Woman's Hour - #NunsToo: Nuns abused by priests and bishops

Episode Date: February 7, 2019

Pope Francis has for the first time publicly acknowledged the scandal of priests and bishops sexually abusing nuns, and says he is committed to doing more to fight the problem. Jenni speaks to survivors; Rocio Figueroa a theologian and lecturer, and author, Doris Reisinger Wagner, who were both once nuns and to Sister Sharlet Wagner, a Sister of the Holy Cross and the current President of The Leadership Conference of Women Religious in the US.A report released by the University and College Union suggests that bullying and stereotyping is blocking the professorial path for black women. Dr Nicola Rollock conducted the research and spoke to 20 of the 25 female black professors in the UK including Gina Higginbottom, Emeritus Professor of Ethnicity and Community Health at the University of Nottingham. They join Jenni to discuss the explicit and more subtle ways that black female academics are prevented from attaining the highest positions at UK universities.American actor and Paralympian Katy Sullivan plays Ani, who becomes quadriplegic following a car accident in Martyna Majok’s Pulitzer prize winning drama The Cost of Living. Katy talks to Jenni about how the play explores attitudes to disability, race, class and wealth.And the fourth in our series of family secrets. A woman we are calling Liz found out her father’s secret at the worst possible time.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the podcast for Women's Hour for Thursday the 7th of February. There are nearly 19,000 professors in the UK's universities. Only 25 are black women. What's blocking their career progression? In the next in our series of family secrets, the daughter who discovered something shocking soon after the death of her father. And the

Pulitzer Prize winning play, Cost of Living, opens at the Hampstead Theatre in North London. Katie Sullivan, an actor and Paralympic athlete, plays the role of a quadriplegic in need of care. She first performed in America. As I'm sure you heard in the news yesterday, Pope Francis has acknowledged for the first time that the long-rumoured scandal of the sexual abuse of nuns by Roman Catholic priests and bishops is true. It's also been found to be a widespread problem which has been happening across the world and some women have begun to tell what has happened to them. Earlier I spoke to Sister Charlotte Wagner, the president of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious in the United States. I also talked to two women who are former nuns and survivors of sexual abuse. Rocio

Figueroa is a theologian and lecturer who was born in Peru and now lives in New Zealand. Doris Reisinger Wagner is German and joined us from Freiburg. Why had she chosen to become a nun when she left school at the age of 19? Well you know I was raised in a very Christian believing family know, I was raised in a very Christian-believing family. Also, I was raised in a very poor family, so there were not many possibilities for me when I grew up. And last but not least, I just had this conviction that I had a vocation to consecrated life,

and it was a kind of adventure. Also, it felt like empowering, and it was a kind of adventure also it felt like empowering because it was a different way than the one that my other friends were choosing you know going out with boys and and and reflecting on their appearance all the time and I had the feeling I do something significant. And Rosia what about you what what drew you to become a nun? Well, I come from Peru and from a very Catholic middle-class family in Lima. So my school was run by nuns. And since I was a little kid, I strongly felt God's calling. And I wanted to do something for the world because I live in a very poor country.

So I felt like urged to do something. And when I was 15 years old, I came across this very conservative Catholic movement in Peru that was catching the attention of of Lima's high and middle class young people and my brother and friends were participating and I joined the group. And how, Rocio, did the abuse begin to take place in your case? Well, I was 15 years old and it began with the founder asked me to begin a spiritual direction with a vicar and he became my spiritual director. And after months of gaining my trust, he asked me and some young men to bring our sports gear

and to study some yoga. And after some group sessions, he moved into personal sessions. And he said to me that he will teach me exercises that will help to develop my self-mastery and control over my sexuality. I was 15, very naive, very young, and no prior sexual experience. So he began touching me all over. And I thought, no, that cannot be him. He's a superior. He's a good person. I am thinking wrongly. He was good. I was the evil one. So what

I felt during these exercise sessions must be my fault. I felt very guilty and disorientated. And the sexual abuse, he never raped me, but he absolutely committed sexual abuse in my regard. And Doris, what happened in your case? I would say that before I was sexually abused, I was spiritually abused. So I didn't have a possibility to choose my confessor freely. I was not allowed to read books. There were no personal friendships between sisters, so I was not allowed to speak to anybody about personal matters and so on. And that all affected me in a way.

