Woman's Hour - Nick Fletcher MP, Rebuilding my life: Martine Wright, Food writer Bee Wilson, Filmmaker Celine Song

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

Ukraine's First Lady, Olena Zelenska, has given a very personal interview to the BBC 18 months after the Russian invasion and subsequent war in her country. In it, she speaks about having to live in a different location to her husband, President Zelensky, and her fears for her children's future. The BBC's Yalda Hakim joins Nuala McGovern.A male politician is calling for a Minister for Men. Nick Fletcher, the Conservative MP for Don Valley, believes that men face such serious difficulties in today’s society that they need a specific champion. The second in our Rebuilding My Life series. When Martine Wright was rescued from the wreckage of a bombed Tube train on what became known as 7/7, her injuries were so severe that she could not be identified. Both her legs were amputated above the knee. Eighteen years on, Martine speaks to Nuala about her road to recovery, physically and emotionally.Past Lives is the directorial debut from the New York playwright turned filmmaker Celine Song. She tells the story of Nora and her childhood sweetheart, Hae Sung, who she left behind in Seoul when her family immigrated to Canada. But they reconnect years later in New York, when Nora is happily married - and grapple with what they are to each other now… and whether they missed their chance.Do you wish you cooked more but don't know where to start? Yotam Ottolenghi called Bee Wilson 'the ultimate food scholar'. She's the author of six books on food-related subjects. Now she's written her first cookbook, The Secret of Cooking: Recipes for an Easier Life in the Kitchen. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda MontefioreOpener 00:00 Olena Zelenska 01:40 Nick Fletcher 09:10 Rebuilding My Life - Martine Wright 24:29 Past Lives 37:35 Bee Wilson 45:51

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Well, the Conservative MP Nick Fletcher will be with us this hour. He's calling for a minister for men. We want to know why and also how, as he believes, such a role would be good for women. Also today, my colleague Yalda Hakim has been speaking to First Lady of Ukraine, Olena Zelenska. We'll bring you part of that interview as Mrs. Zelenska talks about the toll the war is having on her family and the effects of not having her husband by her side.

Food writer Bea Wilson, she'll also be here in studio. After a breakup of her 23-year marriage, Bea found solace and pleasure again with a chopping board and a knife. She's going to tell us how she found that joy again in what can be the most mundane and repetitive chore, that of cooking. And we want to hear your stories today of how you put the joy back into your cooking.

I know you have those stories. Share them with us. 84844 is the text number. You can email us at BBC Woman's Hour is where you find us on social media. And for WhatsApp or a voice note, the number is 03700 100 444. We're also going to continue our series on rebuilding my life. You might have caught an episode yesterday. Today, Martine Wright, she was the most injured female survivor of the 7-7 terror attacks.

And we're going to speak to her about her life after catastrophic injuries and also discuss what can we learn from her remarkable story. That's all coming up. But let me begin with Ukraine. The First Lady, Olena Zelenskaya, has given a very personal interview to the BBC. This is 18 months after the Russian invasion and the subsequent war in her country. And she speaks about having to live in a different location to her husband, President Zelensky, and also her fears for her children's future. She speaks to the BBC's Yalda

Hakim, who joins me now. Welcome back to Woman's Hour, Yalda. Thank you so much, Nuala. How was it to sit down with Mrs. Zelenska? Well, you know, Nuala, throughout this conflict for the last 18 months, Elena Zelenska has very much come to symbolise, like her husband, the strength, the resilience, the courage, and I suppose the toll that this conflict has taken on the Ukrainian people. She has become a symbol of that.

And she talks about the fact that she's not very comfortable being in the public eye, but this is something she's been thrust into. I said when you became first lady in 2019, surely you didn't think that you would become the first lady at war and really leading the women of her country, the people of her country through this bloody and brutal conflict. And she said it isn't something that she's comfortable with, that she wants to be behind the scenes, but she also understands the role that she plays, the soft power that she has. She very much understands the role that she plays, the soft power that she has. She very much understands the strength of her role. But also what became evident to me was the toll it has taken on her personally and on her family, especially her two children. And there have been, you know, talking about a husband and kids and family life. I think that's fascinating because

we so often see the headlines about the conflict that's playing out on the ground. But there have been a few comparisons drawn with Winston Churchill and her husband and seen as the man who led the country through war. And as part of your interview, you were asking Mrs Zelenska what she thought about

that and the comparisons. She gave the interview in Ukrainian, I should say. So this has been voiced by our BBC colleague. Let's listen. Well, it depends on the way you'd like to look at Winston Churchill. Of course, he's a historical figure. I did not dream about my husband becoming a historic person. Maybe it's selfish, but I need a husband, not a historical figure beside me. But on the other hand, if it's about a leader who led his country through the difficulties of war, if that kind of comparison would be accurate, I'd love it. I believe in him, and I support him. I know that he has enough strength. For any other person I know. I think it would be much harder to handle this situation.

He really is a very strong and resilient person. And this resilience is what we all need right now. Interesting, the resilience there. And as I was listening to that, I was thinking, I'm sure it's so difficult to be a first lady anyway, never mind one in war. What is their family situation now, Yalda? Because this was such a personal interview. Very much so. She really opened up in the interview, Nuala. Their family situation is what it is for millions of Ukrainians.

