Woman's Hour - Nicole Scherzinger, Finances of friendship, Asha Puthli

Episode Date: September 29, 2023

The American performer Nicole Scherzinger came to our attention as the lead singer of the Pussycat Dolls. She has since carved out a successful solo career with albums, serving as a judge on television talent shows including The X Factor. Eight years after she was nominated for an Olivier Award for her portrayal of Grizabella in Cats, Nicole has now returned to the West End stage where she stars as the immortal Norma Desmond in a new production of the musical Sunset Boulevard. She joins Anita to discuss taking on this iconic role.The cost of living has put a strain on people’s budgets and a recent report from Carnegie UK Trust suggests around a third of people are not even seeing their friends because they can’t afford to. To discuss how to navigate the finances of friendship Anita talks to Danielle Bayard Jackson, a female friendship coach and Otegha Uwagba, author of We Need to Talk about Money. Singer-songwriter and producer Asha Puthli is regarded as one of the most successful vocalists to come out of India. Referred to as a cosmopolitan pioneer of jazz, funk, soul and electronic dance music who has recorded ten solo albums for labels like EMI and CBS/Sony she joins Anita Rani to discuss 50 years in music.India’s Supreme Court has issued a handbook of 40 words which judges should avoid when describing women in writing judgments or filing cases before courts. Ranjana Kumari is the Founder and Director of the Centre for Social Research, a women's rights organisation based in New Delhi. She joins Anita to talk about how sexist views have played a role in disadvantaging women in India’s courts. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. We are discussing friendship and finance this morning. So my question to all of you is, can you afford your friends? The cost of living has put a huge strain on people's lives that a report out says a third of us can't afford to see our friends. So when it comes to money and your mates, what's your situation? Do you avoid eating out so you don't have to split the bill,

especially when you've only had a starter? Is it thoughtless to book a really fancy restaurant and expect everyone to pay the same? Have finances ended a friendship? Do you do different nights out depending on which friends you're going to be with, knowing people's spending capacity? Do you loathe having to spend more than you can? Maybe you earn a bit more than your mates and there's an expectation on you to get the round in. Or do you do what? What do you do about the mate who never puts their hand in the pocket, the tight one. Or maybe they're tight because they can't afford the round

and they can't afford to be there. I mean, it's a whole minefield. The point is, have you spoken to your friends about it? What is the situation? How do you navigate your friends and finance? Get in touch with me. 84844 is the number to text. You can also email me by going to our website.

And if you fancy getting in touch with us via social media or follow us on social media, if you don't already, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. You can also WhatsApp me or leave me a voice note. It's 03700 100 444. And today the programme is packed with music, a legendary music icon you may well have never heard of. Asha Putli left India for New York in the late 60s and found herself hanging out at Studio 54 in Vogue magazine. She was friends with Andy Warhol and had a record deal with CBS. And now at 78 years old, she has a new album out, remixed by people who adore her. And my music continues with my first guest who was grooving along to that tune. I'll tell you all about her. The American performer Nicole Scherzinger came to international attention as the lead singer with one of the most successful girl groups of all time.

And the sexiest, the Pussycat Dolls. with two albums, winning Dancing with the Stars, serving as a judge on television talent shows, including The X Factor, as a panellist on The Masked Singer and starring in the Disney animated film Moana. Now eight years after she was nominated for an Olivier Award for her portrayal of Grizabella in Cats, Nicole has returned to the West End stage where she stars as the immortal Norma Desmond in a new production of Andrew Lloyd Webber's legendary musical Sunset Boulevard.

Nicole Scherzinger, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. How are you feeling? Because my producer went to see you last night and said it was absolutely incredible. She said she hasn't felt an atmosphere like that in the theatre that was so electric in a long time oh bless well we've been in previews for just a week now and the audiences have been so amazing and so giving and the reception by the grace of god has been that it's going down a storm yes um we're getting standing ovations in the middle of the show yeah huge rounds of applause after every number apparently when you're on stage singing but hopefully i mean we're really leaving it all standing ovations in the middle of the show. Yeah, huge rounds of applause after every number, apparently, when you're on stage singing.

But hopefully, I mean, we're really leaving it all out there. And it's quite, I think, revolutionary what we're doing out there is something very cutting edge, something really different. Your producers said, wow, I didn't expect it. I said, exactly, expect the unexpected. So let's start for people who don't know anything about Sunset Boulevard.

Tell me about your character. Who's Norma Desmond? Norma Desmond. She was a very well-known film star back in the day. And then talkies came along and she kind of got discarded because she was a silent film star. And yeah, I think it's been very difficult for her. It's something that obviously she was very passionate about and it sparked her career at a young age and it was kind of all she knew.

And she was the it girl for silent films. And then talkies came along, movies came along, and she didn't have the best speaking voice. And like I said, they discarded her. They threw her away. And so she cut to many, many, many years up in her mansion off of Sunset Boulevard. You know, she's just trying to find a way to make her place again, to find her place to be seen, to be heard and to get back to that place where she was adored and loved. What attracted you to the role? To be honest with you, Jamie Lloyd is the mastermind behind all of this. I mean, obviously, Andrew Lloyd Webber, it's his music. And I think it's one of his best.

