Woman's Hour - Oloni, Women in Politics, Forever Friends?

Episode Date: September 29, 2022

'Ladies shall we have some fun?' Some of you may recognise this catchphrase and be thinking of the sex and relationship expert Oloni, who built an online community by speaking openly about sex and relationships. Her new book – The Big O – is out and goes into detail about how we can close what she calls ‘the orgasm gap’. Oloni joins Emma.The Bank of England’s intervention yesterday to calm financial markets after the government’s mini-budget came hot on the heels of the International Monetary Fund warning that the measures are likely to fuel the cost of living crisis. One woman who’s been advising the IMF over the past 20 years is Ngaire Woods, now Professor of Global Economic Governance at the University of Oxford, she joins Emma.Giorgia Meloni’s election as the Prime Minister of Italy is just the latest victory for a woman on the right of the political spectrum. The vast majority of European women who have who had true executive power - party or government leaders – come from the right, starting with Margaret Thatcher. The academic Costanza Hermanin from the European University Institute in Florence joins Emma Barnett to discuss why the Left have had fewer female leaders, alongside Professor Matthew Goodwin from the University of Kent, who has written a number of books including National Populism: The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy.We've been talking about female friendship in the last couple of weeks and focussing on what happens when friendship goes wrong. Can you fix a friendship that has broken and should you try? Daniella and Nataliya - Dan and Nat - are both 33 and they live in London. Jo Morris talked to them, separately, about their long friendship and what it means to them. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to a programme with pleasure and pain running through it. To the pain first, well, I want to give you something to look forward to. The woman who's been advising the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, over the last 20 years. We'll share her take on the pain of economic instability at the moment for many. Later in the programme, to the pleasure, I'll be joined by Ohlone. Some of you will know her well. Some of you will just be encountering her for the first time. She's described as a sex guru Gen Z cannot get enough of. And that's anyone born between 97 and 2012.

But I'm sure even if you're not, there'll be something to be gleaned from our conversation. But I wanted to ask you first about a question, about a question, if I can, what your question would be. This morning, my colleagues on local BBC radio networks have had five minutes with the Prime Minister, Liz Truss. This is ahead of the Conservative Party conference next week. She's been criticised by some for going missing,

as they would put it, for the last four days as the markets, the Bank of England and the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, have all strongly reacted to Friday's mini-budget announced by the new Chancellor, Kwasi Kwarteng. If you had five minutes with the new Prime Minister, with Liz Truss, the top woman right now, the woman in the hot seat.

What would you ask her? I was looking through some of what my colleagues had gone with this morning. Where have you been, was one. Did you sleep well, Prime Minister? Are you still confident? Is fracking the right approach? Another area, I should say, when you send in your questions, if you're so kind, and some of you already have, they don't just have to be about the economy, but a lot of them seem to be. Are you ashamed of what you have done was a listener question fed through to one of the presenters this morning on BBC local radio and how can we trust the Conservatives with the economy again was another. Five minutes the clock starts with Liz Truss. What's your first question? 84844 that's the number you need to text me here. You can send me a WhatsApp message or a voice note on 03700 100 444.

Watch those data charges. You might wish to use Wi-Fi at BBC Women's Hour, which is where we are on social media, or email me through the Women's Hour website. Messages here coming in. What is in our control economically? And what is impacted by global economic turbulence? And what are you going to do to make sure that people up and down the UK have confidence that they will not be financially ruined? That is from Abigail's listening. And Abigail, who's listening this morning, who's come in on Twitter. Another one here.

The trouble is I'm so angry it's hard to form a coherent question. If Liz Truss has the audacity to defend the economic and therefore social devastation she's caused in her first moments of active office, there is really little point in debating with her. Well, of course, all of this is just beginning. These are the initial statements. There has been a huge response, of course, from the markets. And we're talking about that instability.

We'll have more detail on that in just a moment from a woman in the know. Someone, as I say, has been advising the IMF for 20 years. Janet says, should I advise my daughter not to buy a house or not to have a family because she won't be able to have both? That's one question that you would start with. That would be a very interesting one to start with. Greg says, how do you sleep at night? Building on the sleep theme. Total waste of time. Those interviews. This is Jenny's view. She just reeled out the same prepared statements over and over again.

Well, we listened across those interviews for you this morning. You may not have been able to. You may have missed them. You may be catching back up. The Prime Minister has defended last week's mini-budget in these interviews across BBC Local Radio. Here's what she had to say to give you a flavour while speaking to BBC Radio Tees. We are facing a global economic crisis following Putin's appalling war in Ukraine

and what I am about is about making sure that British people are protected from that. First of all by supporting with their energy bills and the biggest part of our package on Friday was the energy price guarantee. As Prime Minister, I have to be prepared to take tough decisions. And that's what I'm prepared to do. These decisions will make sure that we see lower inflation than we would have done and also make sure that we are seeing the economic growth that we need to sustain our country in the future. Let's talk now to Vicky Young, the BBC's Deputy Political Editor. Did you learn anything? Did we learn anything we didn't know?

