Woman's Hour - Nicola Sturgeon resignation; Sharon Rose plays Sylvia Pankhurst; The power of sport; Femicide in Europe

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

As Scotland’s First Minister announces her resignation after nearly a decade in the job we consider her legacy, the reasons for and the timing of her decision to go and consider who might take over with the Scotsman’s Political Editor Alistair Grant and journalist Ruth Wishart.The musical Sylvia has just opened at the Old Vic celebrating the life of Sylvia Pankhurst – feminist, activist, pacifist, socialist, rebel who was at the heart of the Suffragette movement, with her sister Christabel and mother Emmeline. Actor, singer and musical theatre performer Sharon Rose who plays this lesser-known Pankhurst discusses her role.Woman's Hour is in the process of putting together our Power List for 2023 - this year focussed on finding 30 of the most powerful women in sport. But what about the power of sport itself? Hayley Compton and Jessica Morgan who say sport got them through very difficult times in their lives explain why.What is Europe doing to tackle the issue of femicide? Since the start of 2023, there has been a wave of news coverage in Europe on violence against women, and specifically, femicide, the act of killing a woman because she is a woman. The Spanish government has called its second emergency meeting of domestic violence experts after the murder of six women and a young girl since the start of January. And in France, 18 women have been murdered this year, according to the organisation ‘Femicide by a partner or ex partner’. This is despite both countries having introduced measures to fight against gender based violence. Mélina Huet, a journalist at the French news channel LCI and director of the documentary on femicides ‘Protect the Living, Honour the Dead’ and Susana Pavlou, the director of the Mediterranean Institute of Gender Studies join Anita to discuss.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Alistair Grant Interviewed Guest: Ruth Wishart Interviewed Guest: Sharon Rose Interviewed Guest: Hayley Compton Interviewed Guest: Jessica Morgan Interviewed Guest: Melina Huet Interviewed Guest: Susana Pavlou

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. The power of sport. Have you felt it? Well, two of my guests on the programme today absolutely have. Hayley Compton discovered playing rugby with a special group of women helped her switch off her brain from the grief of losing her baby. And Jessica Morgan really struggled with her

mental health after a sexual assault until her dad suggested they go for a run together. They'll both be joining me later to tell me their stories. But this morning, I want to hear from you as well. Has sport or any kind of physical activity helped you cope when life has got tough? It can be anything from finding camaraderie in a team sport, going out for a walk, even with a friend. Or maybe like me, you love the feeling of going for a long, lonely run to clear the cobwebs. Although these days I'm joined by my dog, who adds a special joy. Plus, she gives me an excuse to stop every now and then when she's distracted en route. I would love to hear from you this morning,

especially if it's the last thing you've wanted to do, get up and do some exercise. Have you found going for a walk or a dip or a workout, whatever your level, has changed your frame of mind? I've also discovered a love for kickboxing recently and punching a bag for an hour does me the world of good. Highly recommend it so do get in touch in the usual ways you can text me 84844 you can email via the website or you can

whatsapp or leave a voice note if you haven't already done so save this number in your phones under woman's hour it's 03700 100444 ellen thompson's been in touch already she says i started running four years ago after surgery for early breast cancer, both to help regain my confidence and raise funds for a centre where I'd got much needed support. She says, I'm still running with a marathon planned in May. Go girl. It helps keep my stress levels in check when things get too much. So how about you?

How has sport or any kind of physical activity helped you when life has thrown you a curveball? Do get in touch. That text number once again, 84844. Also on the programme, I'll be joined by a star of the future, Sharon Rose, currently playing Sylvia in the brilliant new musical about suffragette Sylvia Pankhurst, daughter of Emmeline, and Emmeline is played by Beverly Knight. I'll be talking to Sharon Rose, who stars as Sylvia, a little bit later in the programme. That text number once again, 84844.

But first, Nicola Sturgeon's shock announcement that she intends to stand down as First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party is still top of the news today, and with good reason. She's the first female and longest serving First Minister since the creation of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 and will undoubtedly leave a huge hole in the fabric of the nationalist movement but her resignation speech highlighted the pressures on female leaders and the toll the job takes on the individual. These jobs are a privilege but they are also rightly hard and especially in the case of First Minister relentlessly so. Now to be clear

I'm not expecting violins here but I am a human being as well as a politician. When I entered government in 2007 my niece and youngest nephew were babies just months old. As I stepped down they are about to celebrate their 17th birthdays. fy nes a'r neffi anifeiliaid oedd yn beibiau, dim ond mis oed. Wrth fynd i lawr, maen nhw'n ymwneud â chrefio eu hirfyrddiad 17. Nawr y byddaf yn meddwl amdano, dyna'r amser yw bod yn rhyfeddol

wrth y meddwl am eich anni sy'n cael mwy o amser arnoch. Fy mwyafrwydd yw hyn, roedd rhoi'r holl beth o'ch hun i'r swydd hwn yn unig ffordd i'w wneud. Mae'r wlad yn ei ddangos, ond mae hynny'n gallu cael ei wneud gan unrhyw un am hynny'n hir. I mi, mae'n anodd i'w gwneud am ddwy hir. Nid yw'r Prif Weinidog ar ddydd, yn enwedig yn y diwrnod hwn, ac mae'n debyg bod dim prifysgoliaeth ynod y dydd. Felly, mae'n anodd i'r rhai, er mwyn mynd am ymdrin â'u ffrindiau neu'r ffordd yma, i fyny i'r ffordd,

i fyny i'r ffordd. Mae'r ffordd a'r ffordd o ymddiriedolaeth gwleidyddol yn golygu bod yna gynhyrch yn fwy. Mae'n ddewis i mi, mae'n brwtaliadol i'r bywyd fel gwleidydd yn hynny na dros flynyddoedd wedi mynd. Yn ymlaen,

ac mewn gwirionedd, am ddwy hir o amser, heb ei fod yn ddangos, mae'n mynd i'w ddwyllio politician than in years gone by. All in all, and actually for a long time without it being apparent, it takes its toll on you and on those around you. So what have her great achievements been? And what does her resignation say about being a high profile woman in politics? Well, I'm joined by Ruth Wishart, who writes for The National on Sunday, Alistair Grant, political editor at The Scotsman, and Rosie Campbell, professor of politics and director of the Global Institute of Women's Leadership at King's College London.

