Woman's Hour - Nudity-blocking law, Smaller rugby balls for women, Fathers with dementia

Episode Date: September 9, 2026

The government has announced plans to require smartphones and tablets to block people from taking, sharing or viewing nude images by default, with adults able to switch the protection off after verifying their age. BBC Senior Technology Reporter Chris Vallance explains how it could work, while Soma Sara, founder of sexual violence campaign group, Everyone’s Invited, tells us if it could protect young people from pressure, coercion and abuse.England Rugby’s Red Roses will be taking part in a major international tournament throughout September and October. But one of the biggest conversations ahead of the WXV Global series is around changes to the size of the equipment. World Rugby will be trialling a smaller ball throughout the tournament. This ball is 3% smaller than the standard size used at elite level for men and women. The changes have had mixed reviews with some saying they are better designed for women to use, while others are concerned about the harm this could do to the image of the Women's game. Rocky Clark, former Rugby Union player and world cup winning red rose and CEO of Women in Sport, Stephanie Hilborne discuss the impact both on and off the pitch.The second in our series Daddy Issues where we look at the impact on women of having an absent father in their lives. On Monday we heard from Julie who didn’t know her father’s identity throughout her life. But what if your father has been present throughout your life - but then became absent due to an illness like dementia. How to navigate that? Hayley was the apple of her father’s eye: “We were joined at the hip.” Her father Tony was formally diagnosed three years ago and lives with Hayley, her partner and their blended family. She has been documenting their journey on Instagram as a way of finding support for herself and helping other carers. Reporter Jo Morris went to meet them at the family home in Somerset. Singer songwriter Phoebe Bridgers made her Venice Film Festival debut this week. The topic of conversation around her red carpet appearance was not her role as an actor or her Gucci skirt but her visible leg hair. Body hair on the red carpet is often a hot topic - many will remember the furore over Julia Roberts’s armpit hair at the premier of Notting Hill in 1999. But why are we still so bothered when a woman chooses not to wax or shave? Journalist Eilidh Doran has written about not always shaving herself and joins Nuala to discuss.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Simon Richardson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, good, bad billionaire and you're dead to me,

with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, in a moment, new plans by the government to introduce legislation to block explicit images on children's phones.

Also today, the next episode in our series, Daddy Issues. you'll hear a very moving story about the absent father, but due to dementia, not distance. Plus, 3% may not sound like a lot, but a ball that is 3% smaller has women rugby players and fans debating whether it is needed that conversation coming up. And here's a headline.

Phoebe Bridgers and her leg hair make for a memorable Venice Film Festival debut. Why is it still memorable that a woman doesn't remove her body hair. You may have thoughts on this. Why you do or why you don't? Younger women apparently are embracing it more than previous generations. Is that your experience?

How is it? How was it for you? How did your upbringing, your family, your friends and culture inform the messaging you received about body hair? You can text the program 84844 on social media we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. WhatsApp, that message or voice note. The number is 0-3700, 100444. And on nearly all smart speakers, you can say,

Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment, and it will come through to us. But let us begin with the government announcing yesterday that it will introduce a new law to force tech firms to prevent children from taking or sharing nude images on mobile devices. The technology would operate on phones and also on tablets and would not allow nude photographs to be used.

taken or for those photographs to be sent or received. Adults would be able to switch those measures off after verifying their age. Now, ministers say it will protect children from sexual exploitation and abuse. There are questions about how it would work in practice. Also questions about privacy, age verification and whether technology can address the pressures that lead young people to share intimate images in the first place. Let me bring in two guests this morning on this. We have Chris Valence, BBC Senior Teammoth.

technology reporter. Good morning, Chris. Good morning. And Somasara, the founder and CEO of Everyone's Invited, which works in schools to campaign against sexual violence. Good to have you with this summer. Thank you. Chris, let's begin with this. What exactly is the government

proposing? What would the change be on our phones or indeed our children's phones? Well, the government essentially gave the tech firms, and here we're talking principally about Apple and Google because about 90% of devices use their operating systems, gave them a three-month ultimatum to stop children being able to take

or share nude images on their smartphones and mobile devices. What they've introduced yesterday, the Culture Secretary stood up in Parliament, said there was going to be new primary legislation that would make it impossible for anyone under the age of 18 to take view or send nude images. Now, the detail of that legislation hasn't been really set out. We don't have that at the moment. They say it'll become as soon as possible. And they also say that if the tech firms come up with their own solution in the meantime,

and they think it's good enough, then they'll accept that. So there is a huge amount of detail to be worked out here. But what we are looking at is a change that will potentially impact every single. with a smartphone because if you're an adult, you're going to have to prove that you're an adult if you want to be able to take, send or view nude images on your device. Interesting. And indeed, you know, they're going to have to prove their age so that, you know, the firms know, who the children are. So in a sense it imposes age checks on everybody.

And I suppose the devil is in the details and perhaps we don't. know with this particular change. I'm thinking back to pornography legislation, for example, that people had to verify, etc. And they believe it has cut down massively on children being able to view sites like that. We don't know whether you need to verify specifically when you're trying to send a nude image or whether it will just be you need to verify to own that device. I think, you know, as I said, the detail hasn't been sort of set out in terms of the mechanism that this will operate by. But I think if you look at what they're asking for,

they're asking for a system that operates on a sort of fundamental level on your phone. I mean, effectively knows. It can kind of look at any image that you've taken, you've thought of sending, you receive, and say, is that a new image? And if it's a new image, block that image. Now, that is a very sort of fundamental level of operation, if you like, on a device.

