Woman's Hour - Olivia Colman, Undercover policing inquiry, Afua Hirsch, Lottie Jackson

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

Actress Olivia Colman is the patron of the arts charity Tender, having previously played a survivor of domestic violence in the film Tyrannosaur. She speaks to Woman’s Hour alongside Tender CEO Susie McDonald about the work they’re doing to try and prevent domestic violence. A special police unit used to spy on left wing political and activist groups was not justified and should have been disbanded in its early days. That’s one of the conclusions of the first part of a judge led inquiry into undercover policing, which covers the years 1968 to 1982. Sir John Mitting, Chair of the inquiry said most groups infiltrated by the Met’s Special Demonstration Squad posed no threat. His report details tactics such as forming sexual relationships while undercover and using dead children’s names to create false identities. Hayley Hassall is joined by ‘Alison’ who had a five year relationship with an undercover officer, and by Harriet Wistrich, who is Director of the Centre for Women’s Justice and part of the legal team that represented women in the inquiry.The writer, editor and disability activist Lottie Jackson has written a memoir called See Me Rolling. In it, she discusses the way that society views disability and the innate prejudices that we have. She also talks about fashion and how important it is in letting her express her identity. She joins Hayley.The journalist Afua Hirsch has made a new series of Africa Rising for BBC 2, about an African cultural renaissance. Afua visits three very different countries; Morocco, Nigeria and South Africa, and interviews young creatives who are expressing new ideas which are gathering momentum across the continent. Afua joins Hayley to talk about the female artists she met and their inspiring visions.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Today on the programme I'll be joined by Oscar-winning actress Olivia Colman, who's helping a charity to try to prevent domestic violence by running acting workshops with young people in schools and getting them to engage with and recognise abusive relationships in the hope that they can avoid them in the future. I'll also be speaking to Lottie Jackson,

the fashion journalist and disability rights activist whose witty, frank and open, honest conversation about life with a disability promises to have us all laughing and crying at the same time. Plus we're talking about African art and culture with the journalist Afua Hirsch, who has visited three very different countries to meet some of the young female creatives who are pushing the boundaries of their societies to reach more international recognition. And talking of round-the-world trips, the Australian Tourism Board have today announced

that they're extending their working visas for Brits to age 35. They've also revealed that 45% of us in the UK wish we had taken a gap year in later life. But one in 10 of us say we're too old to start again. So which camp are you in? I want to hear from you this morning about the gap years we all wish we'd taken. And are we ever too old to just pack it all up and move to another country for a year or two? Now I know the Woman's Hour listeners are bit by now and I know you will have had some thoughts or maybe experiences of this. So have you had a gap year later in life?

Have you just moved abroad maybe? Where did you go? What did you do? Or maybe you're thinking about it and the extension of the Australian visa tempts you. Please let me know. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, we're at Women's Hour. And you can email us through our website. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And terms and conditions can be found on our website. But first up on the programme this morning, we're looking into the special police unit

that was used to spy on left-wing political and activist groups, which was not justified and should have been disbanded in its early days. That's the conclusion of the first report of the inquiry into undercover policing, which covers the years 1968 to 1982. Well, Sir John Mitting, chair of the inquiry, said most groups infiltrated by the Metropolitan Police's special demonstration squad pose no threat. But his report did detail tactics such as forming sexual relationships while undercover and using dead children's names to create false identities. Well, I'm joined now

by a woman we're calling Alison, who has had a five-year relationship with an undercover officer, and by Harriet Wistrich, who is Director of the Centre of Women's Justice and parts of the legal team that represents women in the inquiry. Alison, I'm going to come to you first, because you are one of the core participants in the inquiry. What was your reaction to the findings of this first report? Overwhelmingly, we feel it's a major victory. We've been campaigning for over 10 years now to raise awareness of this policing scandal. And Sir John Mitting has agreed with our arguments, essentially, that the privacy intrusions were unlawful and the effectively trespass. These officers came into our homes with no warrant, in some cases came into our beds. I think, disappointingly, there's no reference to misogyny or sexism

or institutional sexism in the report. And essentially, I should never have met Mark Jenner and the rest of us who were exploited and violated by these officers should never have met them. The unit should have been disbanded in the early 1970s. The report begs a lot of questions. The optimist in me hopes that the final report, which is due in 2026,

will pull out some of the findings to do with institutional racism, institutional sexism. And also there are other elements of witness statements, such as Celia Stubbs' witness statement, and others that were perhaps not given as much credence, as not foregrounded as important as they were. But overwhelmingly, I think we have to say this is a major victory. And from my point of view, I should never have met this man.

He should never have been recruited to this unit the unit should never have existed by the 1980s onwards and I think there's a very strong argument now for the police to hand over our files because they should never have been written they were gross intrusions of privacy. They were documenting people's private lives, their personal lives. And it's time now for some kind of transparency, some kind of truth from the police. They apologise. They've apologised several times. But actually, we need some fundamental change in our society because this is an assault on democracy. They talk about the left-wing activists being subversive.

