Woman's Hour - Olympics boxing controversy, Lottie Tomlinson, Losing friends after a break-up, Golda Schultz

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

This evening at the Olympics, Algerian boxer Imane Khelif will fight for a gold medal in the women’s welterweight event. Tomorrow, Taiwan's Lin Yu-ting will compete for gold in the final of the women’s featherweight boxing. Both boxers have faced serious controversy over their eligibility to compete. To take us through what’s going on, Anita Rani speaks to the BBC’s Sport Editor, Dan Roan.Lottie Tomlinson rose to fame as the younger sister of One Direction’s Louis Tomlinson. At 16, she went on tour with the band as a make-up artist and a decade on, has become an entrepreneur. But Lottie’s mother and sister died within a few years of each other, when she was just 20-years-old. She joins Anita to talk about her experience of grief, which she’s written about her new memoir, Lucky Girl.When writer and counsellor Lucy Cavendish split up from her partner it took her a while to realise that the friends she had believed she shared with him were now his and his alone. She joins Anita, along with Rosie Wilby, comedian and author of the book The Breakup Monologues, to discuss why friendships can fracture in a break-up and the politics of who gets to keep the friends.The South African soprano Golda Schultz is one of the opera world’s most versatile and in-demand performers. After a music-filled childhood, she started training as a journalist but made the leap to become a professional singer and overcame severe stage fright. She talks to Anita about her appearance at this year’s Edinburgh International Festival in Mozart’s Cosi Fan Tutte.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Maryam Maruf Editor: Olivia Bolton Studio Manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Have you ever had a breakup or a divorce? My question to you all today is, what happened to your friends? Were you surprised, shocked even by how your friends reacted to you splitting up? Did he get them? Did she keep them? Did you decide to distance yourself

and how do you feel about it? Heartbroken or relieved? Looking back, were they even your friends anyway? The politics of a breakup. Hey, maybe you've got very adult mates and they were able to remain in touch with both parties and it not be an issue. Do you think women get a worse deal? Or is it the party that people feel the most sorry for because it's easier for them?

I'm very much looking forward to hearing your experiences on our discussion coming up. So get in touch in the usual way, the text text number 84844 you can email me via our website or you can drop me a whatsapp on 03700 100 444 also why don't we hear about the brilliant friends too the ones you weren't expecting to show up for you but they did also on the program lottie tomlinson influencer and younger sister of one directionsction's Louis Tomlinson. She's published a memoir. It's both a fairy tale and a heartbreaking tragedy. And she'll be telling me her story later.

And opera singer Golda Schultz is in Edinburgh to perform Cosi Fantuti, but not before she's had a chat with me. That's all coming up, including your messages. 84844 is the number to text once again. But first, to the Olympics and the controversy that's continued over the women's boxing. It's an event that's been overshadowed throughout by a row about the eligibility of two of the boxers, Algeria's Emman Khalif and Taiwan's Lin Yuting. Both Khalif and Yuting have reached And to clarify what we know and what we don't know, the BBC sports editor Dan Rowan joins us live from Paris. And I must explain, there is a bit of a delay on the line. Morning, Dan. Before we get into the controversy, let's put that to one side. Let's start by you telling us how these two athletes have been performing so far at the Olympics.

Of course. Sure. Hi, Anita. Well, as you've said, they've both reached the finals of their respective weight categories and both now have a shot at a gold medal. So they're doing very well. Khalif's campaign got off to a remarkable start when her first opponent, Angela Carini, withdrew after just 46 seconds of their bout. The Italian claiming that she'd never been hit so hard and had to preserve her life, an outcome which obviously fuelled this controversy. Khalif then recorded convincing wins, including in the semi-final, and now she will fight tonight at Roland Garros, the home of tennis in France, of course, against a Chinese opponent. She's obviously progressed further than she did at the last Olympics in Tokyo, where she was knocked out in the quarterfinals. Taiwan's Lin Yuting, meanwhile, she's also produced overwhelming wins on her way to her final. And I think the one-sided nature of

these contests, Anita, has only served to reinforce this frenzied debate that's developed around them and the view held by many that these fighters may have an unfair advantage and that allowing them to fight in the women's category is dangerous and wrong given that they were deemed ineligible a year ago for the world championships. Others however including the IOC themselves disagree and say they've every right to be here and to compete. Okay let's get into this then there's been a lot of speculation and controversy surrounding them both. Why? Well, because, as I just mentioned, they were disqualified from last year's World Championships by the International Boxing Association, the IBA, the then governing body of amateur boxing, because the IBA claims they both failed gender eligibility tests. Now, details of these tests and what exactly they found were originally very sketchy because this involves the confidential private information of the boxers after all. But that obviously led to speculation that elevated testosterone levels may have been detected.

And that's important because, as you'll know, testosterone is linked to physiological advantages. It's a hormone that increases muscle mass and strength, obviously very relevant to this particular sport. So how can they compete then if the IBA didn't allow them to? Why are they competing in the Olympics? Good question. Well, because the IBA are not in charge of the boxing here in Paris. The IOC, the International Olympic Committee, is.

And they have said that the two boxers can compete. Now, they say that these two fighters were registered women at birth, that they are women in their passports, and that that's good enough for them. We've got two boxers, the IOC president, Thomas Bach, said in a press conference, who were born as women, raised as women, their passports say they're women, and they've competed for many years as women. And that's a clear definition of a woman, he said. So why are the IOC in charge?

