Woman's Hour - Nicki Chapman, Los Bitchos, Post Office Scandal

Episode Date: August 30, 2024

Nicki Chapman is well-known for presenting shows like Escape to the Country and Wanted Down Under and also a regular presenter on BBC Radio 2. She started out as a record plugger in the music industry – and now she’s written a memoir, So Tell Me What You Want, which lifts the lid on what it was like managing and touring with the likes of David Bowie, Take That, and S Club. She joins Anita Rani to talk about her career so far and her recent cancer diagnosis.Two sisters, Eileen Macleod and Maureen Bedford, are to receive honorary degrees at the ages of 90 and 95, more than 60 years after they finished studying. The pair trained at the Bedford College of Physical Education in the 1940s and 1950s, but did not receive formal degree qualifications. Anita talks to them both about gaining qualifications in their nineties.The Post Office Horizon scandal has been described as the most widespread miscarriage of justice in British legal history. One of those impacted was Ravinder Naga. In 2009, he falsely confessed to stealing money from his mum's Post Office to protect her from going to prison. Last week his conviction was overturned after 15 years. Anita talks to Ravinder and his mum Gurbash about what happened, and the impact it had on their relationship.Los Bitchos are an all-female band from countries across the world who play a range of instrumental music from the style of Colombia folk music to Turkish psychedelic rock! All four members - Nic Crawshaw, Josefine Jonsson, Serra Petale and Agustina Ruiz, join Anita to discuss their latest album, Talkie Talkie, and to perform live in the studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour and have we got a Friday treat for you. The four-piece girl band Lost Bitchoss are going to be in the studio. I'll chat to them about their new album and making music together. Also, Team Woman's Hour would like to congratulate Maureen

Bedford and Eileen McLeod, two sisters aged 95 and 90 who, 60 years after finishing their studying, are getting honorary degrees. They went to Bedford College of Physical Education and studied PE, but were never awarded formal degrees until now.

So well done, ladies. This morning, though, I'd like to hear about a time you finally got your validation. Not everyone does things to get something in return. Some people are just wonderfully generous, but it is nice when someone sees you. Maybe you've guerrilla gardened your local green space and someone said thank you did you eventually get the promotion you knew you always deserved

did someone admit they'd made a mistake and you were right all along have you been given an award maybe you too got an honorary degree often women have to do ground do all the groundbreaking work but it takes a while for them to get the acknowledgement they deserve, if they do at all. So let's hear your stories today. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email via our website,

or you can WhatsApp or voice note us on 03700 100 444. Talking of validation, you're going to hear a story today from Gurbhaksha and Ravinda, who are mother and son. Gurbhaksha ran a post office and was caught up in the Horizon post office scandal, a huge miscarriage of justice. Gurbuksh was accused of taking money when it was a system fault, as we know. Her son Ravinda, however, in this case, took the blame. We'll hear their story a little bit later.

That text number, once again, if you'd like to get in touch with me about anything here in the programme is 84844. But first, to my guest, who is sitting in front of me. You've just illuminated the studio, Nicky Chapman. It's lovely to have you here. Thank you so much. Lovely to be here. It's so good to be here. Is it? Yes. Well, I am honoured.

Let me introduce Nicky. You know the voice. You know the face. Well-known face on our TV screen. She's presented a range of shows from Escape to the Country to Wanted Down Under to Pop Stars. And of course, you recognise her voice as a regular presenter on BBC Radio 2. But before all of that, Nikki had another life in the music industry. She started as a record plugger and later management executive, and she's written her first memoir, So Tell Me What You Want, which lifts the lid on the heady days of the 90s and 2000s pop music industry and what it was like managing and touring. I'm going to name drop quite a few names, then Nick is going to bring in some more spy skills, David Bowie, Take That, Prince, S Club 7, all while confronting chauvinism, as well as the most enthusiastic of Gary Barlow fans. Why did you want to write your story, Nikki? People always ask me, what's it really like in the music industry? What was it like back in the 90s?

And that really was where I started with the book. I joined in the late 80s and it was an incredible time. I mean, we're now so into our nostalgia, aren't we? And it is a step back and we're really loving it. But I put it off for years. I was like, no, no one's going to be interested in me. I don't really have a story to tell because I was the plugger. And a plugger is someone who promotes people on television and on the radio. Explain the job the job because people won't know what that is. Yeah, so it's a funny title, isn't it? Probably publicist might be a title that people are more familiar with.

And if you think about a record company made up of many, many different parts, like a jigsaw, the people that sign the artist, they're called A&R, artist and repertoire. But then if you think about it, you've got marketing, you've got sales, you've got everything. But the final piece of the jigsaw is the promotion and without us getting that away you're never going to be able to break new artists or maintain the fame and hopefully success for established artists so I was called a plugger the girl behind the scenes and that was my job and I loved it and then when I got ill a few years ago

and I was you know very ill at the time brain ill a few years ago, and I was very ill at the time. Brain tumour. It was brain tumour, yeah. And I was thinking, you know, well, if I don't make it through, because you have to be realistic. And I was thinking, I've actually had a really lovely life. I mean, not perfect, because no one's life is perfect. But I've got great family, I've got great friends, and I have had the most amazing career. And if I get through this, perhaps I'll do things slightly different. And I was very lucky. Thanks to the NHS. I made a great recovery and I've got my fingers crossed. How are you? My health is really good. So thank you. And I am beyond grateful for that.

