Woman's Hour - Olive Morris, Eileen Flynn, Women and Gaming

Episode Date: July 10, 2020

It's 41 years this Sunday that Olive Morris died. She was a Black British feminist and civil rights campaigner. A couple of weeks ago, Google marked what would have been her 68th birthday with a drawing of her on its header. So who was Olive Morris and who are some of the other Black British female activists from the past who we should know about? We talk to Angelina Osborne, a researcher and lecturer, and Olivette Otele who's a professor specialising in Black female history.Eileen Flynn is the first Traveller to be made a Senator in the Irish Parliament. The Irish PM, or Taoiseach, can nominate a handful of people to work in the Upper House and a couple of weeks ago Eileen was one of them. She says it’s an historic moment, especially for Travellers who are so marginalized and stigmatized in Irish society. She talks to us from her home in Donegal. All week we’ve been looking at women and gaming. We've explored how gaming has changed and how it can improve some people's mental health. The UK gaming industry is worth billions and the video games sector makes up more than half of the UK’s entire entertainment market. Women are 50% of those who play and those over 40 are among the fastest growing group of people that play on their smartphones. But the number of women working in the industry is much lower and today we hear from them.Photo Credit: Lambeth Council

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Friday, July the 10th, 2020. Good morning to you. Welcome to the programme. In a moment or two, I'm talking to Eileen Flynn, who is somebody, she's a historic figure. She's the first traveller to be made a senator in the upper house of the Irish Parliament.

We'll talk to Eileen in a moment or two. We've been discussing women and gaming throughout the week on Woman's Hour and today you can hear from three very brilliant young women all paving their own way in the gaming industry at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it as well. And we also will be celebrating black female British activism and talking in particular about Olive Morris, the black British feminist and civil rights campaigner.

Let's go to Donegal then in Ireland and talk to Eileen Flynn, who is the first traveller to be made a politician, a senator, in fact, in the upper house of the Irish Parliament, the Shannad. The Irish prime minister, or Taoiseach, can nominate a handful of people to work in the Shannad. And a couple of weeks ago, Eileen Flynn was one of them. And she's able to join us now. Eileen, good morning to you and congratulations. Good morning, Jane. Thank you very much. Just listening to you introducing myself and to the show,

it's absolutely just incredible, you know, just to hear that a member of the Traveller community or someone from an ethnic minority group in Ireland is in Parliament, you know. Well, it's fantastic. Have you got used to being introduced as Senator Flynn yet? No, I find it, I think it's because I've always been behind and just because I believe so much in equality and human rights, I do find it very tough being called senator, you know.

I know you're home at the moment with your little girl who is nine months old and is slightly making her presence felt at the moment. What is Billie actually up to? At the moment, she's playing with a pink bar like the door. Right, OK. Well, that should keep her quiet for at least nine or ten seconds, so we'll chat while we can. Tell us, Eileen, just a little bit about yourself. You are only 30, so you're actually very young to be in this sort of position at all, aren't you? Yeah, I've been an activist for the last ten years and I've been a strong, if you want to use them terms,

women's activist since 2015 and it's equality for women, for travellers, for people of colour, for minority groups really, I've really stood up for. So I have a wealth of experience working with people and working with communities. Tell us a little bit about the Irish Traveller community. Just how big is it for a start? There's over 40,000 travellers in Ireland, well, just under 40,000 travellers in Ireland. And, of course, people would know we were a nomadic group.

We were not allowed to travel around anymore, but that's what we used to do, you know. And then also we have our own language, you know, cultural values, you know. And in the past, you have suffered from really quite severe discrimination. Oh, yes. Even nowadays in Ireland, discrimination is very bad, not only towards travellers, but people of colours

and people at the very end of society, you know. Anyone that's different is... Like, discrimination doesn't seem to be bad in Ireland from the outside looking in, but it is worse than any other country. It's almost as though Billy doesn't appreciate your new status, Eileen. She's trying to interrupt, isn't she? But we'll let you just have a little word with Billy

while we hear you in action in the Shanard this week. And I was watching this last night. It's one of those moments where you really feel for someone because Eileen was just about to speak and she had to listen to loads of other speakers in the Shanard and then it got to her turn. So here she is being introduced. Could I call on Senator Eileen Flynn?