Well, I think we all know that Liz Truss is a politician who is quite capable of digging her heels in. And I think you could probably hear that happening throughout all of those interviews today. But it struck me that it went even further than that, didn't it? Not only is it there's going to be no U-turn, we're not going to apologise for anything we've done. It's this explanation, she says, that the reaction we've had is nothing to do with that mini budget on a Friday. Absolutely nothing to do with it. It's to do with global trends. And I had one Tory MP text me to say she sounds deluded. And I think that's a big problem in terms of those interview rounds this morning, that she was giving no ground. Now you can see why there might be an argument of why she would

do that. She wants to stand firm. She wants to show she's strong. But actually, in against what's been happening, it just sounds like she's not in touch with reality. And on that, there seems to be and having interviewed a minister earlier in the week who was defending the strategy as well, there seems to be the defence that we have to remain independent from the markets. We have to remain independent from the Bank of England so that there's no way of connecting with that reality that you talk about. Well, yeah, but the problem is, isn't it,

that as one ex-Cabinet Minister put it to me, you can have your ideology and your plans. But at some point, they have to collide with reality. And there's a political reality. And then there's a market reality. And the truth is investors have a choice about where they put their money. They don't have to invest it in the UK, they can go elsewhere. And that is the problem she's got. And it does all of course, go back to Friday in the sense that look, the energy package is actually not that controversial in terms of politically. You know, every party felt something had to be done. They've done it. That is the biggest part of that announcement on Friday. National Insurance bringing that down. Actually, Labour agree with that. But it was the other things. And it's the surprise, you know, Liz Truss has spent all

summer talking to rooms full of conservatives, there was no mention of the 45p rate going. And it's that I think, which has, you know, triggered all of that, plus the fact that Kwasi Kwarteng deliberately didn't make it a budget. It was it wasn't even half a budget, it was a quarter of a budget, because he didn't do the bits that markets require, and other people want, which is explain how you're going to pay for it. That's a bit that wasn't there. All these other reforms that they say are now coming. They didn't explain those either. They're coming in the next few weeks. So they did one bit without the other bit, which could have stabilised things. And I think that is a big part of why

Tory MPs are so concerned, is that, you know, growth, great. That's a great idea. It's going to take a while, but you need to explain the bigger picture. Some Tory MPs. I mean, how's the picture across the party as we go towards the Conservative conference next week? Well, as you say, of course, there are some who think this is the right thing to do. And of course, that the government must hold its nerve. But there's a huge swathe who are extremely worried. Now, actually, I spoke to loads of them yesterday. Now, they're not hysterical. There's all talk of letters going in and getting rid of the prime minister, all the rest of it. I would say that was described as idiotic by quite a few of them. I don't feel that that is what is happening. But there is huge concern about the way that it's gone

and actually this reaction now where there's no acceptance that they take any responsibility for it. That is alarming people. And they've now got to wait to the 23rd of November, which is the date when Kwasi Kwarteng is going to explain all the missing bits, the void, if you like. But of course, he's got to get through the conference next week. He's got a big speech on Monday. What's he going to do? Well, I'm told that he's just going to keep talking about the energy package because they think that that is a popular thing and something that is, of course, helping lots of people. They will be focusing on those things, not the getting rid of the cap on bankers bonuses and all the rest of it. But it's going to be incredibly difficult. And the problem is that, you know,

coming out and saying things as Kwasi Kwarteng did on Sunday actually made things a bit worse when he suggested there was more tax cuts to come. And the other thing that's happened overnight is this suggestion of spending efficiencies, spending cuts, we might call them. Where are they going to fall? That's another surprise for MPs. Where are they going to fall? Which departments are you looking at with all of this? And certainly a suggestion that things like benefits, that uprating of benefits in line with inflation, which Rishi Sunak, when he was Chancellor, said was going to happen. The real suggestion that they are not committed to doing that next April. Vicky Young, thank you very much. The BBC's deputy political editor.

To your questions, five minutes in the room with Liz Truss. What you would ask? A message I would ask her if she thinks people have severely overreacted to her government's plans. All of a sudden, everyone seems to be economically aware. I think generally the public are sheep led by the media. Another one. How are you going to support people whose mortgage payments are going to cost them up to twice the amount since your mini-budget? What's the biggest gap in your skill sets,

just to share with you as Prime Minister, and what steps will you take to remedy it? Another one, why do you never think you are wrong? These are your questions if you had five minutes with Liz Truss, as my colleagues did, some of them across local radio this morning, across the BBC networks. And Deborah says, how can you justify all the changes you propose when you do not have a democratic mandate to be our leader most british voters didn't vote for you and do not want your

administration or the conservatives in power that seems to be i mean we can talk about why that's that's not quite accurate in terms of how the conservative and how our governments work but i get the bigger point that you're making here, that she was put there by Conservative members and we didn't have a general election. And quite a few of you would ask her, when would a general election be? Well, let's now turn to the woman who for the last two decades has been advising the International Monetary Fund, the external committees, that is. And the IMF, of course, we heard from this week in response to Liz Truss's decisions. Nairi Woods, the founding dean of the Blavatnik School of Governance at the University of Oxford and professor of global economic governance.

Just before coming on air, I asked her what she made of the prime minister standing by her plan today. Well, she's underlining the parts of the plan that are the most solid and ignoring the part of the plan which has spooked the markets. And which is that bit, would you say? And that's the tax cuts. It's the idea that this government are going to spend a whole lot more and at the same time cut taxes, which makes the market realise that the government will have to borrow a whole lot more. And given that they don't have confidence yet that the plan will deliver growth, that borrowing has become hugely more expensive.