So that is potentially a very big change. And they will need to know. I mean, the tech companies will need to know who their child users are. So, you know, they have some systems like that at the moment. I think it's sort of, you know, most likely you're going to get some kind of age verification at the point where you get a device and you have an account. So, I mean, this will change reality for a lot of people. Yes, and when we get into some of the details, we know that many of the images that are included in child sexual abuse imagery

are self-generated. So I know that's very much the push by the government in this particular aspect. Since 2021, I understand, Chris, there has been an Apple feature that blurs nude images. Yes, that's right. I mean, Apple has a communication safety feature, which is turned on, automatically for kids and teens as well as adults who haven't proven their age. It works on Apple devices and on devices running iOS and essentially it applies to Apple apps. So it covers FaceTime, iMessage and things like that.

What it doesn't cover and the ambition of the new legislation is it doesn't cover or all the third party apps as well. I mean, this is why it's such a huge step in a sense because it is the totality of your phone where there is this kind of effort to have a block if you're a child. And we'll come back to some of the privacy concerns that people may have as well, Chris, in just a moment.

But I do want to bring Soma in here who campaigns against sexual violence, particularly among younger members of our society. What's your reaction to the announcement? We definitely welcome the government's commitment to primary legislation. We're relieved that the government is prioritising children and taking action. You know, we have been collecting testimonies.

These are experiences that young people send into our online platform, sharing their stories of sexual violence, online abused, intimate image sharing. And, you know, they paint a picture of a horrifying reality. nudes being sent around like wildfire, you know, young girls being coerced and pressured and then being ostracized and then punished. It's a really, you know, it's a very real harm, online harm. And, you know, it is, it is incredibly worrying. And, you know, we would just really, you know, are relieved now to see this finally happening. But at the same time, we don't. feel that we you know this is moving fast enough um we you know this is happening every single day

the the real harm is there i don't think we can confidently say that today a child you know a child can still share and receive um an intimate image and take an intimate image right now and every day that goes by is is a real problem um you know and our kind of question is like you know how long can we weight. Ultimately, you know, what can we do in the meantime? And our solution is education. We need to be educating young people. And educating them in what way? Like I understand the broad premise, but like what do you do to try and convince a young person who's under tremendous pressure not to bow to that? So, you know, we go into schools and we're delivering this life-changing education every day. We are giving young people the skills and the tools and the knowledge to

recognize this kind of harm, to recognize that it's happening so that they can articulate it, so that they can seek support if they need it. When I was growing up, this was rife, this was happening to us, and we didn't have the words, we didn't have the language, we didn't know that it was wrong, it felt wrong, but we didn't have that framing or that confidence. Now, you know, young people need this. they absolutely need to understand the impact and, you know, what's going to happen if I share a nude image? What is the risk there? What is the, you know, what is the impact of sharing around these images on young people?

And that's some of the questions you're raising there. I can imagine you giving a girl voice, for example, with those particular issues. But what about the boys? What are you saying to them? I mean, it's the same messages. We, actually when we go into schools, we share an off-stead statistic, which is nine out of ten girls receive intimate images, and equally five out of ten boys also receive unsolicited, sexualized, intimate images.

So it's a problem happening on both sides. So, you know, and we ask them every time, are you surprised by this? And almost no child is surprised. Yet, we then, you know, use the same stat and we put it forward to teachers and to parents, and they are shocked every time. And I think, you know, I can't think of a more powerful illustration of the generational gap and the necessity to bridge that generational gap, this lack of understanding that the older generation have of young people's lives and of both boys and girls and what they're experiencing,

the harm that they are facing. There is such a need there. And I think this is something, a huge piece of our work, it's bridging those generational gaps. We need to educate parents. We need to educate teachers. Not in three months, not tomorrow now. Chris, let me bring you back in here. So Soma is very much on board with what the government is planning to do.

But of course, this is just primary legislation and just announcing plans. We don't know the details. We don't know how long, what the timeline would be. Maybe it could be a bargaining chip with the tech companies. I don't know if people have mooted that idea to try and get them to move along. I think there was a, that was kind of the announcement that we had back in June in a sense was that there was this explicit threat from the then Prime Minister, Sir Kiyos Dama, to say, you've got to come up with a solution or we will introduce legislation and they gave them three months. Now there were intense negotiations, tensions, the tech companies, according to the government, you know, have made changes. there's been progress, but it hasn't happened fast enough, they say.

But really, in a sense, we're at the status quo. We are at where we were in June with the threat of primary legislation to be introduced soon, but they're going to take their time to get it right, and also a sort of an option for the tech companies to come up with something of their own. I think if I remember the phrasing rightly, Lisa Nandy spoke about giving them an opportunity to lead, but not lag so you know

there's more pressure and I sure pressure is part of this let me turn to the issue of privacy because as I understand it this technology would operate on phones and tablets at device level was the way they described it and it would be

default so you would need to opt out of that measure by verifying your age if you wanted to send such an image but I suppose having the possibility or technology having the possibility of scanning all images that are on your device.

