Woman's Hour - Nicola Rollock, Sexsomnia, Liz Truss, Anonymity prior to charge, Nadine Shah

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Nicola Rollock, Professor of Social Policy and Race at King's College London and an expert on racial justice, has a book out, The Racial Code: Tales of Resistance and Survival. in which she explores the hidden rules of race and racism, how they maintain the status quo, the pain and cost of navigating everyday racism and how to truly achieve racial justice.The Crown Prosecution Service has apologised unreservedly to a woman whose rape case was dropped after defence lawyers claimed she had an episode of a rare sleep walking condition called ‘sexsomnia’. In what is believed to be the first case of its kind in the UK - the CPS now says it was wrong to drop the case and it should have gone to court. The BBC followed Jade McCrossen-Nethercott’s case as events unfolded over three years. Emma speaks to Jade and Emma Ailes, the producer and director of the BBC 3 documentary : SEXSOMNIA: CASE CLOSED? about why she began following Jade's case. The Home Secretary Suella Braverman has signalled that she may consider giving anonymity to criminal suspects as she feels a “media circus” jeopardises a fair trial. Speaking to an audience of Young Conservatives at the Conservative Conference in Birmingham, her comments came in answer to a question referring to the high profile cases of singer Sir Cliff Richard and Harvey Proctor, a former Conservative Member of Parliament, who were falsely accused of sexual abuse and never charged. Currently, alleged victims of sexual offences receive lifelong anonymity under UK law but there is no law against naming a suspect. So what effect would it have, particularly on women, if anonymity were given? Joining Emma is Lady Nourse who was cleared of 17 counts of historical child sex abuse involving a boy under the age of 12 in 2021, and Mark Williams-Thomas, an investigative journalist and former detective who exposed Jimmy Savile as a paedophile. When was the last time you tried something completely new? After over a decade in the music industry, 4 successful albums, and a Mercury Prize nomination under her belt, Nadine Shah has turned her hand to acting for the first time. The singer, songwriter, and musician talks to Emma Barnett about fear of failure, updating Shakespeare, and learning to act for her debut role as Titania in Matthew Dunster and Jimmy Fairhurst’s production of A Midsummer Night's Dream.It’s exactly a month since Liz Truss became leader of the conservative party and today she makes her first speech in that new role to the party faithful at their conference in Birmingham later this morning. Instead of the usual honeymoon period a new leader can expect to enjoy she has been beset by adverse publicity after the unveiling of chancellor’s mini budget almost two weeks ago. It led to huge market unrest with the pound plunging to record lows against the dollar. Emma speaks to Kirsty Buchanan, her former Special Advisor.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. As the country's most powerful woman, the new Prime Minister Liz Truss, only in post for a month, prepares in about an hour's time to take to the stage at the Conservative Party conference to give what some are calling the speech of her career, to try and calm the party faithful after one of the most chaotic and turbulent starts to a premiership and to appeal to you, the British public.

I have a question for you. If you were one of her speechwriters, what story would you be thinking of that may endear her to you? And if you were to relay it to your own life, if you were having to think about what could be a story from your childhood, from something about when you were growing up that could endear you to an entire nation, what would you pick? Sakhir Starmer, in his equivalent speech at the Labour Party conference last week, talked of growing up in a pebble-dash semi,

his father being a toolmaker, his mother a nurse, and the first family car being a Ford Cortina in the 1970s, where he talked about money may have been thin on the ground, but hope wasn't for the working classes. If you were trying to come up with an endearing story about your life, what would it be and why? And why would you choose to tell that to the whole country when you're trying to establish yourself as the Prime Minister?

I'd love to hear these stories from you this morning. 84844, that's the number you need to text me here on the programme or on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email those tales through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note on a different number, 03700 100 444. One poll out last night to give you an indication of how big a task this is. This speech is always a big deal, especially for the Prime Minister. But just to give you a sense

of how much is riding on this in terms of the mood of the country. One poll last night gave Labour a huge 38 point lead in the so-called red wall of former Labour seats up from 15 points two weeks ago. And the veteran pollster Sir John Curtis has said that Liz Truss is now as unpopular with voters as Boris Johnson was when he was ousted. Also on today's programme, as the Home Secretary, also talking at the Conservative Party conference, suggests allowing criminal suspects to remain anonymous, one woman who has strong views on this is Lady Lavinia Norse. She'll be joining me. She was cleared of 17 counts of historical child sex abuse last year.

The singer, Nadine Shah, is also on the programme, talking about a career change as she tries her hand at acting, and the extraordinary case of the woman taking on the Crown Prosecution Service after her case was dropped because of something called sexsomnia and more coming up on the programme. So do stay with me for that. But in about an hour's time, around 11 o'clock, the Prime Minister Liz Truss will be getting to her feet to make that speech to the party faithful to the Conservative Party Conference in Birmingham. Far from the usual honeymoon period a new leader enjoys, perhaps in their first few weeks in power, it's been mired in difficulty. During this week's conference,

at least five ministers have raised concerns about the fairness of her plans to cut benefits in real terms when people are struggling with the cost of living. This, of course, following huge market unrest after her government's mini-budget almost two weeks ago. Liz Truss will apparently be delivering around a 25-minute speech when she stands up at 11 o'clock today, and we're told we'll enter the conference hall to the soundtrack of a 90s classic. Maybe there'll be dance moves Theresa May style as well, who knows?

