Woman's Hour - Olympic medallist Emily Campbell, Sexsomnia and the CPS, Beryl Cook play

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

Fresh from the Paris Olympic Games, the Team GB weightlifter Emily Campbell joins Jessica Creighton on the programme. Best known for her no-nonsense attitude, fabulous hair and of course, lifting extremely heavy weights, she joins Jessica to discuss adding bronze to her silver medal from Tokyo. A Glasgow parents group is taking legal action against the city council over planned education cuts. It is calling on the council to halt implementation of reductions to teacher numbers and a mentoring scheme. The Glasgow City Parents Group says the council failed to carry out an equality impact assessment. The group's chair Leanne McGuire joins Jessica to discuss. In 2020, Jade Blue McCrossen-Nethercott had the case against her alleged rapist dropped by the CPS. They said that the defence had suggested she suffered from ‘sexsomnia’, where a person performs sexual acts in their sleep. Jade Blue put in a Victim’s Right to Review and received an apology from the CPS for dropping the case, which cannot be re-opened. Jade Blue then sued the CPS – and has now received £35,000 in compensation for damages. Jade joins Jessica to tell her how it feels to have that compensation.Fame found artist Beryl Cook in the 1970s through her colourful, humorous depictions of everyday people. Actress and artist Kara Wilson has always been a fan and wanted to uncover the person behind the art with her play about Beryl, now playing at the Edinburgh Fringe. At the same time, she’s living with her daughter comedian Nina Conti, who also has a show and film on at the Fringe. They both join Jessica to discuss their individual projects and what it’s like living together again.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Really good to be back with you here on Woman's Hour. Now, it might be four days since the Paris Olympics ended, but we're still very much feeling games fever here. And we'll be celebrating with one of the most popular members of Team GB after her medal in Paris. I'll give you a clue.

She has one of the biggest smiles in sport and picks up some seriously heavy weights. Well, that was two clues, wasn't it? You might have seen her competing. And if so, you would have seen her celebration when her bronze medal was confirmed. It was a cartwheel. It was a great moment. One of my personal highlights.

Maybe you've done something similar when you've had something to celebrate, when you've had some good news, I should say, or reached a special milestone. How have you chosen to mark the occasion? What's been your celebration? It might not be something as energetic as a cartwheel, of course. Maybe you did a little dance, punched the air. Maybe you made your favourite meal, had a glass of something nice let me know text in on 84844 remember that text will be charged at your standard message rate you can whatsapp me as well on 03700100444

on social media we're at bbc woman's Hour you can email us through our website as well and some of you might know that I played a lot of football when I was younger and I was fortunate enough to score a few goals in my time

in my cup final I remember once scoring a really late winning goal and immediately just overcome with emotion I don't know

where my mind went but I went wild I was running around arms in the air, flailing everywhere, and eventually pulled my football shirt up over my head. Absolutely lost control. So basically running around, not being able to see where I was going, showing far too much flesh. But I don't know what happened in that moment. You're just celebrating. And that's what I chose to do in that moment. But let me know your celebration moments. Get in touch, text, WhatsApp, social media and email.

Now, I'll also be joined this morning by the actor Cara Wilson to discuss her play at the Edinburgh Fringe, which celebrates the work of artist Beryl Cook. And I'll speak about keeping it in the family because I'll be talking to her daughter, the comedian Nina Conti as well. She'll be joining us. She's also working at The Fringe, making her debut as a film director. We'll also have an exclusive interview with a woman who received damages

from the Crown Prosecution Service after they admitted to wrongly dropping her legal case when she was allegedly raped. All of that to come. But first, I did promise you a very special guest. That's because earlier this week, Nuala asked who your favourite female Olympian was at the Paris Games. Now, lots of you told us how much you enjoyed watching trampoline athlete Bryony Page and the BMX rider Bethany Shriever. But there was one woman who you loved watching even more. And that was, of course, Team GB weightlifter Emily Campbell.

Not only were you impressed by her incredible strength, but also her infectious personality. And of course, her colourful hair. Emily won a bronze medal at the Games, adding to the silver that she won at the last Olympics, she lifted a total of, get this, 288 kilograms, a personal best for her, made up of 126 kilograms in the snatch event and 162 kilograms in the clean and jerk. Emily, that is absolutely incredible. Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. How are you doing? I'm doing great. And it's so good to woman's hour thank you so much for having me how you doing i'm doing great and it's so good to be sitting across from you that trademark smile you look great you

sound great can we just get to that weight because 288 kilograms so i look this up it's like the size of maybe a baby grand piano wow or a couple of those us style American fridge freezers. Oh yeah, the super big fridge freezers. Lifted above your head. Oh, it's pretty cool when you say it like that, isn't it? Pretty cool she says. So matter of factly. That is an incredible weight.

Yeah, no, definitely. And it's really funny because it's like everyday life to me that they just go to the gym and lift heavy stuff. And then when people like compare it to things like that, you're like, oh yeah, it's kind of heavy of heavy wow can we talk about the cartwheel the celebration I mean I'm not convinced that Simone Biles would see that and be quivering and thinking I've got some competition but it was still a great cartwheel no definitely I think the term for it is there's room for improvement um but no it's um we we have a good time in training we like you know it's very intense

a lot of the time and we try and have a lot of fun and um i was messing about one day in training and my coach was like that has got to be the worst cartwheel i've ever seen in my life and he was like you need to do that as a celebration one day and he asked me to do after the commonwealth games and i totally forgot i got like a bit like you i was like engrossed in the moment just enjoying it and you forget everything and all the plans go out the window but then this time I just remembered and I was like I think it's time to do the cartwheel so I did it so now he's happy and I got a really cool work cool photo as well but yeah British Gymnastics wherever you are you know I'm ready for LA four years of training you don't need it that's it that's it maybe I will be you know giving Simone Baselman for money tell me about this bronze medal how proud are you it was a really stacked field a really tough medal

to to just for you to get on the podium with such incredible athletes the Chinese athlete as well who won gold South Korean athlete that won silver how do you feel now that you've had a few days to reflect on this all yeah yeah it's been really overwhelming to be fair because it has been it's been a difficult road to these games like it wasn't very straightforward for me like I had a coach change I had lots of injuries I had loads of things and you know you do get to a point sometimes when you sit there and think am I going to even be able to get on the start line never mind be able to contest for a medal really was that up in the air was it yeah it was you it was, you know, it was pretty difficult for me.