Welcome to all of you. Ruth and Alistair, I looked at your tweets when the news broke yesterday. Alistair, lovely level of detail. You're on your way to have your car serviced. And Ruth, you said, wow and double wow. Were you surprised at the timing? I was absolutely shocked, but then I don't think I was alone in that regard.

I mean, all I mean, a lot of seasoned commentators were absolutely shocked when the news broke early yesterday morning. However, it has to be said that a number of certainly my male compatriots have been predicting that Nicola Sturgeon would leave for some months now. And I suppose they'll feel vindicated but for myself it was a total shock and I actually think you talked about you know women in politics I think she's done an absolutely fabulous job as a first minister and I don't agree with her about everything nobody does but I think as a role model she's been absolutely first rate. Alistair did you predict it she said that two weeks ago ago there was plenty left in the tank, but there were hints, weren't there?

Yeah, I mean, it took me by complete surprise as well in terms of the timing yesterday. But I think it's definitely true to say that it was kind of widely known that she had an eye on the exit, that she was maybe thinking about her life after politics. She'd made some comments at the Edinburgh Fringe, actually, in the summer, where she was talking about life after politics. And I think even said that she was perhaps considering fostering children.

She'd made comments more recently about writing her memoirs. But you're right, I think just a matter of weeks ago, actually, on the Laura Koonsberg show on the BBC, she was talking about still believing that she would lead Scotland to independence and having plenty of fuel left in the tank. It turns out she was actually running a lot lower in fuel than I think anyone outside of her close political circle realised. But it's certainly true that there's been a lot of controversies, a lot of pressure on the Scottish government over recent months around things like education policy, but also the kind of gender row and the kind of trans row we've been having in Scotland, particularly over the last couple of weeks with trans prisoners in the case

of Isla Bryce and the double rapist that was initially moved to Cornton Vale Women's Prison. So there were a lot of pressures kind of bubbling in the background, but I understand that there were conversations going on with those closest to Nicola Sturgeon over the last few months. This wasn't something that, you know, was made, a decision that was made at the last minute. Rosie, I'm going to bring you in here. Now, many have remarked on the honesty and humility of her speech, and they've been drawing comparisons with Jacinda Ardern, the New Zealand Prime Minister who recently resigned.

What do you feel her resignation speech said about the pressures, particularly on female leaders? I have to say, i feel really sad i i think um nicola sturgeon and jacinda adern brought a kind of empathetic approach to politics and a sensible um the grown-ups in the room moderate compromises to some extent um and i think that obviously um nicola mentioned brutality and although although Jacinda Ardern didn't say herself, actually her colleagues talked about the level of abuse and threats that she had received. I know that Nicola Sturgeon has received horrific abuse online

and rape threats and so on. And in fact, that is symptomatic of what's happening in our politics, that women experience this kind of intimidation of abuse more than men do. And it's designed to push women out. And I'm incredibly saddened that it might be working. Alistair, do you think the level of abuses that she's experienced, do you think that has been a factor? I think there definitely seems to be an element of her

simply getting sick of the job in some ways. She definitely seemed tired, maybe a little bit jaded as well. She's obviously been in the role for eight years, Scotland's longest serving First Minister. It's no small feat. And I think if you look at particularly that gender debate, the amount of abuse on both sides of that debate, it probably was quite difficult to deal with. I think it's definitely true that female politicians get a level and a type of abuse that male politicians simply don't get. But I suppose the wider point is that politics is a dirty game in some sense,

that there is an element of rough and tumble to it. And it's probably fair to say as well that Nicola Sturgeon was no stranger to that herself. She never shied away from a fight. She was always quite happy to sling criticisms at her opponents. That's just the nature of politics. But like she said in her speech, politicians are also human beings. And I think we do need to accept that that does have a toll. Ruth, do you think being a woman is relevant? I do, actually, and I'm quite anxious. I was interested in what Rosie said about Jacinda Ardern, because I think it would be a great mistake to assume that women can't cope with life at the top of politics. I mean, they both were progressive women in their

own way. They both were empathetic women in their own way. And also, I think it's quite emblematic that they were able to both stand down for highly personal reasons, perhaps, but after a successful career in politics, they were both standing down at a time of their choosing. And that's really quite unusual in politics to be able to go when you want to go at your own time and in your own way. So I've got a lot of respect for them. And I venture to suggest to Alice, I would probably disagree. I venture to suggest that perhaps male egos in politics are a little more fragile than female ones. Rosie, the Telegraph this morning has a headline saying that bloody woman going on to say that used to mean Thatcher.