Well, last year, the IOC stripped the IBA of its status as the sports world governing body of amateur boxing because of concerns over how it was being run. It had suspended the IBA in 2019 because of governance issues and alleged corruption. Its president, Umar Kremlev, is seen as having close ties to the Kremlin. He's an acquaintance of Vladimir Putin. And under his leadership, the IBA has had Russian state-backed energy giant Gazprom among its chief sponsors. In 2022, it lifted a ban on Russian boxers, leading to a

boycott of the world championships by several nations.na sut mae'r IOC wedi dod i fod yn gyfrifol o'r bocsio yma ym Mharysg, fel eu bod yn ffaith yn Tokio 3 blynedd yn ôl. Ond, yn unig y bydd y ffwrdd gwleidyddol hwnnw rhwng y ddwy gyrff, mae'n amlwg yn hynod o gyfranogol bod ddwy bocsiau, a oedd yn cael eu hynod o ddweud eu bod yn ddim yn gyfrifol i'r gategoriad o ddynion, yn cael eu hymdrechu yn y gategoriad hwn yma ym Mharysg, yn enwedig mewn sborth fel bocsio, sy'n amlwg yn cyflawni rhai anoddau gyda'i gilydd, are now being allowed to fight in that category here in Paris, especially in a sport like boxing, which obviously carries with it certain dangers,

and especially given how well they've now done here. So given that there's so much speculation around this, what is it really about? I think at its heart, Anita, this has sparked renewed debate around what has become one of the most contentious issues that the IOC and sports generally have dealt with in recent times. That is over biological sex and how and whether they should or can balance the pursuit of inclusivity with fairness and safety in women's sports.

Now, there's no suggestion that these athletes are transgender, but that debate has indeed centred on transgender women athletes in the past, athletes who have gone through male puberty but who then want to compete in female competition. Several sports have updated their policies over this in recent years, moving from a requirement to suppress testosterone levels in those cases, for example, to then banning any transgender woman who's gone through male puberty from competing in elite female competition on the basis that research has shown that puberty leads to residual physiological advantages and thus the female category has to be protected with fairness and safety trumping

inclusion. Others of course feel very differently as I'm sure you'll have discussed on Women's Hour in the past. Some dispute the science on which this is based. Others, even if they accept that science, feel it's discriminatory and wrong to exclude people. The other realm on which this debate is centred is on DSD athletes or athletes with differences in sex development, which can mean that they have an elevated level of testosterone. DSD is a group of rare conditions whereby a person's hormones or genes or reproductive organs may be a mix of male and female characteristics. Now these chromosome abnormalities are rare but they have come into focus because of this story here in Paris. Now this has been a big deal in athletics

in recent years in particular in Rio in 2016 for example all three medalists in the women's 800m final were DSD athletes. The highest profile of those was South African gold medal winner Kasta Semenya. Now last year, World Athletics ruled that DSD athletes must have hormone suppressing treatment for six months before being eligible to compete in all female events. In order, they said, to protect the female category after data showed high testosterone levels provided an unfair advantage. It said that this was necessary and reasonable. Now, Semenya insists there was never any unfair advantage, that sports have never been fair, truly, because of genetics,

and that it was discriminatory and against her human rights, and she refused to undergo these treatments, and is still involved in legal battles with the governing body. But again, to be clear, these boxes are not transgender cases, no suggestion of that. Are they DSD cases? Possibly. It's being speculated that they might be. That's been fuelled by the IBA, which has referred to them both having XY chromosomes, and the IOC, who in a gaffe initially denied that this was a DSD case, but then had to retract that statement, saying that they'd meant to say it wasn't actually a transgender case.

But we just don't know in truth what exactly the test showed and because the boxes aren't revealing any more details. But I think, Anita, crucially, regardless of the lack of clarity, some people are of the view that they're effectively male, these boxes. Others insist they are women and point to the fact that because genetic variations can be so varied, it's impossible to establish that everyone with a Y chromosome is a male and everyone without one is a female. Amid all of that debate, what it has reminded, I think,

people is that the IOC, their policy is to effectively farm out decisions over gender eligibility policy to the respective sports. They made this decision some years ago to do that. And that their policy is to effectively accept that what is written on a passport and a birth certificate is key, rather than have the kind of policy that I've just mentioned about world athletics has. Now that they're having to organise the boxing competition, though, the IOC, that approach has come under renewed scrutiny. And so whether or not these fighters are DSD, and we don't know, for many this has become a test case, I think, now, for the IOC's ability and willingness to govern and protect the female category in sport.

We know that the International Boxing Agency, the IBA, held a press conference on Tuesday about the issue. What happened there? Well, I think in fairness, it led to more questions than answers, really. It was a somewhat chaotic press conference. I was there. It was an hour's delay. There were sound issues. The IBA president, Kremlin, appeared live from Russia. He went on a rant attacking the IOC president, Tom Spark. There were somewhat conflicting statements from members of the IBA. Kremlin said that tests had shown that boxers had high levels of testosterone. Without providing further details, the IBA's former chief doctor said that testosterone had not been tested for. But amid that confusion, there were some details that emerged too. The IBA said that two tests had been conducted on these fighters in 2022 and 23 that had been looked

at by accredited labs, that the results of these chromosome tests demonstrated that both were ineligible, they said, and genetically male. The president, Kremlin, branded Khalif and Lin both men. Further, it said that the IOC had been informed of these results a year ago but had done nothing. And it said that it was prevented from really any more about the test because the Algerian and Taiwanese Olympic committees had written to them ordering them not to do so. But I think it's really important here, Anita, to add that I think some of the confusion around this stems from this row

between the IBA and the IOC. The IOC has questioned the validity of these tests, saying that they were arbitrary and sudden, after the boxers had been allowed to fight for years, that it was done without due process. They've hinted at the IBA's complaints being part of a broader campaign aimed at undermining these Olympics, which of course Russia is banned from due to the war in Ukraine. The IOC says the IBA is discredited, it's compromised. The IBA, however, denies all this, saying that it's simply trying to protect women's sport. But this war of words obviously makes it harder

for those of us who are trying to cover it to know exactly what the truth is here. Yeah, and what about the two women at the heart of this, the athletes themselves? What have they said about the situation? Well, Khalif, they both find themselves in the middle of a global controversy with their genetic makeup and biological sex being scrutinized.