Like 2023, I had to pull out of the World Championships. I didn't really have any international performances at all. And then in 2024, I managed to retain my European title, but it wasn't a performance that I was proud of. You know, it was great. And, you know, I was very, very thankful to be able to have another European title. But at the same time, I was like,

this performance is not going to do me anything at the Olympics. Like I really have to, you know, pull it out the bag so yeah it was uh to even be there I was you know as ecstatic but then obviously me being the very competitive person that I am I was like you know you've come this far we've got to finish the job now so to finally get you know another medal and obviously you know people keep saying to me oh my god you're a double Olympic medalist and like to say that out loud in words is pretty surreal you know what i mean yeah it's incredible like honestly it is because you know you see every single athlete that gets on that gets on that stage gets on that track gets on wherever they're doing they've all trained so

so hard to be there and not everybody gets rewarded with the amount of work that they put in you know and we get back and you know everyone's focused on medals and stuff and whatever. But actually, you know, it's been a journey for absolutely everyone to get there. So obviously to be rewarded for your hard work and be able to bring back another medal and especially to shine another spotlight on British weightlifting as well. You know, we're all working really, really hard. I was the sole representation of great British weightlifters at the Games as well. So it was solely on my shoulders to, you know, bring back something positive for our sport.

And I'm just so glad that I was able to do it. And do it extremely, extremely well. Now I mentioned the weight that you lifted. Is it true that you don't know what weight you're going to lift when you get onto that platform to perform the actual lift. Yeah, a lot of the time I haven't got a clue. So your coaches decide for you? Yeah, so you have a bit of a ballpark

because you've warmed up in the back so you kind of know what weights you do in the back and you kind of know where you are. But yeah, they know exactly what everybody else has lifted. They know what you need, obviously, to place you, etc. So they make all the decisions. So yeah, I didn't have a clue at all. And even that last lift,

like I knew it was pretty heavy. I knew I needed it for silver. So you didn't know it was for a medal? So I knew, I didn't know the first one was for a medal at all. Wow. I just knew that the first one is, like your first lift is so important

because that sets the pace for the rest of the competition. So I knew, you know, you need to get this first clean and jerky because then you've got a total on the board and then you've got room to move. You miss this and then you're playing catch up. And obviously I knew the you know, you need to get this first clean and jerky because then you've got a total on the board and then you've got room to move. You miss this and then you're playing catch up. And obviously I knew the girls were so close and it wasn't going to make it easy for me.

So in my head, I was just like, I just need to nail this. And then it was kind of like, I only knew that then I secured a medal on the final lift because my coach said to me, you nail this, we get a silver. And I was like, oh, I've already got a medal. And then I tried to like wipe that out of my brain. So I was like, right, no, wipe that out of your brain. Like you need to concentrate on this. So yeah, but I, you know, I trust them guys with all my life because, you know, they've coached me my whole career.

They know exactly what they're doing. They work really, really hard. I've put them in some really sticky situations before in championships and they've always managed to come out good and pull for me. So, you know, I just have to have that faith that they have in me and just go out there and execute the lift. Yeah, absolutely incredible. I find it absolutely remarkable that you're not exactly sure of what you're lifting.

It's incredible. Tell us about the different types of lift, though, because you've got the snatch. Yeah. And then you've got the clean and jerk. And it's the total of those two lifts that make your total, which determines the medal. Correct. Yeah. So you always snatch first and that tends to be the lighter lift of the two that you do so snatch is the wide grip that you take straight from the floor and put straight above your head and stand up um so that one is the hardest and there is just

no room for error and i'm not a massive fan of snatch but actually this championships i snatched the best i've ever snatched in my whole career um yeah my we call the snatches were snatching that's what we were saying because literally we i knew that if i got a good snatch in i would have a very good chance of getting a meddling because cleaning jerk is a stronger one for me so i built a makeup and then you go on to the cleaning jerk so there's always a 10 minute break in between you reset and then the clean is where you clean it onto the chest stand up and then jerk above the head so there's three different styles of jerks that you can do you can do squat jerk, which means you bend your legs and go back down with the weight above your

head. You can do a power jerk, which is just splitting the feet either side. And then you do the split jerk, which is what you saw me do, which is where you split the feet back and forward. So yeah, not many people do the squat jerk. That's a very Chinese move. You have to be extremely strong to do that. But you know, there choice there to um do which whichever one you prefer wow it's very technical it's not just lifting heavy things up there's a there's an art form isn't there it's an art form to it um so tell us how you got into this because i think it happened by accident you were actually competing in shot and hammer is that right and uh randomly one day after a suggestion from a coach started weightlifting yeah they just basically

suggested that if I did the weightlifting movements it would make me stronger for the shot and I would throw the shot further so I was like what's the worst that can happen I'll give it a go started with a coach up at my old university in Leeds and yeah just kind of fell in love with the sport and then he kind of convinced me was like I know you didn't want to compete but you know you just get a membership and get a suit and you can do a comp if you hate it you never have to do it again and I just absolutely fell in love with it like I loved the complexity of it like I loved one day that you went in and it was going really well and you felt like you was making progress and then the next day you look like you've never done it in your life and it used to frustrate me you still want to go yeah so humbling like you

