Woman's Hour - Nuclear energy, SEND reform, Anita on Celebrity Race Across the World

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

A group of cross-party MPs has called for root and branch transformation of the way mainstream education caters for children and young people with special educational needs and disablities, including new statutory minimum standards. One of the recommendations of the Education Select Committee is that individual care plans for children with special educational needs EHCPs should NOT be scrapped in England. The Government is expected to publish its plans on how to reform SEND provision in England this autumn. Joining Anita Rani to discuss the latest issues is the BBC's Education Reporter Kate McGough.Sudanese women and girls are bearing the brunt of a civil war that is entering its third year. The relentless conflict has triggered the world’s worst humanitarian crisis for 6 million displaced women and girls. Cases of conflict-related sexual violence remain hugely under-reported, but evidence points to its systematic use as a weapon of war. Yousra Elbagir, Sky News’ Africa Correspondent talks to Anita Rani about the impact on women and also the role women play in providing support to the displaced.BBC Celebrity Race Across the World will soon be back on our screens as four celebs pair up with a friend or family member and travel from a starting point anywhere in the world to another BUT with no phones or flights allowed and only the cost of the flight as money for the entire trip. Woman's Hour has the privilege of revealing one of the celebrity pairings: No other than BBC Woman's Hour presenter Anita Rani and her father Balvinder Singh Nazran.The US and UK are expected to sign a civil nuclear cooperation deal today as part of President Trump’s state visit to the UK. But some surveys suggest that there is less support from UK women for the power source than from men and only 22% of the current nuclear workforce are women. Anita talks to Julia Pyke, joint Managing Director at the new Sizewell C Nuclear Power Station and KP Parkhill, Associate Professor in the Department of Environment and Geography at the University of York who studies public attitudes to nuclear about whether nuclear power has a so-called women problem.Last night the finale of TV drama The Summer I Turned Pretty hit our screens. It’s a coming-of-age tale, packed full of teen romance and at its centre, a juicy love triangle. According to the New York Times, its main audience is 25 to 54-year-old women, and it’s not the only teen drama that has caught the attention of this age group. So, what’s the draw? Journalists Edaein O'Connell and Hannah Betts join Anita to discuss the appeal.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

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Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. Hello, I'm Anita Rani, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the program. Now, during his state visit to the UK, President Trump and Prime Minister Kirstama are expected to sign a nuclear corporation deal to turbocharge the build-out of new power stations.

But how do women feel about nuclear power? How do you feel about it? Sudan is entering the third year of its civil war. According to the UN, it's a humanitarian crisis with women and children bearing the brunt. Twelve million people have been displaced. Half of them, women and girls will be finding out more. If you feel like you've experienced burnout, keep listening.

And have you been watching The Summer I Turned Pretty? The first two episodes in this latest Amazon Prime series were watched by 25 million people. And according to the New York Times, the main audience are aged between 25 to 54. Do you fit this demographic? Are you a woman watching this teen coming of age drama? And if you are, why?

Why are you watching it? Are you watching it with your teen? Or is it your guilty secret? Maybe you don't feel guilty. Is it pure escapism? And what is the pull of these teen dramas? Maybe you were someone who was addicted to Beverly Hills 90210, the OC, Gilmore Girls,

Never have I ever. My own favourite was my so-called life. They date us, but are you still watching them as an adult? Give me the reason why. Get in touch. 84844 is the number to text. You can also email the program by going to our website. And you can WhatsApp me or voice note me on 0300-100-444. We're also making a big announcement about one of the most popular TV shows,

Race Across the World. So keep listening if you're a fan. That text number once again is 84844. But first, a group of cross-party MPs has called for root and branch transformation of the way mainstream education caters for children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities, including new statutory minimum standards. One of the recommendations of the Education Select Committee is that individual care plans for children with special educational needs, EHCPs, should not be scrapped in England. The number of children and young people in England with an EHCP has increased. to its highest number since they were introduced a decade ago. It's a subject we regularly cover on the programme.

The government is expected to publish its plans on how to reform, send provision in England this autumn. Well, joining me now to give us the latest is BBC's education reporter Kate McGuff at Kate Morning. So the Education Select Committee has been looking into the send system for the last eight months. Tell me what they're looking into.

Yes, that's right. They've been speaking to education, education ministers, experts, teachers, local authorities, parents, lots of people to try in, I mean, the title of the report is solving the send crisis. So they were looking at practical recommendations for things that should be done to tackle this issue. And the main ones they've come up with really varied. But like you said, they've recommended keeping EHCPs and send tribunals. They say they're an important backstop of accountability for parents. They're also suggesting that there should be new minimum standards

for what support schools should offer for SEND. So we know that EHCPs do spell out that support, but the committee is recommending that below the level of an EHCP for ordinary SEND support, there should be minimum standards. So that means spelling out what resources, what expertise, what staffing every educational setting should have the SEND,

because there is somewhat of a postcode lottery at the moment. Other recommendations around training, for teachers. They want much more send training for current and future staff including head teachers, so right from the top. They also want the NHS to do more. They say it shouldn't be all on schools and some recommendations

around more state, especially schools, and looking again at funding. So let's look at this main recommendation which is to not scrap EHCPs. What's their reasoning for that? Just how important are people seeing these EHCPs?

