Woman's Hour - Ofcom Child Safety Codes, TikTok vicar, Exclusion zones

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

This morning, the UK regulator Ofcom released its Children's Safety Codes. These are the regulations that platforms will have to follow to protect young users and abide by the Online Safety Act. Platforms will have three months to carry out a risk assessment and bring the codes into effect. Ofcom can start enforcing the regulations from July. The most significant aspect is the requirement for strong age verification. Anita Rani hears from Baroness Beeban Kidron, founder of Five Rights, an international NGO working with and for children for a rights-respecting digital world, and Ian Russell, Chair of the Molly Rose Foundation. Ian’s daughter Molly took her life at the age of 14 after being exposed to harmful content online.A new report says 91% of organisations in the UK’s women and girls sector have seen a rise in demand for their services, but only 52% expect to be able to meet it. The report - from Rosa, the UK fund for women and girls - also found that 1.8% of charitable giving goes to women's charities although they represent at least 3.5% of charities. Anita is joined by Rebecca Gill, Executive Director at Rosa UK fund for women and girls and Cecily Mwaniki, Director of Utulivu, who support Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic and refugee women, girls, and their families in Reading.According to campaigners, people who have committed murder, manslaughter or stalking offences should be forced to live in restricted areas after being released from prison on licence. Anita is joined by BBC journalist Gemma Dunstan and law-change campaigners Rhianon Bragg and Dianna Parkes. 29-year-old Pippa White shares her daily life as a vicar to millions of viewers on TikTok. She joins Anita to discuss being a young woman in the Church, making religion fun and connecting with a younger audience.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

BBC Sounds music radio podcast. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It's just been in the headlines. Ofcom has announced its children's safety code to try and keep young people safe online. Well, this morning we'd like to hear your reaction. Do you think what's been announced will help? Will it work practically? What steps do you take to try and protect children from the dangers of being online in your own home?

How do you monitor what they're looking at? Do you even know what they're looking at? How concerned are you? What can parents and carers do? Maybe you're at a loss as to what to do or maybe you have advice that you'd like to share this morning. I think it's really important that we hear from you this morning about what's happening in your household so get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the programme by going to our website. You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour and you can WhatsApp the programme and if you feel you'd like to you can even voice note us, it's 03 700 100 444. Also on the programme, why if charities and organisations specifically for women and girls are in more

demand is there less money in the pot to help fund them? And Reverend Pippa White, the cool young vicar reaching out to a new generation about the word of God via TikTok. All of that and your thoughts and opinions on everything here on the programme this morning. That text number once again is 84844. But first, this morning, the UK regulator Ofcom released its children's safety codes. These are the rules that sites and apps will have to follow to protect young users and abide by the Online Safety Act, which was introduced in 2023. Platforms will have three months to carry out a risk assessment and bring the children's safety codes into effect.

Ofcom can start enforcing the regulations from July. The most significant aspect is the requirement for strong age verification to prevent children from accessing porn and other dangerous content. Tech companies will also be expected to ensure that children are not pushed towards this kind of material through social media algorithms. Well earlier this morning Dame Melanie Dawes, Ofcom Chief Executive, spoke to the Today programme and explained their approach. Age checks is the first step because unless you know where children are you can't give them a different experience to adults which is what we need to see. So what we're saying

to companies is they must be highly effective. They can use all sorts of verifications now, you can use digital IDs, you can use credit cards, you can use biometrics, but companies will need to assure us that they work so that they can be really sure that they know where children are and then serve them that very different experience with much much safer algorithms, no pornography, no suicide and self-harm material. How do you feel about this? That text number once again 84844. Well I'm joined by Baroness Beben Kidron, founder of Five Rights, an international NGO working with and for children for rights, respecting digital world and Ian Russell, chair of the Molly Rose Foundation.

Ian's daughter, Molly, took her life at the age of 14 after being exposed to harmful content online. Morning to both of you. Thank you for joining us. This is a question to both of you, but I'm going to come to you first, Ian. So the introduction of the Children's Safety Codes, it's been referred to as a big day in the fight for better protection for children, possibly a watershed moment, a game changer as well it's been described up, is it? There are all the things that it should have been. This has been a long time coming, it was about five years going through Parliament. Dozens, hundreds of

MPs and parliamentarians spearheading the passage through Parliament, including Beban Kidron, who was a real cheerleader in the Lords. Ofcom have had about 18 months now to implement it and it should be all of those things. We should be celebrating today, but instead I I'm gonna have to say that I'm dismayed that we're inching along a road that we should be sprinting along sprinting along in order to get to the safety levels that we need for our children. I think it's all possible but at the moment we're moving far too slowly. Dismayed, why? Where does it fall short for you?