We're told the speech will highlight the immense scale of the challenges facing the country, and the Prime Minister will argue that economic pressures mean Britain must do things differently, even if that means difficult decisions in government. Well, one woman who knows Liz Truss well is Kirsty Buchanan, her former special advisor. I'm pleased to say she joins me now. Good morning, Kirsty. Good morning. Is she a good speechmaker? Do you think she comes across well? Well, I think everyone has seen the endless meme of her now notorious 2003 speech where she delivered a quite peculiarly passionate advocation of pork markets in China and cheese imports coming into Britain. I kind of want to say, look, you know, everyone get over it.

She once delivered a really bad speech about 10 years ago. But I think it's fair to say public speaking is not her strong suit. Oratory has never been her best messier. And there is a lot riding on this. So I think it should be the speech of low expectations. And if she gets through with it without committing significant use and no major stumbles. I think we'll call it a scored rule. Right, because I know you've also helped her in the past with speech making and delivery.

Yeah. So, I mean, the thing that everyone knows about Liz is she has a quite peculiar intonation in her speech patterns and her delivery. It's quite staccato. Now, in private or when she's confident and things are going well for her, that tends to flow better. The words come out with more ease and she seems more relaxed to herself. But unfortunately, this has not been a week that's gone well for her. She's under intense pressure with this speech to reunite a warring cabinet, which has been in open revolt against each other and some key government policies all on the face of the of the conference floor in a quite extraordinary collapse of discipline she's also got to calm the jitters of MPs many of whom are now no longer in Birmingham they've all they either didn't come in the first place or they're skedaddled because

there's a rail strike today so it's going to be a kind of half-hour speech in a half-empty hall which has got a massive massive task of trying to restore discipline with their cabinet calm the nerves of the market reassure the public that she really does have this clear plan that she says that she has for medium and long-term growth and the idea being that if you grow the whole size of the pie the whole country will benefit. I mean even when not giving a speech she's done a lot of media interviews in the last 24 hours and and one particular interview with Sky News she was asked does she have a mortgage and she says half kind of laughs at the question because it's gone from broad macro subjects to something very personal but then then she says yes, and then doesn't then answer the follow up, which anyone would imagine you would be prepared for, which is are you having

to look at your mortgage at the moment, you know, about interest rates and things varying. And I wonder from working with her about that ability to connect on the personal and to appeal to the nation, which is what she needs to do now. It's not about the party faithful anymore. And as you say, a half empty hall, again, people may say it's rather ironic with the rail strikes going on on her watch. Yeah, I mean, look, the point about the mortgage question speaks to a wider point about where I think some of the connection problem is coming with this government. This government talks about growth growth growth

have you ever been on a doorstep or had a caller into your program that said what this country needs is growth what people are concerned about is there particularly this winter which is going to be a very difficult one is how do they heat their homes what they're now also concerned about is how do they pay for their mortgage so growth isn't really it's a kind of classic think tank policy wonk macroeconomic view that hasn't been converted by fluent human speak into what it really means to people which is paying food putting food on the table paying for their mortgage and heating their homes and they've not made that leap and I think that's some of the reason why she kind of stalled on it and the train strikes if you like going on

in the backdrop of this speech is a very powerful reminder that as unbelievably difficult as this conference speech has been and this conference has been for the Conservative Party when they get back to Westminster things get considerably considerably worse. People's bills, electricity bills and gas bills have gone up considerably despite the government's intervention. Mortgages will now go up and they could go up by hundreds of extra pounds a month. We have a large and growing public sector pay strike. And this is before we've even factored in what will be a likely winter crisis in the NHS, which already has a backlog of 6.5 million people because of COVID. This was a terribly huge and very, very difficult entry to start with.

And nothing that we've seen in the first month has done anything other, I'm afraid, than exacerbate these problems rather than move to address them. At the beginning of the week, I was speaking to a journalist, to Rachel Sylvester of The Times, who talked about the fact, there was a study out which showed girls don't necessarily want to be leaders. They talked about what else they want to do in their life. And we were looking at the adverts for female leadership. And of course, we talked about Liz Truss.

And Rachel made the point that we seem to, in the last two female prime ministers, have women who do not wish to show the human side. There is a difficulty in coming across that way. And yet the stereotype would be women are better at that, that they have empathy, that they have those sorts of skills. I'm just minded to mention a message that's come in from someone listening saying, poor Liz needs to show her human side. Why do you think that seems to be a problem, according to some? I mean, it's just Liz is not one of life's great gushers. You know, she just doesn't.

She's fiercely proud of her kids, but she won't wear her kind of motherhood on a sleeve, if you like, and use it. She's, you know, she's a proud and strong woman, but she doesn't like to play the sexist card. You know, it's just not in her DNA. She's a, you know, she's just a kind of, you know, she just plows forward and keeps on trucking. And that's actually who she is. She's not prone to sort of bouts of introspection or long, dark nights of the soul.

She's pretty certain of who she is and pretty confident of who she is. And how would she, just on that point, if I can, how would she cope with, for instance, polling by JL Partners found the word most commonly associated with this trust was incompetent, followed by useless, untrustworthy and dangerous. How does she cope with criticism? I mean, she deflects criticism. I mean, bear in mind she's had criticism all her political life.

I think she's literally one of the most robust and resilient people I have ever met. I have rarely seen her confidence in herself falter. I think some of the issue with that, and that's fine, but I think you need some advisors around you that have good emotional intelligence, that speak fluent human, if you like. And I think some of the problems we've seen is that a lot of the people in number 10, whilst individually, they're incredibly capable, very, very smart people, en masse, they're all this kind of policy by Petri dish, think tank land kind of people. And if you want to see a dangers of groupthink, and what it turns into when it comes into delivery, I think that's what we've seen over the last couple of days in terms of tax plans. And there's still to be seen, you know, a spending plan of how we're going to meet these 43 billion pounds worth of now unfunded tax cuts.