And then you start looking back, you know, what might have happened. And I was thinking I should embrace these memories. And perhaps I will share them. Anita, it took me four years. Well, I've got so many questions. I didn't rush. Before we get into some of these stories, you said that you might do things differently. How had you planned to do things differently? It does shake you up when you've had that sort of prognosis. And you do think, OK, I won't take anything for granted.

I think anyone who's had a life changing illness will probably say that to you. I haven't had an amazing wish list. I didn't do that. But what it does make you do is have clarity about your life and embrace the good times and remember them. You know, hopefully you're going to have them in the future, but celebrate the past. And you've done that brilliantly for us because you've written this story. And it is quite a story because as the plugger, you were right there on the sideline for so much.

And I would say in quite an important time in music because it was television, it was live performances, it was music videos, it was radio. I mean, we're just, and I grew up in this era. Yeah. So let's start at the beginning because from reading your story, you strike me as somebody who's quite determined and just goes for it. So you had an idea.

You were working in sales and decided that you'd rather work in the music industry. Yes. With no contacts. You were living out in Herne Bay in Kent. Absolutely. But there was one girl at college who did work experience at CBS. And I went to a local supermarket which we all know the name of and I counted loaves of bread for a week because that's what I had to do and I was

thinking I couldn't do this as a job I'm so sorry she did CBS how glamorous and it planted the seed so when I came back from traveling CBS CBS records yes yeah so um when I came back from traveling I thought actually why don't I apply for three record labels? Those jobs were there. People weren't applying for them in those days. And I got offered all three. And I took the most glamorous, which sounds very vacuous. But I thought, you know what?

Working with artists. I loved music. And I'm not a music snob. And so I started off in the promotion department as the secretary. They all went out for lunch at one o'clock they didn't come back those were the days in the late 80s early 90s and that's why I chose to write the book in the moment yeah I've written it sort of in the present tense if you like so I'm taking you through that journey I love how you just give that throwaway line so I applied

for three jobs and got all of them and took the most I mean that doesn't happen to most people well it doesn't up and now really does it because we're so much more media savvy but in those days remember you know no social media you know everyone sort of just got on with things you didn't have all of this going on externally if you like and so I think because I've been traveling they thought oh she's quite good we'll give her a job and you started and you observed and you watched and you started out taking all the notes and then eventually you got an opportunity to start plugging um and uh we're going to jump a little bit because you looked after your first boy band who would take that yes how was that and just how obsessed were these fans um everything that you

wanted it to be and more and yes the fans were obsessed i can remember turning up at the big breakfast at sort of 5 30 6 o'clock in the morning and i walked in and all the fans were obsessed. I can remember turning up at the big breakfast at sort of 5.30, 6 o'clock in the morning and I walked in and all the girls were outside and then someone spat at me and I was like, I haven't been paid for this. I was like, who did that? Who did that? And they're like, no, no, no, sorry, Nicky,

because they knew that if I was around the band that I might be talking to the band and then they wanted to be painted in the best light. Someone obviously just got a bit over jealous. It was a whirlwind and i'm really grateful because i've worked sort of two of the biggest pop acts that we've had in the last 20 30 years and take that was very special to me i mean anita you and i our paths crossed back in those days yeah you know i can remember when you started out at the ozone which was a really popular

tv show and i remember you coming in as a as the plugger talking to the researcher and you brought in a band that no one else had ever heard of called s club seven and that's who you were promoting was it yeah it was in 98 99 yeah that would have been right you were talking to was it simon the researcher yes yeah and you'd brought in s club seven my goodness so you really have built the careers of you know for quite a few people so take that and and the spice girls we've got to talk about the spice girls what was it like being part of that they were again you know being there right not at the very beginning they'd already been

put together by a different management company and they'd broken with that management company and the book is called so tell me what you want because simon fuller who is a renowned manager i had dinner with him with Annie Lennox and he turned around and he said what does the industry need tell me what it what you want and I said I want a really good feisty but talented girl group I've got to take that but I'd like to work with some women and he literally rang me six weeks later and he said I've bumped into them I've got them the band that's given me given me, look, goosebumps. Yeah. And so you'd kind of planted the seed. I had with him and he went out and they'd already been put together and,

but they hadn't had a deal or anything like that. And he rang me and I said, what girl group? What girl group? I'd forgotten completely about the conversation. He went out and found them. But the music industry, as you know, it's about what's going to make money. So did you, do you think you had, you understood at that point that point that this is not just what you want, but actually people want, that they're going to be successful? I think there's certain people that you work with which have that touch, that they know what the public might like. But if it was such a great formula, you'd get it wrong.

Because we've all worked with artists that are brilliant and haven't made it for whatever reason. There is so much luck involved, timing, passion. You know, radio wouldn't play Take That. Radio wouldn't play the Spice Girls at the beginning. It was television that broke both those bands. And luckily, I did TV promotion. And my TV family, if you like, those producers, those researchers, were the ones that supported me. And I managed to get them on television and that started the ball rolling um I'm a very small cog in a big big wheel

um but a very important one because if it wasn't there nothing else would work we got we we yeah we often got it right and the ones I didn't get right I don't talk we don't talk about it so what was it like promoting wannabe um it It was exciting. We kept putting it back. I went to the video shoot. I can remember it so clearly. And we kept putting it back. And it was building and building and building. And there was a show called Surprise Surprise, which was one of the biggest shows on television.