I mean, all of his music I'm in love with, but one of his best pieces. But Jamie had this vision, and he came to me with it. And I obviously grew up doing musical theater, love musical theater. And I thought, okay, well, there's many roles that I would love to play. And this is not one of them. Jamie. Why? How did you, did you not know the, did you not the story? Did you not see, had you not known about it? I think I kind of knew the film, the Gloria Swanson version, where it's just like this kind of, you know, bewildered, kind of out there, older star, just longing to be seen again, longing for fame again. And I was like, yo, this chick is crazy, Jamie. Like, and how old is she? Come on, dude. I still look good under bright light.

And he was like, no, no, no, don't pay attention to any of that. He said, strip it all back. He said, just read the script. Read the words, the story on the page and listen to the music. And when I listened to the music, I fell madly in love with her. I felt like I had written those songs myself. And so the rest was history. We had talked for a long time about it because I was still scared I still had my reservations of and while people would perceive it you know and and he he just kept going back to telling a truthful human story so what were your reservations well just what they would think it's like oh my gosh like is my career over am Am I, what, just, you know,

I always wanted to be like, growing up, I wanted to be Lea Salonga in Miss Saigon, not seeing this. So you think people would think, oh, that's Nicole playing a role that she's, that people would have judged you playing that character? I think, to be honest, initially I thought the role was a lot older

because Norma Desmond's character is set to be in the 50s. But how old is she? But really, when Patti LuPone and Glenn Close played it, they were about my age. That's crazy, isn't it? So 40s. And it's crazy how we've progressed because back then when they played it, it's like, that's ancient. But now it's like 40s or the new 30s. You know what I'm saying? Look at me.

My skin is glowing. It really is glowing. It's early. I had a late show last night. How much sympathy did you find that you had for her once you read the, you said you felt that you could have. I didn't feel sympathy. I felt empathy. I felt I could relate in so many ways.

And I really loved looking at the script and reading the story from my point of view, from my personal experience. I didn't think, I mean, obviously, it's scary when you, when change happens. It's hard for us to accept change sometimes. It's really hard when sometimes, especially in this industry, if you go out of fashion, or if you're discarded or dismissed, and I've definitely felt like that in my life. I've written about it. When have you felt it? I mean, I think it's difficult. You know, when we were at the height of our career with the Pussycat Dolls, you're in it and you're

working so hard, you're not able to really enjoy it, be in the moment. And then you don't realize till after it's not always going to be like that. You know, everybody, everything has its cycles and new generations and new music and timing comes along right um yeah it's interesting you should say that because when i was thinking about you because obviously i knew you were coming in today you are someone i i've watched you from afar and thought that is someone who really grafts yeah that is someone who's worked hard to get to work like on every level Nicole the way you look the way you present just the the thing the programs I've seen you do the way you kind of reinvent yourself you can just see that you are just so focused so it's interesting to think of you leaving the pussycat dolls and I wonder at what point you realized okay

I need to now really kind of focus on what I need to do next and how you decide and how you even go from A to B. Well, first of all, I appreciate that because I think nothing great comes in life without very hard work. And I always say,

let the work speak for itself. And I come from absolutely nothing. Yeah. By the grace of God and his strength and me having the willpower, it's just, it's all about the work. So let your work speak for itself. As far as the pussycat dolls go, I never left the pussycat dolls. I think that it was a difficult time for us. People don't realize how our schedules were. There was never sleep or eating or anything in our schedule. It's a very different time now where it's woke and it's

all about mental health and caring about people and managing hours and things. Back then we were just like, it was very unhealthy how hard we were working. And so it's natural, I think, for five women put under that amount of pressure for so long to just eventually want to go off and do their own thing. And that's what ended up happening with the dolls. But I was really excited to be able after that to do my music as I know the other girls wanted wanted to do their own projects and we all did that and I have nothing but love for um for all of my girls and so happy for all of their success especially here yeah absolutely um when you think back to that time it wasn't even that long ago you know what we're talking 15 years ago when we posted cat dolls I mean it's it's I think 15 years

when we started but we were together so maybe 10 years now because we were tryingussycat Dolls? I mean, it's, I think 15 years when we started, but we were together. So maybe 10 years now, because we were trying to do the reunion before the pandemic happened. And so much, like you say, has changed or has it? I don't know. This is a conversation that, you know,

have things changed that much? Do you, when you think back to how you were treated, do you sort of, how do you feel about the amount of work and pressure that you were put under, you know, as women in the music industry? It's okay. My name, Nicole, means victory. I never played the victim card,

always the victor card. I came from very tough background, very humble beginnings. So I'm grateful for everything that I was ever put under and anything that happened. And I'm grateful for those times because it prepared me and it made me who I am today. Where does your drive come from?

I think God. He is the source of my life. I'm nothing without him. He gives me so much strength. Honestly, like Jamie always says, be brave. And then he's like, now you're brave, be braver. So I think definitely God is everything in my life and my family. I have a very strong family.

I have a very big family and we're all grafters. Who's in it? Tell us about the family. Tell us about your beginning. Well, I have my mom and my dad and then i have only one sister but my mother comes from 10 brothers and sisters and her mother comes from 18 and are you still close extremely what a family gathering and that's only one side of the family i come from a big indian family so i know exactly but come on that's a lot exactly does everyone still get together?

Absolutely. It's crazy. I don't know. My grandparents have 98 grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I don't know how they remember everything, but I have a, that's only my mom's side of a beautiful family on both sides, a big family. And I just, I come, I'm so grateful to come from a family of extremely strong women. My tutu, which means grandma in Hawaiian, is like my everything. Yes, because you were born in Hawaii.

