Woman's Hour - Olympian cyclist Dame Laura Kenny, Actor Imogen Poots, Pornography series

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

Dame Laura Kenny, Britain's most decorated female Olympian, talks to Emma Barnett about her sporting career, motherhood and her decision to quit cycling.Are we staying in more since the pandemic? We talk to Kate Nicholls OBE, CEO of UK Hospitality, and Ellen Scott, Acting Digital Content Director at Stylist Magazine. Our pornography series continues with 'Elaine', a woman in her late 60s who's worried about her husband's porn use. Followed by a discussion about the effect habitual porn use has on our brains with Dr Paula Hall, a Sexual & Relationship Psychotherapist, and Professor Valarie Voon, Neuropsychiatrist and Neuroscientist at the University of Cambridge.Actor Imogen Poots is starring in a new film about the English heiress turned IRA bomber and art thief Rose Dugdale called Baltimore. Imogen tells Emma about her approach to the role. After today’s programme aired, the news broke that Rose Dugdale has died aged 83.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Andy Garner

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. I hope you had a lovely weekend and speaking of which, did you go out? I'm asking because that's one of the things we're going to talk about on today's programme. New figures suggest that the number of visits to tourist attractions in the UK remain below pre-pandemic levels. That's according to the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions, which believes many people have become used to not going out. Is that you or is that someone that you're close to? I do want to, while having this conversation today and getting your experiences,

recognise those trying to live with long Covid, which affects nearly twice as many women as men, and those still shielding. The approximate 1.2 million people out there still classed as immunocompromised because of their conditions and their medicines make the Covid vaccine ineffective. I'm also aware of the cost of living crisis and how those two things coming out of lockdown and that can come together and lead to fewer outings, fewer day trips, fewer feelings that you want to go out perhaps. But there is also underneath this or overlaying this perhaps a new norm. And it will take some time, as we have heard from psychologists through to doctors, through to educationalists to realise what lockdowns have done to us as a society the world over

and how things perhaps still aren't back to how they were. And in some cases, that will be good. This is not to say this is necessarily a negative, but when it comes to going out, have you relearned? Have you got that muscle back? What has changed? What is different in your life? What's your response when I talk to you about making plans? Do you recoil? Have you got a bit too used to the coziness of the home? Do get in touch.

84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. We're going to hear from a woman who's got a coffee bar now inside her home, including a menu, I believe. But I'll find out more about that. She hasn't been going out that much. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email or send a WhatsApp message, 03700 100 444.

Looking forward to hearing what you say on this issue. Also on today's programme, the extraordinary story of an English heiress called Rose Dugdale, you may remember this, turned IRA bomber, an art thief. She's still alive today, living in a Catholic nursing home, and the actor Imogen Poots is playing her in a new film, and we'll be here to tell all. And we'll have the latest in our porn series with some experts to talk about some of your questions that have been coming in over the last few weeks. But first, to the Queen of the Olympics, as she's called by some,

Dame Laura Kenny, the most successful female Great Britain Olympic athlete in history, has just announced her retirement from cycling. Laura is the winner of five Olympic golds, seven world championship titles, and the first British woman to win a gold medal at three consecutive Olympics. She's married to the former cyclist Sir Jason Kenny, who's done pretty well too, and they have two sons.

Laura joins me now on the line from the BBC studios in Salford. Good morning. Hello. The news is out there. How do you feel? Well, I mean, relief more than anything, to be honest, that I can actually talk about it finally. I mean, it's not been a decision that has been made for very long. It's only been about 10 days two weeks but I mean for me to be able to actually sit here now and talk about it rather than be like oh I hope nobody asks about

whether I'm going to compete um it's nice yeah what made you go that way I mean just a sacrifice for me with the kids just it does it's just not worth it now for me um it's just too much and it's too hard to leave them behind you know for me with albie it felt right it felt like i was 100 committed and i was totally in for going and trying to win another gold medal but this time it felt different from the get-go for me like just initially obviously monty comes along and i found myself not really relying on the grandparents anymore like it was me wanting to look after them and look after him sorry and then my training having to kind of take a back seat and then the more people that were asking me oh you know what training sessions are you going to do or what races are you going to go to it just filled me with dread

like I just felt sick even talking about it and the thought of having to leave them behind was just I was just like I don't know how I the thought of having to leave them behind was just, I was just like, I don't know how I'm going to do that. I don't know how I'm physically going to do that. And it's not a case now of, well, they can all come with, because obviously Albie's at school. And so it was just a compromise too far for me this time. What do you think it is going from one to two children

that made you feel like that? I was looking at some other athletes this morning and if that's also been a bit of a trend with women. I mean, I'm not sure whether it's between one to two or whether, you know, I was quite open talking about having a miscarriage and the topic. I think maybe that had more of a thing to play in it than I'd ever kind of realize or anticipated um just when he

come along when monty come along all i ever wanted for albie was a sibling i just always saw albie as a big brother and for that to maybe not happen and for me maybe not to have another baby then once he was here and i did have another one i just didn't want to waste that time I just didn't want to see his little life I mean he's eight months tomorrow I don't know where that's gone and I've been there with him every step you know and I just maybe I can now sit here and say I took Albie for granted a little bit how easy it was to have Albie how easy everything seemed at the time I could just ask my parents to come and look after him was Whereas this time, I just didn't want to. I wanted that to be me.

I didn't want to miss anything. And only eight months, I suppose. It's a huge amount of pressure to get back and be at the level that you are. Yeah, I mean, with Albie, I mean, I rode a bike six weeks after giving birth with Albie. But at the time, that felt right. Cool, cool, casual, yeah.