Some will raise privacy concerns, will say that it's a free speech issue, for example. Yes, I mean, I think there are two concerns. One is that because the tech companies have to know who the children are using the devices,

everybody has to go through some process of age, verification, age checks, and that means handing over information. and potentially that information being lost, misused, and so on. Then the other side of it is that this system effectively is scanning content on all, if you like, apps on the device when an image is received or attempting to be sent. I mean, some privacy groups have said this is sort of effectively building an infrastructure for surveillance.

I mean, it's sort of naked images now. Perhaps it could be expanded into to include other things. Maybe you're scanning for extremist content, that sort of thing. So there's a sort of, there's that sort of fear as well in terms of what this means about the potential for future surveillance. And in that sense of surveillance, I do understand this is something that police forces have been asking for for a long time. Very much so.

Not very long ago, we had senior leaders from the NCAA and the National Police Chiefs Council talking about the threat from sex distortion. That's where children are persuaded, groomed into sending intimate images and then those images are used to blackmail children into sending further images or even in some cases self-harming, for the perpetrator. And really, really graphic stuff. And there were briefings to journalists

that really showed the kind of problems that they were dealing with. I mean, the police described this as an organised crime, the product of organised crime in many cases. And, you know, they were very clear that controlling the ability to take nude images would be a key way in fighting this.

And certainly, you know, the internet, Watch Foundation, their stats, 27% of the images and video that they get ourselves generated. In other words, that's where there isn't another person in the room. It is effectively the child in control of the camera. And that points, they would say, to the need to act to protect children. And I will give the BBC's action line if you're affected by any of the issues that we're discussing this morning. it's BBC.co.com.uk forward slash action line where there's links to help and support.

I'd be curious for your thoughts, Soma, on privacy issues that are often raised when we talk about technology such as this. From our perspective, you know, our priority is children and protecting children and young people. And, you know, tech companies need to be optimising around that. They need to be building in safety by design. And, you know, we come at it from a survivor-centered perspective. We are hearing from young people every day, sharing the impact of what they experience and what they go through. You know, young people, 13, 12, being coerced to send images. Images then being shared around on Google drives, being treated as like a collection game between young people,

shared on Snapchat, WhatsApp, and the very real harm. you know, as a result, you know, this 12-year-old girl might then be ostracized and then completely shamed by her own community and then punished by her school and suspended. We're hearing from young people who are scared to talk about this because they think they're going to get in trouble. This is, you know, talked about it as a technological solution, for example. But some might say what's really at the heart of it is away from the technology, attitudes towards sex, attitudes towards consent,

pressure being placed upon girls, and that no law can change that immediately. This is rape culture in action, and what we are seeing is just rape culture manifesting on these platforms. What do you mean by that? You know, this is age-old sexism, attitudes and beliefs of objectifying women and girls, and these beliefs leading to,

experiences of violence and we are now seeing this age-old form of harm manifesting in the platforms that we're using. You know, these platforms are just increasing the surface area of our lives, right? So we have the real harm moving, migrating to online harm and that is real harm too. We are increasing the surface area. These are new frontiers and just turbocharging what young people and women have been experiencing for centuries. Somasara is the founder and CEO of everyone's invited. You can find her platform online. Also, Chris Valens, BBC's Senior Technology Reporter,

thank you so much for giving us the details on these plans. We did approach Google and Apple, the main mobile phone operating system manufacturer, as Chris was saying, about these announcements. Google told us we're pleased to have made progress and are fully committed to continuing to work with experts, legislators, app developers, and device manufacturers is to keep children safe

while also protecting privacy and access to information. Apple said we share the UK's commitment to combating exploitation and abuse online and have shared with UK officials future plans to strengthen communication safety

and other tools even further to help keep kids safe. And again, just to reiterate, you can find help with any of the issues we've discussed via the BBC's action line. Now, thanks very much for your messages coming in.

We're going to be speaking a little bit later about body hair. many of you getting in touch already about your experiences with it growing up or the way you feel about it now here's one when I was 11 both my older sisters insisted that it was time for me

to start shaving my legs when she was 11 I'm now 83 it has been a lifetime of removing hair from my face and body will it ever end asks Annabel where we're going to get into that a little bit later if you'd like to get in touch

844 is one way to do it Now, next to a rugby ball that is 3% smaller, but is causing a huge amount of debate. World Cup winners, England's Red Roses, will be taking part in a major international rugby tournament throughout September and October. This is the WXV Global Series. World Rugby, the International Government Body for Rugby Union, is trialling a smaller ball during the tournament. But the change has had mixed reviews to say the least. Joining me now is Rochelle, Rocky Clark, former rugby union player and one of the World Cup winning Red Roses,

alongside CEO of Women in Sports, Stephanie Hillborn. We need to get into the impact of this change on and off the pitch. Great to have both of you with us this morning. Rocky, let me start with you. Only 3% smaller. That does not sound like a big deal, but is it? And why? Yeah, it certainly is, actually.

So having trialled a smaller ball many years ago, The difference it made in your passing, you're kicking, not that I'm somebody that kicks the ball, but certainly, you know, there's a lot of kickers and hookers who are worried about how the flight of the ball is going to go. And personally, it was really, really different. So to only have four or five weeks of training with this size ball is going to be really hard for those internationals to play with it. But, you know, in the long term, it may well change the game and the speed of the game. And is that the reason, Stephanie, that it has been brought in? Why bring in a new ball if everything seemed to be going okay previously?