know you're I was a decent level at a shop but I used to go to qualify for national championships I went to small nation internationals and I thought you know this can't be that hard no weightlifting humbled the hell out of me and I really had to like go back to basics and you know really work on my technique and you know you can be as strong as you want but if the techniques aren't right it will really you know disadvantage you so yeah I just loved the journey of trying to get better and before you know it you're yeah I just love the journey of trying to get better and before you know it you're stuck in like the hole of keep going back and getting better and better and better and then yeah qualified for Commonwealth Games within 18 months of starting weightlifting and I won bronze in Gold Coast in 2018 and then that's kind of what

sparked me to be like okay I'm going to take this seriously now and I'm going to really give it a good shot. And yeah, and the rest is history. Wow. Sounds like you've become obsessed with it, addicted to it. And a lot of elite athletes have to do that, I suppose, to get to the very top. Now, I mentioned earlier about our listeners really just feeling that they could relate to you. They love the fact that you were so vocal

about positive body image. And I know that's been something that you've spoken out a lot about. Why is it that you want to focus on what your body can do rather than what your body looks like? Because I just think this Olympics has definitely proved how different we all are and how amazing things that we all do as women. I mean, and men as well. You know, we're not forgetting about men but women in particular we are incredible creatures no matter what we look like or what no matter how we are the things that we can achieve and things that we can do and I think that those are things that can be celebrated I feel like in the past and still now sometimes

you know it's always focused on how we look or how we dress or what we do and actually it's not about the things that we achieve and the things that you know the impacts we have on people and you know there's women in this world that have such incredible impacts on the world and sometimes it's always overshadowed by how they look and I just don't think that men get the same criticism as what women do you know for example I'm in the super heavyweight class so it means that I can weigh anything over so for the Olympics it was 81 kilos and normally it's 87 kilos so anything above that you fit into that class so you could be you know 100 kilos you could be 150 kilos and we get a lot of criticism about the fact that we're unhealthy and we we don't look great but

then the men they have a super heavyweight class and they're exactly the same as us but they're champion for being strong and powerful and inspiring and if we was going to compare they were exactly the same as us and I just find that really frustrating and it just disencourages women from being able to do what they want to do and I feel like we're in an era now where women are starting to prove that we really can do whatever we want to do and sometimes we do it a lot better so you know i just think that you know there was times where i realized that you know all people quite interested in what i'm saying so you know what i'm going to try and say the things that i feel like matters and and just personal experience as well like with with gym kit and you know being in spaces and you know still i still as a woman

can't walk into a shop now really and buy clothes you know I have to order online because the sizes aren't big enough for me so it's like when you have those experiences yourself and you experience you think well how many more people are going through this and the more I spoke to people and the more I spoke out about people the more people I had coming to me well I have this problem and I really wanted to start going to the gym but you know all the gym outfits are really horrible I can't find anything to fit me. And I'm like, we're trying to encourage people to be healthier and to be more active and to be out there. But we can't even get a great gym kit to fit us to start off with. So how do you expect if you want people to be healthier and lose weight? How do you even start if you can't put a nice outfit on to even go and go and do that?

So I realised that it was actually a bigger problem than I thought it was. And then I thought, well, if I've got a platform to be able to speak about it, then I'm going to speak about it. And you mentioned your weight there. And I know you've spoken about this publicly before, but when you started weightlifting, you were a certain weight and you've had to increase your weight, haven't you? Over the last eight, nine years to be able to perform on the level that you want to perform at. Has that been a difficult process or was it for you? I'm just going to do what i need to do to be at the elite level yeah i think in the beginning it was a difficult because i figured there was like all these pressures to be like you know oh you know is that healthy should you be doing that should you be doing that and just so people

aware it's like a 20 to 30 kilogram weight increase yeah i was i was around 98 kilos when i first started weightlifting and i sit now around 130 to 135 kilos so yeah it's been a massive increase you know that's two three close size difference you know i mean so it has been very different but then when i realized what my body was able to do when i put the weight on when i started actually getting putting the weight on for me was healthier like i was actually eating properly i was fueling myself properly i was sleeping properly i was coming into the gym and then all of a sudden weights that I was struggling with are a lot easier to lift and then I'm putting more on and then I'm thinking hold on a minute I've gone from someone who's dreaming about being on a world stage to actually

being to be able to compete on a world stage and then for me it was a no-brainer it was like you know this is what I need to do to perform my sport effectively and that's what I have to do and you know I eat very well like I eat very good meals like you know you don't just you know it took me a very long period it took me maybe five or six years to be able to put this weight on it didn't just happen like overnight but it is it's about like you know I work with a nutritionist she's absolutely fantastic Sinead and you know she sets me a plan and you know it's about my love for cooking has come back as well because being able to like get creative with foods and all these

different things so actually it's been a really positive thing and and like I said you know I always say this is a woman your body's going to change throughout your life right age whatever and it's about learning to love every single part of you in different stages of your life because it's never, ever going to be the same. Now, as much as you stress the importance of the functionality of your body, your aesthetic is always. Emily, it's fabulous, isn't it? Slick makeup when you're on that platform about to lift. Your trademark hair in buns intricately designed for this last last olympics with the olympic rings weaved into the back of your head it was absolutely fantastic why is it so important that you look

a certain way when you're lifting i just think i'm always in that aesthetic of um look good lift good okay um and you will find that a lot with a lot of the uh the weightlifting females we're lucky we don't have any water splashing at us we don't have to wear a helmet we don't have any of those things so actually we can have really nice hair and really nice makeup and there's nothing more empowering than seeing a beautiful girl with loads of weight above her head you know and you'll see a lot of the south american girls they wear amazing head wraps that match their suits and they'll do nice eye makeup as well and i think it's kind of evolved throughout the years like more and more girls in weightlifting have gone you know what I can still be my feminine self and still lift amazing weights um so I think it's been really encouraging for all