It falls short because it's a complicated piece of legislation and Ofcom, it's a framework act as I understand it and Ofcom as an independent regulator have implemented the act as they see fit and taken advice from the platforms, from people with a lived experience like me and from children themselves and others in society. But they've sat very safely within the middle of that framework at a recent Westminster Hall debate. A junior minister, junior government minister admitted that Ofcom's codes of practice were drafted in order to avoid judicial review. Now that's not the job of the Online Safety Act. The job of the Online Safety Act is to protect children

and prevent tragedies like the one that happened to my daughter, Molly. Beben, is it going far enough? No, I mean, listen, largely I agree with Ian that it could be better. I think I want to take one step back and say, today is an important day because the very narrow things that offcom have done Will make a difference and I think it's important for parents out there

and indeed for all of us who work so hard to get here to recognize that on the Particular area, you know of dangerous content porn self-harm, suicide, eating disorder, and how the algorithms serve it, Ofcom have made some steps. So having said that, I have to echo what Ian's saying, which is such disappointment that Ofcom have really seen themselves as sort of, you know, trying to balance the interests of the platform with children. And all of us who have given them these powers said, don't balance the interests of platforms with children. Make children safe and particularly create environments in which they could flourish.

And I think that that's the point I would like to make is that actually the adult world and the political world has responsibility for children to develop, you know, and flourish into decent and happy adults full of well-being. It's not just this sort of absence of harm. And I think you can see that in the codes because they have taken a sort of an incredible stance of identifying risks and then failing to give

the companies mitigations for the risks they've identified. How does that work? And I think I have to double down on what Ian's saying is they should be taking these companies to court and setting the bar in the courts. Well, we heard a clip from Dame Melanie Dawes, who's the chief executive of Ofcom earlier, but we don't have Ofcom here to respond to these specific criticisms. But let's talk about what they have announced and get into a little bit more because the main interventions seem to be age restriction

and changing the way that children and teenagers are targeted by social media algorithms. How do you think the tech companies are going to tackle that practically? Well there are technologies that have been available for some time now that have not been employed by the platforms. So in that sense, if Ofcom can compel the platforms to better age verify their users, that's a step forward. You need to know who are children before you can protect children. Of course, I think you have to bear in mind it's also a parallel thing that these companies, effectively advertising platforms, that harvest the data of all of their users and they know, they know the age of the people on their platforms because it's in their interest

to do so, to suit their business model. So they know these things already but at least Ofcom are saying that that's now a necessity if they're to run platforms in the UK. Beban, they're enormously powerful international companies. What's going to incentivise them to make these changes in the UK. Beban, they're enormously powerful international companies. What's going to incentivise them to make these changes in the UK? Well, I think the only thing that's going to incentivise them is tough regulation and laws. And I really want to just pick up on one thing, which is that it seems that we keep on starting from where we are now, as if that is a given. But these are 100% engineered services. Yeah, there is nothing that is natural about them. They are literally human-made and engineered.

So actually a lot of the things that we're calling for for kids is just switch it off. I don't mean the whole thing, but literally default settings that create high privacy, default settings that don't actually chase kids to pay more attention, default settings that don't actually privilege material that is unsuitable.

And I think, again, you can see the failure in the approach when I was at an event yesterday in which we were talking about the learning outcomes for children, and they're going, they're absolutely tanking because they can't concentrate. And last year's word was doom scroll. But where have Ofcom done anything about the extended use, the addictive loops?

They've done very, very little of what, with the powers that we've given them. And I absolutely understand it was an imperfect act, you know, but there was so much more to do. And I will also say that earlier this year, the Secretary of State said it was an uneven act and he would take action to fill the gaps and he has failed to do so so far. So it's not just the regulator, it's also government.

Ian, what would you like to say? I just think absolutely, I mean an act of this complexity was never going to be perfect but the hard work that so many people put into making a piece of UK legislation is certainly not in vain. The foundations are strong. The first thing that needs to happen is Ofcom need to be less timid and they are an independent regulator so the mechanism by which you might compel them to do that is difficult. But the Secretary of State has shown he's quite on side of tech and I'm losing trust in him in that respect.

So I think the time is for the Prime Minister for number 10 to say that they will tackle this 75% of parents we surveyed, the Molly Rose Foundation surveyed, said they want the introduction of a stronger online safety act to do better in terms of protecting their children. So if the Prime Minister were to champion this cause he'd have parents cheering him on across the country and there are some minor things that could be done like an overarching duty of care, a duty of candour and also a measure by which the effectiveness as of Ofcom as a regulator or for that matter the platforms and Souths, a reduction in harm, a target for them to achieve because at the

moment they have no targets. We don't have anyone from the government to respond to this but we've talked about Ofcom, we've talked about the government, we've talked about the state, we should also talk about parents as well, because how much should parents be relying on Ofcom and what can they do? And we're getting messages in from some of our listeners and please keep them coming through, I'm going to read some of them out in a moment and get your reaction to those, Ian.

But Beben, what can parents do within their own homes? Well, listen, I think that any single parent is a very unequal fight between you and a company that is literally spending billions to keep your kid online. So I do want to make that point. And I reiterate what I said, which, and agree with Ian, that actually there are things we can do at a regulatory level and at a legal level.

But for parents themselves, I definitely think that the advice is to understand what your kids are doing. Don't try and take away the phone, but do be prepared to parent. And what I mean by that is just because they're quick with their fingers, it doesn't mean that they have the wisdom of ages and it doesn't really matter, you know, if you're right or wrong.