And it obviously is very, very difficult for those two individuals. Khalif has said that she wants people to refrain from bullying and online abuse because it can be very damaging. She said the ferrari was having huge effects and has called for restraint. I want to tell the entire world that I'm female, she said, and I'll remain a female. Farore was having huge effects and has called for restraint. I want to tell the entire world that I'm female, she said, and I'll remain a female. Algeria's Olympic Committee has supported her, of course, and have attacked what they called malicious, unethical abuse directed at her.

Lynn hasn't said as much. I've covered both of their fights, and I've spoken to both very briefly. And I've seen the scrutiny that both are under. But I think both are trying to focus on their fighting and their boxing. And of course, they now just won win away from gold in both cases. And what about the crowds at the matches? Has it changed the support the two boxers are getting? Yeah, I have detected a slight shift. I think at the very beginning, amid the initial storm,

both fighters, when they emerged, and I observed it at close quarters, there were boos and cheers from their respective national supporters. But I think as this has continued and the war of words between the IBA and the IOC has continued there's been growing sympathy for both of them for finding themselves in a situation such as this but equally of course it should be said there's sympathy for the fighters that they have to face given the fact that they were deemed ineligible just last year. And what do you think is going to happen with this row? Will there be any changes by the IOC? That's interesting. I mean, there's no doubt that this has created a huge impact.

It's overshadowed the boxing competition here. It's increased the scrutiny, not just on those fighters, but on the IOC itself. It's swept the scrutiny, not just on those fighters, but on the IOC itself. It's swept across social media. You've had very significant figures and voices wading in. Former President Donald Trump, for example, is among those. And in fact, the fighters themselves have faced protests from their opponents in some quarters. And so it has tarnished, I think, the boxing competition. And I think it has forced the IOC to sort of answer some pretty difficult questions. eu hynod o ran y cydweithrediadau. Felly mae wedi llenwi'r gynharach o'r gynharach o'r bocsio, ac mae wedi

gwneud i'r IOC ateb cwestiynau anodd. Yn mynd ymlaen, gallai fod cyrff newydd yn dod i'w gynnal ac mae'r hysbysiad ar gyfer sefydlu'r gynharach o'r bocsio wedi'i dynnu i ffwrdd o'r IOC. Rwy'n siŵr ei bod yn gobeithio bod hynny'n digwydd. Mae wedi dweud ei fod yn agored i gynlluniau pan fydd yn ymwneud â chriteriaid cyfranogol yn y that's the case. It has said that it's open to solutions when it comes to eligibility criteria in this area, but it maintains that it's very difficult and complex to do that. Others disagree with that, of course, and we'll come on to that in a second. But I think regardless, they're going to come under more and more pressure, especially if these two fighters win gold over the next two days, to do more research, first and foremost, and perhaps to bring back sex tests for all competitors. Now, the IOC says it doesn't want to do that.

It says that no one wants to do that, as it puts it. It's very much opposed to it. And it's warned against stigmatising the two fighters with sex screening. But, you know, campaigners believe the IOC is guilty of neglect here and that the overwhelming majority of women athletes, they say, are in favour of what they regard as a relatively simple swab test or cheek swab test. And they're calling now for mandatory sex testing at the next Olympics, including the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. But, you know, it has to be said that even within the scientific community, there is disagreement

about whether those kind of tests would really allow physiologists to reach a really firm conclusion on someone's sex and whatever advantage they may have. Because some scientists argue that to really be sure, you have to test for genetics and hormones and the body's reaction to those hormones, such as, obviously, testosterone. So this is the source of much debate. It's expensive to do. It requires expertise.

And I get the impression that the IOC are wary of doing it. But, of course, the obvious pushback against the IOC is, well, if World Athletics can do it and have been so firm in their beliefs that this is required, then why can't the IOC? But what's clear is that this controversy is not going away, certainly. And in the meantime, the two of them have to on the the two big fights that they've got coming up and going for gold Dan thank you so much for speaking to me Dan Rowan in Paris there and of course the BBC coverage of the Paris 2024 Olympic Games continues throughout today and across the weekend on TV on your radio and on BBC sounds and iPlayer. I asked you at the beginning of the programme

if you'd gone through a breakup or a divorce, what happened to your friends. I've had a couple of messages here said, we had a wide group of friends stemming mainly from my husband's time at university. I was close to some of the wives, one in particular. When we split, I lost the whole group. The woman I was close to made a conscious decision to align herself with my ex

and actually made the process even more painful for me. I have a wonderful group of girlfriends in my own right and a best friend who is just amazing and always there for me since we were at school so I consider myself very lucky and another one here says I got divorced. I was divorced over 30 years ago and a lot of our friends were couples. I decided I didn't want to lose their friendship and that Christmas invited them all to go out for a meal together. It was awkward at first but we have all remained close friends and many more meals out and even holidaying together it was the best thing I ever did. 84844. Now on to my next guest. Lottie Tomlinson rose to fame as the younger sister of One Direction's Louis Tomlinson. At 16 she went on tour with the band working working as a makeup artist,

and a decade on, at only 26, she's gone on to become an entrepreneur. But when Lottie was 18, her mother, Johanna, died of leukaemia. And three years later, her little sister, Felicity, Fiz, died of an accidental overdose. Lottie has written about her experience of grief in her new book, Lucky Girl. Morning, Lottie. Welcome to Woman's of grief in her new book Lucky Girl. Morning Lottie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have you. Why did you decide that you wanted to tell your story?