Just back on that. The thought of a bike being anywhere near between people's legs, women's legs, after birth is a thought. But yes, carry on. Well, I mean, I guess we're used to saddle sore. It's just like an extended version, right? That's one way of putting it. You're the Olympian here.

No, I mean, it just seemed right then you know i was very in i was fully committed to it whereas this time the recovery was already longer it was 12 weeks before i rode a bike again um and it's just a lot like it's just a lot to leave someone so young who was feeding like i mean i'm still breastfeeding him and for me it just it's a lot to have to sacrifice and it just there wasn't very many things motivating me to sacrifice it I just I didn't have that motivation anymore I suppose the pressure was also there about having to qualify for the Olympics so soon yeah so I mean the qualification ends in april um so the last race i would have had to go to is just after easter weekend and it just yeah the pressure of that like and the thought of

having to race before then was really daunting for me because it meant i was gonna have to leave them soon and sharpish and i just couldn't i just didn't i just didn't want to do it and it's funny actually because when when we talk about this, obviously I've read other people's and like Tom Daley saying how his little boy said, Daddy, I want to see you at the Olympics. But when I actually asked Albie, he didn't want mummy to go away anymore. And I think the fact that he was realising that mummy was going away, I mean, he doesn't even want me to go down to London today.

But just the thought that he's sad about that I just couldn't live with I was just like it's especially when you're not really that driven to do it anymore how old is he now he's six I'll be six and then yeah I mean they do know what to say don't they I also have a six-year-old and a one-year-old so we're in a similar age gap territory and and I suppose it's just interesting, and I know it's very different fields, but last week the singer Lily Allen said, my children ruined my career. I love them and they complete me.

But in terms of pop stardom, they totally ruined it. I mean, you can't say that in terms of your first, as you've described, and what you went on to go and do. But what do you say to those women who are listening and thinking, oh, come on, Laura, I want you to get back on that bike. You know, it's your choice. They'll respect that. But just that idea of what then changes. I mean, I think you've just got to be prepared.

Like I actually got asked this the other day. Someone said to me, was it worth, like, can you do both? Can you have everything? And I would say you can. Yeah. And I could have, you can, yeah. And I could have got back on the bike and I could have possibly qualified for the next Olympics. But you've got to think it's worth it because in the long run,

it's your happiness that you're toying with here, you know? And it was mayhem. Like, so taking Albie around the world, travelling around the world with him and qualifying for the Tokyo Olympics was absolute carnage. And I think Jason and I had this way of painting this really beautiful and easy picture and the picture that everyone wants. You know, you can have a baby. You can come back. You can go on to win a gold medal.

And it looks easy. And I'm telling you, it was far from easy. It was absolute carnage. And there were so many sacrifices along the way. There were so many flights that I had to book here, there, everywhere. It was expensive. It was everything, you know. It worked, yes. But it didn't come without some seriously heartbreaking sacrifices.

I mean, the only time that Albie remembers mummy being sad was when you go on a holding camp before the Olympics. You have two weeks where you are locked away, basically, especially because it was COVID time. So we were quite literally locked away. And he came with us to Wales. But then after that, we were flying to Tokyo. And now the Olympics Association wouldn't let anyone who wasn't competing come. So Albie couldn't come to the Olympics. And I had to say goodbye. And it was horrendous. And I just couldn't hold back the tears because it's three weeks. It's a long, I've never been away from him, you know?

And it was such a long time to be away from him. And that's the only time that Albie ever remembers mum being sad. And it's those sacrifices and those thoughts that it can work, but it's not perfect. There's no way that any of it's those sacrifices and those thoughts that it can work but it's not perfect there's no way that any of it's perfect and it just comes with massive sacrifice that you have to ultimately be happy with living with i suppose you've also got this quite unique setup where both parents are doing the same or have been doing the same job so you know again those questions of if you were supported and and you know and you are

supported but if you were going on and going on with this for yourself um leaving your partner your husband to to pick this up maybe that's the way to do it but it sounds like you've both had that experience of of finding it difficult oh definitely yeah i mean i think it would be different i think like you say we were in a very unique situation um where we were both going and so it was almost worse because as much as we were leaving him with my mum and dad like obviously I trust them with my life but it was just it's a very different kind of it's not like you can just pick up the phone every second and be like what's he doing now what's he doing now or can he go and do this can you make sure he's got his school bag it's just different when it's not the other parent looking after him but also i think even if jason

wasn't riding and obviously he's taking on a coaching role so he would be going to the olympics anyways he would still have to work so it would still feel like they weren't getting the attention that they ultimately need as little ones what are are you going to do now? Are you going to chill at home? What's the plan? I mean, we've got a small petting farm on the go at home at the minute. But no, honestly, I've got interest in so many different things that I want to get my teeth stuck into. It's funny because cycling just takes up so much time.

Like it is literally 24- 24 7 and so now to be able to step back and go actually what am I interested in I want to do something where I'm giving back to the younger generation definitely um that's always kind of been in my heart um but also the more time I've had away because obviously when you're pregnant that is your maternity leave when you're an athlete it's not it's not really the after um but i've had time to work with the media and i've had time to do lots of things a bit like this and i actually really enjoy it so something along those lines but i mean to be honest i'm pretty open to anything i bet you are and i'm sure there'll be a long queue of people waiting to talk to you before i let you go i was just looking back through your your original journey

to cycling and it was it your mum who got you into this this is a sort of a tale of women your mum and your sister getting into at the same time with you yeah that's right yeah so my mum chose cycling I mean obviously it wasn't just cycling but she chose cycling in the form of losing weight she lost eight and a half stone in a year and a half wow I mean obviously she changed eating habits and stuff but yeah yeah, it really started with my mum. Well, I mean, it all started there because had she not decided she was going to get on a bike, well, we wouldn't have done either.