My house, my rules. And the biggest thing I say for parents is put down your own phone. So many kids that I work with, we have at Five Rights 500 youth ambassadors all around the world. Their number one thing is for their parents to put their phone down and talk to them and look them in the eye. Their number two thing is for the tech companies to deal with them in an age-appropriate way. And I think that in this conversation, perhaps the people who we've missed out here is the tech companies. They could fix this really, really fast without legislation for corporate responsibility reasons, and they are not doing so. And if they have not done so, then we have to say

that the law has to be tougher. That's really the conversation we're having here. There's no nicey-nicey. It has to be a rule. Ian, what do you think parents can do realistically? I think all the things that Beben said are really important and it's trying to keep a channel of communication going between the generations, between parents and children and perhaps during teenage years that's a challenge, perhaps it's always been a challenge the teenage years and that can be difficult but if you encourage from the earliest of ages to talk about digital life, so when you put the phone down and you look them in the eye and you talk to them, talk about what life. So when you put the phone down and you look them in

the eye and you talk to them, talk about what's going on on each of your online lives and talk about the problems that you encounter because then you create an atmosphere of trust where children feel like they can tell you if they've come across something that's harmful or bad and you won't judge them for it. If they tell you, you can help them to solve the problem that they've encountered. This is really good advice Ian. I'm going to read a message that's come in from someone who wishes to remain anonymous. My 13 and a half year old granddaughter added someone suggested on a social media app last Saturday to her contacts. Immediately a two-way conversation ensued. He suggested he'd come to see her, then sent her a pornographic photo.

Thankfully, she's able to tell her mother about things like this. And this is despite her mother having controls on her telephone, which will end when she becomes 14. Pibin, last month TikTok announced a new wind down tool that will automatically turn on if a TikTok user under 16 is on the app after 10pm interrupting the for you feed with a full screen takeover and playing calming music. The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology Peter Kyle said he would be watching very carefully this move to limit usage for under 16s after 10pm. Do you think curfews on social media are helpful?

Listen, I think every interruption to the sort of endless doom scroll is excellent. And I will say that almost a decade ago, Skyve, a Bear Children's app, did exactly that. They gave the app a bedtime, not the child, but the app, so that the child was used to the app not being available after seven o'clock at night or whenever the parents set it. So absolutely that is fantastic but I think we mustn't look just for silver bullets. You know I love technology, what it can do. I think there are positive uses of it, you know, within families and within all sorts of settings. And so I think one of the things that we all need to do is actually use it in positive ways, put it to bed, have dinner without our phones, you know.

And I do want to say one thing on the parents, don't have devices in bedrooms, period, yeah? It's a tough rule, but it's a really excellent rule. If everybody charges up downstairs, that's a good idea. Ian, you're nodding, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think one of the things that happened in Molly's case was that her phone was kept on her bedside table.

One of the reasons we did that is because she was the youngest of three and her older sisters before her had done that simply because there were alarm clock apps in what were then dumb phones, not smartphones at all, six years earlier. But because we'd set that precedent and technology changes so fast in what was a very different time even if it only was six years earlier, we kept phones on tables. Now that allowed 24-7 access to Molly from the outside world, from the digital world. And if I could go back in time now, that would be one of the things, the first thing I think I'd probably change. And someone has been in touch to say no screens

behind closed doors, especially for younger children, younger teenagers, you might not be popular but your child will be safer. Another one from Susan saying if you give a child an internet enabled phone they will get into onto social media. Kids under 16 only need a text and a phone. They waste enough time texting. Judy, so much reaction to this, keep them coming in by the way, 84844. Judy said I'm certainly no expert in online safety but the platform seemed to remove music on posts very quickly because of copyright but struggled to monitor life-threatening information for our children. Follow the money, she says. Where does the campaign go from here? This is to both of you. Ian.

I think we'll just keep campaigning. It's interesting that Facebook whistleblowers like Archie Obejah, Now he worked for Facebook looking after the safety of people online in the early sort of 2010s and on. He says that they were very concerned in those days about it and have stepped backwards from it and that's only one ex-employee of Facebook. But he estimates that they within three to six months could make a huge difference if they wanted to, and that they obviously don't want to. So it is the job of the regulator, it is the job of the legislators to make that change. So I think we'll keep campaigning.

We'll ask for the simple changes. We'll keep saying to the Prime Minister, please lead this charge because people want you to. And I don't think it's that far away if we all keep pulling together. I'd like to thank you both for speaking to me this morning, Baroness Beben-Kidron and Ian Russell. Thank you very much and I must say that if you've been affected by anything you've heard today then you can go to the BBC Action Line website where you'll find links to support. We have got a statement from Metta who say we share the goal of

keeping teens safe online and recently introduced new teen accounts which provide built-in protections for teens, limiting who's contacting them, the content they can see, plus remind us to leave the app overnight and after an hour a day. Teens in the UK have automatically been moved into these enhanced protections and under-16s need a parent's permission to change them. We believe teens deserve consistent protections across all the different apps they use, not just our platforms. That's why we support calls for app stores or operating systems to verify a child's age and obtain parental approval before teens under 16 can download an app. Thank you, Ian. Thank you, Beban, once again. 84844 is the number to

text. Keep your thoughts coming in on anything you hear on the programme. Now, an estimated 7,400 registered charities and 300 community interest companies in the UK are run by and for women and girls, accounting for at least 3.5% of charities. According to a new report out today, these organisations are struggling with the double whammy of increased demand but diminishing resources. The report, titled Underfunded, Underresourced and Under the Radar, the state of the women and girls social sector, is a comprehensive survey of over 200 organisations covering service demand, funding and staffing, as well as hopes for the future.