The reality is it's the police and the Home Office who've signed off the annual reports each year. It's the establishment essentially that has subverted democracy because the people who were spied upon were people who essentially were campaigning for a better world. They're progressive groups that were spied upon. And you are, am I right, you're due to give evidence probably next year about your own case. Can you tell us a bit about what happened to you and especially what those dates were compared to this report so i was in a relationship with mark jenner from or who i knew as mark cassidy from 1995 to 2000 um in a way today is

this week and this report at this stage is really not about me or individual women who've had relationships with officers in fact it's really more about how that culture of institutionalised misogyny and sexism was established in those early years and how those managers and the hierarchy, the police hierarchy and the institutions that supported that hierarchy, how they essentially facilitated and enabled the human rights violations that, frankly, only get worse in the future years. From 1982 until the unit was disbanded in 2008, it only gets worse. And from what we've seen,

or from what I've seen, I should probably say, from the inquiry hearings that I've listened to, I attended most in person, and from absolutely the way the police have behaved towards our legal case that we brought first of all in 2011 what we can see is that essentially the police protect themselves. We're brought up and I you know we're brought up as kids to think that police protect the public the reality is they protect themselves and their own reputation. When you say that you know it was ignored for so many years and it wasn't until 2015 that Home Secretary at the time, Theresa May, announced there would be this public inquiry in response to the independent reviews. How does it feel to have that publicly recognised eight years on? And I suppose, has your fight been worth it? You say you're glad there's been an apology, but is that enough? And does that help what you've been through?

Does it even recognise what you've been through? The way we've individually coped with what we've been through is to do with, you know, is linked to our families and our own collective support groups and networks. I think the issue really for us is now about who are the officers? Who are these officers in the inquiry now who have anonymity? And what did they go on to do? Because we saw from the first tranche of hearings that the officer, Vince Harvey, Vince Miller, went on to be the director of the National Crime and Intelligence Service,

having had four sexual relationships when he was undercover. So we need a change in the law. I mean, the government passed what's commonly known as the CHIS Act under the COVID period, so it didn't get much coverage. But that has essentially put no limits on what undercover agents, police spies, security services, it's put no limits on what they can do. And we're told that the Human Rights Act will be a protection for us against those human rights violations.

But what we saw from Kate Wilson's case, Kate was one of the eight of us who brought the first case and was able to pursue her case in the Investigatory Powers Tribunal. But what we've seen from her case is that the Human Rights Act did not protect her. And everybody who has had a relationship with an undercover police officer, of which there are several, after 2000, when the Human Rights Act came into effect, was not protected. So what we want to hear now at this stage is,

we want to hear something from parliamentarians, we want to hear from decision makersarians we want to hear um from decision makers about how the law can be changed because it's this cannot happen to other women the reason we've brought this the reason we brought our case in the first place the reason we're still campaigning on this issue is because we feel so strongly that it is a you you know, it's so egregious, it's so wrong, it's such a fundamental breach of women's rights that there's nothing actually legally to stop it happening again, despite the apologies. And we will get into that. But can I go to you for a moment, Harriet, because you're part of the legal team that's represented a group of these women who are going

through the inquiry. What's your response to the judge's remarks at this moment? Well, I think Alison has spoken very eloquently around what the outcome is so far. The focus has been more generally on the overview of this undercover policing unit and very importantly, he has concluded that this unit should never have been allowed to continue in the way it was and it was totally disproportionate, unjustified and unlawful in many respects what it was doing and it should have been disbanded very early on. That is really important. it's also important to note that he has

explicitly stated he hasn't yet drawn conclusions about the issue of undercover officers forming relationships because of course there's different trenches to go through isn't that's correct this is a this is the first part and in fact um i've worked with allison and and a number of other women since 2011 uh when they first came forward and it's in fact their fight that has blown this whole thing open it could have remained secret forever if those women hadn't come forward and battled together but that makes me ask do you think there's more women out there who have had sexual relationships with officers without question without question I mean at that point at the very very beginning, it was Mark Kennedy, and they said he was a rogue officer.

Then more came forward, and suddenly in the case we brought, there were five rogue officers, and then gradually more and more women came forward. At the time of the inquiry, I think we're now up to 50, is it, over 50? There are 27 women who are members of the core participants in the inquiry, but we know of over 50 women who've been deceived like this. So that is what we know of. And clearly, if the inquiry were able to publish all the names,

all the cover names at least, of all the undercover officers in this unit and other units, we would know of many more. And I think it's also important to say that that this this inquiry so far has focused on the undercover investigations of protest groups but of course undercover policing operates in all sorts of other areas including in you know infiltrating criminal gangs and so on and we know we know nothing yet about that that and whether this practice happens there. But in respect of this inquiry, I think the other really important thing that's come out so far is that essentially all but three groups of scores of groups that were spied on in this early period. A meeting has accepted, posed no, you know,

there was no justification for spying on those groups at all. And it's so fundamentally undemocratic. For example, the Women's Liberation Movement was spied on. A group called the Women's Liberation Front and then an undercover officer went to a number of the early women's liberation conferences uh to gather intelligence for what purpose and make kind of very homophobic remarks about lesbians and stuff when in her in her report back so this is this is looking at a whole range of different issues and a whole systematic range

that was used at that time as well. I just want to read out the Metropolitan Police's response to that. Their commander, John Saville, says, We know that enormous distress has been caused, and I want to take this opportunity to reiterate the apologies made to women deceived by officers into sexual relationships, to the families of deceased children whose identities were used by officers, and to those who suffered a miscarriage of justice because of the actions of the SDS officers.

I want to reassure the public that undercover policing has undergone radical reform over the years with greater regulation, professional codes of practice and judicial oversight. The way in which undercover policing was conducted in the 1970s bears no relation to how it is conducted today. Alison, I can hear you sniggering. Harriet, you're shaking your head. What do you make of what the Met says? Well, two things. One is that we know that this practice has been continuing up until very recently.