They were torn apart at the beginning of the war. She was told that she couldn't stay at the presidential palace, that she is the target, as are her children, and she needed to leave. For two and a half months, she couldn't see her husband. She was in hiding with the children. Since then, she has made a lot of public appearances talking about mental health, talking about the impact of the war on the family. But she was very clear that her children don't get to see their father, that, you know, that often she doesn't get to see her husband, that they remain at risk. And she said, my daughter is 19 years old, but my son is very young. He's 10 and he needs his father. He is at an age where he wants his father.

And yet it is that thing, isn't it? It's when someone is a global leader, a leader at war, but also someone who is a father. It's how does a family balance that? And staying with the personal, how long do they know each other, Mrs. Zelensky and Mr. Zelensky? So they got married in 2003 or 4, and they met each other in 1995. She played a really crucial role, actually, as a scriptwriter, writing his comedy when he was a comedian. So that's why I asked her, I said to her, how much of a role do you play now behind the scenes? Do you whisper things in his ear? Do you give him advice just like you did when you were a scriptwriter for him? And she said, no, you know, he has a very firm understanding of the geopolitics.

He doesn't need my advice. But I mean, no doubt, as the first lady, as the wife, as a companion of so many decades, I'm sure that he turns to her for counsel. And she has very much become a pillar of strength. The Ukrainian people very much respect her, admire her, think that she's carried herself with grace and poise. Throughout the interview, there was an air raid siren, which has again become a symbol of this war. She was unflinching. She just carried on. She sort of stopped, paused, made it clear that there was an air raid siren and then carried on with the interview, which gives you a sense of just how the Ukrainian people deal with this ongoing conflict. that was playing a president on television. He is now the president that is leading his country through this conflict with Russia, of course, one of the biggest powers in the world.

And she is there by his side, this first lady who has become a symbol for Ukrainian women in particular throughout this war. Really, really extraordinary. And, you know, I was looking up how old she is. She's 45, a mother of two, been with this man, you know, since 1995, sort of young sweetheart, who, as you say, she stood by him throughout this conflict, even before that, throughout his career, was, you know,

the scriptwriter behind the scenes of his comedy and behind his success. And so really, this is a story about resilience, strength, heartbreak, a family torn apart, the symbol of a president that is presiding over a country that is facing martial law. She also spoke about, you know, the fact that when he ran for president, it wasn't something she was fully across and aware of. So, you know, the human nature of this conflict comes through her and also of her relationship, the strains and pressures of her relationship. We look at him as the leader of this war.

That is her husband and the father of her children. And she has to go through all of that personal emotion that's tied to it, but also deal with a cause greater than self. And of course, replicated by, as you mentioned, so many of the women that are split up from their husbands as the husbands go to the war and women perhaps elsewhere with children. So good to speak to you, Yalda Hakeem. Thank you so much. And you'll be able to see Yalda's interview with Mrs. Zelenska. Also, there's a piece up online and on our news apps.

Let me move on now. We regularly discuss the government role of Minister for Women and Equalities and the issues that it seeks to address. But now a male politician is calling for a Minister for Men. Nick Fletcher, Conservative MP for Don Valley, believes that men face such difficulties today that they need a specific champion. So he says statistics show that 75% of people taking their lives are men,

that the life expectancy of men is 3.7 years lower than it is for women. And also 83% of rough sleepers are men. If we look at the prison population of men, that's 96%. He says whenever he raises the need for such a minister, he is sniggered at by colleagues. But he believes the need is so great that he's determined to bring about change. Nick Fletcher joins me in the studio now. Very welcome. Thank you for having me. I outlined a couple of the figures there. But tell my listeners why you really think this minister for men is necessary.

Well, if men are living a better, happier, healthier life, then it is better for women too. And it's better for society as a whole. And when I became a member of the parliament, it was one of the things that I wanted to jump on. I'm from Doncaster and I see an awful lot of young boys and young men out there with little aspiration and life's not giving them the best opportunities and they tend to be neglected by lots of people within the authority and also government as a whole.

We need to be addressing this. And the outcomes that we're seeing for these young people are in the statistics that you've just said. 96% of the prison population is men. If that was the other way around, it would be a complete outcry. And so we need to do something about it. We are failing our young boys. We are failing our young men.

We're failing society. And we're failing women and girls too. So it's interesting you bring in women and girls there as well because the statistics we're talking about there are stark but when we put the statistics facing women in terms of their position in society you'll know about the gender pay gap, the lack of female women at the top table in companies, the fact that less than a third of MPs in the House of Commons are women. But how would you respond to that? Do you feel the needs of boys and men are greater than that of girls and women? No, not at all. I've got a wife and a daughter and I want

them to have fantastic lives too, just as much as my son and myself. I mean, obviously over the last century, we've worked really hard to obviously, with equality, to put women at the table along with men, which is super important. But we can do two things at once. And I think what we tend to have done, we've pressed and pressed and pressed for women to have equality, to have equal pay, to have equal rights, which is all right.

It's everything that we should do. But I think at this moment in time, especially in the last 10, 15 years, we are neglecting our young boys and young men that are coming through. And they will have a huge effect on the country and the world over the next decade and years to come. But I think a lot of my listeners will say we're still not there with equality when it comes to women. And so many of the issues that are raised on this programme, they're not funded adequately.

