Woman's Hour - Nursing, Children's Mental Health, Coronation Street, Anna Jones

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

Tomorrow marks the 200th anniversary of the birth of Florence Nightingale. The day's also become International Day of the Nurse. We speak to nurse and poet Molly Case and to Ruth May, Chief Nursing Officer in England.Childline has new figures about the number of under 11s wanting help because of the coronavirus lockdown. Jane talks to Laverne Antrobus a Child Psychologist at the Tavistock Clinic and to NSPCC campaigns manager, Helen Westerman.Coronation Street is dealing with the issue of coercive control between husband and wife in one of its storylines. We hear from Shelley King who plays Yasmeen who's the victim, as well as Lindsay Williams who's one of the script writers on Corrie. And she's been described as ‘the kind of cook who makes you want to eat vegetarian food even if you're not vegetarian’. Anna Jones shares some fresh ideas about lockdown lunches and the surprising things we can do with a can of tomato soup. Here's one of her recipes: Caper, herb and egg flatbreads / SERVES 2 AS A LIGHT MEAL200g thick Greek yoghurt 1 unwaxed lemon 2 avocados 2 organic eggs olive oil 2 medium corn or flour tortillas or wraps (about 12 cm) a few sprigs of soft herbs (I use dill and basil, but mint, tarragon, parsley and chives would all work too) 2 tablespoons small capers a few cornichons, roughly chopped 25g freshly grated Parmesan (I used a vegetarian one)First, in a bowl mix the yoghurt with the grated zest and juice of half the lemon, a pinch of sea salt and a good grind of black pepper. Cut the avocados into quarters and remove the stones, then cut each one down to the skin in thin slices. Squeeze over the juice from the remaining lemon half and set aside. Beat the eggs in a little cup with a pinch of salt. It’s best to cook the tortillas one by one. Heat a frying pan big enough to fit your tortilla over a medium heat. Add a tiny splash of olive oil, then add half the egg and let it set into a kind of pancake for 10-15 seconds. Working quickly, place a tortilla on top of the egg; you want the egg still to be a bit runny so that it will attach itself to the tortilla as it sets. When the egg has set, use a spatula to turn the whole thing over, sprinkle over half the herbs, half the capers and cornichons and half the cheese. Cook until the cheese has melted. Repeat this process for the second tortilla. To serve, fold the tortillas in half and top with the yoghurt and slices of the avocado. To make a meal of them, serve with a little lemon-dressed green salad.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Monday, the 11th of May 2020. It is a very good Monday morning to you. We're live from Broadcasting House. Hope your weekend was reasonable. Today on the programme, we'll go back to an old friend, the child psychologist Laverne Antrobus and talk about children's mental health during lockdown and perhaps adult mental health and mental well-being as well. We'll also have a spokesperson for Childline on the programme as well

because they say today they're getting more calls from very young children concerned about the coronavirus. Vegetarian cooking in the company of the brilliant food writer Anna Jones on Woman's Hour today. And if you're a fan of Corrie, there's been a really troubling storyline unfolding on the soap over the last year or so about coercive control. And the wonderful actor Shelley King, who plays Yasmeen, will talk to us live on Woman's Hour on today's show too. Tomorrow is the International Day of the Nurse. As you might well know, it's also the 200th anniversary of the birth of Florence Nightingale. That's something that we're

going to mark on this programme today in the company of Molly Case, who is a nurse currently on maternity leave. She's written a poem to mark tomorrow's special day. It's called Hold Your Pen Torches High, and you can hear that in its entirety very soon. Also with us is Ruth May, Chief Nursing Officer for England. And Ruth, you've been behind the podium at the government daily briefings a few times now, haven't you? Good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. And yes, I have. And thank you for allowing us to celebrate Nursing and Midwifery on tomorrow,

which is on International Day of the nurse and midwife. Well, it's of course particular significance this year for a multitude of very obvious reasons. Can we talk first of all about the new government message, stay alert, control the virus, save lives. Everybody who heard the news bulletin at 10 o'clock and Laura Kunzberg speaking about it will know that the reaction to yesterday's message, to put it mildly, has been somewhat mixed.

So tell us what you want us to take from this new government messaging. So firstly, I'd like to say thank you to all of those people that have supported us from across the whole of the United Kingdom because staying at home has saved lives and it has allowed us in the NHS to make sure we've had enough critical care capacity to care for the patients that we've seen. Today, yesterday evening I watched TV in my lounge the same as many people did as well trying to understand what the messages are saying to us. For me, I got the message clearly that I needed to continue where possible to work from home, which this is what I'm doing and many people are right now. I also got the message too that at some point in the future, my daughter will be able to go back to school, but not quite sure as to when. So my message to the public is thank you for what you're doing.