Yes, I was born in Hawaii. And they're just badass. They are warriors. We have warrior blood in us, literally. Tell me more about that. What have you seen these women go through? How have you seen their warrior go through how have them how have you seen their their warrior powers shine there's just selfless they just they have we have

very big families and they just work um they eat breathe and sleep to to to care for to take care of to make ends meet whatever it takes for their their. We have a very big family. They're just selfless women. They don't think about themselves. My mother is a selfless woman. She got pregnant with me when she was 17 years old. She's done everything in her life she could for me. We grew up, like I said, with humble beginnings, no money money and just did whatever it takes, working however many jobs, doesn't sleep, you know, dealing with not the best circumstances, no money, but making it work and doing it out of love.

And yeah, they're just amazing. I mean, just for example, my cousin the other day just gave birth in her home, literally pulled the baby out. Stop it. Like they're warrior women. I'm going to be like, y'all need to give me some drugs. Please, Jesus. That's why you created these drugs. There's something for everybody now available.

And it was your mom that nurtured and supported your obvious talent from a very young age and musical theater is where you wanted to be right always yeah i mean when i was six years old i heard um the voice of god for me which was whitney houston yes and the greatest love of all changed my life i felt really awkward and shy as a child i felt like i truly didn't feel in from, I think, the day I was born. So when I heard her, everything kind of made sense and aligned. And so I wanted to do music. And we didn't have the means to put me in school or take classes or anything, certain schools. So we had mapped out for me to end up going to a magnet school

and the projects would which was a magnet school a magnet school it's just the type of school math and science um school that it focused on and those academics but if i went to a magnet middle school that would ensure me to go to this magnet high school, which was connected to a youth performing arts school. So for a young age, we were just new. Okay, this is the plan. Get me to that youth performing arts school where I can meet my kind, my tribe, hopefully fit in and then be able to get the education that I needed. And so I went to a youth performing arts school

and that's where I studied voice. I was a first soprano. I re-watched your audition for the US Popstars, which is, I re-watched it in preparation for this. And they come to your home, your family's sitting there to tell you whether you've made it. Yeah.

And I mean, first of all, yeah, you look incredibly polished already you just um and it was really emotional watching the family because break that you all just wept at this moment that was happening in your life and it's just very interesting to think how far you've come i think when you like talking about grafting and hustling, I think when you work so hard and when you have a lot of struggles in life, so when good things happen, it's a real blessing. It really means so much more. That's why I'm grateful that I had the upbringing that I did. What's it given you, that upbringing?

That appreciation. It's made me who I am. It's made me the workhorse who I am. Everyone I meet is like like you're the hardest worker we've ever met it's just and I have a real a true appreciation everywhere I go even if I stay in a beautiful hotel like for me it's like I'll never take anything a moment for granted and I'm truly grateful because of it do you sometimes feel you're on the outside looking in Nicole what do you mean like an outsider in the like do you feel like you've had to really fight harder because of your background to get to where you are?

Yeah, I know I've had to fight harder and I continue to fight hard. grateful for this this role because it's it's a real opportunity to to show all the many facets of me that people still haven't even seen yet after all these years and you've moved to London I've moved to London and oh my gosh the weather has been gorgeous yes I I didn't know that you don't wear a bikini a leopard bikini out in the middle of a park no it's changing there are some parks where you can wear leopard bikinis also just wear your leopard bikini bring it i was like look i got one hour i am stuck in a rehearsal studio all day i'm gonna make i'm gonna make this hour i'm gonna squeeze the the marrow out of this hour yeah make the most of the weather and also you you're engaged. Congratulations. Thank you.

To Scottish rugby player Tom Evans. Yes. Wedding plans? Not yet. I think that he, you know, obviously we want to get married in Hawaii where my family is and my papa is a bishop. So he'll marry us.

But I can't even think that far right now because I'm still trying to we haven't opened the show efficiently so i'm still wrapped up in and in my mind and that in the norma desmond term and that's around my head and norma desmond this woman who's sort of at the end of her career but it's only in her 40s and here you are i feel like mike like you said we've not even seen some of what you what you're really capable of and look my look how the times have changed you know you see some some women and you're like wow where have you been I didn't even know like you know their their career is happening later on in life so I feel like I'm

just at the cuff I feel like one of her lines is it's just the beginning I really do and i'm excited it's just a bold new reimagination of the musical like never before for a new generation and um yeah and i know i just i i'm aware of time but i'm just really enjoying speaking to you um how do you i know we i follow you on instagram uh a lot kind of obsessed with all the kind of exercise that you do and how you keep in shape and all of it. But what do you do to relax? Because you work so hard. You've talked a lot about the graft and the drive. What do you do to just switch off? Because it's really important, isn't it? Especially when you're working at such high intensity, you're on stage every night, you're going to be belting out those numbers. It must be incredibly draining. What do you do just to get the energy?

It is, Anita. I'm not lying. I'm very tired right now. No, I'm just joking. It's a bit crazy now getting this show up and then the previews rehearsing all day and doing the things. But relaxing. Do you want to know what I'm doing now? For real. I get one day off.

Yep. That is a Sunday. And I do not miss a Sunday roast. So I would actually love it if anyone could like message me or tell you where for me to go. I'm looking for just great Sunday roast. Come to East London. I've got you. Don't even worry about it.

I love a Sunday. Do you like a pint as well? I can do a pint. I usually have a glass of red wine because I always do chicken or pork but i love a sunday roast with extra extra gravy and that relaxes me because i know i'm just gonna get like a really makes me feel like thanksgiving for us i have got you girl don't worry about it pubs are my specialist subject i love we'll sort that out um it's been such a pleasure talking to you um i want to wish you all the best with the show. Thank you so much. Come and see us again.