Now it means Sturgeon. What do you make of that comparison? Oh, I'm just disgusted. I think to use the phrase that bloody woman is absolutely unacceptable. And, you know, they both happen to be women with quite different politics. You know, we wouldn't compare two men. Although Sturgeon's motivation to go into politics was That know we wouldn't compare two men although apparently she um sturgeon's motivation to go into politics was thatcher wasn't it well we need role models but um we didn't we haven't had as many women in politics but to compare the two of them to me seems we just wouldn't do that with men from two different sides of the spectrum and of course

we're talking about very resilient politician here and we do know that politics can be a dirty game but what has changed over the last 10 15 years is that now women politicians routinely are subjected to rape threats. And that isn't about the dirty game of politics. That is unacceptable in every way. And we've got to do something about it. Ruth, you're not a member of the SNP or a political party, but you are a strong supporter of Scottish independence. You've described Nicola as an outstanding politician and whatever you think of her politics, she is a great communicator. Why? Well, I mean, I think it's undoubted that she's a great communicator because I mean,

I had examined her predecessor who could hardly be described as her greatest fan after their rather extraordinary falling out. He said yesterday that she was a great communicator. And I think across the board, people have remarked on her ability to convey messages. And that was never more evident than during the pandemic, because I think with the best world in the world, you could call the number 10 briefings during the pandemic shambolic, whereas Nicola Sturgeon stood at the podium every day and gave a kind of no-frills, facts-based indication of where we stood and what the statistics were. And I think she did that really, really well. And a lot of people, I know a lot of people, especially a lot

of elderly women, tuned in every day specifically for that briefing because they were fearful, they were locked down down and they wanted to know what was happening in their country and what was happening in their health service. And Nicola Sturgeon did that brilliantly. Now I've got lots of difficulties with a lot of Nicola's situations like although I'm in favour of trans rights being modified and made more, you know, more sensitive in every way, I'm not in favour of starting it at 16 and I'm not in favour of people only having to live in their acquired gender for just three months

rather than the previous two years. But, you know, these are relatively speaking small quibbles. Do you not think they were factors in her resignation? Well, she said not yesterday. She said short-term issues were not a factor in her resignation, and I choose to believe that. But I do think there's a cumulative effect of hostility, and there was a huge amount of hostility in the media.

As you say, I write for the Sunday National. That's the only paper in Scotland which is not routinely critical of the Scottish government, and that's bound to have an effect. And also the 24-7 nature of media is bound to have an effect. And the impact on your personal relationships is bound to have an effect. But I have to say, her husband is the chief executive of the Scottish National Party. And I don't think that's really tenable to have a party leader married to the chief executive of our own party. Rosie, we've talked about how the experience of being a woman in politics is different to men, but also the expectations.

She had to talk, she felt she needed to talk about personal issues like having a miscarriage. And also she discussed the menopause on Loose Women. Do you think she had to be open about these issues? I suppose there are two ways of looking at that, that these issues used to be taboo somewhat and we need to have them as part of our public discourse. And that's what having more women in politics has done. Issues like the menopause and miscarriage are now things that we discuss in our mainstream media. That's fantastic. Of course, sometimes perhaps you remember Theresa May being described not looking like a normal person because she didn't have children. And I think we do have this sense that women should be mothers if they're not they need to explain themselves in a way that that just doesn't apply to men. I think she said that didn't she said I feel like I have to say it for that reason. Alistair what have her greatest achievements been? Well I think if you speak to those around Nicola Sturgeon they would point to

things like the expansion the rollout of free early Sturgeon, they would point to things like the expansion, the rollout of free early, free childcare, sorry. They would point to things like the devolution of social security, the Scottish child payment at the heart of that. They would point to things as well, the Scottish government's record in climate around things like COP26. And also, as Ruth mentioned, her communication during the pandemic, obviously in stark contrast, many would say, to the UK governments. And there's no doubt that she is probably, in fact, is one of the best political communicators in the UK. I think probably in the final analysis, you'd have to say that the SNP exists as a political party to push forward the cause of independence. And I think arguably she

has failed to shift the dial in any meaningful sense in that debate. I think you could say that it was a kind of impossible task in some ways. You've got a UK government that's just simply unwilling to play ball. If you want to have a rerun of 2014, you've got to have UK government negotiating with you in that regard. But that is what the SNP exists for. And I think the baton now passes to someone else to see if they can attempt to push forward that debate in a way that Nicola Sturgeon wasn't able to do. And that's the question now, isn't it? The succession, who is the baton going to be passed on to?

I was amazed to read, Ruth, in a poll yesterday that she has a 95% recognition factor with the public. That's off the scale compared to most politicians. So who, if anyone can hope to fill her shoes in terms of presence, there's only one woman mentioned, Kate Forbes. Can you tell us a bit about her? Well, I've got a great deal of time for Kate Forbes,

although I find her social conservatism a bit irksome because she's a member of the Free Church of Scotland and very much committed to that identity. However, I would say to you that one of the reasons that there's so few people well known in Scottish politics outside of Nicola Sturgeon is because if you've got a big personality like Nicola's and you've been in the spotlight for as long as she has, there's not a lot of room in the stage for anybody else. I think the fact that she's gone backstage might bring a few more people

to the fore. The front runners at the moment appear to be Kate Forbes and Angus Robertson, who is a very shrewd strategist and who was behind a lot of the SNP's election successes. But Kate Forbes has got a big following as well. And crucially, perhaps in politics, got very few enemies. Ruth Wishart, Alistair Grant, Rosie Campbell, thank you very much for joining me this morning.

We will continue to watch this space. Lots of you getting in touch with your stories about the power of sports. Anne says, my husband died suddenly of a heart attack 11 years ago. There was no warning. Our sons were 17 and 15 at the time. Shortly after, I joined a gym and walking group and still enjoy both activities. The key is to find something you may enjoy. It's not just about keeping fit, but also having social contacts.

