Woman's Hour - Nicole Lecky in Superhoe at the Royal Court

Episode Date: February 5, 2019

Sasha Clayton is 24 and lives in Plaistow with her mum, step-dad and little sister. She spends most of her time scrolling through social media alone in her room. Sasha wants to singer - but she needs money to make that dream come true. Superhoe is a new play at the Royal Court Theatre in London exploring Sasha’s life, and the dangers that lie on social media for vulnerable young women. Nicole Lecky is the writer and stars in Superhoe. She discusses the play and all that she learnt whilst putting it together.New research from Carers UK shows that 6% of women have quit their jobs in order to care for a loved one, with a further 5% having reduced their hours. So what can employers do to improve things for carers? And is it fair to expect even small businesses to comply?It’s 50 years since ‘In Place of Strife’, the late Labour politician Barbara Castle’s attempt to reform the trade unions. In an era of powerful unions, who would negotiate over beer and sandwiches at No 10 Downing Street, her plan failed. But within a year she succeeded in driving through the Equal Pay Act and in 1975 she reformed family allowances to “take money out of the husband's pocket on the Friday and put it into the wife's purse on the following Tuesday”. We discuss how Castle fought for union reform, what she learnt from it and her legacy with biographer, Anne Perkins and journalist, Helen Lewis. Lewes FC, the only football club to pay their men and women teams equally, have asked the Football Association for an increase in the Women’s FA Cup prize fund. The FA recognises a significant disparity but say they’re doing what they can to make progress. Sports Writer, Anna Kessel and Charlie Dobres from Lewes Football Club share their thoughts. There is no single 'autism test'. But as diagnosis can lead to your child getting the right support. what do you do if you think that your child is autistic? When can you tell and where can you go for help? Jane speaks to Emma Gill who has a 4-year old daughter who has been diagnosed with autism and Dr Sarah Brook, clinical lead at the National Autistic Society’s Loma Wing. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Madeleine Starr Interviewed Guest: Alan Beazley Interviewed Guest: Anne Perkins Interviewed Guest: Ayesha Hazarika Interviewed Guest: Anna Kessel Interviewed Guest: Charlie Dobres Interviewed Guest: Nicole Lecky Photographer: Helen Murray Interviewed Guest: Emma Gill Interviewed Guest: Dr Sarah Lister Brook

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and you have downloaded The Woman's Hour podcast. It is the 5th of February 2019 in podcast land. And on the pod today, we'll discuss caring and a report from Carers UK. We'll also have a word about the phenomenal Barbara Castle. It's now 50 years since her white paper on trade union reform in place of strife. If you think that sounds dull, you couldn't be more wrong. It's something well worth discussing. And we did so on the podcast today. We also have a chat about the prize money

for women in the FA Cup. Nicole Leckie is on discussing her one woman play, Superho, and what it's like to have an autistic child and when you should get a diagnosis of autism, if indeed that's appropriate, and what that diagnosis might mean. That's all on this podcast, but we start with the story that made the front page of today's Daily Mirror, the headline, 600 a day, quit job to care for loved one.

And this is based on new research from carers uk which shows that six percent of women have stopped working outside the home and five percent have cut back on their hours that compares to four percent of men leaving paid work altogether and three percent cutting back on their hours so we talked to alan beasley from the employers network for equality and inclusion and to sarah who cares for daughter, who's 12 and has had a brain injury. First, here's Madeleine Starr from Carers UK. And I asked Madeleine why she thought more women than men were having to leave work. It's very often the kind of support that women receive or look for outside the workplace as well as in.

We know that more men work full time than women. Is that because the service response to men who are caring is better? Is it that we assume that men are breadwinners and actually need that support to keep them in work? So there are a number of underlying assumptions I think but very often women are more likely in a partnership in a family to be the one who takes the employment hit and we know that women very often take lower paid part-time jobs in order to be able to manage. Yeah now, now, interestingly, Carers UK didn't actually look at the gender breakdown here.

Woman's Hour asked you to, and then you found the figures for us. Yeah. Why didn't you look at this on a gender basis until we asked you to? Well, I think we always do cover the gender basis, but I think for this report, what we really wanted to hit home with was the sheer numbers of people who are juggling work and care. And of course, we know that very, very significant numbers of men are also juggling work and care and are impacted in terms of their paid work.

So it's not that this doesn't affect men. So we've got 2.6 million giving up, 1.6 million are women, but a million are men. So I think we wanted to major on the numbers, you know, 600 people a day giving up, half a million over two years. That difference, though, between the women and the men, it is significant. I know some people will say, well, this has always been the case. Women were not only doing the care, they were expected to do the care, perhaps by parents, perhaps by male siblings, perhaps by male partners. It's interesting, too, you haven't mentioned austerity. The Daily Mirror certainly does in its coverage of this story. Surely that is having an impact on the quality of social care. Yes, and to be fair, we mention austerity an awful lot elsewhere.