Yes, thank you. Can't wait for you to see it. Yes, me neither. I can't wait for everyone to come and see it. Thank you. You can see Nicole in Sunset Boulevard. It runs at the Savoy Theatre until the 6th of January 2024. Thank you, Nicole.

Wow, next year. Thank you. Now, can you afford your friends? The cost of living has put a strain on people's budgets, and a recent report from the Carnegie UK Trust suggests around a third of people are not even seeing their friends because they can't afford to. So do you earn less than your friends, and has that put a strain on your relationship? Do you avoid eating out to avoid splitting the bill when you've only ordered a starter. To discuss this,

I'm joined by Danielle Bayard-Jackson, who's a female friendship coach and founder of the Friend Forward podcast, and Attega Wagba, author of We Need to Talk About Money, who once ended a friendship because she couldn't afford her. Welcome to both of you. Danielle, I'm going to come to you first. How important is money in female friendships and how can it impact when a friend's financial circumstances suddenly change? Yeah, you know, I think we like to say these general mantras like, oh, money doesn't matter if we're friends. But I think on a practical level, a lot of our social interactions do happen on a backdrop that requires funds. And that's how we spend time together. So I think immediately we start to fear that, well, if I don't have have the funds that's less time i see with my friends

i start to get left behind um so you know money ideally is not important but unfortunately it does play a very real consequences sometimes to to who we see and how often we get to see them um i take it why is it so difficult for us to talk about money in friendships? Is it difficult? Is it important to talk about it? I think it is important to talk about it. And it's increasingly more so given, I think, the current economic and financial climate. But I mean, I have every empathy for people who find it difficult to talk about.

I think we all, money is kind of seen as like a sort of value and a judgment of value and a judgment of how valuable somebody is. And it's kind of taken as an indicator of your moral value as a person. So I think it stands to reason that people feel anxious discussing how much money they do or don't have, because unfortunately we live in a society where that tends to be taken as a metric as your kind of moral worth. And so then sharing those figures and sums with friends or people you don't know that well, tends to be something that I think a lot of people find quite difficult. I know that certainly in the past, definitely in my early and actually most

of my 20s, I'm in my early 30s now, I found it really, really difficult to broach that topic openly with friends. Did you try? I did. I'd say more towards the end certainly in my early 20s i didn't at all i think i'd kind of grown up with that kind of received wisdom that it's rude to talk to people about money and it's also a very british thing that you don't kind of ask quite pointed questions about money um and i felt very embarrassed about a lot of things but i think by the end of my 20s you know i write about money a lot I wrote a book called we need to talk about money which is very much about my relationship with money and so that helped me process a lot of feelings I had and it made it much easier for me to have those

direct conversations and now I have them all the time yeah Danielle what what feelings does it bring up talking about money and do people's's backgrounds influence this? Is culture important? Yeah, it's so interesting. I was just like serving a very informal survey of about 80 Gen Z millennials when we're talking about money. And a couple of the themes that came up in that conversation was a feeling of embarrassment, to Atega's point. Feelings of shame because to her point about feeling, you know, unworthy. And if my friends are supposed to be people who there isn't a power dynamic, and now suddenly it feels like there is because

we've introduced money issues. Feeling anxious because you feel like you're going to get left behind. Can I keep my friends if they're still going to vacations and I can't tag along? And then also a handful of them also said they fear that they're going to be a burden if friends have to help cover or whatever it is. So there's a lot of anxiety around feeling like you can't afford your friends. Atega, you actually phased out a friend over money. I did. I did. Tell us about that. Of course, I feel embarrassed about it now.

But this was in my early 20s and it was not long after I'd graduated. And at the time I had a job, I was, I think I was temping as a receptionist. So I was being paid. And at the time I was also living at home with my parents. So it wasn't as if I was completely, completely, you know, castrapped, but one of my friends who I'd gone to university with, she'd gotten a job working, you know, as a banker, you know, working in finances, she was absolutely clearing money. And she came from, you know, a really well off background. So I found that when we socialized, she tended to want to go out for brunch or go out for drinks or go out for dinner. And that

was nothing to her, you know, it was to spend that kind of money. But it wasn't even so much that I didn't have the money, but it was that I don't, I didn't feel like I had enough money to justify those expenditures. And I had to prioritize other things. And I was concerned about saving and this and that. And, you know, I wasn't in a job that I saw as a long term perspective at the time. So I was quite conscious about money and to my shame and I would say that I took the coward's way out with this in that I never broached it with her because I found it I just would have been too embarrassing I don't think it would ever have occurred to me to say hey um do you think we could do something cheaper or free can we hang out you know each other's house like I don't quite want to spend

you know my money on xyz so over time over you know a year or so I just kind of phased her out I kind of talked out with her less and less no I didn't go no I didn't go I wouldn't do that but I just I put less effort into the friendship and I think that was because I felt um quite anxious about it and also too embarrassed to kind of say hey this is the reason and so the friendship just kind of withered and i have some regrets about that because it wasn't anything she'd done wrong although although i am thinking about you know her sort of awareness of the fact that you know not everybody earns the same wage as a banker and so therefore maybe you need to kind of be especially when you're in your 20s be alert to the fact that maybe all your mates can't afford the fancy meals loads of messages

coming in on this i'm just going to read some of them out for both of you uh liz has emailed in to say i stopped socializing with a group of girls there you go to your point atega group of girls who all worked for the same company and had big salaries they think nothing of ordering cocktails champagne and pricey food then getting cab cabs home afterwards i started driving to save taxi fares but still found myself being expected to split the bill, even when I didn't drink anything. Oh, that's another one. Someone else says, I earn more than my best friend and was happy to buy coffee occasionally, but then it became expected.