Has she asked you back? Would you go back? I have a wonderful job with Stonehaven and I'm very happy. Thanks and I'll stick with that. You'll stick with that. Okay, it's just if you're talking about speaking fluent human. Is there a story do you think that will be coming out from her backstory, her past today that you imagine? I mean, I think we know this, but I think she will talk about her backstory

as it relates to what drives her in politics and her conviction. And she will try to make the link between what was a sort of middle class background and the desire to hard work and get on in that. And we'll try and get back a bit to that aspiration nation that she referred to on the doorstep when she became prime minister. Kirsty Buchanan, her former special adviser, Liz Truss' former special adviser, not going back, it seems, to number 10 to help her former boss speak fluent human, as it were, but thank you for talking to us this morning. A message here, why are we so obsessed with people's backstories? Well, it's not about being obsessed necessarily,

it's what perhaps pollsters think works when trying to get to know a leader. Liz Truss needs to be looking forward, not trying to win us over with tales of how hard her upbringing was and how she knows what it's like to be one of us little people because she doesn't. Show some empathy and understanding and a bit of humanity, Liz. We don't care if you had to trape outside to the toilet on cold, dark nights, says Kim, who's listening. Well, I'm not necessarily saying that was part of the story, but we'll see what emerges

in that speech at around 11 o'clock. Well, one member of the cabinet who did seemingly pitch her speech perfectly yesterday to the Conservative Party, faithful enough to give her a standing ovation in the conference hall in Birmingham, was the new Home Secretary, Suella Braverman. In a wide-ranging speech, she called for an end to mass migration, said she wouldn't accept the status quo on dealing with rape, declared police must have all the powers they need in the face of violent protests and railed against the poison, as she put it, of identity politics. She also promised to tackle illegal migration, but emphasised there's no immediate solution and that the government faces opposition on many sides.

The Guardian, Guardian will have a meltdown. As for the lawyers, don't get me started on the lawyers. And I'm a recovering lawyer. But what I can pledge to you, what I can pledge to you is my total and undeniable and unfettered and unconditional commitment to doing whatever it takes. And despite those obstacles, I won't give up on you and I won't give up on the British people. Suella Braverman speaking at the Conservative Party conference yesterday,

but it was speaking to an audience of young Conservatives the day before that she stated she may consider granting the right to criminal suspects to remain anonymous as she feels a media circus jeopardises a fair trial. Her comments came in answer to a question referring to the high-profile cases of the singer Sir Cliff Richard and Harvey Proctor, a former Conservative Member of Parliament, who were falsely accused of sexual abuse and never charged. Currently alleged victims of sexual offences receive lifelong anonymity

under UK law, but there is no law against naming a suspect. And Braverman said of this, I think coverage of people prior to charge can be very, very damaging, particularly if the charges are not pursued or if they are dropped later on. What effect then would it have, particularly on women, both as victims and suspects, if the right to be anonymous was granted. Joining me now, Lady Lavinia Norse, who was cleared of 17 counts of historical child sex abuse involving a boy under the age of 12 in 2021, and Mark Williams-Thomas, an investigative journalist and former detective who exposed Jimmy Savile as a paedophile. Lady Norse, if I may begin with you,

and I remember our conversation very well last year when you came on the programme and spoke very recently after that court case ended and talked very emotionally about the experience for you. Many of our listeners will remember that as well. But what do you think of the proposals that the Home Secretary is considering? Is it a step in the right direction? Good morning, Emma. It's most definitely a start. It's always good to think about

how we can make things better for complainants and suspects. But, and there is a big but, I've got four points. The first one being this does not deal with the real mischief, which is people outing individuals online. The second point is, complainants and witnesses spread information that damages the person

under investigation for the rest of their life, no matter the outcome of the case. The third point is, there needs to be consideration post-charge for those acquitted. For them, there continues to be the feeling of no smoke without fire. I'm so sorry. And an inability to even move away from the allegation. And the fourth point is, even after the acquittal, information continued to circulate

whether new or not. It is there. Take a moment if you can, Lady Norse. I'm so sorry. No, no, please, I apologise. I'm affected, but even now I still am affected by it. Let me bring in Mark at this point. Mark, good morning. Morning.

Just some of those points from Lavinia there. What do you make of what she's saying? Because, of course, we have talked about this proposal before. The Home Secretary is going to look at it, but it still won't necessarily deal with some of the issues that Lavinia is dealing with. Lady Norse made some very valid points there. I think we're in a very different world now because, of course, media and social media allows information unvetted, untested,

to be circulated very immediately. And, of course, once it's there, the damage is done. The problem is, of course, is that the balance has to be right. And this is when it comes down to the authorities getting it right. In relation to, you know, and I don't know Ladies Norse's case well enough to make any comment on it, but in relation to Sir Cliff Richard, that was terribly handled by both the media and the police. The way that the story was released into the media in such a circus fashion, of course,

then puts into position the future of that individual and put that down at any level, whether it's someone who isn't famous to someone who is famous. What we need to make sure is that when the police get a complaint, they do the appropriate investigations prior to that information being released into the public domain. Now, there will be occasions. The ACPO guidance or the chief police officer's guidance is that names of individuals should only be released after charge. Where there is an exception, it can be released before. And that exception is where there is a need to garnish information from the public, i.e. other complainants. But that should only be done when the level of the complaints against the individual is such that it is compelling and overwhelming. That's not one single individual. If there is a single individual making a complaint,