With Cilla? With lovely Cilla. Oh, my goodness. And I managed to convince the producer. The girl sang to her in the toilets. It's all in the book. And she booked them there and then. So I had an unknown

band on the biggest television show and remember behind the scenes there was every other record company with their pluggers pushing their own artists you're competing the whole time you see now I might make you blush now I've got a theory about why I mean it is of course the music but I actually think I believe it's people that make business happen. And I've known you, not since just back then, but know you now in our broadcasting lives, and you are genuinely one of the nicest, loveliest people ever. Totally authentic. And I think that's your superpower.

I think that's why people maybe put your acts on. I'm not saying that, I'm not taking away from the music. I think, you know, your relationships with people. What a compliment. Thank you. Honestly, it means the world. At the beginning of the book of the book I say you know for people like me that work really hard you know we're transparent we're kind hopefully we're supportive I hope it shines through because it's a difficult industry but Nikki you had to deal with divas tantrums like come on you I know you're nice and that was just some of the men yeah yeah all the men basically

the men how did you like did you go off and like grit your teeth because you just have to turn up and smile I mean Bobby Brown on top of the pops yeah I mean it you know tell us that story not the most pleasant of characters I mean fantastic music second to none came in we were super excited it was the height of his fame you know London exploded we closed down Piccadilly when he did a signing. But just that day to day mentality, just so arrogant and not nice to be around. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. And we performed, we were rehearsing. We did Wogan, which was a huge show back in the day. And then we did Top of the Pops. It was recorded live. One of the few times it was recorded live. He was there all day. There was a massive halt. Four minutes he was performing for. We did all the rehearsals.

We did everything according to plan. He wanted to go to the Hard Rock Cafe. Other burger places are available. And I let him go thinking he'd come back. And then his entourage rang me on my massive brick mobile phone and went, he's not coming back. Bobby wants a burger. And I thought they were joking.

Of all the rock and roll stories, and he didn't come back. And I had to call the producer and say, you're live in an hour and you now have a four minute Bobby Brown holding because he's not coming back because he wants to finish his burger obviously he's not here to respond there's so many stories Prince and Annie Lennox and these are just you know gods basically idols idols I know the real deal as well myself writing the book and I had a lovely lady called Sarah Thompson who wrote with me. She co-wrote it with me because my writing process was so slow and she was amazing at keeping me focused.

So many of those wonderful memories came back and that's what I wanted to put down on the paper. But you were also working at a time with lots of up-and-coming young artists. We mentioned Escobar, Billie Piper, Charlotte Church, Amy Winehouse. How much of a responsibility did you have? Did you feel around a lot of these young women at that time in the industry? I mean, and you were putting them out there, you know, for promotion. I definitely felt felt it.

I think one of the reasons that Record Label asked us to work with Billie was because she was just turning 18. With Amy, we signed her at 16 and we said to her, you're not putting anything out. We're going to put you on a development deal so that you can just live your life and take your time and work with incredible people. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think we were really nurturing. I still stand by, you know, those decisions that I made and those artists were hungry. They didn't want to stop. If you said to them, take six months off, they'd be like, no. Now they look back on their lives and they probably think, yes, I would. But hindsight is a wonderful thing and I think people the record companies were very good with Amy very good indeed like took all the pressure off her but I think we've all learned

lessons any documentaries recently that you might have watched even I'm like oh my goodness I was there and I had no idea so I think we we could have done better but then I think we all could have done better it wasn't just we all could have done better it wasn't just about the music industry it's about all areas of business and what about your own experience of navigating a music industry that is you know we know it's sex the sexism is wrong we found this was then nothing was being talked about I think it's much better now much much better you talk about tv producers who you said that i won't go into meetings with them alone in the book that's true and when i took my new job at rca records with my boss he said is

there anything i should want to add to your contract you got this you got that and i said yeah i don't go into those rooms with those guys on my own you come with me for all lunches or dinners or public you know anything we did even that takes confidence and but he said yes he absolutely understood where i was coming from which in today's world is madness. But he looked me in the eyes like, I will be with you every step of the way. And I worked for some incredible men. And I really want to point that out. Lots of fantastic MDs and my business partner.

But there was this element, and I'm not going to lie, and I do touch on it in the book because it wouldn't be right not to, that was there. And I was often compromised. But you dealt with it? I did. I did. I got on with it and I made sure that I didn't put myself in those positions. I also have to say that it's a love story because there were lots of, we know, sleazy men in the industry but also wonderful men and you married one of them. I did, yes. I've been married for 25 years to my husband, Dave Shack. He still works in the music industry

and I say there's a lot of good people there. And the reason I wrote the book is because it was such a joyous time. So obviously there are elements in it, but it is a celebration and I loved working in it. I truly, truly did. Brilliant, brilliant, talented people there

on stage, but also behind the scenes as well. It was a real family. And now having been through all of that, you were right there at the beginning of TV, music, talent competitions. You were there for William, Gareth Gates. And we've seen that, the rise and also the demise of that. Absolutely. Can you look back? You know, what are your thoughts on all of it? Well, we did Pop Stars. We had no idea. It was a brand new show. I did it with Nigel Lithgow and Paul Adam and obviously Hearsay came out of it. And we chose Hearsay. The

public didn't. And we thought, well, this is special. When Pop Idol came along, it just went through the roof. I mean, the voting was extraordinary. Millions and millions of people investing. We had battle buses and posters, vote Will, vote Gareth. And then it just took a life of its own. And there's been so many other shows that have come off the back of it. I think if you watched ours now, it looks so like sweet and naive compared to a lot. Because we weren't making a TV show. We were looking for an idol.

