Woman's Hour - Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party

Episode Date: November 29, 2019

In the first of a series of interviews with party leaders, we hear from Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party. Jane asks her about her party’s offer for women voters.Your sex life in your forties - has it become more pleasurable now that sex is less about the biological clock? We’ll hear from psychosexual therapist and couples counsellor, Cate Mackenzie, Samantha Evans a sexual health and pleasure expert and Janet Barter a consultant in sexual and reproductive health at the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Usual eclectic mix on the programme today. We're talking about sex in your 40s. Could it be the best sex of your life or does it come with challenges? If indeed it happens at all, at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram. You can get involved on that. We also have, to start off the programme,

the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, leader of the SNP. And Nicola, you're 49. I'm clinging to my 40s with my fingertips at the moment. But I probably, in case my husband's listening, I probably shouldn't go any further into this discussion. No, I wasn't going to involve you in it. I just wanted to let you know it was happening.

So Nicola with us for the next 20 minutes or so. The SNP manifesto was launched this week, wasn't going to involve you in it. I just wanted to let you know it was happening. So Nicola with us for the next 20 minutes or so. The SNP manifesto was launched this week, wasn't it? Now you want to stop Brexit. Everybody knows that. And to give Scotland an independence referendum again. Now just tell us in a couple of minutes, if you can, or a couple of seconds, even better, what the SNP's unique offer to women is.

Well, we've got a lot of policies that are about improving child care. We're doing that in Scotland right now. We're doubling child care to help women in particular but fathers as well. In this election in particular we've put forward a policy based on experience in Nordic countries and Iceland in particular of increasing maternity and paternity pay but also increasing the amount of shared parental leave so that fathers take more interest in hands on experience in the raising of their young children. And, you know, it's about making sure that women's rights, I set up the first gender balanced cabinet in the UK when I became first minister. I've put women's equality, women's issues right at the heart of everything the Scottish government does. Is your cabinet still gender balanced? It is, yeah. And what about your

candidates in percentage terms? It's not as good, it's not as good, it's lower than, it's not 50% and it's frustratingly lower than I would want it to be. So we have still got work to do like all political parties have. We also have got work to do, a lot of work on getting more minority ethnic candidates of both genders into positions of seniority in the SNP and also standing as candidates. So I'm very frank about the challenges that are still there. But on women's representation, I think we've done a great deal and need to keep pushing that forward. It is a bit of a puzzle. You could hardly have been more prominent. You've been First Minister for five years, but still just 34% of your candidates are female yeah so we and to be fair to labour 53 percent now that's that's impressive no look i on this i don't think it's a enough for parties to sort of say oh we're trying we're trying we've

got to actually do it and we have in in recent elections we've done much better than that so in this one we've not done quite as well i've been a real proponent in my own party and in years gone by, had to fight really hard for this, for positive action schemes to make sure that we were pushing forward. And we've still got work to do. And I will be the first to sit here candidly and say that. But Labour do it through all-female shortlist. Well, we've done slightly different. We have done it in different ways. We have had a system where if there's a retiring Member of Parliament or member of the Scottish Parliament, then there's an all women shortlist. So we are using mechanisms like that. It's just not as effective as Labour's way of doing it.

Well, it has been in previous elections. It's not been in this election. So, you know, you're not going to get me. I believe passionately in equality. I believe in women's representation because not for its own sake, although it's important for its own sake, but because I think there's a lot of evidence that when we have more women in decision-making positions, then the quality of decision-making improves. Well, I know you want public boards to be 50-50 in terms of gender, don't you? You also say that you'll legislate to make private boards the same.

So it does suggest that you could apply exactly the same technique to your own to your own candidates i think we we should and should do more so we have we we've done things in recent years that we haven't done going back further than that but you know as long as we have those statistics then you know i as i say it's maybe a bit unusual for a politician to be so candid about her own party needing to do better. We have in Scotland already legislated for 50-50 on public sector boards. We don't, without going into all of the minutiae about devolved and reserved responsibilities, we don't currently have the legislative power to do that for private sector boards.

So we're trying to do that on a voluntary basis and, of course, encouraging whoever's in the next UK government to make that a priority too. Well, let's talk about that. Polls are not everything, but the YouGov poll out this week has been widely reported. It was relatively accurate last time round, the same poll back in 2017. The SNP is likely to win seats, largely not from the Tories, but from Labour in Scotland. So let's talk about what is likely to be, at the moment,

a reality on the morning of the 13th of December, the Conservatives will have won a majority at Westminster. Now, you are stuck, actually, aren't you? Because support for independence in Scotland may well grow as a result of that, but you can't deliver it. You can't even hope to. I'm going to be slightly obstinate and maybe a bit old fashioned here. We're in an election campaign. And I don't believe if you look at that YouGov poll, a lot of the margins in the constituencies it was looking at were very, very narrow, and it wouldn't take much to change that.

Which constituencies? All across the UK. I mean, in Scotland, some of the Tory-held seats, the SNP is the main challenger in every single Tory-held seat. There are 13 of them in Scotland, and it wouldn't take a lot for the SNP to win. There was another poll out yesterday that showed the Tories would lose quite a few seats in Scotland.

