Woman's Hour - Nusrat Ghani MP for Wealden and vice-chair of The 1922 committee

Episode Date: July 7, 2022

As Boris Johnson prepares to step down we hear from Nusrat Ghani the Conservative MP for Wealden and vice-chair of The 1922 committee that represents backbench conservative MPs. Dubbed "the men in grey suits", the members of the 1922 Committee wield a lot of power in the Conservative Party and runs the selection process for new leaders.Also joining Emma is Katie Perrior who worked as a political advisor at 10 Downing Street under Theresa May and previously for Boris Johnson and David Davis. She is now chair of INHouse Communications Charlotte Carew Pole the Director of Women2Win, an organisation which aims to increase the number of Conservative women in Parliament. Journalist Sonia Purnell and author of Just Boris: A Tale of Blond AmbitionPlus the latest from Westminster from BBC political Correspondent Ione WellsPresenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. What a day we are together for as I speak to you now. Boris Johnson has announced he's resigning as the leader of the Conservative Party. That's what the BBC understands, but not so far as the Prime Minister. The total number of resignations, I hope I've got this right, is 59. One sacking as well, Michael Gove last night. And one of the most recent of those resignations is the education secretary,

a woman who did well, if you like, but for only two days out of the initial resignations of the chancellor and the health secretary, Michelle Donnellan, who stepped into that role of education secretary, only accepting the job two days ago, must be the shortest-lived Education Secretary in the role. No-one is being made available from the government, as it is right now. So far, only one person, a woman, has officially thrown their hat into a would-be leaders' race, Suella Braverman, the Attorney General,

who do remember has not yet resigned herself. It's also very striking who's calling for him to go as Prime Minister, never mind now leader of the Conservative Party. That's, as we understand it, being confirmed. Also not necessarily resigning themselves. Here on Woman's Hour, I will keep you up to date with the very latest. But we will also examine Boris Johnson, the man, the psychology, the approach, the mindset that is keeping this man in the highest office in the land,

we are told, until autumn, even as his friends and foes urge him to go. The reason is you, the electorate. That is the mandate he is focusing on. If you listen carefully as what he didn't say and what he did say yesterday at the dispatch box in the House of Commons, he talked about his mandate, the people of the UK zooming away from Westminster as the resignations mounted yesterday and have continued to do so today. And that is who I'd like to hear from this morning, as always, you. I asked you yesterday about the idea of honourable women resigning. There've been two female leaders of this country, both Conservative, Margaret Thatcher and then Theresa May, both of whom did resign. It was

said yesterday by a backbench MP, honourable women leaders have resigned. That individual, Roger Gale, hoped that the Prime Minister would do the same. It has not yet happened as the Prime Minister, although we are to hear from the man himself, we understand, coming up to lunchtime today. But I asked you yesterday, should he, could he, would he resign as the Prime Minister? What do you make of Boris Johnson right now as a man, as a leader, as a person who you, some of you, asked to make the key decisions in this country. And when I asked you that question at first, it was overwhelming. He should go. Those were the messages I was flooded with. And yet it changed

during the course of yesterday's Woman's Hour. Do get in touch today with what has happened since. You may not have changed your mind. You may still believe he should be there. You may still think he has that mandate from you, the people, but just not his party. Tell me what you think. You text me here at Women's Hour, 84844. Text will be charged your standard message rate. We're on social media at BBC Women's Hour

or email me through our website. But throughout the course of today's Women's Hour, we will hear from key women. We will hear from those who know Boris Johnson, the man, or certainly have observed him up close. We will keep you up to date with the latest happenings. And we will also take the temperature of the nation with you helping me, I hope, do that.

So do please take the opportunity to get in touch. Now, the Prime Minister, as I said, it's been confirmed, has stepped down as leader of the Conservative Party. Just then, the palace has declined to say, the BBC understands, if the Queen has spoken to the Prime Minister this morning. He has not resigned as Prime Minister. I just want to make that very, very clear.

Ministers have continued to resign this morning. I think it's very interesting that the very new Chancellor of the Exchequer, Nadeem Zahawi, appointed by Boris Johnson only almost hours ago, should we just put it like that, calling for his resignation but not yet resigning himself. All of that, keep in your mind. Let's first speak

to Nusrat Ghani, Conservative MP for Wilden and Vice-Chair of the very important 1922 Committee that represents backbench Conservative MPs. They're often dubbed the men in grey suits. The members of the 1922 committee wield a lot of power in the Conservative Party. The committee runs a selection process for new leaders. And if MPs want to get rid of their current leader, and my goodness, this committee has been busy in recent years, then it is the 1922 that collects the votes to do so.

And only a few weeks ago, they were in charge of that vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister that he won. He absolutely, completely and utterly won. And now we are where we are this morning. Nazraq Ghani is the vice-chair of that committee. Good morning. this morning. Nazraq Ghani is the vice chair of that committee. Good morning. Good morning. It's very different than a few weeks ago, but let's start with where we are this morning.