I mean, as I said, the main reason is that they are a level of accountability for parents, and I think the report recognises that. The government have said that, you know, previously that they have refused to rule out changing HCPs when pushed on this, but they have said they will always be a legal requirement for additional support. In reaction to this actual report, that Bridget Philipson has said that the report does highlight a lot of deep-rooted issues and that they're continuing to listen to families and experts, and they're putting together plans that they say will transform outcomes for every child with send. But obviously, this report has come out in support

of a lot of parents who are campaigning to keep EHCPs as they are, because we don't know yet if they will change. What's the chair of the committee, Helen Hayes, be saying? And she's been saying essentially that it's really important that they recognize that the SEND system is in a mess. I think she was broken. It's been reported previously by people like the National Audit Office that the SEND system does need some root and branch perform. They say that putting more cost and putting more money and time and effort into changing

mainstream education for SEND will bring costs. down because they say if mainstream provision is better, it will mean fewer children maybe having to go to specialist provision, that maybe could stay in mainstream, that they couldn't before. So they are highlighting that long-term costs could be saved by investing in mainstream education in particular. And what's the reaction from parents' groups who've been very vocal saying that the system is broken? Well, the likes of the disabled children's partnership, they've strongly welcomed this. They've said it's a crucial thoroughly research report, and they strongly agree with the committee that the government shouldn't remove vital existing legal

rights. And they say getting this right would be a win-win for government. They said with the right investment now, you can improve outcomes for children and families and save money in the longer term. So it's been generally welcomed and headteachers unions as well have welcomed it, but they've said the owners shouldn't just be on schools. They want to see health and child services supporting children as well and a recognition that schools can't do it alone. This needs to be fully resourced and properly funded. Do we have any further details of the government's plans? We don't. We know that they're planning to bring out their plans in a white paper in the autumn. So we're keeping a course eye on that. They haven't confirmed any details. I mean,

there are things in motion already. They've launched a curriculum assessment review. The government's already invested like a billion pounds more in send this year alone and about $740 million already to create more specialist spaces. in mainstream schools and I think the government have often emphasised that they're keen for more early intervention and to keep more children in mainstream schools they definitely would prefer to concentrate on that

to reduce costs elsewhere I think. Kate McGoff, thank you very much for bringing us up to speed on that and of course this is a subject we will be coming back to on the programme. The text number once again 84844. Now Sudanese women and girls are bearing the brunt of a civil war that's entering its third year, the relentless conflict between the Sudanese armed forces and the paramilitary rapid support forces has triggered what the UN have called the world's worst humanitarian crisis with 6 million displaced women and girls.

The exact number of people who've been killed is unknown, but the US special envoy to Sudan estimates the figure to be 150,000. 24.6 million people are now facing acute hunger and 2 million people are now facing acute hunger and 2 million people are facing famine or at risk of famine. Cases of conflict-related sexual violence remain hugely underreported, but evidence points to its systematic use as a weapon of war.

While Yusra Elbegir, Sky News, Africa correspondent, recently returned from North Darfur and joins me now. And to let you know, we'll be hearing about some distressing and graphic accounts of what's happening in Sudan

in this conversation. Yusra, welcome to the program. Can you give us a sense of what you witnessed when you went to North Darfur? It was quite overwhelming, Anita. I think we knew what to expect to some degree. We've been going back to Sudan multiple times during the last more than two years of war.

But being in North Darfur, which is ultimately ground zero for this conflict, over 20 years ago, we saw widespread ethnic violence break out there where tribal militias attacked non-Arab civilians, African tribes, Dad 40 tribes, to the point where the ICC wanted former Islamist dictator, Ahmed al-Bashir for genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes.

What has happened in the interim is that the rapid support forces has grown from Janjawit, tribal militia, to an extremely powerful paramilitary group with foreign support, with training in Yemen, alongside Saudi and Emirati forces during the civil war in Yemen. And what they've done now is that they've done now is that they, managed to execute the systemic abuses that we saw in the early 2000s on a much wider scale. So the women we met had fled the regional capital, Al-Fashir, which has been surrounded and forcefully starved by the RSF for the last 16 months. It's the last standing capital in the region that is still state-held.

So if the RSF manages to capture al-Fashir, they will have basically annexed the entire Rada, Ford region and completely fragmented Sudan. They fled with nothing. They went through famine conditions. Many of them tried to endure months and months of the siege. And when they escaped, they were facing RSF on the road because you have to obviously go through RSF towns and RSF routes to get to safe zones that we managed to get to.

And they lost, many of them lost their partners on the way. many of them witnessed men being beaten, whipped, killed. So most of the women we spoke to kept saying, our men are back in a fashit. Either they're trapped, they're missing, they've been killed. And these women are basically taking care of their children alone in these very dire displacement camps that have seen very little aid. Tell me more about what the women told you about what they'd been through it

when you met them in the displacement camps. they said they'd been tortured, humiliated, beaten. One elderly woman was crying and shaking, saying that two of her daughters were raped in front of her and that they just fled in shame and she hasn't seen them since. She's had children killed by the RSF. She's had her sons killed. And these stories, I mean, every time you hear them,

you get that kind of crushing blow of the depth of this, the scale of this, but we'd go to camps where, Everyone had a similar story. It was just person after person approaching us saying my husband's been killed. My father's trapped and is eating animal feed and El Fashir. It's just the scale of it's horrendous. One camp we went to actually had a women's union because there were so many women who had no means of support. And they were trying to figure out ways for them to get some sort of to make livelihoods to be able to feed their kids.

and some of them were farming in nearby farms near the camps. They were trying to grow food to feed their children because they have absolutely no means of support. And when we spoke to the camp director at that camp, he said to us, we ourselves are confused and keep asking these women, where are your men? And they keep telling us our men have been executed. So it's not something we haven't seen before. We've carried out investigations into RSF capture of towns in North Darfur

from the very early days of this current war and we saw that they were going door to door and executing men of fighting age. So they target the men and then they humiliate and defile the women and we've seen that across the country. I want to pick up on something you said Yusra, which was the horrific account that you shared

about the woman who watched two of her daughters being raped. And then you said that the two daughters fled in shame. So it's that sort of double burden that, number one, they are the victims of this horrendous use of a weapon of war and then they have to carry the burden and the shame of it. Can you explain a bit more about that? I mean, Sudan is an honour-based society.