I've never addressed it with her directly, but now I don't offer to pay. And Alison in Chesterfield says, hi, our friends were so tight with money, they would subsidise them. We would subsidise them all the time. After a few years, we decided that we would stop arranging to see them. And the friendship has fizzled out, which makes me, yeah, Danielle, what do you think about some of those? I guess, you know, does that mean that people just gravitate towards hanging out with people who can only afford to do the same things as them? You know, it's interesting. I think it's the other way around. I think when you're hanging out with people and doing certain things, then in order to maintain that, you

probably have the same spending habits. And so, you know, a practical truth, I think, might be that we are congregating with people who, you know, we share the same tax bracket and that's how we're able to do the same activities at the same time. What's interesting about some of those messages that you read is, one, I mean, lack of communication, and then those feelings of resentment on either side start to bubble up. You look at the friends who are spending all the money and you're a little bit resentful. I think for some of us, we go beyond the limitations we should set for ourselves. So we know I should not be out every week spending this, but we go beyond that for a bunch of other

psychological reasons. You want to feel like you belong. You like what being a part of this group says about you. And so I think a lot of that stuff plays a role as well. But yeah, there's definitely that resentment that crops up on both sides. So there's, what kinds of stories do you, have you heard from clients about financial fallouts? You know, what's interesting is for me, I mostly hear it around the time when someone's getting married and then there's the bachelorettes and there are all the things and then the meaning that the bride assigns to you when you say that you can't go and she doesn't know what to make of that. Do you not care? are you not invested um so i i hear it often and then we kind of brainstorm some ways where it's like how do you feel like you could still be engaged in this friendship by also still being um having some sense of integrity to what you can and cannot do or even the cost of the wedding so many people having weddings abroad

now just paying to get to a wedding in the first place um atega you were a situation with a friend on holiday how did that end up we're just uh hearing about your stories now atega yeah i know let's just you know go through the memoir no this is a scenario uh again about a decade ago who a friend of mine i seem to have had a lot of very rich friends but a friend of mine uh we visited her family second home in the south of france and that was all fine it was really lovely um great trip but i'd say a year or two later when we had a falling out she brought up that trip and that i guess generosity on her part or i would say on her parents part as a reason why i should feel I guess beholden to all things she had done for me

and that my behavior now and I can't remember what the argument was about but that it implied that my behavior now was ungrateful and I yeah I know and I I mean the friendship didn't recover for all sorts of reasons but I do remember thinking that sometimes when people offer generosity towards you you have to be careful whether or not you accept it and check whether it's done in good faith because often there are invisible strings attached that you don't realize until much further down the line I remember at the time thinking god like I just want to send her an invoice for how much that trip would have cost if I'd been renting you know that home just to just to kind of make a point and send it to her and be like, look, I'm free of this friendship now, because I also felt

quite irritated about the fact she hadn't actually spent any money. It was just the home that was there. But it was crazy. The power dynamic is a minefield here. Can we give people some practical advice then? Because there's lots of messages coming through. I'll read a few more in a minute. Oh, here's one. Honestly, we just tend to have dinner with each other at our houses we take turns to cook for one another and we'll bring drinks and desserts with us when we visit and that's from linda that sounds good to me in australia it's normal for everyone to pay for their own meal so you can eat what you want um and you can afford it and marcia and stroud says i get everyone to come to mine and we bring a small dish if you can not necessary as there's always loads of food if we go out i offer to pay

for my friends that are struggling with finance discreetly, even though I can afford it. I try and avoid these very expensive places and I tell my friends, yeah, that is the thing to do. So very quickly, a bit of advice from both of you. If people are concerned, it's Friday night, there's a big party happening tonight, they don't know whether they want to go because they can't afford it, what should they do? Talk to their friends about it.

I mean, I don't think it's difficult to think of or come up with less expensive options as a way of socializing i mean i think one of the small silver linings of the pandemic is it showed me that actually on a saturday morning you can actually just go for a walk in the park and meet a friend as opposed to going for an expensive brunch so it isn't hard to come up with other ideas what is hard is broaching that topic with friends and i would just advocate you know a bit of honesty and just saying hey I don't have it like that at the moment could we do something instead like x or y and it's also an indicator I think of the sorts of friends you have if they are then immediately sympathetic to that which you would hope they would be or if they kind of judge you for that

or aren't willing to meet you at your level that's something that for me is pretty much you know a kind of deal breaker with friendships because you know I kind of have it both ways I have friends who out I out earn and I have friends who vastly out earn me and I think everybody needs to be prepared to meet you know their friends at a comfort level the person who is lower earning needs to be the person who's higher earning yeah needs to meet the person who's lower earning at their comfort level and if you're not willing to do that you're not a very good friend no it's a sad state of affairs if all your mates are just your mates because you all earn the same amount of money and you can afford to do the same things that doesn't sound like a very healthy friendship group to me danielle

quick bit of advice for anyone yeah very simply express what you can do without apology there's so much a tone uh you know the tone of like like, I'm so sorry, but I can't know it's there's no shame around that. Oh, you know, you guys have fun on the vacation. But when you come, when you come back, come to my place, let's pop open a bottle of wine. And you tell me every detail. Yeah, that's what I'm doing with a smile. But I'm telling you what I can do without apology. And really owning what I have to offer to the friendship that is not necessarily monetary. Tega and Danielle, thank you so much for talking to me about this. Someone else has messaged in to say,