Well to discuss the findings and what it means for the vulnerable women and girls who need these services, I'm joined by Rebecca Gill, Executive Director of ROSA, the UK Fund for Women and Girls that commissioned the report, and from Sisley Maniki, Director of Utolivu that supports black, Asian, minority, ethnic and refugee women, girls and their families in Reading. Welcome to both of you. Rebecca, I'm going to come to you first. Let's kind of first of all understand the kinds of services that these charities and organisations offer. Yeah, they kind of span the whole life of women and girls really across the United Kingdom.

So a lot of them are offering mental health and wellbeing-being support, a lot of doing face-to-face work around sexual violence and domestic abuse, campaigning for girls rights and women's rights, maternity, pregnancy, menopause. So really, you know, expansive range of face-to-face services as well as campaigning and influencing work to get, you know, legislation to be different as well to support women and girls. And why is there a rise in demand? What's happening? There's a couple of things happening there. One is that we're seeing a rolling back of the state so there's been these severe cuts to public services in the last 15 years and so charities have consistently been forced to step in and offer more support,

but there hasn't been a requisite rise in funding. And we're also seeing a kind of lack of priority among funders, statutory funders and the philanthropic sector, on the issue of women and girls and prioritising funding for those organisations. And so the kind of, a lot of women's and girls organisations are seeing more women and more women with more complex needs and that's you know putting huge strain on the services they offer. And more women and girls coming forward because they know they can because conversations are taking place more largely in

society. Certainly that will also be an issue and that what we're talking about is very small organizations often very trusted in their communities and so as they build that trust other women talk about them and those women then turn to those services but these are services that might well have once been delivered by the state around housing or rights or benefits support or something like that, mental health support, physical health support and now it's being expected that the charity sector will deliver that support. It's interesting isn't it because the government have a mission statement to

half violence against women and girls in the decade so you wonder what is happening when it comes to funding. Absolutely and this is, we've said this to the government as well as that we are very very on board with their mission but at the moment women's and girls organizations get less get 1.8% of all charitable funding goes to those organizations you cannot meet that government target with this kind of funding crisis these organizations are in a perilous state. Do they not prioritize women and girls and the work that's being done? We don't believe that they do and we don't see any evidence that they do. Neither statutory funders so the

government or local government but also or the philanthropic sector either. It just isn't prioritizing the work done by women and girls organizations. I guess we should put this into a slightly wider context as well because there is another report that shows overall there is a 65% rise in demand for services in the social sector across the board. So there is a general increase. What's driving that? Again I think you'll be seeing a rolling back of the state so more demand on the charitable sector but what we're seeing in the women and girls sector is that nine out of ten of them are saying

that there's been an increase in demand for their services compared to 65% of the wider charity sector. And women's and girls' organisations started from a lower base and we have to remember that, that they've always been small, they've often struggled for funding. Rosa was set up 17 years ago to ensure that there was more funding going to the women and girls sector and that's what our role is. We're a funder and a champion of the sector and we're always trying to channel money to the women and girls sector. Something that we should talk about is quite important to highlight that comes out of this report is that black and minoritised women's organisations face disproportionate challenges with funding and many of these groups focus as you've mentioned on the needs of the community they're in, vital resources in

those communities. Why do they tend to be neglected by mainstream services? Because they're more likely to be small and small charities really really struggle and to raise funding and then because they're small they stay small because people don't trust those small organizations to deliver. But we can't get away from the fact that the women and girls that those charities and organizations are supporting

will often have experienced profound racism, are more likely to experience poverty and deprivation. Many might have English as a second language. So those small charities are under strain because they get less money but what they're working, the women and girls they're working with, have higher and more complex needs. And it's a terrible place for black and minoritised led organisations, women's organisations to be put in. It's why the majority of ROSAs funding does go to black and minoritised led women's and girls organisations because we try to put

our funding where it's most needed and that is where the need is greatest. I'm gonna bring you in now Sisley because you run a small specialist organisation of up to 10 employees, Utilivu. These sorts of community-based organisations make up more than half of the women and girls sector. So tell us a bit about your organization and what you do and who you support. Yes, we are a very small community organizations, all focused on supporting ethnic minority or minorized groups or women. And our work is very, very volunteer-led with very, very minimal funding that comes through.

And our work is based on the lived experience of most of the women that we support. And that lived experience is so powerful in the sense that it almost traumatizes them when they talk about those experiences. However, our forums are based on safety. We provide that safe space that people or women can feel vulnerable enough, but also safe enough to come and share their experiences, but from a point of strength. So confidence is built. They are more likely or what we have observed over the years, bearing in mind that we celebrated 20 years last year. We have observed women go through the education system,

having left their home countries as professionals, coming here. And because of the issues that Rebecca has very nicely articulated there, the confidence goes. So we've been able to build that confidence back. And so far, we have seen women who have started their businesses and learning. Others have gone into education and they have their doctorates. But then again, it's how we work with those women to come back and empower other women who have not reached that point yet.

