Woman's Hour - Nour Swirki in Gaza, Baroness Falkender's secrets, Divorce, Alzheimer's, Hot flushes

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

We have been bringing you women's voices from Israel and Gaza since the start of the war. Yesterday, you will have heard on the programme Rachel Goldberg, mother of a 23-year-old hostage Hersh Goldberg Polin, kidnapped by Hamas from a music festival in Israel. Today, we hear from a mother in Gaza. Nour Swirki is a journalist with two children living in Khan Younis, a city in the southern strip of Gaza, with her husband, mother and sister - they have had to leave their home in Gaza City for safety reasons and relocate to the south - a fraught journey many more Palestinians are expected to make. Due to the difficulties in speaking live to guests in Gaza, we asked Nour to record for us voice notes explaining the situation she and her family are currently in. She and her husband continue to work as journalists while her wider family look after her children - a son and daughter aged 10 and 12.The ABC News Breakfast guest host Imogen Crump has been praised for helping to normalise symptoms of perimenopause, after she experienced a severe hot flush on live television. Emma Barnett asks her about what happened.Research from the University of Bristol demonstrates that women can lose out financially when they divorce. The number of couples seeking legal advice during divorce proceedings is falling, and old-fashioned procedures that disadvantage women are being used. To find out more, and get advice on how to make sure you are not penalised financially, Emma speaks to financial planner Megan Jenkins and family lawyer Amanda McAlister.The NHS is launching a new study into Alzheimer's disease, the most common form of dementia, which affects around twice as many women as men. The study, a joint project with Alzheimer’s Research UK and Alzheimer’s Society, will use a blood test to detect for the disease at an early stage. There is currently no single test for Alzheimer's and patients can wait years for a diagnosis. Dr Susan Mitchell, Head of Policy at Alzheimer’s Research UK, one of the charities leading this study talks to Emma.Emma talks to journalist Linda McDougall about her new biography of Marcia Williams, who went on to become Baroness Falkender. Linda hopes to shift public perception of the Baroness as a Svengali figure who influenced Prime Minister Harold Wilson during the sixties and seventies, and gain recognition for her achievements for the Labour Party. Linda's alternative history is called Marcia Williams, The Life and Times of Baroness Falkender.Presenter: Emma Barnett Studio manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. I hope you're doing OK wherever you join us from today. Shortly, we will bring you a report of a woman's experience existing in Gaza at the moment. This is following on from my conversation yesterday with a woman whose son was kidnapped and taken hostage by Hamas from that music festival in Israel, which became a scene of a massacre. We will also bring you the latest on how women can try to avoid missing out financially in divorce settlements. A lot, it seems, can hang on the value of pensions. And the amazing life and times of Baroness Falkender,

the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson's right-hand woman. You may not have heard of her. You may vaguely remember her. Maybe you remember her being referred to as Baroness Forkbender or being decried as a political dominatrix. One woman now wants to reframe her life and legacy. We'll find out more. But it is a clip of another woman, an Australian editor,

that has gone viral after she had to stop what she was doing on live TV because she was having a hot perimenopausal flush. Have you seen this? I want to ask you about it. I'll be talking to that woman, Imogen Crump, on today's programme about that moment, how it felt to be in that moment. She was talking about politics at the time and how she felt owning it. We'll play that clip shortly, but I wanted to get your mind working now on those split-second decisions where you've had to make up your mind there and then whether to be really honest about something or cover it up. You're going to hear from Imogen

why she decided to say on live TV, and it's now gone around the world, sorry, just hang on a minute. I'm having a really bad hot flush. Have you done the same? It doesn't have to be about hot flushes. It may have been because you want somebody to know what you're going through. It doesn't mean you can't carry on with what you're doing.

There's the other side of that, which is you don't want to have had to say something like that because you don't wish to be judged even more. It is those split-second decisions I'm interested in to hear from you today about. You're always very generous. Please, if you can, get in touch. 84844, that's the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website or WhatsApp or VoiceNote. The number for that, 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply, so do watch out for that. But let me know those split second decisions where you've had to decide whether to be honest or not. I mean, I've talked about being in period pain live on TV. And, you know, there's some interesting reactions around the table. I was doing it with a table full of panellists of people talking like me. And, you know, it was really relevant to the

discussion. That's why I brought it up. But it was also really hurting. But I've definitely not done it in certain discussions, let's say, on Newsnight. I feel I could do it here as well on Woman's Hour if need be. But, you know, what the hell, I am in a lot of pain right now. So you let us know, get in touch for the same reason, I should say. And when you've made those decisions, what's it been like afterwards as well? It's another good question to think about. 84844, that's the number you need to text. And as ever, anything else you hear on the programme, please don't be a stranger.