that name should not go into the public domain before it's tested through the proper process of a court. So what would you advise the Home Secretary to do? Because, you know, just to remind people, you were the presenter of the documentary, The Other Side of Jimmy Savile, in 2012, which led to the Operation Utrecht police investigation. Yeah, I mean, I think the process still is currently works. There is no need for new legislation. What we have to do is we have to tighten up the process of social media so that there isn't this abundance of individuals out there who feel appropriately that many people will have read my article i did over the weekend

in relation to an individual out there who is currently untouchable i would say not being prosecuted for offenses I have multiple allegations against this individual. I have been to the police and together with the police, we've tried to lobby the Crown Prosecution Service to bring charges against this individual. That hasn't happened to date. But the response that I have had, and I'm talking hundreds of people through my Twitter account, through my Instagram account, saying to me, name this individual, you're as bad as everybody else without naming this individual. Also suggesting names to me of some very famous people that is the world that we're in now people seem to think that it is absolutely acceptable just to put a name out

there and and unfortunately that name then sticks and lady north is having to suffer the impact of what's happened to her as i said don't know case, but that's something now I'm sure that remains online for a very long time. So this is something just to say for those who haven't read your article, this is a new case that you're working on. But you're using this to illustrate the other point around social media and how people believe you should be able to just name and shame, even when we're not got to the point of anywhere near charge yet lady norse um to come back to you that there is a concern if you if if those are allowed to remain anonymous before charge if that that would be the change that would be made if the home secretary went ahead with this there's a concern for instance from some charities victims support women's aid have said that restricting the names of those being investigated will deter others from coming forward.

What do you make of that? In the case of Jimmy Savile, which I think was a one off because there was a wealth of information out there. But in the case of an individual such as myself, there is no evidence whatsoever, apart from what is being made by one person. And, you know, this person has now found it possible to ruin my life. And it cannot be right. It can't be right. So even since the acquittal,

you are still unable, you feel, to live how you were living before? Well, as I think I said, you know, that there's no smoke without fire. And, you know, information has continued to circulate. Circulate, I have to be careful what I say, whether it's new or not. But it is circulating out there and there's nothing I can do about it. Lady Norse, thank you for your time.

Just a final word to you, Mark, because this is a slightly separate point, but it is linked about the world we're living in. We're getting some messages about this saying it's a delicate balancing act between victims needing to be believed and suspects right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. But there's also this other question about those who falsely accuse people of these crimes and the fact that they are allowed to remain anonymous. Would you support a change to that, Mark? I think, just to make two quick points, I think in relation to the first aspect of Lady Norse,

what she's saying is that the Crown Prosecution Service has to go through a balanced testing in relation to the evidence that comes to them and so to the police. So we have to make sure that the police and the Crown Prosecution Service are taking the right cases to court where they feel the evidence is sufficient. I think in relation

to those people who come forward and make things up if we can determine that they have made it up not that they that they you know they're in a position where they're saying this is absolutely true but the evidence isn't sufficient enough to be prosecuted or be convicted upon that doesn't always mean that the individual being prosecuted and i'm not talking in relation to lady norse is innocent it just means there's insufficient evidence then that person if being prosecuted and i'm not talking in relation to lady norse is innocent it just means there's insufficient evidence then that person if they have lied and they've made it up and we can show that and prove that they should be prosecuted absolutely and we've seen that with a recent case that there are people who make stuff up but overwhelmingly the allegations that are made

to the police are made in good faith and correctly. And it doesn't mean to say because we have the weakest or the lowest level of prosecutions in relation to sexual offences that those people are making it up. That is not a correlation. An important distinction. Mark Williams, Thomas, thank you. And Lady Lavinia Norse, thank you to you. Now, to tell you something completely different,

her fans, my next guest's fans, are more used to hearing her do this. But now, from singing to acting, yes, still on a stage but very different Nadine Shah is on the line good morning I'm just going to make sure you can unmute yourself slightly if we can I'm unmuted you unmuted we want to hear your voice because after over a decade in the music industry a Mercury Prize nomination four successful albums you've taken up a debut role on the stage you've never even been in a school play in a new production of Midsummer Night's Dream. Why and how's it going?

I mean, I think it's going well. I'm really enjoying it. I love it. As to why, I had a really difficult few years, which I won't go into too much of it right now because I'm not really ready to. But I ended up taking a too much of it right now because I'm not really ready to, but I ended up taking a big chunk of time away from work and taking time away to mend.

And then when I was ready to come back and, well, my idea was to come back and start making music again, I'd kind of, I just was checking some work emails that were lined up for me. And I think my manager had thrown this, you know, this inquiry as to whether I'd want to be in this play. I think she'd kind of just included that email as a bit of a joke, a bit of light relief for me to come back to and had no way imagined that I was going to say, yeah, go on then, let's give it a go.

But I think it was, it really was because I'd taken this time away to mend. I was in a position where I was, I wanted to challenge myself and I wanted to try something new. But no coaching to do this? Oh, no. No, none at all. And I'd kind of assumed that once I, you know, once I turned up at the theatre on day one of rehearsals, maybe I'd be taken aside and given the odd acting lesson here and there. But no, not yet. But most of my learning comes through watching the other cast members.

It's an incredible cast and it's a real privilege to be sharing a stage with them, with this ensemble. And most of my learning comes from watching them. And it's a very, it's a different discipline from music. But I'm finding some similarities, some things completely alien to me. You are playing Titania, I should say, and opposite you, an unusual choice. You've got David Morrissey as the voice of Oberon but coming from above so you're having to perform for the first time in a play but also not with a person on stage um but with a voice yeah they really threw me in at the

deep end how's that going because a lot of people were saying to me when I was asking them for advice before the role they were like acting is all is all reacting. And I'm like, well, you know, I've only got a voice in this guy. But you know what? He has an incredibly beautiful voice and his recordings are brilliant. And he is this Oberon in the play, the way that David Morrissey's voice is used. He's this omnipresent power. And I think it works really well.