And that's the difference. Nikki Chapman, I have loved talking to you. I feel like we need to carry on this conversation somewhere else I'm so delighted you wrote it because well you know what we've talked about this morning validation otherwise you would have

just been a footnote as a woman in the music industry and people now will know that you were a very important part of an industry that was full of men but you were right there that's very kind

thank you Anita thank you and the book is out it's called So Tell Me What You Want it's out today thank you Anita thank you and the book is out it's called so tell me what you want it's out today thank you Nikki um hearing Nikki Chapman on woman's hours brought back many memories of hosting the spice girls or spice as they were called then I was the marketing director at a station at the time and they did a slot for tv what a blast there we go and in talking

of validation someone said I'm a priest and I run an addiction recovery group. The group bought a beautiful glass engraved award to thank me for all I do. I was really touched because I don't do it for awards and the people in the group don't have a huge amount of money. And that's from Rich in Brecon. That's nice. Now, two sisters, Eileen McLeod and Maureen Bedford, are to receive honorary degrees at the ages of 90 and 95, more than 60 years after they finished studying. The pair trained at the Bedford College of Physical Education in the 1940s and 50s, but they didn't receive formal degree qualifications. Over the decades, several institutions offered female-only PE training in Bedford, but none of them had the power to award degrees. Well, I started by asking Eileen what it was like to get the honorary degree in her 90s.

Well, I think it's absolutely wonderful. And it makes all the training and the teaching and the things that I've done really recognisable and worthwhile. How about you, Maureen? I think my views are similar to my sister's, you know, that it's very exciting. And especially as, you know, we are two sisters. I always seem to want to follow in my sister's footsteps when I was a little girl. And we did the same training and we always had that very strong bond.

Why was that, Maureen? What was she like when you were little? She was just a great, great, great girl, you know. We had a wonderful family life with, you know, family and extended family as well, grandparents and that. And we were a great, great bond, all of us. So, Eileen, you are the big sister that led the way. What was it that got you into PE in the first place? Were you quite an active family?

Well, we were country children and we did a lot of walking. And our father was very keen on, and our mother too, we swam, and we had lovely holidays in the south of England, and we were made very aware of God's wonderful natural country. Things were pointed out to us, and we were encouraged just to be, in the true sense of the word, in love with all things natural and all the kindnesses that aunties and uncles and fellow friends gave to us. Did you play sports as well?

Yes, yes. What did you play? I played hockey and netball. I played lacrosse because I taught, when I came to Scotland, I taught boys as well as girls. I played mini rugby, mini football, you know, table tennis, badminton. I can't think of it. And I did a lot of dancing. Wonderful wonderful this is all inspiring stuff Maureen what was it like was it easy for women to play sports when you were at college in the 40s and 50s? Well my training was in the 50s and things were altered in Bedford College you know physical educate well it was physical training in those days but then when we had a new principal and things altered it became more of an called education you know and like my sister played sports when i was at school

i didn't do very much gymnastics because unfortunately our gymnasium had been bombed in the war and so we really for our exercise although we did a little bit of on the floor work and that in the hall we because we didn't have any climbing apparatus I never really experienced that until I went to college and um but we did a lot of dancing country dancing national dancing for all over the world. And this is what I carried on and I learnt Scottish dance and I took that up in my teaching days. I was able to teach all the things that, again, we were encouraged to do from college and introduce them into schools where they'd never done it before, you know. And so physical activity was your life before you went and studied PE

and then you went and had careers, both of you, as PE teachers. But you never received a formal qualification. Why was that? Why didn't you get your degrees? We did get a certificate, which was for teaching, but this was what the colleges gave. They gave you a certificate, and some colleges in those days were, I mean, a three-year training was a good training. Some colleges, I think, you know, just did a two-year training,

and there was very few what we called universities in the country in those days. But then, of course, we were under the Cambridge University for our certificates, but it wasn't like a degree that we get nowadays. And then, Eileen, after college, did you go straight into teaching? Was it easy to get a job? Yes, yes, because I wanted to ski. I always had a passion for the snow and mountains. I didn't do rope climbing, but I'd always done reaching high tops across the border.

But, of course, no English trainings were recognized in Scotland so I had quite a tough job getting a permanent job with a decent salary but it didn't deter me I decided that I was where I wanted to be and so I was referred to as somebody that was on the role of peripatetic teaching. That means I could be sent to any school at any time but I wasn't on their permanent staffing. But eventually that was righted. And where did you end up? Up here in Scotland where they call their academies. And I ended up teaching in Morgan Academy, which has had a very fine reputation.

But it was that early on in those days, it was only girls I taught. And then laterally, co-education was introduced in Scotland. And I taught both boys and girls. Fantastic. And I loved every minute of it, except that a lot of the sports are outside. And it was always cold. Yeah, but the PE teachers get to cover themselves up. It's the poor students who have to wear this.