There's a lot of value around marriageability and virginity and we have all those kind of very traditional North African, East African practices that are harmful but women have been fighting against and speaking up against over the last, you know, over decades. We've got a very strong feminist movement that have been now working. You know, feminist groups, groups that work with protecting women's rights,

they've been working with victims of sexual violence over the last two years of war. And what we saw earlier in the year is mass suicides, group suicides from women in central Sudan. who'd been raped by the RSF. We worked with Seja, which is the Strategic Institute for Women in the Horn of Africa, and they were able to verify cases of rape in girls as young as eight years old. And one of the voice notes they sent to us that we featured in a report was from a young man

who was captured by the RSF with his family. His family, the RSF came into his home, and he heard his two cousins being raped, and then he heard their screams go silent, and he went into the room. and found that they had both committed suicide after the RS and had raped them. So we're seeing that double tragedy. We're seeing women experience sexual torture, sexual assault, rape, and then them committing suicide and almost reclaiming, in a way, through the suicide, their right to not exist in those conditions.

It's very difficult to hear these horrific accounts, but it's important to hear them as well, because this is being done to women, and it is done to women time and time again. You mentioned that there are feminist groups, but how are survivors being supported, if at all? I mean, there's psychological support, psychosocial support happening, but not at the scale that's required. I think people are very much focused on survival at the moment. Food is scarce. Even in Khartoum, the capital that's been recaptured, reclaimed by the army, they're dealing with cholera outbreaks. They're dealing with RSF drone attacks on civilian infrastructure, on power plants. They are dealing with lack of clean water. So the priorities are elsewhere.

So, I mean, we in the capital met a woman who had been a young teenager, actually. She's 17 when we met her. But at the start of the war, she was forcefully married by an RSF officer, raped throughout their forced marriage as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old. Then she was impregnated. And she wanted to keep the baby and he was trying to force her to get an abortion and would beat her. This is incredibly graphic, but important to share, would beat her to induce a miscarriage. She was in the capital with her baby. She was not receiving support when we met her. She was just happy to have been received into an area that was held by the army and was trying to find a way to kind of get on with her life.

Sorry, but how are they doing that? other coping strategies where do they find resilience did you see that amongst the women i did ask her you know where she's if she's okay and where where she's finding support and she said that she had a she was engaged and that her partner was help had been her her backbone through the experience and that her family were supporting her to try and get her to to to helping her and taking care of the baby but ultimately when her mother stood up and said refused for the RSF fighter to marry her, she was beaten and her leg was broken

and her brothers and fathers were threatened. So there's only so much that can be done in those circumstances. But ultimately, even that support that's coming now is about surviving, it's about feeding her baby, is about just getting through the day-to-day, not her actual well-being, her mental and emotional health. Those are seen as luxuries because the country's still at war. Now, you've reported, and you are,

a journalist, but you're also someone whose family home is in Khartoum, and it was looted and destroyed. So first of all, how are your family? My family are okay, and I always say we're the lucky ones. We managed to get them out in the first two weeks of the war, and I think when they did evacuate, they didn't imagine that they wouldn't be going back to their home. I remember my mum saying to me, should I leave the keys under the mat just in case we come back? And it was surreal to go back to the home and kind of collect our belongings, our valuables, which for family photos and things that we hold dear, collect them, and now I'm actually going to see them and taking some of that stuff back. But I think when you're standing in your home

and the TVs are gone and the ACs are gone, you are able to see that these things are the most important, that your valuables are actually the memories that you have in the house, what you cherish, those are the things that kind of you hold on to when you realize that actually the material objects are of no meaning. Yeah. Well, we've got a clip of you having a video chat with your mum, and this is from when you return to the family home. I never thought that I'll see my house like that.

I mean, this is my house for the end of my life. I was supposed to die here in this house. I was supposed to be buried here in my country. I was supposed to enjoy my garden and my place. I was supposed to cook and cater for you and your children. I was supposed to be here for the rest of my life. How are your parents coping with the fact that they probably won't be able to rebuild their home? It depends on the day, honestly, Anita.

I think there are some days where they find solace in just the joys of being together, of having survived, of being able to be in a neighboring country that they have ties to. But I think the predominant feeling is quite despairing. There's a lot of despondents. My parents have worked their whole lives for everything that they have. And I think even not being able to be home continuing to work and reaping, kind of the benefits of that work, sitting in their garden, being around their fruit trees. It's tough.

But ultimately, they're here and they're alive. And I think that's what we kind of come back to, that so many people have lost their lives. So many people have lost their dearest loved ones. And I think in these times of war, you really hone in on what matters and what you've got left. And I think that's what gets us all through. And the predominant feeling is that no one's been untouched by this. war. It's a capital city of seven million people that was captured. And El Fashir now in North Darfur is older than Khartoum. It's a base. It was the capital of a sultanate.

It's a historic city. And so I think we all kind of feel the solidarity and feel that this is a shared struggle and that we are all in this together. And I think that's how people have survived through the war, the mutual aid, the community kitchens, the emergency response rooms that came from Sudan's revolution, volunteers, risked. their lives to get food into El Fashir. We actually met some of them, and our report will come out next week of them risking their lives to try and break the siege and get insulin, life-saving supplies. I think those are the things that we hold on to, that there is a lot of courage and there's a lot of strength. Is the UK and its allies failing Sudanese women in particular by not taking stronger action against those committing these crimes?