And someone anonymous has been in touch to say, at the end of the first lockdown, my previously bubbly adult son became extremely ill. I couldn't leave him on his own at all, talk on the phone to others or have visitors round. It was relentless. I started getting up early as it was the only time anyone else was in the house and joined an outdoor workout class at 6 30 a.m that hour saved me for the next two years i still go today 84844 the number to text tell me how sports or any physical activity has helped you through a tricky period in your life now for a real treat the

musical sylvia has just opened at the old vic, celebrating the life of Sylvia Pankhurst, feminist, activist, pacifist, socialist, and here's the best word, rebel, who was at the heart of the suffragette movement with her sister Christabel and mother Emmeline. I saw it on press night on Wednesday. Lost my voice from cheering. It is a brilliant production described as a hip hop musical. It plots the rise of the Pankhurst family against the backdrop of the wider suffragette movement. While actor, singer, a musical theatre performer, all round multi-talented woman, Sharon Rose, plays the lesser known Pankhurst. Sylvia, she joins me now to tell me all about it. I'm going to stand up and continue the standing ovation. It was what the press night was electric. The audience absolutely loved it. We were we leapt out of our seats at the end and we just, we wouldn't sit down. We wouldn't stop clapping for you. How did that feel for you? Wow. It felt, it felt incredible. It was such

a wonderful feeling because, you know, it's quite rare that you get stories about women where women are at the centre. And to get that kind of response is very rare. So it's just so wonderful to be able to tell such an inspirational story and to have people respond like that to it still today, 120 years after. Oh, yes. But they're responding to it for multiple reasons which we will get into before we get into the ins and outs of this particular production who was Sylvia tell us a bit about her. Well Sylvia Pankhurst is like you said she is a pacifist but also mainly a rebel and that's what I loved the most about her is that she fought for women's rights, but not just for women's rights, because at the time, suffrage was not for everyone. So mainly it was men over 30 who had property that were able to vote.

But what Sylvia was fighting for was suffrage for all, which meant not just women over 30 who had property or men over 30 who had property but but all women working women all men all working men specifically during that time because there was so much poverty um and i mean we still see it today but um there was such a huge amount of poverty at the time so she was on the ground really um getting her hands dirty and that and her private life is discussed she had a child with an italian revolutionary Silvio Corio, caused a scandal. She wasn't even married to him and she had a child. And she also had an affair with Keir Hardie, the founder of the Labour Party.

And that's heavily featured in the production. Tell us about that. Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting. You know, most of our heroes don't always live the perfect lives and it's wonderful to be able to tell that part of her story. Yeah, she did have an affair with Keir Hardir Hardy who was the founder of the Labour Party and their love was mostly about his ideals and all the things that he would inspire her to do so the idea about suffrage for all was essentially from Keir Hardy where he sort of asked her the question you know have you thought about these people who are missing in the cracks when it comes to our fight for suffrage? And it just opened up a new avenue for her. So I

think she was mostly inspired by him. And he was best friends with her dad, which is tricky in and of itself. But yeah, I think she was just very attracted to his mind and how incredibly talented he was in, you know, his oratory. He was amazing. Sometimes when you see characters like that and you, you know, talk about these women having children out of wedlock or having an affair with an older man, you think, oh, what a modern woman. But actually, no, she was just, she was a woman of her time.

We just don't hear the stories of these rebel women. Exactly, exactly. You talk about, well, let's not talk about the daddy issues. Let's talk about the mummy issues because the mummy issues feature heavily and her relationship with Emmeline performed by the iconic Beverly Knight. Your voices together are incredible. Don't be alarmed if I'm in the front row every night. Okay. She has a complicated relationship with her mother. Why? Why? Explain why they fell out. I mean, there were a number of reasons. You know, mothers and daughters tend to have a lot of conflicts. But with this mother and daughter duo, it was very interesting.

One of the main reasons was that, like I said, Sylvia believed in suffrage for all. But Emmeline really believed in focusing the message because at that time and even now politically, you only had enough room to get one message out, one main message out. So Emmeline believed, you know, it should just be votes for women and particularly women who had property. And if we got those in first, that would would be fine but Sylvia was not for that she believed absolutely everyone deserved suffrage uh you know the fact that she got a child out of wedlock was a pretty a big thing for Emmeline Pankhurst she just in a way her mother's daughter because she had conviction and she stuck to it right regardless of what her mum was trying to get her to do or trying to impose on her let's talk about the cast i mean you and beverly knight up there together two vocal powerhouses it is incredible to watch but this is a diverse cast portraying this piece of british history

and this is a space these this is a story that has traditionally excluded women of colour explain why it's so important and the experience of having that diversity in this story I mean um one of the most amazing things that I discovered when when doing my research with Sylvia was the work that she did after she worked um for the Women's Social and Political Union and all that she did in East London she went to actually, and worked with Haile Selassie. And one of her final bits of fights was the fight for suffrage for everyone, people of colour. And so I think the writer, Kate Prince, really focused on looking at diversity and why diversity was so important to Sylvia's life in general, because she ended up spending the rest of her life in Ethiopia,

working for the rights of people of colour. So I think it was really important to Sylvia, diversity. And we've got the wonderful Helen Pankhurst, her granddaughter, who's wonderfully co-signed Sylvia's passion for believing in people of colour and being an ally. But I think also when you tell a story through the lens of people coming from different parts of the world, it provides a different perspective, right? It allows you to have a bird's eye view on your heroes and what they were saying, you know, our Winston Churchill is a man of colour. And when you hear your hero

saying those words, you take away that, you know, those, I don't know, rosy-eyed colours that you love so much about your hero. And you actually get to hear the words that they spoke. And it transforms those words. So I think it's very important that we tell this story through the gaze of people from all different creeds and colours. And what was the experience like being in a cast of women from different backgrounds performing a play like this? I just always want to know what the conversations are like when you're in the rehearsal room. Oh, my goodness.