And it gives me a lot more stage time. Good, take it. Absolutely take it. I suppose I'm interested as well though about, you know, people talk about, you know, feeling they shouldn't be doing the jobs even that they're in but then when you go and change like this, especially after, you know, a period of difficulty in your life, would you recommend it to others? Most definitely. I think that before this, there were always moments in life where I was always very caught up in trying to look really good at what I did or looking cool coming across that way. And that was always a real barrier of me trying new things, worrying about what people may think, how I may come across. What this role has enabled me to do is just get rid of all of that rubbish and just allow me to play and to have fun and to explore these things that I never normally would.

And that's something that I would urge other people to do, to really drag yourself out of your comfort zone and to try something new. There's things that I'm discovering along the way via this role that I think they're attributing positively to my mental health, to my self-esteem hugely. And I think ultimately at some point that's going to contribute to my to my music making music's my first love and I think that this role in trying something different that's only going to enhance well also me as a performer I know that you could reply what you're saying to to people's private lives but we are working for so much longer now that you know it doesn't have to be the glamour of musical or stage, but just changing something.

And I know that's also a total luxury for a lot of people. But just trying to change something because of how long we work and how you can have several lives now in one is something that people are thinking about more and more. Yeah. And it's just that it's that thing as well of the monotony that we can sometimes get ourselves stuck into and whether it is a career change whether it is taking up a new hobby you know a volunteering something an external stimulus to kind to wake us up um i i found it invigorating and i know that i know through speaking to friends who have maybe taken up volunteer work since the pandemic or taken up new hobbies, crafts, whatever that may be, it's really at a new venue, this version of Midsummer Night's Dream at the Shakespeare North Playhouse, Merseyside. Lovely to hear your voice, however you're using it. Nadine Shah, all the best and keep going. Thank you. Take care.

We've got some messages coming in. We're talking about the monotony of things. A few talking a little bit about Liz Truss's speech coming up and other reactions coming in. Another one saying, I want an election. Please tell her that. Someone else wanting to know where Liz Truss is in her menopause journey. So curious to hear how she's navigating her age while being in a position of power. But men or women with the overriding characteristics you're talking about do not get to the top. That's one of the reasons perhaps she's not how you expect. Someone else saying, I can't stand the pylon.

I almost want to help her. I wasn't a fan, but I feel like volunteering to help her. Speaking of volunteering, the pylon, I almost want to help her. I wasn't a fan, but I feel like volunteering to help her. Speaking of volunteering, the pylon's relentless. And another one here, the Prime Minister already has an appealing, sincere and serious approach, but now needs to embrace the enormity of the task before her, put more emphasis on her empathy for the whole of the UK, those who are struggling and those who've struggled to achieve things, which are now in jeopardy and reveal her strategies for recovery clearly and honestly. Well, she'll be speaking at about 11 o'clock, we believe.

But to an extraordinary story now. The Crown Prosecution Service has apologised unreservedly to a woman whose rape case was dropped after defence lawyers claimed she had an episode of a rare sleepwalking condition called sexsomnia. In what's believed to be the first case of its kind in the UK, the CPS now says it was wrong to drop it and it should have gone to court. Police in England and Wales recorded over 67,000 rape offences in the year to December 2021. That's the highest recorded annual figure to date and yet just over 1,500 prosecutions. Over the past four years, rape prosecutions in England and Wales,

you'll know this, I'm sure, has fallen, and it's fallen by 70%. The BBC followed Jane, Macross and Nethercott's case as events unfolded over three years for a BBC Three documentary. Earlier I spoke to Jade, but first, Emma Ailes, the producer and director of that film, told me why she'd started following Jade's case and why it was so unusual. I was looking into why rape prosecution rates are so low and trying to understand where cases were dropping out in the system. So I started following Jade's case as she was in the

build-up to trial. And at that time, she was one of the 1% of cases that had made it that far. And it's also unusual because of sexsomnia. And a lot of people will not know what that means. Could you define it, please? So sexsomnia is a sleep disorder. It's similar to sleepwalking. And it manifests in people performing or engaging in sexual acts in their sleep. And it is a medically recognised condition. There aren't any statistics for how many people suffer from this.

And sleep experts believe it's rare. But it does exist. But in this case, what makes it an unusual part of it because of believe it's rare but it does exist. But in this case what makes it an unusual part of it because of how it's been used? Yeah so sex hominia does arise in rape cases and we through extensive research found about 50 cases in the last 20 years where it's been used as a defence by men accused of rape but Jade's case it's unusual because it's the first time that we can find where sex hominnia has been used as a defence in relation to the complainant. Jade, thank you for joining us today.