Thanks. I'm still traumatised by the conversations around body hair. But yeah, I think World Rugby have got a great record on women's rugby. And we've obviously seen the game go from strength to strength. It's really, really exciting. I think the reasons for trialing it, and it is just a pilot, the next couple of months again in the 15s. They've tried, they've trialled it in the sevens. There's been some positive feedback from that is, it's driven actually initially

from some players and unions who suggested it, but it's to see if the game can get even better for the women by adjusting it for the fact that, you know, we are equal, but we are not the same. And, you know, they're very science-led. I've got the data on hand size and hand grip. And like, on average, men's hands are ten. 11% longer than women's, which equates to about two centimetres. Hand span is also greater.

And particular hand grip is much stronger than men. So, you know, average hand grip is like 540 Newton's compared to 329. I was fascinated by these stats, particularly the 10% larger hands with men. Average, of course, we're talking about. But why is the ball then just 3% smaller if there's a 10% difference in hand size? I don't think you would normally equate it exactly. So I know basketball, they'll use a smaller ball, cricket. They use a slight smaller, lighter ball.

I'm absolutely not a ball technician. I think that Gilbert, who've been working with World Rugby, have tried a lot of iterations, the ball and where the sweet spot is. Again, Rocky, we know a lot more than I do about that. I've ever been allowed to play rugby when I was young. But there's a lot of technical, there are lots of technical aspects of this. I think the trial is driven from the right place, but equally, you know, what's so difficult for women in the big three sports where we were excluded for so long cricket, rugby football, is that the women in it have had to battle to get where they are. They've battled at every layer. They've had hideous experience in the sojourgony, mostly.

The stereotypes they've had to crush to get there. Everything has been beyond the effort that an elite man puts into. to get to the same level. So being suddenly thrown another challenge when things are going so well is inevitably pretty stressful and could be misused. You know, it could be misused against us by the, you know.

By those that say it's not equal. This is the definition perhaps of a curveball, Rocky. What do you make off the timing? Because a lot of the debate has been like this trial is happening during an international tournament when women are, you know, on the biggest stage. Well, yeah, there's a couple of sides to that argument. You've got a lot of eyes on, obviously.

The England team won the World Cup, and we've got a lot more people watching the game. But to do this with little preparation for those players who've played with a size five for many years, you've got players like Zoe Harrison, who's one of the best kickers in the world, she's saying that it's changing the flight of her kicking mechanics. So that is a concern of,

Obviously the arguments for it potentially will make catch passing easier, improving the accuracy, reducing knock-ons, that kind of thing. Will we see it come to fruition that quickly in this? I'm not sure. I think it's going to be quite difficult. But the reason they're doing this is because they've got a lot of data on elite women's international, so they can directly compare it. Wherever not people are agree with whether we should do it,

is another question. But it's certainly you can see why they're doing it but personally I'd probably do it in a different setting. You talk about Zoe Harrison there. I think she described it as the worst idea ever to be specific.

But it is interesting, right? Rocky, for example, athletics, hurdles are lower, basketball. Stephanie was mentioning there. Cricket, also they have made adjustments. Is it just something that perhaps

needs to be, I suppose, some patience, grit, determination, resilience and going through with it for the greater good in the long term? It potentially will, but we just need to get all the data and let the players decide. I think that's the most important thing.

Yes, there's all the statistics about men's hands being bigger and that kind of thing. But it's about those on the ground level who have been, training and playing with the size five for so long, but I'm definitely open to change, but for me, I'm just a little bit wary, especially during such a big competition, but I also understand why. And, you know, if this changes the good of women's rugby for the better and we see

more offload, we see a more exciting game, then so be it. I just want a lot more data and, and, you know, over time as well, we've seen that it's been trialled in the sevens and to a mixed response but I think we need some years of data and find out from the heart of the players. So offloading is when you're tackled and then you pass the ball back to one of your team members. Why is that better with a smaller ball potentially? So when you're offloading, sometimes you might be handing somebody off so one hand's busy. So you've only got the ball in one So if you've got the ball in one hand, the argument is that it's easier to grip and then to be accurate with it. And there's players like Nolly Waterman, who was one of my teammates, who's

very much for a smaller ball because she couldn't grip a size five with one hand. So, but it's the same, you know, there's differences in men's hand size, whether they've got small hands or big hands, the same, same with women as well. So yeah, it's just, it's just what works best for the game and the long one. Yeah. So, Stephanie, let me come back to you. How will you decide or how will the authorities decide whether this has been a success or not? Well, I certainly won't be decided, which I'm very pleased about.