I lost my self-confidence and I became very, very weak in a way. And five years into this, there was the male superior of the house who began to approach me. Whenever I was working on my own, he would come into the room and just stand beside me and talk. And eventually he would hug me. And at some point he just came into my room in the evening and started to undress me and rape me. It sounds as though classically you were being groomed. Yeah, that's exactly what happened, yeah. And at what point, Doris, did you realize that you were being abused?

Well, actually, you know, as soon as he started to address me, that was a shock. And I understood what was going to happen and said I couldn't believe it. But I knew that that was not right. He was not allowed to do this. I was unable to think about what I wanted or didn't want because for years I was trained not to think about what I want and what I don't want. But I knew it wasn't right. And I definitely didn't want it to happen. But I was completely convinced he is a priest. This is my vocation. This is a sacred

community with papal approval. It was impossible, you know. I just was unable to understand that abuse was happening in this world, in this perfect world where I was living in. So it took years until I really understood that what had happened was actually rape and it was abuse and it was not right and that I could speak out about it. Rocio, at what point did you realize that something very wrong was happening? Well, after months happening these terrible exercises, I felt so badly and I just got ill. And I said to him, please stop because I think this is not right. And he really stopped because I was really firm, but the damage was already done. But I couldn't say it was an abuse in those times. I blame myself. And for years and years, I had a very

low self-esteem and guilt and confusion and very defensive. And after 20 years, I needed 20 years, but I always was with all those thoughts and problems. Just after, yeah, 20 years, when I went to Rome, a priest, a very good man, talked to me and asked me, Rocio, why are you so defensive with men? As I saw him, that he was a good person, I told him what happened to me. And I think I was already prepared, mature enough to face what had happened to me. And he said, Rocio, that was sexual abuse. You are a victim. And for the first time, I realised when I was

40 years old, that I was a victim of sexual abuse. And what impact has this had on your faith? Well, it had a strong impact. First of all, because I questioned everything, questioning the General Vicar, and then realizing that there were more victims, it had an incredible impact because the people I trust, the ones who were representing God, were fake, were not real. I felt abandoned, confused, abandoned by God, and betrayed. And then little by little, I tried to purify my faith and say, OK, my faith is in Jesus, not in the people. And I asked God to help me.

And thank God my faith didn't come from this institution. My faith came from my family and from my mother, that they were very good people. And Doris, what about you? What impact has this had a severe faith crisis, really, because my first impulse was to think, even though this was not right. If I spoke out, it would damage the church, so God wants me to be silent. And as long as I thought this, it was unbearable. And I came to a point where I thought, you know, if God wants me to be silent on what I have suffered so his church does not suffer damage, no, no, no, no, no. God does not want me to die because if God exists, he has created me and he has created me with this desire to lead a good life and to be loved and to have a meaningful life, a self-determined life. And so

eventually I met another priest in the community whom I was able to talk to. And gradually, we fell in love with one another. And there was one decisive moment where we just held each other for hours. And it was such a strong moment. And I knew I was not supposed to do this. But at the same time, I knew if God exists, then this is what God has done for me. He has sent me this person. And actually, this is how I survived, because there was another person in my life, somebody who loved me. Sister Charlotte, at what point did you become aware that this kind of abuse was happening?

My earliest awareness was as, I would say, a very young sister. I was temporarily professed, so I had just made first vows, and I was missioned to Uganda. And I can remember talking with a doctor from, I believe she was from Holland, who ministered at the local Catholic hospital. And she talked about seeing young women who had come to her for a physical, they had to have a physical exam before entering a religious congregation. And she had seen young women who were HIV positive, in some cases were pregnant, and the women who had these issues would pretty much tell the same story, that they had to get a letter of recommendation from the parish priest to enter the religious congregation, and the parish priest would demand sexual favors in exchange for the letter of recommendation.