of us to like see that we're starting this movement and and you know obviously the track and field girls they are like absolute glamour aren't they you know our girls are beautiful and they always look beautiful on the track and I think that you know we're trying to kind of do we're inspired by them and kind of do the same thing and i just yeah i just think it's really important to just be who you are like if you don't want to wear makeup and you just want to slick your hair back and you just want to put it in a bun and you want to get on with business admire that too you know i mean but then if you want to wear a full face of makeup and you want to put your lip gloss on and you want to do that then do that as well and i just think it's about you know showing women that we have choices like you can

do what makes you feel confident and what makes you feel empowered and it doesn't matter what other people think now you haven't spent all that long in the sport but already achieved some fantastic things European titles a Commonwealth Games world medals, a double Olympic medalist. You're going on holiday now. Are you going to have some rest? What's next? Yes, no, I absolutely am. Yeah, I'm going away with my friend next week. We're going to have a few days away in Jamaica. So I'm really looking forward to that. Which is a country of your heritage. Absolutely. Yeah. So it'd be nice to go back to the land and yeah, enjoy and celebrate with some good good food i'm very much looking forward to the food um yeah and enjoy myself and then yeah get back kind of have a discussion with the team

regroup and we'll see what's next la 2028 am i am i getting ahead of myself i'll never say never okay okay um we've had a message and we've had loads of messages but one message in particular i want to read out from uh someone who's listening called Michelle. She says, I live in Nottingham. We are rightly so proud to claim Emily Campbell as one of ours. Tell her there's always the kettle on at my house for her. Oh, thank you very much. I'm very proud to be from Nottingham. I'm very proud of the people in Nottingham and I'm very, very proud to keep representing us. And you've been representing so, so well. Congratulations on your bronze medal and the silver from the last Olympics. Emily Campbell, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for coming on to Women's Hour.

Thank you, Jess. Thank you. Now, it's A-level results day in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. But over in Scotland, results day has already been and gone and schools across the country are set to go back this week. In Glasgow, a parents group has begun legal action over the city council's plan to cut 450 teachers over the next three years. The Glasgow City Parents Group is calling on the council to halt the implementation of those cuts. Leanne Maguire is the group's chair and she joins me now. Good morning Leanne. Good morning Jess. Just tell us what your concerns are then. Yeah so I mean 450 it's a big number and we're definitely going to feel it in Glasgow and so a

good example of that is in this first year we're going to lose 100 well we've lost 172 teaching posts and that will mean 45 of our primary schools will only have the head teacher out of class so there will be no one else to cover any sickness if there's multiple incidents within the school and that's just one example of how these drastic cuts are going to impact our schools. So what have the teachers or I our schools. So what have the teachers or I should say the parents what have the parents been telling you I know you've been speaking to a few. Yeah so we've been getting messages in for months now obviously we've been campaigning around this for about six months and the stories that we're getting from parent

councils are concerns that they're not going to have small group work in the school so if there are some kids that need additional support they're maybe pulled out into a nurture group that won't be able to happen and school trips may not be able to happen because there won't be no staff to support that so it's all this kind of additionality that schools put on top of everyday teaching the staff are now just stripped right down to the bone so that's just not going to be feasible and then the impact on the teachers will be they'll possibly burn out i mean we have we've been working in partnership with all the teaching unions in scotland so we're all on the same page around this they are actually

moving to ballot on strike action. So in Scotland, our kids are going to go into another year of school disruption. We have already experienced that for the past four years with strikes and pandemics. But I want to make it clear as a group, we don't blame unions for moving to strike action this time round. It's totally understandable. And as far as we're concerned, the blame lands at the council

or Scottish government for not intervening. And you mentioned that some of the children will obviously feel the consequences of this decision. But in particular, children with additional support needs will be impacted as well, won't they? Yes, some of our most vulnerable children are going to be impacted the most

and that's partly why we are moving to the legal challenge because an equality impact assessment has not been completed on these decisions at all and that is part of the council's public sector responsibility. And so how can you make these decisions without fully knowing how it's going to impact particularly some of our most vulnerable pupils? Yeah, so you're talking there about the equality impact assessment, which the Glasgow City Council told us that they have already

published. A spokeswoman told us that a scoping equality impact assessment was published at the time of the council's budget in February this year and that the working equality document is available on their website. So they're saying that they've already done that. Now you're taking legal action but what do you hope to achieve by that? So what she said is true, but that's not the full equality impact assessment. And the work that they're doing just now is after making the decisions, not before making the decisions. So I want to make that really clear that that's why we're moving forward. We've obviously consulted with lawyers around this. So we're not doing this on a whim.

We know we have a strong case. What we want to achieve from this, I mean, in an ideal world, we'd want to see the decisions reversed. That probably won't happen. But the point of this legal challenge is that councils and public bodies cannot make decisions

and impose poor decisions onto families that don't have the ability or the capacity to challenge that. They can't make decisions knowing that it will impact vulnerable groups without doing due process and we want to hold the council accountable for that and make sure that they stick to their public responsibilities. Now the Scottish government said it was offering local authorities £145.5 million, part of which was to protect teacher numbers. But in June, all 32 Scottish local authorities rejected this requirement to maintain teacher numbers. I suppose that just gives us a sense that everyone is facing difficult financial decisions right across Scotland at the moment?