So the point I'm making is I don't think all politicians get a bit superstitious when you start to talk about polls at this stage in a campaign. But we shouldn't see and mustn't see a Tory majority. I was going to put the other possibility to you as well, by the way. But let's say there is a Tory majority. Where does that leave you and the SNP? Well, frankly, if that happens, and I'm going to insist on not accepting the inevitability of that. But if that happens, then it demonstrates yet again, that Scotland's voice is not being heard. And you could keep on saying that for five years, you still wouldn't get independence.

Well, you know, which is why in this campaign i'm not necessarily saying i accept that but it is why in this campaign i will you know knock my pan in to use a i don't know if that's a particularly scottish colloquialism or not but to do everything i can to make sure that boris johnson is not calling the shots right the 13th of december let's say he isn't because not just for scotland actually i think it's disastrous for huge parts of the uk you're in a position then seeking to do in our fantasy morning of Friday, December the 13th, to actually support a Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour government. You say he's not your first choice for Prime Minister.

Probably, or second or third. Well, OK, but why not? I'm not a great fan of Jeremy Corbyn. Because? Well, I'll give you one example. I think he has displayed a woeful lack of leadership on the Brexit issue. He's prevaricated. He's still sitting on the fence. Last week, he said he would remain neutral on the issue of leave or remain. I think if you're aspiring to be a prime minister, then,

you know, you have to be prepared to lead and he's not been prepared to do that. So that's one example. But the more fundamental point here is I really wish, and it's one of the reasons I support Scottish independence, I wish we weren't in this invidious position of having to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea as Prime Minister. But you are. But that's what I'm going to come on to. Go on then. The morning of December 13th, you could prop up, support,

go into coalition with a Jeremy Corbyn-led government. We won't go into coalition. I'm not in favour of a formal coalition. But if we're in this position on the 13th of December, it's because Labour have got themselves into a position of potentially being able to form a government. I absolutely would never countenance the SNP doing anything that would allow Boris Johnson

to walk through the doors of number 10. And so I've set out very clearly, if Labour's looking to the SNP for support to get a Queen's Speech through or a budget through or policies through... Because you would welcome ending austerity? Well, I was going to set out the things, ending austerity, respecting Scotland's right to choose its own future. I'm not asking Jeremy Corbyn to support independence,

but to accept that that's for Scotland to decide. Would any other Labour Prime Minister in that position grant you an independence referendum, which would almost certainly mean Labour could never get into government at Westminster again? Because if they're Democrats, then surely they respect the fact that even if they... They'd have to be kamikaze Democrats, wouldn't they? Interestingly, Labour have kind of got themselves into a position of saying that they wouldn't block an independence referendum.

They're just quibbling over the timetable of that. But this is the fundamental point here. You know, I am a supporter of Scottish independence, actually, because I'm an internationalist and outward looking. I want Scotland to play a bigger part in the British Isles, Europe and the world. But, you know, if you're a Democrat, then you can absolutely oppose independence. That's perfectly legitimate. But you kind of have to accept that it's for the people of Scotland to make that decision. It's not for Westminster politicians to dictate to Scotland what our future should be.

So what would you say if you did support a Jeremy Corbyn-led government to Scotland's Jewish population? I deplore, and it's another example of Jeremy Corbyn's lack of leadership. I deplore his lack of leadership on anti-Semitism. I, you know, we had, my own party had an issue with a candidate yesterday. We took swift action on that. We suspended the candidate. What had they done? The social media posts with, you know, anti-Semitic tropes some time ago, but nevertheless swift action.

But nevertheless, they became an SNP candidate. Sure look, we didn't know about these posts and all parties have to confront that but we took very swift action. The point is as First Minister I work closely with Scotland's Jewish communities and I work with all of our faith communities but to people

who are concerned about Jeremy Corbyn on this or on any other issue, if we're in this situation it's because he's managed to get himself and the strength of his election result in England into that position. And if you're concerned about Jeremy Corbyn, isn't it better to have progressive SNP MPs exercising some influence on a minority Labour government than to have it without that influence? Do you actually have a preference for the morning of December the 13th? Well within

the... I'm not talking about the SNP I'm talking about Westminster and your potential influence on what happens at Westminster. I hope there's a hung parliament yeah because I think that gives with the SNP holding the balance of power because I think that gives Scotland the maximum influence within a system that the last three years have demonstrated make it very difficult for Scotland's voice to be heard and interest to be respected. You are the leader of an unashamedly Remain party, but there's a chunk of the Scottish population, actually quite a big one, nearly 40% who voted to leave. What do you say to them? Well, I talk to people in Scotland all the time who voted to leave.