100%. The UAE has been accused time and time again of supporting the RSF, our own source. sources on the ground have told us that they're providing logistical and armed support to the RSF. The UAE denies this again and again, but they have not been held to account by their strongest allies in the West, the UK and the US. The Biden administration called what's happening in Darfur genocide at the hands of the RSF and had named the UAE a major defense partner. The UK continues to kind of show symbolic support. David Land, was in Chad, these kind of symbolic actions that don't translate into a stronger stance,

that don't translate into resolutions at the UN Security Council that actually calls out the UAE as a backer of the RSF or designates the RSF as a terror organization, which activists have been calling for, though we have to say that would impede humanitarian access and may be a problem elsewhere. So there is this very apathetic approach and often Sudanese people feel like Sudan is mentioned to deflect from Gaza, to deflect from other conflicts that need intervention as well. So when we met people, they're not cut off from the world, though they've not been receiving support from the world. They see that there is attention elsewhere, that they see that there are priorities and they are not on those list of priorities. And they've asked us,

why are we not getting air drops like Gaza or South Sudan? Why are we not getting that kind of aggressive intervention? Why are people not caring about us? And I think that's what's so disheartening is because you actually can't say, no, people care.

You can only say, well, here, why don't you tell the world what's going on? Well, we did contact the Foreign Office for a response, but they couldn't provide anything in time for this program. I'd also like to know, Yusra, how you balance professional detachment with your personal connection to this war? I don't think it's possible, honestly, Anita.

I think that I have changed massively through the course of this war, and I hope it's for the better. But I also, I'm very lucky to be able to go back again and again with teams that genuinely care and see how important this is. And we've made three trips to Sudan this year. I'm very grateful to Sky for being able to provide that kind of coverage and support. When a lot of channels have chosen not to cover it,

at all. So I think this is how I get through the war, is being able to go and meet people and speak to them and understand what's happening on the ground and share that and share that in a way that is completely unhampered or unclouded by everything else where it's just their voices reaching people in their homes. And that is what I can offer and I'm glad to do it. Yeah, bear witness and amplify what's happening. Yusra Elbegir, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning that's Yusra Elbegir, Sky News, Africa correspondence

and to remind you that you can go to the BBC Action Line website for sources of support. 84844 is the text number. Now, have you experienced burnout? Maybe you were working hard to grow your role, your impact or even running your own business or perhaps you were taking on more responsibility to get that promotion and rise to the top

or maybe your drive and ambitions means you found yourself constantly saying yes to extra tasks, taking the long hours just to get ahead, taking on more than you could manage, hoping it would pay off. And somewhere along the line, the effort left you emotionally, physically and mentally drained. So much that you had to take a break

or step away completely. Maybe you're feeling it right now. If this sounds familiar, we would love to hear your story. Get in touch with us. The text number is 848484.5. Or you can email the program by going to our website or on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. That's for something that we will be talking about on a later date.

Now, BBC Celebrity, Race Across the World will soon be back on our screens. If you've never watched it before, four celebs pair up with a friend or a family member and have to travel from a starting point anywhere in the world but with no phones. And the only money they have is the cost of the flight. for the entire trip. Well, here on Woman's Hour today, we have been given the privilege of revealing one of the celebrity pairings.

So, drum roll, please. I can announce that Anita Rani will be on this year's program with her father, Balvinda Singh, Nazran. Yes, it's me and my dad, and my dad joins me now, live from work. Morning, Dad. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

Morning. How are you? Hey, I'm on Women's Hour. You are on Woman's Hour. Finally, Dad, we can just, we don't have to keep it a secret anymore. I know. It's tough keeping a secret. For months and months.

And you are on Woman's Hour. And I'm going to tell everyone why that's significant because you have been listening to Woman's Hour since, well, for as long as I can remember, since I was a kid. Yeah, since the 80s. I used to have listened to Radio 4 and the car and I remember you moaning about Radio 4. Dad, done it off. Turn it off. And there you are. I don't read your four. I know. Well, it worked. Something worked.

Here we go. This is it. This is basically what's going to happen now. Everyone's going to know everything about me. I know why I wanted you to do race across the world with me. Because, I mean, it's quite interesting that you're at work talking to me. Because all you've ever done is work. And you're always saying to me, you go off and you have these amazing adventures. And you're so, you love it when I come back and tell you stories of where I've been or what I've been up to.

But you've never have. an adventure yourself so that's not a real not a real adventure when you mentioned let's go for adventure i thought it maybe a couple of days hiking somewhere or whatever that sort of thing you know like we used to go into the yorkshire moors i thought maybe a couple of days or a week a weekend away or something when you said let's go for a adventure dad yeah five weeks yeah five weeks with no telephone why did you say yes i don't know spent time with you because we've never spent time with you since you were a little kid. No, we haven't.

And we've never really been on holiday together either. Not really, I think, no, because you were quite independent. You didn't want to go to places we wanted to go. Do you know, whilst I was thinking of questions, I thought, okay, we'll ask Dad and we'll sort of, you know, find out a little bit. What I realised was, I don't think I ever really asked you

if you wanted to do it. I think I just bulldoze, like, which is what I normally do. Come on, Dad, it's going to be great. I mean, did you ever have a moment where you thought, maybe it's not for me. No, I were looking forward to the venture, but the only thing was we didn't know where we were going to go and you had me learning different languages.