I mean, I am of the generation that remembers athletics knickers, Eileen. So, you know, I'm still scarred. Maureen, what about you? How was your career panned out then after college? Where did you end up? Well, I ended up at a grammar school in St Albans. And again, it was a girls' grammar school. And my head of department, there was we had a p

department and again she was very insistent about the girls should be taught like ladies and um i wasn't allowed to do anything that might develop the muscles of the body and this kind of thing because she used to say, well, who wants to take a girl out in a lovely evening dress with great muscles on her arms? My goodness. So I did a lot of dancing, you know, from country dancing. I taught Scottish dancing. We did lacrosse and cricket. Do you play cricket with the girls that's good that's right

yes and so you know we covered everything and all the sports that they'd done at college athletics were dead as well and um but it was mostly they had a very long kind of in the school they did a lot of dancing which was lovely you've both had wonderful careers and you've got this graduation ceremony you're going together are you both excited oh yes when when was the last time you saw each other a year a year ago a year ago that's quite a while so this will be a lovely reunion as well as getting your uh degrees um can i ask do you both still keep fit are you both still active yes yes oh yes so inspire the nation um eileen what do you still do i run a very big garden on my own i do uh quite a bit of walking in my mind my um i sometimes feel quite cross with myself because

in my mind i feel i can do so much more physically than i can do but i just think well i do it more slowly you know and we have a lot going on in a it's a very small village in which I live, but there's a lot going on, a lot of activity. We do a lot with our little local village school children. Wonderful. So you're very active still in the community and within yourselves. I just want to say to both of you a huge congratulations from everybody here. It's been such a joy speaking to you. I'm sure you'll have inspired lots of people we should all just get up and get moving really

shouldn't we that's you know i i look back with real affection to my days in bedmasters physical training college i remember so many of the and the lovely thing is that because i and i think maureen did too we joined the old girls association and i still have contact i i met up with the girl i roomed with when i joined in 1945 oh i bet you've got lots of gossiping and catching up to do that if it was not such a long time i just want to remind people because some people might not have caught the beginning of this conversation but eileen's 95 yes i was born on christmas day what a wonderful christmas present that was eileen mcleod and maureen bedford sisters 90 and 95 both receiving honorary degrees in pe from the university of Bedfordshire next week.

Joyful. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, it's been called the UK's most widespread miscarriage of justice. The post office IT scandal where hundreds of sub-postmasters across the country were wrongly convicted of crimes, including theft and false accounting as a result of a faulty IT system called Horizon. One person convicted was Ravinda Naga, whose mother, Gurbhush, was sub-postmistress at Belleville Street Post Office in Greenock, Scotland.

In 2009, Ravinda falsely confessed to stealing money from his mum's post office to protect her from going to prison, all for a crime that never took place. Last week, his conviction was overturned after 15 years. Well, I spoke to Ravinda and his mum, who go by the nicknames Danny and Paula. They say this experience has changed their relationship as mother and son. Danny started by telling me how strong their relationship was beforehand. I was always close to my mum as a child, always have been close to my mum.

Yeah, she's always been. She always had that work ethic. She was never, how can I explain? She was never a stay-at-home kind of mum. She was quite different to all my relatives kind of mums and that because my mum was quite modern. She was like a businesswoman and she wasn't a typical, she never wore Indian suits and things like that, yeah. Doing things your own way, Paula. Tell me a bit about, you mentioned work ethic.

What does that mean to you? Tell me a bit about how you brought your children up. Well, basically, they seen how we were working, so obviously they wanted to lend a hand as well. So we kind of just, we'll knock ten. And how hard were you working? It's not so much as hard as just getting on with your daily chores and fitting your home life into your working life.

She'd start at six in the morning and normally finish at about nine in the evening. Apart from her Sunday rest, she'd finish at four. She'd be like seven days a week, pretty much. Yeah. My dad died because I had a blood clot in his eye. And see, the day he died, she left the hospital and went back and opened the post office

because the post office had no cover for her. That's how committed she was to that job. Can you take me back to 2009, Paula? When did you first get an idea that there might have been trouble in the post office because the post office had no cover for her. That's how committed she was to that job. Can you take me back to 2009, Paula? When did you first get an idea that there might have been trouble in the post office? Like I said, it had been accumulating since we arrived at Horizon. Error notices came and went, but then everything was taken care of, or you reported it or whatever. Someone in your favour, something came back and sometimes you had to pay back. At that time, I think working became a little bit, you didn't know what's going to happen day to day or week to week.

You know, the fear always used to be when you're done, you're balancing. And what was the fear? Tell me, explain a bit more. Like you were obviously balancing the books, but there was discrepancy. What did that kind of do? Basically, you couldn't put your finger on anything. There was times when I was there about 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock, and considering you'd finished at 1 o'clock that day when you'd only balanced it, you know, if something went wrong, you had to pick up a phone. What would they say when you called them?

They used to say, oh, we'll try and see what's happening, and this and that's something they used to say, or we'll correct it this side, or try and see if you can find something there, or check this or check that. And it came to the contrary. They used to say, well, we'll find it this side or try and see if you can find something there or check this or check that. And it came to the contrary. They used to say, well, we'll find it from our end. And then you presume they knew that you're all over,

going to the next counts, everything would have been sorted out. It didn't work out that way. It did not work out that way, no. When did? Because you were accused of a shortfall of around £35,000. So how did you get involved, Danny? I got involved when she called me, she started to blow and she said,

come to the post office. And then I went to the post office and I got there and there's been three post office staff there. My mum's come over. Like I said, my mum's always been quite a strong person. The first time in my life I've ever seen her to the point where she actually looked scared and lost. I've never seen that in my life it's alien to me to see my mum like that then she said to me they're saying there's money missing I've looked at her

and I just said to her I says don't worry I said whatever happens I'll say I done it. I think a lot of people will find that quite remarkable like you hadn't even didn't know what had happened but on the spot you said to your mum whatever it is I'll take the blame. I know my mum's not a thief. I know my mum ran that post office efficiently. I know my mum ran that post office efficiently to the point where she'd miss family functions, she'd miss time at home, she'd spend hours auditing if she couldn't find something, she'd go over and over again. She took pride in running her businesses, she took pride in everything.