In talking to the sisters in my own congregation who had been there much longer and were perpetually professed, they said they had made the decision to stop requiring those letters of recommendation from the parish priest because they had heard that this was happening in some instances, and that was my earliest awareness of it. How widespread would you say this abuse has been? Geographically, I would say around the world.

I don't doubt that the abuse has occurred in every country. Africa and Asia are probably the biggest areas, but that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred in other areas. Both Rocio and Doris experienced it in other parts of the world. And why would you say it has been happening to such a degree? There are probably a number of reasons. I believe the culture of secrecy is one, that it is possible for these stories are not coming out or have not been coming out in a way that would be helpful. I was talking to a member of the clergy a few weeks ago about the

sexual abuse, and his view was that it was a combination of a sense of entitlement plus opportunity. And so I believe part of the issue is that sense of entitlement on the part of some in the clergy, the culture, the clericalism, plus the opportunity that presents itself when you have very young, I think both Rocio and Doris talked about how young they were, and somewhat naive. And the priest is able to play on that naivete, that youthfulness, and that sense that the priest is someone who should not be questioned. He's a good man. He's a holy man. So it gives a tremendous opportunity. Rosia, why did you decide finally that you would speak out about what happened to you?

Well, because in the community, the one who committed abuse against me, he died. And all the community thought he was a holy man and a saint. And his cause of beatification was promoted. And so I felt that that could not happen. And Doris, what about you? Why did you decide you would speak out about it? Well, you know, first in 2010, I was still a nun then. And I saw the headlines in the newspapers coming up about sexual abuse of children. And I thought that, you know, unless victims speak out, this will never change. And that was the first moment. But still for years, I thought I was the only nun

to whom this ever happened. Priests do not rape nuns. And then I studied theology and I decided to do some research on this. And I found reports that had been sent to Rome by Maura O'Donoghue, who was a U.S. nun. Was she Irish or U.S.? I don't know. But she had reported cases together with others,

cases from 23 countries. So just what Sister Charlotte said, you know, it's a very global issue. And horrible cases about nuns who had been forced to abort, and even nuns who had died during abortions. And I was so shocked. And at the same time, I felt relief because I knew I'm not the only one. And then I found a study that had been carried out in 1998 in the US by researchers. And this study suggests that approximately 30% of nuns experience some kind of sexual abuse. And when I saw these numbers and these cases, I just thought, you know, everybody who is able has to speak out on this.

Because what also happened in the last years is that I met other victims and I saw just in what a terrible state many of them are. They are really unable to speak out. They cannot lead a normal life, you know, and I realized how lucky I was. And this just made me all the more determined to speak out, not on my behalf, but on the behalf of so many others. Sister Charlotte, what do you want to see the Vatican do to expose and punish those responsible and protect vulnerable young nuns? I want to see some systemic change so that priests and bishops are held accountable. I believe perhaps a commission made up of women religious, clergy and laity, really studying this issue and recommending concrete changes, not a commission that comes out with a study that's set aside,

but makes concrete recommendations that the Vatican then puts into effect. And I believe it's critical that women be included in the reforms and included in more than just a token role. If there are only clergy around the table, the issue is seen through that lens. Women have a different perspective. We need these differing perspectives around the table. Clearly, one of the things that needs to happen is accountability for priests and for bishops who are accused. Right now, I believe the Vatican leaves it to the individual diocese to deal with the issue. That's not enough. The Vatican needs to step in and really take some strong action. I can talk about things congregations can do of women religious to help educate young

sisters, help teach them what to do when they're approached, not put them in situations of vulnerability. And I believe that needs to happen, but that puts the onus on the religious congregation. And we need to get to a culture such that the congregation doesn't need to protect the sister. Doris, what would you want a young vulnerable nun to know if she was entering a religious life now? Well, first of all, I would wish that there are no young vulnerable nuns, but that every nun in every continent on this earth knows that she is somebody, that she has rights, and that the ideal of her life is not to be completely selfless. This ideal of selflessness and always smile and always be there for others and never have own