Why write about it? So when I was in the depth of my grief and tough times, a book like Lucky Girl would have been so helpful to me. So I wanted to write it as an encouraging story to people, you know, going through dark dark times not necessarily just grief you know everyone comes comes up on tough times in their life and I wanted to just share a positive story of how you can come through that and and still create a really nice life for yourself and not be defined by tragic things that happen in your life because I thought for a long time that you know my life would be defined by those tragic things and that I wouldn't be happy again so it I just wanted it to be an

encouraging story for people um I said at the beginning of the program I described your life as both a fairy tale and a tragedy and I know you've got 4.3 million followers on Instagram but some of our listeners may not know too much about you Lottie so I would want to just start by you telling us about your family because you've got seven brothers and sisters tell us a bit about growing up yeah so I mean I can just remember new babies coming into my life new siblings all the time I'm the second oldest and I remember we've got two sets of twins so we call them the big twins and the little twins and I remember when the big twins were born I think I was six and I was just so excited because

we're all baby mad we're all really maternal in my family I think that was put into us by my mum um so yeah it was just like a house full of love and and chaos but I loved growing up with a big family and we've all been the best support to each other through everything. And then it was in 2016 that you found out the news that your mum had been diagnosed with leukemia she was only 20 43 and eight months later she passed away and what how did that impact the family it must have just ruptured all of you yeah I think it was so difficult because she was the center of everything for us and she'd been you know everything to us growing up so when that gets taken away it becomes like a job of trying to

keep everything together you know the way she did So I think besides just the grief of losing your mum, it's also then, you know, figuring out how to keep the family together and how to make sure everyone is OK. And you were the eldest sister, so how did your role change after that? I think when she died, I went into a natural kind of motherly mode with all the younger siblings. And it was just an instinct really that I felt and I knew that now she was gone you know I was kind of the next best thing for them so I wanted to do everything I could to be there for them and I you know I love stepping into that role

obviously I wish I'd never had to because obviously we would always want mum to still be here. But it's given me a lot of purpose having that role, you know, as my sister's carer and trying to just look after them and guide them through life since she passed away. A lot of responsibility for an 18-year-old. Yeah, I think it definitely was. And I think looking back, that's probably set my path for a lot of things that I've done in my life you know having that early responsibility so young but I think also going on the tour so young

taught me so much you know as a 16 I'd just turned 16 when I started that tour so I feel like I'd already kind of started maturing and gaining a few life skills that you probably wouldn't usually gain at that age um so I feel like it all just kind of rolled into one and it was a lot of responsibility but I don't know I feel like it kind of molded me into who I am um you mentioned going on tour we should remind people that you are Louis Tomlinson's little sister he's seven years older than you and um how did your life change what was life like before he got Biquette was the Louis Tomlinson of One Direction and what was it like after well it's funny because he was always really into his music so seeing him singing and doing

music wasn't abnormal to us so it was kind of like he was moving on from just singing at home and in little bands that he was in at home to like doing it globally which which was amazing to see and we were all just so excited to be on the journey with him you know we were just a normal family from up north and then all of a sudden Doncaster let's put it out there she's a she's a Donny girl I'm proud absolutely so yeah it was crazy but we we were just so proud of him we were just so happy to be on that journey with him and people girls fans out on your in your front garden when you came home from school yeah I mean things changed pretty quickly it was like all of a sudden you know everyone at school wanted to know you wanted to know the situation

always people outside the house wanted to you know catch a look at him but yeah I feel like because it's been so long that's kind of all I remember and then you were given the opportunity because you're very into makeup to go on tour for work experience but then ended up doing the whole tour the world tour and this changed your life yeah so when I was 16 I didn't go into sixth form I didn't quite get the grades and I really wanted to go to sixth form and I think it was kind of for the wrong reasons you know you throughout school you look at the sixth formers as being like the oldest they get to wear their own stuff all your friends are going so I really really wanted to go so when I didn't

get in I was quite disappointed and upset but my mum said to me look she knew I wanted to do beauty she was like the best work experience you can get is going on the tour to assist the hair and makeup artist for a week and you know putting that on your CV it will open so many doors for you so I was adamant I was like no I can't do it I was really shy and I was like no no no I don't want to go she basically forced me on that tour and then obviously I got on so well with the hair and makeup artist Lou and I ended up on that tour for the next two years and we toured around the whole world amazing crazy that I've had that experience well great advice from your mum yeah she set me up and you know I can't I'm so grateful to her for that and then after she passed

away like you said you're only 18 and you were looking after your younger siblings and you sort of stepped into that maternal role. And your sister Felicity, who you lovingly call Fiz, you've said in the book that she processed the grief really differently to you and your other siblings. Can you tell us a bit about that? Yeah, so I think for us it was quite apparent that she was dealing with it differently to us you know and that that's okay you know everyone deals with grief differently so we never judged her for that but I think as the years went on we kind of became concerned at how there was a lack of emotion there and it kind of looked like she was suppressing her emotions quite a lot which obviously worried us and I think really that

in the end is why she ended up in such a dark place because by the time she did let that in it was just too painful for her. What was she like? She was amazing she was such a unique character she was so intelligent but so full of love like she would do anything for you. But I feel like she had such a high intelligence. I feel like sometimes it can set you aside a little bit because she almost had all this intelligence but didn't know what to do with it. So, yeah, she was just a unique character. And then you sadly lost Felicity as well.