I'd never seen her scared in my life, ever. The reason I called him was because I thought I was going to be taken away straight away. Would you imagine your mum, you imagine looking at your mother and you think she's going to be took away at that minute and locked up? Paula, what did you think when Danny, your son, said that to you? Whatever mum, I'll take the blame. I felt he and the young family, that would have been better if they'd known what they

wanted to do to me. But then I remember what he said to me at the time. He said, if you don't let me do, I put my hands up to it, I'm never going to talk to you again. He said that to me at the time. And then rather than have discreet in the family, I just thought, well, maybe for once I should, you know, just do what he wants to do.

And what happened? You weren't jailed? No, I wasn't jailed because I took £35,000 to court. To me, they planned to give me 18 months. You'd basically paid them the £35,000 and that's why you didn't get the jail sentence? Yeah, on the day of court. On the day of court. And that's why you were then sentenced to 300 hours.

That's why I got community service. They make it as if they've done me some sort of favour. No, I gave them the money on the day. On the day I appeared for sentencing. How did all of this affect your family? My wife is young. She'd moved here, only been here a couple of years. We'd met out in India, right?

So, and she just adjusted to being here. My son's born. She's got, my son's born. She's got a young child. Obviously, that within itself takes its toll. She was pregnant with my daughter. Yeah, you had a lot going on, young family. Yeah. And then when this happened,

she started having complications with the pregnancy. She had to go for a scan every two weeks. She nearly lost my daughter twice through all the stress of this. I've got arguing with my mum because she's still trying to go, no, no, I'm going to... How were you feeling during all of this, Paula? Very stressful, actually.

It was out of our hands. Because we couldn't tell the truth either because we would have been done. Yeah. So there you go, like you just said, Paula, there's the added layer there that you were worried about the consequences because, as you know, in order to protect you, you had to break the law. Because you lied to say that you committed this crime. Once he put his hands up, there was no going back.

I thought they were going to now try and do me with perverting the course of justice. So it was only until they guaranteed me they wouldn't do me with that that I let them reopen and look at the case. So in the meantime, a number of postmasters across the country started taking legal action against the post office. And we know this, it's been spoken about. Gradually, the extent of the scandal was finally revealed. A faulty IT system, which meant that hundreds of people

had been falsely convicted of theft, fraud and false accounting, including your family. The Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission looked into your case and in 2023 concluded that you pled guilty in circumstances that were clearly prejudicial and they referred to it as a miscarriage of justice. They gave you permission to appeal your conviction and last week your conviction was overturned.

Does that give you some peace of mind? No, because there's other people out there who still haven't been dealt with. It's far simple. People haven't been dealt with. When I was sitting and I was watching other people being dealt with and I wasn't getting dealt with, I was feeling, well, why are they better than me? So now I feel for the people who are sitting and thinking, why have I been dealt with? And let's look at it this way then. If I did break the law to do what I've done, surely then people should have been caught before me. So, Paula, what about you?

What does this news mean to you? And do you feel you can move on now? No, what it means to me is I've got nothing else to show. He's buried his legacy that I've left behind him. I didn't want him to be, you know, liable as a committed because of me. I mean, he's got a charge because of me. And that's one thing I was willing, you know, I thought if I could do something about it, remove that stigma,

that's why I went for. I mean, everything else exploded after. Everything else came about after what a post office was doing and wasn't doing. But at the time, that was my main concern. Well, if I can clear his name, then I would have felt a relief, which I did on that point that his name has been... He's been cleared.

Yeah, miscarriage of justice. He's been crushed and cleared. But what, you know, before all of this, Paul, are you a very confident, successful businesswoman? How has all of this affected you? Have you been able to rebuild your business, rebuild yourself? No, nothing, actually. My mum's been retired since 2008.

I'm not being... Basically, I had one thing to occupy me, which was the grandchildren. I dropped them off, picked them up from school, nursery, and all that, that kept me going. But apart from that, my life hasn't moved on at all because I was used to working in a public life, working with the community. I like selling the community, I know a lot of people do,

but at the end of the day, it kept me going. That was my daily routine, really, for 27 years. So how are you now? Actually, it's all taking effect now. Going in there the other day. Going in there the other day as well. Absolutely. Even the building hasn't been spared, never mind our lives.