The conversations were so in-depth. I remember the first time we rehearsed the scene where we talk about the day when the women were attacked and beaten by the police, when all the women went towards Parliament and they marched together. And actually what happened was that as they were marching, they were beaten and sexually assaulted by policemen on the street. And, you know, we can sort of see that and we hear that today. And the first time we rehearsed that, everyone in the room cried deeply and we all felt it so deeply because we see it today. There are people striking today. There are people fighting today and our rights to strike are being taken down every single moment.

So it's such a visceral experience for us to be in the room and to be from different backgrounds. Yeah. Oh, it's really interesting that happened because you made that visceral for the audience. I cried in that scene as well because it felt so real and so relevant and so important. And you could see stories of women around the world that are taking place now in that scene. I mean, Iran is a massive example right now. We have to keep fighting here.

And it's five years in the making. So the rehearsals it's five years in the making. So the rehearsals for this five years ago was when Kate Prince was trying it out. So much has happened in the world since then. BLM being a huge moment, the world has changed. It has. It has changed so much. And I remember, you know, sort of being out in the protests for BLM and just feeling the sense of togetherness, the sense of purpose and knowing that we're all doing the right thing when we stand up for what we're worth and know what we're worth and have the audacity to say actually I deserve to be treated better than you have been treating me. I think it sort of unifies us and I think it's really helped

for us to be able to tell the story that all of these things have happened. And, you know, art imitates life. So we're so fortunate to be able to tell the story at this time. Yeah. And it's going to open the story to a whole new generation in a whole new way. It's so brilliantly done. And yes, yes, they're very powerful scenes that moved me to tears. The music is joyful, but also it is very funny. Can we discuss Winston Churchill's mum, please?

I don't want to ruin it for everyone, but there is a moment that it just switches. Go on, you can tell us. I mean, OK, so Jenny Churchill is played by the wonderful Jade Hackett,

who is incredibly talented. She has such amazing comedic timing and the audience adores her because actually Jenny and Winston had a very interesting relationship. I don't know if you've ever seen any pictures of them together, but Jenny Churchill would always sort of whisper ideas and thoughts into Winston Churchill's. Yeah, she was anti-women's suffrage, wasn't she? Yeah, she was very anti-women's suffrage, wasn't she? And what our writer Kate Prince did was she put them all in a room to just have that awkward discussion that every mother and daughter-in-law and son have in their dining room. And it's wonderful. Over a cup of tea. Over a cup of tea.

It's just that in this production, Winston Churchill's mum is Jamaican. She's Jamaican and she's the most Jamaican mum and loud and outspoken. And it's just wonderful. It is also there's a lot of movement. There's brilliant dancing in this. You must have had so much fun. Your moves are tight, by the way, Sharon. You're good up there.

You're great up there. I mean, I really appreciate it. It's a lot of work. I mean, a lot of times some of my cast members are laughing at me at the amount of sweat that's gone down my back. My poor dressers who have to change my shirt every single scene because I'm sweating. You know what? You also sing. You are an amazing singer. You're multi-talented and I wanted to hear a clip of you singing. So we have got a blast of you singing with your group, The Thorns. This is you singing Maroon 5's Maps. We're just going to play a blast.

I mean, amazing. So you sing, you're on stage, you have been in Hamilton, you're on stage with playing the lead in this new musical, you sing with your group The Thorns. You also write? Yes, yeah. I mean, honestly, the writing is just for myself. It's just a bit of healing for myself. But I do write sort of secret little TV shows that I read and just sort of giggle at on my own in my bedroom. So the world is your oyster. We could see you doing all sorts in the future. Where did your love of singing come from? Where did that passion start? That actually came from my mother, Veronica. She is incredibly talented at singing. And actually, my mom and dad met in a band in Zimbabwe. That's where I was born and raised. And they met in a band in Zimbabwe. And my dad just sort of started playing the tambourine just so he could get to know her.

Nice. Smooth. What's dad's name? Godfrey. Godfrey. Smooth. Godfrey. So how old were you when you moved to the UK? I moved here when I was 10, yeah. And I properly sort of, I used to watch BBC News just so I could get the accent down, the really proper RP accent down. And I was like, there's no way I'm going to be embarrassed at school. Well, that's probably why you've got such amazing,

talented acting skills as well, if you've got the ear to do the accents. Sharon, it's been such a pleasure speaking to you. Good luck with everything. Good luck with this. I know it's going to do so well. It's a brilliant production. And come back and talk to us anytime.