These women would be victims of domestic abuse, female genital mutilation. They have really battled with their families in many, many ways. And important work and well done for being able to do it for as long as 20 years. How are you funded now? How is this funding threat affecting you and your organisation? We are hugely affected and luckily Rota has been around to support us in hard-rocks. And since COVID we were able to benefit from their funding which has helped us sustain our work for the last three years, which was stopped by the R Funding for three good years. We haven't really thought about stopping what we do because of the Racko Funding, but science is now under the red, come July, because Orosa has gone for the Rotary Fund, it's going in July. But what do we do with the good work that we have done? Women are now,

what do we do with the good work that we have done? Women are now can go out and talk and support themselves. We have other Muslim groups, women to women talk, all that is coming to an end. But where do they go? How many people work within your organisation? At the moment we have three permanent workers and seven part-time and the rest of them are volunteers. And something that comes up I'm sure you know this Rebecca is that when you're a tiny organisation like that, three permanent workers, how much time is taken up just going through the application process of finding the funding to keep yourselves going? Absolutely I think there's a really important kind of misunderstanding about when organizations are small it's very hard for them to move from being sort of survival to thriving and that's what

the funding crisis does is they lurch from crisis to crisis and as Cecily's talked about the work her organization does is absolutely critical for the women and girls that she works with. For a lot of these very small organisations, they are actually not just working with individuals but they are driving systemic change. They are constantly dismantling the systems that harm women and girls and we need them to be well funded so they can continue to do that work because we are, you know, why does society really loses if organisations like Utolivu are endlessly endlessly struggling to raise that kind of money?

So what do you want to see happen in the next year, in the next few years? We want to see much greater priority put on funding for women and girls organisations and recognising that small organisations drive systemic change. And I think my most kind of critical message is the women and girls sector is vital and it always has been. Every single progress in women and girls lives in this country and around the world has been driven by women organising and mobilising. has been driven by women organizing and mobilizing. That's what the women and girls sector does. It does it with very little money and virtually no

support and it cannot continue if we're going to protect women and girls rights and deliver services that they need. And Cicely, what's going to help you continue to work for the next 20 years? help you continue to work for the next 20 years? Well, it's the hope that organisations like Roser, Rotary Funding are going to continue supporting us, but crucially, you know, finding partners who can buy in into the work that we do, but also empowering women more than ever before to be self sustained by connecting with other organisations. Yeah, because you're empowering women who need the help and need the support,

but you also need to be empowered as the women's group who are supporting those women in the first place. I'd like to thank you both for speaking to me on this topic. Rebecca Gill and Sisley Mwaneeke, thank you very much. 84844 is the number to text. We've actually had a statement from the Home Office. They've said, it's the mission of the government to halve violence against women and girls in a decade

and will not stop until we have a system that protects victims, supports their journey to justice, and holds perpetrators to account. The NHS and wider healthcare system has an important role in this goal. Healthcare professionals are often supporting domestic abuse victims, playing a vital role in supporting them to overcome trauma and rebuild their

lives. We are able to confirm funding for a range of organisations for the next financial year whose vital work will help us achieve our mission, building on our recent activity including domestic abuse protection orders, specialists in 999 control rooms and strengthening responses to spiking and stalking. We've also just referring back to our first item about Ofcom's new children's safety codes that were announced today. We spoke to campaigners Baroness Kidron and Ian Russell who don't think the new regulations go far enough.

Well we've just got a response from Ofcom who say, we are laying down more than 40 practical measures for tech firms to meet their duties under the Online Safety Act. These will apply to sites and apps used by UK children in areas such as social media search and gaming. This follows consultation and research involving tens of thousands of children, parents, companies and experts. The steps include preventing minors from encountering the most harmful content relating to suicide, self-harm, eating disorders and pornography. Online services must also act to protect children from misogynistic, violent, hateful or abusive material, online bullying and dangerous challenges. 84844 is our number to text.

In fact we've had a few of you getting in touch on the Children's Safety Bill. We've had a message here saying, I have a nine-year-old, nearly 10. I find it too technical to understand how to lock kids out of things on phones and computer games. I've just found her on my phone in a game that says it's safe, but the security guard was holding a gun.

Another message here saying, in my house, the internet closed down automatically at nine o'clock. No arguments, I made it automatic, it worked well. And Vanessa says, as a parent, I'm really, really uncomfortable with Big Tech owning my kids biometric data, allowing Big Tech to decide what kids watch online does not fill me with any sort of joy, instead porn, violent content, etc. should be opt in, no one needs that stuff. Keep your messages coming in. Now next Bank Holiday Monday,

we're going to be discussing mistakes on the program, a whole program dedicated to mistakes. Why do we hate making them? And what can we learn from them? We want to know about the mistakes that changed your life for good or bad. Maybe you caught the wrong train, which led you to find love in your life.