You know, even if we were to talk about the women's health gap, for example, that there's so much disparity between the men and women's health care at times. I mean, where would the money actually come from for this role, this minister of men that you speak of? Well, I mean, I don't necessarily agree with that. We have got a women's health strategy. And when we have a women's and children's hospital we don't ever have a dedicated men's men's hospital we've got as you said right at the beginning the statistics are really quite we have 88 men a day that are dying of heart disease so i do think we should we should be able to we're all competent enough to have two thoughts at once we should be trying to do all we can to look after women and it's fantastic that we've got a women's health strategy it's

fantastic that we've got a cabinet member with women's inequality but we've also got a junior minister too who looks after women women's minister we need we just need to the same for men too because i'm sure most of your listeners out there have i've got a man in their life and they want their son their their father, their husband, their brother to do well, to have a healthy life and to have a fulfilling life and be a good part of society. So this isn't about feminism has gone too far? No, I don't think so. I think we just, we need to, as you say, I mean, the top table is still missing the women that obviously want to get there.

It's just not neglecting men while we're trying to make society more equal. And do you think this is about all men or is this about a subset of disadvantaged men? I think disadvantaged men definitely are more prone to this. There's no two ways about it. I mean, my son and my daughter are both doing well, and that's wonderful, yeah, but I do agree with that. I think girls, especially at school, and we've done some work on this, and girls are always the first to put their hand up in the lessons

or a lot of the time to do that. And which is great, which is fantastic. But boys tend to sit back, tend to be a bit more reserved. And unfortunately, if they've got nothing that really sparks them within school, then they can get left behind. So what do you think is at the heart of that because you've thought about these issues i mean as i say i do think but boys and girls are different there's no two ways about it and as i say i think i mean there's lots of books that i've read on this and girls are further on than boys probably all the way up into their late teens and early 20s and then boys boys do catch up so if

you've got a class full of bright girls putting their hands up you've got a few boys that are not not quite at that level are a little bit reserved they tend to mess about the tend to be sectioned off and these I've actually even heard that these boys will achieve nothing, which is the worst thing that you can say to anybody ever. We've always got to feel valued as individuals. And some of these young boys, especially if they come from dysfunctional families, no real role models at school. They literally are lost.

But no role models at school.'s interesting, let's drill down into that a little bit, surely a teacher could be a role model whether they're male or female? Yeah I think I had some fantastic teachers, there's two teachers that I remember most, one was a man and one was a woman but I also

had a great father at home so I think when dads are missing at home, I think it's really important that we have some male teachers. And in primary school, I think it's one in seven is a male teacher. In secondary school, it's one in three. And 30% of primary schools have got no male teachers at all. So if you've got a young boy at home whose father's not around and then at school there's no male teachers there at all then it's really difficult for him to find his way in life so let's put this in um some tangible steps so if

there were a minister for men for example would that be trying to get a certain quota of male teachers in a school? It would definitely be raising this issue, yeah. We need a campaign. We need the government to step up and lead a campaign on trying to recruit male teachers. We've been very successful. Maybe not very, but we've been successful in trying to encourage women into engineering. I remember my daughter coming home with a T-shirt saying,

this girl can. I think we should have the same sort of things for boys. This boy can. This boy can be a teacher. This boy can be a nurse. This boy can do this caring job. We just seem to be focusing an awful lot on what the girls can do, which is right, but we need to focus on what boys can do too.

But if we pick this apart a little bit more, and when i was looking you're right that girls are doing very well in school and also entering a university but in certain fields for example technology engineering it's still dominated by men and some of the jobs that you mentioned that you'd like to see more boys and men kind of guided into they're low low-paying jobs, you know, and the men still, as we know, whether it's in a corporate job or in many of the other fields, they're on higher pay than the women are. So there's a gender pay gap,

but also for the better-paying jobs, there's a predominance of men. And what I'm hearing is, like, you would like them to go into jobs that are traditionally lower paid. And, of course, many would say they shouldn't be lower paid but they are i don't think necessarily i mean the gender pay gap that you talk about it's illegal to pay somebody uh they're different ways for doing the same job it's illegal to do that i think the gender pay gap tends to be maybe different careers

do pay more just as just as you've said there but obviously then women will take career breaks too so but i think you can go into a lower paid environment and work your way up through management positions so i think i think everything's achievable there you've just got to want to actually push forward yeah well let's talk about the minister for men as well because i hear you've laid out how you express, for example, some male role models in some of those areas. You talk about briefly the career breaks that women take, but of course a lot of time that's to have children and childcare is a very big issue.

But would a minister for men, for example, advocate for compulsory paternity leave? Compulsory paternity? I mean, we've actually got a rule bill going through at the moment, private members bill, to try and get the two weeks so that men can take that at a different time within um within the first year so yeah I mean we need we've always got to look at um the roles of both father and and mother and we've got to look at them as both equally important and so yeah I mean if I don't think we can afford as a society

to have both parents half at the same time. But if men want to take that place, then why shouldn't men be able to do that if that's what they want to do? And if that's what fits the family, I don't think we should prescribe these things. It's what fits the family. Well, I'm just wondering what that job would be for the minister for men. For example, would it be, I don't know, to talk about male privilege, for example, or for boys and men to

understand the privilege that they have within society? Would it be that far reaching? I don't think I ever felt particularly privileged. I mean, I think I come from a working class background and to become a member of parliament was one of, obviously, an actual wonderful thing. But I've got here through an awful lot of hard work. I don't believe it's necessarily through privilege, I believe.