Please stay home where you can and keep safe. Right. I must admit now, I'm slightly perplexed as to your involvement in the messaging then. Were you not consulted about the message given out last night? I'm not. I wasn't. No, of course I wasn't. But there were people like our chief medical officer, I'm sure Sage were involved in that. What I am clearly is wanting to make sure is that we celebrate what we're doing for nursing but also thank the public for what they're doing to make sure they follow the government's advice. Okay, I mean I think a lot of people perhaps will

be slightly concerned now that here you are, you're a high profile expert woman. And yet again, we're hearing that you were not directly involved in the way that message was put together last night. Is that something we ought to be worried about? Or you're saying you wouldn't have expected to be involved? I wasn't expecting to be involved in last night's messaging. No, it's clearly a political decision for them to make on the government's scientific advisors.

My involvement right now is to ensure that we celebrate the messages for nurses and thank nurses and midwives what they're doing and also to thank the public for what they're doing right now where they're staying at home

and they've saved lives. Yeah, the Prime Minister did say last night that the measures those of us who've done our absolute utmost to stick to the measures have stopped us from being engulfed in what could have been a catastrophe he said and that is certainly true because the figure he pointed to last night was half a million deaths that at one time were projected but Ruth we can't lose sight of the fact that we have the highest number of deaths in Europe. All I do know is that just where Florence Nightingale, 200 years ago, was born and indeed went on to be an amazing nurse leader, we have seen and we've

had Nightingale hospitals built, ready to take the capacity that we thought we might have needed. And I'm relieved to say that we didn't need to see those beds being used in the same, in the thoughts we could have done, purely because we weren't engulfed, as the Prime Minister said yesterday. But we have, yes. I've seen more people of my profession die than I ever wanted to see. I know people that have died. I've gone to a family funeral as well. You know, these are tough, tough times. And these, you know, this is families across the whole of England and indeed United Kingdom.

Well, no, I am sure one person that has died from COVID-19. Sad, traumatic times. Of course, and I don't doubt for one minute that you are as personally involved as many other people listening. But the fact that so many nursing staff and indeed care workers have lost their lives. Did you ever expect the suffering to be on this scale, honestly? I don't think anybody thought that the suffering would be like this. And, you know, we've lost nurses, we've lost midwives, we've lost healthcare assistants, and we've lost doctors,

we've lost all of our professions, and none of this is what we would have wanted to see in the year, the nurse and midwife. We wanted this to be a massive celebration. But instead, we're very grateful to the public for showing their support of our profession. Seeing those rainbows as you walk along the street, seeing those people clap their hands in the Thursday evening. I'm very grateful for the public showing their support for our profession. And are you confident now that the people you're responsible for are properly protected, that all the right PPE is available and that no more lives are going to be lost unnecessarily as we fight, as your people continue so bravely to fight the pandemic? As you say, they are bravely going to work day in, day out, wherever that work may be,

whether it's a community or a mental health or into the hospital. PPE is vital, vital, critical for nurses, midwives, care workers to have sufficient PPE. The Department of Health and Social Care are responsible for ensuring that is happening. And I'm really pleased over the weekend that we are now seeing that gowns are more easily accessible and I'm sure now that that won't be the issue in the future. I'm grateful for our colleagues in the Department of Health for procuring this now and I'm severely hoping that sincerely hoping that we don't see the challenges that we have had on PPE going forward. Thank you very much for that, Ruth. Stay with us if you can. Molly Case, I know you are a cardiac

nurse, actually, aren't you, by profession? Yeah, good morning. Good morning. You're on maternity leave now. It must be a very strange time for you not to be involved. Absolutely. It's a terribly strange time. I have the most beautiful baby girl that I couldn't love more. And yet when I see and speak to my colleagues as I am every other day, I feel a terrible sense of guilt, actually, that I'm not on the know, a role that I've always wanted to do and bringing up my little six-month-old girl. But I hope, of course, it's only a small offering to write a poem, of course it is, but I like to think that perhaps somewhere in it nurses and midwives might find just a little boost or recognition. And of course we need more than poetry and clapping at the doors. We need far more than that. But I hope that they will feel seen and they'll feel recognised

in the words that we're going to play. Well, I'm going to play the poem now and we'll come back to you both, actually, when we've heard it. But thank you very much. Thank you. Here it is. It's called Hold Your Pen Torches High. The earth is nursed on her front. First light brings end to a dreamless night.

The earth lies face down, infusion pump sounds, busy gloves and gowns surround her bed. Outside the sun rises like a crown, a halo that gleams around her head. Night shift rounds are coming to an end. Hot coffee and tea, the earth's leaves return to green now that there is oxygen supplying her head. Night shift rounds are coming to an end. Hot coffee and tea. The earth's leaves return to green now that there is oxygen supplying her trees. The nurse finishes, takes off her PPE, looks in the mirror. Her name badge reads, hello, my name is Florence. She thinks, I am glitter and

dust and light in the dark. I am peep and peak and burnt out stars. I am thousands of pen torches lighting a well-trodden path and today is new. It is the 12th of May and Florence Nightingale was born 200 years ago today. The earth wakes at dawn. She sits up, stretches and yawns. Today is the 12th of May, her first baby's due date. The earth waits, holds her egg-warm roundness in the curtly dark. She has found this last bit hard. Midwife smiles that are hidden behind masks, but now she calls her midwife, who lives across the street. She comes running with cambium hands and heartwood feet. The earth has tending to her the very tallest tree, cut with knowledge and skill and kindness beneath. Her baby is coming. streaks of red and