Can I ask for your reaction with the very latest on this? Now that we know your prime minister is resigning as leader of your party. I'm pleased. It's the right thing to do. It was becoming completely undignified. And the prime minister couldn't continue without the support, not only of MPs, but without the support of ministers and even cabinet ministers you he was unable then to form an administration that had to focus all of its attention on supporting our constituents not being focused on the boris johnson psychodrama so i am pleased that he has resigned when do you expect him to go as prime minister if you expect him to go well i um i suspect there'll be a statement around midday or one o'clock um i'm reading um that the intention is that he wishes to stay but that timetable has to be agreed with

the executive of the 1922 um and i'm hearing from colleagues that they are uncomfortable with him continuing to stay as caretaker. We have a deputy prime minister. That's why we have a deputy prime minister. And I think it's important that we have somebody in place that has the confidence of colleagues to put in place an administration that can function. So you would prefer Dominic Raab? In case people are, in case people are wondering who our Deputy Prime Minister is, that's who it is? That's why we have a Deputy Prime Minister. I'm hearing from colleagues and I agree with them that we cannot have a resignation

and for Boris Johnson to continue for three or four months if that's what he is planning to do. That will have to be negotiated. That timetable will have to be negotiated with the 1922 executive. Of which you are vice chair. Correct. Let's come to just that in a moment. But it has been mooted and it started to be mooted last night, that a caretaker prime minister, because at the end of the day, taking a step back from Westminster,

our listeners this morning will be thinking, I can't get my operation on the NHS right now. I'm struggling to buy butter. The cost of living is a real issue. There are not enough ministers in certain departments right now for them to even call a meeting, never mind make decisions. There is a call, there was a call last night by some for Theresa May to come back as a caretaker Prime Minister. She knows what she's doing. She's done the job. You know, people may not have think she did it very well, including your own colleagues.

Would you support that over Dominic Raab? Well, we have a deputy prime minister and that is Dominic Raab. And I think that the quickest thing to do is to have the caretaker, Dominic Raab, in place and to have an administration in place, just functioning, delivering for the people, as you've just mentioned. We've got to move quite quickly, I believe. And that's what the party wants. And I think the executive needs to put a plan in place very swiftly to ensure that it has a competition to elect a new leader.

But prior to that, we can put an administration in place to start functioning as soon as the prime minister makes a statement this afternoon. Why should anybody trust Dominic Raab to be a decent caretaker? Yes, he's got the role, but he hasn't resigned. He hasn't made any comments on this. He seems like he's still loyal to the Prime Minister, although it's incredibly hard to get anybody to talk to us this morning from Number 10. Yeah, look, I understand your concerns, considering what's been taking place at Downing Street. And this is one of the problems that we're going to have to try and to deal with, to rebuild trust with the public and to rebuild the confidence in the Conservative Party. But we have got really stellar people who can continue to function as ministers, but they will need a leader that they have confidence in. So when Boris Johnson or the Prime Minister says that he is resigning and he will take his time or take a few months to leave, I think it's better he

decides just to go. Let's come to your role as Vice Chair of the 1922 Committee, if I may. We've been told, but you tell me, that the way that we understand it's been communicated that Boris Johnson will step down as the leader of the Conservative Party, not as Prime Minister yet, that that was communicated to the chairman of the committee of which you sit, Graham Brady, Sir Graham Brady. Is that the case? Yes, so colleagues communicate with us, but fundamentally can write letters of no confidence or emails of no confidence to the chairman. Colleagues have been overwhelmingly sharing their concerns that Boris Johnson could no longer continue as leader of the party because issues around honesty, integrity and trust

and respect had been trashed for them. The chair of the 1922, Sir Graham Brady, met with the Prime Minister yesterday and again this morning, making it clear that the confidence of colleagues, backbenchers, ministers, and no doubt even some in the Cabinet, had gone. It was over. It was time to go. Normally that is a conversation that takes place before the next step, which would have been for our re-election as vice-chairs, chairs and officers in 1922,

where we would have had a discussion about holding another vote of no confidence. And considering what colleagues were saying, it was very unlikely that he would have won that. There are some, again, members of the public, nothing to do with Westminster, listening to this, Nusrat, thinking, I just can't even support or get behind or respect these ministers, aides and MPs now who are saying that he should go through to resignations. They had an opportunity only weeks ago to have that vote of no confidence.

And they bottled it for either their careers. How can that much, or for other reasons, how can that much have changed in those intervening weeks for this strength of feeling to suddenly come? Look, I think colleagues are going to have to reflect on when they chose to publicly say that they no longer have confidence in the PM. You know that the last vote to no confidence,

we did have a substantial number of colleagues vote no confidence in Boris Johnson's leader of the party. But I suspect for many, the Chris Pinscher situation was just, you know know the final straw having having the prime minister continue to hold a position that was untenable making colleagues go on air whilst not briefing them with the accurate information we got to a point where it was just turning into not only a farce but everything was focused on just protecting and promoting Boris Johnson. It was no longer about protecting the party or in protecting the country in focusing all of our

attention on delivering policies that are important. Do you understand why some people will be thinking I've got zero respect or sympathy for these MPs who did not take the opportunity a few weeks ago and suddenly seem to have found huge numbers of concerns and morals, perhaps, that they didn't seem to have a grasp of a few weeks ago. We've got a lot of work to do building back trust. We really have. And I don't think this is why the Prime Minister resigning today hasn't come soon enough. Prime Minister resigning as the leader of the Conservative Party, not as Prime Minister, just in case you are joining us. Sir Hayley tweeted us yesterday, or texted in, I should say, one of our listeners. May I just read this to you, Nusrat? And I'm

grateful for your insights this morning, both as a Conservative MP, but also, as I say, Vice Chair of this influential 1922 Backbench Committee. She wrote to us to say, just imagine if Boris Johnson was a woman and was incompetent, lied constantly, was a lousy leader and manager, couldn't organise himself, never mind about his team. She would have been got rid of ages ago. But because Boris Johnson is a man,

he is still in the job. I despair. What do you say to Sahalia? I agree with her. I agree with her. And I think there is something about politics where women are treated and they are just, we have to reach a very different marker. And unfortunately, men don't.

And we seem to have a situation where men can progress with very little skill and merit. That's about progression, but I suppose this is, and your view of it, it's very interesting you say that, but it's also, she's speaking to what's keeping him in there now as well, isn't she? I, you know, this is the character of Boris Johnson, I'm afraid. He will always put himself first. And so it's the right thing to do that he has resigned because we need a leader in place that will put the country first. So you think it would be different if he was a woman?