So I think, as I said, our job with this report was really to highlight numbers and to get people thinking about it. So there'll be a lot of people, carers out there, juggling work and care, who won't have recognised themselves. This will hit home. There'll be a lot of employers out there who simply haven't been thinking about this but the numbers one in seven in any workplace will make them sit up and pay attention in terms of services of course there are those two sides to the coin and our employer membership forumers for Carers published a report moons ago on care services as a condition for employment, taking very much the stand that was taken with childcare, which is actually if you don't have an infrastructure of care services and vulnerable and go to work.

So, you know, you're really between a rock and a hard place. Let's bring in Alan Beasley then from the Employers Network for Equality and Inclusion. Are employers doing enough? I think all of the evidence would indicate that not enough employers are doing enough. Where employers are taking action on carers, it's typically larger employers. And even within larger employers, I think Carers UK, it's not the norm at all. Yeah, and of course, many people would say, well, it's easier for the bigger employers. Plenty of our listeners own their own companies and have their own small businesses and it's very difficult for them.

It's very difficult. I mean, the evidence provided to the Work and Pensions Committee report on carers last year from the Federation of Small Business indicated that there was a real issue for small employers, particularly if they would be required

in the future to provide paid leave for carers. But the problem's not going to go away, is it? It's not going to go away. We've got an ageing population impacting, therefore, the number of people who need care and the number of older workers who are providing care. So it's not surprising to me that the numbers have gone up. I don't want to give the impression that people are caring because they have to. There are many, many people who will be listening right now

who are caring because they passionately believe it's the right thing to do and of course they are doing a wonderful job we need to acknowledge that um sarah is somebody who cares in her case for her daughter sarah good morning to you good morning um can you tell us a little bit about her and about what you do um yes my daughter suffered a um a rare illness about eight years ago, and she was hospitalised, which meant I had to give up work. She was hospitalised for about three months, and when she came out of hospital, she needed 24-7 care, so I had to give up work to provide that.

There wasn't any alternative to that either. And now I still am in a caring role with my daughter though i do work very part time and that means being i'm basically her case manager i have to there's attending a lot of appointments meetings having to be available for the school um and having to be very much there for her um and that doesn't go away even sort of during the day when she's when she's at school and what about your past work your working life what were you doing well i was a company director originally um and i'd had quite a sort of long career both in statutory sector and also in private um in business um and i had

to sort of give that up and effectively what i've had to do because i'm particularly a parent carer and this is not going to stop is that I no longer have a career and that impacts on every aspect of your life how you feel about yourself how you're able to live the quality of your life I'm sure and of course things like pensions I mean what do you think about all that well I don't have a a pension um i and the the future and particularly at the moment with austerity and the sort of general climate towards um disabled people and their carers is is very very grim and it's something that that actually has had me in tears i've found it absolutely upsetting devastating um worrying about the future both for myself as I get older worrying about the future for my child

about how they're going to cope about finances, about round benefits I mean it is really, it literally keeps me awake at night it's devastating It's easy for people like me to sit here and blither on about how wonderful carers are but you're speaking from the heart there about those sleepless nights

about those moments at 10 to 3 in the morning where i dare say you do think well what's going to become of me yes oh absolutely and what's going to become of my daughter when she's an adult how how is she going to be cared for um who's going to care for her um you know what sort of care will she need um and this sort of feeling that, you know, and I think particularly for parent carers of actual quite hostility towards us. Hostility from whom? I think certainly from central government, to be quite blunt. OK, well, you probably, as I say, you're speaking from the heart. Madeline, what consolation, if any, can you offer to people like Sarah? Well, we are working very hard, aren't we, all of us, to try to get a long-term settlement around social care.

Yeah, well, let's talk about that. The Green Paper, when is that coming out? Who knows? So the word on the block is that it's imminent, but we have been hearing that since last year. And even when that Green Paper comes out, it's looking at a longer term settlement. We need something which works now. I mean, we know how significant the impact of the austerity measures have been on disabled people and their families.

The Social Care Alliance has looked at the figures people like Age UK have looked at the figures and we know how fearful families are about the current state of services and about the future of services and it is something that is constantly ducked by administration after administration Yes, I was going to say this government is not unique

No, this government is not unique. No, this government is not unique. It's in the too hard to do category and always seems to get bumped by something else. And in fact, within this period where we have had no green paper, we've seen an NHS long term plan. And of course, people accept that the NHS, which is, you know, so much, you know, beloved, a bit of a sacred cow in the UK. We're perfectly happy to see that investment go into the NHS, but actually, social care is every bit

as critical. And for as long as we leave it in the lamentable state it is currently, families will have to pick up the tab. Thank you, Madeleine. I know you could go on, and I know that many people listening will want to pick up the tab. Thank you, Madeleine. I know you could go on, and I know that many people listening will want to hear more from you,

and I apologise, but thank you very much. Madeleine Starr from Carers UK. Alan Beasley also heard from the Employers Network for Equality and Inclusion, and Sarah, who spoke so brilliantly about being a carer and, frankly, what it can do to you. Not easy for anybody.