We're just looking at the interventions this week. Writing in The Telegraph today, the columnist Alistair Heath has said this trust must hold her nerve. He says every single idea from last week's mini-budget is positive for growth and calls the IMF, the institution you know well, the IMF's intervention, e know well, the IMF's

intervention, egregious meddling and says it should be scrapped. What do you make of that? Look, I think there's two things here. One is, is the content of the plan sound? And people can debate that and they've got different views on it. There's not so much evidence that this kind of tax cut in this kind of situation will produce growth. But the second thing is the execution of it, the rushing out with this statement before they've got their ducks lined up, before they can actually give citizens and markets the actual detail. The idea that everybody should wait until the 23rd of November to see the working is very, very unusual and very likely to spook the market. So it's the execution that's been a real problem and has led people to double down on the questioning

about the content. Now, to those spokespeople of the government who want to criticise the IMF, I would say play the ball, not the player. If you can give good reasoning and good explanations for these policies, if you can respond to critics who are pointing out what's wrong with these policies with good rational arguments, terrific. But don't take the intellectually lazy position of simply saying, we don't like the IMF. I suppose there's just this, you know, for people who are not, and you know, many of our listeners are not familiar with the role that the IMF should play. There is and has been some commentary that it wasn't right for that comment to be made, that the, you know, we are one of the leading economies in the world. And that sort of commentary or intervention, again, I'm just putting

to you what's been said, is usually reserved for economies which are not as strong. What would you say to that as well? Yeah, so I'd say it's really important to understand what the IMF is. The IMF is the creation of governments. First, it's there to advise countries on their monetary policy, on what they're doing with their currency in order to protect other countries from one country crashing the train. Britain's one of the G7 countries. It's one of the seven largest economies in the world. The IMF has to pay attention to Britain, not to meddle in British politics,

but in order to do its job and protect other countries from Britain doing something which might crash the train for them. So that's why the IMF gave a pretty, gave, you know, a pretty cautious kind of warning, just saying, you know, you might want to think again. The other thing about the IMF is it's there to as a as an emergency fund when countries bold bets don't pay off. And that happened to Britain in 1976. And if the government's bold bet doesn't pay off, it's going to happen to Britain again. So it's going to need to go and ask the IMF for short term emergency assistance. How long do you think we've got until we know? I think, look, this is a volatile time.

It's a really difficult time for all governments. You know, COVID, the war in Ukraine and the effects of Brexit in Britain all produce difficult circumstances. We need the government to be completely sure footed. So it's not really the time for experimental bold measures. And I would say what the government now needs to do... Couldn't you say it's exactly the time, just as an argument, to try something different? Which is the argument coming from the Chancellor and the new Prime Minister? When things are stable, but the government is stagnating, but the economy is stagnating, you know, you can say, well, we need a big, bold dose of policy.

If that's the case now, the government needs to be sure-footed in the way that they unveil it and sure-footed in the way that they explain it. Precisely because the world is somewhat fragile and anxious at the moment, the execution of the government's policies needs to be flawless. And I think everybody, even their own advisers, accept that the execution of this has been ham-fisted at best, that they've come out of the blocks too quickly before they've finished their homework, before they've lined up all the ducks, before they've got the Bank of England and the Treasury and the government lined up, before they've consulted with partners and explained to the IMF what they're doing. They've come out of the blocks, made a big announcement, and now they're having to deal with a fairly unnecessary fallout. Even then, with the execution, the criticism of the execution, do you think it can still work? And how long do you give that? I think it's now going to be one of the most costly experiments of all time, because the whole plan relies on a lot of borrowing. And the markets are now saying, we don't totally trust you as a government to lend to, so we're going to charge you a lot of

money to borrow from us. And that makes the plan a very, very expensive bet. To get your take on a theory, the glass cliff theory, while I have you, it was developed by two academics from the University of Exeter. The idea that women are appointed to senior positions during a time of crisis politically or in business. Do you believe in that? Someone was talking about that at the time that Liz Truss was appointed. What do you make of that? I tend not to jump first to the idea that somebody's gender determines their style of leadership because we see different women leading in very different ways, just as we see different men leading in very different ways. And it's not obvious to me that Liz Truss has been made prime minister by Conservative Party members, just because she's female. And it's not clear to

me that what she's doing is any different to what a male Conservative Party member of parliament wanting to do a big bold experiment would do. So I'm not sure that that captures something meaningful in this particular instance. And the number of women involved in the economy, you know, looking around the tables that you sit around and the decisions that are made, what are your views on those levels at the moment? There are too few women around the tables. And why do I say that? Because what some of the social science literature tells us is that women tend to be more prudent in their decision-making. I don't think that's the case with this prime minister

and this particular measure. But women do tend to bring, if not a more risk-averse attitude, a different risk propensity and a different evaluation of risks. And that's why there's good evidence that gender diversity on the boards of financial institutions leads on the whole to better outcomes. And it's that performance literature that I would look at and say, look, the evidence is there. Get diversity on your board, not just gender, different diversity, because it allows you to really robustly test what you're about to do. The government would be in a much better place today if it had, instead of just talking to people that agreed with them, if they had actually

robustly tested those policies with the people that disagree with them. They, of course, may argue that they have robustly tested their policy. We don't quite know what's gone on behind the scenes, but we do know a bit about some of the personnel, don't we? Yeah, I mean, I would say that they actually prevented themselves robustly testing their policy. One of the first things they did is fire the Permanent Secretary of the Treasury, who probably has the most experience of dealing with financial crises, used to sit on the board of the IMF itself,

and knows all the other G7 counterparties. So he's somebody that represented continuity and challenge. Now, he clearly disagreed with them. That's important for them to listen to and respond to, because if they can persuade him, they can persuade other countries and they can persuade the markets. By firing him, they not only silenced him and deprived themselves of his challenge, but they basically said to other civil servants and economists, you either agree with us and we'll listen to you or you disagree with us and we'll fire you. That's a very bad message if you want to build strong support and stronger policies by letting them

get challenged. The individual you're talking about is Tom Scholar, being removed from that position. Just finally, anything else in your life that you're going to be doing differently, do you think, over the next few weeks and months? Someone at your level, knowing what you know, is always interesting to ask. In my personal life, I think like everybody,

I'll be making sure that I can afford the lifestyle that I've got with interest rates going up. That those I know taking out mortgages know what the risks are going to be if they take out, you know, what are increasingly only variable rate mortgages. It's going to be a tough winter. There's just no question about that. Nairi Woods there, an advisor on the International Monetary Fund external committees over the last two decades and professor of global economic governance at the University of Oxford. You're still coming in with, if you had five minutes in the room with Liz Truss, what your top question would be. How soon can we have the next general election? Reads one message here. And what on earth was the point of a tax cut for top earners? And so they continue. Keep them coming in, please.