Now, we've been bringing you women's voices from Israel and Gaza since Hamas launched an unprecedented attack on Israelis just over a month ago. Yesterday you will have heard on the program Rachel Goldberg, mother of a 23-year-old hostage, Hirsch Goldberg Poland, who was kidnapped by Hamas from a music festival in Israel that then became the scene of a massacre and he's presumed to be in Gaza having had one of his arms blown off. The Israeli government has said there will be no pause in the fighting until its citizens, more than 200 hostages, are released. Today we hear from a mother in Gaza. Noor Swerki is a journalist with two children living in Khan

Yunis, a city in the southern strip of Gaza, with her husband, mother and sister. They've had to leave their home in Gaza City for safety reasons and relocate to the south, a fraught journey many more Palestinians are expected to make. Due to the difficulties in speaking live to guests in Gaza at the moment, we asked Noor to record for us some voice notes explaining the situation she and her family are currently in. She and her husband both continue to work as journalists,

while her wider family look after their children, a son and a daughter ages 10 and 12. Me and my family evacuated from the Gaza City to the southern area of the Gaza City. We are together in an apartment, in a rented apartment in the Southern area. We do our best to survive there. I left them with my mother and sister and I keep praying that all of them will stay

alive until I'm back. I pray to God if something happened to any of us it would be happening to all of us in the same moment so no one left behind no one left alone to cry or to feel this kind of feelings. I know it's not a wish it's a miserable wish but this hard and tough time make it like a wish. We know what is happening around us is higher than our capacities as civilians, as innocent people who are only looking to survive under this fire. They keep asking for some snacks, some chocolate, these things. They thought that it's available in the market and I'm

doing my best to buy some for them but currently the markets are empty from all of these kinds of food, even the bread, the basic kind of food, it's also almost running out from the market. So to take care of their nutrition, the kinds of their food, the hygiene of them, it's not easy because there is no supplies. There is no fuel supplies, there is no water supplies. Oh my god, this is hard. They keep expressing their feelings of fear and the night they sleep beside me. My son Jamal, he hugged every single moment and says to me, I love you, I love you, I love you. He was hugging me before, but not like these moments. He just keeps hugging me and saying, I love you, don't leave us, we don't want to die.

There are explosions outside, so are you safe or not when you are out? And when it's the night, it's a horrific situation for all the family members, and particularly for women. Night is witnessing explosions and targets from the Israelis. It's a horrific situation for human being, for women, for children to be in this situation under this fire with this darkness. And sometimes we lose the connection with the world. We don't have network of phone network

and we don't have any access for the internet. So in case I have any one of my family members who is injured, how I call the ambulance? How I will call for support for others if I don't have this access for phone calls or internet? Noor, leaving us these voice notes, as you can hear, also went on to tell us about the challenges women around her are facing. Generally, for women who are subjected to this war and to its suffering, it's not an easy situation at all for them to survive and to keep their privacy,

to keep their well-being and their lifestyle. Some of them are pregnant, some of them are waiting to deliver their babies in the upcoming days. Some of them only have the clothes that they were wearing while evacuating, they don't have any other. Some are taking care of a huge number of family members. They have to take care of the food of their families and to cook with some wood, and not with the gas system or something like this. They have to take care of the hygiene, of the showering of their family members,

of taking care of their clothes, clean and take care of their supplies, which is needed like medicine, medications and something like this. Sometimes we have only two meals per day. Sometimes we have water limitation for each person. There is a huge number of women who have been killed in this war. Women and children are around 70% of the fatalities of this war and there are a huge number of the injuries of this war. In addition, they are suffering

there outside, they lost their homes and they are now displaced. They lost their beloved ones, their sons and daughters, their husbands. Generally, for more than all the human beings, the civilians who are living in the Gaza Strip, under this war, they just want this war to come to an end. They want a ceasefire, and they're asking for it. They're asking to be back for their normal life. They want to live in a peaceful situation. They don't want to lose their lives and their beloved ones.

Noor Swegi and Khan Yunus in southern Gaza, who works as a journalist and was able to send us and record for us those series of voice notes we could share with you on Women's Hour this morning. As I said, she has relocated. She's had to leave her home with her family in Gaza City for safety reasons. She's relocated to the south. That is a fraught journey, of course, that many more are expected to make in the coming days and weeks, depending on availability of that route. And due to the difficulties in speaking live to guests in Gaza, Noor was able to re-voice and voice, excuse me, record, I should say,

those voice notes to share with you this morning. So thank you very much to her. And you can catch up if you didn't hear our interview yesterday with Rachel Goldberg, who is the mother of a hostage who was seized and kidnapped by Hamas, her 23-year-old son going to a music festival. You can catch up with what the latest is from what's going on in her family on BBC Sounds. And you can catch up on any of the programmes, of course, there through looking up Woman's Hour.

Now, I've been asking you this morning to get in touch, and many of you are doing so, about those split-second decisions where you've had to decide whether to say something or not. And I'll come to those messages in a moment. You've been very generous. Keep them coming in. They may relate to what we're about to talk about. There may be something completely different. But have you ever had to say, I'm sorry, I'm having a hot flush while you're at work?

One woman has done that, except quite a few people have now seen it. Millions, in fact, because she did it live on television on Australian national TV. Have a listen to this clip from ABC News Breakfast. The latest on the prime minister's visit to China. Yes, another pardon, Michael. Big chill, but the PM doesn't pander yet. So the bilateral meeting between Australia and China, Anthony Albanese and Chinese. I'm so sorry. I could keep stumbling through this, but I am having such a perimenopausal right now, live on air. I'm so sorry. Imogen, the point about this is that we need to make

it normal to have these kinds of conversations. And I love you for even saying it. Imogen Crump joins me now. She's the editor of the University of Melbourne's research news platform, Pursuit. And as you could hear there, she's a regular paper reviewer on that particular programme in Australia. Imogen, hello. Hello, Emma. How are you? I'm fine. How are you? How's your temperature right now? I mean, we're not joking about it, but come on. My temperature is moderate