And we'd love to hear from you, of course, if you've got any experience yourself at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter or Instagram. And also, of course, you can contact us via the website. That's bbc.co.uk slash Women's Hour. Now, you may well remember, who could forget Women's Hour's 70th anniversary in 2016. And the Labour politician Barbara Castle was one of the political figures honoured in our list of notable women. Now, she's probably best known by listeners to this programme for her work on equal pay and family allowances. But before those triumphs, and they were triumphs, of course, she had encountered failure. And it's now about 50 years, almost to the day, but not quite, since her attempt to reform the trade unions, which was a white paper, not a green one, but a white paper called In Place of Strife.

Anne Perkins is with us, the journalist and author of Barbara Castle's biography, Red Queen. And Aisha Hazarika is here too, former special advisor to Harriet Harman and Ed Miliband. Anne Perkins, very quickly, In Place of Strife was what? It was an attempt in a very torrid time for industrial relations to introduce the law so that it affected trade union industrial relations conflicts. It was an attempt to try to outlaw unofficial strikes and to insist on ballots before some strikes.

And it introduced, most controversially, financial penalties for unions that were in breach of these obligations. And it very nearly brought down the government. OK, I think people need to hear Barbara Castle speaking. Here she is making a speech back in 1969 to trade union members. And I stand here this morning proudly as a socialist, proud to be on the platform with my Prime Minister Harold Wilson, proud to be among you all. Why do you grumble so much? Because you know it is your government. We always grumble most in our side, our own families. But friends, it is your government. You created it. It's fighting for you. For God's sake, go out and fight for it.

There are politicians these days who can do a good speech, but probably no one can quite reach her standards. All those, firebrand, I suppose, is the word that pops into my mind. But she was much more than that, actually, wasn't she? She was an astonishingly effective minister. When you look at her record, from 64 to 70, and then again from 74 to 76, and the things she achieved from setting up the very first Department for Overseas Aid, then she went to Transport, where she introduced breathalyser, seatbelts, and then to the Department of Employment and Productivity, where she, yes, she had this huge battle over trade union legislation,

but she also set the ball rolling on equal pay. And then later on, she came back and had this astonishing two-year swan song where she futilely endeavoured to exclude pay beds from the NHS. But she also brought in the most extraordinarily successful range of reforms to benefits and to pensions, both of which really transformed the landscape for women and for poorer women in particular. Can you just explain why In Place of Strife was so contentious and was there an element of a small woman, she was a tiny woman actually, wasn't she,

taking on the might of the testosterone-ridden trade unions who had such power? Well, I mean, she was a small and intensely feminine woman in a world which was supremely blokeish. And most of all, in the trade union movement, where they simply didn't expect to see women in any position of authority at all. Although, you know, there was a long and distinguished tradition of women in public service in this country. But she was something that no one had. She brought qualities to it that nobody had seen before.

And her physical stature was part of it, something that she exploited. There are some wonderful photographs of her, you know, peering up at big people like Frank Cousins or Richard Crossman, who were both, you know, tall men. And she loved to pretend to be helpless and then, you know, thwack them between the eyes or worse.

And she always knew her stuff. She worked tirelessly to the point where she exhausted herself. And she always had an argument and she'd always thought it through. I've got one volume of her voluminous diaries, and I think she used these as a kind of way of sorting out her ideas and her thoughts, defending her position, rehearsing, you know, all the things she wished she'd said in that cabinet meeting

or that committee meeting, and how she was going to fight the battle the next day. Now, Ayesha, what's her reputation in the Labour Party now? I know it's difficult to generalise about the Labour Party at the moment, but what would you say? Well, essentially, I think there's quite a generational divide. So when I became a special adviser to Harriet Harman working on women's issues, and I'd been a civil servant beforehand, I think women of that generation, Harriet's generation, Patricia Hewitt, the MPs, the ministers, the adviser, she was undoubtedly an absolute huge heroine in their

mind. And I think the thing that was incredible about her, as Anne said, she just achieved so much. But everything, we only really talk about the equal pay stuff. But actually, one trade unionist I spoke to this morning said, she was incredible, because every brief she got, she sought the opportunity in it and she found the opportunity. She found the way to get something for herself and also for public policy. It was incredibly sort of successful, but she was also difficult. She was complicated. Yes, she was this sort of firebrand. So she wasn't. She used her sort of looks and her femininity and her charm as well but I think a lot of people feel that the in strife episode really sort of tarnished her credentials within the

movement but actually she was trying to do the right thing for the union movement because what a lot of the men in the union and they were very sexist to one union member boss famously said I remember her when she had you know was at was around her father's wearing dirty knickers. And they did sort of see her as a... He said that? Yes, yes. It was a famous kind of... But she...

Yeah. They basically, they thought that this woman, Barbara Castle, was going to destroy the trade union movement. And because they were complacent, they allowed another woman to come in and destroy it. And that was Margaret Thatcher. So I think she could see what was coming down the track. And she was trying to head it off. She was trying to head it off, exactly. OK, that's one interpretation.