And some of them, I absolutely candidly concede that some of them voted to leave and some of them, I absolutely candidly concede that some of them voted to leave because they're passionately against the European Union and everything it stands for. But a lot of people who voted to leave, and I think the same is probably true in England as well, it was frustration at austerity, it was frustration at the direction that the UK under a Conservative government was taking and those issues have to be addressed. I also speak to a lot of people, not everybody, who voted leave, but a lot of people, not everybody who voted Leave, but a lot of people who voted Leave in 2016, who, if they were given the opportunity again, wouldn't because they didn't envisage back then the complete mess and chaos. But there's also a fair chunk of the

Remain voting population who say, actually, we totally understand it's simply undemocratic to revoke Article 50. They're out there too. Well, I don't speak to that many people who voted remain who wouldn't welcome the opportunity to reverse this process. Now, I think that's better done in another democratic event like a referendum. I've always said if the only alternative was a no deal, because that would have catastrophic implications, then better to revoke than allow that to happen. What if Brexit happens? And guess what? Economic chaos does not result. Then what do you do? Well, again, we're speculating here. All of the expert opinion, and I know experts are out of fashion in some areas of politics these days, but all of the expert evidence and opinion says that

there is going to be an economic impact relative to our position if we stayed in the EU that's quantified in Scotland is about 1600 pounds per person but it's not just for me the European Union issue is not just about the economics that's really important I'm somebody who believes in Scottish independence I said a moment ago that's actually because I've got an internationalist outlook we live in a world where take climate change I was down in London last night debating climate change. With the melting Boris Johnson. With the not melting fast enough, as far as the Boris Johnson ice sculpture was concerned,

in my view, but that's another matter. But on climate change, it's really important that countries take their own responsibility, but work together. Well, and you have acknowledged Scotland's dependence on oil, haven't you? Which we have to move. You really do. But we are already in a transition away from reliance on fossil fuels. You take electricity supply in Scotland.

Already 75% of our electricity comes from renewable sources. We now have to replicate that in how we heat our homes, how we travel. So Scotland's ahead of the game here, both in terms of what we're doing and the ambition we set to go further. But the point is we will all, as countries countries be able to do more and do it more effectively if we work within those European and international frameworks. Coming out of that on the issue of climate change alone doesn't make any sense. So it's about solidarity. It's about working together. It's about collaborating. Talking of solidarity, it's not easy to be a woman in politics.

You and Jo Swinson are both the leaders of major parties in this election. Do you regret that SNP leaflet about Jo Swinson? The one that accused her of accepting money from a fracking organisation? Well, you know, I'm kind of trying to... Firstly, she took that leaflet to court

and she won the case, so we respect that and I respect the judgments of the court. Why do it though? Well, look, I was a bit that and I respect the judgments of the court. Why do it, though? Well, look, I was a bit confused and I am genuinely a bit confused about Jo Swinson's position here because, as I understand it... Well, you've accused her of, quote, being a bit sensitive. She's very sensitive on her...

I mean, Jo Swinson was a member of David Cameron's government. She voted for austerity, she voted for welfare cuts... Well, some would for the bedroom tax. Well, some would argue the Liberal Democrats did entirely the right thing in forming a government. Well, I wouldn't argue that. Well, you might not, but plenty of people would. Yeah, but there are a lot of people in the constituency I represent, the country I represent, right across the UK, who are actually paying the price for the policies that Jo Swinson enabled.

But on that particular issue, she wasn't saying, as I understand it, and I will be corrected if I'm getting this wrong, because I'm genuinely a little bit confused. She was saying that she didn't personally take money from a fracking company, that money went to her constituency party, her office, I'm not sure, from the director of the company. So it seems a bit like dancing on the head of a pin. And her voting record on fracking, she says now she's really anti-fracking, her voting record in the House of Commons does not reflect that. And I think it's a reasonable point to have made. I don't expect you and Jo Swinson to be best buddies, because why would you be?

But you do share something, which is the fact that you are women in prominent positions. And women in prominent political positions are not the same as men. For example, neither of you could risk having a hair out of place, ill-fitting clothes. And as for attempting the faux bumbling thing, you could never take the chance that people might think you didn't know what you were talking about or you'd forgotten or you'd had a little bit of a lapse. You just wouldn't dare. You couldn't, could you? Absolutely. I mean, women are held to a completely different standard in politics. I actually think the case is true in many walks of life. But in politics, for the reasons you talk about, a woman politician has to spend much more time thinking about what she wears, what she looks like, what her hair is. A guy has

to get up and decide what colour of tie he wears. And he'll be considered a crazy maverick if his tie is... Absolutely. And you have the affectation of Boris Johnson who deliberately ruffles up his hair to make him look rakish and boyish. I think it makes him look ridiculous, but then that's maybe my natural bias against Boris Johnson showing through. But you're right on the other point that,

and sometimes I think this is actually a positive, that I think you will find most women in politics, and I'm generalising obviously here, are much better briefed, much more on top of their game. Because they don't dare not be. Exactly. We know what will happen to us if we slip up and fall short. So in a sense, maybe that makes us better in a generalist sense. But those double standards and different standards shouldn't apply.