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Anita. Thank you. Brilliant. Sharon Rose. Lots of you getting in touch with me about the power of sport. Someone has messaged to say, I was suffering from an eating disorder in my first year of university i'd never done sport properly before but i did a rowing taster session and got hooked being on the river connecting with my body teamwork i

realized i simply could not row and under eat they were totally incompatible sport feels so good to me and it's been integral to healing my relationship with food and my body thank you for your messages keep them coming in 84844 and the reason we're talking about it is because as you know we're putting together our power list for 2023 this year it's focused on finding 30 of the most powerful women in sport but but but what about the power of sport itself and i'm not talking about athletes competing at the highest level we're talking about the quiet power of moving your body getting outside and the strength that it can give to your body um I want to know if you noticed a friend who needed help perhaps you didn't know what to say but going on a walk together helped you connect with them well I'm going to speak

now to two women who know from personal experience the power of sport in their own lives I'm pleased to say I'm joined by Hayley Compton and Jessica Morgan. Welcome to Woman's Hour, both of you. Morning. Morning. Hayley, I'm going to come to you first. I know this all began for you in a really difficult time when you lost your daughter, Liliana, in 2020. She was stillborn. I'm so sorry that happened to you. Thank you. Can you tell me can you tell me what

time what life was like at that time um so I was overdue I was two days overdue and I'd gone to the midwife appointment in the morning to see if they can do a sweep one of those horrible things where they try and get things moving I'm not going to go into too much detail about that. But then I heard my baby's heartbeat that morning and then went home, did the regular things. And the next morning I noticed that she wasn't moving very much. In fact, she wasn't moving at all. And I was doing the regular things to try and get her moving. So drinking a really cold glass of water, like exercising a little bit.

So like just walking around as you can only do when you're incredibly heavily pregnant, you can sort of waddle around. And she was normally quite active. And so we were full on in COVID lockdown. So this was April 2020. And so I called my husband and I said, I'm just going to go in just to get the baby monitored because I haven't felt her move this morning. And luckily he came with me in the car. But when we arrived, I could only go in myself. And they put the Doppler on me and they couldn't hear the baby's heartbeat. And they said, it's all right.

Maybe the baby's just hiding. And then they took me into a side room and they got um another scanner out and there was still no heartbeat and then that was the moment that I rang my husband and I said oh they're just going to take me into a side room and he's a doctor and so at that moment he kind of knew that that was it that our baby had died but I didn't know at this point. Of course so life must have been just completely turned upside down. I mean no one wants to tell your loved ones that everyone's expecting this fantastic moment where you're going to give birth to this baby and all of my family were very excited to make those phone calls and send those messages to tell them that actually the baby had died um and in a lot of stillbirth cases you never

know what the reason is um and in in our case there was um a blockage on her side of the placenta so they found some lesions and that meant that she was that she didn't have any oxygen and she sadly passed away. I'm so sorry. Thank you. But that's how that's how sport and exercise started, because I had this baby bump and I had no baby. So every time that I looked down at my body, I was reminded of the fact that although I'd gone through this pregnancy, I didn't have a baby at the end of it. And so I needed to do something to make my body better. And it's interesting that you should say that like if you spot a friend that needs to go for a walk, that's how it started with me. My friend used to be the captain of this rugby team that she still played for and she said look you know because we're in full-on covid lockdown why don't you

come with me up to training um because we're not doing any contact we're not even picking up rugby balls and it's just fitness because I was never actually supposed to pick up a ball um and that's how it started with me um and what did it do for you what did joining the rugby team do for you well anyone that's going through grief or that has been through grief knows that is absolutely all-consuming it feels like it's suffocating you and um with having a stillborn baby as well you you get have a lot of guilt associated with that as well so although that I had my friends and family around me and everybody was supportive um I needed a break I needed to stop what I was doing and make my brain go somewhere else. And so going to rugby and meeting all of these fantastic women

who must have thought that I was a bit strange because my friend would pick me up and I would cry in the car all the way up until I got on the pitch. And then I get on the pitch and I'd have to like make my focus change from my grief to learning something new where I was running around in in the dark getting covered in mud and and that's what I needed I needed that break to make me feel like I was like that I was normal that I was accepted because the rugby girls always made me feel accepted because when you have a stillborn baby something really strange happens to you in that because people don't want to upset you yeah they kind of don't say anything to you at all so they don't want to upset you by talking to you so they kind of avoid you and so you kind of become

this really frightening person that people avoid. And that's on top of your grief. I'm going to bring Jessica in here because, Jessica, you experienced a sexual assault when you were 19. And it was your dad, I believe, who invited you out for a run that helped start your recovery. Tell us about that run. Hi, Anita. And I just want to say thank you so much for sharing that Hayley but yes it was my dad who invited me running and and to go to the gym essentially at that time to get me out the house I somewhat became a bit of a recluse after my sexual assault it's actually coming up to 10 years now which I can't believe

because I feel like I've had this incredible journey of reclaiming my body through sport and I think that's a big powerful thing because going to the gym with my dad and doing body weights and him encouraging me to get back on the track again because during school I used to enjoy running but you know at school so being an adult it wasn't really you know you don't go to PE when you're 19 or 20 or even 25 so you have to kind of want to do it yourself and it really changed my life I ended up joining running clubs and running marathons which I never thought I could ever do but it really boiled down to really testing what my body, and I mean my body, the body that I own, that someone doesn't take away from me, can do. And I really surprised

myself. And every time I have a low moment, which I might have now that the 10-year mark's coming up, but I'll look back on it and think, wow, look at what I've achieved and what I can do to get myself out of a really depressive stage in my life. It was your dad who got you out and as Hayley mentioned it was a friend who initially got her out to rugby if someone listening or a friend and sister mum anyone who's struggling is asking them out to go out for a walk or a run a good way of getting them out of their own heads? Yeah I think so I think when you're going through something as any kind of trauma or any kind of trauma, I think and I think, Hayley, you might agree it you can get stuck in your head and it can be very isolating, as Hayley said. And sometimes you don't want to talk to other people about it because you're scared of burdening them with your issues and so and it's not always easy to to work out if someone's you know down or