And I think that's what we should be doing. I think when we say words like privilege, we put barriers for people who don't believe that they've got that. I think most things

are achievable for everybody. You have to prepare to work hard. Yeah, and some would see that you did as a white man have privilege but i i take your argument that you're putting forward today do you think that boys and men are confused about how they should be and how they should behave in this world i think boys and men's role in society has not particularly changed. I think obviously the advent of women coming into the workplace, as I think women's role has stepped up massively over this last 100 years. At one time women were the homemakers and the man was the breadwinner now all now we've got a position where the woman is the homemaker and the breadwinner too so i mean

the women's role in society is hugely increased and a men's role may have actually decreased slightly because obviously um especially in a family unit women women are being in the wage too. So we're not reliant on each other as maybe we were 50 years ago, 100 years ago. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I think. But men need to come to terms with it. Women have come to terms with the fact that there's an open door for them to

have a wonderful life but there's sacrifices to be made all the way along as well. I mean there's sacrifices for men and there's sacrifices for women and I think a family unit that can work together is a wonderful thing. There is so much

though and a lot of reaction as well that is coming in in response to this. And we will be doing a full phone in on it tomorrow, actually, about whether we need a minister for men. You'll know Andrew Tate, the online influencer, self-confessed misogynist. But many young men around the world do look up to him. He says, you know, women belong in the home. they can't drive, they're a man's property. Rape victims must bear responsibility for their attacks. But his videos have been watched billions of times.

They suggest that 26% of men in the UK age between 18 and 29 who've heard of Tate agreed with his opinions on women. Would that be a priority for the Minister of Men to counter? Yes, we need to deal with that. I mean, the statistics that you've just saw, the statements that you've just read out to me are appalling and but i genuinely believe it's the lack of interest in young boys the lack of good male role models which is why young boys are searching out people like people like andrew tate and i can only imagine this coming up on

social media and on their timelines because I'd not really heard that much of him. So it's obviously not something that I'm searching for. It's not targeting more mature people who are not as easy influenced as these younger people are. So it's really, really important that we look at what our young people are watching.

Well, thank you for joining us this morning, Nick Fletcher. It's been fascinating. We have so many messages that are coming in on this and I want to tell people a little more about our phone-in tomorrow. We'll be talking about what we've been talking about here, that idea of a minister for men, whether you agree with Nick

or is it an unhelpful distraction from inequalities that exist between men and women? Do we need to address head-on the issues young men seem to be grappling with, such as masculinity or pornography? With the men's minister, is that a good way of doing that?

Or the rise of influencers, as we've just been speaking about, as Andrew Tate? Lots to discuss. You can have your say tomorrow. You can call us, tweet us, email us at womanshour at BBC Womans Hour

84844 is our text number. Nick, thanks so much. Thank you. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, let us turn next on Woman's Hour to rebuilding my life. This is the second episode in our series. The idea being to delve into the aftermath of a traumatic event to find out how the person began to recover and move on. Yesterday, we heard from Claire Russell, who spoke about finding a purpose after her partner took his own life. Today I'm joined by Martine Wright who lost both her legs in the 7-7 bombings of 2005.

She was travelling on a busy circle line tube when the device was detonated and became the most injured female survivor on a day that claimed 52 lives in London. Her injuries were so severe that she could not be identified at first. She was also in a coma. And when Martine

came round, she learned her legs had been amputated above the knee and that there were many more months of gruelling rehab ahead of her. She went on to represent Great Britain at the Paralympics, is now an ambassador for charities and hospital trusts. Martine, welcome to Woman's Hour. Morning, how are you? I am fine. You've had the most remarkable life and something that surprised me when I was reading about you, that you said, since quite early on actually, that you would not have changed what happened to've always said that uh 18 years on obviously this in my life now and who i am is is all very normal but yes i've i've felt like that over over

quite a few of those 18 years and i think it's i suppose it's a personal thing it's it's how you look at something but I truly believe that they always meant to make that journey I suppose it was a bit of a sliding doors moment for me and I believe that I was meant to get on that tube I believe that I was meant to be one of the very, very lucky people and be saved by Liz Kenworthy. And because, you know, as you mentioned already, I become a Paralympian. And if anyone remembers that day, they might remember the day before. And that was the day that we all found out that London had won the Olympic and Paralympic bid. And, you know, the last thing I remember on the tube before the explosion happened was I've got to get tickets. I've got to get tickets. I didn't get a ticket. I took part seven years later, which is now my lucky number that I wear on my shirt.

So, yeah. You wear that number on your shirt. Yes, people do think I'm slightly mad sometimes, but I wear that number on my shirt for many reasons. One is that day, yeah, people could see it as it was an unlucky day for me. I have some friends that say sometimes, actually, there was part of it that was quite lucky for you and who you've become and and you know the people that you've met and the you know what I do and and help other people

um get through trauma and and things like that so yeah I suppose it was a belief that they were supposed to happen to me and it was a belief that there's no way getting away from that day with who I am and who I am today. So really, that's why I wanted to wear number seven. But also, I wear that number seven because I have had the honour to meet so many of those 52 people that died that day their families and their friends and they live with this as well as other victims that have been affected by terrorism every day of their life so I wanted something to give me strength really and each and every one of those 52 people and their family give me still give me strength every day. So there's a few things I want to pick up on. One of the first things you said there is how you look at it.