right now. I will let you know if it spikes as we go on. You better had. You're on Woman's Hour, so we're okay with that. Take me there. What was going on? Because live TV, just like live radio, it's very real. Yeah, it is very real. It's a regular slot that I do, much like radio stations and television programs in the UK have. They'll have a journo who comes in and talks through the big stories. And it was quite a normal morning. We were talking about interest rate rises and the Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's trip to China, which is a big thawing in relations. And I got to the point where I was talking about those bilateral meetings and I had what can only be described as molten lava that rolls up from your feet to the tip

of your head with needle spikes and you can't think and I just could not get the words Xi Jinping out of my mouth. And so I just, I had to explain what was happening, or I would look bad at my job. It's interesting as well, because the other side of it is by saying it, some people, and I'm seeing this on the messages we're getting from some of our listeners this morning, they also fear they'll look bad at their job. It's kind of, some people view it as a lose-lose. Yeah, I think for a lot of women it is a catch-22. And I think I was lucky enough to have A, the response of Lisa Miller, who is one of the presenters on the program who immediately stepped in and said, of course we should be honest about this. And Michael Rowland as well was very supportive.

But it's, you know, I think in that moment you're kind of thinking in bullet points, right? So I was kind of thinking how do I explain what's happening without telling the truth? If I said I was feeling poorly or, you know, I had to say something and so it was a very quick decision to kind of say, well, no, this is the reality of what's happening and I can't say the words Xi Jinping right now and Lisa said this should be normal not necessarily on national television but

a lot of women 50% of the population go through it at some point in their lives. How's the reaction be do you know what um genuinely lovely uh and from all walks of life like uh very supportive i work at the university of melbourne uh and i was in a meeting this morning and one of my very senior male colleagues said to me at the end of the meeting said oh I just want to talk about Imogen's appearance on the ABC it raised uh it helped me raise a conversation with my wife about her perimenopause and then that flowed on to a conversation with our two teenage daughters which I didn't expect to be having for another 30 years or so. But, you know, I think it's I prefer it wasn't my menopause, perimenopause they were talking about.

But I think if people are having open and honest conversations about an issue that everyone knows happens but doesn't necessarily talk about, then that's a good thing. It is. And, you know, a lot of people getting in touch to say as such, but I imagine it is just a bit odd for you that it's you and your body as well, you know, because I've seen this has been written up around the world, you know, the New York Post, the British press. It's quite a thing, I imagine,, the British press. It's quite a

thing, I imagine, for you right now. It's very strange. It's very, very strange. But I think as a journalist and a former BBC journalist, I am much more used to talking about the story than being in the story. And it does feel very awkward sometimes. And then other times, you know, I walked to the bakery for lunch today and this woman stopped me in the street and said, oh, I saw it go out live and I stood up on the couch and I clapped and I scared my cats and you know if that's if that's there's so much there's so much in that Imogen you know I know there's so much to pick apart so much we could do a whole hour on that you know the fact that her response was to stand on a sofa and a cat's response and

the clap I know I know but it has been really positive and you know I've got I've got stories from really personal stories from women saying you know I left my incredibly high-powered, high-paying job because my corporate wouldn't take into account my perimenopause. And then other people, other women saying, my husband sent me this because he wants me to know that other people are feeling the same way I am. So it's interesting. There is so many stories and if they're coming out and they're making women feel better, then I'm happy, even though it feels weird. That it's your body and you.

But you made that decision and I think you did it really well and even the fact that you slightly, you know, there's an irony, isn't there? You sort of bumble the word perimenopausal, as you say in that clip, which I think is almost the most perfect way of doing it. Not that you were planning it because, you know, I haven't been at that stage yet. But the women in my life I've been closest to, including my own mother, who's explained how it feels to me, I think it is important to try to communicate what it is. And yet at the same time, the reality, not for everyone, but for a lot of women, they can carry on

in whatever they're doing at that moment. They just need to have that moment. And it's that nuance that often gets lost and people are very scared to try and deal with, aren't they? Oh, I think so. I think, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think for whatever reason, menopause is a much scarier word than puberty or period or, you know, a variety of other words. But it's, and, you know, I learned something today by talking to one of our University of Melbourne endocrinologists who got in touch saying it's actually called the menopausal transition.

And I was like, oh, well, there's a whole new vernacular I don't know about. Yeah. You're right. There is a nuance. There's a nuance of still being capable but still dealing with something and wanting for people to meet you there. And you don't have to say it. There's no rule. But if you need to, what then happens shouldn't be. For instance, there's a message we just got, which said, I was in two work meetings. This is from Dorothy, who's listening. Good morning. With men and women.

And both times I owned up, as she puts it, to having a menopause or hot flush, hoping to break the stigma and be honest. And the silence hit me like a wall. I couldn't believe that none of the women who are a bit older than me, they didn't say a thing. No, don't worry, we've been there. Or would you like some water? Absolute silence.

And, you know, that's going to be a reality for some, no matter even if you read a message like this from Tilly, I wear my hot flushes like a cape of honour, no shame. It is also about the response that you have. And it's great that on TV, you had a good response as well, you know, that you weren't made to feel awkward. But Kerry says here, I had a hot flush in an interview for a support role job with the police. Mid question, I could feel it and then I couldn't remember the question. Thankfully, I could still think enough to tell them what was happening. They stopped the interview, gave me a glass of water.