kind of isolating themselves but I think as someone who's been there the relief that you feel when someone says let's let's go let's go for a walk or let's go to the gym and kind of gets you out of your own head that can be an absolute lifeline and for me it has and for Hayley it seems like it has as well and there's so much power in that and there's strength in community at those times too we often as I said isolate ourselves but the community element is what can bring you back from the brink that that is Hayley that's what you were saying surrounding yourself with with a team really worked for you didn didn't it? Yeah, I mean, every kind of patiently explained drill that they did for me or every pat on the back or every word of encouragement, it all means something. And they didn't necessarily know what I

was going through at the time, but they just, you know, took me in their arms physically when we could because after Covid and also just mentally as well. They just like lifted me up and and made me feel like I was part of something like I don't know about anybody else going through grief. But you actually just don't ever think that you're going to feel happiness again. And I remember the moment that I thought, oh, gosh, I'm going to be happiness again. And I remember the moment that I thought, oh gosh, I'm going to be all right, is when we played a rugby tournament and we didn't win, we didn't lose. We sort of came middling. But I remember after that day, I thought,

do you know what? I can feel happiness again. And that was the moment for me where I thought, this is what can make me better. And you said at the beginning, Anita, you said you've just recently discovered kickboxing. Yeah, and I've gone back to it. Used to do it as a kid and now I've gone back.

Love it. But I think that's the thing. Like just humans in general or whether you're going through grief or whether you've gone through something traumatic like Jess, like being able to take out your anger, Well, it works wonders, doesn't it? Like rugby. I mean, we never try and hurt people, but actually like being able to tackle someone,

run at them, tackle them, scream. And that guttural roar, I was just going to say, just let it all out in the elements. There is something about that. Hayley, I've got to mention, you have got another daughter now, Mila. Oh, Mila. Mila. How is she and has she been down to the pitch?

She comes every week. She watches me play all the time. She hasn't got a clue what's going on, but she loves being handed around to the girls and like giving high fives and things like that. Often she sleeps through the first half, which is normally my better half. But I think that what's good with Mila is that although that she will, she's never going to be a replacement for Liliana, is that actually like seeing her develop and seeing her be like meeting these girls and kind of being part of the the fun like when we when we do our presentations at the end of the the games um so like the forward of the match and the back of the match and coach's player when everybody else claps she claps along as well

so she is as much a part of that game as the people on the pitch mom's biggest fan um yeah jessica are you still running i am i am um i'm in abu dhabi so the weather's so much nicer for running um the sun is always shining so there's always an opportunity to get out um i'm in the gym also and i play tennis and how are you i just how are you I'm I'm good yeah I'm really really good I feel like I'm in a place now where I can really enjoy just getting outside and you know being so impressed every day by moving my body and what my body's capable of um but yeah come a long way five marathons in the bag and i just really encourage anyone to just get outside even if it's for 10 minutes um i know that there are some days

where you can't get out of bed or you can't leave the house and it's miserable especially now post pandemic there's lots of people dealing with mental health issues that they possibly never had dealt with prior. And as well as the cost of living crisis. Outsiders free. Go outside. Take a walk. And you'll be so surprised at how great those endorphins are. You'll be bouncing off the walls.

Bouncing off the walls. It's great advice. Hayley and Jessica, your stories. Thank you for sharing them with me. You will have inspired people this morning. Absolutely. Thank you both. Freya says, I discovered spinning after an ankle injury left me unable to play my usual football. The ankle is better, but I still go spinning weekly. It's one of those modern classes with low lighting and loud music. And despite my initial scepticism, it gives me such a high. Now on to our last story. What is Europe doing to tackle the issue of femicide? News coverage across the continent has been highlighting the number of femicides.

That is, that's the killing of women because she is a woman that have taken place since the start of 2023. The Spanish government called its second emergency meeting of domestic violence experts in less than a month after the murder of six women and a young girl in January. And in France, 18 women have been murdered this year, according to the organisation Femicide by a Partner or Ex-Partner. This is despite both countries having introduced measures to fight against gender-based violence. So why, what is and isn't working? Well, I'm joined on the programme by Melina Huot, a journalist at the French newspaper LCI and director of the documentary on femicides, Protect the Living, Honor the Dead, and Susanna Pavlou, director of the Mediterranean Institute of Gender Studies. Welcome to the program, both of you.

Melina, I'm going to come to you first. What's your reaction to the number of women who've been killed in these countries since January? Are you surprised? Well, thank you, Anita, for having me first. Well, as a French person, unfortunately, I'm not really surprised at all by these numbers and by these figures. As you said, we already have had 18 women killed by a partner, a former partner, in 2023. Said differently, it means that more than 18 men

killed their wife or their former female partner. It's one every two or three days, and it fits what we've been experiencing for the past 20 years or so. As for Spain, it's more surprising to me. I was a correspondent in Spain for France 24, a French international news channel for a few years. And they've been tackling this issue. So the end of last year, 2022, saw an appalling increase of domestic violence. That's not my words, it's the prime minister's words. And that resulted in the death of nine women for December alone,

which is incredibly high compared to the figures that we've seen previously in Spain. And what did the Spanish government do about it? What did they decide to do? Well, unlike France, they've been tackling this issue for 20 years now. It all started when a woman called Ana Orantes, who was 60 or so at the time, went on a programme live on television for the first time. She was the first woman ever to talk about