Well, there you go. And you left trampolining, I believe. So that was a good bounce. I said about that earlier because I was like, I didn't even really like cycling, to be totally honest. I wanted to beat my sister. Well, there you go. It all comes back to that. and you wanted that sibling relationship and you've got it within your own home and uh we'll see what the competitiveness brings but for now um Dame Laura Kenny our most

successful female Great Britain Olympic athlete in history no less I suppose you could put your feet up for the rest of the day if you wanted it's good to have you on the program thank you oh thank you thanks for having me and thank you for your honesty there, talking about how it really has been and how it was taking a little one on that Olympic trail and some of the reasons behind that decision that's just been announced this morning of her retirement. Well, I did ask about what you're doing with your time and if you have any spare time, if you're still going out or not, because new figures suggest that the number of visits to tourist attractions in the UK remains below pre-pandemic levels. The Association of Leading Visitor Attractions said there were 147 million visits to major venues last year,

11% down on the 164 million visits in 2019. The trade body believes many people have become used to not going out. To talk about this and how it's affected them and what they've seen, I'm joined by Kate Nicholls, chief executive of UK Hospitality, that group representing many of those in the hospitality trade, of course, had a great deal of difficulty during the lockdown period. And Ellen Scott, acting digital content editor at Stylist magazine. Morning to you both. Kate, just to start with you, one glimpse of perhaps some of our habits changing here with these figures. What do you make of them? Well, good morning. Yes, I think, first of all, I'd say quite heartening in some respects, because what you're actually seeing here is year on year increases.

So having come through COVID, where these businesses were closed for the best part of two years, you are seeing 19% increase on 2022, 25% increase in Wales and Scotland and London. So recovering quite rapidly for those bigger markets. Yes, they are still down on pre-COVID levels of footfall, but encouraging signs that people are getting back into the habit of going out and spending time socialising with family and friends. It mirrors what we're seeing in eating and drinking out as well where people are going out a little bit more frequently and a little bit more than these figures suggest

but it does show that we are on the mend and moving towards recovery. What do you think though it says about perhaps some of the changes in our behaviour though even if we're going in that direction that, you know, you as someone who has to, in your position, represent this industry, lobby damage that was done to these businesses, don't realise how long it's taken for them to recover. It underlines the reason why government needs to continue to support them. And it was very welcome to see museum and gallery tax relief coming through in the budget to support these major visitor attractions, which are down more substantially than eating and drinking out. But this is why businesses are finding it such a struggle. You're not recovering in terms of volume. You're not recovering in terms of revenue and spend. But the costs of doing business have got greater. So it does underline the fragility of the sector. But we are seeing people still valuing going out and socialising.

And I think that's one of the trends that we've seen post-COVID. When we couldn't do it, you don't know what you've got till it's gone. And people do still see it as valuable to them, but clearly in cost of living pressures, it's difficult to be able to afford to be able to go out as frequently as people might want to do. Yes. And as I mentioned, when I began this conversation, we've got lots of messages, I'll come to do. Yes, and as I mentioned when I began this conversation, we've got lots of messages, I'll come to them in just a moment. You know, I'm mindful of that, you know, those things coming together. But you and I spoke a lot during the pandemic.

I remember you coming on and as we were talking, everything starting to shut down. It was extraordinary. And as you say, people not knowing what they missed until it was gone. But have you personally been impacted your behaviour in the way you go out, what you do? Have you had a look at that? And, you know, it would have taken a toll on you, that whole experience. Absolutely. I mean, that sort of two, two and a half years of relentless pressure of supporting

an industry that was dying on its knees and the pressure of supporting three million people's jobs through it, it did take a toll. I found myself stuck at home. So I've probably had the opposite experience of what you might think from some of these numbers. I couldn't wait to get back out. I really needed to get back out and socialise and go out and meet people. I didn't want to do any more cooking and washing up at home and trying to bake at the same time as as doing interviews and media stuff. And I wanted to get back to culture. So I really appreciated being able to go back out and just walk into galleries. Again, you forget that we had to book. You couldn't go out regularly.

You had to pre-book. You had to be limited in time slots to be able to just pop in a lunch hour to go to the National Gallery or the British Museum. I'm very fortunate in working close to that. That that is great to be able to do. We did a recent survey. Two thirds of customers said that eating and drinking out and socialising with family and friends was their top priority when they did have discretionary spend. And it was as important to them as it had been post-COVID, post-pandemic, pre-pandemic. Yes. It does suggest that people do want to go back to that. But not everyone, because I am looking through this and it's interesting to see some of these messages coming in. So glad you've raised this, read this message.

I think it's a hidden problem. It's embarrassing to raise to friends and family as we're all meant to be OK. And over those one to two years, we were locked down. My experience was fine at the time as I worked from home, as did my partner, so cannot complain. But the long tail is a source of agoraphobia. I guess it's being studied now and being looked at, which is a positive. Another one here. My relationship with weekends in general has become a bit strange since the pandemic. I work from home four slash five days a week. And so by the weekend, I'm desperate to go out and see something different. I still find it hard to get out during the working week. So the weekend can be the first time I've properly been out all week.