And it's all due to what happened at the time. So you went back to visit your old post office? Well, that was the first time we'd been in 15 years. What was that like? That's was the first time we'd been in 15 years. What was that like? That's when the anger filled into me. That's when he told me, help me. That one day and what had happened a few months later and that was the turning point of, you

know, ruining all our lives. Are you angry? I am angry? I am angry now. I am. Because they turned the light box out. They took everything she built up. Because, God, remember, nobody gifted up these businesses. It took time to build up these businesses and own this. So they ripped all that from her. We did contact the post office and we've had a statement from them. A spokesperson said, we are truly sorry for the suffering caused by the post office's past actions. We're doing all we can to help victims get answers and to put things right

as far as that can ever be possible. What do you think, Paula? If I turned around that day, sorry, I don't know what had happened. Would they have said to that? Is sorry good enough when there's people out of bed? Is sorry going to raise the dead? It is so tragic in so many ways, and so many of these stories are coming out,

and still coming out, including yours. But what is interesting in your story is it's the story of a family, and that we know that it was a family business and that you kind of came together, even in the strangest of circumstances, and the sort of stress and the worry. Are you still a close-knit family? We had our ups and downs.

Things have been strained sometimes. The relationship got strained and there has been a lot of... We're not as close as we were, but we're never not going to be close because the bottom line is this. We're family, We love each other and we know above everything money's not the most important thing. And what's

about the compensation? Will you get the £35,000 back? Do we know that? Well, that's what I'm wondering. I know they're talking about other compensation, but obviously the £35,000 I've paid them at core, that £35,000 is I'm owed and they already owe my mum, which they've acknowledged, £31,000 separately for other horizon and they already owe my mum which they've acknowledged £31,000

separately for other horizon money they've had of her so out with their compensation they already owe us about £70,000 yeah I would like to say before it goes well to all the other victims that are out there we do hope that they all get

justice quickly and the fact that this only came to light because of a TV programme should make our justice system ashamed because we're supposed to have one of the best justice systems in the world. We're supposed to pride ourselves on that. Paula, what would you like to say? Yeah, there's no words for it, really.

Everybody throws their clubby. And how do you feel? Not good at the moment, actually, because this is now when I'm tapping into my feelings, where I had all those years. Yeah. I've not been able to go there. It was just a matter of another day going through.

That was one of the reasons she didn't want to speak to people as well, because it's something that she, when she does start to go into it it opens a lot up for her it's still a lot of stuff where she is still addressing personally within herself uh that was ravinda and grabach naga who go by the nicknames danny and paula mother and son talking to me from scotland about their own experiences and still so much for them both to process there but we appreciate that they came to share their story on Woman's Hour and we're also talking about times where you feel like you've been vindicated validated an email from Gillian said I got a master's of science degree in epilepsy practice at the age of 54 good for you and another one here

saying from Celia it isn't only PE teachers being awarded degrees. I received mine this year as I taught maths for many years. Now I'm 80 and have my proper reward. Well done you, Celia. Now, I'm excited. Have I got a treat for you. I am joined live in the studio by Los Bitchos, a pan-continental all-female band. They predominantly play musical instruments in the style Incumbian music. It's a danceable folk music from Colombia, along with Turkish psychedelic rock, disco, funk and surf guitars. Their debut album, Let the Festivities Begin, was produced by Alex Kapronis of Franz Ferdinand. And they've played at festivals, including Coachella and Glastonbury. And I'm Obsessed. Their second album, Talkie Talkie, is out today. Welcome, Nick, Sarah, Josephine, Augustina.

Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. It's my absolute delight and pleasure to have you sing in front of me. Can I admit that the writing was so small, my eyesight is so bad, and I now need to make the words. I need to get closer and closer to the screen.

Okay, so talk to me about the band. Who plays what instruments? I play drums, Nick. That's Nick. Androm, Sarah. I'm Sarah. I play guitar. I'm Agostina.

I play keyboard. And I'm Josephine and I play bass. Oh, God, you know what I should have said? And tell me where in the world you're from also. Yes. Josephina. I'm from Sweden. I, yeah. Yes. Josefina. I'm from Sweden. I'm from the UK.

I'm from Australia. I'm from Uruguay. And how did the band come together? We met in, well, just being in London, all of us, really. I think we all moved here really to, well, pursue music in one way or another. And me and Agostina connected very strongly at a party. I had fallen into a pond. It wasn't a pond.

It was like a tiny. It was just a tiny body of water. A puddle. Yeah, same pond but it wasn't. It wasn't, yeah, like the back garden had a pond. It did it. But, yeah, I was really wet on one leg and Agostina sat with me the whole night and she helped me drive my shoe and sock

and we really bonded and connected very well from then on. That would do it. So that was nice. And then I've known Josie for many, many years through our mutual friend Leah. Yeah. Yeah. Who I went to music school with.

Yeah, we go back a long time. Yeah. Yeah, we've known each other for ages. And Nick we found also through a mutual friend named Zoe. Lovely Zoe. Well, thank goodness for all these wonderful mutual friends that the four of you have come together because I absolutely adore what you're doing,

mainly instrumental music. We're going to talk about the music, but I'm going to start by asking about the sound. Where did the sound develop from? I said, everyone describes it as Cumbian music. What is that? Is it Cumbian or is it a bit of this, a bit of that? I think we took influences from it.

It's obviously very big in South America and I'm from South America. But it's the mix of a lot of things. Also Turkish music and I don't know. Even like in the first album, we yell a bit and we took thatkish music and i don't know even like in the first album we yell a bit and we took that from like punk and ramones and i don't know it's just a mix of a lot of things you yell a bit yeah you yell a lot yeah the vibes are strong um but there's no no singing it's just instrumental whether that who was that on purpose it was always meant to be an instrumental project, I think, just because we were so inspired by instrumental music at the time.