gold, flashes of hot and cold, lavender, chamomile and marigold. The earth's breath is controlled and her baby is born, three souls forever notched on bark where a new growth ring forms. The earth has grown older, she feels this in her bones when the weather grows colder. Her chest is a bird's nest of brittle sticks no longer so easily fixed. The earth worries about her lungs since she is to stay at home, frightened now she'll spend each day alone. Her phone rings, a specialist nurse who teaches her with one simple click, a flipped screen and suddenly less lonely in all of this. It is a video call across her deserts and forests and oceanic ridge, a tectonic shift children's hope-filled drawings on the smooth banks of her snowdrifts, a voice she had missed and from her living room she is no longer adrift nor alone,

moored to a nurse that picked up the phone. We look to what came before, at Florence's lamplight quivering against half-open doors, and to Cronk and Cavell, Saunders, Seacole and more. We look now to these nurses and midwives who cared for the earth, who look after others and didn't put themselves first. Hold your pen torches high, to car park cries and angry tweets asking why. To those that rejoined and those on standby. To the earth's clearer waters and cloudless skies. To the people that stayed at home with the days drifting by. To the nurses and midwives and all those who lost their lives.

To all of them we know that didn't have to die. Hold your pen torches high. Here's to healthy days and hopeful nights. Thank you, NHS, the one and only, the very best. That is the poem by Molly Case. I know you wrote one quite some years ago when you were only 24. That was in the wake of the Francis Report and the Mid Staffordshire scandal. I don't think that's the wrong word. Different times, very different challenge. And I love the poem and the fact that you go from the lady with the lamp to the pen torch of the 21st century. Thank you. I think in some ways, as we know, poets and writers have a duty in society to kind of document what's going around us and try and make sense of the world

and offer a new perspective on obviously this kind of unprecedented times. And I hope that it goes some way to just my colleagues are everything to me. They're so special and I'm so sorry that I'm not with them. And a poem isn't the same as a 12-hour shift looking after an intubated patient on intensive care, but it's what I can do at the moment and I hope that they find some comfort in it and know how much we're supporting them. As you go about your business and particularly with a small baby I guess that the it's all important isn't it to get out and perhaps go to the park with the pram are you do you get angry

Molly when you see people behaving in a way that you don't think is helpful right now? I think there's been some really good things online about being non-judgmental, about nobody can quite understand what each individual person is going through. But yes, in the sense when you see some of the V-Day parties and things like that absolutely and it's more it's less my little baby actually it's more my my father who's 82 years old because

obviously i've worked in intensive care for a while and it's those types of people that you see who don't necessarily get off a ventilator very easily they really don't have as many chances as young healthy people like myself so it's it's actually more I think about my my dad um at 82 who still has plenty of living to do and if we could simply follow the advice certainly the advice of stay at home that for me I can speak non-politically because I'm not affiliated stay alert is confusing stay at home is clear um and I would like people to stay at home for you know all of the to keep people safe. Thank you very much, thank you for coming on the programme

and thank you for your work as well and I hope you and the young baby will continue to flourish. We should have said congratulations to you as well, it's wonderful to have a little girl so all the very best to you both. Ruth, just very briefly, I don't think Molly is alone there in just not getting the stay alert thing.

I'm sorry to return to it, but really and truly, does that slogan do the job? I think it's going to take us a while to understand what it really means as a member of the public. That's exactly what's wrong with it. We haven't got the time to work out what it means. We need to know immediately what it means we need to know immediately what it means i guess what i'm saying to you is that for me i'm grateful for people staying at home and staying alert means that we do need to stay alert to making sure that we keep ourselves and our families safe um i also want to add my congratulations to molly and very um pleased pleased and thankful for the poem that she's written over this last couple of weeks.

And so thank you to her too. We certainly echo that. And Ruth, thank you very much for coming on. Chief Nursing Officer for England. And it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Of course, we offer enormous thanks to those people working as nurses

and in the care service right now. You are all absolutely brilliant and we will be forever in your debt. Now, Childline say they're speaking to an increasing number of very young children about coronavirus. And more than half of the under 11s who've contacted the service were concerned about their mental health. Helen Westerman is from the NSPCC which effectively you run Childline don't you Helen these days good morning to you. Yes good morning hi. And also with us Laverne Antrobus who's a child psychologist at the Tavistock Clinic in London and a regular on Women's Hour. Laverne good morning to you. Good morning. Helen first of all who is contacting you and and what

are they saying exactly? So over the past three months there's been a steady increase in the number of young people and children coming to Childline who are worried about the effects of coronavirus. We're hearing from young people under the age of 11 as you said in your introduction and more than half of those under 11 year olds are contacting us concerned about the effect that the coronavirus is having on their well-being and mental health. And that might be things like feeling anxious, feeling stressed, having panic attacks and depression. We're hearing from children for the first time. And we're also hearing from children that regularly contact Childline,