wishes, this has to go. And I wish that the Vatican would promote a different ideal of religious life and would support women and women communities who want to build up and form and shape a new ideal according to which every young sister can live, that she knows she has rights and that her superiors defend her and support her in becoming a strong and self-determined individual. And Rocio, what do you want to see? Well, really, I think the change has to be profound systemic change, because it's not about just we need to protect the victims, but also we have a system that has enabled the abuse. We have to rethink priesthood. It's now a separated, elitist, exalted group of people. Women in church unfortunately we are citizens of second class

and so the abuse will continue because it's not just a sexual abuse is financial dependency of young sisters is financial dependency of congregations is advantage of a spiritual direction is the inferior position of women that have been educated for centuries to see themselves as inferior, subservient, and they have to obey the priest. So if we don't change all the culture in the church, the problems will continue. I was talking to Rocio Figuero, Doris Reisinger Wagner, and Sister Charlotte Wagner. We did approach the Vatican press office for a response and they say one is being prepared. Now a report released by the University and College Union publishes the figures for the number of professors employed in academia in the United Kingdom. There are nearly

19,000 in all the majority nearly 70 percent are white men. Then come white women at 22.9% and at the bottom of the scale are black women. There are 25 of them, 0.1% of the total. So what is blocking their path to progression to the top of the academic tree? Well Gina Higginbottom is Emeritus Professor of Ethnicity and Community Health at the University of Nottingham. Dr Nicola Rollock is Reader in Equity and Education at Goldsmiths University of London and she carried out the research. Nicola what prompted you to do this job? Look at this research. Good morning Jenny and apologies I've got a cold but I've been told I sound husky apparently. Sounds good to me. Well, I've been concerned for some time about the low number of black female professors. And in this context, black, we mean those of Caribbean, African and other black backgrounds. So this is the first time, to my knowledge, that any research has been carried out looking specifically at this group. So I've been

concerned, why are there so few? And indeed, what are their experiences in reaching professorship? So why are there relatively so few? I mean, 0.1% of the total is very low. Yeah. And just to kind of play with the figures that you gave and put them in kind of a different context, around 15% of white male academics are professors. So around 30, just under 13,000. Around 6% of white female academics are professors. So just over four and a half thousand. And then as you've spoken to, just 25, there are just 25 black female professors. So just 2% of black female academics are professors. And indeed, when I spoke to 20 of those 25, they shared with me what were really quite painful and sad accounts of bullying and discrimination and harassment throughout their careers. Gina, if I can bring you in here, what was your route to actually becoming a professor?

Well, my route was through a vocational and professional route as a nurse midwife and health visitor. So I was a clinical nurse midwife and health visitor for 20 years. And I actually, during that course of my clinical career, I studied quite a lot, attaining a first degree, master's degree, postgraduate diploma, and realised that I was really very interested in research and the academic side of health care. So I obtained a PhD and subsequently obtained a position as a lecturer in Russell Group University. So Nicola, how does Gina's experience compare with other women in the study? That's a clear progression through getting more and more qualifications. Well, just to put this into context for listeners,

the usual route for progression is lecturer, senior lecturer, reader or associate professor, which is what I am, and then full professors. That's the usual career trajectory. Gina's, Professor Higginbottom's experiences were quite reflective of what I heard from other respondents in the study. So one woman spoke, for example, about having her hand up for half an hour before the chair of the meeting, a white male, turned to her. Someone else talked about being mistaken for the student rep instead of actually acknowledging

