should it be any different with an all-female team so that's what we're trying to do just positively disrupt. Has anybody walked by? Not me, we live in the middle of nowhere. But our neighbours are well invested, they absolutely love the fact that you know what are the girls up to today, like what's on the plan. So it's been really well received. There is a need, you know we hear from more construction experts whether it's builders or surveyors or

electricians, the government has plans to increase the number of homes that are built in some counties by 400 percent. The Construction Industry Training Board has estimated that over 50,000 workers are needed to fulfill that demand. So you would imagine it should be appealing to more women. What would you say they need to do to change the culture that can be somewhat unwelcoming from what I'm hearing from some of my listeners this morning? I think it's just learning the skill set. It doesn't really matter what gender you are.

It's just if you've got the skill set and you want to get involved, be confident and go for it. Like, I love my job and I love the people around me. And it's a great industry to be with and I think if it's something you want to do just go for it. It's great. Stories are coming in. I once had a client referred to me as a Rottweiler after I had delivered the residential project on time and on budget. There is no way a male project manager would have been referred to in

the same manner. Kat? Yeah no absolutely and again even our architect the other week was on a site and was asked why she didn't bring the bacon sandwiches and the tea and she's the most senior person on the project. What did she do? Absolutely nothing. She reported it afterwards and then it kicked off and was dealt with but not a single guy in this room said, well unacceptable. So there is that thing about that allyship piece. And, you know, with this is an all female project, but this is not excluding men. We have a very beautiful 15 year old son at home.

My dad is involved. Our daughter's involved as well. It's about showing them how to, you know, that allyship piece, how to step forward. And again, as you were saying, you know, we have to work at 110 percent, 200 percent to demonstrate that we are capable and competent and we shouldn't have to. It's not about competing, I keep saying that. It's like we want, they, the male, they have the most knowledge and we want to learn as much as we can off them but in a safe and comfortable environment and just be part of the team. That's what it's about. To be welcomed because they have historically been in that and we know having historical knowledge and experience can be so helpful. Here's one

from Penelope. I'm a female painter and decorator based in Glasgow but I want to highlight a challenge that isn't often talked about in the trades, working through the more physically demanding phases of the menstrual cycle. Since learning about cycle syncing I've become more aware of how my energy levels fluctuate, particularly during the luteal phase. This is when heavy labor can feel significantly more taxing, yet in a male-dominated industry there's little room to acknowledge these natural changes. It would be great if there was more awareness and flexibility in the industry to acknowledge these challenges rather than feeling like we have to push through at full capacity all the time, or even more than 100%, 110% as you say, Kat.

Yeah, exactly, and I talk about periods all the time in my day job. In terms of, so I work for British Gas, it's engineers, we've got women out on sites and it's exactly the same thing. In terms of that cycle, in terms of pain relief, sanitary products, being accessible to a toilet etc. That is really difficult on construction sites, especially very small construction sites. So it's all very well having these multi-illion pounds. You have to share the same port-au-lou.

Yeah. And so, yeah, there does need to be a little bit more awareness about that kind of thing. Yeah. And do you feel it's going there or is there a solution? I think, I think, I mean, is it just another port-au-lou or is a port-au-lou a very expensive? No, not expensive at all. On large construction sites, it's easier to do. You can have that sanitary products, you can have the bins etc.

But it's those smaller sort of projects where it's a bit like, oh you can just make do and we shouldn't have to make do. There should be provision for us to work safely on site. Have you had any experiences that you remember that are just like, oh gosh I can't believe I had to do that? Yeah, I got locked in the back of a van once temporarily because there was no welfare on site and I went for a wee in a bucket and then this panic set in when the door clicked behind me. Luckily I managed to escape though. That's not the first time that happened but that's what you have to deal with. You know it's these quick jobs where you're you know the site. And we're talking about periods and we all know how tiring that can be if you're in a certain part of it but some of the women that are getting in touch as well, going through

menopause for example I haven't experienced that yet but I can it's probably really challenging and again it's something that we need to make aware once obviously we integrate more on site anyway so it's definitely a topic we need to touch on again yeah again from that allyship point of view as well it's it's men being aware of menstrual cycles menopause you know these things we have, these extra layers of challenge that we have on a day-to-day basis. Again, once they know about those things and understand, obviously it's good for their own personal situations as well, but equally to have that sort of respect for who's working on site with them. You're still looking for roofers. I am. So I know they can get in touch with you on the website or have a look for you online, that is interesting so there's a lack when it comes to roofers. So we ground workers

we struggled with again when we found Yaz and Em it was an absolute godsend we were on the point of pulling the plug on the construction side because we could not get the team and obviously our ultimate aim is to build a family home as sustainably as possible we're very much future-proofing in terms of that green affair a future piece but it was it was really difficult so if we don't get a female roofer in our you know for Fí and I that's just part of the journey why could we not find them and things like scaffolders the fact we haven't get a scaffolder from Sheffield is difficult. Cat and Yaz thank you both so much for coming in really good to

hear your stories and I just love the stories that have come in from our listeners. It's Kat Parsons and Diaz Poole. And my last 30 seconds. Let me see. I'm a qualified wood machinist and joiner, says Barbara. I had a door stripping company. I restore period properties, including the woodwork. And I'm currently working on Henry the Eighth's hunting lodge. I'm 57, still going strong.

I've encountered lots of misogyny in my life, but lots of great men too. And they continue going. My female partner is in a job called handyman, maintenance role at a care home. And she's asked for the title to be changed. The company is refusing it may be a job title, but it matters. A man wouldn't be called a handy woman. I will see you later. Thank you very much for joining me on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. series 9 where we're covering all sorts of things from Aristotle to the legends of King Arthur to the history of coffee to the reign of Catherine of Medici of France. We are looking at the Arts and Crafts movement and the life of Sojourner Truth and how cuneiform writing systems worked in the Bronze Age. Loads of different stuff. It's a fantastic series. It's funny. We get great historians. We get great comedians. So if you want to listen to Your Dead to Me, listen first on BBC Sounds.