And when I was ready to continue, they asked the question again. I asked at the end of the interview if it would go against me and they said no. On the contrary, it displayed integrity and honesty. And I got the job. So there you go. Well done, Tilly. That's great. Yeah, so it's a whole range of messages.

Tilly was there with just the one before. That was Kerry. And Laura just says here, I once burst into tears about something trivial in a meeting. The room was filled with a crew mainly of men whom I'd never met before. However, I felt the need to announce I was on my period and was always very emotional during this time. We carried on with the meeting it was never mentioned again I still work there receiving

the same respect as I always have so we're getting a range a range of responses uh Imogen and is there anything you you feel like you're you're going to do with this moment now do you think you're going to carry on sort of try to talk about this space it's not your usual content as you say it's not my usual content at all I think well yes I mean I talk about it with my husband my family my friends and I think it's it's just a broadening of that conversation right beyond typically talking to other women because like I was saying I think everyone knows it happens it's just acknowledging it happens and then encouraging people to have the right response and hopefully next generation or even you, younger ones just behind me are going to have a totally different experience of perimenopause. And they won't end up in the New York Post for having a hot flush on telly. Get it framed. Put it up in your loo and get it framed.

That is what your job should be today. OK, do it while you can. Because if you don't get things framed straight away, they just go in a pile. I tried to deal with this in my own house yesterday. Imogen, thank you very much for talking to us. Normally talking about other things, but Imogen Crum, editor of the University of Melbourne's research news platform, Pursuit,

who does a regular newspaper review. If you're a fan of that particular Australian TV show, you'll know her. But if not, she's come to a whole new audience. Another one here, though, very different viewpoint. What is wrong with women these days? I'm 71. I had a hysterectomy at 43, working hard, wound prolapsed.

I just got on with it. No time to think. I just laughed through the hot flushes and got on with it. No name on that message, but another viewpoint I wanted to bring to you. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now. Now, new research done by the University of Bristol shows that women are more likely to lose out financially in a divorce, especially if they try to, ironically, do it cheaply with no legal advice. On top of this, different research suggests that the Duxbury formula, which uses figures like age, income and life expectancy to determine how much money each party receives in a clean break divorce, as it's called, also results in women losing out financially. Proposals for reform of divorce finance laws, which were last updated 50 years ago, are currently being considered by the Law Commission. To understand more, Megan Jenkins

joined me, a chartered financial planner who carried out the research into the Duxbury formula, and Amanda McAllister, managing partner at McAllister Family Law. I began by asking Megan to explain the Duxbury formula more to us. So the Duxbury formula is a formula that calculates what the capital amount a receiving party should receive in a divorce instead of periodic payments. So spousal maintenance, for example. So it kind of gives you that capital sum that should be used to live on for the rest of your life. And Duxbury, the name is from a previous case. Is that right? That's correct. So the Duxbury formula was created in 1992 as a result of the Duxbury v Duxbury case.

A divorce case? Yes, divorce case. A divorce case. OK, so you looked into this and it's not that old, this formula, because sometimes when we have these things, they're hanging over from the 18th century and you think, well, this doesn't work anymore. We're talking about the 90s and yet you say it doesn't work anymore. Why?

So the Duxbury formula uses various assumptions on investment return, life expectancy, state pension and taxation. And in 30 years, those things have changed quite dramatically. And so the other thing that it also uses is averages. So for example, if we take life expectancy, it will use the average life expectancy for your age at the time. And if we take a 50 year old, that average life expectancy is 87. But a 50 year old also has a one in four chance of living to 95. And that can make a huge difference on the sustainability and longevity of your funds. And so whilst the duct free formula works as a good starting point,

there are flaws in using certain assumptions. And particularly difficult for women. What are the issues more specifically for women? I know you talked about life expectancy, but women tend to live longer as well. Is that your point as well? Exactly. And when we looked at these cases, a majority of the receiving parties were women. And often going through a divorce, it can be a really unsettling time. And you often don't want to take as much risk with the funds that you receive. And so when we take the assumptions that the Duxbury formula uses on investment return, that might not be appropriate for somebody that has a cautious attitude to risk. And if you've come through a really unsettling time, such as

a divorce, you may feel a lot more cautious with your funds. And so that's another flaw of the Duxbury formula is that it doesn't take into account people's risk appetite when it comes to investing. Amanda, what do you make of that? I mean, I know you know very much how expensive divorce can be, but why women seem to be worse off? I think the thing to remember, as Megan just said, is the Duxbury formula is a starting point and from a court's perspective they have to capitalise maintenance payments wherever possible. Sometimes it isn't possible but the court has to they have to start somewhere and in my experience the court will look at Duxbury calculations and then they will look at a woman's

individual need and this is what is what is important what I find sometimes is a lot of women have divorce lethargy they've been through a really difficult divorce and what they don't want is to go through proceedings again so when a lump sum is offered to them, they're very often inclined to take it rather than, as Megan said, looking at, hold on a minute, is this going to be enough? Let's look at what this is going to provide. But unfortunately, women do come worse off sometimes in these scenarios, because they're quite keen to accept a lump sum and not go through the litigation again. So I suppose there's a couple of different points there about why it can be that women don't get what they're meant to get. If I can just put it as bluntly as that, it might