Women have come forward who were victims much more recently. So clearly it's still going on. In fact, I think as the undercover inquiry will expose, things got a lot worse as things developed. And as this unit, which was hidden, hidden from view, from even within the Metropolitan Police, it had what, and I think the important thing is to also look at the continuity from those early days to what we see

in the Met today and what was exposed in the Louise Casey report which is this these elitist units within the Met police which allow allowed the development of a kind of culture of some of the worst forms of misogyny so if if these units don't go challenge if this this kind of culture of some of the worst forms of misogyny. So if these units don't go challenge, if this kind of behaviour that was happening in one unit, we now today see played out in the parliamentary and diplomatic unit, which Cousins and Carrick were members of, we see in other specialist units in particular. And so certainly anyone working around uh policing and and and misogyny

and and racism is not going to be in the slightest bit reassured unfortunately by by those and of course when people say to you allison you know it was a different time in the 70s what do you make of that well it makes me laugh really as if there were no, as if nobody had any kind of moral compass in the 1970s, as if feminism didn't exist in the 1970s. The idea that things are different now is frankly laughable, given that some of the women that we know who had contact still with undercover officers, that was in 2018. When we first brought the case in 2011, the stories were still live. Those men were not you know, not long out of some of the women's lives. It's just not believable, I'm afraid. And it goes to my earlier point that the police are trying to fundamentally protect themselves. And that's

what that statement is about, I think. And of course, your fight has been a long time coming, and it's still going on. But what change do you want to make in the law? What change do you want to bring about so that what happened to you cannot happen to other people now or in the future? We want an amendment to the Covert Human Intelligence Sources Criminal Conduct Act. It's quite a mouthful, the CHIS Act. We want an amendment to that that put in place limits to what undercover or covert human intelligence sources, undercover police are able to do. And we would like it to be specified that an undercover police officer on duty cannot have sexual relationships with members of the public. Thank you, Alison. Thank you for your time. Thank you for Harriet for

coming in and good luck with the fight. I know it's still continuing for a few years to come, but thank you for coming on Woman's Hour and explaining it so well to us. Thank you, Alison. Thank you for your time. Thank you for Harriet for coming in and good luck with the fight. I know it's still continuing for a few years to come, but thank you for coming on Woman's Hour and explaining it so well to us. Thank you. Thank you. Moving on now, how do you talk to young children about domestic violence and sexual assault? Well, the arts charity Tender aims to introduce these topics through drama workshops, which they say allow young children

and teenagers to rehearse for real life scenarios and develop an awareness that will serve them throughout their lives. Well, award-winning actress Olivia Colman is the patron of the charity, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary. Olivia joined me alongside the CEO, Susie MacDonald, to talk about the work that they're doing. Now, having previously portrayed a survivor of domestic violence in the film Tyrannosaur in 2011, I started by asking Olivia if playing that role of Hannah in that film had impacted her. It did. I think prior to that, I would have asked all the same questions,

like, why don't they leave? But misunderstanding the threat. So I did some research through Refuge, incredible charity helping women and children who are survivors of domestic violence. And through that, I think I got slightly obsessed with what, why, why is this still happening? Why is there not more being done? And those charities are invaluable

at that end of the scale. And then it was a mutual friend of ours, Susie and mine, who said, my friend Susie, you should meet her. I think you might be interested in what she does. And we met, fell in love. And what Susie does is, my husband likens it to the film Minority Report. So you go before things happen, you try to fix it before it's broken.

And this is what Susie does and her incredible team. It was a no-brainer for me. I'm very very very passionate about it and I can't believe it's not an absolute must for every single child in every single school but we're working on it I can see that and obviously you mentioned refuge there there are so many charities that do things to help women most mostly women after this situation has happened but to preempt it and get in there first, it seems like, how has that not happened already? Can you imagine if it doesn't happen?

Did you speak to survivors as part of your research? No, I actually, I remember when I went to refuge, they gave me case studies that were so shocking. If you put it on a film, you wouldn't believe it. And so upsetting. And I went, I don't think I'd be any help talking to a survivor. That's not what they need, some weepy actress turning up. So I just did a lot of research through the women who help the other women and through the case studies and then a

big dollop of imagination I did a training day with Susie and her team which I will never forget it was incredible and you think I think I've got a handle on this I think I know but endless things come up during the day and you go, oh, yeah, that is. Yes, I can see that now. What do you mean? Like what? Well, there are lots of things like that idea of what we call commonly held beliefs about the issue. So people might say if I was in that situation, I would just leave. You know, if my partner hit me or was cruel to me, I would just leave.

I wouldn't put up with it. But of course, those relationships start somewhere where there is love and there's trust and there's some affection and therefore when the first instance of abuse or violence or unkindness happens people may go oh maybe that's a one-off maybe yeah maybe it's a one-off and they've apologized and I was being a bit grumpy that day so maybe it's my fault so there's a kind ofoff and they've apologised and I was being a bit grumpy that day, so maybe it's my fault. So there's a kind of process of taking responsibility that victims will often go through. And it's really important for us, therefore, to say anybody experiencing abuse, it's not their fault.