And you talk about that belief as well, you were meant to get on that tube. Was there a point that you can trace to the beginning of your rebuilding process that you were able to make a conscious decision on how you were going to look at it um yeah i mean i think i think in life we're faced with many turning points all of us but i do look back and i look at one day uh where i think it was a big turning point and it it actually came about seven weeks after the bombings happened and I was only strong

enough that that day seven weeks after to sit it up in my bed and transfer to a wheelchair and go to the physio gym um and basically throw a balloon up in the air which was like a huge med ball so for me um I remember going into this room and seeing all manner of different people. And I suppose it was a day of two halves for me really, because I went into this, this gym and I met other victims of that day of seven, seven. And I felt quite angry the first time I went in there because I looked around the room and I looked at

everyone's injuries and everyone's physicalities and all I kept thinking was well why have I lost both my legs above the knee why am I the most injured survivor a female, as I'm looking at other victims who lost, you know, one foot, one arm, one leg. So it was that feeling of why has this happened to me? But then, interestingly, I started talking to these other victims and I realised that a lot of them were more psychologically traumatised than me. I don't know why. If I knew that, I'd probably be a multi-billionaire and put it in a bottle. But, you know, I started speaking to them and started realising that, you know,

they're going to find this, we're all going to find this tough, but they're going to find this we're all going to find this tough but they're going to find it extra tough and I felt like I had a job to do I suppose to talk to people I think you probably know that I quite like talking we love that slightly dangerous sometimes but um yeah so you know I felt like I had and that I could help these people and as a result of that I believe this was my day as well as that obviously again I've mentioned already but I I had no idea that 52 people had died that day I went into that room and I had no idea about that so when I found that out I pretty much turned around to myself and again I know this might sound cheesy but I don't think there's anything wrong with cheese sometimes um but I turned around and said Martine pull

yourself together you've got two choices and you can sit there and you can keep asking that question and obviously that question was why me why me and I said never walk again or decide to get up and and get on with life and and I realised looking down that room that I had a choice I had a choice I don't know what my life was going to involve in the future but I had that choice and there were 52 people and their families that didn't have that choice so you know I i said i basically said martin put yourself together and get on with it um we had claire on yesterday and she very much talked about the sense of hanging on to her sense of self her identity you know she had worked for the samaritans previously she was a mother previous to her she had lost her partner to suicide and she had miscarried and she talked

about going back to some of the things that were her beforehand. I have a feeling you've always been chatty. Yes, yes I have. And I'm just wondering was there something else or were there other parts of you from before that you were hanging on to or using? Because we're looking for i suppose those tools or those things you were able to use to rebuild whatever those blocks were yeah i mean again you don't think of those tools before you need them um and you know i believe all of, all of us have a story. There's your listeners today, yourself. All of us have got a story or know of someone that has a big story of sadness, I suppose, or trauma in their lives.

And, yes, I, people had said to me when it all happened that I can get through it and that I was always a positive person I was always a glass half full than than half empty um and again you know you don't think of the resilience you don't think of how I'm going to deal with this you know obviously in the beginning I thought who am I yeah I woke up and I was literally half the woman that I was eight days earlier and it was it was who am I now and and what is my life you know I was an international marketing manager the night before celebrating with work colleagues that we we won the Olympic bid and then suddenly eight days later i was disabled i was an

amputee i was as i said half the woman that i felt like i was back then um and i thought yeah i thought the most important question was what you know what was life now and that wasn't the most important question i had to ask myself was what was I going to do about it and yeah you talk about how um uh I might have gone back to familiarity I mean from familiarity and strength and love is from my family and from my friends and there's there's no way that I would have been able to get through what I went through I mean I work I remember one day my brother said to me and it was very early on straight straight after I'd come out of the coma, and he was crying by my bedside.

Now, I laugh because there were many people crying by my bedside at that point. And he said, I've had a terrible thought. I'm not going to tell you. And I said, please tell me, Grant, what is it? And he said, out of three of us, and I've got an older brother and an older sister, I think you've been chosen. I think you have been the one because you're the strongest out of all of us.

And I don't think me or Tracy would be able to handle that. And that belief, not my belief, but his belief in me, you know, really got me to think to think right I've just got to get on with it I've I've got to get on with it and I think the way that I've coped with it a lot of the time is comparing myself to other people and that helps awful awful people yeah and I used to feel really selfish about saying this very early on, 18 years on. I don't because I think it's to do with our mental well-being. Thankfully, we're more aware now and that's, you know, a positive that's come from COVID and things like that. But I think we are more aware of our mental well-being now.

But, yeah, it's that thing of just trying to get through you can you can get through and and and for me what has helped me with my mental well-being is is that belief that belief in myself but also the belief that people have in around you and also the belief that I was lucky that day so yeah you are there were 52 people that weren't and I was lucky that day. So you are... There were 52 people that weren't and I was lucky. So I think what I'm really hearing from you along with your great sense of humour

and obviously strong personality and resilience is gratitude. And that seems to be the thing that has got you through. And I think all of us need to look out there. You know, people need to realise, well, I think everyone does realize especially with what we've all been through the last the last few years but

you know i believe the journey in our lives is the destination there's no utopia there's no you know things will happen good and bad in our lives and it's the way that we deal with it the way that we believe in what has happened to us that will get us through it's the way that we deal with it, the way that we believe in what has happened to us that will get us through. It's been so lovely speaking to you Martine Wright, remarkable and our series Rebuilding My Life does continue on Thursday when

I'll be speaking to the author, Wiz Wharton, about her ongoing recovery after being sectioned under the Mental Health Act 24 years ago and that's because we'll have the phone in on the Minister for Men tomorrow. But Martine, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

There's a new film out in cinemas in the UK this week that's getting a lot of buzz. Back in June, Rolling Stone magazine called it already the best movie of the year. It's called Past Lives. It's the directorial debut from New York playwright turned filmmaker, Celine Song. I suppose I could call you also Canadian-Korean filmmaker.