Yeah, absolutely. But it also shows you the kind of difference in the stance there. So some councils are cutting numbers and Scottish Government want to retain them. And I know that there's conversations happening about both of those narratives where there's a possibility that councils may lose further funding if they don't retain their teacher numbers. We know that we live in a challenging financial landscape at the moment, absolutely do, but when it gets to the point where education is impacted so drastically that we're

not going to meet our children's needs in school, then that's when we have to stand up and do something about that. Education is what our group works in. So we can only speak on that kind of area of public policy. And so we can't just kind of sit back and let this happen to our children. Leanne, thank you for joining us on Women's Hour this morning. Leanne Maguire there speaking to me from Glasgow. We have contacted the Scottish Government for a statement, but we have not yet received one. We reached out to Glasgow City Council and they've said that we have received legal correspondence that our lawyers are now reviewing. It would be inappropriate for us to comment further at this. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the

most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Stage. Now to an interview that was on Woman's Hour a couple of years ago, but many of you may still remember it. In 2020, Jade Blue McCrossan-Nethercott had the case against a alleged rapist dropped by the Crown Prosecution Service, or CPS, because the defence team said that she could suffer from sexsomnia. Now, sexsomnia is defined as a sleep disorder that involves a person engaging in sexual activity whilst asleep. They may appear awake and not be aware of their actions

or have any memory of that sexual activity whatsoever. Well, over the last decade or so, there's been a marked increase in sexsomnia being used as a defence in rape trials, with defendants alleging that they suffer from sexsomnia and so are unaware of their actions. An investigation by The Observer newspaper suggested that of these cases where sexsomnia is used as a defence,

60% ended in a not guilty verdict. For my next guest, Jade Blue, her case was slightly unusual in that she, as the alleged victim, was suggested as having the condition. She spoke to Woman's Hour back in 2020 and told Emma Barnett what happened. A few of us went back to a friend's house. A few people carried on drinking. I had a small glass of wine and decided that was kind of enough, kind of hit a bit of a kind of tired wall as such.

So I opted to go to sleep. I've always kind of laughed and joked that I'm able to kind of sleep anywhere really and fell asleep in the living room while people were still drinking smoking and listening to a bit of like music. I then woke up in the morning about five o'clock to having my trousers off, my underwear off, my bra unpinged at the back and my necklace broken and I just felt like incredibly violated. I felt as if something had penetrated me but I had no clue what and I turned around and there was another person on the safer. Two years later the CPS decided to charge the man in question with rape. He had pleaded not guilty, a trial was set. Two weeks before the trial was due to start you were asked to attend a meeting

with the Crown Prosecution Service. The case didn't go ahead. It was dropped. What do you think of the reason for dropping it? Were you even aware of sexsomnia? To me, it was complete nonsense. I didn't even know sexsomnia existed. So I ended up sourcing a private sleep specialist and did an at-home study. And? I have like some mild disposition but I think like most of the public would a bit of like snoring mild sleep apnea and any kind of remote history of sleepwalking or sleep talking as a child would be enough for them to potentially not rule it out but it's always a mere possibility never really affirmative, which is even more frustrating, to be honest. And that was Jade Blue talking to Emma Barnett back in 2022. Well, after her case was dropped, Jade Blue submitted a victim's right to review. A chief Crown prosecutor reviewed the

evidence and concluded that had the case gone to trial, the jury would have been more likely to reach a guilty verdict than not. The CPS apologised to Jade, but she still felt that that wasn't enough. So she sued the CPS for damages. And now, in an exclusive update to this story, we can tell you that Jade Blue has been awarded £35,000 in damages by the CPS. And I spoke to Jade Blue a little earlier and asked her how she was feeling about the compensation. I mean it's a it's a big triumph I would say it's been a long time coming and a real battle to get to this kind of part in my justice journey essentially but I am feeling a sense of triumph relief there's a line in the sand now I feel like some justice has kind of been served in in some form not how I'd originally anticipated um but it certainly feels that this is a positive

outcome and I'm really pleased that I've managed to hold the CPS accountable essentially for their failure to prosecute my rapist um so it does feel like a huge win but not just for my case I think it's a huge win for victims everywhere that we can hold the CPS accountable for their failures so really holding on to that positive positive outcome there. So you do feel like it's a positive you said you feel like it's a triumph you feel like for you personally you're able to possibly draw a line under what's happened to you because you got this settlement? Yeah very much so so. I feel, I mean, the settlement is bittersweet, really. It's not really about the financial side for me.

It's more so holding the CPS accountable and ensuring that they don't make these mistakes again. Unfortunately, I'm still yet to receive my lessons learned letter from the CPS, something that I have been asking since June 21, when the Victims' Right to Review outcome came back and I have been promised by the CPS that they, as part of this litigation process, that they were going to provide that. So I'm still waiting for that and hopefully that will be soon and I feel for me that would be the final line in the sand once I've really understood as to

what things are being put in place, what policies and practices to avoid this happening again, because the damage is vast to victims that have to navigate that. It's just cruel and inhumane, really. It's important to note that sexsomnia in legal cases can be used in quite different ways, can't it? I mean, most commonly, it's used by alleged perpetrators who claim that they didn't know that they were actually engaging in sexual activity because they were asleep, which is quite different to your particular case where sexsomnia was used against you to argue that some of your actions whilst asleep could have been perceived as given consent. I think it's just important to make that distinction for our audience who might not know what sexsomnia actually is. Indeed, yes. I mean, it's definitely becoming an increased line of defence for perpetrators claiming they have it.