As someone who writes questions for a living, I'm always intrigued by what you want asked first and to those who are in charge at the moment with Liz Truss continuing to stand by those decisions from Friday. Now, keeping with the theme of women in power, you'll recall early in the week, we reported on Giorgia Maloney's victory in the Italian general election. She's Italy's first female prime minister leading the Populist Party, the Brothers of Italy party, which

she was part of founding a decade ago. But it's worth noting that the vast majority of European women who have held executive power, meaning they've been elected party or government leaders, come from the right, many believing it began with Margaret Thatcher. Let's talk now to the academic Constanza Hermanen from the European University Institute in Florence. Her research has looked at why the left has been less successful in getting women into these positions of power, and also to Professor Matthew Goodwin from the University of Kent, who's written a number of books, including National Populism,

The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy. Matthew, if I may start with you. Good morning. Good morning. Just about a definition here. Maloney publicly defines herself as centre-right. On Sunday, she said Italians

have clearly indicated they want a centre-right government. She's also said she admires Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher and their style of politics. Is that language accurate around the power change in Italy? The term far-right and fascism are also being used interchangeably by a lot of people. Well, I think the term far-right is quite unhelpful, actually, because it tends to capture everything from fascist parties all the way through to ultra conservative parties. Among academics like myself, there is a consensus

that we need to really distinguish between parties that oppose democracy, that oppose liberalism, and parties that want to work within democracy that accept many of the principles of a liberal society. And Georgia Maloney, I think it's fair to call her a national populist. She wants to prioritise the culture, the nation of the Italian people against what she argues are distant, corrupt, self-serving elites. But she's not calling for the overthrow of democracy. She's not calling for the overthrow of democratic norms. So, you know, that debate will be ongoing. Yes, and I think it's useful to highlight it because of how things are being described at the moment.

And we're talking about women on the right. Constanze, good morning. Your research looking at why women on the left don't seem to be able to quite get ahead. Of course, there have been women leaders on the left, but not in quite the same way as women on the right. What have you found? Well, hello, good morning. What I've found is that, you know, there are more women on the centre-right conservative, traditional conservative spectrum of politics, but also on the

national populist right or extreme right wing. And that's a matter of fact. If you think at Meloni, but also Alice Weidel for Germany and Le Pen, these are different sorts of women, obviously, if we think about Margaret Thatcher or Angela Merkel, Theresa May and the traditional conservatives. But there are common characteristics. And what I find is that they conform.

They conform to models. And therefore, I think their road to politics and leadership is easier. When we talk about moderate conservatives, we very frequently have very feminine figures who normally enter politics with the family name of their husbands or mothers and who dress very much like women, have a tone of voice that is very, let's say, friendly and not aggressive. And they frequently have conform also to the double bind, meaning that they are really, really experts.

They have degrees or have been working in domains that are scientific and not so usual for women. Whereas if you look at the far right or at the national populist, you have women who tend to conform to male leadership models. So they dress like men. They are very aggressive in their tone of voice. They have personal histories that they tend not to put forward in their, let's say, political propaganda. And therefore, both these groups of women are not perceived as threatening the social order we know.

Whereas women on the left bring with them usually a reform agenda on gender balance, which I think make them be feared by their party colleagues and therefore be fought more actively than women on the right. What do you make of that, Matthew? Yeah, I mean, I think that's certainly an interesting observation. I think as well, you know, when you look at figures like Marine Le Pen, when you look at Georgia Maloney, when you look at these very prominent, powerful women in populist politics, the other thing they remind us is actually these movements are changing. In the 1990s and the 2000s, we used to talk a lot in the social

sciences about the gender gap. Why are men disproportionately drawn to populist movements? Now, fast forward to today. Look at Marine Le Pen's electorate in France. She's actually now quite successful among young French women, typically between the age of 18 and 35, often work in the hospitality sector, hotels, restaurants, usually haven't gone to university. And what we're seeing, I think, is an evolution of populist electorates, a change in who's voting for them. And this is going to raise some really interesting questions going forward, Emma. I mean, if you listen to Georgia Maloney, what's she talking about? She's talking about family. She's opposed to what she calls gender identity theory. She's

saying that we're all being turned into consumers by big corporations. We're no longer citizens. We're no longer mothers. We're no longer wives, et cetera, et cetera. This is a different language compared to populism of the 90s and the 2000s. And it may be that actually we're seeing this movement enter a new phase in its evolution. Yeah. And the way that women connect with it as voters is changing. But also, Constanza, the trend has been, we've also seen other reports talk about women going more towards the left, just overall. So, yes, populism and who it appeals to may be changing. But if we're told the female supporters,

we were looking at this only yesterday with the polls about Labour here in this country, and women are looking at the moment like they will be more likely to vote for Labour. So something doesn't quite add up. You've got women going towards the left overall, but they're not having the female leaders in that space necessarily.

Yes, well, that's true and untrue because women in Italy voted mainly for Meloni. The highest percentage of women voted for Meloni than for other parties. Now, as a matter of fact, when women started voting, they tended to vote for conservative parties, promoting a traditional model of family. It's at the end of the 70s, the 80s, that this changed and women started voting for a more progressive agenda. And this may well be changing again. For sure, they cannot find role models.

