Woman's Hour - Nikki Lilly, Debt, Grief over a pet, Hayley Squires

Episode Date: January 16, 2026

The number of abortions recorded in England and Wales has reached a record high, according to the latest government figures from the Department of Health. There were 277,970 abortions in 2023, the highest number since the Abortion Act was introduced in 1967 - which is 11 per cent higher than the previous year in 2022. Rachael Clarke is Head of Advocacy for the British Pregnancy Advisory Service - known as B-PAS, and tells Anita Rani about the findings. In 2025 alone she walked at Paris Fashion Week, spoke at the United Nations about face equality and won 'Fashion and beauty influencer of the year' at the the UK and Ireland TikTok awards, all while managing a chronic illness. Nikki Lilly is a Bafta and Emmy award-winner, an influencer and a campaigner and she joins Anita in the studio. January is one of the toughest times for managing finances - and this year the pressure is hitting harder than ever. In just the first week of 2026, more than 13,000 people turned to Citizens Advice for help with debt. Last January, over 50,000 people sought support, and they expect this year to be even worse. New polling commissioned by the charity over the last six months reveals one in three people in problem debt have gone without essentials like food and women are feeling the squeeze more than men, with nearly 40% of those seeking advice being impacted compared to 31% of men. To discuss, Anita is joined by principle policy manager at Citizens Advice, Emer Sheehy, and personal finance and consumer expert Sue Hayward.Grief over a pet's death can be as strong as that for a family member or close friend, new research shows. Anita talks to Philip Hyland who led the research on prolonged grief disorder. Actor Hayley Squires is currently on our screens in the long-awaited second series of BBC spy thriller The Night Manager. Her character Sally Price-Jones is second in command to Tom Hiddleston’s Jonathan Pine, as they navigate a dangerous world of international espionage, deception and moral ambiguity. Since her breakthrough in Ken Loach’s award-winning film I, Daniel Blake, Hayley’s won critical acclaim for a host of TV, film and theatre roles. She’s currently also appearing in the hit production of All My Sons in London’s West End. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It's that time of year where there's loads of great TV, not least the night manager. It's back 10 years after the gripping first series. Are you watching it? I'm totally in and very excited to be joined by actor Haley Squires today about being in the new series. Then she was named Fashion and Beauty Influencer of the Year 2025 at the UK. and Ireland TikTok Awards.

Nikki Lilly also walked at Paris Fashion Week, one of the first with a facial difference to do so. She also is a hugely successful YouTube star, and she's achieved all of this while managing a chronic illness, and she's still only 21. She'll be here to tell us her story. And Citizens' advice has found that women are more likely to be in problem debt, going without essentials such as food.

We'll be discussing the reasons for it, and if you have experiences, please get in search. and remember you can remain anonymous. And mourning a pet can be as traumatic as grieving for human family members, according to a new survey. And the grief can last for years. This may not come as a surprise for those of you who have loved and lost a pet. The academic survey also found that people often feel shame and isolation for expressing grief over an animal. So this morning, tell us about your pets who were brought you life and the sense of grief you felt after they had gone,

in touch in the usual way. The text number is 848444.844. You can email the program through our website. You can contact us on WhatsApp. It's 0-3700-100-444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. That text number once again, 84844. But first, the number of abortions recorded in England and Wales has reached a record high, according to the latest government figures from the Department of Health. There were 277, 970 abortions in 2020. The highest numbers since the Abortion Act was introduced in 1967, which is 11% higher than the previous year. Rachel Clark is head of advocacy for the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, known as B-PAS, and joins me now to tell us more. Morning, Rachel.

What do these latest figures tell us about the number of women having abortions in England and Wales? What's driving this rise? So I think it's really important to remember that these figures date to 2023. And if anyone can remember back that far, it was very soon after the mini budget. There were large rises in the cost of living, you know, cost of food, cost of energy, cost of mortgages and rent was going through the roof. And what we certainly saw at that time is that women were coming to us saying, I can't afford to have a baby at this point. I might not be able to afford to have an additional child. I might make different decisions if I was in a different situation.

but ultimately looking at how much it's costing me and my certainty about whether I might have a house, whether I might have a job in the future means that they were making the decision to end that pregnancy. And what about the age that the women are having the abortions at? How old are they? So the most common age is 23. So those are obviously mainly women who don't have families already.

But what we have seen over many years is an increase at later ages. women over the age of 35 or 40 who have decided that whether they have decided voluntarily not to have children or whether their families are complete. They've, you know, they might have had one or two children and decided that ultimately they can't, they don't want or they can't afford another. More than half of the women having abortions are already mothers. Are you surprised by that?

It's actually been very common for a very long time that that's the case. I think a lot of people when they think about abortion, they think about, you know, reckless or careless girls. They might be teenagers. They don't, you know, it's not the right time for them because they're not in a stable relationship. And actually what we see is that the vast majority of women who come to us are in a relationship. Many of them, as you say, are already mothers. And a lot of them are older than you might expect when you think about it. Should we talk about contraception?

What are you finding around this issue? So I think what we've seen over the last few years is that perhaps more than ever before, we are seeing more women who are coming to us without using any kind of contraception. And I think there are a few things that are driving that. One of the main ones is access to appointments and access to getting that care. So we know that sexual and reproductive health clinics have had their budgets cut, their opening hours cut, the number of them have reduced. And we also know, as I'm sure everyone does, how difficult it is to get a GP appointment.

And quite often, once you get to the GP, the one that you've got an appointment with may not be an expert, may not be able to advise even the way you want. And, you know, for some women, they may have had experiences with contraception that just doesn't work very well for them. It might give them side effects. It might just not be what they want. And without having those appointments to be able to talk through their options, ultimately their decision is, I'd rather not risk it. I might just not use contraception at all. And one of the other things you found is that the proportion being carried out at the lowest gestation, two to nine weeks, has increased. Why is that?