World Rugby will look at the data and, you know, it is, they'll have to, they will share that, I know, with the High Performance Committee for the Women. And they will try and make a call, I guess, with the main players and unions about whether the potential for increased excitement and dynamism within the game is worse trying to promote this further because ultimately they can't stick control everyone's domestic rugby. And there is a big question about how if it was determined it could make the game better. And I think also easier for young girls to get into

because it makes it potentially slightly easier right at the bottom of the tree, then a large number of rugby balls would have to be bought around the world as well. which is not a small thing to consider because every club would need to invest in a whole new stack of balls. So it's the beginning of a process, I think, and it will be, you know, it is hard to retrofit a sport that's been going for so long, designed around, you know, one type of human to make it really perfect for another type of human. So it's not an easy thing, but I think we need to remember that after the Rugby World Cup last year, We estimated about 2 million girls were inspired to try rugby. So there is a huge amount of excitement around the game

and anything that can help get more girls playing, get more women staying in rugby. You know, it has to be a good thing. It's just, you know, the pain, particularly for those brilliant women at the top who've mastered playing with the size five, the pain that is being added to them is obviously not great. but I'm really all fearful of them. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

I'm thinking of Caroline Creado Perez. She had that book Invisible Women about how the whole world was kind of made from safety belts to whatever else in a man's image, so to speak, and that women's physique had not been taken into account. So in a lot of ways, it can be considered progress and that investment is going into it

and in another, of course, some of the players not loving it at the moment. Before I let you go, Stephanie, though, I do just want to get your thoughts. You says you were feeling traumatised by some of the comments on body hair. We're talking about it a little bit later in the programme. Quick reaction on,

Phoebe Bridgers basically showed leg hair at the Venice Film Festival and there's a lot of conversation about it. Any thoughts on that, how women have had to navigate? I think it's my personal most memorable experience. I've been told my mum, then never shave your legs. I wish Daphne and so as at school could never made me share of mine.

So I kept mine quite nice and hairy, right up to the age of about 15 or something. And then we did brilliant in a network tournament. Like we came like second in the country or something. And we were going to have to go on stage in front of a huge crowd of people to collect our little medals. And I shaved my legs like the day before that tournament for the first time, like leaving a patch, I think. And I like to think, why was I even having to think about the trauma of? of being, you know, ridiculed or humiliated from the natural hair at my legs at the time of our greatest triumph

than a game of an apple. So, you know, all of us have had similar experiences and I really relate to that lovely listener saying she's still doing it all her life because I think about my dear old mum. And it's an interesting conversation. That will be coming up a little later in the hour. As was this one, let me thank my guest,

Rochie Clark, former rugby union player and one of the World Cup winning Red Roses alongside CEO of Women in Spell. Stephanie Hilborn, thanks to both of you this morning. I did actually also approach World Rugby who are overseeing this trial. They sent us this statement. Unions and competitions have asked World Rugby to trial a specific ball for the women's game. The ball being trialled has been specifically developed by experts to be the same weight

and have the same aerodynamic properties in line with the size 5 ball. That's the original ball. This is a trial and opinions of players using it as well as game metrics will all be taken into account before any decision. is recommended to unions for consideration. So all that coming up, we'll continue following it. I want to bring a little of yesterday's program, the multi-award-winning singer-songwriter Emily Sande, join me.

We talked about what she's learned from fame coming quickly, how she finds inspiration for hit songs, and what keeps her grounded? I ask Emily, when she looks back over her career, what has she learned about the music industry and also about herself? I've learned that you have to keep that internal focus. I think that first album, the success was wonderful, but it really was quite a big surprise.

And there is this innocence of having no expectations. I wanted to release an album. I wanted to speak my truth. And sometimes after the success, you then try to put these expectations upon yourself, which I think just stifles you artistically. So I think the biggest thing I've learned is just relax and try and return to that innocence.

And hopefully it will resonate with people, but you can never second guess it. Yeah, I wonder, is there a way to do that? I was just thinking about you and your story, and there's such scrutiny, particularly when there's a huge debut, as we see with artists now, some that come into this studio. Like, is there a way to manage that success without being overwhelmed by it?

I think it's about staying small, keeping your circle small, because suddenly you think, I've got so many friends. I've got, you know, I'm so popular. And then really you're like, no, you're still the weird kid that needs to be back in the music room. The creative kid. Sorry, yes. The creative kid. So stay in the music room and keep the eccentricities

and keep the strangeness about you, you know, and don't get too caught up in the hype. It's easier said than done, but keep your focus on the music and expression. Bit of a highlight this week. Chair Dancing with Emily Sunday and Studio 80A here for Women's Hour. To find that full interview from yesterday,

just go to BBC Sounds. You can listen to us on your smart speaker as well. I'll just say play radio 4. And if you want to catch up with anything you may have missed, it's Alexa as BBC sounds to rewind to the time that you want. Growing businesses deal with the same problem, too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together.

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Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good, Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Now, let's turn to the second in our series, Daddy Issues,

where we look at the impact on women of having an absent father in their lives. On Monday, we heard Julie speak about the lifelong impact of not knowing her father's identity. You can listen back to that interview on BBC Sounds. But what if your father has been present throughout your life but then became absent due to an illness like dementia? How do you navigate that? Well, Haley is 39. She was an only child and the apple of her fourth. father's eye. Her dad, Tony, was formally diagnosed three years ago and lives with Haley,

her partner and their blended family. She wanted to talk about the impact of the illness and what it has had on her and her relationship. According to the Alzheimer's Society, there are currently around 1 million people living with a form of dementia in the UK, and 68% of unpaid carers of people with dementia are women. Haley has been documenting their journey on Instagram as a way finding support for herself and helping other carers. Our reporter Joe Morris went to meet them at the family home in Somerset. It's the eyes. It's all about the eyes.