Yeah. And of course, you could never, ever have anything like a ramshackle private life, could you? Unthinkable. Well, you know, I'm sure there are many women in politics and out of politics that have issues in their private lives. You know, humans, politicians are human, but, you know, you've got an aspirant, a current prime minister, an aspirant prime minister in Boris Johnson right now who seems to think that, you know,

he doesn't have to answer basic questions about himself. Of course, everybody's entitled to keep elements of their private life private, but when some of those elements kind of go to basic issues of integrity and who you are as a person, then I do think that he should be a bit more candid. It is interesting, Andrew Neil, you were interviewed by Andrew Neil, which Boris Johnson has not so far gone through that. Well, I think it's unquestionably an ordeal. He really, really grilled you about the pretty dreadful situation in the NHS in Scotland.

We know that. We don't know that there's a dreadful situation. We know that your health secretary has been under enormous pressure. Legal guarantee that all patients should be treated within 12 weeks. That's not been met. Recent Audit Scotland report, two out of eight waiting times targets are not being met.

The terrible situation at the children's hospital in Glasgow. I could go on. It is all true. Well, let me address the issue in Glasgow. First of all, there have been particular issues around infection in the hospital.

It's a relatively new hospital. Those issues are being addressed and there's going to be a public inquiry just to make sure we get to the bottom of that. And so importantly, the whistleblowers who tried to get attention for this and they were not listened to. Well, whistleblowers are listening.

Certainly my view, and I've said this openly, I said it in the Scottish Parliament yesterday, whistleblowers should absolutely come forward and my undertaking is they will always be listened to. On the wider issues, all health services everywhere in the world, actually, are facing the increased demand from an ageing population. Scotland's health service is actually performing better.

It has its challenges, as all health services do, but it's performing better than the health service in England, Wales, Northern Ireland. We are investing heavily in trying to build the capacity to meet the increased demand. The Audit Scotland report that you quoted there, it says what you said it says, I'm not quibbling about that, but it also says that on all of our waiting times targets,

bar one, I think that more patients had been seen within those targets than had been the case the year before. Our accident and emergency services are way in advance in performance terms in other parts of the UK. Now, we want to succeed on our own terms, but if you're saying to me that, as my opponents in Scotland, Labour and the Tories often say, we'd run it better, well, actually, the Tories have been in charge in England

and it's doing worse than in Scotland. Labour's in charge in Wales, it's doing worse than in Scotland. So you're bad, but the others are worse. No, the difference in Scotland is not the challenges we face. All health services face those challenges. I think the difference is the focus, the investment and the determination we're bringing to meet those challenges. We spend more per head of population in health than elsewhere in the UK. We've got more staff working in our health service per head of population than elsewhere in the UK. So the determination, the policies, the investment is there and we will keep at it.

Can we briefly discuss the debate over gender self-identification? Now, this is a difficult area. It's something we've addressed on this programme or tried to address. A number of women in your party have cautioned that women and girls really do need these single sex spaces and single sex services. Your government says it's committed to reform in this area, but what would you want to say about that? Because a lot of women and girls do feel vulnerable. Well, firstly, I consider myself to be a very strong ally of the trans community. I think trans people face the most appalling stigma

and discrimination, and I want to tackle that. I'm also a lifelong passionate feminist, and I personally don't feel that these things are or should be intention, but we need to work our way through the concerns that people have. Now, one of the perhaps frustrating things about this, if you take reform of the Gender Recognition Act, which my government is committed to doing, which is about making the process of legally changing gender less invasive less bureaucratic less traumatic i don't think many people would disagree with that but can i finish the point because that doesn't actually impact in and of itself on the debate and the reality around access to sex single sex single sex spaces and. You don't need a gender recognition certificate right now to do that.

The single sex spaces issue is already regulated by the Equality Act, which we're not proposing to change. Actually, we don't have the power in Scotland to change it. So there are a lot of, you know, I appreciate there are, there's a lot of transphobia out there in all countries. We've got to tackle that. But there are also, I accept, people who have genuine concerns. And we have committed to working through that,

to making sure we bring forward draft legislation so that people understand the detail of what we're doing. I wonder whether when you retire and you're some way off. I'm not planning it immediately. No, you are some way off it. Let's say you have really improved the NHS. Let's say you have really improved the NHS. Let's say you have made Scotland, well, by the way, some people already regard it as the best place in these islands or this island to live. Let's say you've improved it even further. Well, you would say that, Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland.

Let's say you do make huge improvements to Scotland. But when you do quit politics, it is still not independent. Have you been a failure? No, I want Scotland to be independent because I think it's the right future for Scotland. I think it makes us more able to have a good, constructive relationship with the other parts of the British Isles. But you won't have delivered the one thing you've based your entire career on. That would be a disappointment to me.

But when I joined the SNP, we have this thing in the membership card. I don't know if it's still in the membership card. It's part of our constitution that the aims of the SNP we have this thing in the membership card I don't know if it's still in the membership card it's part of our constitution that the aims of the SNP are independence for Scotland and to you know further the best interests of Scotland so you know asking me to I want independence because I think it best equips us to have the best health service the best education system the best economy the best society and I will never be disappointed if I manage to make progress on all of these things. But I will always want Scotland to be independent. I hope

that we will become independent soon. I hope that that happens while I'm First Minister and I'll keep working for that for as long as it takes. Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, thank you very much for coming on the programme. We're moving seamlessly on to sex in your forties now. Is this where I slip

out? Well, it's completely up to you I've been encouraged to stay I'm not sure that's a good idea We have more interviews with party leaders on Women's Hour next week, thank you very much for taking the time to be with us this morning We'd also like to hear from you, if you've won something this year, perhaps an award

for a good deed or an award for your work, what did it mean to you? Did it make you incredibly chuffed actually with your professional performance? So contact the programme via our website bbc.co.uk forward slash women's hour. We're also talking about Christmas inevitably.