And these workshops do that, do they? Can you talk me through how they work and how the children get involved in those scenarios so our kind of normal program is going into a school and that might be a primary school or a secondary school we work over a two-day kind of intensive project with a group of say 30 children children or young people so that's usually just a class a mainstream in that class, therefore, there will be children who the school are aware have got some problems perhaps at home. There will be children who are really into drama and really loving the idea of participating and talking. There'll be children who like to just observe and sit back a little bit. And then there will be some that the school

hasn't yet spotted, may be quite vulnerable and might be having some problems either at home or in their own relationships so we're gentle and we're playful and we set up at the beginning of the first day the opportunity to create a space where the young people can feel really safe to play so we'll do lots of drama games and all of the things that we're doing is about how you navigate relationships so in a primary school we're talking things that we're doing is about how you navigate relationships so in a primary school we're talking about friendships we're talking about how do you feel about your your friend when they maybe say an unkind thing to you is that the kind of behavior that you want in a friendship so the children are being able to find the language to navigate how they have

positive interactions and also to learn to have the voice to be able to say I'm not comfortable with what you're doing to me and it actually it's my right to be able to say please stop it and and to choose friendship groups and friends that make them happy and then as you go into secondary school those skills and that language can then inform how they have more intimate and romantic relationships. So you do obviously start at such a really young age. Are you not worried that you could be introducing a concept that they have no idea about or a trauma that they didn't need to ever witness to children who wouldn't have otherwise known about it?

No, I think because it's age appropriate. So as Susie said, it's about friendships. So if you're like a little group of three, it can be tricky for small kids. And how do you feel when those two whisper together? Feel sad. And then those two girls go, I didn't realise that made you feel sad. So all of this, just recognising your behaviour

has an impact on other people. So it's something that all children will recognise. They've all had difficulties within friendships or I wanted to play football and they didn't want me to play. It's not at all introducing something which is horrific to them. It's a gentle, beautiful easing in of how to be kind and thoughtful and that your actions have implications. And then it gears up as the kids get older.

And I think when we first began 20 years ago, in a way we were focusing on preventing people becoming victims. But actually, what we're also doing is preventing people from becoming perpetrators. So it's not just about saying you have a right to your partner or your friendship group, your friends being kind and respectful to you. You have a responsibility to behave in that way towards other people. Well, that was one of the things I was going to ask, because we know that predominantly victims of domestic abuse are women. But obviously you don't want to alienate the boys in these workshops and the men.

So how do you include them and not create them as the perpetrators? Well, because they're taking part. And what's beautiful about it being drama is they can go, OK, well, it's not me, I can pretend to be someone else. And so if they have experienced anything in their lives lives they don't have to share it with everybody they can do it through pretending to be someone else or enacting how it might be for someone else so these boys get to see the impact on the girls the impact on other boys and we did the tender awards last night but there was a lovely quote from this little boy,

maybe 10 or 12, I can't remember, saying, this has made me want to learn to be a good boy and a good man to women and girls. It has an incredibly positive impact. And Olivia, you have two sons yourself. Is this something you talk to them about? Do you think it's important to raise this issue that you feel so deeply about?

Absolutely. Yeah, it should be a dinner table conversation and how do you do that as a mum of a son as well how do you do that without making them feel alienated by it or scared of it gosh I mean you know I think particularly when my boys were younger and playing you know it's just make sure you're kind or did they want to play or ask them to play or if they didn't ask you to play how'd that make you feel just talking about how you feel kind. Or did they want to play or ask them to play? Or if they didn't ask you to play, how did that make you feel? Just talking about how you feel about things. And when they start to embark on sort of more grown-up relationships,

the word consent is always brought up. Make sure it's equal. Make sure there's no alcohol involved. Make sure you always feel like you're doing the right thing and make sure you are kind to each other, you are equal and you are considerate. And those conversations come up a lot in our house. Yeah, and I think boys can be sort of boxed into a sort of category of behaviours that feel that that's just how boys are.

So this sort of notion of it's just boys being boys, this sort of the term toxic masculinity, and probably why there are certain social media influencers who can kind of tap into the gap in that box where boys see a version of what's expected of them to be. Some of them probably do like that idea, but many, many boys are thinking, well, I want to have healthy, respectful relationships,

but I'm not sure I've got the language or the tools to be able to do that and how will I be perceived by my peers if I'm kind and tender? Will I get bullied or laughed at? So it's finding spaces where boys aren't boxed into, you're either a perpetrator or you're a woman. There's so many other things they can be. On this programme, we talk a lot about the social media influences towards especially boys like Andrew Tate or the fact that there's more prevalence of hardcore porn available as a parent and running this charity.

Is that something that you've come across or it worries you about our future generations? My boys are very gentle boys and hooray. And they have a dad who's an incredible role model, who's thoughtful, kind, heroic, gentle man. Porn also should be a dinner table topic, which I know is difficult for many people. But I actually had a friend who said something great about this. She said to her kids, have you seen Fast and Furious? Would you drive like that on a road? And then she sort of, which I thought, that's genius. the sex you might encounter is not the sort of sex that people want to have and it's not normal and everyday and loving and don't imagine

for a moment that's what you have to do that is not where to learn about sex from yeah I think finding those kind of analogies so that you can kind of gently touch on on the subject without kind of launching into a if you see it this is what you'll be but that horse is bolted children are accessing hardcore pornography and we're seeing disclosures even in primary schools of children talking about choking and they weren't talking about choking five ten years ago as part of relationship behavior and they're bringing that up without us even mentioning anything to do with pornography so we have to be really really mindful that good education that's well informed well evidenced and is introduced to children in a way that they can feel very safe at exploring because obviously in

any group of children there's a real range of different experiences different kind of levels of maturity so we must be very safe and gentle, but we can't avoid the fact that children are accessing things because even if, as a parent, you've got all the security checks on your children's phones, tablets and so on, all they have to do is go on a play date and... A friend shows them something. Yeah.