Not good. I know, says Harriet listening in Hertfordshire. Good morning. Thank you for acknowledging that some of us cannot be safely vaccinated and for asking how we are. I wait for warm days so I can safely share a meal outdoors with a friend. And so it goes on with your relationship with going out and how things perhaps have or haven't changed. Ellen Scott, good morning.

Hi. You've also got a take on this, haven't you, in terms of where you feel most comfortable? What's your life like in terms of going out at the moment? I am definitely a homebody. I am very introverted. I always have been. But I think since the pandemic, that's definitely ramped up. I think also with the cost of living, that's maximised by saying home time.

During the pandemic, I was in a tiny studio flat with no proper doors. Now I'm in an actual house that we have, me and my partner and I have bought. I think that because we've spent so long saving that money and working towards this house, I'm now like, I want to make the most of my money. I want to use this house every minute of the day. I'm not leaving the house unless it's something special. So what does that look like week to week? I mean, how often would you say you're going out? So I leave the house twice a week to go to work.

I'm in the office two days a week. The rest of the time, I pretty much am at home. I'll sometimes go out for a weekend if you know it's someone's wedding or one of my friends will have a really lovely dinner party um or I'll occasionally go to like an exhibition but in general I'm not going to one of those things unless I already have sorry unless I already have a reason to leave the house take a a pause. You've just got that frog in your throat. I can hear it. Sorry.

No, no, it's fine. Because what I was going to say is, you know, there's some things coming together there and I'm also seeing on the messages about cost of living as well. And in your case, you've saved very hard as most do for where you live now. So you're going to get your value for your money. I can hear that.

But there's also something interesting perhaps there around what home has become to people and and maybe they're changing relationship with it yeah for me it's a place of comfort I've made this place where I feel most comfortable I'm not going to be stressed out anxious I definitely noticed that in the pandemic I had a lot of anxiety around public transport, being out with crowds of people feeling like, I know people aren't looking at me, but feeling like very observed. I think that stuck around. Even now when I'm going out, I tend to only really go to things if I can cycle to them. If it's going to require a lengthy rush

hour train journey, I'm very, very reluctant to go out. Do you think that, you know, one of the concerns, again, it fits in with working from home about not having to leave the home more, that it doesn't get people who may have already been inclined in that way to get out of themselves. And sometimes that means you're not going to have opportunities or experiences that you wouldn't have just stumbled into before because you had to. Do you worry about that at all? Honestly, yeah. I think that if I had the option to only work from home, I think that would be really negative for my mental health. I think the days that I do go into the office are hugely helpful. I'm chatting with people, I'm getting my ideas flowing, meeting new people.

Those have been hugely helpful. It's just that I need it in limited amounts. Two days for me in the office is perfect. A few weekends out, ideal. If I were going out constantly or having to be in the office five days a week, I think I'd find that too much now. Fascinating. Ellen Scott, Acting Digital Content Director at Stylist magazine.

Before that, you were listening to Kate Nicholls, the Chief Executive of UK Hospitality. Let me give you a bit more of a flavour of these messages coming in. Hello. Locking us indoors and away from each other was a complete aberration. Therefore, I feel did not inculcate solitary habits in us. Our normal social habits kicked back in quickly and easily, or at least did for me.

I don't give a moment's thought to not going somewhere and have completely got back to normal. in us. Our normal social habits kicked back in quickly and easily, or at least did for me. I don't give a moment's thought to not going somewhere and have completely got back to normal. And funnily enough, I'm not even that sociable, says Debbie listening. Hello to you. I take my cue from my children for going out and their resilience and appetite for social and stimulating environments has really changed since lockdown. Every weekend we would have lovely day trips, but now they just want to stay at home. They find crowds and noisy environments overwhelming, overstimulating and exhausting. The theatre boring and too difficult to concentrate on and eating out just too much. They were eight and ten when it hit.

And I think this was a crucial time for their development. I worry about the long term effects on our kids, says Caitlin, listening in Cardiff. Fascinating to read that as well. I will come back to more of those messages. But again, just to give you a flavour, some people talking about the cost of living and how that has affected it, and it's pretty simple. And another one, since COVID, young people are glamorising,

we should say some, I think, staying in and cleaning the house rather than going out and socialising. There are so many Instagram trends of romanticising the mundane aspects of your life. I'll come back to those shortly. But some of you may remember the extraordinary story of an English heiress called Rose Dugdale, turned IRA bomber and art thief. Some of you won't, but she's still alive today, living in a Catholic nursing home and will, like all of you,

be able, if she wants to, to watch a new film about her actions. It's called Baltimore and it stars my next guest, the actor Imogen Poots, who's just walked in to the Woman's Hour studio. The plot focuses on the days in April 1974 that followed the largest art theft in Irish history, which Dugdale masterminded and carried out in County Wicklow. She and three others forced their way into a stately home, pistol-whipping the elderly owner and his wife before tying and gagging them.

They then stole 19 old masters valued at 8 million Irish puns, including paintings by Gainsborough, Rubens, Vermeer and Goya. A massive police search ensued. In the film, we see Rose waiting in a safe house, then trying to avoid detection and reflecting on her, as I say, extraordinary life up till that point. Imogen Poot's playing her. Good morning. Good morning.

Well, I was going to say, why did you want to take that role? But I can't think. Well, I think a lot of actors would jump at the opportunity to play a character like her um because she's certainly not a dull protagonist for a second and I think the psychological landscape of a person like her is so intriguing and complicated um and the directors are really up for trying to kind of problem solve that type of individual. So it was sort of a no brainer for me.