who may be experiencing all the usual forms of abuse that they're having to live with. Yes, I mean, that's a horrifying phrase, the usual forms of abuse they're having to live with. And of course, at the moment, because schools are not open, I guess that children, in some cases, unfortunately, are more vulnerable than ever before. Yes, I mean, children are not in school, they're not seeing services like they may be in touch with regularly, so the eyes and ears of the

nation are not there for children and as such children are particularly vulnerable. We know that families are struggling, there are financial pressures on families. As adults we feel stressed and anxious so it's no wonder that children are also feeling those things and also don't have necessarily a place to go where they might usually go in school or to their CAM service or to their counselling service. And that's why they're turning to Childline. Can we talk numbers? How many numbers in terms of sheer number of calls and contacts online? Can you give us an idea of just the sheer quantity of need here? Yeah, so from the end of January to the middle of April, we delivered 2,700 counselling sessions to children and young people concerned about coronavirus. And forgive me,

that's a counselling session, that's not just one child contacting with a question or a worry? No, then that will be some sort of interaction between ourselves at Childline and that child or young person, yes. And what other sorts of questions children are asking specifically about coronavirus? They're telling us that they're struggling to cope, that they're feeling lonely, that they are worried about their parents. And for some kids, they're not wanting to share their concerns with their parents because they see their parents as struggling. You know, maybe the 24-7 nature of the news and social media provides increased pressure on children, but also

the adults. And so children are coming to us asking questions about the virus, worried about the impact that it has on their family and their older relatives, and concerned about missing some of the life events like, you know, finishing doing your GCSEs or finishing primary school, doing that end of term play. Lots of things. We're also hearing from children who are, you know, talking around self-harm and indeed suicide. Yes. OK. It's pretty bleak when you put it like that. Of course it is. Laverne, you're there as a child psychologist. Is the situation creating new problems or exacerbating current problems? I think it's a bit of both actually. I think that what we have a sort of general population of children who are expressing anxious thoughts, wondering about, you know, feeling low

in their mood and in some ways we're able to reassure those children that these are sort of quite expected and ordinary responses to this extraordinary pandemic that we're in at the moment. So, you know, I feel there's a way in which we're able to talk to some children about, you know, recognising their feelings and reassuring them that, you know, they're not falling into another category of young people. I think outside of that there's another group of young people who've got pre-existing conditions who are in the system with us who are very anxious and their anxiety has been elevated because of the virus and so we are paying equal and additional attention to those young people because we do not want them to feel sort of relapsed in their treatment or not feel able to cope. I know that you obviously can't break patient confidentiality but you are able to carry on treating patients and talking to them are you

and how are you doing it? Very much so I mean we are continuing to do our work and all of our patients are being offered telephone consultations or video call and it's been a very interesting Mae ein holl cleifion yn cael eu cynnig ar gyfer cymorth telephon neu fideo. Mae wedi bod yn amser ddiddorol. Mae llawer o blant wedi dewis ar gyfer cymorth telephon. Mae wedi bod yn ffordd da o gael cyfrif i gael eu cymryd i mewn gyda nhw. Mae'n ddiddorol bod yna'r rhain o'r rhaid i'w ddod o hyd. Mae'r telephon yn dod yn lle iawn i blant a phobl ifanc siarad am yr hyn sydd ar eu meddwl. you know, Childline are finding this in their remit as well, that actually the telephone is turning into a very good place for children and young people to talk about what's on their mind.

And I think particularly under-11s, you know, they don't have the sorts of connections I think some of our older adolescents have, you know, who might be on social media with each other and doing a bit of their reassurance in that way. I think under-11s find themselves in a particular set of circumstances, you know, in this sort of hotbed, almost nesting with their parents at home and experiencing parental anxiety, as well as trying to work out where they are in all of this. Well, for anybody who is a parent right now, it's probably one of the first times in our parental experience where we've had to say to our offspring, I'm really sorry.

I wasn't expecting this either. I don't have any wisdom to impart, I don't know, is the answer to almost all the questions I'm asked by my own offspring. And that can be tough, it really can be tough, and I don't know where to go either with this. I think that's absolutely right. I think that, you know, what I'm saying to parents is, you know, be honest, don't try and create answers where there aren't any, which is an unusual position to be in as a parent. But actually, we're all having to follow the guidance, stick with the bits of the certainty around that guidance that we totally understand. And where we don't quite understand it, we have to say to our children, you know, we have to wait for some

clarification, I think, particularly in the area of going back to school. You know, the amount of parents who I think are probably being asked by their children, when am I going back to school? And actually, I think realistically, all you can say is, I don't know. And that is tough. Helen, does that come up a lot, children who are missing school, or perhaps in some cases, children who are glad not to be at school? I think children, you know, missing school, they're missing that routine, they're're missing their friendships they're missing that place of safety for some of the children that contact child lines so yeah it's it's really tough and those questions do do come up often. And is it okay to say to your child look I'm really sorry this is frightening we're all a