I think it's important just to hear the context of your case and why it is unusual and what had happened. But I did want to ask why you wanted to let a BBC crew follow you. Um, I think essentially, I kind of felt very compelled to share my experience and the fact that a lot of people kind of navigate the criminal justice system in isolation, really. It's a really overwhelming process. It's really not for the faint hearted, there's uphill battles, like continuously. And so I just felt like it was important for me to be able to share that experience and let people know that they're not alone navigating that process and that there are other people that have navigated it and other people that can support you

and just essentially kind of giving a bit of an insight as to how broken it is, I guess. You've reported that you were raped to the police in 2017. What are you able to tell us about that night? I had a very much like a normal evening in London, nothing kind of untoward around people that I felt very comfortable with. Once the kind of birthday party ended a few of us went back to a friend's house. A few people carried on drinking. I had a small glass of wine and decided that was

kind of enough kind of hit a bit of a kind of tired wall as such so I opted to go to sleep. I was offered a bedroom. I kind of politely declined felt that it's kind of like the wrong kind of message to be giving so I opted for a sofa. I've always kind of laughed and joked that I'm able to kind of sleep anywhere really and fell asleep in the living room while people were still drinking smoking and listening to a bit of like music. I then woke up in the morning about five o'clock to having my trousers off my underwear off my bra and pinged at the back and my necklace broken and I just felt like incredibly violated I felt as if something had penetrated me but I had no clue what and I turned around and there was another person

on the sofa so I kind of got a bit agitated, tried to find out what happened, tried to get some answers. It was just a really uncomfortable experience. I then left that property, called my best friend, where I explained that I think perhaps I'd been raped. But I couldn't be sure at that point. I just felt as if I had, as I said, been violated. As soon as I told her that I thought I'd been to, like, projectile vomited outside a bus stop. And she proceeded to call me a taxi and was on the phone to me until I got back to her house where we decided to call the police. And did you know by who this might have been or did you have any understanding? There was other people in the house.

However, the person that I believe to have raped me was on the sofa as well. So my immediate thoughts were perhaps him and yeah. Two years later not in a small amount of time the the CPS decided to charge the man in question with rape he had pleaded not guilty a trial was set very few rape cases actually get to that point. How were you preparing for that and what impact was that having on you? I mean, I was prepared to go to court. I knew from the get-go that I wanted to kind of really kind of hold him accountable for his actions. As soon as I definitely found out that it was him, DNA came back and things. I needed to kind of just prepare myself as much as possible. I was doing a ridiculous amount of research,

like report to court documents, looking online at the victim's code, old school Ministry of Justice videos on YouTube about like what to expect when giving evidence in court. I just needed to have like as much information as possible to like feel prepared enough to be able to give evidence. As much as I was incredibly nervous and terrified, to be completely honest, I just tried to equip myself as much as I could.

Two weeks before the trial was due to start, you were asked to attend a meeting with the Crown Prosecution Service and you were given permission to record that meeting. We can actually hear a senior lawyer for the CPS giving you the news that two sleep experts had given opinions on your case. They say it's possible you had an attack of sexsomnia on the night in question. Let's just hear it. The defence got a report which suggested if you were awake but you were subconsciously asleep what their experts suggested is that by being in that state you've engaged in sexual activity which then sort of resulted in a reasonable belief in consent. What they're basically saying is that you were in an act of sleep, walking,

and that was kind of giving off signals that sort of led to sexual activity. But how does that tie in with, somebody's capacity to consent so your actions even though you may not consciously be aware of it led to him reasonably believing that you were consenting so sorry to probably like just fast forward probably what you're going to get to in a moment but moving forward from that is there going to be further is it going to be further... Is it going to be like, that's it, done, this is not going anywhere? I don't feel that there's a realistic prospect of conviction.

So my decision will be to stop the case. So there will not be a trial. I imagine that's quite difficult to hear. Yeah. It just brings back so many memories of that actual meeting. And I can even feel myself getting all angry and frustrated. Just no matter how many times I listen back to it, I still get that kind of visceral reaction.

It was probably the most horrendous time of my life actually going through that meeting and then everything unfolded after that. But the way that they conducted themselves, it was really overwhelming. There was like seven people present around a very large table all on one side and I was just by myself on the other side.

It included like two senior Crown prosecutors, four police staff. And my independent sexual violence advisor was on like a team's screen as it was very short notice. So she couldn't make it in person. I don't honestly understand why the police were there. To be completely honest, they didn't contribute anything to that apart from making me feel even more unease. And I should be clear, it didn't go ahead. The case didn't go ahead. It was dropped.

What do you think of the reason for dropping it? Were you even aware of sexsomnia? To me, it was complete nonsense. I didn't even know sexsomnia existed. So yeah, it came as quite a baffling surprise to be told that this is potentially what I suffer from. And essentially that it almost felt as if they were kind of victim blaming me for putting myself in that situation, I guess, and that I'm the sufferer of that. And I, yeah, I don't know, it's just, it's a lot to process.

It's even now, like I haven't really come to terms with this suggestion of a diagnosis. How was your life after this, this decision for the case to be dropped? It was really difficult. It definitely, like, spiralled. My immediate thoughts were, like, I need to quash this. I need to get some second opinions. I need to source my own independent clinical assessments where perhaps I can be clinically assessed,

have, like, the full shebang, full assessment done and try to get to a conclusion that I don't suffer from this because I'd never had any previous kind of disposition to this kind of thing, never come across it before in my life. So yeah, I went to my GP pretty much immediately and was like, this has happened, my case has been dropped. I don't think there's any scope for this to be reopened but it just doesn't sit right with me I need to find out if I do suffer from this um and so I went through the NHS originally declined because they didn't deem me to have any sleep issues so they wouldn't put me through the assessment so I ended up uh sourcing a private private um sleep specialist um and did an at-home study to gain a bit of an insight as to my sleep

and if I would be susceptible for these sexsomnia episodes. And? I have like some mild disposition, but I think like most of the public would. A bit of like snoring, mild sleep apnea and any kind of remote history of sleepwalking or sleep talking as a child would be enough for them to potentially not rule it out. But it's always a mere possibility, never really an affirmative, which is even more frustrating, to be honest. And was that the reason you've decided, as you have,

to take on the Crown Prosecution Service? Very much so. After they dropped it in October 2020, it just didn't sit right with me. The way that they did it, the way that they... They couldn't even shelf it and perhaps come back to it. It was a very affirmative case closure.