Once they've seen it, they can't unsee it. And it's not just social media, isn't it? We have seen reports that sexual offences in schools have increased by 255% over the past four years. As a parent and people who work with children in these projects, how does that make you feel? And is that one of the reasons you're doing this? I mean, it's also to do with logging it. So it may not be that there's actually been an increase in those behaviours. There probably has. But the good thing about that statistic is that young people, so often girls, are feeling more confident to

report it. And schools are beginning to feel more confident about how they then deal with that. But that's quite tricky for them as well, because if they've got a boy as a potential perpetrator of something and a girl who is the victim, they have a duty of care to both children. And so it's very difficult. And then social media plays out and both parties maybe have their story kind of splashed across their social media networks. And that's awful.

And what has been the reaction from schools and parents about the workshops you're doing? It's been universally incredible. And there was one comment I remembered from previous awards, because that's when you get to see how it's gone that year. One school in South London said they had a 60% drop in negative behaviours recorded in the school after their workshop. And I kind of want to tell everybody that, you see, it really works.

And so many letters, a letter from a mum to you saying, thank you, I got my daughter back, because she got into a group of people and she was sort of felt out of her depth, she became angry and withdrawn. She realised they're not serving me as friends, I don't need to be here. She had the courage to go, I don't want that. And I just don't know why we're having to still try and, you know, just implement it.

It has to happen. It has to, the knock-on effect in so many parts of your life. If you know that you're worthy of love, that you can be loved, that you can love other people, I mean, your life becomes a much clearer path if you can experience those feelings. And of course, our listeners will be curious. What projects have you got coming up next? What can we see you in? Well, I haven't started filming yet,

but the next thing is Paddington 3, which has just been announced. I've been desperate to tell everybody. I'm so excited. That is very exciting news. I'm just excited to see the band sing Welcome to London and the Curly Houses. Yeah, the Curly Houses.

Yeah, that's going to be absolutely brilliant. Well done. We can't wait to see that. And when will that be expected to be out? Oh, not for a very long time. A hundred years a hundred years oh and wonka wonka is coming out that'll be christmas well that was olivia coleman and suzy mcdonald there from the charity tender now lots of you have been getting in touch with your gap year stories or your later in life gap year stories i'm going to call them lap year stories um but we've got a message here from Mo who says at the age of 53 I found myself unexpectedly single and living alone after my

youngest offspring moved in with her then boyfriend I saw a window of opportunity between caring for my kids and caring for my parents and I jumped through it and bought around the world tickets I packed a backpack and traveled through South America, New Zealand and Asia. Best thing I ever did and changed me completely. I was meant to go with friends, but when they dropped out, I decided to go alone. And that was the best decision ever. I met so many fabulous people and memories to last a lifetime. The grandkids think I'm the coolest Nana ever. Thanks for that, Mo. Another one here from Ted. He says, when my wife retired from teaching at age 60, she sat down and planned

the round the world trip she'd always wanted to do. So on April 2000, I took six months off work and we backpacked around the world. Yvonne now has dementia. And luckily before that surfaced, we'd put together an eight by four college of photos, collage of photos, postcards, tickets and other stuff as a permanent memory. What an amazing memory that'll be Ted. And Bea's emailed to say the husband and I took a gap year aged 39 to 40 by the end of nine years unsuccessful infertility journey. It was the best thing. The round the world, westwards, young enough to backpack, do long walks, rough it a bit and enough money to go for experiences of a lifetime. At 50, I've just

got rheumatoid arthritis, so couldn't have managed a retirement trip now. But then we were also caring for our parents. So looking back at the diaries, photos and paintings is a real treasure. Well, keep those stories coming in because I knew you'd be good at this. I knew you'd have some amazing stories for me and you've lived up to it. It's absolutely fantastic and some really life-changing memories that are going on there as well. But next I want to move on to my next guest who's a fashion journalist and disability rights activist Lottie Jackson. Lottie has a muscle weakness disability and has written a memoir called See Me Rolling. It's an honest and witty collection of essays and stories around Lottie's life and the way that perceptions of disability have impacted her and others around her. Well, she writes about school, education, sex, romance, work, and of course, fashion.

Well, I spoke to Lottie, and before you hear our conversation, I should explain that due to the lack of physical strength of Lottie's voice, it's sometimes hard for her to make herself heard or to speak for a long time. So Lottie's answers are voiced by the actor Tamaryn Payne, who narrated the audio version of her new book as well. Well, Lottie was there when we spoke and she was typing her responses to my questions, which then Tamaryn said out loud. So I first asked Lottie to explain how her disabilities impact her on a day-to-day basis. Since birth, I've had a generalised muscle weakness condition. This is a rare, non-progressive condition affecting my physical strength.

For a long time, this condition didn't pose many constraints on my day-to-day life. But just as I was approaching adulthood, I faced several years of severe yet intermittent illness requiring long spells and intensive care. This has impacted my mobility and stamina. Getting around has become more challenging and I'm dependent on places being easily accessible. It has also affected the strength of my voice. So I sometimes find it hard to make myself heard or speak at length. I think at one point you say this book is a chance for me to make sense of what I've gained and who I've become so I suppose what I want to know is is what have you gained and who have you become through writing this book? I think the personal revelations that run throughout my memoir

are definitely my favourite part of the book. In some ways, writing it has been unexpectedly life-changing. I would never deny that having a disability brings its frustrations and challenges, but I also now know that my disability has shaped me in ways that are fundamentally positive. It has given me an irreplaceable outlook on the world, whether it's my imagination, problem-solving skills, ability to find humour and beauty in unexpected places, or feeling empathy. These are all qualities that have arisen from navigating the world with a disability. I think we forget that the fleshy body is only one part of who we are. In reality, there is meaning and adventure to be found far beyond the material constraints of the body.