I hadn't heard of her before the project. And then, of course, you open this entire sort of archive and there's so much information about Rose Dugdale. And she's one of those crucial figures that can often fall between the cracks historically between sort of larger events and then you realize oh gosh she was part of this movement and informed by things beforehand and probably was a catalyst for things that came after too. I mean as I said the film focuses on the few days after the art theft and the first we're aware to be led by a woman the biggest of its kind in Ireland what is the take on on those who've researched her writing this on why she did it? and brought up in a very affluent way. She had a very, very privileged upbringing and turned her back on all of that because of her passion for the Republican movement in Ireland.

And you can see that sort of in the early days when she went to Oxford, she was very instrumental in breaking into the men's union and active in her own way there. But it was strange because Virginia Ironside, who was a schoolmate of Rose Dugdale, you can find an interview with her and she talks about sort of how charismatic this person was

and how beguiling and fun. And it's fascinating that someone like that would become a monster eventually. And she felt, I think, very, very angry and very sort of stringently held into a class system that she just felt didn't reflect her values or what she cared about. And I think she had a pretty ferocious ego at that time too which helps. Yes I mean she was presented to the monarchy you know sort of a coming out ceremony I was reading myself some of this like you say you open this up and it's just you go more and more in and there will be

some of our listeners who remember this story in the news and then you know it's one thing I suppose to reject your upbringing your privilege and some said she was you know radicalized essentially at university by the idea she was having she also quite literally broke into the male debating union that's right dressed as a man yeah uh putting on a deep voice to ask questions but then it's a whole other thing i suppose to go to the criminal level yeah i think bloody sunday Yeah, I think Bloody Sunday was a pretty pivotal moment for her. Because I expect after that sort of, she was never, the IRA never acknowledged her as one of them, but she was always affiliated with them. And I think sort of around that time, once she met Eddie Gallagher, she began to become far more violent in her activism and really extreme radicalism was what it was at that point. She did become a terrorist. So, yeah, it's that sort of fascinating journey from perhaps when you're a younger woman and you're surrounded by liberal thinkers,

you can enter into a phase of thinking you may go down that route of being an activist. And then, of course, she sort of graduated into this very violent arena. And Eddie Gallagher became her husband. That's right. You know, when thinking about this, often these sorts of stories, they seem like from another time.

And in some ways they are, but they're also very recent history. And there'll be hugely painful memories associated with some of what we're talking about and that era. She is still alive. Did you consider going to meet her or talk with her before you play someone?

It's interesting because you often would jump at that opportunity to meet the person you're playing if they're still alive especially. Part of her still being alive was an issue in the sense of making this film about this person so i think first of all um in terms of the story we wanted to tell it was very important to remain objective um with it because of the um sort of angle that the filmmakers wanted to enter into the story with and the lens but also you know she's a

political figure and quite a sort of dangerous one so I didn't want to sort of um I think it's important not to be too naive when it comes to that um and of course for Rose Dugdale um she speaks uh she's very um consistent with her sort of pride that she was a part of this movement and she doesn't seem to have any regrets at all, at least in sort of recent interviews that are documented. And it's a very edgy subject where we had no interest in glorifying this person. It was quite important to remain as objective as we could. Yes. And for you, I suppose, coming towards this and while she is still alive, I imagine just is a complicating issue. You know, when you think about the fact she can watch it. Yeah, of course. And listen, I'm sure she'll be pretty thrilled that her film was made at all.

Yes. Because, I mean, you say not glamorising, but I suppose by a film being made and also the fact that when you look up the headlines about her, you know, it is something people are perhaps drawn to because of her background as well. Yeah, and it sort of, I suppose, renders your life as something meaningful or important.

That's not to say that it wasn't wrong or violent. But yeah, it's this idea of... It's quite a fascinating story and I think despite the fact of the violence involved, it's just watching a human progress to that level. What are you willing to lose or sacrifice in order to do that? And also there's a slight madcap amateur nature

to especially the heist that is sort of extraordinary. She pulled it off at all, but she did. This isn't someone who studied engineering for years and years and years. She sort of quite rapidly learned the expertise and then applied it and got away with it. I did read in an interview with you that you, uh, you said, uh, being English, being polite is exhausting. You probably didn't have to lean on those qualities too much in this, in this film. No, it's such a relief. yeah, just to loosen up your bones. No, I think that was a very interesting part of it.

There was a sort of, you know, there was like a punk rock nature to her and we decided that, at least in terms of my interpretation, a sort of gauche-ness, just in order to make sense of that disassociation that would be required to kind of commit these acts. Is it liberating for you to go into something so different then and find that? Oh, yeah. I mean, I feel like I move through the world like a Quentin Blake illustration, like negative space is just like, how do you negotiate it every day? But to play a role where you can sort of, there's a steeliness to her

and a sort of an energy, there's a feral nature to her. She does not care what people think of her. Yeah, well, you know, there you go. And I imagine that that is liberating for you. And when you're in that situation, you can just release. You've acted for a long time. People will be familiar with your work of The Big Break, 28 weeks later, sequel to 28 Days Later. You've been doing so much. And I was looking back through. Are you used sort of ready to have dewy skin.

And then stages where you're just like, it's bread. It's bread now. It's bread face. So it's fascinating to me. I do think you're supposed to have another persona or something. I'm like, oh, always a late bloomer with these things. Fine. Well, you know, I know you going out the same levels post lockdown. I'm getting some interesting messages just before I let you go.