And the fact that Meloni is a woman may have worked for her to attract the women's electorate. Let me say a couple of things. She ensured that she wouldn't scare these electorates, stating clearly that she didn't want to abolish abortion law. And she made this, she said that a couple of weeks before the election. And it was definitely an important statement. And also she, in a sense, de-radicalized her appearance, tone of voice, and also her political proposals in the months preceding the election. So she seemed less threatening, in a sense, to the, let's say, normal socioeconomic order. She reassured the markets, she reassured the foreign policy observers, and thus it was easier, I think,

for women to vote for her too. To come to that conclusion. Constanze Hermann, thank you very much to you. Just finally to you, Professor Matthew Goodwin, I was looking at your writing this morning and you've written on your sub-st stack on your blog about trustonomics and some of the response that you've you've seen to that so far. What can we learn? Because it's quite unusual to have a new prime minister without that initial bounce of popularity. Yeah, that is striking. We've seen no bounce in the polls yet for our new prime minister. That's unusual.

Most prime ministers enjoy a honeymoon period, but the ratings for this trust are as flat as a pancake. If anything, since the mini-budget last Friday, and we've only had a handful of polls, to take them with a pinch of salt, but actually the Conservative vote share has fallen and the Labour Party lead has now increased to 14 points, which means if that were to hold a general election, we would

almost certainly be looking at a Labour majority. But the key point here to leave your listeners perhaps pondering is the massive disconnection between what Conservative voters in 2019 want from the economy and what they're being offered by this new government. Many of those voters do not want a low-tax, small-state, London-centric economy that is helping financial services. Many of them voted for Brexit because they want the very opposite. They want the rebalancing of the economy. They want more done for Northern England. They want more done for people who are not high earners.

And they're happy to pay a little bit of tax if it means they get a better national healthcare service and better public services. That disconnect will, I'm sure, come into greater focus over the coming days, especially as we hear from Liz Truss and her new set of ministers at the Conservative Party Conference.

Professor Matthew Goodwin, thank you to you as well. Let me tell you about who's just walked into the studio, from the concerns of economic pain or the threats of to some pleasure. The sex expert, Ohlone, has just walked in. Good morning. Good morning.

And let me just tell you, she's built a huge online community by speaking openly about sex and relationships. An Evening Standard headline asked, why Ohlone is a sex guru Gen Z cannot get enough of. And her new book,

The Big O, is out today and goes into detail of what she says we need to close the orgasm gap congratulations first of all thank you so much thank you i appreciate it going from some economics and why women are doing so well in politics to orgasms and i never say there's nothing but variety on this program but your background if i could come to that first because you grew up in a pretty religious household absolutely yes um my mum and dad are Christian so I was always in church every Sunday and um you know I loved it I think I was able to meet other people it was a community it was great to meet other kids and stuff and you know learn about your faith but

there were obviously aspects which I kind of, you know, raised my eyebrow to. And raising the eyebrow, though, has become your job. Yeah. And into that. Tell me how you went from that sort of background in that community to being a sex expert. Absolutely. So I've always enjoyed talking about relationships and dating. I think even being a Nigerian woman, my culture

loves, you know, relationships. I mean, what culture doesn't love love and relationships, but we also, we're very known for marriages, extravagant weddings and such. So I think naturally I always enjoy talking about relationships and dating, but of course with relationships and dating comes sex. And I always had my great community of friends who I loved to talk about all my dating conundrums with. But I noticed that they always wanted me to, you know, shy away from talking about sex. I was the potty mouth one. And I wanted to, you know, have that conversation. But they kind of, they were shy and they thought it just wasn't really ladylike but I think it is ladylike to talk about sex I think we should all be able to have a conversation about sex and how to have great sex a big part of it is that you you put things out on social media yes people come to you with what they think and you you're trying to change what we even think sex means absolutely I think we need to change what sex means to us because for so long it has been from the story and viewpoint from cis hetero men. I mean, if you,

if we think about erotica, who are the ones who are telling the stories? It's usually men. If you think about what people search online, where are these stories and dialogues coming from? It is men. Women are never really in these stories or getting to paint the narrative or, you know, write the narrative. So I think it's really important that we understand that women are sexual beings and women have a right to share their story however they see fit,

whether that's in a casual relationship or within a relationship itself. But you also think the idea of penis in vagina, I'll put it like that, just being thought of as sex needs to change and of course you'd think like that if you were in uh you know in a same sex relationship you would think differently but you're trying to say that more broadly absolutely and that's what I talk about in the big oh I think that yes penetrative sex is you know great to talk about but I feel like

sex in this day and age is too penis focused. There's so many ways we can enjoy sex. And I feel like when we just talk about penis and vagina, we're leaving out so many stories. We're leaving out, you know, women who identify as LGBTQ. We're leaving out stories that aren't just around penetrative sex. We're leaving out foreplay. We're leaving out, you know, just the different ways in which sex can take place and again i delve

into this in the big oh and i think it's really important that women pick it up and read it so they too can have better sex but some of what you're saying and i say this with the greatest respect you will know it's been said for quite a long time by a lot of agony aunts before you about feminists who've been doing this for years and years and years and yet you're saying when you started this sort of conversation with friends your age, your teens and your twenties, there was still a block, there was still a problem. There definitely was.