I just need people to hear this, because this is such a brilliant illustration of how far we've travelled, no pun intended. This is Barbara Castle in a television interview about drink driving, which she was outlawed, which she was trying to outlaw. This bit of audio, this bit of telly, comes from 1967. You're only a woman. You don't drive. What do you know about it?

Ha! I have a husband who drives. I have a husband who drinks too. He loves a drink. He loves the English pub. So do I. I love the English pub. Our favourite recreation at the weekends is to walk down to our country pub. I reckon I can take five pints and drive better than most people any day of the week. Yes, I know. Famous last words. We've heard that several times. Please have it on their accident records. Well, she dealt with him. Who was that interviewer? If anybody recognises that voice, the fellow is a fabulous driver on five pints. Like an Arlie Piers Morgan. Yes, it could be.

Nobody wouldn't have raised an eyebrow at the time. I mean, Barbara didn't express her horror, did she? No, apparently not. I was alive. This is what makes me feel, sometimes I feel utterly ancient when I realise I was alive when that kind of thing was happening. I was barely aware of it. Can we briefly discuss something about the techniques

she employed to achieve her aims, Anne? Well, I think Aisha put her finger probably on the single most important thing that made her such a successful politician. And that was her ability to see the opportunity whenever she went to a new department. She could see, I mean, of course, it wasn't without sense of her own career, but she had this absolutely undying commitment to socialism in the sense that what she did was socialism in the sort of true labour tradition. And of course, that's why she fell out so catastrophically with the trade union movement, because there's a long history of the labour bit of labour and the intellectual bit of labour being at loggerheads. And that was very much reflected in that standoff. But so seeing the opportunity, working extremely hard, but really taking information and evidence from all different sources. She was different in her two periods in government because she did feel she had lost terribly over in place of strife, although she never let that show. And indeed, she insisted on staying in that job in opposition in to the trade union conference, which was that the Labour left was deserting the Labour government.

And that really profoundly influenced her actions in 74. I wish you could talk more about her because she really was a formidable person and in some ways not easy. She's brilliantly complicated, which makes her even more tantalising as a subject. But anyway, thank you both very much indeed. Anne Perkins, Ayesha Hazarika, your memories of Barbara Castle. We'd love to hear them. You can always tweet or email us. Don't forget, Friday, we're talking about stopping breastfeeding.

How do you do it? If you've done it, what was it like for you? How did your child react? They're not always all that cooperative. That's on Friday's edition of the programme, if you want to get involved in that one. Now, a brief chat about football. Lewis Football Club is the only club to pay their women's team the same as the men's. Now they want the FA to increase the Women's FA Cup Prize Fund. The total for men's teams is over 30 million. For women, it's a quarter of a million. So the FA does make a lot of its for all strategy.

What does this all mean? The FA did say it recognises a significant disparity and they say they're doing what they can to make progress. Well, Charlie Dobrez is from Lewis Football Club. Charlie, what's your stance on this? Well, good morning. Our stance is that we wrote this open letter and we're very careful and clear to be very respectful to the fa um they set up a fantastic separate fa women's group in

the fa and they are doing an awful lot and we've come a long way in the last few years and they've invested 18 million pounds in the game plan for growth so that is very good i think what we're saying though is is is that um you know some people say to us well you know be careful what you're doing though you're trying you're trying to rock the boat. And actually, we're just saying, you're going to need a bigger boat because the opportunity is huge and it's now. And that is our frustration that's coming through.

So we love what the FA is doing. We just think when we look around the world at attendances and so forth, the opportunity is huge. Well, what is the FA doing? Anna, it does go on about it. Anna Kessel, the sports writer, is with us. The FA does have, and it's a genuine

strategy for all, there is no doubt that women are playing football in ever greater numbers. Young girls are starting to play it and they're keeping at it, which is brilliant. But where is it all going wrong? Well, I think where it's going wrong is this kind of acceptance that a 1%,

that women earn 1% of what men earn is okay. Because if you talked about that in any other industry, there'd be outrage. You know, this is worse than space exploration, construction industry, politics, medicine. It's arguably the worst gender pay gap in the world. And yet we just accept it because we say, well, men have huge followings, it's a game that's grown, feeds itself, brings in its own revenue and the women's game doesn't and we don't look at the reasons behind that. The historical reasons? The historical reasons. The FA, who are doing good things now in the last five to ten years,

are the same organisation that banned the women's game for 50 years and then left it out to dry for another 40. Yeah, it was banned in, what was the year it was banned? I should know this. 1921, when 53,000 were going to watch women's football. So it's very popular. Charlie, you know about that, don't you, about women's football being banned? Oh, yes. But I wonder how many members of the general public do. I think they don't. I think that we go and give give uh talks uh wherever we can under our equality fc

banner which is the equal pay banner that we use and i have to say that the one thing that causes an absolute deathly hush jaw-dropping moment in the room is when we explain that women's football was on december the 5th 1921 after a 15 minute meeting and banned by the banned by the then fa and people go no seriously because you know what what? Someone needs to write a play about that or something. Good idea. Yeah. I think while waiting for someone to write a play, because obviously that can take some time,

what we're thinking is the opportunity is right now. And I just wanted to give a little analogy. A lot of the pushback we hear online from men on this is saying, you know, your gates aren't very big, the this and that, the media coverage, the sponsorship. Well, can I just put that? I mean, obviously the gates aren't. I mean, you tell me.