Dad is going to be here. I know exactly what it's going to be. You have me learning Swahili. I did, and that's because we were given a jab. We were given yellow fever. And so my powers of deduction were like, right, we will be going somewhere in East Africa. So we were drilling, well, I was drilling you in Swahili.

And then, can you remember what cheaper is in Swahili, by the way, Dad? I have no idea. Nafu, Nafu. Nafu. Anyway, it's irrelevant because we were nowhere near East Africa. We got to the airport and we opened the envelope. And where did they send us? Mexico.

Mexico. So I can reveal that, yeah, we traveled along an undiscovered Caribbean and Pacific coast of Central America. I mean, we looked out, didn't we? It was incredible. No, it was good. I really enjoyed it. We can't reveal anything about the journey. We don't want to give it away either.

We want people to enjoy it. Did you feel out of your comfort zone, though? A lot of places I was, especially with language. You know, the Spanish word, well, they learn Spanish, yeah. Yeah, it was. One of the word, they learn how to say how much. It's quanto cesta, quento cesta. We'll leave it at that.

And, you know, in English you can say, if somebody says, you know what it means, how much? But in English, when somebody says it's more than you expected, so you say, how much? I think that's very, yeah, your Yorkshire man definitely came out. You said, how much? But I couldn't pronounce it in Spanish to say, how much, you know, quanta. Yeah, well, you've got all this to look forward to. Dad's brilliant language skills, and you can see that even after five weeks, you know, brilliant, actually, Dad. You were fluent by the end of it.

Anyway, I don't want to give too much away. Now, I think people are going to want to know, right? Because we haven't spent much time together. I went off at the age of 18 to uni and never came home. We've never been on holiday together. And here we are going away as with your adult daughter. People will want to know how we got on. Well, I think what I probably thought is still as me a little six-year-old little kid.

Come on this way. You're saying, no, not this way, Dad. I know better. I know better. Did I know better even when I was six? I probably did. See, it's all going to come out. I think we reverted back to being a teenager and her dad, didn't we, a little bit?

We did. Anyway, we can't do anything about it now. It's all going to be on TV. At least we're still talking. We are still talking. You came around yesterday with your drill and put a painting up for me. I do, yeah. Thank you, Dad.

Thank you. We had an amazing time. Are you going to come back on the program and talk to me again? Let's see what people think of it. We might have to go into hiding. Yeah. Oh, Dad, thank you. And look at you.

I mean, you're still working. I am. I keep myself busy. When I do retire, sit at home, a bit of gardening. That's it. I know what else to do. Go on. I'm no good at sports, so I can't do golf.

I tried it. You know, last time I played golf, they told me, I won three prizes. And after that, said, right, you're banned. It can't come again. Because you were that bad? You know, you all the three prizes they get me, they give me a wooden spoon three times,

and they said, the only golfer we know that tells us truth. They said, you are useless, you are useless. You never know, Dad, you might have a career in radio after this. Who knows? Anyway, it's been so lovely speaking to you. And, Dad, you've, what a moment in your life? I've been a lifelong woman, listener and now you've been on Woman's Hour.

Fantastic. I'll listen to it all. I'll listen to it all the time. Yeah, I know. I know. And we know who your favourite presenter is. Noola. All right, Dad. Have a great day. Thank you. There we go. Bye, Dad. It's been revealed.

That was a lovely, slightly surreal moment talking to my dad. Well, it's all going to be out there. We've done Race Across the World and you can catch up with the new series of Celebrity Race Across the World. It starts later this autumn on. one. And BBC, I play it. And I can tell you that one of the other couples, I can't tell you everybody, who, and they're all lovely, is the actor Dylan Llewellyn with his mum, Jackie. Race across the world. It's all about to happen.

Now, the US state visit. Pomp switches to politics today as President Trump travels to checkers for a series of meetings with Kirstama. The two leaders are expected to sign a nuclear cooperation deal to turbocharge the build-out of new power stations, as the government press release describes it. The UK has an ambition of generating up to a quarter of our power through nuclear by 2050. And this new agreement is all about speeding up the developments of new nuclear reactors, harmonising regulation between the US and the UK. So if a reactor has already passed safety checks in one country, it can be used faster in the other. In an unstable world, nuclear could provide a dependable source of domestic energy. It might hold the

the key to meeting the power needs of the coming AI revolution. But today, we want to ask, does nuclear power have a women problem? Surveys over many years have found significantly less support among women for nuclear power than men. And only 22% of the current nuclear workforce are women. Well, to explore women's attitudes to nuclear power, Dr. K.P. Parkhill is on the line from the University of York, Associate Professor in the Department of Environment and Geography there. And with me in the studio is June. Julia Pike, Joint Managing Director, the new Sizewell C Nuclear Power Station, which is currently under construction in Suffolk, a project with an estimated budget of £38 billion.

Julia and KP, welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm going to come to you first, KP. In the spring, the government's public attitudes tracker showed 15% of women would support a nuclear power station in their local area. That's compared to 30% of men, very low figures. What does that tell us? this is a pretty consistent finding we found across a lot of different environmental issues so it's not unique to nuclear power so we found it for example it was called to nickname the gender gap or gender difference in climate change chemical works radioactive waste so this is kind of on trend with this sort of topic I think it's important to say though it's not as simple as women are against men or four it's a bit more nuanced than that but we have seen previously that, for example, women are more supportive of what might be termed more incremental changes.

So things like behaviour change or taking care and responsibility for our own actions and not relying on bigger technological fixes. And what we've also seen is where often these sorts of technologies are associated with notions of masculinity. So therefore, men might be more supportive of them in that way. Obviously it's not as simple as saying all men think this way and all women think the other way. And I know we're not trying to sort of say that today. But I think that latter point is indicative of the importance of having more girls and women going into STEM subject areas and into careers like Julia. Wonderfully segued into Julia. Welcome. So you're building one of the biggest nuclear projects in the country.