Ah, this one. This is the photo of my dad. Just his eyes, sparkly, lovely smile, hair. Yeah, I just, that is my dad. I mean, he looks so happy and really cheeky. Yeah, he was very cheeky. Does he know he's your dad? Not always.

No. So some days he will know I'm his daughter. Sometimes he will call me Haley and he will know I'm his daughter. Some days he will tell me that he has a daughter called Haley. So yeah, and that's the hardest. Like, he will forget who I am. Oh, I love looking at old photos of him. I do it all the time. Do you? Yeah, just when I miss him. And what's that like for you, Haley, him not knowing you? Oh, horrible. Horrible. you've lost that comfort blanket that I want to be a good daughter

and I hate the days where I get frustrated. I really dwell on those. But then I think my own grief journey for him is still ongoing because technically he's gone. The man I grew up with, the man I idolised, the man, just the man I grew up with is not here anymore.

and I miss him every day. So I think then when a lot of my frustration probably also comes from anger, because I'm like, why? Why are you not here? Like, what? And yeah, like, my dad would hate this. And yeah, so there's a lot of that. How would your dad, when you were a kid,

have greeted you in the morning when he came downstairs? Oh, God, like, so I'm an only child, and I was just the apple of my dad. dad's eye. We were like joined at the hip. You know, he would have woken up, I'd have gone downstairs, we'd have had our breakfast together, give me a kiss, give me a cuddle, like, we were so close. We just chatted all the time. Like, we were like best friends. Like, just if ever I woke up in the night, it'd be my dad that would come and see to me. If, you know, if I was poorly, it'd be my dad. Like, my dad literally did everything.

Dad? He's gone out. He's gone out. Yeah. In his slippers. She's gone out of his slippers. Yeah. What normally happens when he goes out? He'll just go for a walk, but it's very hot. He hasn't had loads to drink, so... Do we need to go and look for him?

Does he normally tell you when he's going, or he just goes? No, at the minute he will just leave. But then again, you're like trying to balance his freedom, his dignity, versus then keeping him safe. Whereas really, you're just thinking, all my days, why? It's frustrating. So you've been documenting your journey with your dad and living with him with Alzheimer's on Instagram.

What made you start that? I started doing it because I realized that my experience was maybe different from what I was seeing online. I felt like I started to feel this guilt when I was reading posts that say, you know, it's an honour to care for a parent and it's a privilege and you need to make the moments last and I was like when I'm in those situations I don't want them to last

and that sounds really horrible and some days I don't feel like it's a privilege and why am I feeling like this when everyone's saying it's actually really wonderful so I just started sharing bits that were actually real how old were you when your mum and dad split out? I was nine yeah nine when they said. split up. And you chose to live with your dad? Yeah, they gave me the option and said who'd like to live with and I chose my dad. Why did you choose your dad? Just because I'd always been a daddy's girl. It was just the right thing for me to do. Very difficult probably for my

mum. He's home. Dad's home. You know, Tony and Haley, that was, it was... Tony and Haley. Yeah, like that if you ask any of my family, they would have said, oh, she would stay with her dad. I think it was just known. He took me to the football, big wolves fan. Big wolves fan. Big wolves fan, yeah. So, yeah, we would go up and,

yeah, we met all the players. Amazing. Like, I just thought it was super cool. My dad loved it. I always remember my dad, like, make sure that you tell the mum, if I'd ask for a sleepover, he'd be like,

can you make sure that you tell the mum that it's just me here, you know? They know. He just was worried, you know, concerned. I always just remember that. like he was just my comfort blanket. I think we were each other's in a way. And then, you know, when I broke up with my first boyfriend

and didn't have a house and went out and started living in Bristol with a load of girls, he was the man that taught me around, this is actually how you do bills, Haley, and this is what you need to know. And, you know, and then when he split up with his ex-wife, I was then, again, his comfort blanket and offered him to come and live with us and, you know, help and support him. So, Haley, your dad was already living with you? Yes.

when he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. When did you first recognise that things were beginning to go wrong with your dad? His decision making was questionable, empathy. That lack of my loving dad was disappearing. The memory. There was memory, things he couldn't remember, things he couldn't. He started struggling with some of his driving. My dad is honestly was the safest driver.

And there was another, situation when my ex and I were getting divorced where we sat my dad down to explain that we were getting divorced and we sat him down on a it was a Sunday and said like listen we got some news told him and he just looked at us and said I have to go to the vet about the dog and I think he just left my ex and I literally looked at each other and were like bewildered because this man who would have given me a hug given my ex-husband a hug and said, okay, like,

just be nice to each other, look after the kids, I can hear what I would have expected him to say. And then probably behind closed doors, said to just me, anything you need, you're all right? Literally nothing. Just... What did you think when he did that?

Did you know something was wrong? Yeah. You're right? You okay? Where'd you go? Not that far. I know, but you have been gone quite a long time. I've got into the lands you were from Worcester.

Ah. And obviously finally got him diagnosed in the March, 2023. So, yeah, I knew. You've got your slippers on, no, Dad, haven't you? Sort of, yeah. Yeah, definitely sort of. But that's what you need to tell me. You need to tell me you're going out, don't you?