bit scared I don't know the answer to your perfectly good question? I think that's absolutely fine I think it's important just to have perfectly good question. I think that's absolutely fine. I think it's important just to have that dialogue to keep the conversation going and to encourage our children and young people to talk about their feelings and also ask them what they know about the situation. What do they know about the virus? And just be calm and honest and informed about the facts as we can be. And we've got some great advice on the Childline website for children

that they can go to a trusted place and get information. as we can be and we've got some great advice on the the child line website for children that that they can you know go a trusted place and and get information i was going to say i took a look at it earlier there's a lot going on there and it isn't all we shouldn't say it's not all entirely negative it's a place where you can you can learn stuff and and picks up pick up bits of useful information oh absolutely so we you know we signpost children to perhaps use our Calm Zone where they can learn some breathing techniques. They can use our message boards, which are all moderated so they can hear about other people's situations and comment or not comment. They can just read them and hopefully find some support and information from those. What about, Laverne, your advice for parents who are really battling with the home education and wondering how and whether they should structure their child's day

or whether, in actual fact, a little bit of or even a great deal of screen time wouldn't be the worst thing in the world? I think that's changing. I think that picture has really changed over the last few weeks as we realise that we're really in this phase for a considerable amount of time yet. I think that routine is still important. Mae'r ffigwr hwn wedi newid dros y diweddion diwethaf, wrth i ni ddysgu ein bod yn y ffas hwn ar gyfer amser cymaint o bryd. Rwy'n credu bod y rytuwn yn bwysig, ac mae hynny'n bwysig i ddechrau y dydd. Ond rwy'n clywed gan bobl mab, bod nhw wedi gwneud ychydig o'u gwaith,

gyda phobl, am gyfnod o amser yn y bore, ond yn y gwaith, mae ganddyn nhw ganddyn nhw amser yn y dydd. Mae'n rhoi llawer o stres i'r system, sy'n teimlo'n ddifrifol. they've really got quite a relaxed timetable at home because actually it's putting a lot of stress into the system which is already feeling quite overloaded and family time or time alone you know not putting too much pressure on feeling that we've got to get things right is actually what's working so if children are you know wanting to be in their bedrooms and have a bit of alone time I think that's absolutely fine but I would say coming together at some point during

the day just to have a bit of a check-in where everybody's at, I think is really key. Just out of interest, how much time in your bedroom is just too much time? If it stretches to 18 hours a day in the bedroom, is that something that ought to be questioned? Well, I think that there is going to be a sense of when you are checking how much time. But I'm saying, you know, you're popping your head around the door, you're making those invitations and ymwybodol o'r cyfnod pan fyddwch chi'n gweld cymaint o amser. Ond rwy'n dweud, rydych chi'n gwneud y cyflwyniadau a'r cyflwyniadau i ddod a chymryd y restr o'r teulu. Ond mae plant ar hyn o bryd yn credu ei bod angen ychydig o amser i geisio gweithio yn eu hunain, sut maen nhw'n teimlo am hyn, ac yna gallu dod a siarad â phant, athrawon neu pharwain am beth sydd ar eu meddwl. Felly rwy'n credu ei fod yn amser i about, you know, what's on their mind. So I think it is a time to just sort of relax and not feel

that we've got to keep things going because we are going to be here for a while. Yeah. Do you actually think total honesty, whatever that might consist of, would be better? So if a government spokesperson were to say at some point, you know what, I honestly don't think schools will be going back until September and we can't even be certain of that. Would that work for you? I think that would provide a level of clarity that we could then have that as our benchmark and then if anything happened before that, that would be a bonus because actually most children are asking me what I think about when they're going to go back to school and I'm having to say I really don't know and it's a very sort of strange way to be talking, to say you absolutely don't know something,

particularly when they're picking up these little bits of information from, you know, the news and radio and hearing that something else might be possible and not knowing why those decisions are being made. So I'm all for, well, why might we have this year group going back? You know, what's the rationale behind it? Because then I think children would really understand the thinking. Thank you so much for your time this morning. I know you're very busy. Thank you.

Laverne Antrobus, child psychologist at the Tavistock Clinic. And you also heard from Helen Westerman, who works for the NSPCC, which runs Childline. And there is, she's absolutely right, there is a great deal of good stuff on the Childline website. Interesting point from Liz on Twitter, who said, I emailed my daughter's school, asking them to phone and just touch base with her. She's year six. And I think she's battling to process the emotion of not going back to school or saying goodbye. But I got a reply saying that the senior leadership has decided not to phone families. Well, obviously, I can't speak for the school or why they've made that decision. But you