Where were you when you found out? So I'd gone away actually to Bali um I'd only been there three days and obviously we all know how far away that is so to get the call whilst I was there was just heartbreaking and and so scary being so far away you know obviously the first thing I wanted to do was come home so I had to sit on that 18 hour flight you know we're just hearing that news so yeah it was really really hard um time for us and I think it was even harder knowing that you know we would we were a couple of years into the grief of my mum and I think we all knew how hard it had been to kind of get to the point we'd got to so it almost felt like going back to

square one and it was just like we were questioning how has this happened again I've been reading lots of things about you and one thing that struck me and you started this conversation talking about dealing with grief and how this book is for people who you want to help people who are going through maybe going through something similar and something that really struck me um really hit me hard actually was when you talked about being in a car and thinking about your sister and just having to scream yeah um I remember just someone kind of opening up the conversation to me of you know do I want to speak about anything do I want to talk about it I think it was quite fresh into that grief and all the emotions just came out of me in such a you know dramatic way and obviously

I think I think it was a different kind of grief with my sister because it was more of a shock you know with my mum of course we'd always kept that hope that she was gonna recover but I think naturally when someone's got cancer and they're really quite ill your your brain will naturally prepare for the worst whereas with Fizz we knew obviously she wasn't in a great place but we never you know we my mind never really went there you know that that would happen so I feel like I was dealing with like a lot of shock and I guess a bit of PTSD with you know that shock factor and the fact I was away in the flight like everything was I think all just came out of me in that moment when you know I was asked to open up about it and it can come out in the most

unexpected ways when you're least expecting it um you also talk about how when you moved to London in the book um that you couldn't you felt you couldn't really relate to a lot of other young women because of what you'd gone through but then you met your now fiance Lewis Burton and you said that you instantly related to each other as he'd recently experienced a tragic loss his former partner Caroline Flack sadly died of suicide did you share did your shared experience of grief impact your relationship? I think it's a similar situation as I've had with the book you know I want to help people with my experience and you know that that place that I was in when I first found out about you know my mum wasn't going to make it and you know when you're in that depth of grief and

and you know despair that feeling that I had in that moment was that I was never going to be okay you know I was never going to get through it I was never going to be happy again you know I was just thinking about how I would you know survive that grief let alone ever live a happy life so I think anyone that I kind of come across that's in that situation I always want to kind of share that that is possible so yeah it became you know me trying to just share that you know that is possible and you can be happy again and obviously then yeah we ended up together which yeah we were friends for a long time and then we ended up together and now we've got almost two kids so it's worked out amazing yeah I was gonna say you met Lewis and then more joy came your way because

your son Lucky was born in 2022. How was that experience becoming a mum but not having your mum around? It's bittersweet really because obviously I felt quite close to her in a way because she knew how much I wanted to be a mum and so being able to do that I felt like I was kind of and I knew how much being a mum meant to her as well so being in that position made me feel close to her. But then on the flip side, I obviously had that feeling of every little question that I had, obviously she wasn't there to answer. She was a midwife, wasn't she? Yeah, and that kind of made it worse because a lot of medical questions that I would have,

you know, she always kind of used to say to me that she would always deliver my baby when I had one. So it was really hard to come to terms with the fact that she wasn't there. I think it was like a new kind of level of the grief where you've got to kind of come to terms with it again, that they're not there for those special moments. And I guess that's probably one of the hardest parts about grief is that realisation that, you know, those big moments in your life, you're not going to have certain people there to experience them with you. And you've named your son Lucky. The title of the book is Lucky Girl. What does that word mean to you? I think it's just a representation of how I've tried to turn things around, you know, things that have happened in my life,

you know, turning the negatives into positives has been a big coping mechanism for me. And don't get me wrong, it's not an overnight thing. You know, if someone would have said to me at the start, look at the positives, I would have just thought that was crazy. There was no positives. And, you know, even if those positives are really small, that's what I've tried to hold on to and it's kind of given me you know a reason to get through everything and you know I've had my I had an amazing mum for 18 years some people don't get that you know ever that's you know that's just one example of a positive that I can take from you know that situation um so yeah it's just something that's kind of stuck through you

know my life and yeah I just feel lucky oh and it's a great name it's my mum's name as well lucky I can't believe that that's crazy yeah well okay it's um I've really enjoyed speaking to you thank you for uh taking the time out um I'm sure your book is going to help a lot of people I hope so thank you thank you uh Lucky Girl by Lottie Tomlinson is out now. And if you've been impacted by the things we've just been talking about, there's information and support on the BBC Action Line website. Lots of your messages coming in about losing friends or keeping friends during a divorce or a breakup.

Michelle says, I think that those who drop you were never really your friend anyway, so why would you want those people in your life? Another one here saying, when my long-term partner and I split, I made it clear to our friends that we should remain friends. How wrong I was. They pretty much ghosted me, but they are still friends with my ex and his new partner. I keep ideas, thoughts and opinions coming in.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, we still need your ideas for Listener Week, so please do keep them coming in the tours as well.

As you know, we like to cover all sorts of topics, from the serious to the fun and the quirky and the offbeat. To give you a bit of inspiration, listener Leslie got in touch with us a while back ahead of our Glastonbury programme because she wanted to tell us how she does the festival solo. It involves wearing a leotard, bright pink lipstick and parrot green hair. She was amazing. I was lucky enough to meet her in glasto back in june i have come with a group and no one can ever agree on what stage to go to what music to see to you come on your own you can please yourself do what you want and you meet so many people people talk to you on your on your own it's fantastic not everybody could relate to that though i think a lot of

people might be terrified nothing to be frightened about at all especially in this environment you just smile to the person next to you before you know you're exchanging numbers you're on facebook friends i've made so many friends over the years through coming to glastonbury and when we can we meet up every year just for a quick drink and maybe a little cheeky dance yeah you've got to have a cheeky dance i mean i think it's part of the rules of glastonbury you have to have a dance but what is it about this place that makes it so well suited particularly to a solo female traveler it's safe of the rules of Glastonbury, you have to have a dance. But what is it about this place that makes it so well suited, particularly to a solo female traveller?