Yeah, but there's an answer to that. Okay, well, go on. Okay, thanks. Okay, and I'll come to it. Although, again, you know, in Spain, Atletico Bilbao play Atletico Madrid in the main men's stadium and get 48,000 the weekend before last. Last, in the weekend before last.

We're just talking about latent demand. But let me just address this specifically. This isn't an argument that says Women's Foot wants to be rewarded for what's happening now. This is an argument that says guys, because it's mostly guys, you're missing a huge investment opportunity. And the best analogy we can think of so far

is that your Coca-Cola is sitting there in Atlanta in the late 70s and 80s and the rest of it. And in 1982, they introduced Diet Coke. Now, Coca-Cola earned almost all of their money that time from Coca-Cola, in the same way they get their money from the men's FA Cup. But Coca-Cola decided, we've got this huge mature product, which is now about as big as it can get. But here's an investment opportunity. If we put money behind Diet Coke, read women's football, look what we can do we can do well look what happened diet coke is now up to the same levels as coke and

sales this is an investment opportunity do you think the fa are going to change and cave in at all because they would say we've made huge progress already what more do you want us to do i think we have to be careful here not to wait for for the numbers you know people say oh well once once enough people are watching women's football, once enough sponsorship are on board, then it will all happen. Look at America. The women's national team are far out more successful than the men, earn more, bring in more, get bigger gate receipts,

smash the record for television viewings, millions. But they earn less than the men. Even though the men went out, you know, a couple of rounds into the World Cup and the women won it. They still earned less. So even when they bring in the money, there's that cultural shift that needs to happen. Really interesting. Thank you very much indeed. That's the sports writer and journalist Anna Kessel and Charlie Dobrez from Lewis Football Club. You're listening to Woman's Hour and Sasha Clayton is the well, she's the centrepiece of a new one-woman play. Sasha is 24 in the play. The play's called Superho.

Sasha lives in East London. She's got a mum, a stepdad and a little sister. And this is a play being performed at the Royal Court Theatre in London. And it's being performed by the person who wrote it, Nicole Leckie. Nicole, welcome. Hello, thank you. So tell us a little bit about the life of Sasha Clayton, who's the star of your show. Yep, so she is a kind of aspiring musician from East London and

she's kind of obsessed with everything social media and hasn't got a job. So her kind of main focus is to just kind of be famous and she has this pretty dysfunctional relationship with her family. You better just describe the family set up because mum... Yes. So the mum has, well, she has a little sister and the mum has remarried. And she kind of feels very left out of this equation. And subsequently she kind of finds her,

I guess she finds solace in kind of other people from quite a young age and then just kind of really, I guess, separates from them really and kind of distances herself. Which actually these days is incredibly easy to do because you can shut your bedroom door. I mean, not that we didn't do it when I was a teenager, but you've got the whole world. And now you can connect online and speak to whoever you want and for the positive and for the negative. And I think that's what I kind of, you know, I'm looking at in the play. So is that your starting point?

Were you, was that you at any time or were you aware of other young people around you who were being impacted by social media? I wouldn't say, I would say I was just out of the cusp of social media, actually. So it's more me kind of reflecting, like, if that had have of been me at that age that might have been my kind of solace like I can see how young girls can become kind of obsessed with that and think that that is actually their reality what is you know just kind of on their phone screens. Actually to them it is isn't it? Yeah absolutely no absolutely for them but I'd argue you know there is there is more out there and there's more more that you could do but I think I guess why it was important for me that kind of wasn't my in I found this website

that was that and there's loads of these websites where these men basically find these women these sort of models who and then they try and trap them to say actually you're not a model you really are a sex worker and then they try to shame them and kind of bring them down online. So I found this website and I just became kind of fascinated by why you would create a website like that. And also then who are these young women that are sort of saying they're one thing online and then actually kind of have this whole other world. And it is that world that your character Sasha gets dragged or lured into.

It's really lured because it's tempting isn't it at the start? It's absolutely I mean you I can understand it I can absolutely absolutely conceive of it that she she doesn't really have anywhere else to turn and she meets this other young woman who kind of makes it seem super glamorous and it's just all fun and parties and amazing photos on Instagram and it's obviously you know there's a lot more to it than that. Well I've seen the play and I don't want to give too much away but we should say that your character Sasha does end up going to a specific place it's Dubai isn't it? Just briefly outline what happens in Dubai. Yeah so that came from quite a lot of research I did actually um and I I mean I don't I don't almost want to give too much away but I mean it's a really dark time when she goes there

and you're and lots of these women are paid to go to Dubai and agree to certain you know sexual kind of practices yeah practices that they will do um and i guess what i was looking at was like well who's in control of that situation if you're paid a fee to go somewhere and you agree and negotiate terms effectively with these people that are bringing you over these men then when you get there how do you kind of manage that actually because once you're there you're just you know sort of these young women are there with lots of men and um i read about lots of really kind of situations that's super scary yeah i mean this i always think that i've never understand people who write plays for one person and then let someone else deliver