her role as a professor. And what's really key here is that those acts might sound relatively trivial in isolation, but actually many of the respondents are in their 50s and 60s. And these incidents characterise their entire career journeys. They're repeated time and time again. And I think the key thing here is when black female professors, such as Professor Higginbottom, compared their experiences to their white female counterparts. And what they found was that they would go for a job position and find that they, as black women, weren't appointed to a role where their white female counterparts were not seen as being as qualified. Gina, to what extent did you experience those roadblocks that Nicola describes? Well, I have experienced

roadblocks. At the same time, I've had a fantastic, productive and very enjoyable academic career, but there have been challenges. And I do believe at times these challenges are really related to my social identity as a black woman. And most often what I've experienced is a process of what I describe as marginalisation. And this is quite often manifested in perhaps being omitted from the organisation of meetings, missed off distribution lists of certain publications, despite formal agreements being previously made about these publications. And these effects, of course, are cumulative in nature, and often they seem quite minor. But when they're viewed in their entirety, it's quite a demoralising experience and constitutes

a multifaceted experience of marginalisation and discrimination. How then, Gina, did you find ways of dealing with any difficulties? I think one of the most important things to do is to really network with others in the same position as you because they can provide enormous support for you. And it's really vital, I think, to have a mentor and a coach and someone who can guide you and advise you through your professional career, I think is pretty critical. And Nicola, what would you recommend to improve the trajectory for a new generation of black

academics coming up? Well, one of the things that we're required to do when we're putting in applications for professorship is commonly you need the approval of the head of department. And actually, in many of the cases, in terms of the women I spoke to, the heads of department were themselves part of the problem. So I'd like to see the sector review the needs for head of departments to take to give their approval. I'd also like to see racial justice training being given for all line managers and senior staff. And I want to be very clear here, Jenny, I don't mean unconscious bias training.

I mean specifically training that looks at issues of structure and also white privilege. Dr Nicola Rollican, Professor Gina Higginbottom, thank you both very much indeed for being with us this morning. And we would like to hear from you on this one. If you've been through this and you've had similar experiences to Gina's, do let us know. You can tweet or indeed you can email. Now, still

to come in today's programme, Katie Sullivan and her role in the Pulitzer Prize winning play, The Cost of Living. It's a part she played in America and is now at the Hampstead Theatre in London. She's also a Paralympic athlete. And the serial, another of Jenny Eclair's little lifetimes.

And the newest late-night Woman's Hour podcast is out. You can hear their take on twerking and you can subscribe through BBC Sounds. Now for the fourth in our series about family secrets. A woman we're calling Liz found out about her father's secret at a particularly difficult time in her life. She met Joe Morris at her home. What was the hardest thing about discovering her family secret? Finding out that my parents had kept a secret from us for so long. That was the hardest thing.

So not the secret itself? Not the secret itself. Well, speaking for myself, and I think my brothers would probably say the same thing, it was finding out that my loving parents had kept a secret from us for so long. So where does your story begin? What I know of the story began in 2006, just after my father died. What happened? My mother let slip to my brother. My brother was going through the probate form for my father with her and he'd gone through all the routine questions

and there was a question, does the deceased have any other children? And she said, yes, he does. He was obviously very taken aback and I believe he thought she didn't understand, first of all, and said it again, she said, yes, he does. He had had an affair 50 years previously and there was a daughter that was the result of this affair so in fact we had a half-sister. My brother then had to phone me up and my other brother to tell us about it which was

obviously devastating for us all. How much of a shock was this to you Liz? It was a big shock, it was a big shock that there was a half-sister, but the main shock was the fact that we knew that they'd kept it secret from us for so long. That was the most upsetting thing. I was also later, because it preyed on my mind for quite some time, concerned that my father was dying for quite a few weeks and thinking of him in his hospital bed, probably thinking about his life and knowing that he'd got another child somewhere that he had no contact with. And as a parent, I can't imagine not being able to make contact with one of my children.