Yeah, I know. I loved hearing all of that. I'm sort of a, I am a bit of a hermit. So leaving the house, I'm always happy when I've done it. Like my mental health is just soaring after I've seen my friends and I've got a lot better. It was good to go out. Yeah, always a good decision. Yeah.

Well, I think that's interesting. You know, people sort of duel with that within themselves as well sometimes. So it's good to reflect. Imogen Poots, thank you so much. Thank you. For coming in. The film is called Baltimore. A message here.

We've not been indoors at a cafe, restaurant, concert or tourist attraction since the pandemic began. My husband's an expert on risk. He looks at how no longer people bother to use sanitiser or other precautions and how they sit in pubs, cafes, coughing and sneezing, apparently oblivious to their neighbours. He looks at the latest COVID figures. He just won't go, says Jay.

Another, my family and I do not go out as much as we did pre-pandemic, but this is much more due to the cost of living crisis and more limited funds than COVID. We've completely moved on from worrying about it. Jenny, thank you very much for that message. Coming back to more of them shortly. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Over the last couple of weeks on Woman's Hour, we've been having a very frank conversation about porn. As we've discovered, this can be tricky. A lot of us don't even talk to our partners or our friends.

Many women and men, as we heard on Friday's programme, are conflicted and confused about porn and its influence on our relationships, self-image and sex lives. A listener we're calling Elaine emailed the programme to ask for information and support. Her husband, like her, is in his late 60s. He's retired, but he's not, as she had hoped, spending his time with her, travelling around and having nice pub lunches and the like. She spoke to our reporter, Enna Miller. Elaine's words, I should say, are read by an actor.

I've discovered that my husband seems to look at an awful lot of porn. How did you discover it? I was wondering what he was doing on his computer hour after hour after hour until the early hours all the time not going out not doing anything occasionally stopping for a cigarette break and again and well I felt obviously he was depressed so I broke into his laptop. What did you discover? Some very unpleasant porn. I discovered what was out there. When you use the word unpleasant what do you deem unpleasant? Naked people who are sometimes performing quite unpleasant sexual acts. I think looking at pages of female bodies' genitalia, to me,

is rather unsettling. And why would a married man of my age, because we are the same age, be looking at this stuff? And what pleasure is there in looking at such things? I don't understand it. Do you not understand it because it's your husband or do you not understand it in general? I know people look at it, but why would somebody want to look at it for hour after hour when they're in a relationship? I think it's been going on a lot when he's stressed. That was when I used to discover porn in his bags or in his suitcase or hidden in a drawer.

I know the trigger points. Stress at work. Sometimes used to be that. He's retired now, but I still look on the laptop fairly regularly and actually search out what he's been looking at and look at what he's been looking at. And I'm sure it's had a major impact on our marriage. I'm quite sure of that. And that's what I find very unsettling and particularly as I feel I'm not getting now any affection at all. And then as a wife who discovers all of this, who do you go and speak to?

Because on the odd occasion I've mentioned it to other women, they laugh about it. Oh, that's what men do. And I'm thinking, really? Because I have a brother and he doesn't. Have you asked him? Yes, yes. Do you think he'd be. Have you asked him? Yes, yes. Do you think he'd be honest with you? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Yes, yes, certainly.

Because we say it's something, or you say it's something, that people don't talk about. So if confronted, would people be honest? Probably not. My brother was the one who showed me how to block a lot of the stuff on the computer, but there are still ways around it, which I've also learned, which I also find very, very upsetting. So I want to take you back, you and your husband, how would you describe your husband? How would you describe your relationship before all this happened? Well,

this is difficult because I think there's been porn around in the marriage over many years. I mean, the language that's used to me when he's cross, when he's frustrated by things I've said or done or not done, then this language comes out, bitch. And frankly, other words I really don't want to repeat. And it's not language I would normally associate with being a professional. Where does that link happen between the porn and you say the language? Could that just be him over a lifetime of marriage

and he's just, oh, doesn't want to do pleasantries anymore? Well, it's one thing being cross with you, but being abusive about your physical attributes, your whole physical nature, the fact that you're overweight and never feeling that your body, your clothes, your whole appearance get any praise at all.

It's just a very negative attitude to it all. Do you compare yourself to what he's looking at? Oh, no, because I'm fat and tubby and that's it. You've tried to talk to him and what's his response? Well, his response is not to talk about it. I mean, literally smile and walk away. Walk out the house, walk out the front door, just will not talk about it. When you try and talk to him, is it a case of, are you enraged? Are you upset? Are you like, look what I've just found again? Are you calm? Well, I've tried a number of approaches, deliberately calm, deliberately quiet about it all. And the reaction I tell you every time he's not discussing or talking about any of it.

Yet, when we're driving along and he might see some woman at the side of the road, which then triggers lewd comments, which I find thoroughly unnecessary and unpleasant. Like? Making comments about these young girls, usually. Their breasts, short skirts and looking at them, even though you're driving. So you're looking to the side, not concentrating on the road, and that will happen. What's your biggest fear with regards to your husband watching porn? My biggest fear is that I'm seeing my grandchildren growing up and I have got a granddaughter. I'm scared that there might

be some sort of physical attraction when she's growing up, you know, tight t-shirts going through all the fashion things that teenage girls do and the lewd comments that'll be made behind the scenes when she's gone. I mean, not necessarily in front of her. Yeah, I'm scared by that. And particularly when I see some of the stuff online where I'm not sure how old they are. Are they under 16? Over 16? Over 18? I have my doubts. Well, what do you do? You know that child porn is illegal. It's wrong. This is not child porn, I don't think, but it scares me. Where do you get helper advice? I don't know there is anywhere. Where have you tried? I did go and see somebody some years ago who worked in porn addiction, but realised at the

end of the session that really the advice was, well, go and speak to him, go and tell him what to do. So, okay, yeah, I went home, tore up the magazines, left them all over the mattress so he couldn't get into bed until he cleared it and a message saying, I find this unacceptable, don't do it again. But now it's all online. It's not so much the magazines anymore. And when you told them not to do it again?