It's safe. Of course, you have the registration now. You can be who you want to be. You can come and go as you please. There's kids everywhere. It's such a friendly place. You strike me as somebody who's quite confident and prepared to put yourself out there. Not every woman is like that. Stepping out and doing something solo it's quite a daunting task give us some advice how do you go about it if it's not naturally

something you'd do i think the first step is to have some faith in yourself if you do maybe start with a smaller festival glastonbury may be a bit overwhelming to come at first because it's so large maybe start with i also go to green, which is a very small little festival in the Welsh Hills. Also very family friendly. Maybe start small, but definitely start because you will not look back. I have never looked back and I would never, ever not do this. This is my summer holiday and I love it.

I'd rather this than a beach in Ibiza. What if I said you need to come with people? How would you feel? Not at all. I would not agree at all. No way. No way. That was the brilliant Woman's Hour listener, Leslie,

in our special live programme from Glastonbury. So whatever your story or idea is for Listener Week, please get in touch in the usual way, 84844, or on social media at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us via our website. Now when you get divorced or split up with a long-term partner as well as dealing with the emotional pain of the separation there are usually practical issues to untangle too. There may be legal wrangles like the question of the custody of the children or property and assets to divide

or the pets and so working out who gets to keep the friends might not be top of the list. When writer and counsellor Lucy Cavendish split from her partner, it took her a while to realise that the friends she had believed she shared with him were now his and his alone. She joins me, along with Rosie Wilby, comedian and author of the book The Break-Up Monologues and host of the podcast of the same name, to discuss why friendships can fracture in a breakup

and the politics of keeping friends. Lucy and Rosie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Lucy, I'm going to come to you first. Before your split with your partner, you were living in the countryside with your four children. What was your social life like? We were really, really sociable. We had a lot of friends.

I think, you know, our children were young. And so consequently, and I think everyone does this when their children are young, you all get together, you bond, you know, you go around to people's houses for dinner because you can take your kids, you have lunches, you go for walks,

all that stuff. It was highly, highly sociable. We were a very sociable couple and we had a lot of fun and it was great. We really enjoyed it. And then you did the thing of separating. How did people respond to the news? Well, I think this is very complicated for couples and in my job, I talk to a lot of couples about this is number one do you need to announce it but how do people respond with us I think a lot of people initially were very supportive and then all sorts of other stuff happens gossip happens I think people also got I think they got worried or I think they get worried about the single woman who's suddenly single so you go from being a couple to being single and And gradually over a period of time...

Why do they worry about the single woman? Oh, I think people worry about single women because I think lots of marriages, I'm talking very generally here, have little rocky ground and maybe not quite as stable as they'd like to be. And so a single woman is seen as a threat and that is not where I was at all.

So I noticed that people started, well sort of drifting away. And at first I didn't really notice it. I was like, well, you know, we were studying the children and doing all the stuff you do when you're separating. But I then noticed that my invites were drying up i wasn't being invited out and i think it's because you go from this territory of being a

couple which is a sort of tribe we're all couples together and suddenly you're single and people don't really know what what to do with you who do they sit you next to at a dinner party? What if their husbands start talking to you and kind of fancy you? And suddenly all the ground shifts in a way that I don't think you really expect because you're in the middle of whatever trauma you are not going through. You know, even if you want out of your relationship, it's still traumatic, especially I think if you're separating finances and where you live and children and you're not really aware of what's happening with your friendship group because that doesn't seem the top of your list until you

realize everyone's disappeared on you where have they gone where have they gone well they've gone into their own worlds but in my case between the two of you they disappeared from your life did they disappear from his as well no not really and I only worked that out when I drove past um a friend a mutual friend's house and realized there were lots of cars outside including his and this is no complaint against him there's no complaint against him and um sort of I I got out of my car and kind of crawled up the car and peeked through the window like a lunatic and saw everyone having this wonderful time and not me. Oh, Lucy.

Oh, yeah. No, I know. Don't worry. Why did you do it? Oh, why wouldn't you do it? No, it's true. Curious. Yeah, because also I'm nosy, right?

And I'm curious. That's what caps as a journalist are. And part of me couldn't kind of kind of couldn't really believe it you know part of me was like no surely that that's not true surely I'd be invited too and um and also I'm like I'm like that I wanted to know but wow sometimes you you shouldn't really know the things you think you want to know. Did you oh gosh so much to talk about here why do you think that they to know? Did you? Oh, gosh, so much to talk about here. Why do you think that they invited him and not you? Why did they choose him over you? I think partially because he's a lot

like more likable than I am in an initial way. I'm very, I'm a very direct, very honest person. And I do understand that sometimes I'm a little bit maybe too direct for people. And he was a lot more affable and a lot more sociable than me. And also people want male, single male company for all sorts of reasons. You know, he was much more sociable. And I think people have a lot of single female friends and they're like, find me a man, find me a man. And, you know, he was a single spare man.