them um you are the person doing it could you honestly have sat in the audience with me on friday night and watch someone else do that um it's tricky I don't know the answer is no isn't it well I guess right now the answer is no but who knows in the future you know and if the play goes on to have kind of a further live then we'll see because I don't know what I'll be up to so we'll have to see yeah well I suppose you couldn't play the part when you were 83. No, we'll see. Yeah, probably not. I mean, it would bring a whole different meaning to it, I guess, if I was, maybe. Well, I mean, I know there's a real attempt by a lot of theatres, not just in London, but all over the country,

to bring in people of colour into the audiences, to make plays about experiences that are relevant to everybody. Is it working? I mean, I have to be honest, it wasn't an especially diverse audience on friday night but you know i mean that was just one performance i happened to see hmm so what's the question so do i think is it working are there more are putting on plays like yours which are slightly different on our in some way in some ways challenging and you're a young woman of color are they making people of your generation

flock to the theatre or just consider going? I mean, I'm working with Tallawa, so they are the leading black theatre company. And so, like, tomorrow night is Tallawa Guest Night, so that will be hugely diverse, and they've kind of brought it out to their network. And I would say, typically, I don't know, like, I go to the Royal Court,

obviously I'm a theatre go, so I go. go but for me looking at kind of the audiences you know from from my point of view they seem more diverse than maybe what I would usually perhaps see which is great because I you know one it's sold out and it's like I feel like the words kind of getting out and there's I would say maybe it's not just about colour it's also about generationally because you know younger audiences it's trickier to keep us coming to the theatre when there's so many things to be watching but I'm not sure

because this story it does tackle race but at the same time it is just a story of a young woman so I think what's important is that as somebody as a mixed race person as somebody of black heritage I think that you can just make stories that basically you don't always have to talk about your race important is that as somebody as a mixed race person as somebody of black heritage i think that you can just make stories that basically are you don't always have to talk about your race or

you know and i think i think theaters are coming around perhaps they could do better but it's a start it's a start they're they're starting to but um we'll see nicole thank you very much indeed and superho is running until the 16th but it's sold out. Yes but on Monday they do returns so you can get returns on Mondays. Have a go next Monday. Nicole congratulations thank you. Thank you. That is Nicole Leckie who is the star and the writer

of that play Superhoe at the Royal Court in London now this is going to be a conversation about autism and about diagnosis of autism. Now I am aware that this is going to be a conversation about autism and about diagnosis of autism. Now, I am aware that this is an incredibly complex area, so we'll do our best to cover as many bases as we can in a relatively short period of time. We know that if you can get a diagnosis for your child, then it can lead to them getting the right support at the right time. So Emma Gill

is a family lawyer. She also has a four-year-old daughter who's been diagnosed with autism. Emma, good morning. Good morning. And Dr. Sarah Brook is clinical lead at the National Autistic Society's Loma Wing. Sarah, good morning to you. Good morning. Can we just start with what I hope is not an insultingly basic question, but what are the developmental goals that parents should watch out for? Well, the key thing, I guess guess at around a year is that children are engaging their parents in activities and that's often through pointing and using eye contact as well as spoken language if it's coming at that stage and so that lack of engagement should be an early alert coupled with patterns of repetitive behaviour that seem quite extreme, persistent or preoccupations

with things that seem very specific and not generally interested in the world. Is mobility or lack of it relevant at all? Not necessarily. Of course, children with autism can have mobility difficulties as well and that can get in the way of assessing for autism because people are focusing on that rather than the issues with the autism. But no, mobility isn't necessarily an issue. Emma, tell me about your daughter, because I know she's absolutely brilliant and you love spending time with her.

She is. She's really funny, Sophie. A very energetic, interested, fun little girl who happens to have autism. It's just part of the the the pattern of her and fabric of her personality um we noticed specifically with Sophie at about 20 months that her language wasn't developing uh as it should so she seemed to babble like any other baby she never had a dummy we did ticked all the boxes did everything that we should do. But then something changed. It was as if the terrible twos came early. She would, what we now know as turn to meltdown,

which we termed as a toddler tantrum, if you tried to make her walk down the path one particular way and she wanted to go the other. But with her language, it developed to a certain point, plateaued and then seemed to regress, almost like she sort of turned inwards and didn't want to communicate. And so did you agonise for a long time about getting a diagnosis or asking for help of any kind? She was already sort of on the health visitor's radar. Because at the two year check, there were

certain things already at that point with her language in particular that were highlighted. But certainly throughout 2017, my husband and I sort of vacillated between the two of us about was there something there or did she just need room to grow? And I think as a parent that's quite difficult because you don't want to limit your child, you don't want to pigeonhole them too early.