I think undoing that internalised ableism has, as I said, been a bit life-changing for me. And that comes across so well in the book. It's very funny in places, not necessarily because of what's happening, but because of the way you use language to describe it. I mean, doing the 10 point turns in shopping centres and your description of fashionistas and entering their unapproachable offices. But it also highlights the way that most of society is built for able bodies. Why did you decide to write it in this way? Comedy is something that fills me with hope. I know that if you can laugh at something and shift the focus, it removes the sense of despair. You are free to create your own narrative around a situation, light replacing dark. But as a writer, I believe humour is an incredibly powerful tool, especially when writing about sometimes taboo subjects like disability. One of the quotes at

the beginning of my book is by Mark Twain, who wrote that humour is humanity's greatest weapon. Against the assault of laughter, nothing can stand. That philosophy runs throughout my book, whether I'm describing the gastronomic experience of an NHS cuppa, flavour profile boiled despair, the tale of my narcoleptic driving instructor, a slapstick scuffle with a so-called easy pull tights aid, hilarious overheard conversations in hospital lift, or the time I tripped over on the Paris metro and my whole family were force-fed rescue remedy from a pipette by a random old French lady. The comedy is key to emphasising that disability is not a scary subject. It helps to subvert readers' expectations and hopefully is pivotal to my project of redefining what it means to be disabled. And those stories you talk of there really did make me chuckle throughout it. And I just wanted to turn each page. I think your sister, especially with the Paris metro situation, must still be recovering from that but there's so much

in this book that I wanted to talk about but I particularly want to focus on the chapter about fashion because I know fashion is so important to you it's called fashion able fashionable which which I love um can you tell me why it's so important to you but also the fashion industry is not necessarily known historically for being very inclusive. So I think it's safe to say that it's perhaps not the most inclusive environment. So how did you find that? And do you think it's getting better or more needs to be done? I've always loved fashion as a creative outlet and a form of personal expression. I suppose I have always used my clothes as something of a protective shield that allows me to shape how I am perceived by society and, in turn, prohibit people from making false assumptions about my body.

For example, while I may use a mobility scooter to help me travel around outdoors, it should never be seen as a sign of embarrassment or shame. But the reality is there remains huge stigma attached to any form of mobility aid. Personal style, however, is one of the most powerful tools we have to express ourselves in a world that catastrophizes any sign of physical imperfection. It's a deflection strategy, essentially. And yet the fashion industry has, historically, remained unaware of its potential to redefine how we see the disabled body. For too long, disability has remained a blind spot in the fashion industry's diversity agenda, with able-bodiedness presented as a prerequisite for what's fashionable and desirable. In the past, for example, a study showed that only 0.06% of adverts included models with disabilities, whereas I believe the fashion industry is in a prime position to eliminate the deep-rooted

stigmas surrounding disability because it is such a visual medium. It possesses the global reach and commercial responsibility to redefine how we see disability. It can start by refusing to hide disability away, but too often it has done the opposite, by reproducing rather than remedying these historic stigmas. What really struck me about this book is that it's not just for disabled activists, it is for everybody. I mean, you talk about all of our struggle with perfectionism and our obsession with outward appearances,

which I think is so true of the western world um but how do we stop that and and isn't the fashion world partly to blame for that and also I want to bring you to an instance that sort of reflects that from your own story because when you first get your first job as an intern in the fashion world I'm thinking here here we go. This is great. You're going to put them right. And then yet you apologise for the inconvenience. And I just thought, where's your power woman gone? You know, is it even hard for everybody to break that glass ceiling, as you call it? So firstly, in terms of the relatability of my book, I think that is so central to what I was trying to achieve with it.

I wanted to show that disability is not a fringe subject. In fact, it touches on so many universal human emotions and experiences. For example, as you said, this really emerges in the Fashion Able chapter where I look at the stigma surrounding disabled bodies. I argue that disability is on a slider scale of body oppressions we all face in a world where our value is judged on our exterior. Everybody faces endless diktats on how they must look. These are simply tenfold when you have a visible disability or any form of visual difference. But it is possible to change this status quo. The moment we validate and celebrate the beauty of all bodies, I believe it will be beneficial to everyone, whether you have a disability or not.

Then the second part of your question. In terms of my own experiences entering the fashion industry, I think the moment you are referring to was when I was first making arrangements to prepare for my internship. I was initially apprehensive about whether a role in the fashion industry would be accessible to me. For instance, I wasn't even sure if I would be able to access the offices by mobility scooter, for example. I'm sure four wheels and a chassis were not what they were expecting. I had visions of being thrown into some kind of toxic Devil We wears Prada scenario, fielding requests for oat milk lattes. That of course

was a complete myth. But from the outside, such opportunities can feel quite exclusionary to someone with a disability. It just took me a moment to realise that I could do it and trust in my own abilities, creativity and the unique outlook that I could personally bring to the fashion industry. There are of course exciting exceptions. For example, it was such an honour to have a small part in bringing to life the May issue of British Vogue celebrating disabled talent. This included an interview with Ellie Goldstein, the first model with Down syndrome to star on the cover of Vogue. She's a superstar in the making.