I now meet up with my old work colleagues to walk and have a cheap lunch at the Country Park Visitor Centre since one person made us aware that another couldn't really afford to go out for dinner. We spend the whole time talking anyway, so it really doesn't matter where we are. Now, my next guest is referred to as a cosmopolitan pioneer of jazz funk soul and electronic dance music i'm talking about the singer songwriter producer and one of the most successful vocalists to come out of india asha butley there are not many artists whose discography includes working with ornette coleman one of the most powerful

and contentious innovators in the history of jazz. Crafting celebrated New York underground disco classics and being sampled by Jay-Z, 50 Cent and the Notorious B.I.G. It was a lifelong interview wish fulfilled for me when she joined me in the studio earlier this week, having flown in for London Fashion Week to appear on the catwalk for the fashion designer Ashish Gupta. Well, I asked Asha what

it takes for an Indian woman from a conservative upper middle class background to get to America in the late 60s. You break the rules. You know, my generation, most people, because I'm from the silent generation, basically, or the baby boom generation. Yeah, you were born in 1945. Yeah. You don't mind me ageing you? No. You look amazing.

As they say in India, I was 78 and a half. Let's not forget the half. I burned my stripes. Absolutely. So you broke the rules. Broke the rules. There was an arranged marriage all set up. And you know how arranged marriage is.

You know, same community, same this, same that. And I said, no, I'm not going to have an arranged marriage. That was the first thing. And two, my father said, you cannot go abroad till you finish your master's. And then we will send you abroad for your PhD. Because, you know, all Indian parents want their children to be doctors or lawyers. So there were all these things, these hurdles to break through. And all these hurdles come when you're a little bit of a maverick.

Other people used to call me maverick and trailblazer and this and that. Sure, you are all these things. But it takes gumption and I think you have it. What does it take to do it back then? Passion. Passion. One is passion. Yeah.

And when you have passion and desire, especially when you're younger, you can manifest things. It's really a brain set. I used to hear a radio station called Voice of America in India, which taught me what jazz is, because there was no institution at that time to teach you about jazz. And I used to study Indian classical and opera, because my parents said, as long as it's not for financial gain and not a profession, but cultural, educational, anything like that,

they would encourage it. They'd get the best teachers. And I saw the similarity between jazz and Indian classical in the sense of the freedom for improvisation. Sure. And that's what attracted me, the concept of freedom. How were you discovered? Through a book. Ved Mehta, the writer, who's passed away recently, actually. He happened to be in Bombay, in India, and we'd all gone to a club. Every time I went to one of these nightclubs, we used to go for what was known then as tea dances because my parents wouldn't let me

go out late at night. And I'd get up and my friends would say, go up there and sing. Go on, go on, sing. And I'd say, look, the band may not like it. So I'd give my back to the audience because one, I wasn't a hired singer. Two, because I didn't want my parents to hear about it that I was standing up and singing. Singing in clubs. And clubs. And then you were written about, and this is how you were discovered. He wrote about it in this book called Portrait of India, and he writes about jazz in Bombay, where the musicians tell me,

you're too good for here, and they won't accept you here. There's no audience. So there was no audience, really, for that kind of music then. And you landed in New York in the late 60s. Yeah 69 actually just two weeks before Woodstock and I went to Woodstock of course. Of course you did. John Hammond Senior he was the Magellan of jazz I mean he had discovered people like Billie Holiday Bessie Smith you know in the 30s and 40, Benny Goodman was his brother-in-law, I think. He discovered a lot of Bob Dylan in the 60s.

He discovered Bruce Springsteen. I said there was going to be a lot of names dropped in this interview. Yeah, because I've lived a long time. Absolutely. And you were there. You were right in the heart of it. Yeah, and I was one of the last people he discovered. He was there in an honorary position he read the book and in walked in Ved and he asked Ved who's the girl you've written about

in your book because it says that she's trying to come to America I have to just tell everyone who's listening that Asha's stories you've got so many and things I've read about you the names the names that come up in your stories are incredible because not only were you hanging out with great artists in India, but when you moved to America, you were there, you know, Andy Warhol, just one of the names that comes out, and jazz pioneers like Ornette Coleman. How did you just move into this world and what happened? Andy, when we first met, it was at the Gotham. It was called Gotham Bookshop.

And in those days, there were these mics, open mics. He was sticking it into everybody's face. And he came around to me and he said, say something. And I just said, oh, stop sticking that thing in my mouth. I'm not that kind of girl. He's like, who is she? And we just struck up a great friendship. He had a sense of humor,

especially with sort of sexual innuendos like that, you know. So then he used to invite me over to his studio, which was called The Factory in those days. Absolutely, yeah. That's how I got to know him. And during the pandemic, like two years ago or three years ago, the Whitney Museum had a retrospective of Andy's work. It was called A to B, Andy Warhol. As you walked out of the elevator, on the right was this vitrine.

And in that vitrine, he had all his favorite things. It was Marcel Duchamp, who was a big inspiration for him, his book. He had John Richardson's letters to him. He had the lyric book of the Beatles. He had William Burroughs' book. And he had Lou Reed flat. And my picture was centered in the vitrine. But that was done by the Whitney Museum, you know, the layout. Sure. Incredible. I didn't know he was that fond of me as to put me into his time capsule to take with him to outer space.