But equally accessing support early from from my perspective um was absolutely crucial in getting her not only the diagnosis but the help that she that she needs yeah it's interesting isn't it sarah i can completely understand why some parents might think you know no one is telling me my child is x y or z i will not have a label for my child i want them to be and i guess the advantages of having a label or a diagnosis is that knowledge is power in that having understanding your but does it some can it sometimes limit you if you get a label that can be limiting can't it and i guess that could be in the attitudes of other people but um from our from our practice you know in clinical practice we would see that actually having a diagnostic assessment brings you understanding of your child's profile because it isn't just about a label.

A proper assessment involves generating a profile that reflects your individual child's autism because no two people with autism are the same. And that then can guide professionals and the family, course to support the child. And Sophie, because Emma of her diagnosis is starting school with help. Absolutely, as a lawyer I research, I push, I fight and win cases so I'm going to fight for my daughter probably you know as any parent would but I've got the skills to be able to do it so part of my research was about what was it going to take to get her what she needs to get her into the school that was right for her and with the right support and this comes in the form of an education health and care plan now it's not essential that you have a diagnosis to access

that support but it's certainly assisted and what it's meant that was that we could do a parental referral the local authority have been tremendously supportive we've been out to the school that we wanted us to go to even before the summer holiday so they were on board with it and it's been a real sort of pulling together of various different professionals with sort of me as the as the general organising everything and she'll now go to school in September with 27 hours of a teaching assistant just for her. You make that sound relatively easy. You've also been very honest about how your profession has allowed you to be a toffee on the part of your daughter.

But I can see from your facial expressions it wasn't easy. It's massively time demanding. And that may be because I wanted to do it perfect. But I can see from your facial expressions it wasn't easy. It's massively time demanding. And that may be because I wanted to do it perfect. I was dotted, every T was crossed. I estimate probably about 50 hours of my personal time went into making sure that all the reports were in place, that the applications were filled out properly and that everything was there. The evidence was there so that the local authority could make the decision. The emotional toll is perhaps something

that I really underestimated because the very nature of these applications means that you have to set out the very negative behaviour and set out in some detail the needs that you have. A person for whom you feel incredible love. Yes, I'm sorry, i hadn't thought about that no no not at all i think this is important that parents understand this um and that that sort of raking over that particularly when we're quite a positive family we look at this as a you know

sophie's diagnosis as a platform that she can really push forward from so rather than limiting her it gives her a foundation to really advance and become a valuable member of society rather than a vulnerable one. But the troubling thing, Sarah, is that not every Sophie has a mum like Emma. And it's because it's not easy. And I'm sure Emma will be the first to admit she's probably got a few quid so she can do this. Absolutely. And parents do have to be persistent and they do have to keep talking to professionals and highlight the difficulties that their child's having. And that adds up to an emotional cost sometimes. But I think we also need to put the onus on professionals to listen because parents are experts in their own children.

And actually listening to that wealth of information can be really helpful in being able to expedite an assessment really efficiently and in a timely manner. We are going to talk more in the Women's Hour Parenting podcast, which will be available a little bit later. But I just want to know from you, really, it's easy to say, as a civilian here, I might focus on lack of eye contact, that kind of thing. Just to go back to how we started, it's not necessarily mobility. It might be speech speech it might be repetitive forms of behavior it might be particularly bad tantrums eye contact how significant is that actually yes i mean i cut eye contact one of those things where people think well if you have a bit of eye contact you can't be autistic so that's a bit of a myth because obviously lots of people with autism have make eye contact but it's's the way they use eye contact to regulate interaction.

That's the qualitative difference. Some children, of course, just don't pay much attention to anybody apart from people they know really, really well. Yes, and that can be an issue. So actually autistic children can relate very well to their parents and have very reciprocal interactions, as I'm sure Emma does with Sophie. But actually, that doesn't generalise or transition into other relationships. And therein lies the clue for professionals to notice. That's Dr. Sarah Lister-Brooke. And I think I misnamed her earlier on, so I apologise. Dr.

Sarah Lister-Brooke, Clinical Director of the National Autistic Society's Lorna Wing Centre. And also you heard from Emma Gill who is the mother of four-year-old Sophie and if you want to hear more from Emma and from Sarah then you can do so in the Woman's Hour Parenting podcast on the subject of autism and diagnosis which will be available

next week. Now so many of you wanted to tell us about your caring experiences so let me read some emails out. I'm not surprised by the sheer number of these, by the way. But this is from Lynn. I've given up work, reduced my hours, put my career on hold, resigned to the fact that at 49, I will never rebuild that career.

I feel utterly alone knowing that life will get harder and that my husband and I will have to fight for basic recognition and rights. Caring's hard. It leads inevitably, I think, to poverty, to isolation and to a life which, frankly, I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Well, Lynn's laying it on the line and I don't blame her. Isabel says, I didn't leave my job to care, but I was exhausted juggling my GP job and caring for my 90-year-old mum, as well as coaxing teens through exams and life events. It's only now I'm past it I realise how big an impact it was.