How do you react to surveys like this about women? women, your female neighbours, not wanting you on their property or near them? I think what it tells us is that we have a lot of work to do. So obviously, we think that the size of well-seas Power Station is going to be a great thing for the local community because we bring so many jobs on the environmental front. We have very small use of land, which I know people worry about. And we are very good stewards of the land around the station. We're making a lot of habitat for wildlife, etc.

But I think it's a really important point that we need to better communicate this and I think the way that attitudes will change is as it becomes clear that building something like size we'll see it's a real sign of optimism it's something which is really great for people's kids because we're building something which is going to make electricity way into the future and operating for 60 maybe even 100 years and offering lots and lots of great apprenticeships and then jobs and they're really good long-term jobs and I think when people experience the benefits of living near a nuclear power station they actually are more supportive. So we get a lot more support from people who do live near than from people who

don't. What are those benefits? Well, the benefits are that we will create 1,500 apprenticeships. We'll make sure that at least a third of them are local. The town where we're building size well, see, it's quite remote at the moment. There's an 11 to 16 school and the kids have to get public transport for one and a half to two hours, which will lowest off to go into further education. And there's a 50% dropout rate. So because we're building the power station, we're going to build an FE college in the town so people will be able to walk to school or to college and that will be a game changer for retention rates and then for those young people's chances of going into really great, really long-term careers. How important are women's attitudes in your mission

more broadly? Women's attitudes are really important. You know, everybody in the UK pays their electricity bill. So whatever it is is generating electricity, all households are paying for. And so we're really keen that our employee base looks roughly like the bill-paying society. So currently we have a 65% female executive team. We're doing really well with numbers of employees. We're well above 22. It's like about 40% female. And we are targeting having 50% of our apprenticeships going to young women.

And these things are really important. I think there is a connection between who's working in the industry and indicators of support. And the more the government is openly supporting nuclear, and it was a great announcement about the American advanced monetary reactors earlier this week, the more people are going into it, and the more government is openly talking about it. We are actually seeing attitudes change, and we are seeing, in the polling, more young women becoming supportive of nuclear. Well, let's get into that a little bit. KP, because there's a long history in the UK of women opposing nuclear arms, the thinking of the Green in protest.

Is there a generational angle to this, bearing in mind that this is power, not weapons? Tell me about what your young female students have been telling you about how they feel about it. Yeah, so I think that possibly is a generational aspect to this. There's sort of longstanding connections, or perceived longstanding connections, I should say, by some people with things like atomic weaponry, radioactive waste and so on. when I sometimes do a thought listing task with my student so I'll say you know what comes to mind note this down whatever comes to mind when you hear the words nuclear power and you know I found that consistently whether it's not just from the women students I should say but they will talk about sustainable energy and some will talk about waste and those sorts of things that you know it's not

just all positive or negative and those sorts things whereas perhaps older generations might I remember things like the Cold War, which again is not to do with nuclear energy and for electricity. But it's that word nuclear, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Or things like mushroom cloud, incidences like Chernobyl and so on. So, you know, again, I'm not trying to generalise here, but, you know, there are these interesting sort of cultural aspects that people relate to at times. Julia, is the way that the nuclear industry is communicating to the public?

Are you getting it right? Because lots of people think nuclear power and their minds might go straight to Homer Simpson and the three-hour fish and the power station and the way it's portrayed and it's dangerous and unsafe? I definitely think the Simpsons, which I very much enjoy, but I definitely think it's done the nuclear industry, a big disservice. You know, we're not, I'm not Mr. Burns. but the, I mean, I think you're right. I think we are getting it right.

We are improving, but we obviously have a job to do to much better communicate all the social benefits of nuclear power and what it's going to contribute to society. And as I said, in particular, focusing on opportunities for people. But what about people's concerns over safety? Yeah, so, I mean, statistically, nuclear is one of the safest ways of making electricity. And it's a bit like the fly drive analogy that people worry about flying although statistically, it's extremely safe.

And again, we just need to do a much better job of publicising in softer ways and not being too technical in the way we explain things and moving towards a much more sort of emotionally resonant ways of communicating so that people feel much warmer towards the industry as well as understanding some facts. So we are starting to get better, but we obviously have a lot to go. That's really interesting. Just give me an example of how you make people feel differently about it. What messaging goes out and what might it have been in the past

and what do you change it to? I think in the past, lots and lots of figures have been put out and lots of analogies. And there's lots that you could look up very easily about, you know, the radiation equivalent of eating a banana, radiation equivalent of eating Brazil nuts. But somehow it doesn't really speak to people. So what we're looking at doing is, in our case,

producing short films which are basically about the feeling of everybody needs electricity, the electricity you use today, a certain percentage of it will always be nuclear. It's clean, it's green, and it's offering people social opportunities and it's actually got some really great environmental benefits. And it's helping people feel that

rather than just bombarding them with facts. KP, I know you'll know all about this because you'll be talking to your students about it. But tell us how something called the white male effect informs thinking. So there's a theory put forward that sometimes, men are more supportive of things like nuclear power or see those sorts of things that's less

risky because there are more men making decisions about these sorts of technologies and ideas, and therefore women are less supportive because they're not necessarily involved in the decision making. It's caused a white male effect because it's typically being found that white men see risks, well, see it as less risky compared to any of a sort of social group. There's lots of ways you can unpack that, but, you know, again, I think it speaks the importance of representation, not just as a tick box exercise, which I know it's not really, but also about getting girls and women going into these sorts of careers and being part of that decision-making process and more so than perhaps they're put forward at the moment. Well, Julia, women's views matters to your recruitment. You're aiming for a visibly balanced workforce. how is it going?