do feel for children in year six who will be wanting to go back. And as we found out yesterday, it looks like they might well be going back in England, certainly, from the 1st of June, possibly. I mean, I have to be a bit careful. We don't 100% know anything, as I think that previous conversation illustrated. Let's talk cookery delightfully with Anna Jones who is the author of a number of books. Your latest one is The Modern Cook's Year. That's right isn't it Anna? Good morning to you. Morning, morning. Thanks for having me. Yes the latest one is The Modern Cook's Year and I think we've all been doing a lot more cooking recently haven't we and we will be for the foreseeable it seems. I've been doing a lot more eating i can tell you that much um and it is bizarre my my diet which was relatively good um there's so many carbs

going down my esophageal piping it's just off the scale anyway um you are the sort of person who apparently can make vegetarian food appealing to even people who are not vegetarian um i am basically vegetarian because the household is vegetarian. And your books have been an absolute lifesaver. I'm blowing smoke, but I really do mean it. Are you a vegetarian? Have you always been one? I am vegetarian. I've been vegetarian for about 10 years, actually. When I started off as a chef, I used to eat meat. I actually, um you know used to have to cut up meat and do sort of basic butchery in the kitchens um but things changed about 10 years ago when I just

I just sort of things shifted I wanted to eat in a bit more of a conscious way in a way that sort of felt better for my body so yeah it's been 10 years now. You actually started with Jamie Oliver didn't you? I did yeah um I I worked with with him when he was doing the sort of school dinners project. And I worked with him sort of developing recipes, but also as a food stylist, the strangest job title of all time. So making the pictures in his books jump off the page. And I was lucky enough to travel all around the world with him on lots of his kind of more sort of socially minded programs over in Americaica and stuff like that yeah um we'll get on to the food styling don't worry i'm not gonna let that one go but um just a word about jamie oliver because um i don't know he has his knockers certainly i think perhaps there's a danger sometimes of us forgetting how much good stuff he

did i really think he's been an an enormous um character and and game changer actually in the food scene in this country. You know, the way we talk about feeding our children these days is largely, you know, in the public realm anyway, is largely thanks to Jamie. He shifted things massively in schools. And I think, you know, the relaxed way in which he cooks has changed the conversation around food and cooking in all of our homes. Yeah, I think that's a very good point. OK, food styling then. Well, you said yourself it was a slightly peculiar way to earn a living. Tell me a bit about what you actually did.

I mean, the practical stuff here, what you had to do to twiddle the food. Yeah, I think it's really the most ridiculous job title. The sort of food styling I did was very natural. It was, you know, I used to work on some adverts from time to time. So I used to try and get, you know, chocolate fondants to sort of ooze perfectly towards the camera, which was, you know,

all quite a ridiculous undertaking. But really it was just making food jump off the page or jump off the screen and look delicious. There are some food stylists who go down a completely different route and use sort of um scooped margarine instead of ice cream and paint their turkeys with um you know sort of boot polish and stuff like that but that wasn't my thing it's been ages since i painted a turkey with boot polish let's face it we're all looking for things, particularly yesterday afternoon. I was really scrabbling around looking for something to do. That could have been an option.

So after the food has been styled, is it basically inedible then? Oh, absolutely not. I count myself as a cook and a chef, really, and all the food that I have ever made has been edible. It's more stories I've heard about other food stylists who do lots of advertising stuff where food sits around for a long time. And I think that's when those tricks are used. Tell me then about your current way of life, because I know you've had to leave London where you were living in a part of the city, I think where all sorts of

different ingredients were widely available. Absolutely. yeah. I live in sort of deepest Hackney and yeah, lucky enough to have lots of corner shops, amazing veg suppliers, you know, Vietnamese shops, every Turkish shop, you can get everything within a 10 minute walk. And I'm actually isolating with my mum and dad outside of London in Surrey. And yeah, it's different here.

There's no little corner shops. There's just one big supermarket. So we've had to be a bit more resourceful with how we get hold of things. So it's sort of less lime leaves and lemongrass and a bit more kind of bread and cheese. But I'm happy about that. There is a recipe of yours on our website, which is, well, flatbreads, but that doesn't seem to do the recipe justice.

Yes, this is one of the things that I often make for quick lunches. I found lunch is one of the things, you know, that I'm not used to cooking for sort of five people, which is what I'm doing at the moment. So we've been making this a lot. It's an egg flatbread. So it's halfway between a kind of egg sandwich and a quesadilla, really. You basically scramble an egg in a pan pop a tortilla or flat bread on top flip it over um so it toasts on the other side and then you can fill it with anything you want my favorite is kind of capers avocado and some herbs um I'm obviously vegetarian so I would put all types of vegetables in there now asparagus salad leaves and peppers a grating of

cheese but it's just a really quick quite filling filling lunch that, you know, takes a couple of minutes. Yeah. OK. And that recipe is on the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. The recipe of yours I've used the most, I just want you to mention it, is the lentil bolognese with a tin of tomato soup. Yes. Well, it's genius. That was inspired by just sort of trying to cook something with all the tins in the cupboard and um I did sort of think oh god there's a tin of there's a tin of tomato soup going to work here but it actually really brings it all together and I think that's the kind of cooking at the moment that that everyone is relying on I've been trying to go to the shops you know very infrequently once every couple of weeks and so you know towards the

end of our our supplies i'm definitely relying on the store cupboard a lot more okay just remind me for that recipe all you need is the the celery the onion the carrots the garlic oil and then sling in your lentils sling in the soup uh cook for about an hour and that's it exactly exactly you've got you've got that one down i've had to have it down trust me um no that is genuinely a lifesaver um and it really is it's super super super tasty i should actually i don't know why i'm not just not doing your pr that would be where i could go i mean i mean i'd definitely be down for that would you okay well speak to me after the show um thank you anna all the very best.