Yeah, there's lots of different things I could call you. But it tells the story of Nora and her childhood sweetheart, who is Hye Sung, who she left behind in Seoul when her family immigrated to Canada. And they reconnect years later in New York when Nora is happily married and grapple with what they are to each other. I'm not going to put any spoilers in there,

but Celine Song, welcome to Woman's Hour. And what a beautiful film you've created. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here to talk to you about it. So I was reading a little about you. So this film seems somewhat autobiographical when we look at the sole Canadian-American connection. And you did have an experience of a childhood sweetheart visiting

you in New York, even a scene similar to the one that opens the film, which is three people sitting at a bar, the friend, the woman, and the husband. How much of you is in that main character, Nora? Well, I think that, you know, I think of it very much as a bit of an inspired by or like adaptation of my life or something like that. But I think the initial feeling that the entire film is inspired by is the feeling that I had when I was sitting between my childhood sweetheart, who is now a friend, on one side in this bar in New York City. And on the other side, I had my husband who I live with in New York, and I was translating between these two men. And I realized that as I was translating between these two men, and they're in language and in

culture, I realized that also that I was translating between two parts of my own self. And it really kind of brought a lot of weight to that moment, even though it was just such a passing and kind of an ordinary seeming moment. And then I think that from there, that subjective feeling went through the process of becoming a movie, which is a bit of an objectification process, where I was very much at one point just thinking about making a movie, right? Where it's like, it's about characters, I have cast roles, actors for the roles. And then at the end of it, I think that it's been amazing to see the film become subjective again, and the film become

personal again, in the eyes of the audience. Yeah, let's play a clip, shall we? This is Nora telling her husband about Haesung after they've met up when he comes to visit her in New York. And in this clip, her husband has just asked her if she's attracted to Haesung. He was just this kid in my head for such a long time. And then he was just this kid in my head for such a long time. And then he was just this image on my laptop.

And now he is a physical person. It's really intense, but I don't think that that's attraction. I think I just missed him a lot. I think I miss Soul. Did he miss you? I think he missed the 12-year-old crybaby he knew a long time ago. You were a crybaby? Yeah.

Greta Lee and John Magaro playing Nora and her husband Arthur there in my guest Celine Song's debut film, Past Lives. You've said that you think romantic drama, I love this, is often driven by grown-ups behaving like children with each other. But there is honesty and maturity, perhaps, from that conversation, that clip that I played, that we mightn't expect in a usual love triangle. Well, I think that because the movie is about these people, these people's childhood, and the connection they had as in childhood. I think the contradiction of, you know, any of us who has the kid inside of them,

and then I think that that kid still persists, even though, of course, you know, for example, you and I are meeting in a professional capacity as grown women. But I also know that, oh, inside of both of us, there's a 12 yearold girl that if you knew her, you would be able to conjure up right now. And we would just know that those girls, 12-year-old girls are running around in this room. And we don't know that about, you know, and I think that to me is really at the heart of the film to behave as adults and to treat each other as adults and to care for each other because we also know that they were kids once and that's where they loved each other. I don't know whether I'm ever going to look at my guests in the same way again. I'm just always going to be thinking of the 12 year old

girl or boy opposite me instead. What a lovely image. That is why you are a filmmaker. But you were a playwright beforehand. How is that leap? And, you know, I just, for my listeners that aren't familiar with your film yet, I mean, just a cursory look. There's people talking about four or five awards that you will be up for with the Oscars. That's what they're expecting. But, you know, I think that moving in from, moving from

theatre to film, I think some, a lot of the experiences and skill sets that I had in theater, which is, you know, at the end of the day, story, character, you know, dialogue and, you know, scene work, blocking, like those are the things that I was able to then bring into filmmaking. Because that is exactly what is expected of a film director.

So I think that to me was the transition. It was actually, I found it to be a really lovely transition, you know. Yeah. And tell me also what you would like audiences to take away from the film. You know, it is this sliding doors, what ifs, what could have been. It's so interesting. Our previous guest was talking about she'd gone on a tube. She was the victim of a terror attack. But she talked about that, you know, these moments, what happens and what doesn't happen in a life that can have huge consequences. Well, I think that, you know, I think exactly what you're talking about when it comes to the audience is having their own personal response to it, depending on I think it also has to do with

what relationship you have to your own life and your own love, you know, and I've actually found that because the movie is out in the US, so I also have a bit of like an audience response. And then I think that it's such a varying thing, depending on how old you are. So for example, if you're 16, and never been in love, versus if you're 60 and you have been in love many times, I think that it changes the way you see the film. And I've heard both ends of everything. I've heard the one side from people who are single, like, you know, this movie really made me want to fly to another country to see if that connection that I had

is real and just really investigate if that person that I'm kind of hung up on is going to result in something. But of course, on the completely the other hand, I also heard like, you know, your movie made me get over my ex. Oh, really? And then of course, when it comes to people who are in committed relationships, I've heard both like, you know, this movie after this movie

made me want to go home and hug my partner and tell them I love them and I'm grateful for them and I'm happy to be with them and I want to be I can't wait to grow old with them but I also heard the complete other side which is they were like you know this this movie made me realize I need to break up with my relationship break up with the person I'm with so I think it really does have to, I think how the audience I expect to walk away from it is, you know, it really has to be connected to their own lives and then the way that they have been living their own life in the moment that they did.