He would be gone by now? I don't think people would have been so forgiving or given so many opportunities if it was a woman that had made the same mistakes. What can we take from that, do you think? or given so many opportunities if it was a woman that had made the same mistakes. What can we take from that, do you think, just as if there are learnings to be taken at this stage? You just have to be incredibly careful who we put our confidence and faith in. But also we need to stop treating women differently in leadership positions that we do to men.

And a word on your own experience, if I may, people may remember, you were a junior transport minister until early February 2020. You, of course, had experience of working alongside Boris Johnson and his team. That came to an end. You alleged in January this year that a whip, we've obviously been hearing a lot about the whip's office with regards to Chris Pincher, you said that a whip said your Muslim obviously been hearing a lot about the whip's office with regards to Chris Pincher, you said that a whip said your Muslimness was a factor in you being sacked as a minister. And an investigation was launched into those allegations. I wonder, first of all, has that investigation concluded? Have you had any answers? Well, Lord Guyte resigned before handing me the report.

The Prime Minister, I read yesterday, when he was in front of the Liaison Committee, said that he'd had a conversation with Lord Guyte about the report. I'm asking for that report to be published. But my experience of Downing Street and the Prime Minister is not dissimilar to other people's experience where there is a huge issue

with honesty and integrity. So working with him, you would describe in what way, having been a junior minister, and we've seen a lot of those junior ministers walk out. I didn't work with him. I was a junior minister over in the Department for Transport.

But, you know, when I raised my complaint with the prime minister, he chose not to take it seriously until it was made public. And then he instigated an inquiry by Lord Guyte and the prime minister's authority over that inquiry. And I hope that he will now have the time and the space to give it the seriousness it deserves. Well, perhaps we can talk again, Nusrat, about that on a different day, because it's a very important issue to get to the bottom of. And I would very much welcome you back to Womansara, should you be available. Can I just ask you two more things based on our listeners getting in touch this morning?

If you're just joining us, we'll keep you up to date. Boris Johnson has resigned. We know as or is resigning, I should say, as the leader of the Conservative Party. We haven't heard from him yet. On a morning of continued resignations, it stands at 59 with also one sacking, Michael Gove. But the prime minister is set to carry on, he hopes, he says, we understand, as Prime Minister until the autumn. I'm talking to the Vice Chair of the 1922 Committee. There's a message here for you from one of our listeners, Kirsty, who says, please can the 1922 Committee meet today and get this resolved? We need definitive action. There's been too much indecision. What do you say to her? I need to jump off this call because we're trying to organise a meeting. Well, that's the perfect answer. That's a very accurate answer as well. Nazra, I'll let you do that. Nazra, thank you very much for talking to me. Thank you. We're keeping these messages coming in. Let me give you a flavour of them. A message here,

I never supported Boris Johnson as Prime Minister, but yesterday I watched a recording of the Queen's Jubilee service and he read the Bible lesson beautifully with great feeling and clarity. I would like to remember him for that, says Anne, who's decided to do a tribute. Another, I'm disgusted by the Conservative Party and their backstabbing, duplicitous behaviour by the way in which our Prime Minister has been forced to resign. I voted for Boris Johnson and I would again. There is nobody with any gumption to take his place. Well, that's a very big question here. Who's going to take his place? Only one person has officially put their hat in the ring.

It is a woman. It's Suella Braverman, the Attorney General, who has not resigned. It's a very curious situation. He is absolutely the very best Prime Minister since Margaret Thatcher, says Jill. That will be music to Number 10's ears if they're listening this morning. They're certainly not providing any guests for us. Another message here, only last week in Parliament, Dominic Raab refused to enshrine safeguards on women's rights to abortion law in law. He also is dismantling the Human Rights Act right now, which includes protections on equal pay. As a deputy prime minister, he could do a lot of damage. This is the idea of Raab stepping up.

I don't think the wider dismantling of women's rights happening in the US can't happen here. Write to your MP now, reads this message from Jen, and insist that whoever is the new prime minister, that we protect the Human Rights Act, that Dominic Raab is breaking up. Well, Raab would have a very different response to that, Jen. But that is a very interesting insight from you.

Thank you for the message and taking the time. It beggars belief that it hasn't been his murderous policies, benefit cuts, policies of releasing disabled and vulnerable during COVID into care homes, the Rwanda project, but that the Pinscher incident, referring to Chris Pinscher MP, which has been the cause of his downfall reads this anonymous message Boris Johnson is a Prime Minister not a President. We vote for our local MPs not for a Prime Minister whatever he might want to believe so he does not have

any mandate for people who to continue. Just to also say I've been talking about who's thrown their hat in the ring I should also say Steve Baker has thrown his hat in the ring, a backbench Conservative MP you may remember from the Brexit days. It's something to keep up with all the different moving pieces of the Conservative Party this morning. Why is nobody talking about the Deputy Prime Minister

in any other organisation? If the leader is not there, the deputy steps in. So there is no reason to stay on as Prime Minister while the leadership contest takes place. During that time, the deputy can be the caretaker. Well, that was just raised by Nusrat Ghani, who is a woman in the know. She is the vice chair of the 1922 committee and had to come off our interview because she's going to have a meeting about what they do. In response, actually, it's quite an interesting and perfectly timed question from one of you, our listeners.