Are you doing something green this year? Have you decided to ditch the turkey for a more sustainable alternative? Have you considered the food miles when it comes to your Christmas lunch? I had my first chipolata actually last week and it was unforgettable, I have to say. That is not in any way connected to our next conversation,

which may actually be a little explicit for junior ears. So if somebody is off sick with the winter virus and they are relatively young, they probably won't want to hear this. So sex in your 40s. We're going to talk reasonably frankly about this now. It can be the best of your life or it might be the time when you encounter sexual problems or challenges perhaps for the first time. Kate McKenzie is a psychosexual therapist and couples counsellor. Welcome to the programme. Thank you Jane. Janet Barter is a consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Barts

and vice-president at the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare. Welcome to you too. And Samantha Evans is in our studio in Tombridge Wells, a former nurse, a sexual health and pleasure expert. Good morning to you, Samantha. Good morning. Right, now we are, first of all, I'm just going to go through a pile of papers on my desk to get some of the emails we've had from listeners.

Now, here's a couple of comments on Instagram from one listener says, I'm just not doing it. I'm bored by it. I'm in a committed relationship and it got boring a long time ago. Stopped. Another contributor on Instagram says, great and better in your 50s. So there we are. You cannot generalise, you just don't know. But I'm going to read some emails now. These are a good illustration of the sorts of things that have come in to everybody listening. So, anonymous.

My 40s have been the most disappointing decade of my sex life since it began at the age of 17. At 48, I have as much sex drive as ever, but my husband's has all but completely disappeared. And another email on similar lines from a listener who says, My partner and I don't have sex. It depleted down to once or twice a year, then nothing for the last four years. He doesn't want sex anymore due to a lack of confidence.

He lost his job and our relationship wasn't the best due to my impatience with him being unemployed for three years there we go two illustrations this is where real life intervenes with your sex life frankly so Janet what would you say about that it's difficult to say what I suppose the first thing I would want to say to those listeners is sex is not compulsory there's lots of other other things. I know we're here to talk about good sex, but there's lots of other things in a relationship that are as important. And I'd hand over to Kate in terms of talking about communication, intimacy, the other aspects of that. And then, of course, medically speaking, the other side of that is sex is good for you. Right. So there are two sides to it. You don't need to be doing it, but you might feel better if you are. On the other hand, the assumption, and it's almost the seaside postcard thing, that men always want it, women are reluctant, men are always up for it, men aren't always, because they have a string of challenges in later life, as do women.

So, Kate, what would you add to that so yes i'm glad you're talking about this because there's plenty of women who are longing for their talking about heterosexual relationships or or well we'll talk about gay relationships i promise yeah um yeah so there's plenty of women longing for their partners and their their partners have got stressed overwhelmed or shut down and so it's beginning to realize that sex is not in a vacuum. Sex is part of a whole picture. And can you, when people often first got together, they sent nice messages, they wooed each other, they went on dates, they touched each other regularly, looked at each other regularly. And people forget about this, but they get busy with jobs and careers in their 40s,

children, all kinds of things, even ill health, even if somebody's become menopausal. Things change. So although it might seem he's completely shut down, has she got too invested in work? Has she also, like one of your listeners, she said that she got a bit sharp with her husband who was unemployed. So that's not a very sexy place, but you can.

But that's real life, isn't it? People are out of work. It totally is. You can reignite little by little by doing the things you would have done when you first got together. So starting to be sweeter, nicer, creating nice experiences, dating, you know, things like planning, being in bed for a morning, not to pressurise in sex, but just to snuggle and cuddle without pressure. And also just want to say there's a lot of help out there. I'm from an organisation called COSRT, which is the organisation for sex therapists and relationship therapists in this country. So you can get a lot of help. There's also charities for people who haven't got money, marriage care and relate to lower rate help.

So there's a lot of help out there for ways to begin to restart things if things have gone and you want it back. Samantha, what would you say about making that connection again when it's the man who is reluctant to have sex? I would highlight, I mean, I own a sex toy company, Joji Vine, and actually frequently our callers, they're women, call in to actually buy a sex toy

because their partner has maybe a health issue that's causing erectile dysfunction, so they're not actually having sex. But also that their partner is experiencing low libido and they still want to remain intimate with a partner, they still want to enjoy pleasure. But for me, it's actually those little steps like Kate said I always say take the focus off any penetrative sex if that's the sex that you're having and actually start playing with each other