My mum didn't really understand at the time why we were so upset. It was a very difficult time because we were all grieving and she was obviously grieving terribly for my father and we were trying to support her and she didn't understand why we were so upset by it. Why didn't your mum understand why you were so upset? What did you say to her? She thought we should be more upset about her

and what she'd gone through and not the fact that she hadn't told us. She couldn't see the problem. In fact, she said to me, you won't tell your children, will you? And my children were obviously grown up see the problem. In fact, she said to me, you won't tell your children, will you? And my children were obviously grown up at the time. And I said, I don't keep secrets from my children. Maybe it's a different generation.

Things have moved on so much. I think that was the big thing, that she couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to keep it from my children. How long did your mum keep the secret for? 50 years. And it was almost like they forgot it. Because that's what family secrets are, really, the things that have happened that you put away and don't talk about.

And I presume they didn't talk about it. We'll never know. Growing up, Liz, did you have any inkling of this? Is there any now looking back, you know, for the benefit of hindsight, do you think, oh, actually, maybe that makes sense? I do remember when I was 10 or 11 complaining that my parents didn't have the money to buy me something that I wanted

and my mother took me to one side and said, well, we have lots to buy. Dad's looking after this little girl who, a friend of his, he died when they were in the army, and he promised to help look after her. And so he's looking after her until she's 16 and I just accepted that in my naivety at the time that's what it must have been that they were they were supporting her were you angry yes yes I was I mean I was grieving myself at the time whether my anger was part of

my grieving process it was like it wasn't a big thing. It was just sort of almost dropped in conversation. I don't think she appreciated that, first of all. Did you ask your mum why she kept the secret for so long? Did you ask her outright? Yes. And she just said, well, it wasn't my secret to tell. That was it. Did you ask her why she'd chosen to tell you now? She said it was a legal document and so she had to tell the truth. I think she felt about herself as being the victim and so we shouldn't be upset, we should be feeling sorry for her

and maybe that's a generation thing. I somehow think that these days women are a lot stronger and would do what they think is right rather than just blindly supporting their husband because they were told to keep it a secret. Did it change things with your mum when you found this out? It did initially, yes. The way that I felt about my mum,

because I couldn't unlearn what I'd just learned. It didn't ruin our relationship, but it definitely altered it. If she had said, oh, I'm sorry, I probably should have told you, but I felt I shouldn't, and can you forgive me? Then it might have been a bit different. So how long did your mum live for after your dad? Six years.

Before your mum died, it was never mentioned again? No, no. And no mention of it in her will or no nothing no has there been a difference you've got two brothers younger brothers has there been a difference in how you've all reacted to the disclosure of the secret I think I possibly felt more betrayed than they did. Why do you think that is? I just wonder if it's the mother-daughter relationship. Are there things that you would have liked to have asked her

that you didn't get a chance to ask? I would like to have talked to my dad about it. That is the sad thing. What triggered him having an affair in the first place and then if he was prepared to tell us about our half-sister? Are you curious about meeting her? It was too far down the line and we didn't know what we might unearth,

particularly when my mother was alive, and we don't know what she had been told. You know, we might potentially upset her a lot as well, because we don't know what she's been told about her parenthood. But there is a possibility that someone could come knocking on the door one day. If you had the option to never have been told this secret, what would you choose? Obviously, in some ways, it would have been easier if we hadn't found out. Certainly the way we did find out, if it had come to light now or ten years' time, that would have been even more devastating to have found out after both my parents had died

and there was nobody, we could learn nothing about it at all. I think I would choose to have been told as soon as we were adults. Do you still feel angry? No. No. And you can hear all the family secrets in this series so far on BBC Sounds, and next week we hear from Moira. Now, Cost of Living is a play which was first performed off-Broadway in 2016. It won the Pulitzer Prize,

and it's now at the Hampstead Theatre in North London. The play, by Martina Majok, has four characters. John is a wealthy Princeton graduate who has cerebral palsy. He hires Jess, also a Princeton graduate but from a poor immigrant family, to take care of his need for someone to help him shower and dress. It's one of three jobs she has to get by. Eddie, played by Adrian Lester, is a reformed alcoholic truck driver, temporarily out of work, whose wife Annie had a car accident after they had separated and has become quadriplegic as a result. Katie Sullivan, who played Annie in The States, takes on the role again. Here, Eddie offers to become her carer.