I tell you, I'm always all the better for your contributions about can you please get on with this and start having some decisions? Let's talk now to Ione Wells, our political correspondent at the BBC, actually one of the first journalists to break news of the initial resignations, but also to get that fracture which became a chasm in Number 10's armoury about the original Chris Pinch's story, which seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back when it comes to the Prime Minister and his future and the future, of course, of this government. Ione Wells, good morning. Morning, Emma. Let me ask you, first of all, what is the very latest? I have a tally of 59 resignations, one sacking and one Prime Minister who's going to step down as leader of the Conservative Party. Have I missed anything? No, I mean, in terms of numbers, that is correct. Although one sort of really

interesting development at the moment is just the sheer number of Tory MPs and former ministers now who are basically speculating as to whether or not the prime minister can really hang on till autumn, as he suggests. The general consensus, as one, I should say, former cabinet minister has just messaged, is that that would be controversial. He's done himself a lot of harm. I think there are sort of soundings being taken out at the moment about what is next. But I think it's just kind of fascinating. I mean, literally, Emma, about 12 hours ago, I was on the phone to Number 10, and they dictated to me a quote on the phone, which was there is no lectern outside Number 10 tonight. The PM fights on. There will be more appointments tonight.

I can read you other other extracts here. He said, you know, it's not true that cabinet ministers told me to resign. He's called their bluff, all these kinds of lines. And this, I'm told by some of the ministers who have now since resigned again this morning, was just another fuel on the fire, another thing that triggered some of the ministers who have now since resigned again this morning, was just another fuel on the fire. Another thing that triggered some of them to say enough is enough. We were there telling you tonight to do the honourable thing, to resign. You're now briefing out the press that that didn't happen.

And again, it's that pattern of behaviour which people are not happy with in the Conservative Party that they feel the truth is not being told by those right at the top. In case you're interested, the man who resigned as our health secretary at the height of a global pandemic, Matt Hancock, due to his own inappropriate behaviour in office, has called for the Prime Minister to resign, Matt Hancock. There are those queuing up now to say it. It seems to be safety in numbers. That's right. I think at the moment there are more and more, as I say, MPs who have said this. Yesterday there were ministers and senior Tory MPs essentially saying that it's now a question of who hasn't really said that they won't stand down, they won't back the Prime Minister. There are quite a lot, actually. So I was thinking about this. Even the Deputy Prime Minister, Dominic Raab, we have heard precious little from.

Even Nadeem Zahawi, who's just become the chancellor, you know, five minutes ago. We're told in the pages of The Times this morning he's been plotting with Lyndon Crosby to take over. But put that to one side. Even in his letter to, it seems, everyone talking about why the prime minister should go, he has not resigned. So there's this kind of odd situation, and some would say unprecedented, where you have members of the cabinet unable to remove a prime minister, but going out publicly to talk like this. That's right.

And I think it's interesting. I think one thing that might give us a sort of clue here to what might be going on is the message that was put out by the defence secretary, Ben Wallace. He essentially said that one of the reasons some cabinet ministers weren't standing down was that some of them have a duty to keep the country safe even when they don't necessarily believe the Prime Minister is the right person to be leading the government.

I think he was perhaps there, you know, without explicitly saying it, hinting that him as Defence Secretary, especially while the ongoing kind of crisis is going on in Ukraine, feels like he can't sort of leave that post unoccupied in government. But at the same time, as you say, we're in this bizarre situation where we have people like attorney generals, like defence secretaries saying, I don't back the prime minister, but I feel like I have to stay in government just simply so there is a government. Is anyone actually running the country right now, Iona Wells? That's a good question.

And there are very far and few between. As I say, there are certain cabinet ministers who have said or hinted that the reason they are staying on is for that reason, that they feel that there are certain posts in office, whether that be the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it be the Defence Secretary that they can't leave or Foreign secretary they feel they can't leave vacant at a time like this. However, there aren't many people. The ultimate authority comes from the prime minister who has himself said he's not going to be prime minister for very long. The rehiring spree must have stopped because it's very hard to know who you can rehire in a moment like this. And I imagine attention has shifted elsewhere.

You talked about lines that you were given last night from Number 10. That's how this works. You're a political correspondent. Have you spoken to Number 10 this morning? I don't know, last 10 minutes before you came on air? Is there any communication? I certainly spoke to my contact there this morning. It's unlikely to have, we're unlikely to have any guests. Don't save any

spots in the running order was the advice. That's right. There's been a sort of notable silence really from number 10 this morning, apart from this confirmation that the Prime Minister is going to resign and there will be a statement about this later. Other than that, there has been, I think silence has sort of said it all really this morning from number 10. We're not even sure at this stage whether there will be the usual journalists briefings that we really this morning from number 10. We're not even sure at this stage whether there will be the usual journalists' briefings that we get every day from number 10 to fill us in about usually the functioning of government and sort of policies that are being passed through at the time,

which goes back to your question of is there people running the country right now? Are there policies actually going through? How is government actually functioning at the moment? Well, we are getting the most extraordinary messages from the listeners to Radio 4, listeners to Woman's Hour. I will go through a few of them now. Perhaps you'll listen on Ione Wells, political correspondent at the BBC.

But Ione, can I ask that you will come back? We're on air till 11 with anything as anything as it breaks, because it would be good to hear from you. So I hope we can get you back up on the line. Ione Wells, political correspondent at the BBC. Let me tell you what you're saying to me and to all of us through this amazing message console I've got next to me and you're being very kind to message on. 84844 is the number you need to text on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour.

A message here. He is a very brave man. I feel for Boris Johnson today. It's absolutely disgusting the way that politicians, like a pack of wolves, have all agreed Boris Johnson should go and bade for his blood. Not one of them is fit to replace him. The person who replaces him must not be chosen from this pack of wolves.

Chuck all these wolves out of politics for good, along with the MP accused of sexually assaulting men. He should never be allowed to hold a seat as a politician ever again in any capacity. Perhaps the wolves could make sure he's excluded first, says Chloe, who's listening in Plymouth. Good morning to you. I have only ever voted Conservative once, in 1982, when I hoped a woman PM was going to make a positive contribution to British politics. But if there was an election tomorrow, I would vote for Boris Johnson. He has been a stalwart in supporting Ukraine when Europe wavered and seems to be the only one that understands that if we continue to appease,

there will not only be no gas over winter, but we in Europe will be held hostage over feud by Putin. We need someone with Churchillian qualities at the moment on the world arena to match Boris Johnson. I am appalled at the conservative weasels and the appalling backstabbing, which, as this message continues to say, it's just got cut off, which continues this morning. Keep your messages coming in. There is another set here of a different flavour. Hello, Emma. When is someone going to focus on Boris Johnson being an acute narcissist?

His severe personality disorder is at the heart of everything he does. It makes him incapable of seeing beyond himself, his needs, his ego. He will never believe he is wrong, incapable, and he will destroy everything around him rather than admit defeat or blame. He displays all of the behaviours of narcissism and they are always pathological liars

but never in their minds. It's a huge conversation that needs to be had because so many positions of leadership are filled with narcissists. Regards, says Charlotte, who's written in there. And we said here at Women's Hour, part of the discussion this morning, as well as keeping you up to date with what's happening, will be around Boris Johnson as the man. We've just heard from Nusrat Ghani, Vice Chair of the 1922 Committee, a Conservative backbench MP, that she believes because he is a man, he has been able to get away with certain things for so long and is sticking it out right now in a way she just simply wouldn't believe, doesn't believe would be possible for a female leader. I should also say for lots of other men. I mean, she didn't say that, but I know that's coming through on your messages.

I am a man, reads this message. Good morning. I have never understood Boris Johnson's political appeal to women. His history is littered with misogyny, with cheating on partners and wives, with disowning lovers and with a parenting track record still not fully owned up to. Why did women ever think him decent and suitable for the job? Well, let's speak to a woman who supported him as a political advisor or rather as a communications advisor when he was in terms of his job as mayor. Katie Perrier, good morning. Good morning.

You did support Boris Johnson for some time. I believe you also enjoyed working with him. You then went on to be an advisor at Downing Street under Theresa May. But let's park that. Why do women support Boris Johnson for some time. I believe you also enjoyed working with him. You then went on to be an advisor at Downing Street under Theresa May. But let's park that. Why do women support Boris Johnson? Well, actually, in the London Mayoral campaign, we worked out that that was the audience that we were struggling with the most. And we had to have a campaign and a plan of action

to try and get to understand why women didn't like Boris in the way that men did. Obviously, over time, enough women have supported like Boris in the way that men did. Obviously, over time, enough women have supported Boris Johnson to put him into number 10. But during the mayoral election, it was the female vote that we struggled with the most. Did you like working with him as a woman? I did really like working with him. And he has huge amounts of charm. He is great to be with, no two days are the same. It's exciting. I was in my late 20s. I learned a huge amount on the job. The thing I didn't like about working with Boris, and I did tell him this afterwards, but it didn't really go through. It went through one ear and out the other,

is that the thing that he would tell you on a Monday and you'd go out and tell journalists would not be the same thing that he would tell you on a Tuesday. And my reputation was at stake, and I would say to him, I just cannot be put in a position whereby you just change your mind or you forget what you said or you have no commitment to what you said and you have no intention of delivering it. And he would just shrug his shoulders and say, you know, pretty much like a former journalist would write, they're just words. It doesn't matter to me in the way it matters to you and I decided there and then I could probably never work for him again

when I went on to work for Theresa May in number 10 Downing Street and join her leadership campaign I don't think he ever forgave me. He said of it's reported he said of Theresa May when she stood down as the Tory party turned on her, that he wouldn't do that. And it's now becoming very apparent that as he holds himself up in number 10, I mean, he's meant to come out soon and talk and address the nation, that that is the psychology. There's a bunker mentality. And I mentioned right at the start of the programme, I don't know if you were with us at that point, Katie, or you could hear it,

that it seems he wants to forget about the MPs and think about the people. Well, he forgets that we actually vote for our MPs. We do not vote for a president. This is not a directly elected representative of the nation. We vote for our MPs. And so the constituency model means that he answers to his MPs who ask him to serve, and then he answers to the people. And so I'm not sure he's quite got that in the right order. I actually think people have been exceptionally loyal to Boris Johnson. I've spoken to many cabinet ministers this morning who say to me, I did everything I could not to resign.

I do think that Theresa May, actually, they kind of quit much earlier in this process and told her it was game over. And she read the mood and decided that actually she needed to go. I think this has been quite a mortifying experience for people that are supporters in the Conservative Party who want to be able to get on and lead. As you have pointed out already this morning, Emma, people are really worried about, you know, affording food on their table, school uniforms when their children go back to school in September. These are real issues. And we are neglecting the public when we start to sit ourselves in this position. If I may, and I'm going to talk to someone in a moment who specifically is trying to encourage more women to get into conservative politics. But if I may, I am also receiving messages that we must not ignore. It doesn't matter in terms of the process

that you describe. You're right to say we vote for our local MPs. But there are messages like this, Katy Perry, are coming through. Boris Johnson has taken us through the Covid pandemic, been ill and in hospital, as well as got Brexit at least started. He is now surrounded by backstabbing MPs who should be ashamed of themselves. I'm disgusted with the whole thing. The electorate are also not impressed, some of them, with the way that MPs and former ministers are behaving. And I understand that. And I actually think that this period of time

that Boris Johnson has led the Conservative Party, the country has become more divided and polarised than ever. And that's been encouraged in some way by wedge issues. They like to call it wedge issues at the heart of number 10, which is to show that, you know, whether it's a R Rwandan issue you were never going to get people to be going out in the numbers that they would require to make any difference to our immigration policy but it was still a policy they stuck to because they wanted to show it was a wedge issue I think that that has created more division in the public than this I would I would say to that person though and to some other people that if you think you're up

to going on radio and TV every day and lying on behalf of a prime minister and doing it then step forward and make yourself known because I don't think any politician who is in a job with integrity and is there to represent and serve should be put in that position quite frankly. Some would argue they've been put in that position for a long time on various issues and the relationship with the truth has been a difficult one throughout this administration especially of late not just with the Chris Pinscher issue. Katie Perrier now I should say also chair of in-house communications stay with me if you can I'd be very grateful we're still getting a lot of messages from our listeners another one here for instance how on earth can Conservative members still say Johnson is the best prime minister and should stay?

How many clear lies, indiscretions and examples of incompetence is enough? What would he have to do before they want him to resign? So talking about those who we haven't heard from in particular today. I mentioned an individual, a woman who wants to get more women to stand specifically for the Conservative Party, director of an organisation called Women to Win. She's been on the line since the beginning of the programme, been very patient. Charlotte Carew-Pole, good morning. Hello Emma, thanks for having me on. Why on earth should a woman in particular, because that's your focus, want to stand for this party under this sort of leadership? How's your sell going this morning?

Well, funnily enough, we've had quite a lot of interest because quite a lot of women have been sitting at home shouting at the radio or the TV, and they've been wondering whether they should send their applications in, and they've realised that this is the time, because if you want to change things, the only way to change it is to be in it. Are you saying the Boris Johnson effect could be to drive more women into conservative politics onto the front line?

Well, we are pleased by the reaction and the interest of people who are getting in touch saying, I want time and time and again, we see men getting into trouble and we have seen men getting into trouble, but we don't see women getting into these situations. We don't see the women getting involved in sleaze and the women see that they need to come forward. They only make up 25 percent. Well, I mean, women are not angels. I accept the point that with the latest spate of sleaze, it has majority been men. Certainly the names that we know of and some of sleaze, it has majority been men, certainly the names that we know of, and some of the names we're not allowed to say publicly. But I mean, I don't know if that's helpful to paint women that they don't, you know, get involved or get caught up in

bad things. Well, by and large, women are not involved in the scandals. The women tend not to let the party down. They won't embarrass their constituencies. Theresa May? And so the women see themselves as wanting to come forward and have a bigger voice. We could have a debate a different day about that because there are different views, aren't there, about how we view women. There's a school of thought as well, which

again, we could have a very fine debate on, maybe we will, this idea that, for instance, the pandemic would have been handled better by a female leader. A lot of people then, you know, point to Jacinda Ardern. There's also, would the financial crash have happened in the same way? Coming away from that, though, because I point out Theresa May, not involved in scandal per se, but she wasn't the leader people thought she was going to be. There was a thought that she would be and perhaps being a woman may have been to her asset.

It's interesting to hear women do want to step up, though, potentially at this time. Some, as I was hinting at, may have thought it would be the opposite. Do you think that will last? Do you think that will be something, or do you worry now that this particular moment, as it drags out, is harming the image of the Conservative Party as a place you might want to work? I don't think so. I think that the party will listen to the members and they will listen to the women and they encourage women to come forwards. And you heard Sajid talk yesterday

about the importance of family and his role as a father. And it is a key Conservative principle, the family. And I think that more women will continue to come forward because we need to get back to the principle of integrity and running the country and our true conservative values. Just to say about a key woman in the government, still in the government, I believe, not not knowing any different, but may be soon. Our political editor, Chris Mason, has said the Foreign Secretary Liz Trush, she's also the Women and Equalities Minister. She has a few other beats too, very busy woman. Liz Truss is cutting short her trip to a G20 meeting in Indonesia and returning to London. And we are told she will issue a statement shortly just to keep us

up to date there. Charlotte, have you, over your time in position as part of this organisation, but also as an individual, have you supported Boris Johnson? A lot of our listeners also getting in touch this morning are not happy with what's happening today. How do you feel about it? Well, I'm here to talk about Women to Win and our sole goal is to try and get more female Conservative MPs. But I presume you're a Conservative if you're running a Conservative organisation. OK, I don't need to draw you on your personal personal, I accept that. But what is your reaction today as an individual, if I could at least get a flavour of that? Yes, well, our supporters and myself are very uneasy about the lack of integrity and the

situation that has involved. We are deeply unhappy with the situation and it needs to change. So it is a good thing that it is coming to the end. Yes. It is a good thing that change is coming and let's grasp this opportunity. Let's encourage more women to come forward. Let's make the place a less toxic environment. There are not enough women,

the whole of the Conservative Party. Let's make it a friendlier place for women. And let's encourage more consensus politics. I mean, it's also been very striking. A lot is made by the spokespeople of Boris Johnson. We'll just pause on this for one moment, that he is a man who likes promoting women, working with women. A lot has been made about the balance of the cabinet, not the wider party. It's the lowest number since the early days of David Cameron. Is it? Yes, he doesn't do very well in promoting women. What I was going to say, though, I think that's actually more important, and I'm always at pains, if I can, to paint this picture to our listeners, is who surrounds him behind the scenes and the people who are advising him. And never have they been more important than right now because the walls have closed. And that is a nearly entirely male team when you look at it

until yesterday when Samantha Cohen, nicknamed Samantha the Panther for reasons I still don't yet know, who's moved from the Royal Family's office into number 10, got appointed as chief of staff because he had to, running out of people, just to remind everyone, take his chief of staff, who was an MP, Steve Barclay, and catapult him into the position of health secretary. So there is now a woman allegedly running number 10 as chief of staff. We need more women. We need more women in all areas throughout the party and in number 10. We need them everywhere because we do make up 50% of the electorate we just need more women you can disagree about whether we're involved in sleeves or not but the fact is is that women tend not to be involved in sleeves we roll up our sleeves we get on with the job we are good

reliable stable and you know we are more balanced and conciliatory and we take advice and we are good politicians when women tend to be more risk averse and therefore that would lend to a better type of politician. There's so much I could unpick there in debate. We tend to be, I mean, Theresa May just didn't deliver, but she even said herself she didn't do what she wanted to do. That's a whole other debate. I promise, Charlotte, you and I are going to have that debate

at some point, but now is not the day. Perhaps I can persuade you to sign up, Emma. And may I say before I go... No, that's not part of my job description. I'm sorry to say, I ain't signing up for any political party anytime soon.

What did you want to just... If there's anyone out there who knows a woman who will make a good politician, please come forward. Come on, sales pitch aside. It's not the day. But there you go.

Charlotte Kuruppol, director of something called Women to Win. If you are just joining us, good morning. It's always nice to say hello. Do feel you can get in touch. We're here. It's Women's Hour. We are also letting you know what's going on in the world. And the main thing in this country certainly is the implosion of the British government.

The prime minister has said he will not continue as leader of the Conservative Party, but has not attended his resignation as prime minister. More is expected directly from the Prime Minister. We're told at around lunchtime, we don't know, we will see. You know, there is an expectation at some point we will hear from the Prime Minister, or at least the government today. We have made the effort on this programme, as I'm sure all my colleagues are doing right now at the BBC and further afield, to hear from someone within government. But as the phrase goes, they've gone to ground. Liz Truss is literally returning to ground, returning to terra firma, returning to

London from her trip, the Foreign Secretary, the Women and Equalities Minister as well. She's cutting short her trip to a G20 meeting in Indonesia and coming back to London and expected to issue a statement shortly. But Boris Johnson is to resign as Conservative leader today. That's what the BBC has been told. Following further ministerial resignations, that ministerial resignation tally is still at 59 and one sacking. We're keeping you up to date, but we're also taking the temperature of you

and how you feel about this. And also what you think of Boris Johnson, the man, which is a big theme in your message. And the message is coming through this morning. Boris Johnson says, Trish and Stroud, good morning, reminds me all the time of the charming boy at school who bullied us, yet always got away with it. Another one here, I never understand why women

have supported Boris Johnson. And yet, many of you getting in touch are women, lots of men as well, good morning to you, very welcome, who have supported Boris Johnson. A message here to Woman's Hour. As a Green Party voter, I have never been a Boris Johnson fan. But yesterday, listening to him answering questions from the liaison committee,

that's where he went not long after Prime Minister's questions, live on the BBC World Service, for the first time I found myself sympathising with him. The questions were so rude, sarcastic and cruel. It was a cornered animal being savaged by a pack of dogs. Who'd be a politician, says Julia. Thank you very much for your message there. Do keep them coming in.

84844. I am aghast at the views of your listeners who are supporting Boris Johnson. Reads this other message from another listener. They are disregarding the history of duplicity, lack of ethics, morals. Boris Johnson's lack of commitment to the truth is long-standing

and his narcissistic view of his own standing as Prime Minister is at variance with reality. I am glad he is going. Well, not going as Prime Minister. I just want to keep with reality. I am glad he is going. Well, not going as prime minister. I just want to keep stressing that. He has resigned or is resigning, we've been told, excuse me, as leader of the Conservative Party, set to carry on until the autumn.

That's certainly the plan as it stands. Another message that's unequivocal from Jackie. Boris Johnson is a disgrace. He has made our country a laughingstock around the world. I cannot believe the amount of women who think he should stay. What is wrong with them? Should we ask that question to Sonia Purnell, a journalist and author of Just Boris, a tale of blonde ambition. Sonia Purnell, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you very much. You've studied the man. You've written a lot about him. Your first reaction to his response today, is it was very clear until that moment that he was going to try and brazen it out for as long as he possibly could, maybe day by day to try and think how he

could sort of, you know, retreat into his bunker and protect himself. Like you say, he hasn't resigned as prime minister, although I'm really not sure how that's going to work. But this is very much part of the man. I mean you know he's wanted that job all his life not really to do anything much with it but for the power that goes with it so he wanted to become prime minister rather more than be prime minister i think and that was always going to be very difficult for him to give it up and he's always been super competitive he always wanted to be top dog you know once he does leave Downing Street whether he's forced out or whatever ultimately it's going to be a big come down and I think his future now

is pretty uncertain he's going to be quite likely quite frightened about that well frightened tell me more about that well you know I think he wanted a much better legacy than he's going to have and there's been a great Boris Johnson brand the Boris brand that a lot of people wanted to associate themselves with he was sort of you know a political celebrity um beyond anyone else par excellence no one had ever quite had that kind of level of celebrity but but the problem with having a brand of course is that it can go toxic and his brand has definitely gone toxic and so where he might have been expected sort of travel the world and make gazillions i think that's less likely now because he's known the world over

and believe me i travel a lot and i speak to a lot of people all over the place um he's seen internationally really you know as a sort of liar and a charlatan and someone who's done very bad things to britain's standing no no this is absolutely no no sonia as i always say to many of my guests speaking for the world speaking for a group of people it's a dangerous game you don't know how everybody absolutely feels and also yeah well sorry if i may um what i would say is some of the flavor of our messages today who are of of people living in this country who are still supporting Boris Johnson are talking actually about his international standing in light of Ukraine. And that the world stage has been more welcoming and receptive to him of late than the domestic one. Well, I mean, obviously, every country, every society has different views. And I'm not saying that everyone all thinks along the same way.

But if you read the foreign press, which I do, and speak to foreign broadcasters, which I do a lot, I write books, which means that I travel a lot to research them and to comment on them. The constant question I'm asked is, hey, what on earth is going on over there? You know, is this chaos? You know, who is this guy? It's a fast moving picture today, Sonia, and I'm going to try and keep on top of it for the remaining 10 minutes or so I'm on air here on Radio 4 on Woman's Hour. And I'm grateful for your time. Sonia, can I just bring you to something else, which is a theme in some of our messages?

You may expect so on Woman's Hour from especially our female listeners, but some men have written in on this. It is commenting on the fact that a woman wouldn't have stuck it out like this for so long. Perhaps a woman, as Nazarat was saying, Nazarat Ghani, the Conservative backbench MP, was saying right at the beginning of the show, a woman with the position and some of the experiences and some of the things that have been said and written by this prime minister just wouldn't have even been put in high office, never mind now sticking it out in the way that he is. What do you make of that as a theory? I think there is something in that. I think that women in public life, unfortunately, and let's hope that changes,

are treated more harshly than men. I mean, there is a bit of, you know, boys will be boys type of attitude to men generally in public life and politicians as well. And I think Boris Johnson benefited from that for a very long time. I suppose the flip side of that is that when it does finally go wrong,

it can be perhaps, you know, even more sort of corrosive and virulent as you see as you see now I think there was always you know some sympathy for for Theresa May but then you know she lost power not because of her character faults but because people didn't you know agree with her her policy or she wasn't able to drive her policy through so I think you know the way that they're going is very very very different but yes I do think men in some ways get a lighter ride than women do in politics and we've really really got to find a way of of changing that and encouraging more women to come in I totally agree with your former speaker on that and you know and also

trying to see them promoted to to jobs and then supporting them when they're there i mean i think i think if if there's one thing that might possibly come out of all of this which is positive that you know maybe that will will happen that we we really do need more consensus politics now we really have had far too much division um we need more sensible more more analytical, more discursive politics. Oh, please, please, please, can we have that? I mean, that really would be good. Let me also ask you another theme which is coming up specifically as we are talking on Woman's Hour is about the idea of his personal life and the way he has managed that. There are

echoes of that now in the way that he has handled his relationships with conservative MPs. You've studied both the personal and the political and where they have merged as well. What do you make of that, Sonia Pannell? Well, in the way that he treats MPs? Yes. I mean, having worked with him, I was his deputy 30 years ago, we were both reporting on the EU for the Telegraph when he was writing all those bendy banana stories and things and he he was almost impossible to work with um he he's not a sort of collegiate person he doesn't sort of share things when I arrived completely you know um a newbie he he wasn't someone who would sort of take me around and introduce me to people help me on my way in fact if anything he put lots and lots of barriers in in my way I mean he's not really a team player and so I think also there is a flip side to that so that when things again go

wrong as they have done now that because he's not particularly loyal to other people and hasn't really helped them you know I think a lot of people will think, why on earth should I help him now? And I suspect, you know, that some of the people that we thought were Boris Johnson loyalists and who in fact turned out not to be, that's part of the reason is that he isn't someone who shares, he isn't a team player, he doesn't really know how to be. It's curious's curious actually because he has great empathy with crowds so he's absolutely brilliant at that but one-to-one empathy is strangely lacking he's very difficult person to get to know and share things with and funnily enough Sonia a comparison there some have made with Theresa May not that many friends in the Conservative Party not clubbable

in that way yes not comparable in terms in terms of the comfort with crowds, but how they interact with individuals has also been compared about when things happen and are there the friendships and the bonds there to support them. Sonia, we're going to have to leave it there. Very good to talk to you. Sonia Purnell, journalist and author of Just Boris, a tale of blonde ambition and also has known the individual

for a long time to give us that flavour. Another one, Boris Johnson has saved thousands of lives with his COVID vaccination strategy and his leadership with respect to the war in Ukraine has been exemplary. I am disgusted by the power hungry traitors in the Conservative Party who will rip themselves and the country apart in pursuit of ambition. The British people do not share the views of the London press who have spun their own lies in the relentless bullying of the Prime Minister, reads that anonymous message. And yet there's another one here which I think pairs quite well with it, saying can we please stop giving him the credit for the vaccination rollout?

It was a woman, it was Kate Bingham, whose foresight and determination got the vaccination rollout done. Kate Bingham, of course, also actually appointed by Boris Johnson and his team, I would just add. Iona Wells, our political correspondent, is still with me, I hope, for the BBC. Iona? Hi, I'm still here. Any more resignations? I thought I'd come back to you and check. We haven't had resignations, but one thing that is certainly turning everyone's minds at the moment is the shift to talk about leadership and leadership contests. We need a new leader of the Conservative Party. Where the mood is going.

My colleague Ian Watson has broken the news, a senior Conservative he was speaking to in the Commons, broke off a conversation with him to take a call and said, it's Nadeem, it started. Remember, Nadeem Nazahawi only two days ago was just defending the government on the airwaves saying he was excited to be the new chancellor. And now it looks like his leadership campaign is up and running behind the scenes. We know the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has cut short a trip to Indonesia to come back. And she's due to make a statement shortly as well. These are all sort of people whose names have, of course, been doing the rounds when it comes to people who will be potentially throwing their hats in the ring for future leadership. So really interesting updates there. Then there's this question as well of how much longer Tory MPs can tolerate the Prime

Minister being in charge in the interim. I've just had texts from some senior conservatives saying there's a growing feeling that Dominic Raab needs to form an interim administration until the leadership election is done, especially if he's not running for leader. So lots of Tories sort of messaging to say they just don't think it's tenable for him to stay on in that interim period until the autumn. Aya Nuals, the woman who broke the initial part of that story about what was true and what was not true about what Boris Johnson has said about Chris Pincher. Remember him, the Conservative MP, over which this particular scandal began and erupted

and takes us to where we are now. You have been sending many messages in throughout, someone saying here Putin will be laughing his socks off, another one saying Boris Johnson cannot possibly remain as a caretaker in number 10. He must go. Surely the Conservative Party realise he stands for mistrust. Our country stands for more than this, says Janet. Huge thanks for your company and contributions this morning.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.