be also where their risk level is, where they're up to with the energy levels to go through this. But I suppose from your point of view, it's just interesting to hear as on the legal side, whether you think the system is actually set against women, because I know there'll be a lot of men who say, well, I don't feel like that. I don't think the system is set against women, because as I said, the court has to have regard to a person's individual need. So if, for example, a Duxbury calculation, I had a similar case about three weeks ago. Duxbury calculation spits out 250 for my client. And my gut feeling was this is insufficient given her particular circumstances. And what I did in that situation, I connected my client with a financial advisor similar to Megan who could forecast what that lump sum would provide her with. And that really did open her eyes, actually, and said, Amanda, I'm totally with you. And I said,

look, we're going to look to negotiate something outside of this Duxbury fund. Okay, so as you say, it's a starting point. But there's research by the University of Bristol, which shows women are more likely to lose out financially in a divorce. So from your point of view, that's not necessarily the system. It's not necessarily the system. The difficulty is it's the cost for people to get results, the right results. So, you know, I have cases constantly in court where there's this legal fees, 150, 200,000 pounds. And the difficult or the problem with litigating a matter is it then depletes the capital that's available for division. It doesn't particularly affect women who are in a high net worth marriage. But where there is a small amount of capital in the pot and that capital has been wasted litigating that's where

it becomes a problem. I know also this concern about pensions as well you know more visible assets like the house are actually sometimes less valuable than for instance a husband's pension or an ex-husband. Again I'm glad you've raised pensions because this is an area which really does cause me concern sometimes especially when ladies contact me for a second opinion because that's my specialism, pensions and divorce. And they'll very often say, oh, I've been offered this lump sum or I've been offered the house in lieu of pension. And when I ask these ladies, well, do you know actually

what the pension is going to produce? They have no idea. That exercise has never been done. And how can you determine whether something is fair and reasonable without knowing what, you know, if you did take half the pension, what is that going to produce? So again, it's absolutely fundamental to use people like Megan, to use actuaries to calculate what an offer that is being advanced by your husband is going to provide. And the unfortunate thing is expert reports do cost money, which comes out of the pot. Do you think men, I mean, I know I'm stereotyping here, but from your experience,

do you think men approach divorce differently? I think, well, it's like anything, isn't it? We always sort of joke as matrimonial lawyers sometimes that sometimes wife's expectations are high, but very often husbands think, oh, well, I don't have to pay. And again, it's how people are guided through a process. People have a lot of moral views. So a gentleman I saw a couple of weeks ago was absolutely astonished when I told him his wife would be entitled to half his pension. They'd been married for 40 years. And he was astonished by this. To the extent he walked out and said, look, you need to go and get a couple of other opinions because I can tell that his advice isn't what you expected. Now, again, in today's society, that amazes me that somebody would still have that view.

Is he getting anything from his wife? Well, they divided the capital. They've just not sorted out pensions. And again, that's the case where the wife had taken 50% of the assets on the basis that he keeps his pension, which was crazy. I mean, so that's for you. That's a blind spot you don't want women to have. It's very clear it's your specialism and it's an important one. But I suppose things must have changed as well, where women are bringing their own pensions to the table. have a few bills to pay. Or for example, women pay less into their pension when they take out maternity leave. So it is very rare and unusual actually to find that a woman's pension is of the same value as a man's, unless they're, for example, in the NHS or they're doing similar jobs such as teaching, et cetera. That's fascinating and

a very difficult time for people you know I imagine people listening to this who might need this advice right now they can you know they probably want to just not have to try and process this but they do need to and and that lack of energy that you discussed is also a part of it. Megan just to come back to you what would would you like to change? What are you calling for? So the main thing that I would like to change is reviewing the assumptions that are used in Duxbury to begin with. So there is a working party that are proposing to meet next month to review those assumptions. And I think to Amanda's point about Duxbury being a starting point is for it to be well, more widely used that Duxbury is a starting point and engaging with financial planners who can use cash flow modelling software and projection software to show what a lump sum will actually mean for somebody over the long term and engaging with a financial planner early on in the process. Thank you there to our guests putting us in the picture, Megan Jenkins and Amanda McAllister speaking about divorce. Some brilliant messages. Thank

you so much for this, talking about Imogen, who we're hearing talks about having a hot flush live on TV. Philippa, I used to call my hot flushes power surges as a way to take power back, not feel diminished. I love that. Just a word of encouragement reads this anonymous message. Good morning to you. I suffered horribly with my periods. Long, heavy, bad PMS, short cycle. I literally dreaded the menopause.

But then I sailed through it at 44 with virtually no symptoms. So it isn't always dreadful. And one from tony one of our male listeners we have millions of you thank you for listening i had oestrogen implants as a pre-treatment for my prostate cancer my female friends thought it was hilarious when we were out and had to undo my buttons and fan myself when the prickly heat struck i had implants for six months i enjoyed every flush reads this and another one sar says, I'm a practicing menopause care doctor. I get brain fog sometimes during my consultations and I'm open with my patients when it happened.

And one more, I'm conflicted about this. I'm so conflicted about this. So anyone who's feeling sad or ill or off colour or has an injury should interrupt their work and tell everyone. Doing a board presentation, dealing with a customer in a shop. Is it sensible and practical? I'd rather shut up and get on with it. I don't think we're saying everyone, but I think we're talking about when those moments happen and what you do about it. And it's fascinating to hear how you deal with it. And I get it won't be for everyone. Now, let me tell you about something else. The NHS is launching a new study into Alzheimer's, the most common form of dementia. And it's a disease that affects around twice as many women as men. The study, a joint project with Alzheimer's Research UK and Alzheimer's Society,

will use blood tests to try to detect for the disease at an early stage. There is currently no single test for Alzheimer's, and patients can wait years for a diagnosis. And so having a cheap and simple blood test, one that could potentially be carried out at a GP surgery, could make a huge difference to the way Alzheimer's disease is diagnosed and ultimately how it's treated. Dr. Susan Mitchell, head of policy at Alzheimer's Research UK, one of the charities leading this study, joins me now. Good morning.

