Woman's Hour - Ofsted, Carrie Coon and Elizabeth Olsen, 'Mum friends'

Episode Date: September 2, 2024

One or two-word Ofsted inspection grades for England's schools are being scrapped immediately. Early next year, school improvement teams will be set up in every area, and the Government says it will continue to intervene in struggling schools. By September 2025, parents will be able to view a new "report card" describing what inspectors have found at a school. BBC Correspondent Ellie Price joins Nuala McGovern to discuss the changes, as does Sir Michael Wilshaw, former Chief Inspector of Education, Children’s Services and Skills, and Emma, a parent campaigner from Sheffield.A new film about to hit our cinema screens looks at three estranged sisters, in very different stages of life who move back in together during their dying father’s final days. His Three Daughters stars Carrie Coon, Elizabeth Olsen and Natasha Lyonne and it covers several themes that might really resonate with many women. It hits selected UK cinemas on Friday 6 September and Netflix on 20 September. Emmy-nominated Carrie Coon, known for her work in The Gilded Age and the new Ghostbusters reboot, and Elizabeth Olsen, Emmy-nominated Marvel Universe Star who played Wanda Maximoff, the Scarlett Witch as well as real-life figure, Candy Montgomery in the miniseries Love & Death, both join Nuala live in the studio to discuss it.As schools go back across England, Wales and Northern Ireland, children aren’t the only ones who might feel the pressure of making friends at school. Alliances and friendships between parents at the school gates will also be forged, broken, renewed or even ignored. So if you’re a mum dropping off or picking up the kids today, how do you feel about hanging out with other mum friends? Do you struggle to make those relationships? Or do you thrive on them? And does having mum friends impact how your own children make friends and socialise? The writers Rhiannon Picton-James and Jayne Cherrington-Cook join Nuala to discuss.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, an announcement this morning by the government that one or two word Ofsted inspection grades for England schools, which were, the words were outstanding, good, requires improvement or inadequate, they are going to be scrapped immediately. And the government said the change follows the suicide of headteacher Ruth Perry in 2023

and was needed to reduce the high stakes for schools and give parents a better picture. We're going to hear reaction to and details of that change. Also, I watched a very moving film over the weekend called His Three Daughters. It's about the family dynamics as a parent is dying. Those daughters are represented by acting powerhouses. We have two of them joining me in studio today, Elizabeth Olsen and Carrie Coon. And you might know that those weeks leading up to a parent dying can be profound. They can impact deeply on relationships within families.

If you have had that experience, whether it gave rise to love, togetherness, resentment, anger, all of the above, or maybe something else completely different, and you want to share what you learned or experienced, you can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website.

For a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number is 03700 100444. Also, it's back to school season, isn't it? Well, maybe you did the school run. Maybe you reconnected with some of your mum friends. What comes to mind when I use

that term, mum friends? Something positive or something a bit more awkward? We're going to talk about mum friends, trying to make them or indeed trying to avoid them. That's all coming up. And I also want to give a quick congratulations to Jodie Grinnam. Yes, she was our recent guest. The Para Archer spoke about competing while seven months pregnant. And I saw she won bronze yesterday in Paris.

I just wanted to give a shout out to Jodie. I know she's competing again today. Best of luck to her. But let me begin with a new film that will be hitting our cinema screens. Looking at three estranged sisters in very different stages of their lives who move back in together

during their dying father's final days. As I mentioned, it's his three daughters. It stars Carrie Coon as Katie, Elizabeth Olsen as Christina, and Natasha Lyonne as Rachel. And it covers several themes that may resonate with you. Preemptive grief, family dynamics in a time of loss, and with, yes, some of those emotions that I mentioned, love, anger, and possibly resentment.

Well, two of the three leads are with me now in the studio. Emmy nominated, congratulations Carrie Coon, a star of many films such as Gone Girl and the new Ghostbusters reboot, as well as the TV hit The Gilded Age. You'll also see her in the upcoming season of White Lotus. Star Power continues. Beside her, Elizabeth

Olsen, Emmy nominated Marvel Universe star who plays Wanda Maximoff at the Scarlet Witch in several films and a TV series WandaVision. She also starred as Candy Montgomery in the miniseries Love and Death among many other roles. Carrie who is Katie, Elizabeth who is Christina. Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you for having us. Yeah thank you. Well let us speak about this beautiful film Three Daughters Who Come Together in Their Fathers' Dying Days. I want to start with the line that really stood out to me.

And it spoke about the fact that depictions of death and of dying in film and TV is not instructive. Yet that is exactly what both of you set out to do with this film. Carly, let me begin with you. How did you approach that? Oh, that's interesting. I mean, certainly death is one thing we all have in common. We're all going one way. We all have to deal with it one way or another.

And I feel that it's particularly in Western civilization, death has become very far from us. We don't deal with the bodies anymore. We don't stand them up in the parlor and keep vigil for three days. We pay somebody to take care of all of the details. The messy details. Exactly. And I feel like for that reason, we're woefully underprepared, maybe in a way we never have been in an earlier time. And so a lot of art forces us to reckon with it. It's interesting, actually, that word vigil, I was thinking when I was coming into you, what is it that these three women are doing with each other? But they're kind of standing vigil, Elizabeth, that word vigil, I was thinking when I was coming into you, what is it that these three women are doing with each other?