Yeah? Yes. Right, take them off and I'll make you a cup of tea. All right. Haley, how would you describe your dad's absence? Oh, wow. Extremely lonely. There are days when I would love to speak to him about things that are going on or, you know,

get excited about, you know, the World Cup. We've just had the World Cup. He would have loved that. Just an emptiness. just an emptiness, like Mother's Day I find really hard. He would always be the one to turn up with flowers for me. You know, not because the kids would get me stuff, but he would just turn up with flowers, you know,

to then have that Mother's Day where he doesn't even recognise it or put his arm around me. That just makes you feel extremely alone. So I guess I'm on this journey of letting that go. and ultimately like I am just a daughter and so that's that's hard

you're grieving losing the person even though physically they are still in front of you and when he does pass there'll be another grieving process so it's kind of like the longest goodbye that's what they call it

every day is the best day every day is the best day that he's going to be so how he shows up and every day Alzheimer's takes something and there's no help there's no help you know we were given a diagnosis that's life-changing and all we walked away with was a leaflet and we're fortunate that you know we my dad was very clever and had a good job and has a good pension so we can afford some of the care but like even that is so expensive.

You can't just be like that and your relationships stay the same, so it does affect it. So I have to really try now to think about the dad that I'm caring for and take it back to that childhood dad, whereas sometimes I think, why should I do this? You know, and that, I have to battle with that a lot in my head. He was an amazing storyteller. I would always tell me stories about a mouse called Cyril,

or the best storyteller, which is why I think I get so frustrated when there's no chat anymore. I know the truth of the stories that he tells now, you know, the ones he fabricates a little bit, I know the real stories. So they're all in a little box inside me. And, yeah, it's, I guess, my role to try and bring them back to life as much as I can

without correcting him or telling him that his story's wrong. Yeah, I am, I am the keeper of his memories. and I try and do everything I can to keep those alive. I receive a bottle of rum to warm my tongue and that's the life for me. Do you remember that one? On the platform? Yes, I did. Do you remember?

And everyone started joining in. So the series we're running on Women's Hour is about paternal absence. And we're calling it Daddy Issues. When you hear the term Daddy Issues, what does that mean to you? I don't relate that actually to me, daddy issues. Like if I relate it to my situation, I... Mine is that loss. I just miss him.

I just miss him. Probably this is the hardest thing I've ever had to do is care for him. Like, that's my bit of hardship. There might come a point, or will there ever come a point, Haley, where you consider not having... not living with him or how will you manage it moving forward? Yeah, we talk about this quite a lot and I think about it a lot. It's like, when does it become unmanageable?

I think there's a few things in my head. I'm like, when I can no longer keep him safe. So at the minute, I know the routes he walks. So if he goes wandering, I kind of know where I can find him. Air tags in shoes, one pair of shoes that he wears on and off. So if ever he does go out, I know he'll be wearing his shoes, hopefully not his slippers. because I'm balancing, keeping him safe with his dignity. So I'm juggling those two things.

So when I can't keep him safe and if it impacts the children too much, that's the point in time now where this situation is no longer viable. And not everyone, Haley, would do what you're doing and would want to look after their parent. Sometimes I don't want to. Sometimes you don't want to. No. Yes, yes.

I, it's just happened, you know, and that maybe sounds terrible, but there are some days where I do think I don't want to do this anymore. But then something within me, I just find that bit of strength to go, but I just, we'll just do it one more day. No, I can't. No. Do you remember his stories about Cyril, Cyril the mouse? Civil the mouse?

Yeah. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do know. Yeah, yeah. Why do you do it? Oh, no one has ever asked me that question ever. I do it because of who he was. Yeah, yeah, who he was of what he gave me, how he looked after me, and there's no one else. Who was he? The most charismatic, caring, always right?

you know, stubborn, happy, fun that. So although he shows none of it now, I think that's his kind of living legacy through me and through the children. Not that bit. But remember Cyril? Yeah, I used to like telling stories, didn't you? Was it Cyril the mouse?

Cyril the mouse. Yeah, that was nice, wouldn't it? It was, yeah. So moving. I thought to hear from Haley and her father speaking to Joe Morris. Haley will be running 100 miles in five days to raise money for the Alzheimer's Society this month.

We wish her well. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard, you can find links to help and support via the BBC Action Line. Our next episode from the series on Daddy Issues will be on Friday. Here's a message that has come in this morning on body hair.

I put a photo of myself with my arms up on a dating site. this guy got back to me as he had never been out with a woman with body hair and he was fascinated. We did meet up. He needed a bit of an education. So says Deb's lots of messages coming in.

We're talking about this today because singer-songwriter Phoebe Bridgers made her Venice Film Festival debut this week. The top of conversation around her red carpet appearance was not about her role as an actor or her Gucci skirt but her visible leg hair. Well, I'm joined now by Jeremy. journalist Eile Doren, who has written about not always shaving her legs. She has a piece in the