Firstly, Senator Daly, I'd like to congratulate you in your role as a Cairnharlach and I'd love to look forward to working with you in the future. Sorry, I'm actually extremely nervous from hearing from everyone else and stuff speaking. For me, rwy'n eithaf yn fawr o'i gael o'i gweld gan bawb arall a stopi'n siarad. I mi, hoffwn ddod i'r cyfle i ddiolch T-Shock, Michal Martin am y nodiad a Eamonn Ryan a Leo Baracara hefyd am y nodiad.

I mi, i fod yn y person trafeler sydd wedi cael ei glywed heddiw, mae trafeleriaid wedi bod o gwmpas y bwrdd polidol dros dros 30 mlynedd. the traveller person that's here today. Over 30 years, Travellers has fought to be around the political table and it's brilliant now that there's finally a vice in the Seannad air for a member of the traveller community, but also that unique vice, a vice in the Seannad for those at the very end of Irish society. So I look very forward to being that voice for those at the end of society. So I look forward to working with everybody and hopefully we can all learn from each other

and hopefully that I'll be that person that will break down the barriers for Traveller people and also for those at the end of Irish society. Thank you. Can I thank you for your contribution and thank you for being here and allowing your name to go forward. And it's not an easy thing to do when you get a phone call for the Taoiseach to be there to ask to be the voice of an entire community who have felt such extreme marginalisation for so long. That's a real moment of Irish history there. That was Senator Paul Daly in the chair of the Sianad. That is the upper house of the Irish Parliament. That was on June the 29th, actually, Eileen. What was it like while you waited to speak?

Because you must have been really nervous. Extreme. You know, I've often spoken in front of 40,000 people, 20,000 people, and it actually comes really natural to me because you're not lying, you're looking for equality and you're speaking that level of, oh, am I meant to be here? Like, am I just, like, am I pigeon-toed, you know? Is it just, am I, because I'm not a one-trick pony. And even though I am a member of the Traveller community and that's why I want to fight for Traveller rights, but I also want to fight for women's rights, for working-class people, for the homeless people.

So I think it's been pigeonholed into just being one kind of politician. And it's still politicians' roles to ensure that travellers' rights and other ethnic minority people's rights are being met. It's not only my responsibility while I'll be doing a great deal of work which I've already started this week it's not just

up to me you know and I shouldn't be the traveller senator I'm Eileen who is a traveller that's a senator you know Yeah can you tell me a little bit about your childhood Eileen when did you first feel Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood, Eileen? When did you first feel, or when were you first made to feel, different?

I was born and raised in a heartland site in Ballyferm. I lost my mum at the age of 10 and then I was in a really bad accident. So I spent a lot of my childhood in Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children. Like, for me me feeling different would have been when i was really young in the shops with my mother and my sisters and

brothers kind of being watched and followed around now look obviously when you're a young person of four or five years of age you think it's normal to be followed around shops. My mother was a very good living woman, like many Traveller people, and she wasn't a thief, she wasn't a robber or anything like that. And looking back at some of that life experience, it is very hard sometimes, thinking know, like thinking how like it's live and let live, you know and experience racism and discrimination and thinking it's normal, you know Well it's all about quite ignorant stereotypes, isn't it?

And I guess if I was going to use some ignorant stereotypes, and I hope you forgive me, I would make the assumption perhaps that Irish traveller women would marry very young and have a lot of children. A lot of people would make that assumption, even in the education system, in employment. You know, people don't tend to see outside of the box.

And again, it's the media, it's social media, it's shows that give travellers a really bad name. I haven't seen a really positive show on travellers yet, you know. And I think it's all that negativity. And it's not doing the community any favours, but it's not doing society any favours either. And that there is the message that, unfortunately, we're giving out through the media, you know. I didn't get married until August two years ago

and I got married to a settlement from Donegal but that there was like, and many travellers are married to people outside of our community. Just thinking back to that scene you described with your mum in the shop, and I know I appreciate you lost your mum when you were very young, what on earth would she make of you being in the

Shanad now, Eileen, honestly? I don't know, she'd probably think I'd be some level of craziness as well, but I'd imagine she'd be extremely proud, you know, because she was very proud like she'd always stand up for what she believed in as well

Well you're a great credit to her and I'm sure she is extremely proud of you, thank you very much for talking to us and the very best Take care of yourself Take care of Billy as well and she was a lot of people actually saying they don't care about baby noise in the background.

No, nor do I, but just in case anybody does, we just thought we'd reference it. So thanks to Eileen Flynn and many, many congratulations to her. You're welcome, of course, to join us via social media at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter, or you can email the programme via our website. Looking ahead to next week, looking forward to Monday, talking to the best-selling novelist Dorothy Coombson then. Her sequel to The Ice Cream Girls is just out. It is called

All My Lies Are True and Dorothy will be on the programme on Monday. Double standards is something we're exploring then as well. Why do we still judge female and male criminals rather differently? That is on Monday morning's edition of the programme. Now, it's over 40 years since the death of Olive Morris, a black British feminist and civil rights campaigner. And a couple of weeks ago, Google Doodles marked what would have been her birthday, her 68th, with an illustration of her face. But who was Olive Morris? And who are some of the other historic black British female activists we should all know much more about? We can talk to Angelina Osborne, who's a writer and historian and journalist,

and to Olivette Otele, who is a professor of history and memory of slavery at the University of Bristol. Good morning to you both. Welcome. Hello. Good morning. Let's talk about Olive Morris. Actually, I knew of Olive Morris because of the building named after her, which I think is about to be demolished. We can talk a little bit about that. But, Olivette, what are the crucial things everybody should know about the life and work of Olive Morris, a woman who died very, very young? She was just 27. So many other things before we even start with Olive. Just a quick thing. Thank you so much for inviting Senator Flynn, because I've been following her trajectory and I'm so very proud of her. scholarly activism with grassroots activism. She was defending women's rights, all women's rights, and she focused on actually making a difference within her community. In other

words, you make a difference wherever you are at a point in time in your life. There was something that happened, wasn't there? There was an incident that really spurred Olive on. Can you just tell us a little bit about that, Olivette? No, I'm going to ask Angie to do that. Go on then, Angelina. Because she wrote beautifully about it. Go on. Oh, thank you, Olivette.

Thank you so much. Well, Olive had witnessed a Nigerian diplomat being arrested and beaten up by the police. He was driving a very nice car, a Mercedes, and the police assumed that it was not his car, that he had stolen it. And at that point, it was when the 17-year-old Olive intervened. And she intervened and found and got beaten up herself and arrested for coming to the aid of the Nigerian diplomat. And she was charged with assaulting a police officer. And when I was looking at some of her archives, I saw a picture of her as she left

King's College Hospital and she'd been horribly beaten up. Her face was all swollen. She was in really, really bad shape. They'd really worked her over. But I'd like to believe that possibly that was a moment, the moment that she became, got involved in activism. Well, she was clearly a very brave 17-year-old. Angelina, just put that in context for us. What else, what year was it? What was happening in Britain at the time? Okay, so that incident happened in 1969. And so the context is, so from the moment mass migration started in 1948, mass migration from the Caribbean, then what you kind of witnessed was a sort of whole series of individual state and state sort of racism

to migrants, to people who had come over from the Caribbean. So things were very, very difficult. People felt, certainly, Caribbeans felt literally under siege, you know, discrimination, employment and housing. They were over-policing of them. They were in really terrible kind of circumstances in which they began to resist, began to resist that institutional, that state and individual racism by organising in different ways. And so she was sort of a manifestation of the next sort of stage of organisation and resistance. So that was really the Black Power Movement. Yeah. She also was central to a squatters rights campaign, too, back in the 70s. Yes, that's right. She sort of noticed there was so many people homeless or waiting for housing.

And there was lots and lots of empty houses around Brixton where she lived and grew up. And so she became quite adept, quite skilful of learning how to break into houses and how to set them up. So she was actually featured on the squatter's handbook. There's a picture of her climbing, scaling a wall on the front of the squatter's handbook back in the mid-70s. What is very sad, obviously, is that she died so young and I think rather suddenly as well, Oliver.

Had she lived longer, could she have gone into, well, could you have seen her in Parliament? We were talking earlier to Eileen Flynn. Why not Olive Morris? I think she would have carried on her fight and i'm not sure that she would have wanted to particularly play a role in parliament because she was really ambivalent about about that about the place that we're holding in society in terms of our engagement political engagement so she was it seems to me that she was very hands on. So she would probably have supported other women to get into parliament and, you know, mentor them and educate the rest of the population.

It is interesting that she is commemorated. She isn't entirely forgotten. She has that council building named after her in South London. But it is, I think, about to be demolished. And there's quite a ferocious campaign to make sure that she isn't forgotten, the Remembering Olive Collective. Oliver, how important is that, that kind of grassroots activism that's still fighting for her to be recognised?

It's incredibly, incredibly important. And timely, really, because it's a reminder that grassroots activists have been at the forefront of some of the major changes in our societies. So we need to keep on supporting that collective and that campaign. And there's an echo with the Black Lives Movement and other grassroots groups actually at the moment working towards fighting against inequality. So there's a parallel to be made between her life and young people nowadays and the people we have all met more recently fighting for black lives. Let's move on and talk about other names that people should know.

Now, Claudia Jones is someone that this programme has talked about because of her links to the Notting Hill Carnival. So, Olivette, tell us why you believe she is so important. Oh, I believe she's definitely important because of a long life that span from Trinidad, the States, the UK. And because there's an international link between all these figures and all these women, they were travelers in the global sense, in the positive sense, in the sense that they were citizens of the world. They were defending, and she was defending, not just women's rights, but black women's rights. And she was ferocious about the kind

of triple jeopardy women, black women face, meaning race, gender, class. So it's about somebody who's fighting against inequality, again, wherever she was and wherever she could. And she was, you know, she was in prison for that. She spent her life, you know, ostracized in many ways. So I believe that it's really in the UK that she, I might be a bit wrong about this, but I believe it's in the UK that she found her place and the recognition that she truly, truly deserves. Yeah. In the UK and the Caribbean, of course. Angelina, do you agree with that, you know, she was definitely a very politically active member of the Communist Party of the USA in the United States.

But when she came over to Britain, she definitely saw Britain, in particular London, as another site of struggle. And she used all of her skills that she sort of accumulated in the United States to help to organize the Caribbean community in the late 50s and early 60s through her work with the West India Gazette and sort of the organization of the London Carnival because she believed that culture saw culture as empowerment culture as connection and cohesion so it's not just politics, but also culture. Culture is so very important. And so that's one of the reasons why she's so very, very important, as Olivette said, not only in the UK, but also in the United States and in the Caribbean. Luna Marson, who we must talk about, not least because she was the BBC's first black woman broadcaster.

She was born in Jamaica, died in 1965. This is an incredible life story, actually, Olivette, isn't it? Oh, I love her. I so, so love her. There's so much to say about her. There's the poetry that she was writing. There's the fierceness she was about, about political engagement again, encouraging them to be active in politics in her magazine, the magazine she has created that was

called the Cosmopolitan. So very young. And then you have, of course, the London years, where she completely died into that fight against racism and sexism, and what we would call nowadays misogynoir as well, because racism and discrimination rather than racism within the black community.

Just define misogynoir, just in case anybody listening isn't entirely sure what that means. It's discrimination against black women, not women of colour, but specifically against black women, because racism has many shapes and forms. But there's something called shadism or colorism within the black community, for example. The lighter the skin, the more access to some economic and social advantages. So it's really against dark skinned women. And Una Marson was someone who triumphed at this organisation. Not always an easy place to be a woman and certainly not, I imagine, Angelina, easy for a woman of colour at that time. No, I would say was able to thrive. Una Marson is also significant in the work she was doing with the League of Coloured Peoples

She was on the committee, that's an organisation founded by Dr Harold Moody in 1931 And she also wrote extensively for poems and opinion pieces for his newspaper called The Keys So she was sort of part of a cohort of not only Caribbean because the League of Coloured Peoples was a sort of a multi-racial organisation, but with the committee being either of Caribbean heritage or African heritage. So many significant anti-colonial leaders fighting against colonialism became part of the League of Coloured Peoples, of which she was a part. And also she was definitely within sort of that sort of cohort of people like CLR James and George Padmore. She would have been very much a part of that

grouping. So not only have we to celebrate her cultural contributions, but we also have to celebrate her political contributions as well. What do you think about the fact, Olivette, that we are now, there is a determination to acknowledge these women and their lives and achievements that perhaps didn't exist, well, let's be honest about it, even six months ago? How does that make you feel? I'm incredibly, incredibly happy. I know I should be angry about it because it's taken so long, but I'm incredibly happy and I really want the momentum to keep to keep to carry on. I suppose that would be that might be my concern that, in fact, yes, the momentum has built up. But will it will it be carried on? I want to believe it will.

If we keep on doing these kind of programmes, keep on educating, keep on sharing knowledge that is really embedded in many communities already, I think we will prevail and manage to, you know, cross those borders of racism and inequalities. Well, let's try and just pay tribute to one more, one more important woman. Angelina, this is your choice althea jones lequant tell me about her yeah althea jones lequant is just absolutely incredible and she like um olive morris like claudia jones she's part of sort of an international kind of movement coming over from trinidad in 65 to study for a PhD in biochemistry at UCL

and coming into Britain and witnessing again the treatment of black and Asian communities. And she becomes, in 1968, she becomes leader of the Black Panther movement, the British Black Panther movement. And she was part of nine activists. In 1971, she and eight others, including Darkus Howe, were arrested for incitement to riot. They had been protesting because the police kept raiding the Mangrove Restaurant, which was kind of like a cafe and a community hub in Notting Hillting hill right uh they were arrested and she and darkest took the strategy of defending themselves uh they didn't have um barristers to defend them well

darkest how was a trained barrister anyway but she they both took the the the the decision to defend themselves. And in doing so, they turned that trial, which was over 55 days, they revealed and turned the trial into a kind of like a public examination of the police's treatment of the black community. And they were acquitted. And they even got the judge to remark that police was showing evidence of racial hatred towards black people in Britain. So she really they really took that trial, which is an important trial that we should be looking at in a lot more detail, took that trial and stamped their authority on it. So they kind of took on the British state and won. Events of just the last couple of weeks, events of the last week, have taught us all,

that these struggles are still going on. Change just takes, well, you tell me, decades, centuries. Are you optimistic or pessimistic about this? I am optimistic. It takes centuries, but it takes people to keep on doing it. It's the consistency. And again, there have been people who have been consistent over centuries. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here talking about it. I believe that we will, you know, not just survive, but we will prevail against those awful, awful forms of discrimination. And let's face it, economic inequalities as well. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. We appreciate you both coming on the programme this morning. The last voice there was Olivette Otelli, Professor of History and the Memory of Slavery at Bristol University. And before that, the writer and historian Angelina Osborne.

Now, Abbie Dare was born and raised in a middle-class family in Lagos in Nigeria. Eighteen years ago, she came to live in the UK, and her first novel, The Girl with the Louding Voice, is the story of a 14-year-old girl who longs for an education, but like many others in Nigeria, is sold to become a domestic house girl. Her book is on Radio 4 from Monday, just after 12 o'clock,

and at a book at bedtime as well. She was on Woman's Hour back in March, and we're just going to play a short clip of that interview to remind you about how good she is and how good the book is and how much it's worth listening to. She was asked, what is a louding voice? There's a way of saying, I want to be heard. I do not want to be silenced. I want to

create a legacy where girls like me can be educated as well. So it's all encompassing. You've written in a kind of dialect with broken English. Why did you make that decision? I wanted to reflect some of the housemaids that I saw growing up. I spent nearly 20 years in Nigeria, and it was quite common to have young maids, young girls who weren't speaking very good English. So I wanted Adunit to navigate her own language, the English language, and to smell her smells, to see what she was seeing, and to really portray this character in the best possible way.

What concerns, though, did you have about the way a Western reading audience might read it? I did have slight concerns when I was writing it. But I was writing for myself at first. I thought, OK, I'll write this book, hear the story, understand this girl first. And then I put it into a competition, a Bat Novel Award competition, and it won that. So I think that was totally unprepared for. And so winning that gave me the assurance that the story could be understood and that everyone would be able to appreciate that.

So that allayed my concerns. Now, she does suffer sexual abuse. And when it comes to sex, these young women seem rarely to have any kind of choice. How common are the experiences you put Aduni through? When I was growing up in Nigeria, the nearly 20 years I spent there, one thing that was quite common was seeing young girls that were not very well treated, who were maids. You could see them being physically abused. Now, when I started to write the book and did my research, I found that it was quite common as well that these young girls were sexually abused by the people, especially the men

in the house that employ them. And I wanted to reflect that in the story to show that this is something that these girls do suffer. So it's quite common as well. How much did you go back to Nigeria to do your research and check that nothing had changed since you were living there? So I try to go back every year. So I wrote the book over the course of three years, and when I was writing the book, I went back quite often and speaking to people and seeing even on social media, seeing the stories shared,

the articles that I read or documenting this abuse. So it's all there to be seen and to be absorbed, sadly. How conscious are you, though, of in a way fueling some of the stereotypes that exist around Africa? What I tried to do was to try and show the two extremities so there's a there's a stereotype of poverty but I show Aduni leaving rural Nigeria where there is poverty to where she goes to Lagos and she lives in a wealthy family and sees that they educated women that there is wealth, extremes of that. So I try to have a nuanced view in the story

and to try and balance what has been put out there and portrayed out there. What was your own life like in Nigeria? It was great. I had a good childhood. I went to some of the best schools and I really had a wonderful time growing up in Nigeria. But there were things that I saw growing up that I had questions about, such as the patriarchy and the housemaids having young girls working more than, so there are 15 million children out of school in Nigeria, 60% of that are girls. And I wondered why that was the case. That is the voice of the novelist, Abby Dare, and her book is The Girl with the Louding Voice. She

was talking to Jenny there. Now, we have been looking at women in gaming over the last week, from the changing culture of gaming to how gaming can improve your mental health. This industry is so important to the country. It's worth billions. Women make up 50% of those who play, and women over 40 are among the fastest-growing group

of people engaging in smartphone, video or computer games. Jordan Erica Webber is the presenter on The Gadget Show. She hosts a podcast called Talking Simulator and she's the co-author of 10 Things Video Games Can Teach Us. Katie Goode makes virtual reality games and runs her own company and Abby Plum is a producer for the games company Electric Square. Good morning to you all. Jordan, Erica, let's start with you. Tell us about the importance of gaming to the British economy. This is a huge sector, isn't it? Absolutely. I mean, not to always talk about the money, but yes, video games are worth an

incredible amount of money. I think it was a couple of years ago they overtook both music and movies in the UK. Video games, I think, accounts for more than half of entertainment money spent in the UK. The figures that I have from 2019 is £5.3 billion spent on games and game-related stuff that year in the UK. And games added nearly £3 billion to the UK economy as well. At the moment, the situation, particularly for young people and employment, looks, to put it mildly, difficult. And here is an area where actually there may well be jobs in the future. This is a growth area, surely. Absolutely. I mean, one thing that lockdown has shown us is how important games are to people, especially people who are sadly out of work at the moment and who for a long time weren't able to really leave their houses.

People were turning to games and not just to distract themselves, but also keep in touch with people. A lot of my friends and I were hanging out in video games when we couldn't hang out in real life, especially Animal Crossing. Yeah. OK. Animal Crossing. Why does that appeal to you? Oh, it's just, I mean, it's just wonderful. There's something to do every day. It changes with the seasons. They listen to the community and add new features. And it's just, I mean, it's a game about fishing and catching bugs and growing flowers and decorating house. I mean, what isn't there to love? So it's actually, it's one of the, would you describe it as one of the more creative games? I'm trying not to be gendered in my questions here, but you know what I'm getting at.

Absolutely. It definitely doesn't abide by the stereotype that a lot of people have of what video games are. It's not a game where you shoot people in the face. It is a game where you hang out with your friends and you collect things and you decorate your house and you collect outfits for your wardrobe. I mean, that's the most important thing to me at the moment is growing my flowers and buying lots of dresses. Okay. Katie, it's so hard to avoid stereotypes when you're having a conversation about gaming, but I want to know about your working life

and why you enjoy what you do so much. Sure. So I've been in the industry since 2008. So in this grand scheme of things, it's quite a long time now. And about six years ago, my husband and I basically decided to do it alone and go and be creative at our own company. So I work now in Cornwall next to the beach with my newborn son, husband next to my side, hiring freelancers all around the country. And you do describe your working day because that just sounds absolutely idyllic.

It can't be that good, surely? Well, with the nursery not being a thing at the moment, it's a little bit more complicated. But otherwise, yeah, it's getting up. It's looking at what is existing on the market. So that is sometimes playing other people's games. But it's trying out new things ourselves, especially when it comes to VR, where it's so new, like we're learning a whole new language again. And then doing lots of programming and just working on like interesting gameplay ideas, really.

And Abby, when you were at school, how seriously did, for example, your teachers or careers advisors take a working life in the games industry, do you think? I mean, that's an interesting question for me to answer because I was homeschooled. So I didn't actually start mainstream education until I was 16. And what happened then? Well, I mean, I was fortunate enough to go to a great college. So I went to Confetti. it's in Nottingham, and it was all creative courses there. So even though at the time I was studying to work in TV and film, I was still exposed to the games industry

and the opportunities of going to work in the games industry. I know that's not the case for everybody, but for me personally, I had positive exposure to it from quite a young age. that's not the case for everybody. But for me personally, I had positive exposure to it from quite a young age. And it wasn't a world that you were frightened of. You wouldn't have felt intimidated by any aspect of it. No, no, I didn't. But I think because I was, again, in an environment where I got to see what went into the behind the scenes of making games. And I got to talk to people who were training and studying to work in the industry, it did not seem intimidating. But again, I know I'm fortunate to

have had that experience. I think if you have been in a position where you've not been exposed to it, it seems much scarier than it actually is. But it's a very, very welcoming industry. As soon as you sort of do get a peek behind the curtain. Yeah, it's interesting that you say it's welcoming because you all three of you know that there are there have been allegations about the treatment of women in this environment. Katie, have you ever come up against, well, something worse than being discouraged? Let me put it that way uh definitely uh it's got better as i've been in industry but my first job uh i did experience a very like i guess women womanizers i experienced literally a stalker um and like even when i went to show off my game at

a american games event uh someone literally didn't believe i made it they were like oh you're just Like, even when I went to show off my game at an American Games event, someone literally didn't believe I made it. They were like, oh, you're just the booth babe. What does that mean? When you have a very attractive, busty-looking woman showing off, say, a racing car, you know, they sort of pour themselves over it. They did the same thing in games for quite a while. And that, I'm afraid, Jordan, is the image that those of us who don't know much about the world probably have of it.

Now, what are we supposed to think? Yeah, I mean, the games industry has a lot to answer for historically because of kind of where it came from and how it's grown and its relative age compared to other industries. I mean, we have been around for a while now. And I think the thing to learn from the fact that all these stories are coming out is that it means that the games industry is reckoning with itself and with that history and change is happening. I mean, with the recent Me Too allegations, people have been trying to come forward with this kind of thing for years, and they haven't really been listened to as much as they are now. This year, companies are actually listening to women and to non-binary people and gender minorities who are coming forward with these stories.

And they're acting, which is really important because that wouldn't have happened a few years ago. No. So you're taking heart from it, if anything. And of course, we've got to be honest about it. Radio and television and the film industry, every part of the creative sector has issues of this nature, doesn't it? Absolutely. And I think that reflects, unfortunately, the disparity between kind of how many women are in these industries compared to how many men there are. So recently, UKEE and the University of Sheffield did this diversity industry census where they tried to figure out what proportion of the industry was, I mean, all sorts of different things, what class background, what race, what gender, what sexuality. And they found that about 28% of people working in the UK games industry are women. And that is

exactly the same as the figure for film and television and radio, funnily enough. Yeah, that is, I mean, Abby is interesting. And in fact, I think Abby and Jordan, you both live and work in Leamington Spa. Abbey tell me about that. Yeah so I work for Electric Square here in Leamington Spa it's a new branch of Electric Square we have a studio in Brighton and we have a studio in Singapore. I've been working in the games industry in Leamington for a year now so I did work at another studio here previously so I was at Lab 42 Games. Leamington's fantastic it's got such a great community of people here that do work in games one of the best decisions of my life was moving to Leamington to continue my career in games because

I've met so many wonderful people here. And Jordan you are there as well aren't you? Yes absolutely I moved here about a decade ago to go to university at Warwick and then never wanted to leave again. And there is such a thriving gaming community here. It's just something I had no idea about. So it is a place where games are made and people from the gaming industry choose to make their life. And Katie is living the dream in Cornwall.

So there you go. I mean, it gives you some idea of where you can be to make your life in gaming. Thank you all very much. Really appreciate you talking to me this morning. Thank you. I hope that spurred a few people on because I appreciate that for young people at the moment, any sort of working life seems a little bit of a distant dream, but there is at least one good option for you. Thanks to everybody who took part in that discussion about women and gaming. Jordan, Erica Weber, Katie Good and Abby Plum were my guests there.

And I honestly did not know that Leamington Spa was where it all happened in gaming. I got the sack in Leamington Spa. So it's one of the reasons I don't like to dwell on that particular fine Warwickshire town. But nevertheless, it's good to know it's come up in the world since a certain advertising agency dispensed with my services. But it's a long time ago now and I need to dwell on matters closer to home. So thanks to everybody who's emailed the programme today about what they heard. Jill says it was good to hear about your black female activists on the programme today. I think these women are so important to our history.

Let's have more, please, because so many are not acknowledged. How about a short piece on Pauline Henriquez, the first black actress on British television? Chris says, as you talk about struggles continuing and being optimistic about the pace of change, can I remind you that in 1975, we women were supposed to get equal pay? Well, millions of women are still fighting for that cause. There is no quick fix. I am the grandniece of a suffragette, a working-class girl from Yorkshire, and I've always been aware of the fight.

As the mother of two women, I'm aware that this fight goes on and my three wonderful granddaughters will be raised to continue to slay the dragons which blight societies and do none of us a service. Until programmes start talking about human rights rights and these issues are exactly that, I feel that my grandchildren will still be having these conversations when they're my age. Please continue to raise issues which affect all of us. On the subject of Eileen Flynn, a listener here says, That was lovely. I was in tears listening to it.

You're an inspiration, Eileen. I was one proud Irish girl listening to you as I speak. And Karen says, please give my hearty congratulations to Eileen, the traveller who is now an Irish senator. What an achievement. On email, Gerry, well done in celebrating the appointment of a member of the travelling community to the Irish Shanad. But shame you apologise for the

sound of her child at a time when so many, mainly women, are trying to juggle work with childcare. I'm disappointed and shocked. Roslyn said, it's not just that we don't mind baby noises in the background. I loved hearing Billy's noises and I don't think they should be

commented on at all. Things like that are integral to most women's lives. And if they're remarked on, it just singles out mothers as being different to other interviewees. OK, this is one of those areas where you can't win. I think there is no I didn't I suppose the reason I mentioned it was because I didn't want Eileen to be put off. And I don't want to give away any showbiz secrets here, but I had talked to Eileen before the programme started, and she was a bit worried that Billy might make noise during the programme. I wanted to put her at her ease and tell her not to worry about it. But we do have listeners who do like to be alerted to noises off and like to have them explained. So look, you can never get this right. Our audience varies from those who are incredibly tolerant of such things, rightly, I would suggest, and those who perhaps

are not so tolerant. So I have to bear everybody in mind. I want to read this from Samantha, who's the winner of today's email from a foreign place contest, which is unofficial and only I'm running it. She says, I am in California and I moved there relatively recently. I've always enjoyed Woman's Hour and I now never miss the podcast. I can't listen live because of the time difference. I'm married to an American and Woman's Hour has always given me my fix of the UK. But since COVID has caused us all to be in lockdown here in Silicon Valley, the programme has become something I really

look forward to more than ever. The guests are interesting, the discussions and the ideas explored are brilliant. I'm at home with a two-year-old, it has been really challenging and I just wanted you to know how much enjoyment and joy I get from the programme every day. I'm sure you get letters like this by the dozen, so I thought one more can't hurt. Well we do get some appreciative emails Samantha, but we also get a lot carping. So actually, it's really good to hear that you are satisfied by what Woman's Hour's podcast offers you. The phrase at the beginning of the podcast is, This is the BBC is my son's prompt to get in his high chair.

OK, Edward is your son. He's only two and I'm glad he's being brought up the right way with Women's Hour. And obviously, if you get the podcast internationally, I know that is how it starts with somebody saying

very, very portentously, this is the BBC. So I'm glad that you appreciate what we're doing. Thank you very much for that, Samantha. And best of luck to you and your family in California. You can enter my unofficial contest wherever you are in the world by just emailing us via the website bbc.co.uk slash Women's Hour. We're back live with the programme on the radio,

three minutes past 10 Monday morning. We're talking to the novelist Dorothy Coombson. We'll also discuss double standards when it comes to offenders. And what else are we doing? Oh, the UAE's mission to Mars, female-dominated space exploration, debated on Monday's programme. Join us in the podcast or on the radio. We don't care. See you then. Hello, I'm Dr Hannah Fry. And I'm Dr Adam Rutherford.

And we present the curious cases of Rutherford and Fry. That's me and her. Certainly do. And every week, what we do, we take a listener question, an everyday mystery, if you will, and we try and investigate it. Using the combined powers of science, books and occasionally the internet. Sometimes we just look it up. But anyway, we are back with a new series that's investigating queries like...

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by subscribing to The Curious Case of Rutherford and Fry on BBC Sounds. Or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

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