It's almost glorified on some defence solicitors' websites, essentially, which is incredibly concerning. I do believe that it is a legitimate disorder, but I just think it needs to be better for both expert witnesses and CPS in how they manage this kind of complex legalities around sleep disorders. They do have guidance, but I think it could probably be a bit better. And they do need to stick to their own guidance about robustly challenging these kind of lines of defence. But yeah, I do have concerns that this could be perhaps used against victims in the future which is probably for me the main driving force I was really keen to waive my anonymity and speak about this but I do feel it has to be kind of looked into to protect victims being told they have it when they don't perpetrators claiming they have it when they certainly don't with very little

evidence but also for genuine sufferers of sexsomnia to not be wrongly convicted. I think that's really important that for everyone across the board that this sleep disorder is taken seriously within the courts and I think that's a collaborative effort from both the CPS and the sleep specialists. There was an investigation by the Observer in April this year and it found that 80 cases over the past 30 years where defendants accused of rape, sexual assault or child sexual abuse claim to have been sleepwalking or suffering from sexsomnia at the time. And in the past decade, the Observer found at least 51 cases where people had used sexsomnia as a defence, eight in the past year alone. So clearly, there's an increase in people using this

as a defence. How does that make you feel? It makes me feel very uncomfortable. Yeah, it's just really concerning to see this increased use. It's something that just certainly needs to be addressed by the justice system as a whole. It's alarming. And you've actually spoken to people with this disorder that legitimately have it yes yeah um i had a really insightful um conversation with rich in the documentary um back in i mean it was came out in 2022 the documentary and yeah it was just really interesting to hear his perspective um and how he would like navigate that in a relationship he was so considerate and

really open with his partner always checking in and it's about having that open communication and ensuring that people are aware if you do have that disorder that you are you're aware that there's a risk associated with that um and it's important to know that rich wasn't involved in any legal case but he was suffering with that disorder yes yeah very much so um yeah not involved in any case but but that's it. Like the law needs to also protect people like him. Like that's, you never know. Like it's, yeah, it's just very concerning.

Talk to me about the process that you went through before you came to this settlement, because I think you started the process three years ago, back in 2021, by submitting your victim's right to review? Yes so my case was closed in October 2020 and it was about February 2021 where I put forward the victim's right to review where the CPS essentially had like an independent reviewer kind of independent of the the RASO unit the rape and sexual off Sexual Offences Unit, that was based in London, that made the decision to close my case.

This independent review came back and they essentially acknowledged that they made a mistake and that they do believe that he would have been found guilty if they'd taken it to trial, which they obviously couldn't do now, which is very bittersweet. But yeah, finding out that it was because of sexsomnia and this notion of sexsomnia in this nation of sexsomnia like from the instant I was like this is wrong this is this is a error in decision making

here I felt like this was a completely unjust decision very hasty and not very well thought out I was absolutely shell-shocked like it really that from that point that was like a real down downward spiral for me like I'd lost all faith in the system. I'd already had challenges with the police and just generally going through like the hefty process of trying to get a case to court for rape. But this was like a shell shock moment for me. It just completely destroyed me

and definitely like took me to the darkest points. I'd never considered any kind of like suicidal ideation from the incident of the rape but the actual interactions with the justice system, more so specifically the CPS, had very much like sent me to those points which was a really hard thing to come to terms with. Despite all that difficulty and everything that you've been through Jade, you're still voicing your story you're still fighting the system why are you doing that what was it that inspired you to keep going? I think every other victim inspired me to keep going this case against the CPS has never just been about my experience directly I think for me it was important to kind of shine a light that we

we can raise our voices, we can make ourselves heard, and we have every right to hold these agencies to account when they fail us. And I just hope that other people know that their voices are powerful. And I'm really hopeful that this kind of case and this outcome just shows that if something feels untoward or unjust, speak up, speak out about it. I think that's what's really important, because I think that's how we're going to get systemic change, is by the more voices collectively coming together and calling this out, essentially. And how aware do you think people are of their right to be able to fight institutions like

the CPS and use the right of review? I don't think it's commonly known. I think there's definitely work to be done in emphasising avenues of challenging these systems. You very much have to be your own fierce advocate navigating the justice system. I spent so much time educating myself, reading up, reaching out to charities, seeking support and advice. And it shouldn't be that difficult. There should be like a straightforward process and allowing victims to empower themselves to be able to navigate that and speak up if needed. It's something that definitely needs to be addressed. I mean, there has been a push on the Victims Code recently from the Ministry of Justice. But again, it can't just be a one-off push. It has to be a continuous conversation.

So I think that's really important. There was a recommendation by the former Victims Commissioner Dame Vera Baird in her 2022 report on the Victims Bill, where she said that victims of crimes should be given independent legal advice. Do you agree with that? Oh, very much so. I think that would have been a huge game changer for my process as well. I think it's really important to be able to have that kind of independent legal advice before the CPS make any hasty decisions. All this could be avoided and the trauma and the damage kind of inflicted could be avoided if there was somebody kind of

advocating in your corner, because at the end of the day, victims that are going through the justice process, they don't have any legal advice. it's you kind of tend to meet your cps prosecutor on the day and kind of hope for the best that they know your case in and out and they've got your best interest but i'd say from from what i've read and the victims i've spoken to that is far from far from reality unfortunately jade blue it's been seven years since the incident itself to today. And it sounds like you've been through so much. What impact has all of this had on you? Gosh, yes. It is nuts thinking how long it's been.

It's been such a long process. I was 24 when the incident happened. I'm 32 now and still kind of in some form or the other trying to seek justice. The impact has been vast, really, really challenging. From report to court, or nearly to court anyway, in my instance, that had its own issues, but the CPS side of things when they close a case, that was the most impactful. As I said before, from suicidal ideation to completely losing myself.