But they're kind of standing vigil, Elizabeth, for their father. Well, certainly some better than others. My character, Christina, I think is more comfortable sitting in that role. And I think that's part of the dynamic that unfolds in the film is how everyone's handling it differently, but also how do we cohabitate again after not doing so for so many years? Because those relationships,

they're basically forced into, often, I think people will, this will resonate with them as well, into a couple of rooms. There's that kind of claustrophobic atmosphere as well. How was that to try and act through? It felt like confines. Was it like that when you were on set? Yeah, we had lots of restrictions on this job, which was what made it so special,

was one of the reasons why it made it so special. We had limitations from a budget. We had limitations from a crew. And then the actual space itself is a real rent-controlled apartment in New York. So there's no flying walls, no, you know, great lights on cranes coming through windows. We were really working with what we had. And those, I think those restraints are what is what was most freeing, potentially, for all of us to shoot within that space and hide in corners when we weren't needed. And I think it added to the film experience

and the film itself, because I think you can tangibly feel it when watching. It's very strong emotions. But what was it like to work together? And I'll start with you, Elizabeth, and then come to you, Kerry, to work so closely physically and emotionally because it's almost like a play when you're watching it.

I don't know if that was something you felt while doing it. Well, I certainly prepared it as if we were doing a play because it's a language-forward script. It starts with two characters speaking in monologue form, which I don't think most films try to do ever because I think it's kind of jarring for an audience to retrain their ear in a way, at least for American audiences. I feel like there might be a cultural difference here versus there.

And so I did prepare it as a play, and I think we all came together as a company in that way. Yes, I mean, certainly the language, preparing the language. But then also the idea that we were going to shoot to the end, which I know Lizzie speaks of very eloquently, just how we didn't know, for example, the shape we would end up in on the couch. That came very organically from the way the events unfolded. And that is the three sisters as the story evolves. But of course, the main character, in a way, is the father, the father to these three women.

But there's also that line about, coming back to how it's depicted on TV, death, that really death is absence and the rest is fantasy. And you're trying to represent what people are going to feel, that absence. I thought it was clever not to meet Vinny, their father, for a while. Yes. And Azza was very clear about he wasn't sure if the father would. This is the director. The director, Azza Jacobs, wasn't sure if the father would ever appear in the film. And yet I won't give away exactly how that unfolds.

But it was important to him that in order to communicate what absence feels like, you had to see him to know what they were missing. And so though he is looming sort of over the metronome of his heart monitor is what's driving the rhythm of the movie, it was important for Azza that you would finally get a chance to experience him the way the daughters had so that you would know what they were losing. And I think that's a smart way to do it. And they also talked, this gave me pause,

that you can't really know a person until they've died. You don't see the full person. Oh, yes. I mean, I haven't lost my parents, thankfully, but I have four siblings. And I can imagine the sort of cobbling together of a life, but it's all from our different perspectives. Or you often think of your parent at the time that they're dying. And it's only until I lost my father probably about a year and a half ago. And it's only until they have died that you go back to their earlier incarnations. Yes.

And you start to think of all the things you never asked and that you never knew and that you will now never, ever know. And your perception of them, if you have siblings, is so prismatic. There's no sort of one solid entity. It's all from these revolving points of view and it's hard to make a person out of it. Yeah. And I think the other element to that is that's how we're viewing our father, but it's also how we view each other. We've decided the roles that either of us play within this family unit. And at the beginning of the film, we're all sort of performing to those ideas. And then that starts to become more complicated

as the film goes on. But it's a role that I think we all can relate to in different ways within our own family structure. You know, I just mentioned to our listeners a couple of moments ago that we're speaking about this. Lots of messages in already. Shall I read a couple of them? Yes. So good to hear this being spoken about my mum passed away recently and while I felt the worst sides of members of my family came out I felt I handled it in my mum

needing the peace and suppressing my reactions to the madness around me because there is kind of a madness because it's as serious as life gets right right? Life and death. She goes on to say, hard but needed for the health of my mum. Now, of course, the suppression is unravelling a bit, but the whole experience of loss has taught me patience with myself and others. Here's another. I'm a triplet.

And me and my sisters cared for our dad at home until he passed. We learned about the individual capacity for forgiveness of each other. As our own thresholds were challenged daily, we saw the fragility of life watching our dad's ebb away. We were lost and found daily. We are now forever bonded by our trauma. Oh, that's, I mean, that articulates so beautifully what's happening in the film. And, you know, one of the things I love about it is it never feels like a big swing for a movie about what this is like.

It felt very realistic to me in that those moments she talks about of grace and apology and forgiveness, they are sort of inadequate in the film in a way. And for me, for Katie, who is the – she's the controlling older sister who's trying to control the external details so as not to have to reckon with what's happening inside of her. She's – you know, her – she has these moments of trying to make headway. And I think her sisters accept that they are unfolding within Katie's limitations. And they sort of give her that grace in the film. And that to me feels, speaks very much to that comment and felt so real to me when I read it. Yes, I think with Katie, she's, she's hard, right? She's hard. And she wants to control the situations, as you can see, and concentrates on one aspect that she wants to get done. And as I think people often do in times of crisis, you try to control the bits that you can.

And also you make a lot of food. That's right. Yes, feeding everyone becomes sort of the thrust of her existence. And whereas I think Lizzie's character. Yes, feeding everyone becomes sort of the thrust of her existence. And whereas I think Lizzie's character, Christina, is the one who's able to really sit with our father and doing so becomes the surprising center of the trio. Yeah, and it starts off so differently. And that's kind of something that showed itself, like Carrie had mentioned, because we filmed in order.

It wasn't very clear necessarily in the writing how we were supposed to feel or act or what is actionable by the end of it and our reactions to, I mean, it's always hard to speak to an end of a movie, but where we go by the end of the film. And it was only because of the existing through it and the sitting with and the surprises of the film. And it was only because of the existing through it and the sitting with and the surprises of the humor

that we were able to find that sort of levity and I think the fragility by the end. I think sitting with is also such a good term because my goodness, there's a lot of sitting. There's a lot of waiting, you know, and there's even that humor about, I even remember myself when a hospice person comes in and everybody's trying to put a time limit on something. Can't really be discerned.

Exactly. And the same lecture happens every day. Well, it's coming any minute now. Yeah, the absurdity of that. And, you know, it was really important to Aza to capture the feeling of what that time is. You're existing sort of outside of the rhythms of your life. And it was very important to Aza to feel how time sort of stretches and compresses and how something that normally would be fast in your life is somehow unfolding much more slowly.

And that there's always this metronome of the machines in the back room and that that's sort of the rhythm that everyone is either pushing against or living with. And I just feel that he's done a good job capturing what that liminal space is. Definitely lots more coming in. It was a most moving experience. I didn't expect the grief of losing dad to be exacerbated by the loss of spending time with my sisters who are also my best friends so probably getting into that. Also another my stepdad died very suddenly last year from

cancer it was always hard for me to accept him because it meant accepting the death of my dad but last year faced with the prospect of my stepdad's death i suddenly realized at the age of 35 how much he meant to me and how painful his loss was on his death's door he my sister and i finally signed adoption papers and i could finally see him for the father he has been we were all together with him when he passed. I miss him terribly, but take comfort that we had a meaningful goodbye and I could say to him, he was my dad.

And he said to me, I was his daughter. Oh, wow. That's really interesting. That's beautiful. There's also the relationship we have with Natasha is that she is a, she's a stepsister.

And, and that comes up in different ways within within the film. And what and you don't you wouldn't know because we're all just siblings as you do. You treat one another the same until Katie has some has some I don't know, some hang ups on what that means to her. And yeah, she relates to her. Well, it's childish, you know, with some of the little girl in you sometimes comes out in these moments of grief, I think, like everything, every aspect of your relationship you've ever lived is sort of present in the room when you're about to lose it, I think.

And you're also very, very tired. Yes, so very, very tired. Yeah, and we all know what can happen in that. But, you know, coming back to you, Elizabeth, you talked about, you know, how would it play out? I did read that you felt you flourished in that environment that to me felt raw, tight, deep. Do you mean flourished as in my personal life or the doing? In working in that way. I mean, I love it.

I think you talked about tapping into a softness. Yes, there is a softness to this character that I got to play. That was something that I haven't, I certainly didn't get to do with Candy Montgomery in Love and Death. Oh gosh, I loved that. But there's certainly really no softness there.

No. And so there is something about this woman who's performing the tools that we have learned to create a sense of mindfulness or growth in ourselves, like breathwork, like yoga, mindfulness, trying to spend time with her father while singing and reading. And although those are performative, I do believe that those are also tools that have been useful to her. And so she's been able to kind of just be as much as she can with the obstacles that her sisters have presented. is she's also resisting being herself fully around them so she keeps trying to create these personal spaces because that's the that's that's the the path of least resistance for her and um and so so there's that but i i think specifically the constraints of of how we filmed it it's it's it's some of the most freeing ways of working.

And to strip away all the things that are unnecessary, it really just focuses on the work. And it really just felt like such a close-knit family getting to make this for such a short period of time. More messages coming in. Set up a sibling WhatsApp group in the last months before my father's death. It was invaluable.

We finally, all four of us, came together to be with Dad. The WhatsApp group has seen us through grief, practical arrangements, division of tasks and still dealing with probate. Yeah, that can take a while. Hi, I'm Diana. I have five siblings. In the days leading up to my dad's death,

we all stayed in the house together to support our mum. We had rotas to be in their bedroom as we didn't want our parents to be on their own at the end. We're a very close family and being together made us even closer. Knowing we were all under the same roof gave us strength and courage to cope with the end. That depth of love and support has continued

and also carried us through the loss of our mum. We all played to our strengths. Some took on more personal roles, some cooked meals, some laughed and joked. I'm so proud to be part of such a fantastic family. So obviously that's something that has very much worked out. But I do want to underline as well, because we're talking about these, you know, preemptive grief and grief and loss. But it's also very funny. Yes, because life is absurd. Why is she in black humor? And whenever I see something that's humorless, it doesn't feel real to me. Because I know how my family deals with things. You know, when my grandma was in hospice, we all hid alcohol in the bushes because you weren't supposed to have it in there. And we would always be laughing.

And the nurses would go, did she go? And we're like, no, no, we're fine. And I mean, it was just all like we laughed so much when she was dying. My brother used to bring her a martini in a pickle jar and we dump out her water glass and we pour her martini. And I were like, when they come to give you a sedative, what do you say? No, it was like a whole thing we had going on. But it was so much in keeping with the character of our family and the way we dealt with everything. And so of course, that stuff comes out in death as well. That was definitely something that we were conscious, we were very mindful of while shooting

is we wanted to make sure that, not that we were playing into jokes, but that we were allowing for humor always. Because, yes, because things that are humorless, I don't understand either. And Aza's work always has a sense of humor. I mean, this is very much an Aza Jacobs film and all of his other films have that as well,

as well as the sort of step outside of complete realism. He's always kind of dealing in the fantastical as well. Thank you so much for coming in. You obviously touched a nerve with our listeners. The stories continue to come in. Such a wonderful, wonderful film. I absolutely loved it, if it hasn't come across as I speak about it.

His three daughters, Carrie Coon as Katie and Elizabeth Olsen, my guests as Christina. Thank you both so much for coming in. I wish you the best. Thanks for having us. I hope it's cathartic for your viewers when they see it. Yes.

Thank you. Some more coming in. Here's Jane. She says, when my mum was dying, my brother and I did not agree with the way she should be cared for, causing horrible arguments and much heartache. She died in a care home. I was very sad and felt we could have done more to make

her death better. When my dad was dying one year later, we did everything we could to help him die peacefully at home, which he did with my brother and I by his side. We both felt we had given him the best death possible and it healed our broken relationship. Thank you. Keep them coming. 84844.

Now, the way that Ofsted describes schools in England with one or two words, so like outstanding or inadequate, it has been scrapped with immediate effect. Last year, an inquest found an Ofsted inspection had contributed to the suicide of primary headteacher Ruth Perry, leading to widespread calls for change.

You might remember her sister, Professor Julia Waters, was on Woman's Hour last year, speaking very movingly about the impact of her sister's death. Here she is on the BBC, giving her reaction to this Ofsted decision. It's a vindication of what we've been arguing for and what headteachers and teachers across the country have been telling me would be the most significant change to take

the stress and anxiety of an Ofsted inspection away. But actually, my overriding feeling is one of relief. It was the main thing that preyed on her mind. You know, she had a really bruising inspection that left her very fragile and that word inadequate just she went over and over and over it to get repeating it she wrote it down and it was that feeling not just that she'd had the terrible shock and trauma of a completely unexpected bad Ofsted, but that she was still anticipating the public humiliation that would come with that. That was Julia Waters speaking on the BBC following the Ofsted decision to scrap single word or two word ratings. I'm joined now by BBC correspondent Ellie Price to discuss these changes. Ellie, welcome to Woman's Hour. So talk us through a little bit. The plan was to try and reduce the

high stakes, but also they say to increase transparency for parents. That's right. And it was part of the Labour manifesto. I think there's been some surprise today that it's happened quite so quickly. So what we have today is in essence the scrapping of this one word overarching description of a school based on obviously a more complex Ofsted report. I think worth noting actually that the broader system doesn't change and what the Labour government would like to do now and says it will do by about this time next year is introduce the system of a report card where, in essence, it's a bit more, it sounds quite similar, to be honest, to an existing Ofsted report, but it will not use these words. The words that we have, inadequate, requires improvement, good and outstanding. But it will maybe use some kind of grading system. The details, as I say, haven't really been formalised yet.

It's interesting, I think, that they are talking about the report card which has not been finalized yet but have decided to remove these words anyway. Was there any explanation given for that? Well as I say I think the issue is this idea of it just being too simplistic because it's not taking in into account the kind of broader light of everything that a school does. So on the issue, we had this one word description. And in the case of Caversham Primary School, where Ruth Perry was the head teacher, that school was rated very good or indeed outstanding in many areas. But it was just that one issue of safeguarding of children. I say just one issue is a very important issue. But the point being, and it was heard at the coroner's report, that actually it was it was potentially more to do with paperwork and the way things were being recorded.

No child was harmed in any way at that school. But because on would lead often, if you have an inadequate report, it leads to a change in leadership and often a school would become an academy and that sort of thing. So now, how would you see support for this change? What are you hearing? Certainly been very broadly supported today by the teaching unions, as you might imagine, obviously, all the people who've campaigned for it in the first place on the basis that it was unfair and too simplistic um very much welcoming it hoping that parents will find it a better way to look at a school but i don't know if you've ever read an ofsted report they are long turgid things uh that you've got to sit down and really read through if you really want to get to the nub of it so i think there's some concern certainly by the the previous government by the conservatives

today that it will take away parent choice and take away the simplicity of a parent being able to judge how well a school is doing. And before I let you go, Ellie, an independent review of Ofsted's response to Ruth Perry's death is expected to be published tomorrow. That's alongside further details of how inspections might change. Any details on that review coming through yet? I don't have any details. I think probably worth noting that some changes have already been made by Ofsted. So if a school receives inadequate on the issue of safeguarding, for example, as it did in the Caversham case, Ofsted will now revisit it within three months of that report. And I think very importantly, an inspection can be paused if a headte teacher is deemed to be in severe mental distress.

You see, that is really interesting because how that would be judged or examined or investigated. And exactly how that works in practice. I'm afraid I don't know the details, but obviously the option is there, if you like. And of course, dealing to some extent with these concerns of the severe mental pressure it can put on a head teacher and teaching professionals not just when the report comes out but obviously when the inspection itself is taking place. Ellie thank you so much for joining us and that is a correspondent Ellie Price. Let me turn now to Sir Michael Wilshaw who served as His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Education, Children's Services and Skills from 2012 to 2016. We also have Emma who's a parent campaigner from Sheffield. You're

both very welcome. Michael, first to you, your reaction to this news. Good morning. I'm pleased that this decision has been made. It's been well trailed. The new Secretary of State for Education has already said that she wanted to change this so it's not surprising that she she has the fact of the matter is is that in many ways Ofsted has lost the confidence of the people who really matter that is the head teachers in our schools and the staff in our schools 70% of heads do not believe that the judgments that Ofsted makes are fair, that they're consistent, and are made by people who really know what they're doing. So change is absolutely necessary, particularly after this tragic death, particularly after the Education Select Committee and the coroner of the inquest into Ruth Perry called for radical change. So I'm pleased that it's coming about.

I'm pleased that the Labour government are considering an alternative. I'm pleased that they're thinking about a more comprehensive report card which gives much more information to parents. Well, you changed your mind on this topic, I understand. What was it that was the catalyst for that? I think it was a gradual process. The first thing I should say, it's not up to Ofsted to make this call. It's really up to the Secretary of State for Education,

for the government to make that decision. And when I was Chief Inspector in the Conservative administration, it was absolutely clear to me that they weren't going to change their mind on this despite the fact that I spent a lot of my time checking on the veracity and validity of reports and inspection findings and dealing with a forest of complaints on this one word summative judgment and at the end of my tenure I felt that change was going to happen and I campaigned for it after I left Ofsted. I mean the fact of the matter is if you look at a school and schools are complex organisations you have conflicting evidence so you could have I suppose a curriculum which is really good but the outcomes are really poor in relation to schools with a similar intake you could have

teaching which is good but teaching could be even better if behavior could be improved you could have safeguarding judge good but because behavior is poor it's threatening um uh have safeguarding judge good, but because behaviour is poor, it's threatening the safeguarding judge. So schools of competence and inspectors have to deal with that conflicting evidence. And what they do is they err on the side of generosity. They go into default mode and say, well, OK, there's a conflict here. Let's give this school a good judgment because we know the consequences of putting it into the so-called category of requires approval or special measures. So we have this ridiculous situation where 90 percent, nearly 90 percent of schools are judged as good by Ofsted.

Well, that's patently a nonsense when we know there's a wide variety of standards across the country regional underperformances in places like the midlands and the north and the northwest and and other parts of england we know that poor children are falling further behind so you think that good is completely an over-exaggeration of what the actual situation is on the ground in schools? It is, and it's not being straight with parents on that.

Do you have faith? I mean, we don't know the details of what these report cards will be like. It's still scant. But do you think there can be a process that will be fairly reflective of what is actually happening on the ground? Well, a lot of work will have to go in to this by both Ofsted and the Department of Education. When the report card or the details of the report card are finally

published, it's absolutely essential that has the confidence of the sector it that it does capture what I've just been talking about the complexity of school life and the and the different issues that have to be judged but I have to say this and this is really crucial whatever happens at the end of this of this period and a report card it eventually or the details we it are eventually published. It doesn't actually solve the problem of the amount of time inspectors can give to a school at the moment. It's just over a day.

Can you really collect all the evidence that you need to make fair and consistent judgments when you only spend just over a day in a school, often just by... How long do you think an inspector would need to be in a school to make a fair assessment? All this depends on money. An officer's budget has been cut by a third over the last few years. And they've, of course, got to inspect not just schools,

but further education and prison education and children's services and I could go on. Now, they haven't got, quite simply, hasn't got the resources to spend more time in schools unless the government decides to increase its budget. So I would say, yes, reform is necessary, but inspectors need to spend more time in a school, at least two days, it seems to me. At least two days and more money, as you say, as well. Thank you so much for joining us, Sir Michael Wilshaw, who served as His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Education, Children's Services and Skills from 2012 to 2016. I'm going to go to Emma in just a moment, but can I come back to Ellie for just one moment? Anything said about the funding, about whether it will increase? Just following on from Sir Michael's point there?

The Education Secretary, a little bit hazy as you might imagine this morning when questioned about it. The money will come for what's also being introduced which are regional whatever they call it in the regional sorry I'm trying to find my notes where it's got the actual name of it. Basically

teams in each region that will kind of help school improvements in certain areas. The money for those will come from the levy on private school fees, the tax of private school fees, which they said is said to be enough. As for Ofsted, I think sort of all a bit up in the air at the moment. Of course, we've got a budget coming in a few weeks time. And that is Bridget Philipson, who's the Secretary of State for Education. I might have heard her on the Today programme this morning.

Let me turn to Emma, who's been waiting patiently. Good to have you with us. So your daughter's school was rated inadequate in September 2022. What was the ramifications of that? Yes. So she just started at the school.

She'd been in year seven for a couple of weeks. And we didn't find out about this inadequate, which happened like Ruth Perry School in Caversham, just on safeguarding until January. There was a lot of back and forth between the school and Ofsted. And for us, this meant forced academisation. So immediately, the school that we had chosen, had selected, this is a really popular, it was and is the last local authority secondary school in Sheffield,

was basically going to have new management, could turn over everything from uniform, curriculum, staffing, everything about this school. Because it was becoming an academy and that was the law. If it had certain ratings of inadequate for a number of times, it it was becoming an academy and that was the law if it had certain ratings of inadequate for a number of times it had to become an academy it triggered it

immediately and there was nothing anyone could do about that and when we as parents started to ask more information about this process how is it selected we then realized that the community the parents and no you know nobody with any relationship to the school had any say in this the department for education would choose an academy and that would be it and my daughter had just started at this school and I have two younger children you know we were this is our catchment school we were potentially going to be there for a very long time with no other options and so yeah this triggered a very very large and in the end successful parent campaign. A successful parent campaign. So what happened to help the school improve?

OK, so when we had the letter in January with the Ofsted report, the school said it had already made the changes, necessary changes that it believed that Ofsted had identified. It was around risk assessments and staff having up-to-date training etc they asked for Ofsted to come back and inspect and we as parents supported that we had a large petition saying just get you know the school said it's made the changes let's see if that is in fact the case before we make these massive changes local MPs that we had so much support and from everybody who said this isn't the right path for this school um it was a long process we were pushing back on various bits of it an academy was

chosen which we were very unhappy about the school wasn't informed nobody was informed it was sort of all done very secretively so we managed to delay the process through that campaign and then in I think it was May the same academic year so 2023 Ofsted came back to see how the school was doing and they decided that the school was doing so well they turned that into a full inspection and it was back to good so in the space of one school year and so I mean I think it shows you know what has been said about perhaps it being a flawed process not a consistent process a reliable process so so you are welcoming this news today i would imagine i am welcoming this news because that single word judgment on one area of the school where there were lots of

other very positive things about the school had led to what could have been a very destructive um but with that you will have heard from Sir Michael also, Ellie, outlining some of the unanswered questions when it comes to the new way of doing things. Does that give you pause? Yes, I mean, it's good news, but we need to see what the new process looks like. And I think I would personally like to see

a lot more working with schools than against schools. There didn't seem to be anything about wanting our school to improve or working with the school to address any changes. It was just, no, you failed, you're done, we're taking over. And I think that process isn't helpful to anybody. I think we should be learning from schools that are doing well. I think we should be collaborating and I think we should be

supporting schools to make changes where they're needed. And what do you, I mean, what's the most helpful support do you think? You've just gone through that process for schools that are deemed to not be meeting expectations.

Yeah, I think working with the schools, I mean, already changes had happened because inspectors now come back three months after an adequate safeguarding to see if changes had been made. You know, that would have been very helpful to us. That's what the school had been asking for. Yeah, so an idea of how improvements can be made. I think there was some, I saw this morning about working with other schools to collaborate and improve on areas where it's needed. You know,

schools, this is a school that has an intake of 1,700. It has a massive sixth form. You can never sum that up in one word, ever. And maybe not in one day, according to Sir Michael as well. Emma, a parent campaigner from Sheffield, thank you so much. Ellie Price, BBC correspondent, thank you so much also for coming in studio. And as you were hearing as well, Sir Michael Wilshaw, who was also chiming in on this topic that many of you have strong opinions on. I want to stay with education for a moment. Something coming up for your diaries on Tuesday the 10th of September

as the new school term gets in England, gets underway. We will be dedicating an entire programme to SEND. So how mothers are bridging the gaps in the special educational needs and disabilities system.

More than 1.5 million children in England alone have special educational needs and disabilities. But mums tell us it is a broken system. They say there's constant and exhausting battles as

families fight to get a suitable education for their children. We're going to be joined by the EastEnders actress Kelly Bright. Her son has autism spectrum disorder, also ADHD and dyslexia. We'll have 17-year-old campaigner Katie Nellist who lost years of education

due to her poor experience off the SEND system and also by headteachers and special needs teaching assistants. And, of course, we want to hear from you. We want to talk about what happens when your child with SEND

does not get an appropriate school place, about the quality of provision for those that do and also what it feels like to be a mum who is navigating the system. So many of you have got in touch. If I haven't got back to you personally,

I know a lot of you also messaged and emailed, forgive me, but I know this is something that so many people are being interested in. The best way to do it is contact Women's Hour

in the usual ways with the experiences you want to share. Include a line in your message to say that you're happy for us to keep your contact. That way we have more time to get back to as many of you as we can. That's Woman's Hour asking, is the send system working? Coming up on the 10th of September. I want to turn back to our conversation we're having with Kerry Coon and Elizabeth Olston

at the beginning of the hour on grief. I'm the youngest of three sisters. Our dad died in December and we became stronger as a result. I very much feel that the personality of the person dying sets a tone. His character was and continues to be our guide. So love, humour, grace, humility

were central to our navigation as they were central to our dad. Here's Anna. As an only child, I dread my remaining parent dying. There is no one who can feel the same grief were central to our navigation as they were central to our dad. Here's Anna. As an only child, I dread my remaining parent dying. There is no one who can feel the same grief that you're experiencing and no one with whom to share

the memories and practical arrangements. It's a lonely role and one I am already trying to prepare for. Spare a thought for the onlys. Another, my father passed away last week. I'm sorry for your loss. Family integrities or lack of came to the fore as a parent declines and a child becomes the parent in a caring capacity. Threshold are pushed and you see true colours.

Lots more coming in 84844. If you would like to get in touch on that conversation we were having a little earlier in the program. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, we've been discussing various aspects of relationships that parents have at their schools. They're just a moment ago

and also with their children on the programme today. We heard that discussion about Ofsted and the change in scrapping the one word or two word judgments. But as schools go back, we also want to look at the relationships that you make by the school gates. Sometimes children aren't the only ones

who might feel the pressure of making friends at school. Friendships between parents at the gates or in a group chat, the old WhatsApp, they will be forged or renewed, maybe broken, maybe ignored, maybe avoided. And sometimes as a parent, you might feel like you're picking your way through alliances that are more complex and more volatile than any high school clique. So if you are a mum dropping off or picking up the kids this week, how do you feel about hanging out with other mum friends? I find that term kind of interesting as well. Mum friends. They're never called friends.

They're called mum friends. Do you struggle to make those relationships or do you thrive on them? Or are you perfectly happy without them? And does having mum friends affect how your own children make friends and socialise? Well, with me in studio to discuss mum friends, how to make them, how to break them,

how to move on from them, how to avoid them, are the writers Rhiannon Picton-James and Jane Charrington-Cook. Welcome to both of you. Hi, thank you for having me. Rhiannon, let me start with you. You live near Swansea, you have a four-year-old daughter and you felt the pressure, I was reading your article, to make mum friends. Give us us an idea what you went through yeah um so I think the pressure came from

a comment made from my daughter's teacher um during our first ever parent teacher meeting this was only in nursery by the way it wasn't even proper school and she made the comment that Ada doesn't play with everyone in the class she just just has a couple of friends that she spends time with. And she said, you know, you should make some playdates because the children who spend time together in class are the ones whose parents meet up after school. So she says, you know, join the WhatsApp group. Aren't you in the WhatsApp group? Make some playdates. And what did you immediately think?

I felt just flooded with shame. I felt terrible. I felt like she was saying there's something wrong with your child. And it's because you've got no mates, basically. What did you decide to do? I had a go with it. Yeah. I did go along to some playdates with some women. I never really got a really good friendship out of it, though. I took A.D. with B. But I think I've come to the accepting that she's painfully shy. I'm painfully shy and I'm not really going to force it. What is it like at the school gates for those that have never been there?

It's so uncomfortable. It's the worst place I've ever been. You've got to stand there for so long, not talking to anyone. And I was always there just wishing someone would say hello to me, feeling too shy to say hello to someone else. Let me bring Jane in here. Explain the school gates as well for those of us that haven't experienced it. The school gates take you back to being back at school. It is like you said, a high school clique.

You've got the sporty mums over there. You've got the glam mums over there. And if you don't fit into one of those, it's really, really difficult to navigate. And yet you're all there just because your children were born in the same year it's a really weird thing so you you have a teenage son now yeah jane riannon's is still little um you you know riannon you were trying there i mean was it kind of cringy trying or it It was. It was awful. Yeah.

What did you do? Did you ask someone to go for a coffee or? I did. They ended up not coming. Oh, no. And cancelling. So I think I was already pretty rejection sensitive. And that just really, I was spiralling. I felt terrible. I thought no one wants to be my friend.

I didn't really go to any of the mum nights out either. There was a group chat and they said, there's this night out, do you want to come? And I said, yes. And then all the other women started posting about who they were getting lifts with. And I realised that there was a splinter off group and no one had asked me to go with them. Be part of it.

Yeah. You see, Jane is nodding vigorously here. Jane, come in. Yeah, well, I just didn't buy into any of that. From the get go, you didn't though? Pretty much. Yeah. I think I'd had some really bad experiences at baby groups, where you're trying to make your child do yoga or paint when they're four months old, and trying to bond with these other women. And I just thought this is ridiculous. And I pretty much straight away realised it was going to be just down to luck if I met somebody that I clicked with.

And so I probably removed myself quite early on mentally from all of that. Still didn't make it any nicer going to the school gates, but I was a bit like, if I find a friend, great, but what's the likelihood? And when are you going to really know that you click because you have five minutes before pick up? It's interesting though, because when I was looking at this, And when are you going to really know that you click because you have five minutes before pickup? It's interesting, though, because when I was looking at this, there's lots that really extol the virtues of mum friends, that it can be positive and supportive. One thing I was reading that that that women will share their birth story before they even know what the partner's name is, if there is a partner or what your surname is for that matter.

Does that ring true? I think that's the bit I struggled with more. The intimacy? The intimacy, but also when you're in the doldrums of having a baby, that's all your life is, you know, nappy changes and vomiting and not sleeping. I didn't want to go and talk about that with other mums. I wanted to talk about some celebrity gossip or the latest bargain I'd got somewhere or something going on in the news. And they didn't want to do that. So not the motherhood part of it. I didn't really want to do that. What about with you? I mean, did you feel, you said you're shy. I don't know if you're an introvert.

I'm not an introvert. You're doing very well this morning. I think this is okay because it's more of a work thing and the fear of rejection isn't so strong. If you're rejected socially, it's incredibly personal. Of course. And also your child's being rejected, which makes it a hundred times worse. It's wrapped up with that as well. But I'm wondering, did you ever feel lonely?

Because a lot of reasons why people make these mum friends is trying to avoid that loneliness of early motherhood. Yeah, I did. When I gave birth to Ada, it was in 2020 in the height of lockdown. So there's no baby groups, there's no antenatal classes and none of these things are running. So I really was just stuck, just me and her in the house on our own, struggling with postpartum depression as well.

And I think my social battery just depleted so much. Like I was never the life of the party before but at least I was at the party and now it got to the stage where actually I don't feel confident enough to even to even try and attend. People will know you no doubt at the school gate I'm thinking your photograph is in the article um what sort of response did you get? I got deleted from the whatsapp. No. No, I did. It was so uncomfortable. This woman texted me like, I've only spoke to you once before, like a quite nice message. Hi, like I know you and Adria are moving schools.

I just wanted to wish you good luck before you leave the WhatsApp group. And I thought, OK, thanks. I hope you have a really good summer too. And I didn't delete it immediately because like I was just shopping. And then I go on my phone again and I've been removed from the group so the but the whatsapp group uh Jane is a real modern motherhood tool yeah yeah and it's horrible because you can't almost get away without being in it because you know that's the really organized mums let you know when all the dress updates are coming and when the bake sales are going.

So you kind of need to be in it and birthday party invites. But it's horrible. And it is that I would put the odd message in there and no one would ever reply. And you feel that tumbleweed going. And it was horrific. And my greatest joy was when my son started secondary school and I didn't have to be in one anymore. So that's it, you're done now? Done. Messages coming in. Let me see.

Woman's Hour. As an adoptive dad, I did the school run all during my daughter's junior school. Very few mums would talk to me. I definitely got the impression that I was in the wrong place. But is it, you know, there must be a mix of people there. It's not going to, I'm saying mum friends, but there must be dads. There's grandmas. Yeah, carers and childminders.

I think that makes it harder because the way we live today is, you know, the pressures are different. Women are working, they're going back to work. Maybe they're having babies, maybe you're working part time. So it's just the juggle of dad can do it today, mum can do it today, not at the same place at the same time seeing the same people. So you're not making those connections. And I actually always used to gravitate to the dads more. They don't, you know, they don't ever take part in any of the clique stuff. They don't know the gossips. If I went to a birthday party and I'd see some of the dads there,

I would immediately go and hang out with them because they were just much easier to sort of hang out with. More messages coming in. The feature on School Gates is really resonating. I am very shy at approaching people and starting a conversation. I'm fine if people start talking to me, but I've been in many situations, for example, before baby classes

or at the nursery gates where I've been digging my nails into my hands as it feels painfully awkward with everyone stood in silence. Another one coming in, though. Hi, just listening to you talk about mum friends at primary school.

As an older mum, I was initially anxious, but I found the most supportive group of amazing mums. Being 50, I have made and kept good friendships over the years, but I'm so pleased to have found another set of amazing people, despite a possible 10 or 15 year age gap. I really appreciate and I'm so thankful for these new strong friendships. Yeah, I mean, that's great. And I think when it happens, you're so lucky.

I've got a friend and she just made some wonderful friendships. But I think a lot of it is down to luck. You know, the sort of people that you meet at the year your son or daughter was born and whether you click with them. But are there not so many commonalities just by that pure fact that you have? You're going to be going through the same things, they all went through that potentially terrible experience of being very isolated while pregnant or with a newborn, without family or friends around. And then kind of emerging into the light to the school almost because it's a couple of years that COVID was going on. Yeah, by the time I came out of lockdown, it just seemed that everyone already knew each other and they had these groups formed. So maybe I was a little later to come out than other people were. And then it just felt so

overwhelming because every group I went to, there were groups of women, they were already friends, they already knew each other. And I just felt like it was me and my baby on the outside. So it felt a lot harder than it didn't feel like we're all starting this together. It felt like everyone has their friends and I'm just on the outside trying to get in joining them. More messages. I found I had lots of people to talk to at the gates when my son was in nursery but as school has gone on most connections I had with other mums have drifted away. My son is autistic he can't go to the clubs that other children go to he can't manage birthday parties and we don't get invited for play dates so I just don't see other mums socially now. It makes me sad sometimes,

but I'm lucky to have great friends in other parts of my life, especially work. So my son's autistic, so I'm nodding furiously at this one. It does make it harder, you know, that their behaviour, and we didn't know my son was autistic until he was eight.

So, you know, you go to birthday parties and he won't join in or he starts having a meltdown because there's too much sensory overload. And it did make it really, really hard because people would just blame me as a parent I got told by some parents that I wasn't parenting correctly and I should try this this and that and I'm like I have tried everything um so I understand her I totally get where she comes from totally that's why the online world is great for me I found a community of people online so you do have mum friends Jane I don't I actually when I looked at who my mum friends are they are

friends who I knew before and they've gone on to have children and some of those have gone on to have autistic children and that's that's why we bonded but yeah oh where do you find community Rhiannon uh I do have some friends I've met online so I found some mums on friend finding apps not necessarily at the school gates though and I just have a couple of really close friends and that's it I'm just not someone who has a wealth of connections or a big group of friends. So in your article you talked about and you mentioned here as well that shame that you felt but but where are you with it now when it comes to mum friends? I wonder what you also think about that term, mum friends. You hate it, Jane.

I hate mummy tribe. Oh, let's make a mummy tribe. Hate it. Hate it. I guess the friends that I have, they're more like friends who just happen to be mums than mums that I have befriended. So we have more in common than just we're at the same school gate. Because it must be, not as a mum, but important to have women around you that understand what you're going through as you experience motherhood. Definitely. But I think you can find those from different places. You know, I'm lucky I've got my older sister. I've

got other friends who'd gone through for it beforehand. I worked with some really great charities like Homestart in the beginning, because I also had postpartum depression who provided me with like mentors to help me. And I think there is enough sort of people out there you can you can get out to. I just find the whole mummy tribe just puts more pressure on mums. We've got to do everything these days and find friends. And we're specifically talking about the mum friends that you find at school. Yes. I think it's also important because women are responsible for making the social connections fulfilling the social calendars for the children like it's not on dads to exactly

that are you getting on with Betty's dad because we have to have a play date you know it's on the mums you need to be friends with the mum so it's not weird when your child says hey can so and so come over so there is that pressure too 84844 if people want to chime in about the mum friends, I think it's a good conversation started to have at the beginning of the season though. You did also, just before I let you go there, Jane, you did write an article talking about that you were avoiding making mum friends.

I'm just curious the response you got to that. I actually had loads of people reach out to me and say, yes, this is exactly how I feel. Exactly how I feel. I don't want that added pressure. Having a baby is enough. I don't need to be making new friends. So it's the pressure that's behind it too.

Here's one more from Diana on Mum Friends. I also felt shy and awkward at the school gates. My daughter was also very introverted, recently diagnosed as autistic. And I was often approached by teachers concerned for her welfare. She sometimes preferred to spend time alone at breaks. There was no understanding that it was OK for her to need time alone. I'm now in my 50s and realise it's okay for us to be who we are but there's still constant social messaging that that's not normal and women in particular should have groups of close friends. It's not normal for everyone and that should be

respected. Let us let Diana have the last word on that. Rhiannon Pinkton-James and Jane Charrington-Cook, thank you both so much for coming in to Woman's Hour. Thank you. I want to go back to the conversation we were having at the beginning of the programme. It was with Elizabeth Olsen and Kerry Coon. If you missed it, you can always listen back on BBC Sounds, of course. But we were talking about the family dynamics

when it comes to a parent dying in that time, particularly can be quite intense. Here's some messages that I got. I'm terribly sad that the care of our beloved dad resulted in a severe fracture of my sibling relationships. Maybe one day we can overcome our breakup. Another one coming in. I helped my dad care for my mother for the last few months of her life. For me, it was a surreal time of holding my own family together and almost having two partners. My dad needed me as a support to run the household and my husband struggling with not

having his own role and having different needs. My own grief and needs often took a back seat. That may resonate with some. Here's another. I'm one of four siblings. When my mum died of cancer, what shocked me was how utterly individual each of our responses were to her death. It's all about each individual relationship with that parent. I understand this now, but at the time found it very difficult to understand. And I think these might be helpful because we'll all go through it or maybe have gone through it if, in fact, our parent dies before us. When my mother was dying, I found the most important thing is to ditch your ego and your own preferences. Your job, if you like, is to make things as easy as possible for your parent.

What a lovely thought. Join me tomorrow. I'll be speaking to the Oscar winning director, Susan Beer. The perfect couple. We need to talk all about that. Elegant popcorn is what she called it. That's tomorrow at 10. I will see you right here for Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hi, I'm India Rackison and I want to tell you a story. It's the story of you. In our series, Child, from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to be exploring how a foetus develops It's the impact of birth on a mother affects us all. Then we're going to look at the incredible feat of human growth and learning in the first 12 months of life. Whatever shape the journey takes, this is a story that helps us know our world. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.