massage intimate touch talking to each other having that cuddle in bed you know just enjoying even things like you know mutual masturbation that's really really important and actually taking that pressure off each other that actually sounds sorry to interrupt but that actually sounds more intimate in a way and actually possibly might be even more difficult to attempt for some people but it's taking those small steps that really count people women often say to me i hadn't really thought about that i always just think about penetration and you know i really just don't feel like it all the men feel like that because actually they may have an erectile problem they need to seek medical help for that um and actually

you know so basically it's but communication is key and this is this is what kate has actually said it's most important that actually couples do talk to each other rather than just switching off because there are things you can actually do and there is help out there do you think we are still stuck though in a bit of a time walk warp in our assumption that men are always capable and always up for it i i personally do obviously i advise an awful lot of women who've had gynecological issues and sexual health issues menopausal issues um and actually a lot of those women are phoning out we have a conversation they're buying a sex toy to help them maybe overcome a sexual health issue um or they're just buying one and you discover that the partner has got a problem and they won't seek medical advice and actually these women

want to enjoy sex and basically it is their partner and I do think it is very very outdated view there's a lot of women I'm in my 50s I've written about why my sex life was just brilliant in my 40s I try it was transformed because my 20s and 30s weren't very good and why I've written about why and this is the thing that I actually tell women that you know you can actually make changes in your in your sex life but it's often men you know actually having problems themselves. I just want to play a clip this is a listener called Kate now her marriage ended earlier this year but as you're about to hear she is not despondent. A few months ago, almost to the day, my husband left.

Family friend, he went off and I thought my life was going to fall to pieces and it did temporarily. It got very dark and then because of the way I am, I'm very proactive in all sorts of areas of my life, I phoned my very dear friend who I've known since I was 16 and we had a lovely weekend together in all ways possible and it really served me well because I could then realize that I could be desired, touched, looked at and feel like a woman I guess and then I met someone else and it's been incredible it's it's been the most exciting

sex I've ever had and things are moving on really well I guess one thing is because of Forty he's a bit older he has no children it's a funny situation to be in it's a funny question to ask oneself as to whether to go down that route again. So I'm not sure at this point, but life has changed for the better and I'm really, really excited. Right, there's Kate. I don't think that's her real name and her marriage is over,

but she's having a terrific time. So I suppose if I was going to be cynical, and I am, Kate, I'd just suggest that the partner's changed. There is a novelty factor now and that isn't the same as trying to conjure up some magic when you've been together 35 years. It is a different situation.

Obviously, your body responds to new situations and new partner. And they'll be in that wooing phase of dating and wooing and doing exciting new things, which is erotic. It is exciting. And the first six months to two years, there is a lot of hormones that come in a relationship, which is like, we call it Eros energy, where it's this rushing. And of course, like you said, once that rush is gone, then you're faced with your partner in emotionally focused therapy, they call it the beginning, early 20s sex might be called sealed off sex, where it's like you imagine you're in Hollywood, and you just go for each other. Then there's solace sex, where

people are worried about, am I getting it right for them? Am I am I doing this right? where it's like you imagine you're in Hollywood and you just go for each other then there's solace sex where people are worried about am I getting it right for them am I am I doing this right and it's for the other and the idea potentially and of course it doesn't work for everybody but that somebody might know themselves a little bit more and maybe this lady Kate is having a lovely fun time is synchrony sex when you've got a sense of your own sexuality you have a sense of your own what you want and what you might enjoy giving to another and you kind of come together in a dance there's a dance of sexuality and sensuality which is very very good fun and of course people know each other and know themselves a little more in their 40s yes i mean i want to really be positive if we

possibly can here's another positive email. After having thought to myself that I'd be relieved never to have sex again if given the choice, when in the last few years of a long marriage I've had the most brilliant year ever on Tinder, I'm 46 now. I'm having the opportunity to learn how to ask for what I want from a man and not feel that I must

always owe or reciprocate and bargain for pleasure okay um what about that Samantha um I think that's brilliant you can't see me now but I've got a big smile on my face because we have a lot of these conversations at Jojo Vine and I just think it's brilliant as well it's actually you know for me it was actually discovering what works for me and only a few years ago I discovered my g-spot through using one of our sex toys you know and actually I've been married for 22 years with my husband for 28, but I had never found it. And actually, you know, it's actually working out what works for you. I have a history of vaginismus, so that was painful sex caused by poor lubricants in my 20s and 30s

that destroyed my vagina health and our sex life. For me, what transformed my sex life was finding an organic lubricant that didn't contain irritating ingredients. Okay, look, can I just put that point to janet that sounds horrendous i think it's it's there's no right or wrong in this and i think it is a reality i meant what samantha had to go yeah yeah i'm i'm thinking very much about kate and the reality of life for her and how good and exciting it can be to be in a new relationship but how and thinking about what Samantha was saying it's so important to look after yourself so there's lots of reasons for painful sex some of which may be to do with how the sex actually is some of which

are physical and of course Sam talks about that being in her 20s and 30s but as you get into your 40s and towards the get into your 40s and towards the end of the 40s there can be physical reasons for that as well some women are coming towards the menopause some women may need some hormone health there but I feel forgive me I feel like I really need to come back to Kate for a moment because when you've been in a relationship for a long time it's easy to forget about things like the risks of pregnancy and the risks of infection. And you can get pregnant in your mid-40s. You absolutely can. I think we talk a lot about fertility reducing as you go through your 30s

and into your 40s, and that's important. But that can sometimes give the impression that you can't get pregnant. And you'll certainly get an STI. You absolutely can. And we know that women are overrepresented in the group of people who have their HIV diagnosed late because we don't perceive a risk for ourselves. So it is important to talk to a healthcare professional about contraception, what's available, what fits into your lifestyle. There's lots of safe methods of contraception for women in their 40s.