The simple answer to that is telemedicines. So back in 2020, the law was changed. Until that point, women had to take at least one of the medications for an abortion in a clinic. And they tended to do that after a face-to-face appointment. What changed in 2020 with the pandemic was actually a really big step forward. for that. It enabled women to have telephone or video consultations and to take that medication at home. And what we saw almost immediately was a really big increase in the number of women having abortions at the earliest gestations. And we're now looking at, I think, at about 50% that

are happening before seven weeks and nearly 90% that are happening before 10 weeks. And that's because women can access that care when they need it without having to set aside time, organise child care, take time off work in order to get to a clinic which may be quite a distance from them. So that was a big change then for women. Are you surprised by any of these figures at all? What have you made of them? I think to be honest, we've been waiting for them for such a long time that no, it's not a surprise. You know, I think back in 2023, a lot of people across the abortion sector were really surprised at the number of women we saw coming to us. And you talk to doctors and actually, you know, they're saying that 10 years ago they were seeing maybe a thousand women

a year and now they're actually seeing 2,000 and you're seeing those really big changes over kind of a relatively short period. But, you know, I think what we have seen is that those big increases in 2020, 3 have not been echoed in the following years. So although we have seen some increase, I would not expect to be sat here next year telling you that yes, there's another 11% increase. Thank you for now. Rachel Clark from B-pass and if you've been affected by any of these issues, you can check out the BBC Action Line website. Now, in 2019, Nikki Lilly, my next guest, won both an Emmy Kids Award for her CBBC show, My Life, Born to Vlog, and Abafter. She was the youngest ever recipient at 15 for her inspiring work as a YouTuber and a presenter.

Nikki highlights chronic illness, self-acceptance and face equality and has also used her plan. to speak out against facial edits online. Last year, she won Fashion and Beauty Influencer of the year 2025. At the UK and Ireland TikTok Awards, she walked Paris Fashion Week, one of her first women with a facial difference to do so. She spoke at the United Nations about face equality, and, as she puts it, made it to 21.

Nikki, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be here. It's wonderful to have you here. Is this a good way to start, 2026? Definitely. Oh my goodness. I've been such a fan of Women's Hour and everything that it embodies. And so, yeah, it's really strange though when you read out what I've done because it kind of feels like an out-of-body experience, like watching a film of things that have happened to me. But I feel like it still hasn't settled in that I've done all of those things. Yeah. Well, well, let's talk about them because you have done them all. And 2025, as I've just mentioned, a few of the things was quite a year. Yeah. Where do we start? Walked at Paris Fashion Week.

Yeah. How was that experience? It was incredible and very surreal. I have always loved fashion and beauty. You know, it's a massive part of my job, but I think for a long time I felt very kind of isolated from the industry. As we all know, fashion is not the most inclusive space at the best of times. And so Paris Fashion Week is somewhere where all of, you know, the biggest brand show and do their shows twice a year.

And it's the kind of notoriously one that is really difficult to have access to, especially if you have a difference. And so this brand called Matia Facal, I wore one of their dresses to Cannes Film Festival earlier in 2025. And their whole ethos is redefining what it means to be in the fashion industry and challenging stereotypes and norms. And obviously that's something I completely resonate with

and I'm trying to do in my small way. And so they asked me a couple of months before if I'd walk in their show. And it's not something I've ever done before. I can barely walk in a straight line. So I was like, oh, I don't know if I can do it. this but I think it was kind of equally an instant yes because of what it embodies and it being kind of like a mark in history, me doing it. So it was incredibly surreal. I think, you know, I said

on the day that I've always loved the fashion industry but I've never felt fully embraced back by it and accepted into it. And it was the first time where I felt wholly accepted. So important. It felt like history. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I mentioned, you know, you're winning the TikTok award. Let's just talk about figures. How many YouTube followers? How many TikTok followers? I think in total on social media I have like 15 million followers. 15 million followers. And so many people know all about you and you are so inspiring. But let's explain your story because it is remarkable. You were at the age of six diagnosed with AVM. Tell us about that. How did that change your life and what AVM is?

Yeah. So I was diagnosed with AVM or arteriovenous malformation at six years old. I was born with it. You have to be born with an AVM, but it can be dormant until any age. So mine became active at six, but till then both sides of my face looked like, you know, the average child's knew no different to like a normal, happy life till then. And then at six years old, some veins and swelling started appearing on the right side of my face. And we didn't think too much of it, but went to the GP, got a checkup, and he was kind of quite worried and quickly referred me to another doctor. And then I had some scans and tests. And I was. referred to another doctor and then they finally told me that I had an AVM so what an AVM is it's a rare condition you can get it in any part of your body but mine's in my face and head and that type affects three in a million and it's basically an abnormal connection between your arteries and veins when you're being formed so a switch genetically that should turn on or off doesn't and so a cluster is kind of formed in an abnormal connection between them and the capillaries which you have all of all over your body and don't form between your

arteries and veins. So it leads to a build-up in swelling, a build-up of pressure. And ultimately, the hardest part of my condition has been I can get life-threatening nosebleeds. So a few years ago, I was in a coma because I lost so much blood. I've had to date 98 surgeries since I was six years old. And yeah, my childhood got taken away very quickly. You know, there's currently no cure for an AVM. So everything that you do when you have one is just trying to give you a slightly better quality of life and managed symptoms. 98 operations. Yeah.

And you're in that coma for eight days. Yeah. How old were you? 13. Yeah. Yeah. You were eight years old when you, you, and it was you, right? I mean, this is, it doesn't surprise me, knowing what I know about you and you sitting here that at the age of eight you had the will and the capacity to say, I want to go online.

Yeah. Because you wanted to document your life. I wonder how you, what your parents, the conversation between your parents, the conversation between your because obviously parents want to protect their child. Of course. And but also they, well, tell me, you tell me, how did that play out? Yeah, so I was a very active and chatty child. I had every single hobby.