Hell no! But I know you, your body! Here, Eddie offers to become her carer. and see what happened? Oh, look, it's really hard to talk to you when all you've got is trumps on me. I'm not hiring you. Discrimination. Oh, fine. Cuff me. Katie, what drew you back to this play, having played her in America? I just think the incredible authenticity of these three-dimensional characters.

I think as a performer with a disability, you're not very often afforded that sort of ability to play someone who's not necessarily so inspiring or such a nice person. And to some extent, there truly are just people with faults and flaws. And Martina has written an incredible play that doesn't lean towards the sentimentality of characters that are usually, when they're written with disabilities, kind of lean that direction. Now, of course, Jack Hunter, who plays John, and then you and Sarnie both have disabilities. Jack has cerebral palsy. You had both your lower legs amputated as a child. How important is it to you

that actors with disabilities should be hired for these roles? I think it's vitally important. I think if you look at any marginalized group in the entertainment industry over time, yes, they're wonderful, exciting, difficult stories to tell. But at some point, yeah, the people, the members of those groups start to say, hey, I think we should be able to tell our own stories. Disability is very different from other types of marginalized groups, race and ethnicity and things like that, or sexual orientation, in that we are sort of a mixed bag ourselves. We're very diverse, just under our own umbrella. But I think it comes down to parity, because when individuals with disabilities are given the opportunity to tell their own stories,

eventually, we should get to a place where why can't that lawyer on that, you know, show be a man in a wheelchair? Why can't that doctor be a woman who wears a prosthetic leg? You wrote to Dwayne the Rock Johnson after his role in the film Skyscraper. What did you actually say in that letter? I really honestly, it was it was meant to start a dialogue just about that exact thing of there are performers with disabilities out there that that that we can and should be telling these stories. And while it is, it does seem to be at a tipping point where there are more and more of these characters being written. They're often being cast by able bodied actors. And, and often those actors, you know, get to go all the way to the Oscars and win, you know, for because it's so tough to play these roles.

And I think that we should be given the opportunity to to to share our own personal experience. What was his response? Because obviously he was playing a disabled. He never responded. And I really kind of bummed me out because I genuinely felt like he seems like such a good guy. And we didn't get a response. And it also was a time where I was like, okay, I'm clearly not going to replace him in this movie.

I am not. We're not the same type. We wouldn't be going out for the same role. So it felt like a safe place to start a conversation. And I think the lack of his response just goes to show you that this is still a really tough conversation, but it's a conversation that's really important and worth having. What would you say the play says to an audience about the relationship between the cared for and the carer?

I mean, you said it's not sentimental in any way, but quite the reverse. John actually is the least likable character in the play, the one with cerebral palsy. And Jess is carer almost the most needy. I think, well, first of all, one of the great things about Martina is that she hasn't written characters just to be likable.

And just because you have a disability does not mean you are a good person. So there is that element to it, which I think is fantastic. But, you know, the role and the relationship of a person who needs care and someone who's giving them that care, it's an incredible, there's an incredible amount of trust that needs to be built between two people. And then it because it's very intimate. And I think one of the interesting things that sort of my side of the play explores is that relationship happening between someone, you know, a married couple. And, and I think one of the things i love about annie so much my character is that she is very pragmatic about the fact that this you shouldn't be my you shouldn't be doing these things we have too much baggage we have too much between us but there's an amazing

scene where you're in the bath being cared for by eddie where obviously he has to wash you and then he plays the piano on your arm what does that seem mean to you um it is i think it's one of the reasons why i love this play so much it's my character goes on such a a huge arc in such a short amount of time from going absolutely not to giving in and in some ways because she really has no choice and and lets Eddie take care of her. And they begin to sort of they're estranged there. They're no they're separated. And it's a scene where they are. You can see the glimpses of maybe they could get back together. And that moment where he plays my arm like a piano is, I end up closing my eyes and just enjoying it.