It's also about timing. It's about timing. And it's also fascinating because there's subtitles. Some of it's in Korean, some of it's in English. You flip between the two and that's kind of our back and forth and time lapses and whatnot as well.

But so much food for thought. It's been wonderful having you in. I wish you all the best with the film and it is out in just a couple of days if that has whet your appetite. I'll segue into my next segment. Past Lives hits UK cinemas on the 7th of September. Celine Song, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Now, we're going to move on, talking about wetting the appetite. Yes, yes. Do you wish you cooked more, but you don't know where to start? Jotam Ottolenghi, called Bea Wilson, the ultimate food scholar. She's the author of six books on food-related subjects. Not the recipe book, but she does have her first cookbook out, The Secret of Cooking, Recipes for an Easier Life in the Kitchen.

I mean, what's not to like about that? Why a cookbook finally, Bea, and welcome. Thanks so much for having me. It's lovely to be here. I'm surprised it's taken me this long because as a child, I used to sit at the kitchen table reading my mum's battered copies of Madder Jaffrey and Jane Grigson and fantasised of writing a cookbook and I've finally done it. And, you know, I did do the subtitle there, Recipes for an Easier Life in the Kitchen. Explain that for us. Well, I think cooking is one of those things that can be a total joy. I mean, I sometimes sort of fantasize if you were a TV chef standing in one of those spotless kitchens and someone was just handing you those beautiful little glass bowls filled with perfectly prepped, already chopped, minced garlic and oh, that's so nice. There's the ginger and here are the beautifully julienned courgettes. It would be fine wouldn't it if you hadn't had to spend three hours of headspace

thinking where do I shop? How do I get this? What recipe do I cook? Are my kids going to eat that? Are they going to be picky? Is everyone else at the table going to have it? How do I cater for vegans? Is this healthy? There is just this endless chatter in our own heads, I think, about cooking that makes it hard. It becomes yet another thing on the to-do list, some kind of obstacle, another way to berate ourselves for coming up short or failing. And what I really wanted to do in this book, I mean, I wrote it for selfish reasons. I wrote it for myself as much as anything else. really wanted to do in this book, I mean, I wrote it for selfish reasons. I wrote it for myself as much as anything else. I wanted to figure out as someone I've loved cooking

all my life, but it suddenly seemed to have become a source of anxiety. How could I get back to that state of cooking as a child where it's just a wonderful game that you play with all of your senses where no one loses? So I did put it out to my listeners about how did they find that joy in cooking again. Here's Claire. She says, I renewed my love of cooking when I went vegan around eight years ago, making vegetables the star of the plate and finding inspirational cooks and chefs to influence my cooking. Let me see another here.

When I stopped seeing cooking as something I had to get done three times a day and started seeing it as a chance for self-care and to nourish myself, life changed for the better. 8-4-8-4-4. How did you make it more enjoyable? I think it's the thing to say straight away. I mean, the book's called The Secret of Cooking. And I thought of the title long before I had any clue what the book was actually about.

I just thought of the title, thought, that sounds good. And my background was as a historian. And I was aware that long before there were cookbooks, hundreds of years ago, there were these things called books of secrets that were a mishmash of cures for melancholy. And here is a potion that will take away a man's baldness. And then there'd be a nice little recipe for jam in among it all. So I liked the idea of the secret of cooking, but I didn't really know what it was. And I thought, I feel a bit of a fraud here. What is the secret of cooking? What is the secret of cooking? And then I thought, oh, I do know. The secret of cooking is the person who cooks. And the more I thought about that sentence,

the more I thought that's true in every situation. So to answer your question, it wasn't just one thing because all of us are many different people when we cook. The kind of person I was before I had kids, I used to do elaborate things. I got to the semi-final stage of MasterChef. I used to kind of take shellfish heads and turn them into stock. I used to reduce things into a jus. I used to deep fry garlic cloves just as a garnish for a soup. I'd never do any of that stuff now. So I think you have to think about yourself more. I think you have to take care of the cook fundamentally, which is you. And you have to think what's going to give me joy. So that answer of the person who said going vegan was the answer. For someone else, it might be realising

that you actually really enjoy batch cooking at the weekend, and you'd rather store up your cooking energy for those later moments in the week where actually you don't want to cook. Whereas for someone else, you might be feeling very stressed and anxious and think, actually, what I really need is a couple of hours of kitchen therapy. And I've been all of those people at different times. Let's talk about the kitchen therapy, because you suffered a big loss in the process when you were writing this book. Your husband of 23 years in the middle of the pandemic, I should add, left you for another woman. And you write, and I'm quoting quoting you here I'm not pretending that cooking mended my broken heart but it did help right it hugely helped and in ways that kept surprising me

so I had um written the book proposal and got the deal to write this book about a month before he left and I can picture all these conversations I kept having with people during that first lockdown. It was such beautiful weather, wasn't it? And we're having these long dog walks. And I kept saying to friends, we're so lucky both of us have work we can do from home. We have a happy home life. I just now think how stupid I was. And I just didn't see what was coming. Yeah, you just know, none of us fully sees the truth of a situation until things change. And then you look back and hindsight tells you other things. But the funny thing was I then had this project in front of me

and I'd written all these things in the proposal about cooking so far from being a source of stress can actually be a cure for stress and cooking can be a remedy. And I think I just wrote it because it sounded good. And then, left by myself, suddenly having to do all of the cooking, I kept being shown the truth of it over and over again. It just, I was living it. So, for example?