Or did a mistake at work end in a new career? Tell us about the mistakes that made you. You can get in touch in the usual way. It's 84844 is the text number. The WhatsApp number is 03700 100 444. Or you can email the program by going to our website. Now, currently, when the perpetrators of murder, manslaughter or stalking are released, their victims and the victims family can be placed under

something called an exclusion zone. This is supposed to prevent offenders from approaching those impacted by their actions. However, a group of victims are now calling for this system to be changed. They believe that these restrictions should be around the offender's location rather than theirs. BBC reporter Gemma Dunstan is on the line. She's been following the story. Also joining me is Rhiannon Bragg who was stalked and held hostage by her ex-partner and Diana Parks whose daughter Joanna Simpson was murdered by her husband Robert Brown in 2010. Both Diana and Rhiannon have direct experience of exclusion zones. I want to welcome you all to the programme. Gemma, I'm going to

come to you first though. Tell us about the current law around exclusion zones. What do they tend to be? When are they allocated and what crimes are they connected with? Yeah, well, many offenders are subject to a period of time of licence and there are conditions that are allocated to that. And one of licence and there are conditions that are allocated to that and one of them is this exclusion zone that we're talking about and it's often the body granting the release so maybe the parole board or the prison who are responsible for the terms of that licence. So commonly to see an exclusion zone implemented it would be where there's been an offence that involves violence or harassment and stalking and they also tend to be used with gang related violence as well to prevent offenders re-entering areas where the gang may be based but it's really worth

highlighting that once those license conditions end so can the exclusion zone. And how do they differ from a restraining order? Well that's that's a really good question because they both involve restricting someone's access but they are very different and there are lots of nuances but Well, that's a really good question because they both involve restricting someone's access, but they are very different and there are lots of nuances. But essentially, a restraining order restricts a person from engaging in certain actions. So contacting a person or approaching a person, whereas an exclusion zone, on the other hand, sort of prevents a person from being in a specific location. So whether that's a home, town, village or

a county for a defined period of time. So restraining order protects a sort of a named individual whereas exclusion zones works to restrict someone's access to a specific area. And what changes are being called for? Well I've spoken to multiple victims of stalking, families affected by homicide, manslaughter, murder who essentially want to see these exclusion zones flipped on their head. So instead of the victims given a zone to sort of live and work within, they want that zone put on the perpetrator

because they tell me that the current zones make them feel very trapped. As soon as they cross over that zone, they don't feel safe. Whereas they feel if the restrictions were put on the offender, it would allow them to travel more freely and to feel safer. Rhiannon, I'm going to come to you now because I'd like to hear about your own experience. What was it like? What is it like living in an exclusion zone? The person who offended against me was sentenced to nine and a half years, four and a half days in custody and then released February last year on licence.

And until the day before release, I had no idea what those licence conditions would be. So incredibly high anxiety. And there's one of the issues I have is the mental and physical health toll on victims because of how the current system runs. And I was told about the exclusion zone the day before, and in fact, he was given an exclusion zone of four counties, which I'm aware is significantly larger than many people are given. But still, despite that, I felt really restricted.

Whilst there was some sort of feeling of safety within that zone, actually, as soon as I crossed the border, I felt at high risk. And in fact, our perpetrator died earlier this year. And it was with that that I really realized quite how on edge, how anxious I still was and that the clock was ticking. I'd got four years left before these conditions had run out.

I'd, to a certain extent had to sacrifice my liberty for the offenders. I'd had to disclose all sorts of information. I had to justify where I go shopping, where the children were at school, where I might need to access for health appointments. I just absolutely feel that this should be flipped. Victims suffer enough and actually we're talking about a small number of really high-risk offenders who cause maximum harm and I strongly feel it's their liberties that should be limited. Can I ask what you felt when you heard the news that he'd died? Complete shock. Complete shock. It took a while to sink in. The following morning I

woke up and I couldn't put a word on what I felt. It was so foreign to me, I didn't know what to call it. And it came to me slowly that it was freedom. I'd forgotten what it felt like to be free. And we're coming up to nearly 13, sorry, nearly 12 years since this man has had a significant negative impact on myself. And it's not just me. More often than not, these perpetrators aren't just affecting one person. It wasn't just myself and my children, but actually people within the local community as well. So I made a point before release of asking probation what I could disclose to the local community and I was allowed to say he was excluded from one county. And the

relief from neighbours when I'd said that, it really is, it's extraordinary. It's extraordinary how much continued damage these people and this system currently do to victims. What about you Diana? What's the situation in terms of the exclusion zones for you and your family? Well you may remember Anita that my daughter was killed in 2010 and her offender, her husband, ex-stranged husband was given given a 26-year sentence, but it was a determinant sentence. So he was going to spend half in prison

and half on licence. Now I have to say that the half on licence, I just couldn't see working. We had to give exclusion zones, which were the whole of the Isle of Man, most of London, Wiltshire, Ascot. How on earth could they be monitored safely was my question right from the beginning. And I have to say that every time I've come up with talking about this,

I've spoke to Shabana Mahmood, the Minister of Justice. I spoke to Angela Rayner, I spoke to Sir Nick Deakin, I spoke to Alex Davies-Jones, who all told me the human rights of the prisoner. Now, which of his human rights are currently at risk by putting him in a restricted area, which was not an issue when he was in prison. Ultimately, we feel he should still be in prison, as he had a 26-year sentence. After bludgeoning my daughter to death with 14 blows to her head with a claw hammer, to us he is still a criminal. And Justin Russell, who was the inspector of probation, I will actually read what he actually said in 2023, that the probation service is struggling, chronic staff shortages and manageable workloads,

consistently weak in protecting the public. The supervision of people on probation isn't at the level it should be. And very sadly, Martin Jones, who replaced Justin Russell in 2024, has endorsed these findings. There's no quick fix as it takes three years to train a probation officer. How would it feel if the exclusion zones were placed around him rather than you and your family? This is what I've been campaigning for for ages and I'm told all the time is human rights. But you know what human rights has he that we the victims in fact his own children what about their human rights? They live in fear of him coming out. If he