But then you do also need to think about the risk of infection. Think about using condoms. Think about having a new and exciting time, but caring for yourself and keeping yourself safe while you do it. I want to bring in more listeners. I won't mention this man's name, but I just want people to hear that we've had this. An uncomfortable truth is that the reason many men go off sex in their 40s and 50s

is that they're simply no longer sexually attracted to their wives. Women generally become less sexually attractive once they're past childbearing age. And this is just a sad fact of life. OK, let's put him on the floor. Susie says, had the best sex of my life with my first female partner at the age of 41. Beautiful memories. I'm sorry, but she has died now. I'm sorry to hear that.

But we were together for 30 years. Just try it, says this listener. So, well, there we are. I mean, why not? OK, go on. So with the first, with the man. Well, I think we can probably discount him. Let's talk about um

going late life lesbianism as i think as i think it is well the thing about we live in a homophobic society and so um it's quite common for people uh later on to really allow themselves to feel who they might be really attracted to and then in their 40s potentially if they if they feel they can allowing themselves to fulfill their wishes and their dreams and so there there are there are many people of all genders and sexes who allow themselves to do things much later in life and then feel that freedom that openness their sexuality it takes quite a lot of courage uh in our society even though there are freedoms today it takes a lot of courage to really acknowledge your desires and your needs and your wants and it can be amazing for people to do that samantha would you say about that

no i completely agree in the work that i do i do come across a lot of women who've actually almost they've been married for 30 years to a man and then they've actually met a female partner or you know a lot of women who actually are bisexual you know so they're actually exploring different aspects of their sexuality and they're enjoying themselves as well and i also think there's maybe there's a thing sometimes when people have actually been maybe in not pleasant relationships they might turn to a female partner for a bit of safety too but also you know women we've got the same body so we really know what we're doing you know women playing together will focus on both women enjoying pleasure rather than the end thing of a man having his orgasm. And then a woman might be struggling to orgasm.

So I think there's a lot more, obviously, play within that sort of relationship as well. But it's a common thing that I actually hear about. And I was perhaps too dismissive of that email from our male listener earlier. That view that is out there, that's prevalent, that women off by that. And actually, it's talking to your partner with the menopause. We've had a lot of focus on menopause, certainly this year. You've covered it. I work with a lot of menopause experts. And actually, that's the most important thing that you don't need to give up on your sex life. But unfortunately, society views us as these women, you know, we're no longer childbearing.

But quite frankly, there's an awful lot of younger men out there who want to date older women because we know what we're doing. And actually, you know, rather than a younger woman who may be not as experienced so you know we just have to keep constantly saying you know in society in the media saying you know please stop viewing older women in this way because let's face it plenty of women who you know look fabulous and their partner basically has let himself go and that is an issue because obviously an unhealthy lifestyle can actually impact on his erectile function um i know if he's overweight if he's let himself go and that is an issue because obviously an unhealthy lifestyle can actually impact on his erectile function um i know if he's overweight if he's not eating healthily if he's not exercising smoking drinking too much you know those all impact upon your your sexual function so you know again i think it's a very archaic view i want to read another email and i think this is

quite typical actually i've been married for 21 years, I've got three teenage boys, I've juggled full-time work and I've got a big home and garden to maintain. My issue is that I find as a woman maintaining a healthy positive physical sex life with my husband is one of the biggest stresses in my life, if not the biggest. Talking to other women at a similar stage, men do seem to want, need and demand regular sex. And they can become agitated and sometimes nasty if they don't get it. So there we are. Here is the flip side to where we started the conversation. You're nodding, Kate. It's true, isn't it?

Yes, it can be stressful for some women if they feel like it's another job on the list. Yes, exactly. And just want to say there is help out there. One of the roles of a couple counsellor is to create a more equal space. Can you go to a couples counsellor on your own? You definitely can. Of course you can. Yes. And you can talk about it. Of course you can. You can you can go on your own. And if your partner might come in, they can come in. But yes, you can go on your own. You can you can you can do a lot on your own.

In fact, I wanted to refer back to your guy who's disappointed with not being attracted to women. There's a point, the potential of this growth in sexuality is that people start to get to know themselves in a deep way and they have something to offer someone else and then grow something different. And it's not the same as the Hollywood sex early on where you're just going for someone for how they look. You're two bodies experiencing whole dimensions.