I was off work for six months I six months sorry I took a demotion um very much took a step back in my career there's things I'd wanted to achieve by now I was really keen to perhaps start a family by now and so kind of my life has been essentially put on pause and then onto the physical side of things as well during the CPS um process it was it was really challenging i must have put on about like 20 kilos really unhealthy coping mechanisms eating ridiculous amounts of food um binging alcohol consumption relying on medication it was it's a lot it takes you to the darkest points and only now do I feel like I've actually reclaimed some of myself back perhaps a more

fiercely I don't know independent woman I guess perhaps I think before I may have been like a naive girl trying to had a rose-tinted vision of the world thinking that the justice system had our best interests but now I feel very much those rose-tinted glasses were off and the stark reality of the state of our justice system has really I think changed my perception I think what I do struggle with a lot is decision making people in my life which have like decision making authority over any kind of anything from work to to general life like I feel like I have to second guess everything and it's a really hard burden to to carry constantly you just it's tiring like you have to educate yourself on everything really

kind of just ensure that everything is right and the eyes are eyes are dotted t's across and all that jazz so it does does take a lot from you it's a tiring uh state to be in constantly. Of course it is. We've been speaking a lot about the CPS and they have sent in this statement. A Crown Prosecution Service spokesman said, A settlement has been reached with Ms Macross and Nethercott, to whom we have apologised unreservedly, and we continue to wish her the very best going forward. We are committed to improving every aspect of how life-changing crimes like rape are dealt with and are working closely with police from an early stage to ensure we focus on the behaviour and actions of the suspect, not the victim. Now, Jade Blue, it sounds like you are moving into a more positive space in your life after everything that's happened. So

what's next? Surely you're owed a break, aren't you? Some rest? Perhaps so. It might take a couple of days. But yeah, I think I'm just going to continue advocating and campaigning as much as I can. I feel like there's a lot of work to be done within the justice system and these agencies do need to listen to victims' voices.

I think that's the only way that we're ever going to get any kind of systemic change and real reform. I'm going to continue calling for strengthening the victim's right to review process because essentially it wasn't fit for purpose in my case. And if there's mechanisms before that and perhaps escalation processes, perhaps it would have changed the outcome of my case and my perpetrator would have had his day in court. So that's something I feel quite strongly about. But also with the sexsomniaia defense as well I feel like a lot of guidance needs to be improved in regards to that so I do intend to continue using my voice in whatever form that may take um yeah I'm quite

excited for the future for the first time in a long time I feel like this is very much kind of drawing a line in the sand um it's quite weird because I often disassociate the fact that this is my own experience. I think it might be a coping mechanism to be able to navigate life generally. So yeah, I definitely will take some downtime and get creative with some ideas. I've got some interesting ideas to run with over the coming months about amplifying victims' voices. So yeah, I'm very excited for the next steps. That was Jade Blue, Macrossa Nethercote, speaking to me earlier.

And of course, if you've been affected by anything that you've heard in that interview, there are links to support and resources on our website. I just want to turn to a few of the messages that we've had coming in from you, our listeners, because I asked you at the beginning of the show about how you celebrated in your moments of success. Diane, good morning, Diane. She's been listening and she's messaged in to say,

I'm 62 years old. I left my job after 32 years. On my last day of work, I did a backflip along the corridor. I thought no one was there, but turned around to loud applause from the cleaner. That is absolutely fantastic.

I'd love to be able to backflip. Well done, Diane. Another message. Every time we get to the till at the supermarket, my husband throws his arms in the air and cheers when he swipes our club card through the machine

and we get a discount. It always makes the person on the till laugh. And just a message here coming in about the chat and we get a discount. It always makes the person on the till laugh. And just a message here coming in about the chat that we had with one of your favourite Olympians, Emily Campbell. They've said, I love the discussion about weightlifting and strong women's abilities. Let's hear it for fostering muscle strength, not dress size, as one of our health promotion goals. Do keep your messages coming in. But now let's talk about Beryl Cook.

The artist found fame in the 1970s with her colourful, humorous depictions of the everyday people that she encountered having fun. She died in 2008, but her work continues to be celebrated. And I'm joined now by the actor Cara Wilson, whose play about Beryl is on at the moment at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And her daughter, the comedian Nina Conti, also has a film playing at the Fringe and it marks her debut as a director. I want to talk to you both about living together

during the Fringe Festival. I do wonder how many people would do this voluntarily. I'm not sure I'd be able to handle it, but we'll get to that. But first, Cara, I'll talk to you about Beryl Cook. Tell us about her. I know that she didn't start painting properly until her 30s is that right 35 she was yes and um was more or less by accident she was trying to get her son john age 10 interested in painting or anything and so she challenged him to a competition to copy a little painting she'd found and then suddenly they all looked and found, oh my goodness, Mark and Paige. But she didn't paint again for a few years after that. But once she did start, she could not stop. And she painted like wild.

And I have to say that as you're talking about celebrations, this is my celebration of being 80. What do you do when you're 80? Take a show to the Fringe. Take a show. Why not? Just go wild. Why not?

I've always done shows about painters, and Farrell Cook fascinated me for a long time. But she has living relatives, and I thought, oh, maybe they won't like it, because I've only done dead artists before. So I got in touch. I managed to get in touch with her son, John. And he loved the idea.

And we worked together. So more or less, the play is made up of things she actually said. She was a very shy, private woman that nobody knew about. She was very reserved, wasn't she? Although she is widely known in the art world and she was, of course, awarded that OBE, she was shy. Is that right? She was shy.

She certainly wouldn't go in front of public. She wouldn't go to her private views. I tried to meet her years and years ago by going to a book signing of a book she had illustrated. But of course she wasn't there. She never went out. She was so shy. And so nobody really knew what she looked like.

So what would she make of this then? The fact that you've made this entire play about her and her life? Well, I think she would love it. I hope she would love it. Her son said, if I had been any more like her, he couldn't have dared to watch it. And he also said he was very grateful to me for allowing her to say in public things that she really believed

but was too shy to say. So tell us about the production then. You play Beryl Cook, in her studio I believe what is it that the audience sees they see me recreate uh for a camera she wouldn't do an interview for an audience so I can't speak to the audience she's speaking to a camera that the BBC have set up to record her at work and so she she copies for George, the BBC, who she keeps talking to. She copies a bit of Ladies' Night,

which is a wonderful painting of a stripper in a Soho pub. So I just, I paint for an hour, and at the end of the hour, the audience can buy that little study. Brilliant. And what reaction have you been getting oh well they love it they do laugh when I say and if you want to buy the painting but so far they're going they're really going I've sold them all nearly and they're all exactly the same the family said yes you can sell this study as long as you don't sign it peril.