Oh, thank you for having me. And Anna is going to make a film for the Woman's Hour Instagram, all about inspiration for easy lunches. And the one she offered today sounded really tasty. So that is on the Woman's Hour website right now. Thanks to her. Now, Corrie, it's had such a powerful coercive control storyline over the last year or so about a newly married middle age couple, Yasmeen and Jeff. Now, Jeff is one of those geezers who in public is very jovial, a little bit of a joker and pretty popular. But back home, he is undermining and belittling Yasmeen. And it came to a terrible head the other night when Yasmeen, confronted with a knife, grabbed an empty wine bottle and ended up putting Jeff in hospital. Shelley King plays Yasmeen and Lindsay Williams

is one of the scriptwriters on Coronation Street. Shelley, Lindsay, welcome to the programme. Good morning to you. Good morning. Oh, thank you both very much. Lovely to talk to you both. Yasmeen, sorry, do apologise. That's because you inhabit the character so well. I've done to be here. Oh, thank you both very much. Lovely to talk to you both. Yasmeen, sorry, do apologise. That's because you inhabit the character so well. I've done it straight off. This is really troubling. I have to say, I didn't enjoy this. What did you think when you found out

this was going to be the fate of your character? You mean Yasmeen's fate? Well, I mean, you know, as Lindsay will tell you, all the storylines, all our scriptwriters have based their storylines on the, some of the things that we have heard and the things that people have been exposed to make Yasmine's journey almost anodyne. Really? Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, Shelley, because it puts you in a position of responsibility as an actor. Yeah, yeah. That's why I'm so nervous

even to talk about it. Because I have such a responsibility to the people who have shared their experiences with me by direct message. People have come to me in the streets. People have talked to me that are acquaintances of mine,

that are people I've worked with, that have revealed their deepest thoughts to me. And I hold the responsibility of that in my heart. And that's what you see when I play Yasmeen. And it's a huge and daunting responsibility. Yeah, no, I can imagine. And Lindsay, what's so troubling about this and so brilliant about the way you've done it

is, of course, it's taken a long time. And you've been very careful to make Jeff a popular figure. He's a little bit of a joker, isn't he? Yes, yeah. Well, the advice we got very early on was it's all about what happens behind closed doors. So to everyone else, to, well, the advice we got very early on was it's all about what happens behind closed doors. So to everyone else, to his family, Jeff is the lovable rogue, this funny magician that everyone loves. But we got advice really that it's about what happens behind closed doors.

And he's very, very different when he's alone with Yasmeen. Yeah, and it's a little bit like the storyline that unfolded over so many months on The Archers. The listener in the case of The Archers, the viewer in the case of The Street, we knew but the other characters didn't and it really gets to you. Yes yeah I mean I think our viewers have been at times kind of shouting at the TV wondering why the other characters can't see what's going on but But I think that's what, in a way, what we wanted to show really was that actually, it's very subtle, these things, that emotional abuse goes on all the time. And there aren't necessarily always the biggest signs, but it's those small signs. And so whilst the viewers have been able to see it,

the characters haven't. And yeah, it's the smaller signs they needed to be looking out for. So what do you want the public, the viewers of Coronation Street to take away from what you've portrayed, Shelley? And I said, I was just listening to Lindsay and I really do think it's to make people aware that things going on behind closed doors sometimes need attention. Because the repeating stories I have heard is the way in which the perpetrators of this crime disguise themselves, be they male or female. They appear hail fellows, well met. And we all know when we hear arguments next door, we go, well, well, you know, that's, we can't really interfere. It's not our business. We don't know what happens between a man and a

woman. And until very recently, the police had that same problem because as you probably know, coercive abuse only became a criminal offense in late 2015, I think it was. So now, you know, we've been trying to tell people that they can ring the police, they can dial 55 so that police know where they are, even if they are unable to speak. And so I think our main drive has been to inform people that there is help out there and that they do not have to tolerate any sort of coercion and this sort of coercion in particular.

And I think all of us, you know, we've all become absorbed, embodied with this. You know, Jonathan Harvey, John McVeary, the writers, Lindsay, Amy Coombs, who came up with the idea. And in fact, I heard, I started thinking about it with Kate Oates some years ago, and she had worked on the coercive story in The Archers, of course. And I've been listening very closely to the people that you have had on Radio 4, Sally Challen and her son, and people like that. And in fact, the novel, Look What You Made Me Do, was my introduction into this behavioural, I don't know what you would call it, but it's a disease. Yes, I suppose it is a way of a horrible, manipulative way of operating.