Morning, Emma. Just tell us, I mentioned twice as many women as men have Alzheimer's. Do we know why before we get to this? Yeah, it's a really complicated situation. Probably part of this is about the mixture of factors which can influence whether or not you develop dementia. And Alzheimer's is one of the leading diseases that causes dementia. We do know that women live longer. And we do know that old age is a kind of essentially a risk factor for dementia. But that's not the whole reason. We do see a higher incidence of dementia among women

than men. So that's not the whole answer. There's more we need to understand about this. We don't understand fully the relationship of, for example, hormones, inflammation, other factors. So this is where we probably need more research. Okay. And it's just, you know, us trying to put us in the picture here and understand why that is the case. But you say complicated funding for a new study what are you hoping for yeah it's a really exciting project um the whole of the dementia field is a real turning point at the moment we have the first possible treatments that might change the progression of the diseases that cause dementia specifically alzheimer's disease uh they're in regulatory review at the moment but if they are made available in the uk they could really change the progress of people um developing alzheimer's disease um but we need to be able to find those people and the challenge is at the

moment many people simply don't get a diagnosis in england only two-thirds of people get any kind of diagnosis dementia or whether or not it's a specific the disease that causes it but we also have to wait a long time for the diagnosis and it's not necessarily very accurate if we're going to offer these treatments we actually need an accurate test and this is where something like a blood test would be so helpful so we do have blood tests that have been used in research studies that's lovely but we actually need to put them in the real world we always know things are a little bit more complicated in the real world so this project that we're doing with Alzheimer's Society is about testing blood tests actually in clinical practice within services in the UK. It's a much

broader population. We have a range of people with different other co-existing health conditions, a range of ethnicities, ages and backgrounds. And putting the blood test in practice is going to be the really interesting thing to make sure they're accurate, they're sensitive, and they're reliable. What would the study say with certainty that someone had Alzheimer's? So yeah, what the blood tests do is, and you know, there are array, and as I said, we need to try them in the real world, they will be able to tell you whether someone has got the presence of a particular protein in their brain. The blood tests we'll be looking at will be around the amyloid protein. This is the protein associated with Alzheimer's disease. And these first treatments will remove the amyloid. So

knowing if you've got the amyloid in your brain is really important for the treatment access. What we would say is the presence of amyloid is a really important indicator for whether or not you've got Alzheimer's, but you do do that in conjunction with a clinical assessment, as you would do for many other health conditions. So the blood tests would be done in conjunction with perhaps a cognitive assessment, a memory test, for example. But it's the combination of the two that is really powerful. And it's the blood test that's the really new bit.

And sorry, if you have that blood test and it gets out in the real world and then you find out about that protein, are you saying you can have treatment that would mean you wouldn't then suffer? Well, to be really clear on that the the drugs that we think could do that are being reviewed by the regulator in the uk at the moment to see if they're safe and effective so they if those are approved then yes the blood test would be part of the process to enable access to those drugs so it's quite a long pathway but it's really important and a really exciting time that's why you say it's at a turning point at the moment.

Because the other question, and I think this is, you know, about the grey areas sometimes to do with health, is how useful knowing you have something is if you can't yet do anything about it. Sometimes it can be worse. I mean, I think that's a really fair point. I think there has been a real stigma around finding out if you've got Alzheimer's or dementia, partly because for some people feel there is no hope we would argue that actually knowing if you are

developing dementia or one of the diseases that causes it is so important so that you can understand what's happening to you or to your loved one there is obviously support and you know wider reasons for getting that diagnosis uh so you know I absolutely agree having a treatment or intervention is is crucial, but it's really important more generally, and we'd really support people to try and get more diagnoses. And the funding for this particular development? Yeah, so this project is a co-project between the two charities, but we've been fortunate to get funding from the People's Postcode Lottery through their Dream Funds. So we've been really delighted to be able to work with that organisation with the money that they're offering us, which is £5 million to support the

project. I think it also enables us to actually do some awareness raising of the need to diagnose dementia within a broad range of communities. And from that, I mean, I know you say it's a long road, but for those who are already on that road, perhaps they're supporting someone or they're worried themselves about developing this. Do you have anything in terms of timescales you road. But for those who are already on that road, perhaps they're supporting someone or they're worried themselves about developing this. Do you have anything in terms of timescales you can say? Yeah, I mean, so several key points is this project is being funded over five years. I'm sure we'll get interim findings, which we will share as soon as we can. I think the other thing, as I said, is there are these new treatments being reviewed, and we expect to find out from the regulator early next year so I think we'll see a real change in what is made

available to patients in the next year or two completely understand there'll be people who have got loved ones or are facing symptoms of dementia which is a really difficult and uncertain time absolutely you know I think go talk to a GP or health professional if you're concerned about any of the symptoms around dementia. And, you know, we hope that things will change shortly. Thank you for talking to us this morning. Dr. Susan Mitchell, head of policy at Alzheimer's Research UK, one of the charities leading that study. We want to bring that to you this morning.