In my view, the whole issue set the benchmark for inclusion in the media with disability representation in front of and behind the camera. The whole issue was also available in Braille and audio format, which was incredible. That's all thanks to people like Edward Enninful, Sinead Burke and Giles Hattisley. I especially loved Edward Enninful's editor's letter in which he wrote, disability should feel personal to us all. Time has come to get real about who we are as a society. It was a great rousing call to action. It was an amazing project to be a small part of and a personal career highlight. Thank you, Lottie. That was Lottie Jackson there speaking to me about her new book,

See Me Rolling. And you heard her there at the end mention the model Ellie Goldstein. Well, we of course spoke to Ellie herself about appearing on the cover of Vogue. You can hear that interview by heading to BBC Sounds. It's the Woman's Hour episode from the 4th of May. And from two very inspirational women. I'm getting lots of inspirational stories coming in from those of you who have had your lap year, as I'm now trademarking it. Rosemary has messaged to say, I'm single and child free. I left work when I was 58 and 18 months later was offered an opportunity to work with refugees

in Northern Thailand. I was there for two and a half years and just had the most amazing experience. I wanted to put myself outside my comfort zone and to live in another culture. My only regret is that I hadn't done it earlier in my life. And she says, just do it, everybody. Just do it. And another one in here from Robert, he says, we missed out on a gap year. So we took three years out at 35 with two under three year olds to Kenya. It was a wonderful time and a great way to start a new career in teaching. Well, just amazing stories. They make me petrified, but I'm loving the fact that everyone out there is being so exciting and adventurous. And it brings me to

my next topic of conversation because there is a cultural boom resonating across the continent of Africa. The journalist and author Afua Hirsch has visited three different countries, Morocco, Nigeria and South Africa, to interview some of the very many young creatives who are expressing new ideas and gathering new momentum. She's put it together as part of a current series of Africa Rising for BBC Two. It's also available on the iPlayer. And she joins me now to tell me more.

Welcome, Afua. Thank you. I absolutely love the documentary series. it's also available on the iPlayer and she joins me now to tell me more welcome Afua thank you I absolutely love the documentary series the vibrancy of it the colour the culture I learned so much and it looked like you had an amazing time I did but what was your aim in making these programs apart from just having a blast there's a really simple answer and a more complicated answer the simple answer is I love art I love meetingives. I love getting under their skin and understanding what makes them tick. And I really wanted to tell a very contemporary story about art on the African continent, because everywhere you look, whether it's fine art,

sculpture, Afrobeat, piano, African art forms are really taking the world by storm, selling at ridiculous prices at auctions, topping the charts. It's really becoming omnipresent. And I was just really curious to understand what's driving that, where it's coming from. The deeper story is that I think the African continent has been so misrepresented in the Western media for so long that we've never really had the opportunity to see the incredible energy, diversity, innovation of so many African cultures. And that affected me personally growing up as someone of African heritage. My mother comes from Ghana. I grew up in Britain in the 1980s and 90s, receiving the same information as everyone else, that basically the African continent was the source of despair, hopelessness, war, famine.

And, you know, it made me feel ashamed of my African roots as a child. And I had to work to really get to know the continent myself as growing up, as a professional working, travelling, and really to see how huge the gap between what we think of the African continent from outside and what the African continent is. And obviously, it's such a huge and diverse continent. I've never claimed to know it all much as I've travelled in dozens of countries and worked with so many people across the continent. So I really also wanted to tell a more truthful story about the incredible creativity that's happening. And the reason I think that's also important is that so many of all our ideas come from Africa, so much of our fashion, style, food, the African continent has been contributing disproportionately to human ingenuity since the beginning of time,

since the beginning of our species, really. And I think there's just such an injustice that we have such a skewed idea of African countries when the truth is actually the other extreme that it is an incredible hub of innovation and always has been. You're so right and what I only realised from watching your documentary is how much of that culture and that art and crafts is actually present nowadays. I think I went you went to Morocco and did some rug making and I thought I recognise that from some high streets shops and you know that they're sold in Ikea and the like and you kind of realize that there are these traditional hundreds of year old techniques but it does infiltrate our society we just don't realize it and we're losing

out on so much by not understanding what it is those Amazigh rugs when Amazigh is the indigenous community of Morocco and other North African countries. They've been making those rugs for thousands of years and the symbols on them have meaning. So if you buy a rug that's a kind of copy of an amazigh from Ikea, not only is it not enriching the people who made it and created it, but it's also stripped away from its cultural context and meaning. And I think that's a shame for everyone. And you know, there's so many debates about cultural appropriation at the moment. Every single creative I met wanted everyone to enjoy their work. They want people of all races and cultures to wear their fashion, to buy their rugs, to listen to their music. They're not trying to police who gets to enjoy the culture. They just want credit and recognition for

the fact they created it. And it belongs in a context that the person enjoying it would benefit from understanding. That's a very good point. You also met some extraordinary women and had some extraordinary experiences when you met Queen Amal Armoury. This involved you riding a horse and holding a sword, I think, which is obviously a century-old tradition.