And I think it was because, again, for so long, society has told us that sex is not for us. Sex is just supposed to be something that, you know, we do within marriage or for procreationation it's not something that we're supposed to enjoy so I think when girls are growing up even in the love island era even with social media even with some of the programs that we've seen you you don't think that message is I think it's changing bit by bit but it's not we still have so far to go we've got a very long way to go I mean we're getting there little by little I think even when I see certain conversations growing up for me was very different to how it is today which is

what I love about Gen Z I'm a millennial so I think growing up as a millennial again I talk about it in the big which is older than Gen Z yeah I'm also a millennial yeah I think yes I think that when I was growing up as a millennial a lot of of women were still shy or were fearful to express their sexuality because they didn't want to be called certain names and they didn't want to be degraded. But today that is slowly changing. I think it's, you know, women are celebrating their sexuality more. But again, we have a very long way to go. Do your parents read your social media feed? Sometimes, not all the time. What's the chat like around the table when you've been to church i you know do you know what when i ask my mom about it she just giggles sometimes she won't

give me like she won't want to delve like don't get it twisted i will not sit down and talk about the orgasm gap with my mom i'm not going to do that but we will have passing conversations here and there so if i need to break down to her why you know one of the most famous women in the world is like famous she will she'll be like oh really you know so I can have conversations with her here and there but again am I going to sit down and explain you know um different forms of stimulation when it comes to pleasure absolutely not and not with the male members of the family absolutely not even more no that might be where the progress also needs to go perhaps yeah definitely you have also asked and you you

kind of try and make fun of it, and so people come out themselves and talk to you on social media about women faking orgasms, which is still a major issue, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I mean, I did a live show just the other day, and I asked a bunch of women, you know, have you faked an orgasm? And a lot of women raised their hands. A lot of women have.

And again, this is something I talk about in the big O. And I think it's something that we need to cut out because by faking your orgasm, you're adding towards the orgasm gap and the disparity between men and women. And, you know, just not being able to communicate properly is just not the greatest form of sexual intimacy. We need to communicate in every way possible. But a lot of women are faking it for different

reasons. They're either just fed up and tired. They don't want to bruise his ego. And to that, I usually say, listen, your pleasure is more important than his egosis. So you need to speak up. If something isn't being done correctly, you need to inform him and you need to communicate and maybe you need to do some you know have some solo sex as well maybe you it is that you don't know what it is you might enjoy and that when you do find out you can then teach your partner as well but again i break this down in the big oh in so many ways and when people are telling you that they're still doing it you say there's a number of reasons so they're tired yeah might not know what they want and any other reasons that have struck you yeah I think it's usually because they think that there's something wrong with them they feel like they're unable to orgasm and sometimes that makes me sad if I'm being completely honest because I know that a lot of

women have not experienced an orgasm by themselves or during partnered sex and that's because they might not even understand what pleasure looks like or the end point of pleasure which is to orgasm and that's because again a lot of people do not understand that when it comes to women and stimulation a lot of women um actually orgasm through clitoral stimulation 75 of us um you know reach orgasm through clitoral stimulation and when it comes to know reach orgasm through clitoral stimulation and when it comes to penetration it's only 25 of us and for a lot of cis heterosexual um couples who are having sex um the bread and butter of intimacy for them is penetrative sex so that kind of just shows you where things are going wrong right in the cold light of day when you still talk about

the fact that that's going on that women fake, it's just odd, isn't it? Yeah. That's what it sounds, you know, when you actually think about it, even though there are very good reasons for people to justify it to themselves. A lot of the time, a lack of confidence, as you say. It is a very odd thing. A very terrible part of my brain has just put the first part of the programme together with having you in the studio. And there's part of me that does want to know, if you had five minutes with the new prime minister, what you would ask her. But perhaps it wouldn't be about your topic i mean it'd be to

maybe restructure the sex education um curriculum there you go there you go it wasn't going to be about the uh the orgasm gap although that's what the big o focuses on and much more which is out today yes congratulations aloni lovely to have you on the studio and to talk to you today as many have before and will continue to do so. Now, we've also been talking a lot on the programme about female friendships over the past couple of weeks. For instance, if you missed my interview the other day with the novelist Kamala Shamsi, that was on Tuesday's programme.

You can catch back up on BBC Sounds. That's the subject, especially about childhood friendships, of our interview. But can you fix a friendship that has broken? Should you try? Daniela and Natalia, Dan and Nat, are both 33. They live in London and Jo Morris went to talk to them separately about their long friendship.

She began by asking about the tattoos they both have as a mark of the bond between them. Accounts differ as to what the number seven tattoos actually stand for. Let's hear from Daniela first. I got such a bad tattoo. How old were you when you got that tattoo? Counts differ as to what the number seven tattoos actually stand for. Let's hear from Daniela first. Oh, God, it's such a bad tattoo. How old were you when you got that tattoo? Sadly, like, in our mid-20s.

Old enough to know better. We have a seven tattoo because we met in Year 7. We decided to get matching tattoos, but then she went and got hers done by herself. It's a little bit wonkily drawn, have to say yours is quite elegant isn't it yeah hers is less elegant and it always everyone thinks it's an l so we decided we wanted to get a tattoo and i was leaving for hong kong maybe there was a miscommunication but i was like well I just get it she's so angry about this she is so angry I really wanted to cement our friendship did she explain to you what it was you tell me

tell me your version of I love it because it's the quote from on the road by Jack Kerouac it's the page number but now looking back on it it's definitely like the page number of that edition of on the road by Jack Kerouac it makes us sound like tossers but I think it's the page number but now looking back on it it's definitely like the page number of that edition of On The Road by Jack Kerouac. It makes us sound like tossers but I think it's helpful for understanding how we see our friendship. The only people for me are the mad ones the ones who are mad to live mad to talk mad to be saved desirous of everything at the same time the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing but burn burn burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue center light pop and everybody goes ah puts how we feel about our friendship into words

i love a tattoo i love a tattoo to cement a time in her life it's nice to know she's with me. And is the seven for anything else? Oh, was it? I don't think so. Maybe it was. Was it? She said it was something to do with year seven as well. Dan, if you were on a friendship dating site, you and Natalia, do you think you'd put you two together? No.