I'm going to bring... Sorry, that's why I thought it happened. That's what you thought. Interesting. Let's bring Rosie in here. Now, Rosie you're you're self-described queen of breakups why oh well thank you for having me yes i do describe myself as the queen of breakups because i have this podcast and i've written a book after i got dumped by email many years ago. And I joked that I did feel better once I'd corrected her spelling. But of course, in reality, it's such a bewildering and painful experience. But I did find that after the dust had settled, it was this opportunity for reinvention and growth

and transformation. And to be honest, an opportunity to re-energize my existing friendships and go out into the world and make new ones. And so it was a really vibrant time in my life eventually. And I think my experience, contrary to Lucy's, which I'm really sorry to hear about Lucy, I would feel hurt too in that situation. My experience is coloured by the fact that I'm a gay woman and most of my significant relationships have been with other women. And there's been a long tradition of having very conscious breakups in that community. I believe that lesbians pioneered conscious uncoupling long before Gwyneth Paltrow. Because in a small community, you kind of have to because you're all going to see each other. You're all going to still get together and have to deal with one another.

So in that sense, if you can stay friends with your ex, then nobody really has to take a slide at all because you're all a part of the same friendship group. And it doesn't all fragment and separate in that same way. So, OK, so if you're in a scenario where, for instance, you really like your best friend's partner, they split up, is it okay to remain good friends with your ex? What if your best friend meets someone else? And might that be quite awkward if you're all together? I don't know.

It can get complicated. But I do think your good friends will stick with you after a breakup and they might decide to stick with your ex as well. And if it's not been the easiest breakup or it's not the easiest breakup for a time, then maybe they do have to see you separately. But I do think in communities where the sense of community and family and tribe, I think in the LGBT plus community, the sense of tribe is not determined by whether you're in a couple or what kind of relationship you're in or not in. It's determined by the fact that you're LGBT

and you've in some way felt a bit of an outsider, perhaps as you've been growing up, particularly if you're my age and I've been dating since the 1990s. So that sense of community is the all-important thing. So you do go through those painful experiences and try and work them out. And we often have to seek help from people like Lucy who can counsel us. Well, there, so Lucy, you've got lived experience, but you are also a counsellor.

So you talk to people about this day in, day out. What if one party is doing it on purpose? Do you think this friends become part of the warfare of divorce or separation? Yes. It's interesting Rosie mentioned conscious uncoupling because I'm actually a conscious uncoupling trained coach. So part of that is, I think this and I think breakouts are very complicated. And it's really interesting what Rosie said and how it's managed. But breakouts are complicated and all sorts of very raw emotions come to the front. And it also kind of ricochets out to the people around us. And lots of people like a good old gossip and lots of people like to get together and take sides and go did you know that she and then all sorts of nasty stuff can come out but also lots of very good stuff can come out but people find that quite difficult so i think friends you know can you stay friends with both people um and i'm talking about um heteronormative couples here so different i mean yes but i do

think it's difficult because when you're in pain and in her and this is where and i'm being very honest about myself i wanted people to be team lucy that didn't mean to say that i wanted them not to be okay about my ex because actually we're very you know we're very amicable and he's you know he's a very good person on it um but i wanted them i wanted people to be there for me well listen to this because unsurprisingly we're getting a lot of messages from the listeners here i'm going to read one out because it's quite relevant to what you've just said many of our friends have divorced and we've done our best to keep the friendships going one partner will then say they won't

remain friends with us unless we dump the other very difficult oh yeah look both of you that's when you're getting into the i well what you're really see it's going underneath i'm thinking what are you actually saying they're saying i need you to be my friend and be my support but you you can't get all your friends to do that you have to just ask you know there's okay to say to people temporarily could you back me yeah on my side that doesn't know, it's really complicated. Rosie, what do you think? You took a sharp intake of breath. I did, I did.

I'm not sure we can give our friends ultimatums, even though it's very tempting to do so. I have been guilty a lot in the past of being cross with the person who initiates the breakup because I often feel empathy for the person who has been dumped because that was my experience in my most painful and darkest time. So I've had to really think about that, because

it does mean in heterosexual divorces, people are often crossed with the woman, because 75% of them are initiated by the woman, often for very, very good reasons, of course. So I have had to understand that in any breakup, there's often two truths that are completely different, but are also true. So aside from obviously very toxic, abusive behaviour, many relationships just fizzle out. And it's very difficult to stay together. Relationships are complicated. Human beings are very, very complex. So relationships are hard. And I think we have to be understanding about our friends going through a hard time. And if I behaved badly during a breakup, I would hope that my friends would understand why I was doing that and be there for me. Lucy, is it easier for friends to veer towards the party that they can feel sorry

for? Because it gives the friends a role. You can pataddle them up, you can drink some wine with them. Is it easier for them rather than the person who seems okay? Yes, I think that's actually true. I do think Rosie's right. I do think there is something about people being a little bit more damning towards the female part of the partnership. That's what i have experienced and found if you've had the temerity to say actually i i'm out of this relationship yeah i think people

like to be to be helpers i actually i'm not sure if men really want to swallow people up and look after them i think women want to swallow you up and there is that sisterhood of sitting in the garden or sitting in your home and opening a bottle of whatever and crying and talking. And that's quite healing and cathartic. And of course, lots of friends can be great. But I do think it's a very, you know, difficult, fervent time for friends. And also you're moving from the tribe of the couple. Oh, look, we're a couple to the tribe of the single. And you've suddenly got two single people rather than this thing called a couple. Okay, and very, very quickly because we're running out of time.

Have you moved on? Have you got new friends? Are you bothered about the friends you lost? I have friends that have been with me for a very, very long time. I think the friendships that were great and real are with me and I think we change friendships quite a lot actually as life goes on so some people are with you forever and i've known my one of my best friends since i was 10 and i've also met some new friends really recently all women hooray who i love and adore so yeah happy happy good news lucy cavendish rosie will be thank you so much for talking to me

about that now the soprano golda schultz is one of the opera world's most versatile and in-demand performers. Born in South Africa, Golda initially wanted to be a journalist, but made the leap to become a professional singer, overcoming severe stage fright. She's since studied

at Juilliard Music School in New York, performed at the Proms and the Royal Opera House in London. And currently she's in Edinburgh, about to appear in the lead role in Mozart's opera Così fan tutti. Good morning Golda, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. We are excited. First of all, is it your first time in Edinburgh? How are you finding it? It's my fourth time in Edinburgh actually. I seem to not be able to stop myself from coming here

even though the weather's not exactly favourable. Tell me about your role in Cosi Fantuti. So I'm singing the role of Fiori Ligi. And she's a part of a sister duo. And she and her sister are engaged to two men who decide to take up a bet with an older gentleman that says their women will be faithful no matter what. And they then dress themselves up as, you know, some gentleman from afar off land and try to seduce their girlfriends. And well, in all the chaos, well, the girls fail and so do the men. Everybody just messes up really badly. And so it's quite apt that you say cosi fan tutti because everybody is like that. We all make a mess if we're not careful with other people's feelings.

Yeah, it's interesting that they put women at the centre of this and the suggestion is that women are always unfaithful or fickle. How do you approach that? It's very difficult because, you know, if you're looking at it in terms of, well, from the patriarchal gaze, yes, it would seem that women are always fickle and unfaithful. But when you start to really look at it, I'm very interested by the fact that these women in the show, they constantly do say no quite regularly. The men just don't take no for an answer. So I think that's something that we also kind of need to explore, that if you don't want to hear the word no then of course people are going to seem fickle because eventually someone has to acquiesce so that things can move in a in a direction I was really interested in musical theater actually as

a kid and I was in school choirs but when I got to university I just my my father suggested don't become a musician do something else And so I studied journalism instead. And along with my journalism degree, I took any newspapers or anything about semiotics or the creation of meaning and just the meaning of journalistic ethics. So I was like, okay, maybe this is something that I should consider seriously. I mean, you've obviously got a gift as well. But you've always had this passion for music, but your early performances were quite challenging. I started by saying that you suffered from stage fright. Explain exactly what happened.

Oh, the stage fright was absolutely debilitating, if you want to believe it. My first time stepping on stage, I sang my aria and the blood kind of left my body. And after I finished singing, I passed out and fainted. And that happened for every time I sang for at least the first six months of stepping on a stage. I would go on stage, I would sing and someone would be standing nearby to just catch me depending on which side I collapsed. Golda, that's so serious. I'm surprised that you carried on. But what got you through that? How did you get over it? I actually had a really, really interesting lecturer. He took me aside one day and he said, I know this is really terrifying for you, but I think you're too talented to not try. And what he said was most fascinating for him was the fact

that I would faint after having done the performance. Not before, not during, but exactly once the double bar of the music landed. So he was like, so something in me tells me, something about you tells me that you still want to fight and you want to try. So that's what kept me going. Hooray for that lecturer. You're from a mixed race family and were born during apartheid in the 80s. Did that have an impact on how you and your family accessed music?

Both my parents are brown skinned individuals. So in South Africa, we're considered coloreds and that's a completely different racial group. So when we when I grew up, we lived in a very colored, colored neighborhood when I first was born. And then we moved to a very racially diverse part of South Africa, up in the northern part of South Africa. And that actually opened up my access to music because there were really great after-school programs for kids. And you could either do sports, gymnastics, dance, or music, and you just had to test into the program

and you would get very reasonably priced lessons in whatever you wanted. And so I was really, really lucky in that sense. But I know that a lot of my other family, the rest of my family, they weren't as fortunate because they just didn't live in the same area as me. So it's a very difficult and tough thing to recognize that I was offered a lot of opportunities that a lot of my other colleagues who've also grown up in the part of South Africa and are now singing internationally. We didn't grow up the same, but somehow classical music has opened the world to us and just given us such a great opportunity and such great access. And here you are talking to me

from Edinburgh. That's performed for the fourth time with everything you've gone through in terms of stage fright and performance anxiety. How do you prepare? How do you deal with your pre-show nerves? I'm actually really much better about it, but I do recognize that the anxiety is really just a lot of energy. And so what I try to do is I try to use up some of it so that it's not just, you don't want to be like a racehorse

because an opera isn't a hundred meter sprint if you want to make a comparison to any, like the Olympic Games. It's not a hundred meter sprint. This is a long sprint, if you want to make a comparison to the Olympic Games. It's not a 100-meter sprint. This is a long marathon. So you have to pace yourself. So you do what any good marathon runner does. You do a warm-up run.

So I take the morning before a show. I try to move my body. I go through my music. As any good athlete would, you work the course in your mind. So you know where you're going to have your trouble spots and you try and focus, but well, how am I going to get around that difficult corner? And how am I going to make sure I have the energy to get to the next moment? And kind of like a good, like a bike race or a marathon runner, you're really, I'm really spending

my time working the track, figuring out where I want to be. I love the analogy. What did the professor that helped you? He must be so proud of you. What does he make of your success? Do you know what? I really would love to talk to him again. I still have to look him up to tell him you won't believe it, but I'm actually working Professor Scar. Professor Scar, there you go. She's having a whale of a time.

The girl's done good. Golda Schultz, thank you so much for speaking to me. Opera singer Golda Schultz, isn't she remarkable? She's going to be performing in Cosi Fantuti at the Edinburgh International Festival tomorrow on the 10th of August. That's all from me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour, where multi-award winning British roots, blues and Americana rock sensation Ellis Bailey will be talking to me. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started

like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.