Completely blank, which I would have expected. And that was it. Helplines and support groups, those are all aimed at the person who's looking at the porn. They're not aimed at the partner of somebody. People talk about marriage guidance, and I don't think that's an answer either I thought I'd try that route but my relationship is now so bad

it's very much feeling his pleasure is somewhere else not with me in partnerships there's always things that we don't like that our partner does. And we tolerate it. Is this something you feel that you will just tolerate? I've tolerated because I'm worried that I don't think he's well, but I can't do anything about it. Or I'm scared, financially. I think I've tolerated so much over the years to have a comfortable life. There's nothing anymore to keep me.

Why don't you just leave? I don't know. The truth is I should go, but where do I go? I know that I get quite scared when I'm in the house on my own. And I'd always hoped that maybe there'd be a change. I thought with him stopping work, it would be much more doing things together, going off. But I must admit, I find I just pack my bags and go off on my own. I've travelled the world on my own. It's quite nice sometimes, though though to come home and know that

there's somebody there on the other side of the door but at the same time I know I'm tolerating behaviour that I shouldn't tolerate. I find it very lonely. So I've found my own hobbies to do. I'm really involved in music and take myself off to our local community cafe and meet up with other friends. I've made a real effort not to be at home because in some ways I'm quite scared of the silence and the loneliness. You'd said something to me which I found really poignant. You said the time that he was spending watching porn, sometimes you'd have liked to have had that time just for him to give you a hug yes oh yeah yes when my mother died i would have loved a big hug just a cuddle or sometimes just going out once a week to a pub or a cafe making our special treat no he's spending all his time on his laptop looking at porn.

Everything you've told me, if a really good friend of yours was to come and say the same things to you, what would you say to them? Get out. Elaine there, talking to Anna Miller. And Elaine is clear that her husband is not viewing images of child sexual abuse. I should also say there are links on our website of organisations that can give information and support if you fear someone is breaking the law in that way. But joining me now are two people I hope might be able to address some of Elaine's concerns and also some of your questions that have come in over the last few weeks. Dr Paula Hall, a sexual and relationship psychotherapist, author of Sex Addiction, The Partner's Perspective, and also the clinical director of Pivotal Recovery, and Professor Valerie Voone, neuropsychiatrist and neuroscientist at the University of Cambridge. Good morning to you both. Paula, if I come to you, how difficult is this sort of behaviour on partners? Oh gosh it is hugely hugely painful I mean just hearing

Elaine's story there is quite heartbreaking isn't it. It's of course impossible to know just from her story whether this is addiction or not or whether this is just a man who's deciding to put his desires and needs ahead of hers but I mean it's got all the hallmarks of addiction it's taking more and more time it's used as a stress relief and the impact it's having on their relationship is huge which is not uncommon with this problem and yeah I really feel for her it's very difficult for her to to be able to address this if he won't accept that he's got a problem. Valerie you've researched porn watching what what happens in our brains when we watch it? We ran a study back several years ago, and if you show people with compulsive sexual behaviour

disorder these pornographic images, it activates the same brain regions as what you'd expect to see with drug use and those with drug addictions. And when we, I mean, as we just heard from Pauli, it's impossible to know here if there is an addiction, but the point is there is a medical condition. Yeah, so this is now accepted as a disorder in the ICD-11, the International Classification of Disorders for Mental Health, and it's called compulsive sexual behaviour disorder. It's under the impulse control disorders.

OK. And so when you see what happens with the brain, what's the treatment or how, if you're listening to this and you're thinking perhaps my partner has this or I know someone who does, what can be done? I think there are two things, basically, putting it very simply, stop, find out what the triggers are. And interestingly, Elaine was talking about triggers, find out what the triggers are, learn to avoid those triggers if possible, and if not develop relapse prevention strategies. But the other critical bit is actually looking at what's driving this. There are, of course, many millions of people out there who use porn recreationally, and it doesn't become a problem for them. It doesn't affect their relationships in this way. So really looking at what's going on underneath, what the deeper psychological issues

might be that are driving the behaviour. I wanted to read you some messages we've had in, anonymous messages. Let me start with this one. I enabled my husband's use of pornography, not knowing he already had an addiction. He was using sex workers, some of them younger than our daughter. I understand why. I am a pleaser. He didn't think this was an issue because he hadn't done anything illegal. I thought watching pornography was what young men did. I thought sex with me wasn't good enough. I tried to fill the perceived gap and engaged in damaging sexual activity. It ruined our marriage and we are divorced after 30 years together. I tried to support him.