So I knew that by doing the victim's right to review, where you basically seek a second opinion, it's an independent review within the CPS, perhaps from a different district as such, I knew that I wouldn't really change my case outcome, like they wouldn't be able to reopen the case, like based on how they closed it, unfortunately, but because it just didn't sit right. I didn't want this to happen to anyone else, to be completely honest, like that it's, it's been some of the hardest like times of my life, absolute emotional roller coaster. And I put forward that victim's right to review

and a few months later it came back that they admitted that they made a mistake. What did they say, Emma? Can you tell us a bit more about the response? Yes, as Jade says, they looked at all the evidence in her case again and admitted that they would have been wrong to drop it. It should have gone to court. They said the sleep expert's opinions and the defendant's accounts should have been challenged and that a jury would have been more likely than not to

convict the defendant. And that's one of the tests that a case has to meet for it to be prosecuted. The other test is whether it meets the public interest. And they said undoubtedly it did. And they apologised unreservedly to Jade. But as Jade says, despite that, the case can't be reopened because the defendant had been formally acquitted. So, yeah, unfortunately, there's no chance of Jade having a day in court. Did the apology mean anything to you, that unreserved apology? I feel like it was just a mere lip service, if I'm completely honest. And I've had a few written apologies now from numerous people across the CPS.

It doesn't feel like it's enough. And when asking them, like, what have you done to kind of avoid this happening in the future, I get some very, like, vague, prepped kind of copy and paste kind of speeches back, really. So it doesn't feel like it's really being taken seriously. And it doesn't feel like a sincere apology at all. A CPA spokesperson said rape is a devastating offence and securing justice for a victim can in a small way help them overcome the trauma. We have apologised unreservedly to the victim in this case. The expert evidence and defendant's account should have been challenged and put to a jury to decide. We are committed to

improving every aspect of how life-changing crimes like rape are dealt with and are working closely with the police to transform how they are handled. We remain positive about the progress that is being made but recognise there is still a long way to go so more victims come forward and report with confidence. Just to come to you, is it over for you now or are you taking further action? I am taking further action and the Centre for Women's Justice have been supporting me through that process. And I am putting in a complaint and suing the CPS for their failings in this. So you're suing the CPS for damages?

Yeah. If successful, do you think that could go some way now to try to close this chapter? I mean, it would definitely be something that could help close it. But I think for me, it's just having that kind of accountability and also allowing people to know that we do have the right to challenge these decisions and that is our right and we should use our voices to kind of action that. So for me, it's more so just to, I don't know, we need to speak up. We just need to speak up. And I'm hoping that can kind of like inspire a bit of change perhaps.

And how is your life today after all of this? It's been a very, very long, drawn-out process. Big breath out there. And breathe. It's been really tough. it's been really tough it has been really tough the last two years especially have really taken me to the darkest points of my life um really gave myself quite quite a scare um but everything got so much I ended up being signed off work for at least like six months and he's recently gone back and I've kind of taken a

bit of a demotion because I just don't have the capacity to to do the job while I was doing before managing a small team as well like it was just too much for me to to manage both of these things I needed to work on myself mentally physically and emotionally from from almost the trauma that the CPS has inflicted upon me I do feel like the way that they've handled this is probably worse than the rape itself, to be completely honest. I have more trauma from their actions than the actual incident. You can watch Jade's full story in the documentary Sexsomnia Case Closed? on BBC3 at 9 o'clock this evening

and now on BBC iPlayer. And I should say, if you've been affected by any of the issues in this story, there are links to organisations for support on the Woman's Hour website. A message here saying, what an amazing young woman. Thank you on behalf of every woman for your bravery, resilience and determination. Now, as the Prime Minister prepares to go on stage shortly at the Conservative Party conference, one thing she has been praised for by some is appointing the most racially diverse cabinet in history. And yet, as my next guest argues, racism and the hidden rules of race are very much alive in modern Britain.

Nicola Rollock, an expert on racial justice and professor of social policy and race at King's College London, is the author of a new book about to come out called The Racial Code, Tales of Resistance and Survival. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Good morning, Emma. So that point, if I can pick up on that, the most diverse cabinet in our history relating to the book, is it a place for optimism? Is it a time for optimism on this front or not?

Well, I think it really depends on what you're using as your benchmark for success and indeed optimism. You started off by mentioning the front bench in terms of the current Tory government. And, you know, I think there's a way in which we fail to explore and understand issues of race here in the UK. And that there's more complexity to it than we ever understand or give space to. And in terms of the front bench, I think the question has to be around what does representation mean? Why do we want representation in the first place? And actually want representation, not just for symbolic purposes, but because if people like me

are in the room, it means that we are advocating for particular issues. And one of those issues will be around race and the priorities and interests of people who look like me. So I think some of the debates around the front bench could be slightly more sophisticated, let's say. Well, which is why I wanted to ask the question. I mean, also, Dr. Tony Sewell, chairman of the Independent Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities. He chaired what became quite controversial to say the least government review interracial disparity. He wrote this in the Telegraph yesterday, which I wanted to ask you about. He said he talks about the new immigrant optimism. Whilst it does not in this report, whilst it does not deny the reality of racism,

it does acknowledge that Britain in most areas is open for the best to rise to the top on the basis of talent. He goes on to say the real test of my thesis was the Conservative Party, often castigated as the headquarters of racism. Now it's the showroom of real diversity. What do you think about that optimism? Well, look, what I'd like to do is go back to a word that Dr Saul used, and I should declare to listeners, Tony Saul and I do know each other. We sit on slightly different sides of the fence when it comes to these issues, but I should put that out there. So look, and these are issues, again, I explore in the book,