Times. Ily, you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Was it a very conscious decision not to remove your body hair and also what it's been like to write about it? It's primarily laziness. I mean, I just never included it in my shower routine. And then it's kind of like, I'll forget. And then it's completely just out of feeling like there are social pressures where you're like, I'm going to a wedding or I'm going, I'm going to be around people, like, that I respect perhaps that like I need to, you know, shave my legs or something. But I do find it so crazy that, you know, Phoebe Bridges leg hair, which you really have to zoom in to see it. It's not exactly like, you know, the way that it's kind of being, you know, the way it's landed, it's like she's kind of been parading

her legs around and she's like a woolly mammoth. Like you really have to zoom in. And yet it's the same kind of, that's been received almost the same way as Julia Roberts in the 90s when she had, you know, hairy armpits at the Premier of Notting Hill. And she, I read what she said about it. And she was like, I just didn't look at my armpits that day. And as you have probably seen, and I enjoyed reading your article and, you know, you're poking a bit of fun and tongue in cheek with some of the comments, with some of the statements you make as well. But I was quite struck reading the comments. And I don't know whether you read the comments or not. But my goodness, you seem to, you know, hit a nerve with so many people having such strong opinions about

it. Oh my God. I stay away from the comments. They're always incredibly scary. But, I mean, what I think is so interesting, there was an article, I think, earlier this summer, and it was a comedian writing about having an orgasm for the first time when she was 28. And she put all of the comments that she'd gotten from that. And it was all men, you know, all men having an opinion on a female orgasm. And so I think that it is so crazy. I have not read the comments because they, as I said, scare me, but I'm guessing the majority of it is men. It's men and women and people debating between themselves, but I just point to that, and I'm not saying for you to read the comments, because of everybody has like doubled down on whatever their position is. But many Gen Z women were hearing, you know, people

in their teens or late 20s, they would call themselves, you know, proudly, hairy, not succumbing to the pressure. Do you think there's a generational difference? Yeah, I think so. I think that, you know, I'm a millennial and I think growing up, there are a lot of women who laced their hair off. I knew women who even wax their arms. And I think, you know, I just didn't particularly care enough to do any of that. It was like expensive. I was like, I don't know, it doesn't offend me. But I think definitely with Gen Z, there's more of just kind of embracing the fact that it's hair that's on your body and you don't like just not taking the time to like shave something because you don't want to is somehow like an act of feminism but you know we're just people with hair on our bodies you know

I want to read some of the comments that have come in I because I was speaking earlier we also Stephanie Hilburn a CEO of women in sport who gave us a really interesting anecdote that she had when she was growing up here's one um I've had many arguments with my 30 year old daughter about her need to remove all of her body hair I believe this is a trend entirely driven by social media. Pubic hair serves a biological function. Why risk cutting your skin, shaving in such a sensitive area? I'm a nurse and she is a clinical psychologist.

We agree to differ. So says Karen from Hull. There are many more, though, coming in. Here's another. As a 30-year-old man who was raised by a sister and a mum, I find it baffling when I'm asked if I mind women not shaving their body hair. I would see my opinion is completely irrelevant and unnecessary.

Here's another. I've never shaved my legs and I'm 58. I decided as a rebellious teenager that if men didn't shave their legs, why should I? I even wanted to dye my leg hair pink to draw attention to it. Now I'm older postmenopausal and haven't worn trousers. For most of my older adult life, the hair has gone. Nobody ever commented on it when I was younger. So says Philippa.

But I can tell by the amount of messages that are coming in that it is definitely something that people feel there is somewhat of, a social stigma about it. Do you think it's the last taboo? You know, I was reading one of the comments that says it's somehow the body positivity movement seemed to leapfrog over the hair debate. Yeah, it's interesting because it is so strange

that just the presence of hair can have such a visceral reaction from people. I think that, I mean, my hope would be that it just wouldn't cause headlines, you know, and that people can choose to remove their hair if they want to or they can choose not to and it's not going to be like you're walking down the street naked on a Monday afternoon, you know.

There's another aspect to this. According to the market research company, Grandview Research, says the UK laser hair removal market, this is just laser hair removal, was worth 163 million pounds in 2025. There is a commercial part to all of this. Yeah, I mean, I was looking back at the vintage

kind of adverts for hair removal. I mean, it's a big industry that's been going on for quite a long time. I mean, yeah, I mean, laser hair removal I haven't ever looked into. But, I mean, there are so many different ways. I mean, I was talking to one of your producers about, like, hair removal cream. I mean, and you're just walking around half naked, like a cowboy for 15 minutes, while you're waiting for. And let's not even talk about the smell.

It's been really interesting to get the conversation going. Thanks to the message that came in as well. about facial and body hair being the last taboo, particularly on body positivity. Lots of comments coming in. Great to always have them with you. Thanks so much for your contributions this morning to Women's Hour. I want to thank Ailey Doran.

Her piece is in The Times. If you'd like to read it, you can comment or read the comments if you want. More tomorrow. Do join us on Woman's Hour. Kylie will be in. She will be talking about Thalma and Louise. Do you remember that film from the 90s?

Well, Oscar-winning writer Callie Kori has adapted the story for the stage. so she's going to join Kylie as the new production opens at London's Young Vic. That is going to be a wonderful show, no doubt. We've all got a few memories of Thelman Louise and that cliff. I will see you next week. Thanks for your company. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

A new series of rarely heard tales from World War II. This was a suicide mission deep into enemy territory. This was a crazy mission. And by goodness gracious me, men had guts. I'm Helen Lebonne Carta, and for BBC Radio 4, this is History's Secret Heroes. Anyone who crossed the threshold was immediately entranced by her. She was very sexy.

She was obviously close to power. Listen first to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius. Good, Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription.