Woman's Hour - Nusrit Mehtab, Author Cathy Rentzenbrink, Olympian Hannah Mills

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

Irish soldier Cathal Crotty was given a three-year suspended sentence after beating Natasha O'Brien unconscious in May 2022. Now, in the latest development, he is due to be formally discharged from the Defence Forces. Nuala hears Natasha's reaction and speaks to Diane Byrne, a spokeswoman for the Women of Honour group, to hear what impact this could have. Hannah Mills is the most successful female sailor in Olympic history, having won medals at the London, Rio and Tokyo Olympic Games. Now she’s taking part in the Sail Grand Prix, an international sailing competition. Ahead of the finals this weekend, Hannah joins Nuala to talk about the work going into making the sport more gender equitable. Nusrit Mehtab spent 30 years serving in the Metropolitan Police before resigning, citing her own mental health and a toxic culture as reasons. Now she’s written a memoir looking back on her career. Nusrit joins Nuala to talk about the more shocking revelations as well as what it was that kept her going.Cathy Rentzenbrink is known for her non-fiction books – but now she’s written a second fiction novel – Ordinary Time. It tells the story of Ann, a reluctant vicar’s wife, and her grappling with ideas of marriage, duty and temptation. Cathy joins Nuala to tell us more.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, today we have the most successful female sailor in Olympic history with us. Hannah Mills is getting ready to participate in the Sail Grand Prix. It is an exhilarating race to watch. So we're going to hear what it's like to take part in. How did she make it that far?

We actually had her on about 20 years ago, so it's been quite the journey. Also this hour, the extraordinary career of Nazareth Maytab, who came to the Metropolitan Police as a young Muslim woman of Pakistani heritage. That was in the 80s. She then rose to become one of the highest ranking British Asian women in the force. Nazareth speaks about the challenges she said she was up against, including racist and sexist behaviour, and also about being seen as an outsider. We also have the bestselling author, Cathy Rensenbrink, who has a new book out.

It's called Ordinary Time. And it's about a woman torn between her desires and her responsibilities. Cathy will be in studio with me. But before that, I have a question for you. Has there been a time in your life when you walked away from what was considered, by whomever, your responsibility or your duty? Was it difficult? How did it feel? How did it feel?

How did you make the decision? Did you walk away for good? Or did guilt or some other emotion bring you back? The number to text the programme 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website

for WhatsApp or voice note. That number is 03700 100 444. I want to hear your stories. And we will have Cathy a little later this hour on the programme. But I want to begin. Two to put her down, two to put her out. They were the words used by the Irish soldier Cathal Crotty to friends on Snapchat after beating Natasha O'Brien unconscious. You might remember that we covered this story on Woman's Hour just a couple of weeks ago. Natasha was attacked by Cathal Crotty in May 2022. She had asked him to stop shouting homophobic abuse before he attacked her.

Her case went to the courts, but Crotty was given a three-year suspended sentence. The judge said the defendant, I quote, must be given credit for his guilty plea. And the judge also told the court that he had no doubt that if Crotty was jailed, his army career would be over. Well, that decision by the judge sparked huge protests in cities across the Republic.

I spoke to Natasha a couple of weeks ago. This is how she described it to me. This is a soldier in our Defence Force, the Irish Defence Force. Their mission is, their vision is to protect the citizens of Ireland and keep the peace. That is their duty in Ireland and to know that he was receiving special combat training that he then used on me when I was speaking up and trying to prevent something violent from happening. It's just lunacy. It's really, really shocking. But it's absolutely not shocking at all, because this happens all the time.

So, a development. Cathal Crotty is due to be formally discharged from the Irish Defence Forces tomorrow. So we go back in touch with Natasha just a few minutes ago and we asked her for her reaction to the news. My attacker's dismissal from the Irish Defence Forces is not a moment of celebration. It's the bare minimum and it's been quite saddening and frightening to see the public reaction of relief and happiness when this is, and a sense that justice is being served, when this is just one tiny little micro move forward.

It's quite a frightening time to know that you have to make this much noise to be even listened to for the bare minimum to be done. Natasha O'Brien there. Well, I'm joined now by Diane Byrne, a spokesperson for the Women of Honour Group. They have been campaigning against abuses of female members of the Irish Defence Forces. Welcome, Diane, to Women's Hour. First, your reaction to this decision by the Defence Forces to discharge Mr Crotty? It should have been done without the uproar that it has caused. We can't have people who are violent in an organisation where we are readily arming them to do their job.

It just is not an option. Do you know why this decision was taken now? I can only suspect that it is the public outcry, perhaps joined with the timing of the tribunal of inquiry that we have fought very hard for for quite some time and the sentencing of Mr Croaghe by the judge and the lenient sentence happened on the same day that the tribunal was officially launched and perhaps it's a combination of that and the fact that Natasha O'Brien was so vocal in speaking out. But it comes with a lot of frustration because we ourselves as a group

have been dealing with senior members of government for three years now, raising the serious issues and the serious concerns we have, both about the violence, the sexual assaults, the whole range of issues that we have been dealing with. In particular, we've looked for violence against women who are in who are civilians by members of the Defence Forces to be included in the terms of reference of that tribunal. And that has not been included. So forgive me for stepping on you there, Diane, but I just want to make a couple of things clear to our audience.

First, on Crotty's discharge, that we, Woman's Hour, contacted the Irish Defence Forces this morning. We haven't heard back. They did tell us a couple of weeks ago that they unequivocally condemn any actions by serving personnel that are contrary to military regulations or that do not reflect their values.

They also said the Chief of Staff, the Lieutenant General, Sean Clancy, has directed a thorough review across all brigades and formations. And a report is being prepared for Antónis, that's the second ranking member of the Irish government. But let me pick up on some of the points that you are making there. So this tribunal of inquiry, what is its aim? So from our perspective, we hope it'll achieve what we're looking for it's a stepping stone the starting point to identify the real problems that exist within the defense forces because there

is a sense of concealment it is a self-policing self-enforcing closed organization and we know we have countless anecdotal and actual evidence around what has happened previously. What we're trying to do now is expose all of that so that we can actually put some genuine solutions in place. So let me turn back to that point you were making, because we've given that wider view, that you are looking for female civilians that have been abused in any way or attacked by members of the Irish Defence Forces to also be included within that tribunal as one of the things that they look at? Yes, absolutely.

We've had a number of female civilians contact us in the three years that we've been doing what we're doing, explaining incidents that are actually very live incidents at the moment. And we have raised them with the defence forces and with the government. And a decision was made, a conscious decision was made not to allow those women to be involved in the tribunal. A couple of things. At the time that Natasha O'Brien was speaking out a couple of weeks ago about this attack, and particularly the suspended sentence as it was. You know, members of the Irish government,

opposition also, they stood up for two minutes and gave her this standing ovation. Do you not think that that illustrates that there is a willingness for change or at least to listen to these stories? I would love to believe that, but the women of honour themselves have attended it though. We've attended government, we've gotten, you know, all of the celebration and the congratulations and, you know, suggestions around our bravery and our

courage, but nothing happened. You know, there's actions speak a lot louder than words here. And we're not seeing the changes they've known about all these things. Natasha is the next in a line of issues. So what would those changes be? Well, I think the only move at this point is to get into the tribunal and let's understand what's going wrong so we can put proper fixes in place. A lot of what's happening is jumping the gun, so to speak. They're putting cultural changes. They're putting, now we're looking at people

who have records in the defence forces. Why now? We've raised these issues loads of times before. If this was really about making the changes, they would have done it already. But is that not a good step to go through,

to go through the defence forces and see who had previous charges or convictions for violence against them? Absolutely, it's a very welcome step. But it implies that they have been hiding these people or not dealing with this issue up to now. And they've known about them. And as well as that, in Natasha's case, and I hate to say it's lucky in some ways,

but the vast majority of people never got as far as Natasha got because all their issues were concealed before it ever made it to the guards or the judges system. And so you're looking for more transparency. I will say again that we have reached out to the Irish Defence Forces.

We have not got a response this morning. We did a couple of weeks ago where they said they are working on this really wide-ranging reform and taking a review, really, taking a look across brigades and all formations. But you know what?

I was struck by Natasha when I spoke to her, that she said it's not just about the Defence Forces in Ireland, that it's about misogyny in the country. Oh, that's totally the case. It is absolutely widespread across so many aspects of society, I think even wider than Ireland, but definitely in Ireland alone.

And we have people coming from all aspects of government organisations and various different jobs coming to us and explaining the issues that they have experienced. There is a huge societal issue. But what we're looking to do is deal with the one that if we can lead from the defence forces where it's actually probably worse. It's not that there's more terrible people in there. There's very, very good people working in the Irish defence forces. But because there isn't the accountability on those people in those areas, then I think we have more, perhaps. Because people like Tom Crotty see it's OK because we're not dealing with people.

Yes, and I read at the beginning his comments on Snapchat. But after that particular attack, Diane, why are you speaking out? Has it affected you personally? Well, from a personal perspective, I served 13 years in the Defence Forces and I was the considered the first female engineer in the permanent Defence Forces. So I was kind of quite new for that for that role. And I have had significant issues over the time. The abuses that happen don't just relate to violence or don't just relate to sexual assault, even though I do believe the vast majority of women have suffered some version of inappropriate behaviour. From my perspective, I suffered quite a bit. I had some fantastic times and some very hard times with the challenges that come with being a female in that type of organisation. But for me, I was heavily

discriminated against on a maternity issue. And I ended up being in a position where I had to leave the Defence Forces because the bullying got quite horrific by the end. And I actually pursued the Defence Forces and the state through the courts and won in the courts and highlighted the issues. And the unfortunate part about it, which is where my cynicism comes from,

is the fact that instead of looking at my case and realising the judge who had gone in my favour and said, yes, this person was treated appalling, you do have issues in your organisation. Instead, the government and the defence forces took it upon themselves to pursue me through the appeals court and have the whole thing dealt with on a technicality.

So the issue is... So did you lose the appeal? Forgive me, Diane, just to have clarity. Yeah, so you lost on appeal. Yes, I lost on appeal. Yes. So, but it didn't deal with the issues. And if it really was about dealing with the problems

in the defence forces, then they would have learned their lesson from that. And it wouldn't have been just about destroying a victim and getting a win from their perspective. Diane Byrne, a spokesperson for the Women of Honour Group. And of course, I haven't had a specific response from the Irish Defence Forces on Cahill Crotty or indeed the case as you outline it.

That is your description of it. But thank you very much for coming on. It's a story we'll continue to follow. And you might remember when we first talked about this on Women's Hour a couple of weeks ago. I was asking, did you ever walk away

from something that you considered your responsibility or somebody considered your responsibility or duty and how was it? Here's one from Manda. I was the first person

in my family to go to university, but due to depression, I just couldn't hack it. I left after a few months and telling my mum was the hardest thing as she had been denied hack it. I left after a few months and telling my mum was the hardest thing as she had been denied that opportunity. I know I really let her down and walked away

from a familial responsibility as she held education in such high regard. 30 years later, after diplomas, a degree and a master's degree, I am back at the same institution that I left at 19 doing a PhD. Amanda, it's so interesting. Thank you for starting us off on those stories.

84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Why don't you turn next to Hannah Mills, OBE. She is the most successful female sailor in Olympic history. She's won two gold medals and a silver. Where do you go from there? Well, apparently to take part

in an exhilarating international sailing competition. The Sail Grand Prix has been described as Formula One on water. So there's these high performance boats. They race at speeds of up to 100 kilometres per hour.

Yeah, just get that into your head. She is, Hannah, the strategist on the Team GB boat. And she's joining me ahead of the grand finale of Sail GP, which will take place in San Francisco this weekend.

But just before we speak to you, Hannah, I can see you on my screen. This is not your first time on Woman's Hour. In fact, Hannah was first on the programme in 2004.

She had already become the Girls World sailing champion in the Optimist World Championship. This was at the age of 15 and she was part of a Woman's Hour series

on sports superstars of the future. We must have had a crystal ball. Let's have a listen. When I race, I do generally get quite nervous before the race. You get a nice rush, but as soon as you start the race, it kind of just goes

because there's no room for nerves. You've just got to race. When you do well, it makes you want to carry on doing it. But it can be really scary if there's big waves. Say you do well it makes you want to carry on doing it. It can be really scary if there's big waves. Say you're out ahead winning or something, that's the most nervous part because everyone's behind you and you just keep looking back at them thinking oh don't catch me, don't catch me. When it's windy it can be really hard sailing because

you have to let the sail in and out so the boat stays flat. And it's mentally draining as well, racing, because there's so much to think about and you come off the water really tired. Ambitions in the short term are in the 420 to just go to the world, go to the youth world, which they only select one girl and one boy boat for out of Great Britain. But then after the 420 maybe to move into the 470 which is just a bigger version of the 420 and um hopefully do an Olympic campaign or something would be would be good yeah Olympics would be good yeah Hannah Mills there in 2004 Hannah Mills now in 2024 what does it sound like listening to yourself

now let me see do I have your sound there Hannah let us try there yeah I got you now there we go um that was so bizarre I sound so Welsh maybe I still do but I just feel like I sound so much more Welsh back then and what about that young girl almost a woman and her dreams? Yeah, it's, it's actually amazing getting to listen back to that. It was so nice and so refreshing. And yeah, just I feel, yeah, it took me back to being a girl with kind of so much ambition and dreams and future. It was cool. That you managed to carry out. Yeah, that's the weird part. I know, the reality was, yeah,

it's unbelievable having done three Olympic Games. Yeah, amazing. Well, you know, I was struck by young Hannah talking about it can be a bit scary at times. And I have to say, I got very into watching the Sail GP or Sail Grand Prix, as it's called, yesterday. These are, we have to describe what this race is, Hannah, and you are a better woman than me to do it.

So Sail GP is quite a new global sailing league. We're in season four and it's all around the world we had 12 events um this year we have 10 teams all nationality teams so obviously I race for Great Britain sailing these massive 50 foot foiling catamaran boats so foiling means they literally fly out the water on hydrofoils which means they go incredibly fast it's stadium racing so we race really close to the shore generally in cities you know people can come on the water to watch or there's hospitality right um right by the race course and the races are short they're like 10 minutes long each um we do three races a day

over a weekend culminating in a in a final a final top three shootout winner takes all. So it's basically like these boats are flying. That is the way I would describe it on the water and very close, like almost like a high stakes obstacle race. But with these giant boats that you are trying to manoeuvre. And just listening to young Hannah there talking about, oh, sometimes it's a little bit scary. That seems it seems to me like you went to the scariest thing. You decided to go to the scariest place. I mean, actually, I say I did.

But then I think about people that do, you know, ocean races and things like that and go to the Southern Ocean. That to me would be scarier. But yes, LGP and those boats, the speeds we go, the proximity we are to each other. You know, we are literally inches away from each other. And sometimes, you know, there are collisions and things. So it's really high tariff, but it's just unbelievable. It's absolutely amazing. Described as the fastest race on earth.

Do you have a moment that is in your mind where things got hairy? And I'm talking about not just with SailGP, but in your sailing career. Yeah, I mean, we had a bit of a moment at the Rio Olympics where we were out on the ocean off of Copacabana Beach. It was quite light winds, actually, not too windy. And then all of a sudden, literally from the opposite direction just this black water was coming towards us um and this huge storm came with you know a lot of wind a lot of boats capsized you know people was everywhere there's carnage boats were breaking and this was kind of mid olympic games so it was pretty pretty um high high stakes i guess if you had damage to your

boat and things and um yeah it was a big scramble to get everyone ashore and people came in in dribs and drabs and luckily everyone was okay. But yeah, that was probably the windiest experience I've had in my Olympic career. Is it, I found it an adrenaline rush watching it. Is it adrenaline-fueled participating? In COGP, it's full on. Yeah, you know, you are properly pumped every time you step on the boat. The speeds we reach, the acceleration, the G-force you get turning corners is massive. Yeah, it's full on.

So there were no women sailors in the inaugural year of SailGP a number of years ago. Then in 2021, the rules changed. Now, each team has to have at least one woman sailor on their boat. Do you think you would be there if there wasn't a quota? Honestly, no, I don't. You know, it's an awesome programme that SailGP have started,

the Women's Pathway Programme. And sailing for me is one of the few sports, I think, you can really race men and women together or against each other on kind of equal terms. So it's really exciting that there is this programme and we are racing. There's six people on board and all the teams have one female athlete.

We're pushing for more, but it's a slow burner. But yeah, it's a step in the right direction but you know as always we want it to be quicker so i was kind of getting up to speed with some of the roles you're the strategist what does that mean yeah so i'm the strategist so i stand kind of right at the back of the boat behind the driver and i'm basically looking up the course looking at the wind um we get a lot of data in SailGP on the boats that tell us things about how the wind's blowing, where it's blowing from, lots of different information. And so I'm basically the eyes and I'm strategizing and telling the driver what I think the best route is for us to get around the course as quick as possible. Is that as physical as the other roles?

No. So on SailGP, there's four roles which aren't particularly physical. So the strategist, the driver, the guy who's trimming the wing sail, and then the flight controller who is literally flying the boat out of the water. And then there's two grinders, which are the front of the boat, which is basically like cycling with your arms. And those roles are really, really physical. There is a female American athlete actually doing one of those roles, which is pretty awesome to see. But they're the two roles that are really, really physical on the boat.

And, you know, you mentioned there that you feel racing is somewhere where men and women can really compete against one another. If that's the case, why isn't it happening i mean i think with this type of sailing so this foiling sailing where the boats are flying um it's really a new type of sailing it kind of kicked off properly properly in 2013 um with the america's cup and that at the time was all men sailing that boat and you know females haven't had the opportunity or chance to kind of get on these boats. So we've got almost a 12 year experience gap which we're trying to close. So that's probably the biggest challenge

that we're facing is that kind of 12 years of experience. Because it's not just though, I think a gender gap when I was looking at it. It seems like there's a diversity gap as well or an inclusivity gap. These are incredibly expensive boats.

Did I read five million perhaps for the catamarans? Obviously, there's also the traveling, like if you're going to go San Francisco, your catamaran needs to get there too. Nothing is easily accessible. Does that concern you? Yeah, I mean, SailGP as a league is doing a lot actually around accessibility. I mean, they own all the boats. All the boats are one design. SailGP keep ownership of the boats. They do all the logistics and the transportation. And then obviously the sailors are a part of the individual teams, some of which are owned, of which sergp still own and within sergp we have

something called the impact league um which is kind of the second podium we have a podium for the people racing on the water but then there's the impact league which is the podium for the planet off the water and a huge part of that is around de and i um and so every team had to do a big project around de and i so So diversity and inclusion? Sorry, yes, diversity, equity, inclusion. And so our team, part of our project was partnering up with the Greed Academy, which is an inner-city London school. You should go check them out. They've got the most amazing teacher, a guy called John Holt,

who started a sailing part of, I guess, academia for his students. And it's kind of seven, eight years in now. And what he's achieved is just phenomenal, getting lots of kids out on the water. And now a lot of them have careers in the sport. We're picking up some of their top talent, I guess, to come and be part of our LGP team. So, yeah, we're kind of, I guess,

trying to bridge that gap of grassroots to the top. You know what I loved? That you came back to sailing after having a baby. Yeah. How was that? I did. It was hard. It was really, really hard.

It still is hard, to be honest. I'm about to go to San Francisco, and unfortunately, Sienna, my daughter, is not coming. It's five, six days away, and yeah, it breaks my heart every single time I have to leave and walk out the door and the mum guilt and all of those things is yeah every time but you'd go out is my understanding and then come back to shore breastfeed back out on the boat when you were training when i first started yeah so three months after i had sienna we went to singapore for a

surgery event and um you know she came and I was still feeding her. And yeah, I'd be out for four or five hours on the water. I'd come back in and I'd be like, where's Sienna? Nick, my fiancé at the time, bring Sienna. And so he brings Sienna and I'd be feeding her while the whole team would be there debriefing and chatting through the day's racing. So lovely to have you on. I have to say, I have a newfound interest in a sport that I hadn't got previously.

I will be watching out for you, Hannah Mills. Good luck at the grand finale this weekend in San Francisco. And I know you've got to race off to get ready for that race. So thank you for spending some time with us this morning.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Shall we stay with some sport? Some exciting news. This time, next week, I will be broadcasting to you live from the iconic Lord's Cricket Ground. The Test Match special box nonetheless. I've gone to check it out. It's very cool.

This is to coincide with a huge T20 match that's between England and New Zealand. We'll be discussing all things women's cricket from the woman who runs the women's game at the England and Wales Cricket Board to a 16-year-old starting her own business after being fed up of wearing boys hands me downs

hands me downs even while playing so join us for what is going to be a fantastic programme it's Wednesday at 10am right here on Radio 4 from Lourdes how much fun right another message coming in talking about walking away from duty or responsibilities

I don't have a name for this one but they say my mum had a brain haemorrhage and tumour when I was 15. Along with my dad, I became a carer for her. I did this until I was 18. And while obviously I love my mum, I did leave home and went to college.

I had to give myself some space as the stress of caring impacted my mental health. It was the hardest thing I did. After my college course, I felt I then had to go home and look after my mum. I did this for two years

and she sadly passed away. I was pleased I came back and have no regrets about taking on the responsibility of caring for her in our home till she left us. Thank you for sharing that, 84844. I'm asking for those

because we're going to be speaking in a little while of one of the themes that comes up in the book Ordinary Time about desires and responsibilities and about walking away sometimes from duty. So we'll talk about that a little later. But my next guest is Nusret Maytab. Now she started a career with the Metropolitan Police

in the 1980s and she rose from police constable to superintendent, becoming one of the highest ranking British Asian women in the Metropolitan Police at the time. She quit in 2020 and now she's written a book about her 30-year career. It's called Off the Beat. Nusrat worked in some of the most challenging areas of policing, so serious and organised crime, counter-terrorism, clubs and vice. She was also the first woman of Pakistani heritage to become an undercover officer in the UK. But through that time, she says, she experienced racism and misogyny as a brown Muslim woman in the Met. When I spoke to her, I asked her why she wanted to tell her story.

You know, after Sarah Everard and how policing took place and various other events that have been going on. I really wanted to use my lived experience and my journey to give the reader a real insight into the minutia, the granular of how culture works. We've all heard that toxic culture, culture needs to change, but how does it work? What does it actually mean? And also my experience is representative of what happens in other organisations too. And certainly I wanted to look at promotion and how the glass ceiling, but when it comes to women of colour, people of colour,

that glass ceiling is reinforced. It's a metal ceiling. You were a young woman, 21 years of age when you joined, and Muslim of Pakistani heritage. Take us back to that time. It's how the book opens. What do you remember or some of the thoughts that were going through your head on why you wanted to join the Met? It wasn't my career that I was looking towards or that was something I really wanted to do. But I walked into the careers office and my choice was air hostess, but that wasn't meant to be due to my body type. As my careers officer told me, I didn't know there

was a body type, but there you are. So yeah, she pointed me in the direction of the Met and said, there you go. And really the rest is history. You know, policing wasn't on my radar because it's not, it didn't, policing wasn't prominent in the communities that I lived in. It wasn't for people like me. I didn't see people like me. And, you know, going, walking into Hendon, it was extremely overwhelming. Where you did your training. You know, the first thing I remember is the resistance to difference. You know, there's a very profound culture in policing and there's a pressure or it pushes you to be like each other, you know, look like each other, sound the same and have the same mindset. And I wasn't. I was different from straight away.

So straight away, I was othered because I was different. But that theme seems to have run throughout my career. And that theme is still so very prevalent today. Let's talk about skirts. You didn't want to wear one. That was the uniform at the time for female police officers. Give us a window into what that battle was like to not wear a skirt but to be allowed to wear trousers. It was a real battle and that's where that difference came into it. I was othered, I stood out like a sore thumb. You're talking about late 80s, early 90s, that police women didn't wear skirts and they didn't wear trousers, but they hadn't thought of it. And so it was a real shock to them. They stood back and took a deep breath.

And I was like, hey, I don't wear skirts. My culture, my religion is something I don't do. And they weren't ready for that, which really surprised me. And it was a real battle because while everybody else was celebrating, becoming a part of everything, I was just on my own and I was completely othered. So it took the next few weeks for them to get together to discuss what they would do about me. And then when I finally did get the victory of my trousers, if you like, I got men's trousers. They didn't have female trousers. So it just was really difficult to imagine. And you weren't allowed to alter them, if I remember correctly. No, initially, because they're the property of the Metropolitan Police Service. You can't

alter the uniform. So you had to wear it. But, you know, after looking like Charlie Chaplin, as I describe in the book, I did alter them and nobody even picked up on it. And you managed to change the policy? Yes. Policy changed after that incident. You know, in that chapter, when you talk about clothing and about skirts, I was horrified by one of the stories you told where women, policewomen, were bent over a desk and stamped with a rubber stamp by other police officers. Yes.

So that was the... With their skirt lifted up, I should say. Yeah, yes. So, I mean, there were, yeah, it's horrific, isn't it? Those were the initiation ceremonies that women got. So luckily, by the time I got there, that didn't happen. But there were other initiation ceremonies. And, you know, people listening will say, yeah, but that was, you know, that was decades ago.

No, there's still initiation ceremonies that are being carried out. And Baroness Louise Casey, in her review, identified the number of different initiation ceremonies that women and people of colour have told us. So things like female officers have described having to be made to do eating challenges until they're sick. A male recruit or a male officer describes how he was assaulted in the shower. Things like leaving pork in a Muslim officer's shoes, you know, doing horrible things to a Sikh officer's turban. So those are all things that are happening as we speak. And with that Casey review that you mentioned, and she described some of the behaviour as institutionally racist, homophobic or misogynistic. Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley accepted the report's findings,

but would not accept the term institutional. Do you think the force can change that culture? People have said it has changed in the decades since you've been there. I think the very first thing before you can address something is you have to admit that there's an issue, there's a problem. So you can't change it if you don't think that it's institutionally racist, misogynistic or homophobic. If you don't acknowledge that, how can you change something that you don't believe exists? The Met did give us a statement. They said it's not the same Met as 20, 25 years ago. We've made huge improvements and becoming a more representative workforce. We now provide mandatory diversity training for all officers and staff, which promotes respect and understanding towards

all communities. Our high standards and expectations are made clear when officers and staff join the Met and are reinforced during training throughout their careers. We have a clear set of values for staff and the Code of Ethics reinforces the standards of behaviour expected. We have done more than almost any other organisation, they say, to ensure that racism isn't tolerated and we champion equality and inclusion. Like all big organisations, we know we can't be complacent and we'll continue to actively support and listen to our communities and our staff

and be an organisation which learns and continually seeks to improve. Well, it's quite a disappointing statement and one that I would say is just the one that they use all the time. Look, if there was real cultural change, then why is it that 85% of the Met is still white, 77% of the Met is male. And what they refused to do, Baroness Casey's review was last year, Angelini report came out in 2024, this year and it describes how Wayne Cousins was able to flourish if it was a changed organisation then why was it in 2023 that when Baroness Casey did her review that some of the most horrendous stories came out of what people were experiencing today I've taught police officers young police officers I mentor a great many police officers across the country. And they will tell you that things haven't changed.

Now, I mean, let's be fair here. Things policing has changed. Society's changed. Policing is very good at changing technical things. So how they deal with hate crime, how the family liaison officers. And there's various things that have changed, but they're all technical aspects of changing things. The real cultural change hasn't taken place. have put out a statement only, I think, on the 20th, where they said that they withdraw their support from the National Race Action Plan because there hasn't been any progress

and it's still a toxic, very toxic working environment. Let us, and you mentioned Wayne Cousins there, and people may remember he was sentenced to a whole life term for the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard. But I want to turn back to you. Your name, as I said, when you came in, is Nusret. You weren't called by your name from when you started. I found that shocking. I found lots of parts of your book shocking, actually.

Yeah, I was asked what my English name was and I was called Nijit. And now my name is the most simplest name that, you know, it's not correct. And so the interesting thing is, so that was when people gave me an English name. But then I was misnamed as I went on in my career. And by that, I mean that if there were two Asian police, female police officers in the same room, each of us would get called the other's name. And yet we don't even look like each other. And we're very different. And there were only about three Asian women, if you like, towards the higher ranks. And so starting off from getting a different name to

being misnamed, it just gives you that culture. And that still happens today. One other aspect which struck me was that you were often sent out on patrol by yourself because you hadn't gelled with others where you were working. Well, I was othered. I don't think others, they didn't want me because they saw me as different. Yes, and I don't mean that in any way blaming you for it, but I'm just saying that you were not within that team. Yeah. You would be othered, as you say.

But that led to you by yourself overnight on patrol. Yeah, and do you know what? It's things like that which I now look back and I think, wow, did I actually do that? But those things made me more determined. They made me more resilient because I would say, well, you know, you're not going to beat me and I'm going to show you. And this is how, you know, people of colour and women, that how we function is that we become stronger. We want to prove ourselves. We're working harder, wanting to be better and showing that you can't defeat me.

And that's how I survived. I stayed on the main road, I've got to say. But yeah, it was a scary time. But you have had a fantastic career. You've worked in some very challenging areas from counter-terrorism to undercover policing. But also you talk a lot about the Boys Club, as you see it within the Metropolitan Police. But also there were female cliques, white female cliques.

Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, I mean, I've named them the mean girls of the Met, but they exist in policing. So these cliques are particularly of certain women that come from certain privileged backgrounds, public school education, and so they form a club. We concentrate, we focus a lot on the old boys network, but I think since the beginning of time, there's been what I say, the mean girls or the white female clique, and they're not all white females. You won't find, you know, a white female that went to comprehensive school,

working class or women of colour, because women of colour in the workplace usually are invisible. So you won't find any of that. But these cliques, they help a group of their own and they help them to progress. They help them to whatever support they need. But that leaves a proportion of women without any support and that don't have the same networks. And if you're not part of either of those clubs, then you're pretty much on your own. But you did progress through the ranks, which would perhaps contradict what you're saying in some ways. Well, it doesn't because I was never a part of a club. I've had to battle my way at every stage of promotion, which was the most, I mean,

it's one of the hardest battles that I've had in policing. So I did it on my own merit. And that's what I was trying to say to you that I don't want to belong to a club where people are giving me an unfair advantage. I've never had an unfair advantage. I've always had to work hard. I've had to work on my merit. And every time I went for promotion, I was knocked back. And then if I was knocked back, I just tried harder whereas other people who belong to those clubs sail through and I'm sure that your listeners will recognise that in their

workplace that there's always these clubs and you know they have their career paths mapped out whereas you have to fight yourself to map out your career path. And why were you like that do you think particularly when it wasn't the dream that you always wanted to be a police officer.

What kept you there? Do you know, so many times when I was really knocked down and I was battle-weary and bruised, I would say, that's it. I'm not coming back. I'm leaving. But I would just get up the next day and I'd be more resilient and I'd be like,

no, I'm going to prove myself. I can do this. It's a job I love. And when it comes to a job that you love, and there's so many, as you've described, so many fantastic things that I've done in my career, I became more motivated. And the biggest thing that really pushed me was, why are the racists and the misogynists going to win? And you're the one that's going to be unemployed when actually they need to be tackled. It's the system. And that's what actually kept me going. You eventually did quit in 2020. How easy was it to walk away, to hand over all those things of forms of identification, et cetera, that you had worked so hard to get? Do you know, it was one of the worst times, I think, in my life. I stood there for a long time crying.

It was quite unceremonious how I had handed my warrant card because usually you go to accommodation ceremony and I didn't get to do that. To hand that over in such an unceremonious way because I was supposed to meet somebody very high up to kind of have a cup of tea and hand it over. But that individual cancelled at the last minute and said that her staff officer would meet me on one of the floors at Scotland Yard by the lifts to take my warrant card and I just couldn't hand it over and it was totally

overwhelming because I stood there and I still get emotional when I'm talking about it with just these streams of tears and we me and the staff officer just stood there with just a Mexican standoff because he was trying to get hold of my card and I just couldn't hand it over and eventually you know and I was so embarrassed because I just kept crying and then eventually he was kind of saying kind of can I have that card and I handed it over and it was one of the most difficult decisions because it's so symbolic of who you you know being a police officer and it just everything came flooding back I think my whole career just went woof in front of me. I didn't leave because I was ready to leave because most people are happy to leave and they're going to go on to a new life.

So why did you leave? I left because it was of the hostility. And I'll give you an example. At that time, they were only about and the figures haven't really improved, but there were about, say, 10 or 11 black and Asian officers of superintendent rank, and over half of them were under investigation. These were my friends. I saw their lives being turned, ripped apart. And, you know, Baroness Casey in a review tells you that if you're black purely for the colour of your skin you're 81% more likely to get a misconduct against you and more likely to have a

sanction from an unsubstantiated complaint and you know you had a big target on your back if you're black or Asian the working environment was so hostile hostile and that it was starting to affect my mental health in a way that I just felt, no, there's too big a price to pay. Because it's interesting because it's 30 years later and you had gone through so much over the decades, but it came to a point that you decided to leave. There may be young black or Asian women listening to this who from your stories might be put off of going into the force. What would you say?

I would say I wouldn't stop anybody not joining because, you know, you can have a fantastic career. But what I will say is understand the realities of policing. You will face racism. You will face sexism, misogyny. And if you're from the LGBTQ plus community, you will face homophobia. So go with your eyes wide open. And my advice, keep them open. That was Nusret Maytab, her book Off the Beat, My Life as a Brown Muslim Woman in the Met, is out now.

My next guest is an author. And she's author of the Sunday Times bestseller, The Last Act of Love. That is a painful, beautiful, uplifting memoir about the life and death of her brother, Matty. But now Cathy Rensenbrink has a second novel out. This is called Ordinary Time. And it gives us a window into the life of Anne. She is a reluctant vicar's wife grappling with ideas of marriage and responsibility, as well as the more mundane parts of parish life, like washing the altar cloths, for example.

Well, Cathy joins me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome. It's lovely to be here. Why a vicar's wife as the central character? I've always been really fascinated by vicar's wives. My aunt was a vicar's wife. I used to go and stay with her when I was a girl. And I was always very interested in the way that my uncle had to be everything to everyone in the church. And then later on in the house, he would be a bit tired, a little bit grumpy. So I think even from a really young age, I was interested in that notion of being on stage and off stage.

Kind of street angel, house devil? That kind of thing, I think. What people have to be like in a public world and then how they retreat into a private space. And they lived in this place called Cemetery Lodge. It was beautiful. It was freezing cold. There were mice. She wasn't allowed to kind of complain about anything. Well, she felt that she shouldn't complain about anything. She didn't want to complain about anything. And so I think everything I saw then at a young age just

lodged this interest in me. And it's carried on. It's so interesting. So this is a young girl that is watching this life play out in a vicarage. But really with Anne, the protagonist, and I don't know how much of your aunt is in Anne or not, but many have said this, I'm not just the only one,

that you have really illustrated a lot about the inner life of a middle-aged woman. I hope so. And I think that the church setting ramps it up a bit. And there's a very specific nature of being married to someone who has a vocation. But actually, I think a lot of the territory is familiar for a lot of women who made choices. Certainly Anne really wanted to have a child. She'd had lots of fairly disastrous relationships.

She meets the vicar he's nice he's kind she thinks this is going to be it fast forward you know 12 years and she's really wondering almost like what what she's done kind of why why why how did i end up here and what am i going to do about it and then very much caught in this thing of this he's not bad enough to leave is he this isn't a bad enough situation to try to get out of. And I know lots of people who feel like that. The good enough marriage? The good enough marriage. Or is it the not so bad marriage?

Or the, well, you know, we shouldn't, any wanting anything else anyway, it's just being too affected by romantic comedies. You know, life's not a novel. It's, you know, everything's hard. I should just put up with it, that kind of thing. But I was fascinated with that put up with it, the responsibility, the duty. You might have heard, we've had a number of listeners get in touch this morning because Anne in the book feels it's her

duty or responsibility to stay with her husband, the vicar, whose name is Tim, even if she doesn't want to. And there are other examples of women who put their duty to their partners or their children before their own happiness. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think people feel like that, don't they? I'm not making any comment

on whether or not people should feel like that. No, it's more exploring it. But I do feel that they do. And I find it really interesting. I find it really interesting. And I mean, some men do as well. But I think I just love, I love knowing people's secrets.

I really like it when people talk to me about their lives. And I love it when people talk to me about their inner lives. It is that thing, isn't it? Everybody behaving in a particular way when they're being observed. But what do they really feel?

What are the secrets of their hearts? And I like eavesdropping people. I've eavesdropped on a lot of women talking to each other about their marriages in cafes. I'm also guilty as far as... It's just fascinating, isn't it? It's what I really want. I love the kind of... And so often the conversation

follows the same sort of tone. So they basically kind of like get into what he's done that's so annoying. And then at the end they'll say, anyway, it could be worse. And they're kind of like coming back to he's done that's so annoying. And then at the end, they'll say, anyway, it could be worse. And they're kind of like coming back to this situation. Well, a lot of people will be in a lot worse situation than me and I should feel grateful for what I've got.

And he's not awful and he doesn't hit me or doesn't, you know, shout at me. So maybe this is, you know, so it's that kind of almost like that subtle heartbreak. Lives of quiet desperation. Subtle heartbreak. What a term, Cathy. But it's about the why peoplebreak, what a term, Cathy. But it's about the why people stay, I think, as well, that fascinates you and that you're exploring in a way. You have said, looking back,

that this book is also about loneliness and loneliness within a marriage, which is meant to be one of the closest connections, I suppose, that many people have in their lives. Yeah, I think so. And in that way that I think writers quite often don't know what they're doing while they're doing it. It was only a few days ago that I realised, oh, I've written this whole book and I've now seen, I've now realised. Gosh, I felt it from page one. Yeah, I know. I don't know why I didn't know it was my subject, but I've only just realised that really it's a book about loneliness. And it's a book about a woman who for various reasons has always felt lonely, has always felt a bit of a drift, and who thought she would fix that. She thought that she would

fix her loneliness by finding a partner, by having a family. But actually, she kind of hasn't really. And then, and I do think there's something about, I think the loneliness of being in a not very good marriage is considerable. There's something about when you've got something that other people want like lots of people might want that or might think that's good but then from within it as well people can never really say that if you are putting up with it I think people never really feel that they can then say that's what they're doing so that can make people feel a bit sort of insincere as well or inauthentic. So I think it's a very lonely place to be.

And of course, you can't, especially if you're kind of slightly putting up with someone for the sake of the children as well. You then can't be honest about that to those children. So those relationships that are very important also, I think, can have this sort of inauthentic tinge to them. So the loneliness actually increases you know what i was struck by though there is a character her brother stephen um which there is such warmth between them and i mentioned of course your book that you talked about caring for your brother who sadly died and i'm sorry for your loss on that but i was thinking about it, reading it, that that relationship between siblings is not always given the same importance or significance within society as that with a

partner. Yeah, I think, again, as a society, we are obsessed by romantic partnership, aren't we? We're completely obsessed with it, even though now half of people get divorced, even though the world is full of evidence that actually it's a very difficult thing to do to live intimately and exclusively with one person. But we're utterly obsessed with that. And then people think they're a failure if they can't do it. Whereas often what you might have is you might have very rich relationships with other people. And of course, I am interested in sibling bonds because I adored my brother and then I don't have him anymore. So there was probably a fairly chunky bit

of wish fulfillment in writing this beautiful, this beautiful sibling relationship for my heroine, which again, I'm fascinated with that as well. I love it when people talk to me about their close relationships with their, you know, when adults talk to you about their close relationships with their siblings. I'm talk to you about their close relationships with their siblings I'm basically really interested in everybody's relationships I think and what we do you know I think a lot of people I mean I think I

run with a very high degree of like existential aching loneliness and then I try to fix that in ways that are sometimes good and sometimes not so good tell me a little bit more about that I just think it's a sort of a default way of being in a way that this is an anxiety that I must do something to change the way that I feel, which is just often a bit lonely and sad if there aren't other people around. Of course, it's what reading does. I think, you know, I've always been a huge bookworm. And I think a lot of that is because reading is a way of not being lonely while you are alone. But I was about to ask, and does writing do this? Because this is only your second novel.

The others were nonfiction. And does that help? Is that cathartic? More than nonfiction? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely something about, I think I have this great yearning to connect. So I think I'm always looking to connect with human beings but then sometimes that doesn't necessarily go the way I think it will or I find that quite tricky as well um and I think probably all of my writing really

is I'm seeking to connect with other people I'm basically saying this is how this is how I see the world this is what I'm making of it here you go what do you think you know and I like that connection I love it when people tell me I really like hearing from readers I like to know what they made of it as well it feels like a conversation opener I'm not saying this is how it is I'm right I'm just saying I've noticed this what do you reckon? Very briefly I know we've more to talk about but there is a man that Anne is tempted by and I wonder are you trying to show that the grass isn't always greener or kind of exploring that part of marriage? Maybe, I don't know. Again, I'm not making any moral judgments about her or indeed about anyone else. I do think that if you are lonely, just someone who laughs

at your jokes and cares about your problems and is interested in what you've got to say can be very seductive and that kind of almost is possibly especially in midlife that's really what you want like just to be feel heard which again can happen with friends it doesn't have to be a romantic Seductive, such a good word as well

of course it is because it is Cathy Rensenbrink thank you so much Ordinary Time is published tomorrow I just want to read a comment to you while you're here with me, Cathy. Jilly says, when Nuala asked the question, have you ever not faced responsibility?

I shouted no so loudly that I frightened the cat. Sometimes I wish I could shirk responsibility, but I've always felt there have not been any other options. I'm so glad because I feel I can live with myself even though it has often been difficult.

That's the connection right there, isn't it? I just love that woman. That's Gilly having the last word on Woman's Hour. I'll see you on Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. For years, a witness's evidence has been locked away. I've seen the dark side.

He warned a chemical is coming. It's a silent killer. And that he was a target. Forced into a witness protection programme. We're Dan Ashby and Lucy Taylor, two investigative journalists, joined by the Hollywood star Michael Sheen. Do you think someone's going to try and kill us? From BBC Radio 4, an unsettling investigation into a chemical secret unravels.

They don't have any record of him. What? Listen now to Bury the Last Witness on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.