So, for example, there were many days where I didn't do much except cry. But then, well, in the evening, after the kids, I'm trying not to cry in front of the kids, not always managing it. But then I had to get up in the morning. My youngest son, I mean, he's like clockwork. Even in the pandemic, he was waking up bright and early, seven o'clock every morning. And I had to get up and I'd make him pancakes. And I'd be feeling quite shaky.

But just the act of cracking those eggs and whisking them together with some flour and milk and putting it in the pan and it did many things at once it sort of reminded me of my own competence which I was beginning to doubt it gave him pleasure and then my appetite had gone but I just found oh here are some pancakes okay I'm going to eat so it did many things at once um and it somehow did help not every day not to the extent of curing a broken heart and i'm not saying it's going to be the answer for everyone um as i began reading through your book and also what you've written about the book i found myself thinking oh maybe i could get back into cooking i'm not a cook i'm'm a terrible, terrible cook. So let's assume that some people listening are like me and don't really enjoy it. Or maybe they're great cooks,

but don't enjoy it. What do you suggest? Again, I suggest going to where you are. I mean, do you want to cook more? Probably could be a bit more gender equality in my house if I did. Your partner cooks a lot. Yes, exactly. And he's a great cook? He's a great cook. And he loves to cook? He loves to cook. So I mean, it's possible that that division of labour is working for both of you. But you'd like to cook sometime? Yeah, perhaps. And is it that you don't enjoy the time it takes? I think I've just left it by the wayside. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people, I put a question out in twitter on twitter when i was writing the book of if you're scared of cooking or you don't like it why and the number

of reasons that came out there were so various like but a lot of people said i feel rubbish at it i don't know if that's how you feel you've just described definitely rubbish and what i would recommend under those circumstances is maybe i mean it's not original at all to my book. Rukmini Aya has done entire books about this, The Green Roasting Tin. I've got a couple of recipes in my book where you just do all in one and just put it in the oven. There's one which is a paneer jalfrezi where, honestly, when I make that recipe, you just cut a few things up, mix it with spices and oil, put it in the oven. And 40 minutes later, you think, who has just cooked me the most delicious curry? Like, why does the house smell so good?

It's as if someone else has done the cooking. OK, I'm very into that. I will give it a go and I will report back. But what I was intrigued when I was looking, you have lots of shortcuts and secrets. And we've only got about a minute or so, but I think we should share a couple of them with our listeners. One of them, if you are feeling too flat out exhausted to saute things, which for many people, it's just that prep stage. You don't have to. I discovered in traditional Italian cooking, there's a whole family of soups and stews.

We just put everything all in one. I call it mellow soup for frayed nerves. Delicious. It cooks itself. You don't have to peel ginger. That's another one. And if you're feeling really shattered and you don't want to get out a chopping board, just grate some courgettes straight into the pan. Olive oil, garlic, a little bit of nutmeg, lemon juice, and it just cooks itself down. Melting soft, delicious. Either a side dish or turn it into a pasta sauce. So the book is beautiful. How's the heart? Much better, much better. And the cooking helped and friends helped and dog walks helped. And the great thing about cooking is you've always got another chance to do it the next day as well. I have another listener who got in touch. I really don't enjoy cooking, but I've adjusted my mindset to nourishment and health. It's helped me take more care of myself and how I cook. You were nourished during that time.

I really was. It fed me. I fed myself and I felt better about myself as a result. It's been so good to have you in. And of course, many of you will know Bea Wilson already, but her first cookbook

is called The Secret of Cooking, Recipes for an Easier Life in the Kitchen. I'm going to try it and I'm going to report back. I might even put it on social media. It has inspired me this morning. And I just want to remind you about our phone in tomorrow where we'll be talking about the idea floated earlier by Nick Fletcher, the MP, whether we need a minister for men. Do you agree with him with what you heard or do you think it's an unhelpful distraction from inequalities that exist between men and women? You can have your say tomorrow.

You can call us, tweet us, email us at Women's Hour. The text is 84844. And we're at BBC Women's Hour on social media. I cannot wait to speak to you then about it all. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. Can you just tell me who he is? No.

Has he got any distinguishing features? His anonymity. What's his name? Banksy. I'm James Peake and I'm on a mission to find out how Banksy became the world's most famous and infamous living artist. He could literally be anyone. Banksy essentially

humiliates the art world. With dealers, critics and someone who once worked deep inside Banksy's secret team. Do you wish you didn't know he was? Sometimes I wish I'd never heard of Banksy. The Banksy Story, with me, James Peake, on Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

How does he smell? Like paint. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.