But what's that about? And why is Amal particularly an important figurehead for women? She's incredible. She is really proud of her Moroccan heritage and culture. And it's a very Moroccan tradition to do this horse riding. It's a ritual really, it's called Tabourida. And it harks back to actual Moroccan history. It's like many nations got a history of militarism, invasion, defending itself against outside invaders, conquests. And so there are lots of famed battles in Moroccan tradition. And actually, one of the legends is of a female military leader who led Morocco to some incredible victory hundreds of years ago. But over time, these rituals that come from that

era have become very patriarchal and masculine. And it's something that many Moroccans like to do, to go and watch Tabarida. And it is an incredible spectacle. It's these usually men on horseback galloping at full speed with an ancient rifle. And they fire in synchronisation while also approaching this hard border at the end of the track where they have to break suddenly. It's really incredible to watch, quite scary. They know what they're doing. But what Amal decided to do was reinsert women in the tradition, which was quite radical and still is quite radical. And she has an all-female troupe. And they're just incredible

young women who do this kind of like death defying spectacle on horseback. And it's beautiful to watch. But it's also for her about reclaiming her place in Moroccan history and culture. And it was she used to be she used to train police officers on horse riding. So she's already a kind of glass ceiling smasher. But I think that stereotype, as you said, which a lot of the people you met do. I know when you went to Nigeria, you meet a fantastic chef

who's cooking giant snails, I think. But what is so unique about Obahe's dishes and the success that she's had? Yes, Chef Obahe, she is really championing local ingredients. And across the African continent, one of the consequences of colonisation was that there's this mindset that anything that comes from Europe or America is

better than local products. You know, that things that come from the West are superior, that they're sophisticated, they're more expensive, they're the reserve of people who are better educated and have access to travel. And it's created this kind of ideology that has really degradated the local products. And that's bad for the culture, because these are the things that your ancestors would have eaten or worn if you're in an African country. But it's also bad for the environment. Everything's imported. Imported products are often less good in quality, they're more expensive. And what Chef Abehi was doing was creating a really high end luxury restaurant and dining experience, but using local ingredients, the kind of thing that you buy in the market that have really been frowned upon in modern times. So

she's trying to recenter those as actually luxury and gastronomic ingredients. And they really are, they're all the things that now we have a language for, you know, locally grown, seasonal. Nigeria is one of the most agriculturally productive countries in the world. It's so fertile. It's so many ingredients. And so it's actually quite a revolutionary thing to center those as aspirational. And I really loved that she was doing that and that she was this young woman

running her own restaurant, everything in the restaurant, which was stunning and could have been in Mayfair. Everything was made from local ingredients, the wood, the Tupperware, the ceramics, all of the food comes from local ingredients. She was employing and training local people to become really high-end chefs and mixologists.

She was even brewing her own spirits from local ingredients and turning them into kind of, you know, the new tequilas and rums, but from hibiscus and other local flowers. It was really, it was one of the more fun things to shoot. Yeah, you got to taste all this. This is what I'm jealous of. But you met such amazing, incredible young women. What did you get out of meeting? I know there's so many of them from artists to chefs to craftspeople. But what did you get from meeting them as a whole?

I found it really humbling, actually, because I think to be an artist anywhere requires a lot of courage. You're often going against cultural expectations, especially as a woman. And, you know, in more traditional societies, you've got the added layers that women are expected to marry at a certain age and perform certain domestic and childbearing roles. But also, I think if you're from a certain class background in an African country, there's an expectation that you should use your education to become a professional, to become a lawyer or a doctor. And so pursuing a creative path really requires shaking off a lot of societal pressure. And it's risky. You don't know you're going to be able to make a living.

And I think all of those pressures that I think artists anywhere listening to this will relate to are compounded in African countries where, you know, economic security is still very uncertain for a lot of people. So there's all of the courage it takes to pursue your mission as an artist. And all of the artists I met really did have a sense of purpose that they were put on this earth to make this art. So just being in the presence of people who have that kind of clarity of purpose is really humbling. And then on top of that, I think what I really noticed about the artists that I met was that much as some of them are achieving incredible success and selling at auction globally and attracting buyers around the world, they often had a very communal instinct

that part of their sense of purpose was wanting to give back to their country, to their people, to their family, to their community, wanting to tell the story of their culture in a way that hasn't been told internationally before. But also not just for an international gaze for themselves, just wanting to celebrate and find the joy and also the pain and the struggle in their own experience and be very truthful about it. And I think that's also a change. I think in the past, there was maybe more emphasis on needing to reach a global audience.

And I found that, especially a younger generation of artists that I was meeting, were more unapologetic about not centering an outside gaze, making art for themselves, for their own society. And ironically, I think that authenticity

is actually traveling even better and reaching a big audience globally but the point is that's not necessarily what's driving them to make it well thank you there is so much we could talk about still there's so much in those documentaries if you do want to see them they're on BBC2 Africa Rising also available on iPlayer but thank you thank you so much for coming in and explaining it all um now so many of you have been in contact this morning about your lap years and I just want to read a few more out because they really are inspiring and this one from Catherine says in my mid-30s I quit my job to spend three months wild camping across outback Australia with my dad in his ancient Land Rover

Defender it was great to spend so much time with him there was laughter tears and many memories made I'm so glad I took the plunge to leave work because dad is too old now to do such a trip again It was great to spend so much time with him. There was laughter, tears and many memories made. I'm so glad I took the plunge to leave work because dad is too old now to do such a trip again and I'm so grateful of the time we had together. Also, a few of you are responding to my conversation with Lottie Jackson and this message says here from Ruth, it's brilliant to hear about the long-term effects of disability on shaping someone having such a positive outcome. Having spent between a wheelchair crutches and walking stick and i fully

understand everything that's being said by lottie you simply have to embrace the insanity of the way people treat you and find the humor otherwise um you will you will you will you will worry and you will struggle well thank you for joining me this morning of Of course, Weekend's Woman's Hour is back tomorrow and we're back on Monday at 10. Well, thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. Jason Manford here. And I'm Steve Edge.

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