was in a restricted area, he would be closely monitored. It would be very cost effective to just monitor him rather than all victims. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for every family who goes through the absolute fear of their offender coming out of jail. The total panic there is that you are not safe. And if he was in an area where he could be monitored very easily, much deeply than looking after all the victims, and we who've done nothing wrong would be allowed to not have an exclusion zone but to carry on our lives in the normal way. At the moment we're supposedly only supposed to feel safe in our exclusion zone so we're trapped. I'm going to Diana read out a statement that we've had

from the Ministry of Justice from a spokesperson who said victims must feel safe which is why any offenders released on license who break the rules face going back to prison they have to follow strict conditions such as curfews, exclusion zones that prevent them approaching their victims and restrictions on phone and internet use. Rihanna you've been meeting with MPs about this do you feel like it's been taken seriously in Westminster? In my opinion, like Diane and others, I've had the flag of the perpetrators' human rights put as a

hurdle. I think it very much should be taken seriously and I acknowledge there are legal hurdles to overcome but I expect any government, let alone one that wants the hard vogue, to address these hurdles. It's about putting the victim first, some sort of justice, safety to victims that might enable them to be able to to heal and to recover from the crimes and I think it's a change that would make such a fundamental difference to so many people who've been affected by crime. You heard about your programme earlier talking about the cost cuts to victim services. Well I strongly

believe that this would actually be cheaper to manage these offenders. I think it would be easier for the police. I think it would be less of a burden for probation. The technology already exists to make it possible and I think it's a change that, you know, we know the law is solid and it needs to be solid, but there's been so much learning about these offenders, about these offenses, their devastating impact. And we also know not all offenders can be rehabilitated. So the law needs to remain open to change

in recognition of that learning. You know, it needs to be solid, but not second-stone as I said. And if you think about the change that's happened in the last few years even, you know, so non-fatal strangulation has come in. Children living in a domestic abusive household are now considered victims in their own right. You know, the Domestic Abuse Act itself, so there's so much that's already gone on, it is a change that I strongly believe ought to happen. Well I'd like to thank you for coming on and talking to me this morning about it. Thank you Rhiannon Bragg, Diana Parks and the BBC reporter Gemma Dunstan. That text

number 84844. Now, the role of a priest in the Church of England involves teaching, preaching and celebrating the world of God. And for one vicar in Shropshire, she's been using a more modern method to do so. 29-year-old Reverend Pippa White has taken to TikTok to share her thoughts on Bible passages with her thousands of followers and to document her daily life both in and outside the church. Pippa joins me now. Good morning, Pippa. Pippa White Hey, good morning. Emma Watson I'm going to start by asking what made you want to become a vicar in the first place? How does one become a vicar? Oh sure, for me it was a bit of a bolt out of the blue,

to be honest with you. So it happened very hand in hand with my faith journey generally, because I was raised quite culturally Anglican, but I wouldn't say proper Christian. So it was once I got to uni I thought, well you know, I'll have a look at what all this church stuff is about really. And yeah, so I was kind of going to church but to be honest if I had something better to do I wouldn't go. And it was, I remember the conversation really distinctly, I was walking along with my then boyfriend because I did history as my undergrad and I didn't know what I wanted to do and I didn't want to go into teaching, I didn't want to go into archiving and I just thought what am I going to do with this arts degree and I mean my then boyfriend and I had talked through all the sensible options

and we'd you know descended into the ridiculous and he said oh you could be a plumber and I said oh plumber. And I said, Oh, I could be an astronaut. He said, Oh, you could be an engineer. I said, Oh, I could be a vicar. And there was this really weird, why on earth did I just say that? And yeah, and I just didn't seem to take it back. I can seem to put the lid back on the idea. There we go. It was the calling. It just came to you. It was genuinely, it was. So what sort of training did you have to undergo? Yes. So what happens is when you first approach a vicar or someone in the church saying,

you know, I've got this really funny feeling that I should be a vicar, you have to have at least 18 months of, it's called discernment. So regular meetings with a priest, often a priest who is, you know, has a job of encouraging vocations and others, and you talk through, okay, what does your sense of calling look like, but also, you know, the Church of England is an institution. What does it mean to work in an institution? Can you handle that stuff like this? And also just the realities of it all to make sure you really, you're going into it with your eyes open and so then after that because you have a series of

interviews you then have two to three years of academic training which can be residential, it can be you know weekends and evenings and then after that you have it's called a curacy so it's like an apprenticeship and so three to four years of on-the-job have, it's called a curacy. So it's like an apprenticeship. So three to four years of on the job training. Because it's that classic thing of at college you might learn the legalities of weddings, but it's very different to actually doing a wedding with 200 people looking at you. So yeah, and that's so it's, I mean, it's taken me about 10 years all in all. And then why did you decide to start posting on TikTok? Because that's why you've come to our attention, because your posts have gone viral, for a very good reason as well.

But when, whose idea was that? Oh, I have my sister squarely to blame for all of this. Yeah, so, I mean, we were both on TikTok, just normally scrolling. And she was saying, you know, you should really be a TikTok thicker. And I was thinking, oh, I don't know, I don't know. And she kept pushing the idea. And I moved parishes and I thought when I got to this parish, actually, you know what, maybe I'll give it a bit of a punt. And the rest is history, as they say, yeah.