Well, at the moment, as I say, we're doing very well. We have a majority female executive team and we have about 40% women employees and a target of 50% female apprentices. So at the moment it's going well. But we're not at all complacent. It is really important that society welcomes nuclear because it can just give such fantastic opportunities

and especially, as I say, for young people. When you're building something which is going to make electricity into the future, it's something which is a visible sign, of investment in young people. How are you going to make it appealing to women? We're going to carry on working to appear on things like Women's Hour, which is a fantastic opportunity. I'm a lifelong listener.

I think having the opportunity to talk about it. It hasn't really been very present in the mainstream media other than as a new story about cost or indeed programs like Chernobyl. And we need to make more effort to talk about nuclear positively in the mainstream and help people understand, but to feel rather than bombard them with facts, that it's a safe, clean, green way of making electricity, which offers great jobs and opportunities for our future generations. And, KP, your teaching students, are they keen, would they go into the industry?

What are they saying to you? It's quite mixed. I mean, I must admit, most of the students I teach on working in physics or engineering and those sorts of things. So it wouldn't be a natural sort of segue. for them. But, you know, there's definitely a lot of interest in nuclear power and what it can do as part of our energy mix. There is also, of course, still concern and so on. And I think it's important that we don't dismiss the concerns and worries that people have

and ignore those sorts of things as well. Thank you both for speaking to me this morning. That's Dr. K. P. Parkhill from the University of York and Julia Pike from Seiswalsy. Thank you. Now, the government's department for energy security and net zero centers this statement saying, while we understand these concerns, we have one of the safest nuclear power regimes in the world, and any developments will remain subject to robust regulatory and safety controls. Unlocking a golden age of nuclear is crucial for clean power and taking back control of our energy, which will protect family finances, boost energy security, create thousands of jobs, and tackle the climate crisis. Now, last night, the finale of the summer.

I turned pretty hit our TV screens. In case you've missed the hype is the coming of age drama packed full of teen romance and at its centre is a juicy love triangle. The first two episodes of the latest series

were watched by 25 million people around the world but you may be surprised to hear that according to the New York Times its main audience is 25 to 54 year old women. It's not the only teen drama that's caught the attention

of women over 30. You could include My Life with the Walter Boys Exo, Kitty and Ginny and Georgia is in that list. So why are women getting hooked on these teenage dramas? Well, I'm joined by Aideon O'Connell and Broadsheet journalist Hannah Betts, who've both written about it. Welcome both of you.

Aideon, for anyone who doesn't know, tell us more about it. And is it really that good? And I'm including myself in this. I've not seen it. Well, it is. Tell me what I'm missing. So it's called the summer I turn pretty, but I think this summer it was the summer that this show.

consumed my life. So it's based on a trilogy of books written by Jenny Hand. They would have been written around like 2010, 2011. And it centres on Belle Conklin and two boys called Conrad and Jeremiah. They're Fisher boys. And their mothers are best friends. And they go to the summer house every summer. And as they grow up, Belly starts to form feelings for both brothers. So a love triangle, which a bit of an absurd love triangle, you think about it, ensues. But it was made into a TV series for Amazon and the first series came out in 2022. And since then, it's just grown in popularity. I think this has been the most popular season of it so far. So she has a relationship with both brothers. Sorry, I know I'm still. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah, which is a bit now. I don't know what

that has happened. Keeping it in the family? Keep it in family. Can anyone take students say that they've heard of a story similar? But I think, okay. Oh, no, I don't know about that. Sorry, anyway, my mind's going on. Come on, Karen, what drew you into watching it? What got you watching it? Um, for me, I suppose I read the books. So I read the books when I was, I must have been maybe 13, 14. Um, and I think I grew up in an era of like Twilight and Hunger Games and these real fandums that kind of consumed you as a young person. So I think that for me, there's a lot of nostalgia attached to it. Um, I'm also a big romantic at heart. I love a good romance story when it's done well. And this has been particularly, um, done excellently. I think of Jenny Han is just a genius. Then there's another side to my. story. It's a real comfort show and a lot of people say it feels like it calms them because it's a form of escapism and my mom actually died the week before the first episode of this series came out. So for me throughout this summer it's just been something to focus on and kind of take me out of reality a little bit because it's shot so beautifully and I suppose the story as I said is

a bit mad really when you think about it but it is kind of make believe and it's just it's honestly like been wrapped up in like a warm blanket every week. It's been it's been brilliant. Look, I'm going to bring in Hannah, so you've got some solidarity. And you know you're not alone. There's 25 million people who are with you. You're 54, Hannah. Am I sensing judgment? What are you trying to say?

What's the appeal? What's the appeal? Well, it's sumptuous, sunny, slow-mo cheese fest. And, you know, it is also escapism. I am 54. I've been in a relationship for 11 years. And this is my middle-aged mental escape. room it returns me to a past when my problems were micro rather than macro you know when it was all

about gazing and longing and yearning and when when these ardent looks could go on forever because we had bandwidth and we had time I mean my my boyfriend doesn't look at me at all we barely communicate we're ships that pass in the night but you know there was a time when this kind of thing was my life especially love triangles. Does it surprise you that it's so popular amongst this range of ages? No, it's a cult. It's this perfect escapism for all of us. I mean, poor Aideen, what a terrible summer she's had.