but what I'm really taken by and concerned about is the use of some of the language. So he makes use of the word victimhood. And in terms of the debates around race and racism in this country, we seem to reach a really bizarre dichotomy where some people on one hand have been described as perhaps overzealous in their thinking around race and racism. And then the other side, they perpetuate this idea that talking about race at all is victimhood. And I think that's too simplistic. And indeed, one of the things that I explore in the book are the really complex and really strategic ways that black people, it's mainly about black people, that black people use to manage and navigate a society in which they do experience racism. and too base to say that experiencing racism means that you're describing you're being a victim or you're sat on your backside doing nothing. And I think we're missing a trick here. If we truly

see ourselves as a meritocracy, if we truly see ourselves as a democracy, then we have to acknowledge the barriers that people are facing in their journey towards success. We're here on Women's Hour. There's a reason why we have this programme. It's to explore the experiences of women and understand some of the barriers and successes, but some of the barriers that stop us from succeeding. And I would say the same holds true when it comes to issues of race,

just that we're not yet able for some reason, and we might go on and explore that, to examine and understand why we shut down and are not able to have mature discussions around race and racism. What is the racial code? What are you talking about there? Yeah, so the racial code is the first part of the name of the book. And what I'm wanting to do is explore how race and racism are pervasive and a normal part of everyday society. So the best way to think about it for listeners perhaps is to think about the ways in which we

are a class society. But the rules around class aren't written down, but we make judgments about class, whether it's about how someone carries themselves, how they speak, about which knife and fork to use at a proper nice restaurant. So we make use of the rules of class, some of which are written down and some of which are not. So we could say that there's a code around class. I'm making the same arguments around race and racism, that there is a code in terms of everyday forms of racism and how we use those codes to navigate society. And you've given examples, haven't you? Because this isn't an academic book. You're trying to give stories to people.

That's right. So I am an academic, but I would say, Emma, in full openness, I think academics, we can be a bit dry sometimes. And we use language that perhaps only makes sense to other academics and is a very particular way of performing knowledge. And it didn't make sense to me as a woman, as a black woman specialising in racial justice, to write a book that's kind of deep and dense and complex in terms of theory and only speak back to other academics, particularly given the subject. So this is a nonfiction book, but, and here's the twist, it's got stories in it. So what I've basically done is I've looked across the suite of statistics, research reports, government data, and I've pulled out key themes. So for example, there is a chapter that's based in a private members club. And in that chapter, I'm exploring how race and social class come together.

So I'm pulling the data around social class and I've made up a story around it. I've crafted a story around it because I think stories are more compelling for everybody to engage and connect with. And with that particular story, what are you trying to share? What are you trying to show? So what I'm doing in that, so our protagonist in that chapter is miles and what i'm trying to show he's mixed race and he performs the right social class um ways of being so he's wearing a suit from saville row for example just as a class signifier and what i'm trying to show and this is something again we don't seem to pay attention to in this society, is that even though he is middle class, even though he has all the markers of social mobility,

he's still subjected to racism. And this is not the overt racism, as many of us are now familiar with the case of George Floyd and Derek Chauvin, this is the more subtle forms of racism. And just to help listeners understand this, if we go back to that George Floyd moment a couple of years ago, I would suggest quite strongly that Derek Chauvin's racism did not become apparent just at that moment of putting his knee on the neck of George Floyd. There were likely behaviours, attitudes and assumptions and judgements about people of colour in his everyday reactions, everyday behaviours. And that's what we mean by everyday racism.

So this is a book about everyday racism that I think we struggle, some of us struggle, to understand in the UK context. And you also talk about a black mother's guide to black sons everywhere. Yes. Could you give some examples from that? So, yeah, so that's the chapter.

That's the chapter that comes later on in the book and it's called Darker Than Blue. And as I say, the book looks at different themes. So one is based in academia, my own sector. We've talked about the private members club. This particular chapter, I'm really interested in exploring policing and about the raising of a black son and some of the questions and contradictions that might be running through your mind while you're pregnant, but also when you give birth to a black boy.

And some of this is informed by my own research on the black middle classes where we heard about the different perspectives parents had about raising a black girl and black boy. So some of them, I start off with the list about with some of the considerations that black mothers might have in mind. So that might be know the different forms of stop and search and make sure you're well versed in them so that if you are stopped you know what's happening and then in the next line that I say but don't show off to police officers that you know the legislation around stop and search in this in case they think that you're being uppity. If you go to the gym make sure you change out of your gym clothes into more professional wear in case you get mistaken by police officers. So what I'm really doing is I'm not saying this is absolutely how it is 100 percent of the time, but I'm saying these are the considerations that black mothers have in their minds as they try to navigate their sons successfully through society and crucially how as they try to protect their sons within mainstream society well there is a lot more in

there there's many more stories as well but thank you for giving us an insight into what your work has been on of late the book is called the racial code tales of resistance and survival you were listening to nicola rollick they're an expert on racial justice and professor of social policy and race at king's college london it's good to have you on the program thanks emma thank you and good to have your company this morning especially with a lot of you giving advice as it turns out to the prime minister with what some are calling the speech of her career which is set to start in a couple of minutes time so thank you for that as well and i'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. that in a couple of minutes time. So thank you for that as well.

And I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, this is Marian Keyes. And this is Tara Flynn. And we're here to remind you that our podcast, Now You're Asking, is back for a new series. Each week, we take real listeners questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, anything really,

and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help, but also hopefully entertain. Join us, why don't you? Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Radio 4, now available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.