Sign it with your own name and write in the back what it is. So there are many people going away with keepsakes. Now, I did mention, didn't I, about keeping it in the family. Let's bring in a fellow fringe performer, your daughter, Nina Conti. Good morning, Nina. Hello, how are you doing? I'm great. It's great to have you both on at the same time in the same house which we'll come to um you've been performing at the Fringe this year as uh as well Nina um it's been incredible I'm sure tell us who's there with you because you've got other family members as well

it's not just your mum running I'm running away I'm going to sit right next to the thing I think I lost you hello hello can you still hear me okay Nina I was asking about who else from the rest of your family is with you um because I believe it's not just your mum. Yeah, in the house, we've got my cat. We've got my partner, Shanoa, who also has a show on. My two sons and my son's girlfriend and his best friend are coming today. So it's a really busy house. It's a family affair then, isn't it? What's it been like having everyone there together,

living under the same roof, in the same space? Be honest. I'm a prima donna before I get ready for my show, so everyone has to avoid me at that point. I get in a real panic with my hair tongs and my ghost forget my monkey and run back in because I've got my keys so I'm I'm quite bad before I leave but we're kind of passing ships in the night I mean mum you go quite quietly off to your show very calmly on a bicycle I've got to say I think it's amazing what my mum's doing, aged 80, bringing the show to the fringe and going every day on a bicycle

with an easel, like a pallet full of paints and cycling through the meadows. It's really cool. Cara, that's extraordinary. Yes, I leave before everybody gets up. It's very quiet for me. My preparation hour is very nice. No, I had to be very careful.

I kept my pallet horizontal on my bike. It's working well. I haven to be very careful. I kept my palate horizontal on my bite. It's working well. I haven't fallen off yet. And how would you say everyone interacts with each other? I think we're good because we've been doing this for years. This is my first time for a long time to do a show. But for 20 years, I've been coming to the Fringe with Nina and my job has been something different it's been taking over when she gets to be prima donna at four o'clock and uh taking the boys out and giving them dinners and things like that so we've been here for 20 years it's not unusual not unusual but I suppose the roles have changed slightly Nina how does it feel now that grandma is also a fringe performer

I'm so happy for her to be and she's doing great and selling out and it's like yeah it's fantastic and being like i mean just being a great support all these years to me and the boys it's fantastic that granny gets a go that's her words not mine it's a really busy one this because not only has Nina got a show so we've got extra excitement this week because she's got her film coming out in the film festival so it's all happening at once yeah and how do you feel Nina about making your debut as a director it's wonderful it's a it's difficult to break into the film industry and so I sort of come through comedy to do that and it it's uh it was six years in the

making and uh it I'm really excited that it gets to play at the Edinburgh Film Festival which is kind of the home of my comedy all these years anyway so um yeah that's this weekend for screenings and I'm really excited to share it i bet you are are you expecting a positive audience uh reaction is there any way to judge i mean do you know how the audience are going to to react to your material it made me i think they oh it made my mom cry but it's but it's been, it's been funny. It's the main story is this woman who, who lives in a sort of mascot of a monkey.

She prefers to be a monkey than herself. And I, I mean, I relate to that because for years I've been expressing myself through a monkey puppet. And so if you can be hidden and androgynous and a complete, you know, a complete mystery, you get a much more liberated life, you know? And so it's kind of what happens in a love story when she falls in love with a derailed radio host played by Shanoa Allen, who also wrote it.

And I think people find it quite sort of dysfunctional and darkly funny. Hopefully it brings joy. I mean, that was my big thing. I want to bring joy because there's too much misery about these days. There's something, somewhere to go and just see like a fun road trip movie. But, Cara, you said it's made you cry. Tears of joy?

Joy, absolute joy. I mean, who would think a film about a woman in a monkey suit would be so wonderfully enlivening and entertaining? And my husband and I, Tom and I, sat there absolutely spellbound. There isn't a dull second in the film. And so at the end, it was just a relief. I wept. I wept in Nina's arms that is a beautiful reaction oh so beautiful it's very sweet I wept the first time I saw her do ventriloquism when she was about late 20s uh that was the same reaction there's nothing to do but cry from joy oh god this is

wonderful so it could be crying for another reason when you find out your kids are ventriloquist oh lord you've picked a hard road here no no it sounds like uh she is very proud uh ladies it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on woman's Hour this morning. That's Cara Wilson and Nina Conti, both Cara and Nina, performing at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival until the 25th of August. And they might even still be living together by the end of it. Hey, who knows? You can join me again tomorrow from 10 o'clock. Kyla Harris, co-creator and star of a new bbc comedy series we might regret this will be joining me and don't forget next week is listeners week

on this program your chance to get us to cover absolutely anything you wanted to hear from your favorite olympian emily campbell we brought her on so keep your ideas coming in i'll be back tomorrow and that's all for today's woman's Hour. Join us again next time. In December 1969, Muriel Mackay vanished from her London home. You have your wife. It will cost you a million pounds to get her back. Two men, toggling Rupert Murdoch's wife, Anna, had abducted Muriel by mistake. It was the first high-profile kidnapping in British history.

And the tabloid press were hooked. Was she alive? Was she dead? The police were baffled. It's the most hideous crime, kidnapping. It's worse than just a straight murder. And Muriel's family was thrown into a nightmare that continues to this day. I just want to find my mother's body.

I'm Jane McSorley, and this is Intrigue. Worse than murder. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.