And yet she looks happy in the moment because she's had this beautiful love story. I mean, once upon a time I was quite clever and I used to teach literature at Oxford. And, you know, it's the same setup as in Mallory's Mort Arthur of 1485, in which you get Arthur, Guinevere and Lancelot. Or it's the same thing in Audrey Hepburn, Sabrina, or it's Twilight, as a dean was saying, it's these millennial dramas. And we love it. And it is like a cult. I found myself on all these middle-aged WhatsApp groups doing kind of Marxist or psychoanalytic or, you know, feminist readings of the situation.

but it is also pure escapism and Anita you're missing no no you're selling it to me now but there are Hannah I totally agree like I so this the episode will come out in a Wednesday and I would then talk to my friends about it the next day

then I would go on TikTok and like there's these girls of America who are doing these deep dives into the symbolism they're looking for Easter eggs because it's quite connected to Taylor Swift because they use a lot of her songs like they're they're it's like maths equations

trying to give you hate I honestly thought I was studying for like an English exam. So I was taking in the symbolism, like colour, colour, what this colour meant, what that colour meant. So it's very clever in a sense, isn't it? The soundtrack is Taylor Swift, right? So, and they've got sort of leave her Easter eggs, a little clue. So it's all, that's clever marketing, isn't it?

Oh. It's so good. I have to say their music budget has to be astronomical because some of the songs, and as well, for the millennial woman, like some of the artists that they've used. But even beyond that, they had a U2 song, which was used brilliantly. They had the Roland Stones. And Jenny Han always says that she likes to put music as if that is what the, say, the character is thinking. That's really attached to the theme.

So it just adds an extra layer and an extra element. Like the music that I've been listening to over the past few weeks. Like, honestly, I actually don't know what I'm going to do. So I think maybe this is where we kind of drift apart. Because Hannah mentioned something about, you know, the nostalgia of being back in your team around. I have no nostalgia for my teens. Like I am, I love where I am right now. Being a teenager was absolute hell.

I couldn't agree more. I am so much happier at 54 than 14 or 24 or 13. Yeah, who would want to go back there? Who? And funnily enough, one thing, when I wrote about this for the mail, apparently loads of people below the line called me creepy. Yes. Are you creepy to be watching it in your 50s?

So creepy, no. No, I mean. No, not at all. No. And also, I mean, I think the judgment there was kind of stay in your menopausal lane. But you know what? Romance doesn't recognize an age group. And I didn't think I needed to say that I wasn't purving over teenage boys, but let it go on record.

I am not. But, you know, it's this eternal romance and this distraction that's so wonderful. And also, actually, some of my more sensible middle-aged friends, watch it for the property porn or the food. Ah, yes. Okay. Tell me about the, now we're talking. Go on, tell me about the food and the property. I think there's this father character who actually is the one I find attractive.

I would totally have a romance. Adam. Oh no, Adine's looking. No, but he is in my age group. But he's, you know, he's changed. But there is a lot of property porn. And quite a few of my friends were saying, well, I think I would marry the adulterous banker

if I could, you know, maybe have that summer house. And there's a lot of food porn. In the final episode, I won't be doing a spoiler, but there's a lot of Paris porn. You know, it's really lovely. It's beautiful. And it's just, like, the main, say, guy character

that everyone wanted to get with the girl at the end, I won't give spoilers either. He is such a urner and like a man who yearns in him, is a man who earns. And there's this real shift, I think, that a yearna. They're meant to be simps. Like, they want to be, like, just obsessed with them.

And I think, as well, if you're in the dating pool as I am and you're a bit jaded by it to be able to watch as like a classic love story it kind of makes you believe into like magical love again isn't that the problem isn't that the problem

the classic love story is what's ruining us all the waiting for them sorry I'm so cynical I need to watch it I'm going to watch it and then we can talk about he listens to her

and how how I mean that's as simple as it is really he smells her hair he says things like I like being under the same moon as you who doesn't want that and he I will never find an Irishman like that.

No, yes. But do you want someone who's going to say that to you, really? I want someone who listens. Okay, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, okay. But we can let's start there. I'm going to read out a couple of texts because you're not alone. You're not alone.

There's lots of people out there. Here we go. I'm 54 and I've watched the summer I turn pretty with my daughter, Charlotte, who's 20. It's a lovely shared time and we chat about the characters from the show and some of the decisions they make. She's gone back to drama school. I've watched the last episodes by myself. It's always interesting to hear her views on relationships and friendships. Lifelong topics of interest, says Sam.

And Amanda says, I've watched it with my daughter. It was a real joy to share those hours watching this. I've loved it as much as her. Its appeal is across generations, gorgeous scenery, wonderful love story. I'm 60 now and we watched the final together on watch party yesterday. My daughter at university and me here at home, and I adored it. What's the next teen drama you've got your eyes on, both of you? Well, there's actually a film of the summer of Trumpaidid being released.

It was announced last night. But yes, they did a premiere of the finale in Paris and it was announced that Jenny Han is working on a film writing and directionist. So the obsession continues. And also I have an aunt who is watching it, but she called it, she's calling it the summer I was good looking. And I was like, that's actually a better name for it. That is a better name for it.

That's brilliant. And how about you, Hannah? Have you got your own any more teen romances? I love a teen drama, but I'm a bit bereft. I might go back and watch from the beginning. I think, Hannah, you need to sit down and watch it with your boyfriend. You need to get him to focus, pay attention and say, these are my needs. Yeah, you're right.

So summer I turn pretty is relationship therapy. Yeah, maybe. Thank you both for joining me. You never know, maybe I will watch a few episodes and become a convert as well. That's A.D. O'Connell and Hannah Betts. And that's it from me. Join me tomorrow for more Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

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