A lot of your content is angled at young women in particular. Tell us a bit about it because lots of people listening might not have seen your TikTok content, so describe a bit. And why do you target young girls? Sure. I will say a lot of my content is a bit tongue in cheek. It's very funny. She's funny.

I have to put it out there. I find you funny. Yeah, it's a very particular brand. I think quite British humour I work on. Yeah, I think that's how my ministry works in general. Because as someone who came to faith as an adult, that's how I naturally function with other people is sort of like little comments and jokes in the high street rather than sort of going up to people and asking about their faith. So that's kind of how that ended up on TikTok. The reason

I often try to work towards young women is because as I was going through that process I've just described of discernment and training and curiosity, I often really struggled to find I often really struggled to find representation, women who looked like me. And it just got to a point where I thought, well, if I still can't find someone who looks like me in the church, why don't I give it a go? And yeah, and it's been overwhelmingly very well received. I like it. I like it. Just step into the frame.

I'll do it myself. And you are funny. It's a certain brand of humor, very British. And you suggested giving up men for Lent. Can you tell us a bit more about this? Yeah. Oh my goodness, that TikTok. Yeah. So the idea behind that TikTok is not giving up men in a romantic way or something like that, but I said in the sense of how Jesus would overturn the tables and how he would actually, he'd cut back to people who were questioning him. And it was kind of in that sense because, and this is where I worry for young people and especially young women, because, and this is where I worry for young people and especially young women, they see a, feminism as incompatible with Christianity, but b, this idea that to be

a Christian you have to be someone who's turning the other cheek, you have to be very meek and mild, and actually when you look at Jesus, when you look at the Blessed Virgin Mary, social justice is a huge thing. And actually, you know, there's this bit in the Magnificat, something that Mary says of pulling the mighty down from their thrones. And I think people often don't really see that with Christianity. So again, that's something I just want to put out there a bit more. Yeah, putting your sort of your feminist lens through Christianity. And I really like the fact that

you realized there was no one like you in the church, so you decided to be the change. But what's that experience like of being a young woman in the church? How hard has it been for you? Maybe it hasn't. Yeah, I think it's... Sorry, I think I want to clarify what I said. I think it's one of those things. If you're in the church world, you know that there are other young female priests out there. I think it's, you know, an author once described the Church of England as a house with neck curtains. If you're outside looking in, really hard to see. If you're inside looking out, you can see perfectly. It really works as an analogy. Yes, sorry, can you just repeat that question? No, I was just saying what's it like being a young woman in the church, but I think you've

sort of answered it, you know, there's a lot more going on behind the net curtain, so to speak. And you also share things about your own personal life as well. Why did you want to do that? Like videos of you having nights out and going to concerts, and what's the reaction been to all of it? Yes, yeah, that has been really interesting. The big reason why I wanted to do personal life stuff is because while I was looking at sermon and training, honestly a big fear of mine was, is my life going to end? You know, once you become a priest, does it all just stop? And it was, I mean, it was a real relief to realise priest, does it all just stop? And it was, I mean, it was a real relief to realize actually, no, it doesn't.

Obviously, you live life in a very particular way, but your life doesn't stop. And that was something I wanted to encourage others because I wonder with people looking at going into the church and stuff, there is this assumption that as soon as you become a priest, you have to start wearing cardigans and you spend very quiet evenings in reading books and that's it. And actually no, I don't want people to think that. In terms of reception, it's very divisive, far more divisive than I ever thought it would be. And interestingly, I mean, as we are on Women's Hour, you know, obviously, social media can be a double edged sword. And often some of my harshest critics are other women, which was not something I had really anticipated.

So how do you respond to it? Gosh, that is a good question. Or maybe you don't. Something I'm still working out, to be honest with you, because what I don't want to happen is it just descends into different camps of women in Christianity, because that is not helpful for anyone. So it's trying to work out how do I keep doing what I'm doing, but making sure there's a certain cohesion, there's a certain

compassion going on around all of this. And hopefully you're getting enough positive reaction to keep you going. Oh, absolutely. This is it. And you know, as much negative stuff I get, there's always been some really lovely, really positive reception as well. And what's the end goal for all of this, Pippa? Ooh, I'm going to give you a very poncy answer. Go on. And say that I try to not have a goal for all of this, because I am very sure I am a

priest first and then a TikTok a second. And I think it's when you start having goals, start having ambitions, that's when the original vocation to the priesthood can start getting derailed. And that's something I really don't want to happen. Thank you so much for joining me this morning, Pippa. The Reverend Pippa White there. You can find her on TikTok and she's very entertaining. Join me again tomorrow. That's it for today when Emma Jean Thackeray will be playing live in the studio and telling me about her new album I cannot wait. It's called Weirdo and it's about love and loss.

That's all for today's what's really best for us. Do I need to take a testosterone supplement? How can I fix my creaky knees? Why do I get hangry? Is organic food actually better for me? We're going to be your guides through the confusion. We'll talk to experts in the field and argue about what we've learned and share what we've learned and maybe disagree a fair bit too.

No we won't. What's up, Docs from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.