Isn't that fantastic? And then you were signed to CBS, but they wanted you to change your name. Yes. Because they didn't know where to put you. We can discuss this later, but how far things have progressed and how little they've progressed since the 70s. But you didn't change your name. You kept it. How did you manage to stand? That was over 50 years ago. Yeah. Why did you decide to keep your name? Why not change it? For several reasons. One, I felt there was no level playing field for South Asians or Indians to make a statement in any way, you know.

I mean, musicians at that time, like the Beatles or Taj Mahal, whoever, they'd come to India, learn the sitar or the flute, even John Coltrane, and bring it back. But we were not acceptable as someone who could be at par with Western musicians. Remember, I grew up with a post-colonial head, pre-independence, one of the Midnight's children, so to speak. And I felt even if I make a little crack in the door, the recognition that there are other Indians like me would be there.

So you had to represent? In a way, yes, to represent the Indian community, basically. And I just thought it would be wonderful to do that for others. There were many talented people. So you were this, I mean, i wonder what they made of you how exotic they must have thought you were when you landed in the states i mean the as part as well as the music being you know so distinct and you know indian classical jazz um i mean you've made so many different types of records r&b soul funk disco uh techno people are remixing you right up

until modern day as i mentioned there's a brand new remix album we're going to play some of it in a moment but also we've got to talk about your look and fashion and your style because it's so distinct and you're incredibly beautiful and you've been dressed by designers such as i mean ashish is still inviting you here which is why you're here to be as part of his show but manolo blahnik was a friend yes in fact in those in the early days he also wrote for Vogue magazine Italian Vogue yeah so he wrote about me in that too and you've been in Vogue yes a few times yes and how important is the look the fashion the style I think it's just an instinctive thing people just dress the way it's not like I've had a stylist work with me. No, you just take whatever you have. I used to dress very strangely in the beginning. That's

how I met people like Salvador Dali, for example. I mean, just also Andy. They liked the look. And that's where a lot of photographers wanted to photograph me. It was the way, I guess, the way I looked, just different. But when I got there as a student, I didn't have the money to buy haute couture at all. So I used to invent my clothes. Like I'd take the embroidered pillowcases and I'd cut one half and slip into it and put a cinch belt. And once or twice it fell down because it's only a cinch belt. And then a Saurashtrian top, a man's top. They look like a Greek, almost like a Greek thing.

Or I'd wear foxes from a thrift shop. Sounds like you're having the time of your life. Yeah. Was it very difficult forging a career in the music industry, though? It was difficult for me to get record deals, a solo record deal. Yeah. Because even though I'd worked with one of the founders of avant-garde jazz, a legendary icon like Ornette Coleman, who was a Nobel Prize winner for his music. It was considered two very difficult songs. Despite that, CBS did not want to sign me

because avant-garde does not sell millions. And here you are with this incredible career, all these amazing stories. But when you look back, is there any part of you that sort of laments for the fact that you skirted around mainstream success, where I feel that you rightfully belong? Everyone should know your name, along with Grace Jones. Know my name.

Yes. And yet you didn't get the recognition. What kept you going? The fun. I mean, I enjoyed being with other artists, with other creative people, with collaborators. You did an interview with a wonderful singer-songwriter, Raveena, and you discussed what it means for her to be an Indian woman performing now.

How do you feel when she says things like it's still very difficult? I think it's getting somewhere, though. Honestly, it's a slow progress, but it's happening. Perceptions, changing perceptions takes a long time. It does. And what's next for you? We're doing a documentary on my life. We've started shooting, and that's the camera crew that follows me everywhere.

Exciting. I've done a couple of recordings. They're all coming out. And I've been working, I've been recording with of recordings they're all coming out and I've been working I've been recording with young young in their 20s and 30s who actually have discovered my music and some of them have re-conceptualized it remixed it. And to discover that there was an Indian woman then right at the heart of everything that was going on in the jazz scene, in the music industry, doing your thing, it's of huge importance. Yeah, most of us have gone. We've long gone. That was more interesting for them. They said, oh my God, she's alive.

In lots of interviews that I've read about you, you said, you know, you are one of the most iconic and yet underrated talents out there. Do you think it would have been different had you changed your name? Something as simple as that? Oh, definitely. The trajectory of my career would have been totally different if I had changed my name. Because they used to tell me, they used to say, you're not black, you're not white.

And I used to joke about it, say, ridiculous. It takes a lot of confidence and a lot of guts to stand your ground and say, I'm not going to change my name. They thought I was a difficult artist. Not just for that, for other reasons too. Go on, what were the other reasons? Because I was very particular, I was very specific. This is what I want.

I will not be treated as less than my counterparts. And were you? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. The fact that in America, all of the albums I've done. Ten albums. Yes.

A lot of albums. Have not been released until recently. Now it's changed. In America, they were not, despite it being CBS International. And is it exciting to be right now at 78 that all this is happening yes and they're young people and i love that and mr bongo that came out with those three the essential asha the first remastered it beautifully remastered all the old stuff and we're coming out with another one in january i have loved loved loved speaking with you, Asha. Thank you so much for gracing on this. Don't ask me on a talk show because I start

babbling and I don't stop. No, babbling is great. Talking is my drug and singing is my sex. Talking is my drug and music is my sex. I'm going to get that as a tattoo. Lots of you getting in touch about money. In New Zealand, it's very unusual in cafes and restaurants and bars to each pay individually.