And so it's not to say that people don't think that, oh, I just don't like you anymore. I would wonder, you know, is there an accessibility between you? Is there a responsiveness? Are you engaged? How do you feel? How do you feel about your own own how does he feel about his own sexuality his own sexual journey but yes in terms of your the woman who's feeling very pressurized that can happen a lot yeah and of course as as we know people some women would engage in painful sex and and maybe not even mention it and it might have been not painful before but as as they get older they might engage in painful sex now that couple can transform if they were willing they really can because i think a lot of people will feel that that's where the journey might have to end but you're saying absolutely

not absolutely not thank you because it can be all kinds of different sex doesn't have to be penis and vagina sex no we tend to get stuck in that particular pattern. I guess many people have that idea as being the only route. Yeah. Kate McKenzie, who is a psychosexual therapist and a couples counsellor. We had Janet Barter, a consultant in sexual and reproductive health at the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare. And Samantha Evans, former nurse, sexual health and pleasure expert, who were all on Woman's Hour discussing sex in your 40s. Now, interesting. Let's go to some of these emails here. David, I just want to say, says David, that the man who commented on women being less attractive after their childbearing years are over is so wrong. I'm attracted to many older women, in their 60s even, and if the man finds

the woman he once loved less attractive I suggest he's not doing all he can to keep the spark. David, who's very much one of us. Thank you for that email of support. Now, Nikki, good to hear you tackling the myth

and stereotype of the middle-aged woman's lack of sex drive. We are more than just our sex drive, of course, but this hear you tackling the myth and stereotype of the middle-aged woman's lack of sex drive. We are more than just our sex drive, of course, but this is importantly challenging the lie of the sex-starved man and the cruel withholding female partner. And this is an email from Joe. Finally divorced last year at the age of 47 and I've met a man with whom I have the most wonderful sex life again. My ex had become addicted to porn through most of our marriage and eventually shut down to me, preferring the PC to reality. I was left feeling extremely lonely, despite my best efforts and counselling. I just kept myself busy with work and children for 20 years.

I so wish I'd left earlier. Anonymous. I'm having the best sex of my life in my 40s, divorced in my early 40s after a long 20 year marriage and three children. I discovered dating apps and that sex could be much better and sometimes worse with other people. You have to do it. So enjoy it. We don't have to do it. Well, we don't. You don't have to do it anyway. So even if you don't fancy it, make the effort. You might surprise yourself. I firmly believe that it's women who can get bored in long term monogamous relationships. We need a bit more spice and variety. I always had the best sex when on holiday with my ex-husband. I do believe women strongly crave novelty. Matt says, I'm a guy in my late 40s. My wife is 60. We've been together 22 years, and we still get down to it at least twice a week. Postmenopause sex is great. There are no worries about kiddies. Yes, although Janet was very keen, and it's quite important to point out,

that you can, a woman can get pregnant in her 40s. My sister was one of those women. I often reference this, but she was 44 and he was a very happy surprise. But now he's nearly 10 and it can be a little exhausting. And also, of course, STIs are still a risk at whatever age you are. This is from an anonymous listener who says, listening to your conversation this morning, I want to contribute from a male perspective. My wife and I have been together for 25 years, married for 20, and we're both in our late 40s. We haven't had penetrative sex for five years

and now have the most amazing sex, which is very intimate and has brought us closer together than ever. Andy, oh yeah, we're back to where we started with our first email from Nikki. Andy says, in response to the man who was so disrespectful to women past childbearing age, perhaps he should consider how attractive he looks to younger females. I'm a man, I turned 51 yesterday. My partner turned 49 two days before. I've had great sex all my life, but it's never been better than it is now. I've always had a thing about older women for the reasons your female contributor mentioned.

Well, actually, your partner is younger than you because she's 49 and you're 51. But anyway, I simply couldn't envisage going with a younger woman now. Sexual attraction is as much about the look in one's eyes, the tone in your voice, the way you walk, so many more things than just the body. It's also about experience and about new experiences. My body is ageing as fast as my partner's, but staying fit and staying interested in her reminds me every day how sexy she is and how much I want her. I'm looking forward to the next 10 years at least, says Andy. Rupert says my partner's 48, had a very early menopause. On proper HRT, she enjoys the best sex ever.

Thank you, Rupert. That's what she said to you, Rupert. No, she's right. I mean, she's right. Who would doubt it? No, this is not as positive. Worst decade for me for sex, my 40s. I was climbing the career ladder.

I was successful. I was dealing with teens. And I'd climb into bed at night and I just wanted to sleep. My husband did try to talk to me about it, but I've got to admit, I just wasn't listening. I'm now in my 50s and we were lucky to retire early. Well, what a difference. We can now indulge ourselves at any time of the day. And I'm sometimes the one initiating sex. Yes, he is surprised. And the listener concludes, I cannot wait to be 60. Great. I think we'll end there because that's just cheerful. So let's let's stop there. It's

been a long, gruelling week for all of us. Woman's Hour is not back tomorrow, so there's no weekend podcast, I'm afraid, of the highlights of the week. But you can, of course, listen to every single programme we've done this week via BBC Sounds. We are back live on Monday morning, two minutes past ten. And we can promise you more leaders interviews as we head towards December the 12th and the general election. Thank you very much for listening today. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World

Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.