No? Absolutely not. And that's why I think it's so beautiful. We're two completely different people. How are you different? In every single way. Even when we first met, I don't think anyone would have thought, oh, those two are born to be friends.

But there's obviously a reason why we were inseparable from the off. I don't know whether it was fascination at the beginning, like, oh, what is this other creature who thinks and behaves and operates completely differently to me? I think I'm a far more compassionate and kind and operates completely differently to me. I think I'm a far more compassionate and kind and open person because of her. I don't really know what I've taught her. Hopefully it's equally rewarding for her.

Hopefully. Can you let me know tomorrow? I'll ask her and come back to you on that one. What's your earliest memory? Of Daniella? We'd met already in Year 7. The began I believe in year eight we were at lunch and there was a big group of us and Daniella got her Lunchables lunch out and somebody was like oh what's that and that was the thing I was very used to hearing at school generally anyway because I was Russian and I always had like

salami in my lunch or something and everyone smells or whatever and I remember sitting with her and being like don't worry they're like this to me all the time and then we walked around the school playground calling everyone sheep because we thought we were better than everyone else probably but actually I think that's not that we thought we were better than everyone else that's like why don't we fit in here why are we such dorks and everyone's really seems to be doing just fine I don't think anyone was doing just fine were they but that was we'd found each other one minute Natalia was in my life and that's it I don't really remember like a particular day I know there's before Natalia and there was after Natalia how old do you think you were god you're gonna kill me for this wrong she's gonna kill you

she talks about oh have you forgotten yeah oh god no those relationships so you got like the bloke who's just always forgets like anniversaries and all the important things that the other person really cares about that's how i feel right now do you remember it's like our childhood for both of us so what had your life been like up to that point more interesting than most children's i think so i came here as a an asylum seeker when i was five from russia my granddad died under mysterious circumstances and some threats were made to my family that basically meant that we had to leave. We lived with my grandmother.

My mum had already divorced my dad. My life was great. My mum did an extraordinary job of never letting me see that we were actually going through hell as a family. So what did you like about Dan? What was the attraction? We used to laugh a lot. It was easy with her and I could tell her things

and she actually cared about what you were saying. I know that her life wasn't simple and that the women in her family hadn't had a great time. So she had, like, stepdads and, you know, various situations where they'd, like, leave her on her own and stuff like that. How did being friends with Dan make you feel? Safe. Safety is really important for me because of everything.

We'd both had hard times and we both weren't acknowledging them. I guess in our school it wasn't cool to be smart or read, but she was from a Russian background. She was like, oh, can you tell me more about reading and those things? I was like, where are you from? What planet have you come from? I'm from a council estate in Kilburn, an area in London. From a certain type of working-class background, you're not exactly encouraged to be smart or bookish.

I remember meeting her and I was like, oh, my God, she's so smart. She was gifted and talented, clever. She was ungifted and talented. I was not. Did she help you with your homework? Oh yeah, she used to do it for me. You used to do the homework, you both? Yeah, all of it.

I can't take credit for all of her homework, her entire academic career, but yeah. Are you the smart one in the relationship? No, absolutely not when natalia showed an interest how did it make you feel curious i think she said you used to walk home and i'm calling people sheep yeah she loves that memory arrogant little kids did you like going to her house when you're younger loved it i must have spent like three days a week there i arrogantly convinced myself i could speak russian because i understood what they were saying but actually it's just i kind of could get the I could get the gist because I knew their body language didn't speak a

word of Russian what did your mum think of Natalia loves her still loves her considers her another daughter it wasn't exactly easy at home but it wasn't easy for her at home either so maybe that's also part of it I think we both just understood each other did your family like Dan yeah they loved her the Nyoka the Nyoka granny used to make us breakfast on the weekend but did you think you'd be best friends forever yeah doesn't everyone what did you think Dan when you were approached to talk about your friendship with natalia female friendships are powerful i think and they're incredible but it's not all rosy and sweet i think there's they're flawed and they're they can break and they can be stressful and they can be all the horrible and painful things that make any relationship but i think i was really excited to

explore the the more complicated sides of female friendship rather than this twee version of it that I sometimes think we're peddled as women. Then something changed. Yes. So what changed? I think this is a bigger part of Natalia's story than mine, to be honest. She got into a really good school.

I was very happy for her, probably, but also, like, oh, this is this is rubbish isn't it did it seem like an option to you at the time no no but nothing like that did that's that's immigrant life those were the most difficult times for me at home in all the school years and she wasn't there she was there but she was growing at her own pace and I don't think I was dealing with anything very well so when you looked at Daniela's new friends what did you say I thought that was really cool you're jealous yeah of course I was of course I was I was really jealous I was jealous that she had friends I was jealous that she had a life I was jealous that

she had places to be do you know what I mean she had like plans every Friday and I remember being like oh okay I don't have plans every Friday I didn't change but it's just context right I went from being a bit of a boffin and well behaved and never getting a detention to getting a detention within a couple of days automatically went from being seen as like the posh one to being called rude girl within my first few days seen as a troublemaker and really I was really good and like it's interesting that Natalia wasn't part of that but I guess I had to do that alone there was no way I could be in that world it was hers I think class is a really big thing for both of us I don't think I realised anything about class

until way after university, after I'd experienced it, looked back on it and went, that's why I didn't get what they were talking about. So how did you eventually end up not talking? What happened? There was some drama. There's some 17-year-old drama. I'd done something not great.

I confided in a friend, and in that I probably said one detail too many. I was trying to confide about how I was feeling, but I added details of things that were said because I just talk and talk and talk. And it ended up that everyone was angry at Daniella for something because of that, and then Daniella was in turn angry at me for telling everyone a private conversation that we were having between me and her and she called you yeah what did she say can you remember where you were yeah i was outside of school it was really

sunny and she called me and asked me if i'd told someone something and i remember not even asking the details i just said yes. Like, I admitted to get one straight away. And then she said, don't call me again. She didn't devastate me. I was just annoyed. She wouldn't mind me saying that she liked to gossip, she liked to talk. That was her way of connecting with people. I remember thinking, I totally know what's happened here. I know you.