So for if any reason people are consuming different quantities and values items, it's just they pay for what they had. It implies that. Now, on to a big story from India relating to how women are treated in the courts there. A handbook has been issued of words that should be avoided by judges when describing women in their cases. These are terms which are sexist in nature and so campaigners say undermine a woman's access to a fair trial. To talk us through what these terms are and what change this handbook could bring about, I'm joined by Ranjana Kumari, the founder and director of the Centre for Social Research, a women's rights organisation based in Delhi.

Ranjana, welcome to Women's Hour. Tell us about specific court cases where language is important and what types of language has been used. Thank you for having me for this programme. It's important to see how the words which became part of the law, you know, which are already very socially value loaded like you know when you describe a woman as someone who's a mistress i mean what what the whole intention is some woman who's in romantic relationship with a man but then instead of saying that you say she's a mistress of so-and-so and it immediately you know brings the subordinated status of some woman who's you know and also of a loose character or someone who's not really

similarly if you are talking about the whole you know say for example women who are in sex work prostitute hooker you know all those kinds of expressions basically are uh you know they're telling people about women's character how society looks at women so uh basically this is something which supreme court has really uh worked very hard to bring out stereotype vis-a-vis what is the real expression, what should be, you know, and also is stopping court to stop promoting stereotype language. Instead of that, they should use alternative language. And this has really been very, very good development. We have really welcomed it with full of our hearts because we have been all along saying that. For example, a small word, eve-teasing. Eve-teasing sounds like some kind of a playful act by men against women.

I have to repeat that. It's not. It's sexual harassment. Because eve-teasing is not a phrase we hear in the UK, but it's something that I hear often in India. And eve-teasing is basically sexual harassment, but it's known as eve-teasing in India. So how has that been laid out in this handbook then for judges is it just you know the judges have described it as a sexual harassment right that's that's what now even the law has described we have a law at you know sexual

harassment at workplace and also that includes when you are you know bullying a woman and she's going to work for example in the bus or a train or you know metro or whichever way you if you are exploiting harassing you know trying to touch her feel her push her then this is sexual harassment this is no or whistle at her or talk about her body you know so all those things have been now in a way total no-no another very important thing you know if a woman in marriage doesn't have i mean every woman must have a child this is some kind of a notion about women in culture in the culture in the culture in every culture i suppose you know not only in indian culture so you know uh there's a whole there's a word about that saying that banj she's a banj that means she is someone who's

incapable of having children and then you know there was a time in the law that arrangement was that the man can leave such a woman because he does need a progeny. He needs someone to inherit the property that has come from, you know, different from the ancestors. So this Banj word, you know, and then it somehow got into the law. And finally, of course, now with this new booklet which has come out, it's about 35 pages. It describes many words on one side that is a stereotype promoting language.

On the other side, it talks about alternative language. So it's extremely important and very progressive development where Supreme Court, you know, has stepped in and defined it. Do you think this could have a trickle-down impact on cultural and societal views towards women? Well, certainly, you know, it will take time.

Certainly, it will take time. But when you know when the legal pronouncements are like that, women are seeking justice. When they go to the court, even the judge sitting there is using the similar kind of language. And it is a judge because you don't have jury trials in India. No, it is a judge. You don't have a jury trial in India.

So it's a judge using the same language. And in a way, women standing there, she's called seductress. Now, what do you mean by seductress you know i mean like this is these are the kind of even about uh transsexual or trans uh this best bestie you know and then unwed mother when there are so many such unwed mother i mean a woman is a mother is a mother i mean if you have a child you are a mother of that baby how what do you mean by wed or unwed mother i mean like this is something which also talks about a woman doesn't have a right to have a child outside the marriage, you know? Or a single woman doesn't have a right to have a child. These are the kind of notions which needs to go now. And we are very glad the Supreme Court has

brought about such a change. And you've been protesting for this for some years. What's been your experience of speaking out against the system in India? people also changing, society changing now even legal because it's very difficult to change the laws and there was a committee constituted by National Commission for Women in the early 20s and you know the committee recommended weaning out all these language, weaning out all that and also to really delete all those laws or you can say repeal the laws which are useless. They don't really give any kind of help to women. But then there was no response to that. And now things are slowly, slowly changing.

Latika Sarkar's recommendations are coming now to light. So we're very happy about that. Thank you so much, Ranjana Kumari, for joining me from Delhi to enlighten us about what's happening and the changes that are taking place there. I'm sure we'll be speaking to you again at some later stage about something else. That's it from me. It's been wonderful to hear from all of you about how you deal with money. My stepdaughter is in her first year of uni. She's already agreed with her friends that the person who hosts provides the food and the guest

has already paid for the train and the buses to get there. Sounds good to me. On Weekend Woman's Hour this week, the godmother of performance art, Marina Abramovich, on a career which has spanned 55 years. Join me tomorrow. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Nick Robinson. I want to tell you about my Radio 4 podcast, Political Thinking. It is about why people think the things they think. What is it in their lives, their backgrounds, that explains who they are and what they believe? My mum was a very community-minded person. That's what brought politics to life for me, actually. These are conversations, not newsy interrogations.

Lucky, ruthless, probably a bit of both. And they're not just about rows or problems. They're quite often about the good politics can do. There is nothing like government. Good government gets things done. That is what democracy is all about. That's Political Thinking with me, Nick Robinson. Listen now on BBC Sounds. fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been

doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.