And when the music stops, I open my eyes and I remember that there's 400 people in the room. It's just a really beautiful moment. It's very touching. Just one last question. How much do you miss the athletics and being a Paralympic record picker, which you were in 2012 in London? Being an athlete was, is actually the random part of my life. I've been an actress since I was a kid. And for a long time, even saying the word athlete felt really strange in my mouth. And I, and I really approached it like an actor.

You know, how would an athlete act? But I got to go all around the world and represent my country and meet incredible people. So, yeah, it's an amazing chapter in my life. I was talking to Katie Sullivan on the question of priests and bishops who've been abusing nuns. We had an email from Geraldine and she says how, why is anyone surprised? Had to send a furious tirade to the New York Times because their headline on this matter used the word EVEN BISHOPS, my capitals, had been recognised by Francis as abusers. As we can observe anywhere in the world, old or new, promoting and rewarding abusive men doesn't stop them.

My only despairing question is how long has the abuse by priests of whatever church's history being revealed over the last 30 years has turned me into a sometimes speechlessly angry atheist. From one of your many Irish devotees, Geraldine. Lots of response on the question of black female professors. Michelle Moore said, Good to hear Nicola Al-M Omumaza calling out academia to adopt racial justice training, examining structures and white privilege and not unconscious bias. Thank you for important research. Dr Rachel Marangazov said, we need more of them so BAME students can look to

them and think, she's done it it I can do this too and I don't have to be an old white man to do it. And then Iga said just a quick email to tell you that this is such an important topic and I'm really glad you've talked about it. I'm a white woman with a Polish background who's just finished her PhD at a UK university and I'm unsure whether to continue my academic career. I've struggled so much during my PhD and so have my colleagues, many of them either white women or women of colour, but the expectation is that you just persevere and keep your mouth shut. Sadly, senior women in academia rarely offer real support. I strongly believe the academic culture needs to change in general. Jocelyn Chandler tweeted, it's great to hear about BME recruitment in university.

It's not just academics. I work in administration and I don't feel supported or encouraged as a black woman in my area. And Dr. De Lopez said, listening now, good mentors and coaches are critical whilst all academics should work for change. And then on family secrets, Paulette said, as a member of that older generation, I can understand only too well the feeling of the need to keep secrets such as this one secret.

It was fear of the social and personal disgrace which would be heaped upon you and your family. Thankfully, things are very different now, but I was disappointed at the lack of understanding of the social norms of the time shown by the daughter who spoke today. Sue said, like your recent contributor, my parents told me my father had had a son at the end of the war with a German girl. I was about 58 at the time.

I felt no ill feeling about it. Rather, being an only child, I was consumed with excitement and determined to trace him, which I did two years later. Thankfully, Dad was still alive and my brother and he were reunited for the first time when Dad was 80 and the relationship grew lovingly until Dad's death 11 years later. I fully understood why they'd kept the secret from me. I'm only grateful I was eventually told and that both my brother and I have a family that we never would have been aware of. Thank you for all your responses to today's programme. Now, Jane will be here tomorrow morning at the usual time,

two minutes past ten, when she'll be discussing Southeastern Trains and the very tiny number of women drivers they have and the campaign they've launched to get 40% of applicants to be women by 2021. So there you are. If you've been dreaming of being a train driver, maybe there's a chance. That's Jane tomorrow morning, two minutes past ten from me for today.

Bye-bye. A child to fall. Hope for revolution. They're frightened. You can smell the fear. Do you now see why I must be firm with my people? Please, I am innocent. Lie down on the table. Lie down on the table now. The insurgent. My country suffers. He stands against the Shah, doesn't he? My country burns.

What does he stand for, though? That's a question for later. And a story that reverberates throughout the world today. I have one purpose only, to execute God's revenge on this earth. The BBC World Service presents Fall of the Shah, telling the story of the 1979 Iranian Revolution. Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, Available now on BBC Sounds. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.