I feel like it was more me setting boundaries than there was anything else I needed space and I went home and I went upstairs and I closed the curtains and I just lay there and cried honestly that was the worst breakup I've ever had genuinely that nothing hurts more than that someone's angry at her because of a thing that I've told someone, and that's not fair. And I remember that being, like, a real thing of shame for me. I'd caused upset for someone who doesn't deserve it. And that's not fair. Really the worst breakup you've ever had? Yeah.

So worse than romantic relationships? Yeah. Yeah. Why? Because boys don't matter. They come and go, and I say that with all the love in my heart for John who I hope I'll marry one day but you can survive without a boy you can't survive without the person that knows everything about you how long did you stop talking to each other for about three years

I think did you miss her I was ashamed so it was hard to think about it. Did you think in that time you didn't see each other that she was thinking about you at all? I hope so. I think so. She forgets when people do bad things to her really quickly. Do you? No. No, I don't. I remember. So aren't I lucky?

I got a friend that does forget. Did you miss her? I didn't dwell on it. But yeah, of course I did. Did you think that she'd be thinking about you? No. Why not? I don't know.

It just felt like we were living separate lives and I didn't think she'd had anything to miss. We didn't talk for a few years until my mum bumped into her while picking up my little sister from school and she said that she'd bumped into natalia and she said like she was like seemed really really really upset i think you should like message her and that surprised me I didn't didn't occur to me that she'd be upset why not I guess in my head in my teenage head she betrayed me so obviously she wasn't interested in our friendship and didn't care about me so I

thought cutting ties wouldn't have affected her so I think I was taking her back to hear that she was upset I don't even know how we made up, I guess, but we did. We met in the downstairs, like, food court in M&S in Oxford Street. It was like no time had passed. It was, it's actually incredible. Maybe it's those years of formation together, but it was just like, yeah, so how's life? Oh my God, this thing's happening.

And it was just that, that was it it and we just became best friends again it was the easiest thing in the world were you nervous before you met her yeah I was nervous I was like going on a date calm sweaty and shaking so do you think looking back do you think you needed to have that time apart 100% we needed to have that time apart We also needed to just be ourselves in our own lives and just grow up. And I needed to find myself in a thing I could do well. I needed to figure out whether I could do homework without someone fixing it for me.

Do you know what I mean? And I needed to know whether I was smart enough to study and actually get a good... I needed all of those things. I think she was really, really apologetic and I think she was giving herself far too much of a hard time about the whole thing and that's why it comes up. Whereas really, it was just kids doing stupid things.

She gossiped, everyone gossips. I got hurt. It's fine. So you became friends again in your early 20s? Yeah. And then has it been plain sailing from there? Absolutely not. It hasn't. No, of course not, no.

Next time, Nat and Dan explain how romantic relationships have complicated their friendship. How do you tell a friend her boyfriend isn't good enough for her and then support her when she's able to leave him? We've also published an article about their friendship on our website and we'll share it

on our social media channels too. So thank you to them for sharing so much about their friendship on our website and we'll share it on our social media channels too so thank you to them for for sharing so much about their friendship and i'm sure many of you will be able to relate as you have been doing to these pieces on friendship i've just been talking to aloni a sex expert who's favored by gen z because of how she tackles the issues on social media quite a few of you got in touch off the back of that. I love a young person thinking they've discovered sex for pleasure. I'm 62 and I've always had it for pleasure, alone or with a partner. Another one here. Hello, Woman's Out. Where has this millennial been?

Talking about alone. Most of the sex stuff she's on about was stale news. By the end of the 60s, maybe she and her contemporaries should speak to their grandmas before asserting that they have just discovered some of this stuff, says Brenda. And yet another one here saying, I've just been listening to your piece on the big O and talking about the orgasm gap and I've had to pull over the car in tears. I'm 52. I've never thought about my own pleasure. I've faked orgasms all my life. Lastly, as part of placating an abusive partner. I'm not ready to enter the world of sex again, but your programme has given me hope today

that maybe one day I can do so in a healthy way. And that's from Kay. Thank you very much for that. I hope you're okay. Especially as you've just expressed, you know, difficult time and also huge emotion. Another one here saying, surprising to hear your sex expert guest

talking about liberating women from the idea that sex is only for procreation. Really? Again, as a child of the 60s, I can assure her this idea was considered old-fashioned 60 years ago and so it carries on many of you also getting in touch with your questions for liz trust if you had five minutes in a room what would the first question be as my colleagues on local radio some of them today did why does lizuss still believe in trickle-down economics and the idea that making the rich richer will eventually help the poor?

There's a question there. Thank you for your company today. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm John Wilson, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast series, This Cultural Life.

In each episode, I ask leading artistic figures to reveal the most important people, events and cultural works that have had a profound impact on their own creativity. It was just so different. It was so away from everyone. It just blew my mind. I didn't know about this. I just was confronted by it. And to me, this was art, you know, I felt art. We didn't know we were going to be there for years. But I mean, I honestly would have shot that thing for five years. I didn't care. People like Nicole Kidman, Goldie, Armando Iannucci, Jarvis Cocker, Hannah Gadsby, Tracey Emin, Paul McCartney and James Corden. It means a great deal to me, that show. You realise how extraordinarily uplifting it can be to share an experience with 1,500 people. The people whose work we love talking about the work that they love.

Search for This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds. I'm very emotional now, thank you. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.