I was on a boys football team and, you know, I had to give up all of these things that I love that kind of defined me as a person and made me happy. And my identity at six in a heartbeat, they were kind of pulled away from me. And so watching videos online, whether it was in hospital or at home, because I was only in either, I didn't really go to school, became my escapism. And I was always kind of in my own world. I'd film these little videos on our family iPad and didn't do anything with them to cope really and have a bit of a safe haven

and forget about being a sick child. And one day I asked my mum and dad if I'd be able to create a YouTube channel just for myself, just a little project for me to put my time into and have something that was completely unrelated to my condition, which felt like was defined my life essentially and something that was in my control that was mine. And, you know, of course, Parents being parents. I don't, if my eight-year-old came to me and said I want to start a channel, I'd be like, no, I don't think so. But I think my circumstances were a bit of an exception to the rule. My parents were obviously very nervous because my appearance had started to change and they understood what I didn't,

which was that people could be unkind online because I kind of lived in a bubble. I was used to being stared at a bit, you know, in public, but never really receiving direct comments about my appearance. So the only way that I would be able to do it is if comments were turned off for the first couple of years. And, you know, that was fine with me because it was for me anywhere. I didn't care about that or really understand that side of it. Yeah. And it became my safe haven and my outlet. And then a couple of years down the line, when I was 10, we negotiated for me to tell my comments on.

And what happened when you saw them? Yeah. I mean, it's not like I had loads of comments. I wasn't, you know, getting followers from the get-go, but that didn't matter. But obviously, I see I received lots of lovely comments, you know, that really spurred me on to continue. And people with conditions and even AVM. from people saying, I'm from India and I have an AVM, which you would never have known about. So that's the beauty of social media as it connects people in a way that you never would have known.

You find community. Exactly that, especially if you don't feel like you have that in your real life. But equally, obviously, I received some negative comments, things saying you're a monster or why do you look like that? Or you're so ugly, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that was incredibly difficult because it kind of broke that fourth wall of me not really being able to believe that people could be so uncomfortable. kind online and yeah it was very difficult and I took a break from social media but my parents reminded me this is yours so if you don't want to do it anymore that's your choice but I think it almost like I didn't want to let those haters win essentially and this was always for me and so of

course I internalised those a little bit I was a child and we're all human but I think as the years have gone on I've understood that it's so much more about the person commenting than it ever is about you. Absolutely. And it takes a lot of people a long time to even get to that place. Oh yeah. It's a work of progress. But you've had to understand that from a very young age. Yeah. But you got success. Yeah. And it's obviously because you're such a brilliant communicator. You were still really young in your teens when you got a CBBC show. Yeah. And you got to interview Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, who was the labour leader at the time. You asked Teresa about dealing with criticism. What did she say to you?

And also, what was it, what did it mean to be able to have that TV show? I mean, it felt very special. It was kind of off the back of, I just had my documentary, my life, which you mentioned. And we were working with the same team. And it was really special. It was kind of me, as a 13-year-old, talking to public figures and politicians about what they were like when they were my age. And obviously, everyone has a different story to tell.

And kind of humanising them, you know, things like Theresa May, obviously, at the time, she was our prime minister. and I remember being so nervous, sitting in 10 Downing Street was our first series with her whole team surrounding us. But yeah, I think, you know, she kind of said that she tries to block out the noise

by doing things that she loves. And obviously being someone that is in the public eye, especially at her level as a politician, you're, you know, exposed to a lot more scrutiny than the average person. And so she kind of said that she tries her best to sort of detach when she can. But it was really interesting.

I am the video um interviewing her I think a lot of people like I think the time said it was like her best interview she'd ever done um and I think that's it I really if I wanted that series to be anything it was just to humanise the people and talk about who they were before they were who we know them as now and you got great success yeah a BAFTA yeah and an Emmy yeah it was insane in both in the same year especially you know the Emmy was for the documentary about my life which felt in insane because I was, you know, just a child that was trying to navigate having a chronic illness and growing up and feeling like such an outsider and so isolated. So the fact that this documentary that just followed my life was just that was recognized by the Emmys, let alone received one. And then equally for the BAFTA, the BAFTA Special Award, I'm sure as you know, is something that BAFTA has to choose you for. It's not something you win. And I was the youngest ever person to be selected for it and most people get it as recognition at the end of their career or nearer. It's huge. It's huge. So that was, I remember I received a letter basically after asking if I'd accept and I had to call and say yes, I accept and it was like sealed and with like a wax kind of sticker and I remember thinking who would not accept this, you know? It was, yeah, it was so surreal. So many incredible things that you've achieved. Yeah. I also want to mention you speaking at the UN. Yes. How did that come about? And what was that experience like?

Yeah, so I became the patron of the social justice charity, Face Equality International, earlier last year. And before that, I'd worked with Changing Faces a lot, and they're kind of interlinked. And Face of Quality International was one of the only social justice charities in the world that kind of their main goal is legislative laws and campaigning for those and change in a more kind of solid way and concrete way. And, you know, I think I resonated with that so much

because as much as I'd raise awareness and talking is a massive. part of understanding. Ultimately, sometimes you can talk and talk and talk and talk and it kind of is acknowledged but then forgotten about or just you're talking to avoid. And so for me, the fact that it's, you know, the focus is things changing in a more concrete way in times of laws, really, you know, it feels special.

It feels like more action and more progressive. And so, yeah, last year they invited me, the UN invited me to speak on their, one of their first ever, I think, disability panels talking about the injustices, especially on social media and in technology for people with not just facial differences. There are other people who were deaf and things like that. And it was incredibly special.

It was in their main room, you know, the circular room that all of the different countries sit in. And that was over 50 countries there. And I was so, so anxious. And I'd lost my voice that week. So I was like, what if I can't do it? But it was incredible. You know, I talked about the fact that ultimately, like anyone, you know, people with disabilities and facial differences are human.

And all we want is to feel fully integrated in society and to have the quality of life that we all deserve and the livelihood. And ultimately with technology and AI these days, we become really unrecognised and it falls short. And you talk a lot about that, especially facial edits online. Exactly, yeah. So last year, I posted a video on my TikTok

and it was just a photo of me when I was younger and the photo of me when I was older, a trend that people were doing harmless, you know. And then it kind of blew up. It got like 20 million views. But, you know, a lot of the comments became a trend of people screenshoting the photo of me now. Because the photo of me when I was younger, I didn't have my facial difference yet because it was before my diagnosis. And then would cut off the right side of my face that just showed the left side and were commenting it in my comments saying,

oh, the wasted potential or like what you could have looked like or even using AI to ask it to mirror the right side of my face to the left and re-commenting it and saying, look how beautiful you are oh my goodness so what do you do you do you do not i did respond i did a video i wasn't going to because obviously that's what people that comment things like that want ultimately a lot of it is just people wanting to be noticed um but it got to the point where i was like this is actually insane probably 9000 of these comments are that like it had become a trend and a thing to do so i did a video addressing it and saying that essentially by you doing that you're erasing half of me, you're erasing who I am, it's out of order. And not just accepting you for who you are.

Exactly. And then, but your whole work is advocacy for people to do just that. Yeah. And not just for you, but for so many. Exactly. I was going to say, do you think it's improved? Is it not exhausting? It's very exhausting.

You know, the thing that drives me is the hope for change. And, you know, I think especially being at Paris Fashion Week, having a brand that recognized me and wanted to shine a light on me, felt very special and like a bit of hope. And the same with when I spoke at the United Nations, you know, them giving me such a global platform to speak about such real, you know, pressing issues. Again, felt like hope.

But on social media, do I feel like we're more inclusive? No. I, you know, I'm very lucky that my space and the people that follow me, it feels like a safe space. And those people that follow me know my condition now and will often advocate for me, which is really special to have. It feels like a community of friends. But the people outside of that, I think, you know,

we all become very cowardly on social media because we feel like our phone is our barrier and so we can comment whatever we want and it just, you know, not get acknowledged and not get reprimanded for it, essentially. And so everyone gets very, you know, feels like they can comment whatever they want online. And I think it's very difficult, you know,

I keep pushing forward because I hope that there is more continual change. What would you like to see happen? I think this is the thing. It's not anything drastic. It's literally just that people with facial differences and disabilities feel equal in society to everyone else. And if things like technology, which we all use every day, even face ID, a lot of people with facial differences can't use face ID. And that's what gets you into a banking app or even, you know, those passport scanners, you know, that you go through at the day. airport they can't use them so that's isolating them and ostracizing them even more so it's literally

I think all we want is just equal opportunity and to feel as human and as worthy as our equal counterparts that don't have these issues and whilst you're doing all of this yeah and um talking about your experience and pushing for change and speaking at the highest level you also have talked about your own personal acceptance journey yeah and you know it's a very personal uh journey and not not just with you as your family as well. I know you're incredibly close. You live over the road. Yeah, literally round the corner. So where are you with that now? And how do you feel now? I, at 21, feel like I am at a point where I accept myself more than I ever have. Do I feel like I fully accept myself and the fact that I look the way I do? Probably not. I think it's a real work in progress. And I feel like I'll always have those kind of internalized feelings of what it was like to be at school and be the only one that,

look like me and no one else understanding and kind of walking in with my head down and never feeling confident enough to speak to anyone and I think I've internalised a lot of things that are very hard to unlearn but equally yeah you know when you have a chronic illness it's something that and that's so life-changing like mine has been it doesn't just affect you it affects it's a ripple effect on all the people around you in your bubble so for five years me and my parents were going to america for medical treatment so that was every 60 because there was nothing even the best hospital in the UK could offer me. So we were left with no option but to do that and use our savings for that. And so every six to eight weeks, four or five years, me and my mum and dad would go to Denver,

Colorado for treatment. And then it was, you know, my brother and sister being left with like a family member, but still in their kind of primitive years of growing up. And so not having like physically present parents and a sister that was really unwell and they had to see, you know, being taken away in ambulances sometimes. And so it really affects a whole family in different ways. I think all of us have been impacted by it. Obviously, I'm the one going through it, but it impacts my parents and feeling helpless that they can't do anything for their child.

And so I think, you know, what it's done is, of course, we all impacted in it in negative ways. And if my parents could magic away my condition and heartbeat, they would. But equally, it's made us closer than ever. My family is so supportive and so protective. And the things I've been through are very traumatic. You know, I deal with PTSD every most days. How do you cope with it?

It's very different. because I think with PTSD, it's chronic PTSD, so it's something that has happened on multiple occasions. I have a lot of health kind of traumas and things that have happened, you know, the coma. Lots of things, my massive, you know, life-threatening bleeds. I've been in a lot of life and death situations at a very young age and a lot of growing up, especially as a child, you need stability to grow and form and, you know, things like that. We all need that in life to feel in control. And I didn't have that from a very early age.

didn't have control of my body my body never felt like it was mine i didn't have control over my health my life my childhood was taken away from me and so it's very difficult you know i i constantly live in a state of fight or flight mode because i'm so used to a bleed just happening or something just happening and so i never feel very present which is maybe also why when you talk about the things i'm i've done i'm kind of like wow that's crazy because i've never really had the capacity to fully take them in because i'm so aware of my body and what's happening in it and um kind of always in a state of fight or flight. So it's difficult. And especially when, you know, I go to hospital appointments and I'm kind of actively having to go to the place that has

given me traumatic things, you know. But you have no choice. You have to take yourself back there. And that takes so much. And even to be able to talk to me about it and to share it so openly and honestly, which I have to say, I'm very grateful for you to be able to do that. But obviously, there's nothing stopping you. No. And nothing will. Yeah. And you've started your new podcast. I have. Yeah, so my new podcast, Live a Little, launched in late November. And it's something I've wanted to do for so long. You know, I started on YouTube, which was that long form kind of just sitting, talking to a camera about anything. And, you know, I think for me, I've always wanted a platform where it felt like just speaking to a friend. And so for me, Live a Little was kind of the platform where I explore, you know, decentering what it means to have external validation, friendship breakups. I just talked about the reality of having a chronic illness, you know, what it's like when you don't have control, lots of different things, but also embarrassing stories growing up, you know, so it's a space where I just want people to feel safe

and, you know, take away the noise and especially, you know, we're more connected than ever in technology, but I'd say the least connected that we've ever been in terms of maybe like deep conversations and social kind of situations. And so for me, it's, I want to be the friend that maybe someone doesn't feel like they have and just a safe space that I kind of wish I had growing up. I think you've got a lot more friends,

probably everyone listening to this interview. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. Nikki Lilly, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. What a pleasure to speak to you. And Nikki's podcast, Live a Little, is available now wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to join the 15 million, if you don't already, then you can join your Nikki Lilly family.

We're in. Thank you so much. Oh, no, thank you. This has been amazing. 84844 is the text number. Get your thoughts coming in on anything you're hearing on the program. Now, January. is one of the toughest times for managing finance.

And this year, the pressure is hitting harder than ever. In the first week of 2026, more than 13,000 people turned to citizens' advice for help with debt. Last January, over 50,000 people sought support, and they expect this year there'll be even more. Behind these numbers are real struggles. New polling commissioned by the charity last year, found one in three people in problem debt over a six-month period have gone without essentials like food.

Women are feeling the squeeze more than men with nearly 40% being impacted compared to 31% of men. So to discuss this, I'm joined by principal policy manager at Citizens Advice, Emma Sheehe and personal finance and consumer expert, Sue Haywood. And if you do have a question,

then do get in touch and you can remain anonymous. That text number once again, 84844. Welcome, Emma and Sue. Email, I'm going to come to you first. What's driving the increase? What's behind you?

it and why is January such a critical time? So January is normally our busiest month for debt advice and that's true every year. But as you said, just now we've seen a higher number this year than we have in the last few years. So 13,000 people reached out for help with debt in the first week of January this year. And just to give you a comparison in 2021, so around the start of the cost of living crisis, that number was 7,700. So that's a really big increase. And we're also seeing people experiencing higher levels of debt. So the average amount of debt people were in that we helped last year was nearly £9,000. So people are experiencing more issues and those issues are more complex. I think what we see is that there's a lot of factors combining to make life

really tough for people at the moment. You know, we've seen over the last few years, prices in energy prices, prices and food prices, rent mortgage, you know, people feel like they're being hit from all side. And I think all of those things make it really difficult for people to keep their head above water. But we do also see a spike in January and that's for a few reasons. You know, it's just after holidays, Christmas can be an expensive time. Also the colder weather, people might be putting heating on more and then find their energy bill is higher than they expected. But also there's some positive elements here. You know, we do see some people, January, they look ahead to the year ahead. They think this is the year I'm going to get on top of my debts and they reach out to get advice. And so we do see

some of that in January as well. I started by saying the phrase problem debt. So what is problem debt, as opposed to just debt? So problem debt basically means there's a couple of things that we would say class you as being in problem debt. So that's if you're behind on at least one priority bill, so things like your energy bill or your council tax, facing creditor action, like things like being contacted by bailiffs or using credit to pay a essentials. Essentially, it's when people are struggling with those debts, they're starting to experience some of those worst impacts of debt in terms of the action that can be taken. And it does mean that there are support schemes available, like the breathing space scheme, that if you are in

problem debt, you can access. And why are women being hit harder? It's a really interesting question. So across the board, we do see more women than men reaching out for debt advice. And that's true across our service. We've also done some research, which again, you mentioned in your intro, which shows that the experiences of women are slightly different from men. And it's not to say that men aren't impacted, but we see that women are hit in different ways. I think there's a couple of reasons, but a lot of it comes down to income inequality. So if we think about some of the reasons you might fall into debt, but lots of people, it's that your essential costs just are too high for your income. So, you know, months to month you're falling behind. And we call that a negative budget. Or it

might be that you have an unexpected cost, you fall behind, and then your income's not sufficient to kind of cover that. And we know that for lots of reasons, women are more likely to be in low paid work than men. They may have childcare responsibilities. That means that they are limited in what they can earn. But we also do see that single parents are disproportionately impacted by problem debt. And in the last year, 80% of the single parents we helped with debt were women. So that's another factor that we definitely see at play here. Got lots to get into here. I'm going to find out what you make of what you've just heard. Really interesting.

I agree with a lot of Emma has said because, you know, it's a really difficult situation because I think women can be impacted in so many reasons. I mean, there are also things, for example, like, you know, if you've come out of a relationship and maybe you've had shared finances with your partner and things have gone wrong, very often the financial impact of that can have repercussions for many years to come because if you've accrued debts, it can show up there and obviously on your credit report. And it means that then when you are trying to get financial loans, credit cards, get back on your feet yourself, you can be impacted by that. And also on the flip side,

if you've been with a partner and maybe they have handled all the finances and it's been their name on the bills, you can end up being classed as credit invisible, which is a group of people who basically just don't have enough information on their credit report, which means organisations don't know enough about you when weighing up the risk whether to give you a mortgage, a phone contract, a credit card. So it can be really difficult. Then you might end up having to pay more for more expensive deals. So there's things like that as well as, of course, the costs of living, which a lot of people I think have got through the year somehow just managing to make ends meet. And of course, the whole double whammy of Christmas spending, if they've got families they want to buy for.

And it's easy to say at Christmas, don't buy presents. But of course, so many of us, want to celebrate and families will go out. So it can really end up with that sort of January hangover as the credit card bill hits the matter of rhyme. As you say, in more ways than one. But there's so much that kind of is related to debt, isn't there? So there's fear, the shame, and then just basic lack of knowledge about what you can and can't do. So what advice would you give to women who are in this situation and feel incredibly overwhelmed? I would say seek help. There are so many organisations, obviously citizens, advice, step change, national deadline out there. It's free advice, impartial advice, and they can give you guidance on

who to contact and what to do. And I would also say, you know, tough as it may be, never be afraid to contact your energy supply, your water supply. These organisations actually have a responsibility to help you. I mean, certainly with energy companies under their license agreements with off-GEM, the energy regulator, they have to try and help you. So if you get in touch and say you're struggling, whether it's a temporary payment holiday, whether it's looking at a cheaper deal, they have a responsibility to help. And it's the same with your mortgage company and other utilities as well. So while it may seem that the bills are mounting up,

actually asking for help each particular organisation will have its own frame of what they can do to help. Well, your first bit of advice, Sue, was contact Citizens' advice, but we've got EMA with us from Citizens' Advice. So we'll just talk to you directly, EMA. Tell me about breathing space, because I don't think enough people know about this. What is it? And how can it help people? Definitely. So breathing space is a government scheme that was introduced back in 2021. And it's designed to do kind of what it says on the tin. It gives you some temporary protection from creditors while you get advice and make a plan. So you can apply for breathing space by contacting a debt advisor. And what it means is that you get a pause essentially on recovery action. So you won't be getting phone calls or letters from your creditors, chasing you up for money. You get a pause on interest and charges. So your debts aren't sort of building up and building up.

while you're trying to resolve them. And the aim of breathing space is essentially to give people space and time to get the right advice and put a plan in place to move forward. So it's a really vital lifeline for people who are in problem debt. But what we found in our research is that it's not currently working as well for people as we think it should. Why is that? So breathing space, as I say, was set up a few years ago. And from some of the figures I was talking about earlier, I think the picture of debt has changed a lot in the last few years. And the scheme hasn't really kept pace. So just for one example, breathing space lasts for 60 days. But lots of our advisors tell us that actually, given the complexity of people's problems, the number of debts they have,

the amount of debt they owe, they sometimes need a lot longer than 60 days to get that resolved. We also do find that some creditors don't actually play by the rules. So we helped somebody last year who went into breathing space after having fallen behind on some unexpected debt bills. And at the time, she was in remission from cancer, she was living with her daughter. And she applied for breathing space to just give herself a break and figure out what she was going to do. But unfortunately, some of the creditors were still calling. They were still, you know, sending her emails, sending her letters, ringing one catalog company around her, I think, four times a day and sometimes at night, which is obviously really distressing. And the purpose of breathing space is to give people that room to breathe.

And so it's really important that the scheme is flexible. It meets people's needs, but also it's enforced. properly. I'm stressed on her behalf. And then she got in touch with you. Were you able to help? Yes, we were. So we were able to firstly put her into the breathing space scheme. So you can only access breathing space through debt advice. But that's a really important part of it is to get that plan in place. And then we were able to support her and contact creditors. We can give people advice and we would really say, as Sue says, to reach out. It can be really overwhelming, but it's really important. And you know, the first step to getting back on top of your debts is to

reach out for support. And we will leave it on that good bit of advice there. Emma Sheehe and Sue Hayward, thank you. And we did ask the government for a statement, but so far we've not received a response. 844, that text number. Now, grief over the death of a pet could be as tough as losing a family member.

New research in the academic journal Plus 1 suggests that more than 7% of people whose pet died could be struggling with something called prolonged grief disorder or PGD, which could last for months or even new. years. Well, joining me now to talk about this is Philip Highland, Professor of Psychology at Maynooth University Island, who led the research. Welcome to Women's Hour, Philip. Why did you want to carry out this research? Hi, I needed it. I was a bit annoyed, so I do work in this area,

and we have these diagnostic medical textbooks that tell us what these disorders are and how are diagnosed and they basically explicitly say people cannot be diagnosed with this condition if they've lost a pet. So imagine somebody could go into a GP, they could present with all of the symptoms, with all of the problems that are characteristic of prolonged grief disorder, but the medical profession would have to turn around and say, sorry, go home, there's nothing wrong with you. These symptoms don't mean anything because they come from having lost a pet. That's me seem silly, crazy and annoying. So I wanted to do some work to find out if people can, in fact, get prolonged grief disorder from losing a pet. We're getting lots of messages in. I'm going to read

a few of those out in a minute. So when you started your research, what did you find? We surveyed about a thousand people, representative of the United Kingdom population, and we basically asked them if they've been bereaved, who they lost. One interesting thing we found was that most people who'd lost a pet had also lost at least one other human being. parent, friend, sibling. And we asked them, well, which of all of these losses did you find to be the most distressing? And one in five people said the loss of their pet was the most distressing experience. Overall, eight and a half percent of the UK population met the requirements for prolonged

grief disorder. But specifically among people who had lost a pet, as you said, it's seven and a half percent. And that was very similar to, say, having lost a close friend, once a person. best friend. You know, that was 7.8%. What are the symptoms of prolonged grief disorder? Yep. So it's characterized by two main features.

One feature is preoccupation with the deceased. So these are intrusive thoughts that people have. Thoughts about the deceased person that comes into your mind over and over and over again. You can't control. You can't help it. And they're really distress. And it happens throughout the day all day.

Then there's a longing and a yearning. So this is the emotional desire. to be with the deceased again. Again, it's very, very painful. And alongside those major symptoms, you tend to find people having difficulty accepting the death. Now, that's a bit strange, because they know the person has died.

They're not under any illusions, but they find it hard to understand it in their bones, if you know what I mean. They also can feel very guilty about the loss and then have all kinds of intense emotional pain. So it might be anger, might be sadness, might be loneliness. So, and people, you found that one in five of the people, that you spoke to were suffering from this.

And this is something that came up is that people probably might feel embarrassed to even talk about the fact on top of that. They're dealing with this prolonged grief, but then also the embarrassment of saying that I'm feeling this strongly about losing my pet. Yeah, in the field we talk about this is something called disenfranchised grief.

That's just a fancy way of saying, well, people are bereaved and they display their grief and other people don't recognize it, don't acknowledge it, don't understand it, they feel ashamed and embarrassed. And there's an awful lot of research that shows that individuals who've lost a pet who are experiencing grief

either hide it because they know people will respond badly to it. Or when they manifest it, if they show the grief and the suffering, people think, what's going on? Why is, you know, why are you suffering?

It was just a pet. Are you going to get a new dog? You know? No one says, are you going to get a new best friend? Does it affect women more than men? In general, prolonged grief disorder does. The rates of prolonged grief disorder are slightly higher in women than in men. And there's lots of reasons for that.

But one seems to be that women play on average a larger role in caregiving. And, you know, prolonged grief disorder comes from a rupture of a very close relationship. So if women on average are more likely to be in caregiver role, and to be caring for elderly people, for example, parents. And those parents pass away or those individuals pass away, they're slightly more at risk of developing the condition. Fascinating stuff. Philip, thank you so much for speaking to me about your research. That's Philip Highland, Professor of Psychology at Maynooth University.

And, you know, we talk about grief in various forms on this program. So this morning we're talking about pet grief. Lots of you are getting in touch with your own stories about your pets. I'm going to read a few of them out. We lost our nine-year-old border territory. Luna two and a half months ago. When your pet dies, you're losing your best friend, loyal companion, biggest cheerleader and probably happiest and most cheerful member of your family. Having pets gives us a precious glimpse into the eternal beauty of nature of appreciating the simple

things. Walking with Luna gave me peace and calm like no other pastime. She taught us all what unconditional love really is. Another one here are Rosie, a Jack Russell, passed away in my arms one week ago. She climbed all three peaks in the UK, travelled in boats, ferries, motorhomes, and in the last three years in my husband's backpack. She was my colleague as a psychotherapist, welcoming clients and sitting at the feet of those most distressed, offering her soft warm coat for stroking and comfort. She grew up alongside our children as their sibling. She will live in our hearts. And one more. Can I tell you about my cat, Jessica? Yes, you can. She died three years ago, aged 18. She was my soulmate and seemed to sense my every move.

and know my thoughts. She was a beautiful spirit and I miss her so much. I have another cat now and I love her too, but I haven't got that unique bond I had with Jessica. Keep your thoughts coming in as I move on to my next guest. It's nearly a decade since my next guest. Actor Haley Squires first came onto Woman's Hour to talk about her brilliant breakthrough role

starring in Ken Loach's award-winning film I, Daniel Blake. Since then, she's appeared in a host of gritty, emotional and memorable roles across TV, film and theatre, including adult material, The Essex Serpent and Death of England, closing time at the National Theatre. Well, she's currently on our screens in the long-awaited return of BBC spy thriller, The Night Manager. Haley plays Sally Price Jones, second in command to Tom Hiddleston's Jonathan Pine as they navigate a dangerous world of international espionage, deception and moral ambiguity.

Here's a taster. Okay, I'll trace the number you sent me. Send me. It belongs to Roxana Bologna. She's Colombian but works as a shipping broker out of Miami. Haven't been able to link her to Yaco or Hollywood yet. All right. We need to talk to her now.

How serves to do you? What? We're watchers, Alex. Eyes and ears. We're not the show, remember? Haley, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, thank you for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure. I'm so in. I'm invested. I've waited 10 years.

I'm really pleased. Sally Price-Jones, brand new character. What do we need to know about her? Or where to start. So when you first meet Sally, she's part of Jonathan Pine, as we know him from 10 years ago, is living under an alias. And his name is Alex Goodwin. And he heads up a very low-level surveillance team for MI6 called The Night Owls.

and she is part of that team. And she's always had an eye on Alex Goodwin and has sensed that there was probably a pass that she doesn't know about. And then when it all kicks off, for want of a better phrase, at the end of episode one, she ends up following him out into the field and essentially becomes his right-hand woman throughout the series.

You are brilliant in it, as you are in everything we see you in. was this a no-brainer when they had the script came to you? Yeah, absolutely. I knew Tom a little bit before. We'd both been on a show called The Essex Serpent, but we didn't really have many scenes together. But we'd had chats and I'd seen them at various events. And obviously I knew the first series of the night manager

and the writing being so fantastic. And then found out that Georgie Banks-Davis was directing it. And once I'd spoken to her about it, it was absolutely a no-brainer. Your character and Tom Hiddleston's character who are working together both from very different worlds and they're very different from each other. Yeah, I keep saying Tom's really tall and I'm really short.

That's one of the things that you'll definitely notice. But yeah, they do come from quite different worlds. Although, I mean, Tom and myself come from quite different worlds but within the show, I suppose they both have very similar experiences and a part of this secret world of British intelligence and sort of living in the shadows. So they do share that between the two of them. Yeah, I mean, I don't know enough about British intelligence,

but I would imagine it's very, very, there's a certain sort of person that kind of is in that world to infiltrate it as someone from a working class background. It's quite a thing. And then I sort of thought, you know, drawing parallels between that and you and generally enacting. Yeah. And being in a...

Trying to break. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I mean, I think class is something that in one form or another, it's always going to be something that will exist in Britain and the difficulties that come with class. But equally, when we were talking about the night manager, there was no, I don't think class came into it in terms of the casting

or why they ended up going with me. think it was more to do with the fact that David Farr, the writer and creator, and then Georgie, the director, wanted to fill the series with as many different voices as possible. And, you know, once we, we end up in Columbia, you get such an array of different voices and different people from all walks of life. So I think that's something that this series does really well. And also, it's sort of irrelevant, your background in it, you know, the class thing. I didn't, I didn't feel like that was a, I was like, oh, I wonder what world she's from. I wonder what You're just a brilliant woman who's, you know.

Who's broken into it and is just a part of it. I think the thing that it does slightly give me is probably a slightly cut in tone at times. It sort of balances out. She grounds Tom's character. She grounds pine. No nonsense. Yeah.

You mentioned Columbia. You filmed in some very glamorous places. London. Columbia. How much do you love Colombia? Where in Colombia were you? I was in Medellín, but the team were all over the place. I think they ended up being in about four different locations across Colombia.

And Spain and Swansea. And Swansea, which was really gorgeous. And myself and Tom and Paul shot there. I think we were there for about four days and we had the most beautiful time. Yeah, we were really very, very lucky with the locations we got to go to. You are often play characters that have been through the mill emotionally. There's a lot of depth of the night manager, but was it also fun to be something that was just loud, action-packed?

It was kind of, it was sort of a different skill, to be honest, because Sally has so much information that needs to be communicated to Pine and equally to the audience. The story is so complex and there's so many twists and turns and you never know, you're never quite sure of who's operating on what level, and she has a lot of information. So it was sort of a different skill to be able to communicate that and find ways to play with that.

So although it wasn't necessarily emotionally driven, it was a lot to do with the text and the story. So that was quite fun because it was a different thing to tap into. I'm going to take you from one skill set to another one because you're currently on stage in the West End in All My Sons. It's been getting rave reviews. Massive contrast from the night manager. And what a cast.

It's you, Brian Cranston, Marianne-Baptiste, and Papa Essie do. Tell us about Anne, playing Anne. Yes, it is very different to the night manager. It's Arthur Miller's, I think it was his first play. It plays over 80 years old. I see it's American. And she is, she was the girl next door who's returned home. And she goes to visit the family of the Kellers, who she grew up with.

She was the girlfriend of their oldest son who went missing in action in the war. Her dad was the business partner of Joe Keller, who Brian Cranston. and plays, and her father has been put in prison for selling 40 parts to the army that caused planes to crash and pilots to die. So she's been through the mill and she comes home with the intention to marry their younger son, Chris, who Papa plays. And it's set over one day and into the early hours of the following morning when a whole bunch of truths come out.

What's it like being in that cast and getting on stage with them every night? beautiful. It's really lovely. They're just, all of them are the nicest people. I've spoken about this before. I think actors have a tendency, we sometimes can be quite sort of sycophantic with how much we love people and adore people and all of that. But what we, what we really have as a company is a huge amount of respect for each other. And that was there from day one, on and off the stage. And we haven't stopped unpicking the play and finding new things. Wonderful. I mean, I can't wait to come and see it, but only because it's you and Marianne Jean-Baptiste, who is the best person.

Well, yeah, massive fan girl. She's been in that chair right where you are. There's all this big trend on social media at the minute, throwback to 2016. So I'm going to throw back to your 2016. And it was your breakthrough role 10 years ago. Ken Loach's, I, Daniel Blake. Yeah. What did you take from that experience?

I mean, I'm looking at people's social media. You can see where people started and what's happened in 10 years. Yeah, what are your reflections? I can't believe it's been 10 years for a start. I, Daniel Blake, for me, will always, obviously personally in what it did for my career, it will always be a very important thing and to have had that opportunity and the fact that people still talk to me about it. But as an experience and being part of something so important,

I think it's always going to remain relevant and potent and something that people keep coming back to and keep talking about. I don't think that's ever going to go away, really. And we've just been having a conversation about women and debt. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's January and people are really feeling the pinch. So, you know, it really tapped into something about society, didn't that? Yeah, the times don't seem to be getting any easier, I don't think.

And so pieces of art like that remain important for people. But you're writing as well, aren't you? Yes. When I've had a good night's sleep by, aren't you? Yeah, I was going to say, when do you find the time? And what kind of stories do you want to see more of? So I am writing There's a few different TV projects and a film

that have been in development for a while because it all takes time My thing is always It's never really sort of politically led Or with a real agenda It's more just telling stories about people that I know Or things that I've read Or things that I've experienced

That have sparked something in my head So it isn't ever like I kind of go I need to I need to make sure I write more working class stories It doesn't come from that place it comes from more of a place of experience and truth and then wanting to communicate, I suppose that communicate a part of the human experience

and go, does anybody else feel that? Or does anybody else experience that? Well, something that you know about, which I'm slightly jealous of, is that your dad ran a video shop. He did. And you mentioned that in the office and everybody was reminiscing to anyone who was...

It's a magical time, magical time. So is that when you first got hooked into acting and filmed just by watching, having access to all of it. Yeah, that's kind of how it happened. My dad is a massive film fan and we always had films in the house

and it was about the consumption all different, from like Disney cartoons through to Scorsese films. It was just about consuming films and just sort of fell in love of it from there and then decided that was what I wanted to try and do. And thank goodness you did. And I will be consuming the episode of Night Manager

that was, was it that came out last night? It was yesterday's, haven't watched it. What day is it today? Is it Friday? Sunday, Sunday. Episode 4 is on on Sunday. I've got that written in front of me. I could have just read that.

Haley Squires, thank you so much for coming in and talking to us on Woman's Hour. And she's right, you know, you can watch episodes 1 to 3 of the Night Manager on IPlayer, and episode 4 will be available on Sunday. Thanks to all of you getting in touch with your messages. Do join me tomorrow for weekend, Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Shari Val, and I've been investigating fraud for

decades. Now I'm shining light on the secret techniques criminals use to steal your money. With insight from guest experts and the real people involved in these scams, so you can see the fraudsters coming before it's too late. That's the new series of scam secrets. Listen now on BBC Sounds.