all the hardship that she had been through for years by her ex-husband, under which roof she was living with him despite the divorce. And she was after that, a few days after that, she was killed. She was burned alive in the garden by her ex-husband, and it really shocked an entire nation. So at the beginning of the 2000s and in 2003, precisely, they've started to implement laws that have been tackling gender violence. They were the first ones, the Spanish parliament, to pass, it was the first law in Europe and in the world, I think, to make the gender of the victim an aggravating circumstance in cases of assault and violence and femicide. And they use this word femicide, they've been using it for 20 years now. They've got special courts and they're tackling this issue

quite quickly. I mean, you can have a trial if you've been assaulted or if you've been harassed or within 72 hours and they've got special trained judges for these issues. Susana, the Spanish government have a robust system in place to recognise and deal with the femicide cases after the horrific case that Melina just explained, told us about there, but the numbers are still so high. Why is that? Yes, the numbers are still very high indeed. And I think, though, that we need to look at it across the years since those measures have been put in place. And I think it's worth reminding ourselves that despite this just devastating increase in femicides in 2022 and in the beginning of 2023, it is still the year, 2022 I mean, where we have the lowest number of fatalities due to gender-based violence in the last 19 years. So I think it's important to

keep it in perspective and then look at what is working and what is not. And what isn't working. And I think regarding 2022, it's important to point out that there was prior institutional knowledge of many of those cases, in half of those cases in 2022. So it does point to system failure in effective responses to domestic violence and gender-based violence, because we do know that only 20% of those cases were protection measures, such as protection orders,

restraining orders, that legally are very robust in Spain, only 20% of those cases had protection orders in place. And so we need to look at how often protection orders are being put in force, what monitoring mechanisms there are in order to ensure that they're not broken, but also to look at what do we do about those cases where there is no previous institutional knowledge, where there was no complaint lodged with the police. And for me, I think that is where primary prevention comes in. And I do want to also point to the importance of investing in women's specialist services in those women's organizations and NGOs that provide frontline services to women, because it is more likely that women will turn to them for help and guidance prior to reporting to the police. Melina, I'm going to come to the situation in France now where Macron has named gender equality as a national priority, but it remains one of the countries with the highest femicide rate.

Why is this? You said at the beginning that you're not surprised about the rates in France. Explain what you meant there. No, because what Susanna said is also true in France. It's also awareness campaigns. It's also how the public perceives gender violence and how all the measures are here, basically, more or less. Most of the associations in France say that the law is good. Now we have to implement the law and we have to enforce, for instance, being able as a woman to go put a complaint at a police station without being

considered as the person who's guilty for her own or aggression. And in many aspects, I would say that the problem in France is also cultural. when, for instance, very concrete example, when the MeToo movement broke worldwide, when in so many countries, it was seen as an opportunity to finally speak up about the violence that so many women have endured, whether in the public space or in their private life. Well, so many French people, including women, including artists, very famous French women who have been considered as feminists, who have fought for the right to terminate a pregnancy. They have expressed their concern that we, France, would turn into the US, meaning basically that we wouldn't be able to float the way that we used to.

So explain that. And that's a problem. Explain that for us. Why do you think that was the response in France? But that shocked so many young people. It shocked me as a woman, as a journalist, because again, these women have been fighting for women's rights for so long in the 70s but the way the way they perceive for instance flirting is is a totally different way that some young women will

they have written an editorial in a very famous French newspaper called Le Monde and it was called we defend the freedom to import you which is essential to sexual freedom and says a lot they've said basically rape is a crime, but insistent or clumsy flirting is not a crime, nor is chivalry a matter of aggression. And resistance to change in France is a problem. And I think it has an impact on how we implement the law and how we perceive gender violence in general in France.

Susanna, is the culture of sexism and harassment contributing to the rate of violence against not just women in France, in Spain as well? Yes, I would say that that's the case across Europe. And that's exactly what I agree completely. Systemic change, and I emphasise systemic change, is needed across institutions, but also among society, across the media, education, the judiciary. Because even when the police do proactively respond to cases of gender-based violence, then it's up to the judiciary what kinds of punitive action they're going to take.

And in a number of cases, both in France and Spain, but across also other countries in Europe, we found that the perpetrators had prior convictions, but were released too early. So there is a culture of impunity. And I think that it's very much related to sexism and misogyny across society. I know that a report was recently released in France that showed an increase in sexist attitudes and behaviors. And I think that this is not something particular to France.

I think that we really need to look at what is happening in our societies. Across the whole of Europe. How misogyny and sexism online as well as offline. Recruiting of young men and boys in misogynistic spaces. Yes. Which is scary for me to think of what might happen in the future. And we talk about it a lot on Woman's Hour.

And as you said, it's about systemic change throughout society, not just in France and and Spain but throughout the whole of Europe. I'd like to thank you both for joining me this morning Melina and Susanna and thanks to all of you for your wonderful messages as well. Enjoy the rest of your day. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello I'm John York and I want to tell you about Opening Lines, a new series from BBC Radio 4 in which I'll be looking at books, plays, poems and stories of all kinds that have made a mark and asking, what makes them work? I mean, this stuff is jaw-droppingly shocking.

I'll be asking lots of questions. What's at the heart of the story? How does it achieve its effect? What makes it special? History is usually written by winners, but he wants to give a voice to people who are not usually heard. I'll be hearing from people

who know and love these works. Writers. We do have an orgasm evoked on the page. Dramatists. Biographers. It's worn better as a book about England than it has as a book about sex, I think. And directors too.

In the end, I'll be asking, what makes this work worth reading now? Join me to find out in opening lines from BBC Radio 4 and available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.