And I suppose, Lindsay, what you really want to make certain is that this is now less likely to happen in the future. Although with lockdown, you really worry about what's going on. Talk about behind closed doors now. I mean, heaven knows. Yeah, well, Women's Aid, who we've been working with, are certainly reporting that they're getting more calls and more people visiting their website. And we just, yeah, we want people to know, and we hope we've put out there that there are websites. Women's Aid is available all the time to go on the website

and have live chats so that they know people who are now isolated in lockdown know that there is help out there. Lindsay, thank you so much. And great pleasure to talk to you, Lindsay, and indeed to you, Shelley, who's putting in a fantastic performance as Yasmeen in Coronation Street. Lindsay Williams, who is a scriptwriter for Coronation Street, and before that you heard from Shelley King,

who is playing Yasmeen in the soap opera Right Now. And I spoke to Shelley after the programme, and she really wanted me to make clear that Ian Bartholomew, who plays the truly vile Geoff, is actually a thoroughly nice bloke. And he's also done videos for Women's Aid and he's really putting his heart and soul into getting the message across here. But the poor bloke, as you might imagine,

is suffering slightly when he goes out in public. He gets a really hard time. So she wants to make that clear. Ian, who only plays Jeff, he isn't Jeff, is a thoroughly nice man. But it's so powerful make that clear. Ian, who only plays Jeff, he isn't Jeff, is a thoroughly nice man. But it's so powerful, that storyline. And I know many of us who listen to The Archers really couldn't bear the whole Rob and Helen stuff. Although it was tremendously effective radio, it has to be said.

Watching it in Coronation Street is, if anything, worse, I would say, actually. Anyway, brilliant acting. We know that much. Now, the interview today that got you going more than anything else, not surprisingly, was Ruth May, who is the Chief Nursing Officer for England. And not everybody agreed with the way I approached the interview either, I should say, in the interest of fairness. So here we go. Jennifer says, I'm a qualified nurse with over 40 years of experience. And your interview with Ruth May has left me open mouthed. No wonder nurses feel undervalued and demoralised when we are led by somebody who's towing the party line.

Judith says, what a waste of time that interview was. She hadn't got an original thought in her head. She was obviously being told to repeat certain phrases. Rachel, I didn't expect to be consulted, says Ruth May, the highest nursing voice in England. How can women ever hope to be treated equally if we don't expect to be consulted in deciding the next step, which will affect our nearest colleagues and friends who form the very heart of the NHS? Maggie says she should be hopping mad at the number of nurses and care

workers who've fallen ill and have lost their lives due to what I see as government incompetence around PPE and testing. Okay, so that's one side of the argument. Not everybody is in agreement. Joyce says my entire family and I and countless friends I've spoken to on the phone last night and this morning, found the Prime Minister's presentation yesterday clear, robust, direct, succinct and by no means confusing. What part of the stay alert slogan does Jane Garvey not understand? It was clear too that Ruth May, the Chief Nursing Officer for England, felt exactly the same as I do, and as many millions in the country no doubt also feel. It was disgraceful for Jane Garvey to try to bully her into agreeing with her own prejudices

and that she constantly cut short her interviewee as she was presenting clear, empathetic and intelligent comments that were a professional's view devoid of tribal politics. And there's another one along those lines. Well, there are others, but this is another one I'm going to read from. Joyce, who said, Jane has tried so hard this morning to get her interviewees to agree with her preformed opinion that the prime minister's presentation last night was confused and defective.

Well, I could go on, but I think that illustrates that, as ever, we have opinions on all sides of this particular argument. Some people thought Ruth May was towing the government's line and that wasn't good. Others thought I was hard on Ruth May. So there you go. We do honestly try to be fair. We should say that lots of people just enjoyed hearing Molly Case's poem. Ruth says, I'm a former nurse. I just listened to Molly's poem with tears in my eyes. Thank you. And from Nikki, what an amazing poem. I lost my dad to COVID-19. So many things expressed here with insight and with courage. Thank you, Molly. And here's another

one from Marion, who says, listened and cried a little bit, loved the line, no longer adrift, moored to a nurse that picked up the phone. Marion, you're absolutely right. I thought that was a hugely evocative part of Molly's poem. Thank you for that. And we need to make this clear from Emily after the conversation with Anna Jones, the food writer and food stylist. Emily says, just a reassurance for listeners, the majority of food stylists don't use anything inedible. They might use tweezers to get the herbs in just the right place, but generally speaking, there isn't a pot of boot polish in sight. Well, let's all heave a sigh of relief at that. And Anna Jones's recipe is on the Woman's Hour website right now, but in general, I would recommend her. She's certainly worth exploring if you have a vegetarian household

or you've got people in your household who are trying to eat more vegetarian food because she's got some really good ideas, particularly the ones that just involve stuff you can just get out of the cupboard. So she's brilliant. Thank you for listening. We're back tomorrow with the programme and the podcast. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.