At the time, I think you just carry on and do it. Ray says, Most employers simply don't care. Profit is king. If we can't get genuine, flexible working for parents, then we won't get it for carers. I've had to give up a very well-paid job to care for my son with Pradovilli syndrome. Huge impact on the whole family, both now and for the future, and minimal support for any of us. It's a bitter pill to swallow, says Ray. From Mary, I'm a carer, though not one who needed to leave work to care, but it is worth pointing out that the NHS long-term plan is likely to make things worse. With its emphasis on keeping people in their own homes for as long as possible and providing care close to home,

there are only family carers to fall back on as funding for social care is steadily cut back. From Rosie, I didn't give up my job to look after my mum but my employer was flexible and allowed me to work from home on some days so I could go to hospital visits with her and so on. Maya, I had to give up my job and my flat to move in with my mum. My work was supportive but the lack of services is why I couldn't continue with my actual job. My mum's got Alzheimer's and I just couldn't leave her during the day. Social services said there were no day centres or any help they could offer whatsoever. And the impact is very great.

My social life, my finances, my health have all suffered. But my mum is amazing and she deserves the best. She's happy and we share such love for each other. I don't have children and I am worrying about what will happen when my time comes. Another important point and I'm glad you made that actually. Thank you for doing that. And from Tracy, I had to leave work in 2016 to look after my mum who had a brain tumour. There was no option as I'm a single parent with no other family to help. The benefits office, who didn't seem to be aware that I was eligible for long-term income support due to my mum's terminal diagnosis, didn't do much.

They insisted I needed to return monthly to tell them what I'd been doing to find work. I wasn't in the frame of mind to challenge this because of daily battles with healthcare services and also a feeling of grief and so I ended my claim. We survived for two years on my mum's pension. Mum died in February of 2018. You know I wonder Tracey how many people there are out there like you doing that. Quite incredible. Thank you very much for making the effort to email us and I hope things are better for you now. From Irene, I'm a listener from Denmark. I cared for my parents and had some paid leave from my work. A colleague rejoined my workplace recently after four years on full pay, caring for her mother who had cancer until she

died. Wow, so that's what's available in Denmark. That seems quite remarkable. And finally from Nikki, I've been a carer now for over 20 years. For my grandmother, who died at 96, for my ASD son, who is now 24, I did get some carer's allowance until my son's DLA was reduced to lower rate care when he was 16. I'm now 53. I found it impossible to get a job since my grandmother died. I doubt I'll get a full pension, as I still have five years of national insurance contributions to make. Right, I'm so sorry, Nikki. Again, somebody else who's helped others all her life and ended up being penalised for doing so. Some memories of Barbara Castle. Some years ago, says this listener, I was at New Year's Eve get

together in Cumbria, sitting next to Barbara Castle. She was a delight. As the night went on, we were joining in with the singing. The host asked anyone who could sing to give us a turn. Barbara asked my husband to sing, as she'd heard him as we were all joining in, and he did have a very fine voice. I can't remember now what he sang to her, but she was very pleased, and he was so happy to be able to say he'd sung a song to her. She was very elderly then, but as sharp and as witty as ever, with a definite twinkle in her eyes. That's a very nice memory from Pam Yates. Thank you very much, Pam.

And from Elizabeth Hartley Brewer, she says, I listened intently to your conversation about Barbara Castle. I worked with her for three or four years in the Labour Party Research Department covering social policy. She chaired the policy committee that I ran that met monthly. What I felt wasn't brought out was how she respected those who worked around her. When Labour won the 1974 election and she became Secretary of State at the DHSS, she invited and included me in her weekly ministerial meetings over sandwiches, a political

gathering without civil servants to chat about departmental and some other issues. After each topic, she would go round the table via people such as David Owen to seek their views. I was treated as an equal with my views listened to as well. It was an amazing gesture on her part and an opportunity for me that I can never forget. After she was passed over by James Callaghan and had left that department, I wanted to express my thanks. I invited her to have lunch with me and she accepted. It was at a restaurant in St Martin's Lane. I wasn't yet 30 and didn't have much money, but she didn't wince. Well, I'm very glad to hear it. I hope you had a

lovely lunch. And Elizabeth points out, as a writer on parenting, I've appeared on Woman's Hour many times. Indeed, I know you have, Elizabeth, and thank you very much for emailing us with your memories. It was really kind of you to do that. Thanks to everybody who interacted today. Lots of that from you and I really do appreciate that caring is clearly

a key subject for you and it's one we'll keep returning to. Jenny's here tomorrow with the programme and the podcast, and amongst other things, she's going to be talking to the director of the first Bollywood film to have a lesbian love story at its heart. That's tomorrow. Hello, I'm Gemma Cairney, and I want to tell you about

Don't You Forget About Me, a brand-new hub for great music documentaries from BBC Radio 4. Whatever your musical taste, we've got you covered, whether you want to discover the cult of Apex Twin, or appreciate the genius of Jeff Buckley. My whole philosophy and my whole discovery is that every emotion has a sound to it.

Listen to old favourites and make new musical discoveries. I don't have the answers, and you shouldn't either. And I'm going to make it really complicated just to prove that. Just search for don't you forget about me in BBC sounds and subscribe now I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered there was

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