He's been diagnosed with OCD with sex. He used me rather to play out his sexual fantasies. It was as if he was creating his own pornography. It's left me deeply traumatised. Paula, what would you say to that? Again, unfortunately, it's left me deeply traumatised. Paula what would you say to that? Again unfortunately it's not uncommon we did some research with pivotal recovery users recently and 47% said that it caused sexual problems within their relationship 60% said it caused conflict. I think it is difficult for partners to really recognise when this is an issue that they need to address. And I think,

as Elaine was saying, I mean, ultimately, it might be a case of leaving the relationship. But I think because we try to be so tolerant, don't we nowadays, we want to be open minded, we feel we live in a society that believes in sexual freedom. And where are those lines? Where is the point at which actually, this is not okay and i guess there's the difference here isn't there with the compulsive sexual behaviors compared to um drinking or drugs your partner may be drinking too much but they're probably not forcing you to drink along with them but for some people certainly not for all but some people with compulsive sexual behaviors that does actually transpose into the couple relationship

as well. There's another email here and I'll bring you in in a moment, Valerie. It says, my elderly dad and many of my friend's elderly dads get addicted to porn and start contacting women for chats. My 80-year-old mother is totally crippled emotionally since she discovered my dad was doing this. She takes it personally. I tell her that old men seem for some reason to get addicted to sex as their virility fades. I think it's part of dementia, but she can't accept this. She wants him to stop or she leaves. He's over 80. And a sort of plea at the end of that message, please discuss this on your programme, as many older women feel desperate about husbands of 50 years doing this.

Paula, again, your take on that? I've been really curious about Valerie's input on this one as well. I think really cases like that do demonstrate that this is actually not really about sex. This is not about libido. This is not about testosterone, which we know will be significantly declining at that age. It's about a dopamine arousal in the brain.

And the older we get, the harder it is to get those dopamine hits, those dopamine highs. But porn is a very, very effective way of getting it. So potentially, as you get older, it actually becomes even more, not more rewarding, but more enticing. Valerie, what do we know about the brain on this and ageing? Yeah, so I think most of the initial studies, people were concerned about more youths and adolescents, just because there was some concern that it might be affecting the kind of growing and developing brain. What we do know is it seems to affect actually the studies that we were running.

You know, people were between the ages of 18 to about into their mid-50s. And I suspect that it's related to more the anticipation and the expectation of these videos. So this is what other studies have also shown, sort of replicating what we've seen. And it's people working and putting an effort into doing this, but they're not necessarily actually liking it, right? So when you think about an addiction process, we actually start out with liking and enjoying and obtaining pleasure initially. But in fact, with this disorder, we've shown amongst others that you actually then move away from just liking it, you're actually just working for it. So this is kind of an underlying theory of addictions that might

apply to this. And does that then have, is there any link between dementia and what's been raised by our listener here? So there are specific forms of dementia that might be more likely to be associated with compulsive sexual behaviors. So especially things like frontotemporal dementia. And it has to do with disinhibition. So part of how you think about this is there's an accelerator you're putting on, so the urge and the drive. But it's also what you're able to kind of control your kind of top-down ability to put on the brakes. If you take off the brakes, then actually the accelerator ends up being, you have this mismatch, right? So in the context of dementia, yes, you do see sexual behaviours

that are related to this disinhibition and inability to kind of comprehend the consequences. Just if I can squeeze this other one in, there's another message that I think, Paula, someone would very much appreciate a response to or some thoughts on. Again, anonymous. I found out four years ago my husband had a porn addiction. We've been married seven years at this point. I'd been aware of something was odd. I came back from work early on a hunch, searched the house. I found a laptop hidden in the garage and confronted him that night.

Endless denials, endless lies. Eventually he said he'd been watching porn and had been his whole life and wouldn't do again. We both had counselling. Two years later, my son found him with another laptop he'd secretly bought. He then went to addiction counselling. Two months ago, I came home from work early and found him upstairs behaving bizarrely and another laptop which he'd hidden in my son's room. My problem is, yes, I hate the porn. It makes me feel physically sick. But the worst part is the lies. I don't trust him. I can never trust him again. It's affected my children who know about it. He's a good man otherwise and a good husband, a liar and a porn addict I have no idea what to do

Paula absolutely we run a lot of support groups for partners at the Laurel Centre which is another organisation I work for and at the Laurel Centre we see people partners of all sorts of different kinds of behaviour so yeah pornography sex workers massage, a whole range of different things. And the common denominator for all of them is the deceit that really, really hurts. They may be disgusted. They may be, you know, really dislike the sexual behaviours, but it's the deceit. And so many of us believe we're a good judge of character. We believe what's going on in our own home. We think we understand our environment and actually to find out that somebody you are perhaps closer to than anybody else in your

in your life is actually leading double life yes is is hugely hugely damaging and i think just hearing from other partners and support groups is so important just to break through that sense of isolation that so many partners feel. We will have to leave it there. Dr Paula Hall, Professor Valerie Voone, thank you to you. I have to say, many messages also just came in right at the beginning to listening to Dame Laura Kenny, our most decorated female Olympian, talking about her decision to retire.

Refreshing to hear Laura Kenny with a young family admitting it's not possible to have everything. She managed it, fronted it as a success, but now presents a more honest view. It's a bit of a myth. Women can have it all. It also feels that it's politically incorrect to say so. And others say how refreshing her candor was. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm India Rackerson, and I want to tell you a story. It's the story of you. In our series, Child, from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to be exploring how a fetus develops and is influenced by the world from the very get-go.

Then, in the middle of the series, we take a deep look at the mechanics and politics of birth, turning a light on our struggling maternity services and exploring how the impact of birth on a mother affects us all. Then we're going to look at the incredible feat of human growth and learning in the first 12 months of life. Whatever shape the journey takes, this is a story that helps us know our world. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.