Many more messages still coming in. Another one here. It's so good people now talk openly about what was always referred to as women's problems. Coming back to Imogen going viral on Australian television for talking about her hot flush. I'm 75. When I started my periods, I was told never to mention them and definitely not to boys. I had no mother I could speak to. You wouldn't believe my embarrassment having to go to the chemist and ask for sanitary towels.

There was no self-service in those days. I'd often walk away because there was a queue and i couldn't bring myself to ask thank goodness times have changed for the better and that's from one of our 75 year old listeners it's not that long that it's been like that and i think it's worth remembering uh simon says i'm currently having medical treatment which gives me hot flushes needless to say my perimenopausal daughters offer me no sympathy some of our male listeners finding a way into this and having some experiences another Another one here. I'm a 42 year old woman, an anonymous message, who has returned to school to train as an actress. I'm in a very physical acting class. And when I

have a period, I have to wear triple layers. I leak into the chairs and sometimes on the floor. I've sat on stage sitting on one butt cheek as I'm praying I don't leak. I've had several times when young male students have noticed and have made jokes about me sweating onto chairs. And so it goes on. Another one here just to say I worked with a woman, Joanne says, in the US in her 70s. And she was regularly talking about hot flushes at the top of her lungs. I would feel uncomfortable. And it carries on.

And we just talked about divorce as well. And a few of you having very difficult times with this but one saying it's absurd that when women are supposedly equal to men so many still expect a meal ticket for life following a divorce why should women be entitled to support from their husbands at all it is anonymous that message i probably hazard a guess it's from a man and i did allude to how men feel about divorce and how the financial settlements work. But the point of that particular item was a development around when women are going for a divorce without any legal representation, what then happens to those settlements. And we could discuss that at length. In fact, I remember doing a phone in on this programme about divorce. We will come back to it, I'm sure, but thank you for your message. Let me come now to a political figure some of you will be familiar with, but others less so. Marcia Williams. Remember her? Harold Wilson's right-hand woman. Marcia, who became Baroness Falkander, is the subject of a new book by a journalist seeking to reframe her life and legacy since her death in 2019. Some of Baroness Falkender's critics resented her close relationship

with the Labour Prime Minister. She was ridiculed, among other things, as Baroness Forkbender in Private Eye and her image as a political dominatrix was cemented over the issue of Wilson's infamous Lavender List, so-called because it was a list of peerages to be handed out in his resignation honours written on violet-coloured paper. Her detractors said she'd decided the names on the list, not him, and it was proof of her control over the Labour Prime Minister. Widely reviled by many of her former colleagues to this day, Linda McDougall, the author of this new book, has just walked into the Woman's Hour studio and you're deciding,

Linda, we should know a bit more about this woman. Well, I Linda we should know a bit more about this woman. Well I think we should know a bit more about all women and this is my very tiny start. I suddenly discovered when I was over 80 that there was an advantage to being old. It's the first advantage I've ever found. When I started talking about Marcia and looking at her I realised that my own experience of the same period and how I was treated I'm not saying I was widely reviled but maybe just reviled every now and then but the treatment of women out at work generally gave me some clues as to what might have happened with Marcia and I kept looking and thinking she can't have been all bad she can't have been and I my husband who's now

not with us anymore but had been a Labour MP he'd retired in 2015 and we started to talk about Marcia and he he'd liked her he probably liked difficult women actually but he did like Marcia

and said you you know. So I started reading about her and that was how I began to get interested. That's how this began. And your husband, the late Austin Mitchell, who I spoke to a few times when reporting and interviewing. And I'm sure would be proud of you putting this together like this because a lot of research has gone into it. You've had

to talk to people some people didn't want to talk which was quite striking but just I mean there's one detail I think brings to life about her looking at tv schedules for Harold Wilson as to how meticulous she was she started as a secretary and she then became the right hand nevermind woman person to a prime minister. She was hugely influential. Tell us about the TV schedule. Well, what happened was she was sitting before the 1964 general election. She understood and Harold, they both understood how close it was going to be. It had been a long time from 13 years, I think, since Labour had last been in power. And so they knew it was going to be a close run thing.

And she was wondering how, you know, she thought she felt she was a details woman. And she looked at TV schedules for the night of the general election. And she discovered that between eight and nine, I think, Steptoe and Son, which was the most popular programme on BBC at the time, was scheduled to be on. And she was horrified because it's an old Labour story, but probably true, that Labour voters have their tea and then they get up and go out and vote before the polls close at nine o'clock. And so she came to the conclusion that this would be very bad. So she said to Harold, or now if I'd been Jo Haynes, I'd have said she ordered Harold, but I would... Jo Haynes. Jo Haynes was Harold Wilson's political advisor and the biggest,

the person from whom all the focused hatred of Marcia, Through him, it's channeled, really. So she went to Harold and said, why don't you talk to the director general of the BBC? At the time, the director general was called Hugh Carlton Green. And she explained the situation. And Harold rang Hugh Carlton Green and explained exactly what Marcia had decided. And Hugh Carlton Green, I think, was quite dry-witted. And he said, yeah, well, dry-witted. And he said,

yeah, well, I can see your point, he said, but what would you sooner have instead of this Steptoe and Son on the programme? And he said, well, I think, what about some Greek drama in the original Greek? So Hugh Carlton Green laughed and got the point and stepped to and can't son was moved for the night of the general election. And it was quite a close run. That's the punchline. There was three seats difference between the they had a three seat majority over the rest of the house. She, you know, in terms of her personal life to talk about what was going on at the backdrop, she married briefly was divorced and went on to have two children with a newspaper journalist. And again, a bit like we were just talking about going to the chemist and buying sandwich tarts. It was scandalous because she did all of this unmarried and in secret, having these children, as it were, carried on working all around it.