So we just wanted to do something a little bit different. What were you listening to? What were you inspired by? Peruvian cumbia, the roots of chicha. Yeah, that's where it all began. And your own background. So you're Australian, Turkish heritage as well. That's correct.

Yeah. It's all melting in there. And the new album, Talkie Talkie, is named after a fictional club. What's the mood of this record, Josephine? It's a bit of like a party for sure. And I think, yeah, we came up with the sort of name. We thought it sounded like, you know,

if we were having this like our own little nightclub or just venue that is just like the world of sloth pictures we were like oh talky talk is a great name for you go there and you have little chit chats with the people you know and people new people you meet but also we kind of feel like it represents kind of the home of all of the songs on the album and i don't know in our imaginary world we also feel like you can go to like a room in this place which also plays each song so it's like if you want to go and like dance you can listen to La Bomba which is quite disco

maybe you want to play some video games you can go to another room and listen to Kiki You Complete Me which is very sort of video gamey I don't know, you can sort of go in there and choose your own adventure I quite like that, what would be playing in the toilet? Good question. I would not have thought about that. Yes. A toilet or elevator. I think it's great for that one.

An elevator in the apartment. I like this place. But video games are an inspiration as well. Yes. Sarah is a big fan. Grand Theft Auto. Yeah, Daytona. But yeah, I think it's just the immersive nature of video games and the fact that, like, these soundtracks really make or break,

I think, the games. And I just love that about video games. There's an immersiveness to your music as well because you fully embody whatever it is you're projecting. It's a party vibe and I want to be part of it. Really? And I kind of I'm slightly obsessed with wanting to know how much fun the four of you are having like doing this project together so much

fun definitely yeah part of it um I think it's I was definitely playing in some quite serious bands before Lost Bitches and it's it's definitely been a lot of fun to just kind of let go a little bit and yeah i don't know i think the music's so uplifting you can't help but when we even started the band it was always just like let's just do something that's just really fun and i think that's really like carried through like through the years it's just the core of it yeah is there a sense of power because it's for women doing this together? Oh, go on, yes. Yeah. Come on, I can see that.

I mean, I asked you off before we started the interview, but I'll ask you now, but are there a lot of young women coming to see your gigs or is it a mix? It's a real mix, actually, our audience. Different ages, different generations, all genders. Yeah, it's great. Everyone's always welcome.

Absolutely. And dads with daughters absolutely yes I was going to ask to join the band but I feel like the fringe game

needs to be very strong let's get you to the hairdresser we can find a hairdresser so all four of them have got these magnificent fringes in fact can I say

when you marched through the Woman's Hour office very early this morning, a lot of us looked and were admiring the fringes. And then we all looked at our own hair and were like, no, can't do it, too curly, too wayward. Did the fringes come before or is it a collective thing? It's a happy coincidence. Yeah, we've never sort of talked about it and we're like,

right, we're all getting fringes. I think most of us have had fringes for most of our lives. Yeah, I think it's... My haircut's since forever. Yeah. It's really interesting to start the programme with Nikki Chapman and discuss music industry when she was doing music plugging. What a lovely woman. She is.

Absolutely lovely and a wealth of experience and knowledge as well. Such a different world. Were you talking to her backstage about... We did. We had a really nice chat with her she's so lovely and um you know you don't we would you don't do you have a plugger yes a radio plugger she also mentioned like a tv plugger as well we're like we don't even know how do we get that doesn't that say something about the world we're in yeah there's so few tv shows where you can promote your stuff yeah but you love a video we do we do your video i have to say go go onto youtube watch all the videos and one of your earlier ones it's you up against a green screen with a beach yeah behind you yeah yeah yes that

was just another green screen no time budget. We love a green screen. No time, no budget, but you were imagining a beach. It's always a bit of, yeah. We were lucky enough to actually go to a beach this time around. Precisely. So you've got to a point where you've gone to a beach. Tour coming up? Yes.

Big one. We're going to the States in September, third week of September, and Canada and Mexico for the first time, and then the UK in October and Europe in November. Yeah, we've got a big UK show, sorry, London show on the 7th of November, which we're really looking forward to. And the second album is out today, Talkie Talkie. Yeah. I've loved that you came to talk to me on Women's Hour

on the day of release. Yeah, it's such a good timing. Oh, my pleasure, and thank you for performing live. They're called Lost Bitches. Just basically spend your whole weekend doing nothing else but dancing to their music. They are on tour. They're also performing at Rough Trade East

in London on Tuesday before going on tour in Europe, US and back in the UK in October. Thanks to all of you. And thanks to you for listening. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Nature Bang.

Hello. Hello. And welcome to Nature Bang. I'm Becky Ripley. I'm Emily Knight. And in this series from BBC Radio 4, we look to the natural world to answer some of life's big questions. Like how can a brainless slime mould help us solve complex mapping problems and what can an octopus

teach us about the relationship between mind and body it really stretches your understanding of consciousness with the help of evolutionary biologists i'm actually always very comfortable comparing us to other species philosophers you never really know what it could be like to be another creature. And spongologists. Is that your job title? Are you a spongologist? Well, I am in certain spheres. It's science meets storytelling with a philosophical twist.

It really gets to the heart of free will and what it means to be you. So if you want to find out more about yourself via cockatoos that dance, frogs that freeze and single cell amoebas that design border policies, subscribe to Nature Bang from BBC Radio 4, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.