Let me sort of just say that she had only really ever had one job after she left university. She went to work for the Labour Party and was there fairly briefly before she transferred from the party in general to Harold in particular. So really, we're talking about the beginning of her whole life. And so what happened was they got into Downing Street in 1964. Life was good. They were phenomenally happy and did lots of, I mean, the Labour Party would tell you I think, the great differences between her and Harold. Harold had a happy marriage and a wife at home and two kids. Marcia really had nobody. She had a mum and a sister and a brother. She brought her brother back from the Middle East where he was a geologist and got him to work without pay for Harold during elections and things. He drove Harold around.

He and Harold became friendly. Her sister, Peggy, she got her a job at Downing Street as well as working for Mary Wilson. So I can see that she was lonely and she realised that she and Harold were sharing all their workday lives, but she had nothing else. So she had a series, began to have a series of what you might call quite unwise affairs, which were sort of quite disapproved of by Harold and others. But then she had a relationship with the political editor of the Daily Mail, which would seem extraordinary given the insight we have into what goes on in Downing

Street these days. It would be hardly credible. However, there weren't gates at the end of Downing Street then. And a journalist who had an appointment to see Harold one evening came up along Downing Street and recognised the political editor of the Daily Mail's car outside number 10, went up and had a look and realised to his huge embarrassment that inside the car was the political editor with his arms around Marcia Williams in a passionate embrace. So he rushed off into Downing Street and was even more amazed 10 minutes later when the two of them walked into the room, the political editor went over and offered a drink and everything seemed fine and chatty. The political editor was a married man with two children already.

And he and Marcia had their first child in 1968. The child was born in Hendon, in a nursing home in Hendon. And on the birth certificate, Joe Stone, who was Harold Wilson's good friend and his medical advisor, has signed the birth certificate as being present at the birth. So presumably he delivered the baby. All this was going on and no member of the public, no one out in the real world outside the Westminster bubble knew anything about the fact that people in Downing Street were having what were called illegitimate babies. Yes, and that was a much bigger thing then in Britain today are the subject of not married people. But I meant the stigma that was associated with that was total. That's exactly right. And because you've also got in the book the speculation that there was a sexual relationship between her and Harold Wilson.

I mean, something that has been picked up on from your book in some of the newspapers? Yes, I don't think it's really speculation. I think any woman would be amazed if they looked at the circumstances and there hadn't been some sort of sexual relationship between them in the beginning. And we should say that was never confirmed. It's probably always denied by the two of them publicly... Not always denied. Not always? Well, there's the famous story of when Harold was one day taking his wife out to lunch at a restaurant in the West End because it was their wedding anniversary or some such. Marcia found out about it, stormed round to Mary's house

when she got home and went to the front door and said these famous words, I've just got one thing to say to you. I had sex six times with your husband in the 1960s and it was unsatisfactory. Right. Well, there you go. Some good detail like this. It is good detail. But it's also important, I mean, not just to talk about her personal life here, because she was really running everything with him at this time.

But at the same time, she was pilloried for that. And she also was reported to have been extremely rude to him at times and extremely rude to others. And you've looked at this and come to a conclusion around drugs. Yeah, well, what I think is that it must have been fantastically difficult. I don't want to sound unsympathetic about the birth of her two children. I'm not at all. But she was in a very difficult situation. And if it hadn't been for the arrival of Private Eye, I think Private Eye was really important. It added something. It gave us a new freedom when it started saying things that people were having babies in Downing Street, etc., because everyone's got a right to know

what's going on, I guess. Anyway, I think that life was very difficult for her. And she was in the habit of taking amphetamines to get her through very busy days because she wrote a lot and she spoke a lot about working incredibly long hours and there were only really she and Harold when they're in opposition and then when they arrived in Downing Street we all know how much hard work people do so she was taking a lot of amphetamines but then we get the arrival of Harold's medical advisor who I've told you about. And there's a lot more detail in there. I'm afraid we're nearly out of time ourselves.

But I suppose the point is with what you've tried to do. The book is called Marcia Williams, The Life and Times of Baroness Falkender. Is there is a much more complex way to see what she did and a huge contribution. I know you also think she's quite similar to the role Sue Gray is playing today in the Labour Party with Zakir Starmer and also with the Covid inquiry. We've heard a lot more about how the corridors of power work or don't work in recent times. Linda McDougall, thank you so much for coming on the programme. A big taste for you there of an insight. And thank you for your company.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, Greg. I'm a long time listener to the show and I'm not lying when I say it has changed my life. Join us again for the next one. marketing BS. Each week I investigate a new wonder product promising you the world. At this time of year my husband and I suffer from hay fever. What I would like you to look into though are the tablets. This series a whole new batch of wonder products are being run through the evidence mill including motion sickness tablets, weighted blankets and we're starting with one of the

hot topics at the moment vapes. Just search for Sliced Bread on BBC Sounds. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.