Woman's Hour - Olympics -girls and urban sports; Disability & dating; Bobbi Brown; Emma-Jean Thackray; Women talking about men; Lucy St Louis

Episode Date: August 7, 2021

Will the young women smashing it at the Olympics in the new urban sports of BMX freestyling, Skateboarding and Sport Climbing inspire a new generation of girls to follow in their footsteps? Skateboarder Hannah Shrewsbury and BMX freestyler Kayley Ashworth discuss. Women trash-talking men has gone too far: that's what the journalist James Innes Smith believes. He shares his viewpoint with Fiona Sturges, from the Financial Times and the Guardian, who doesn't agree.Trumpeter, band leader, singer, multi instrumentalist jazz queen. Emma-Jean Thackray on her debut album Yellow, which is number one on the Jazz & Blues Chart.The reality dating show Love Island features for the first time a contestant with a disability Joy Addo, who has a podcast where she talks about her life as a visually impaired, single mum, and Kelly Gordon, the Disability and Inclusion Lead at sex toy company Hot Octopuss, discuss the realities of dating with a disability.The shift to mask wearing and homeworking saw many of us ditch our make-up during the pandemic. Perhaps not the best time to launch a new beauty business – but that’s what Bobbi Brown has done. Phantom of the Opera was first performed 35 years ago in London’s West End. It has just reopened and Lucy St Louis is playing the female lead – Christine Daae, the first Black woman to play this role.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello there. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Choice cuts from the week just gone. Women can write and talk badly about men, often in sexist terms. Why is that acceptable in a way that would no longer be permitted the other way round? Well, that's the view of journalist James Innes-Smith. More from him in a bit. Hugo is the first person with a disability to feature on the dating reality TV show Love Island, where we speak to two bloggers about their experiences of being disabled,

dating and how to communicate your wants and needs during sex. I said, you know, you're going to have to help me onto the toilet at some point, right? And he was like, yeah, should we just stop at the services and get it out the way and I was like yeah let's do it so we we stopped at the services and we sent all my PA's pictures from the toilet of me having a wee and him helping me we were like couples first so you know sometimes it's about making light of those situations. The entrepreneur Bobbi Brown and trailblazer of the natural Look on starting her new beauty brand and a treat, not one, but two performers. We speak to Lucy St. Louis, the first black woman to play the lead in The Phantom of the Opera,

and Emma Jean Thackery. Her album Yellow is currently number one in the jazz album charts and she popped along to Woman's Hour HQ for a chat. But first, Sky Brown, the 13-year-old bronze medal winning skateboarder, has already inspired the nation with her kickflips, ollies, nollies, flip tricks and shove-its. But now she's made a statement that we at Woman's Hour fully endorse.

You just get out there, you know, you can't let all the boys have all the fun. You gotta go and enjoy the time and, I mean, enjoy life and try new things. Well, you'll have seen some of the other young girls smashing it at the Olympics in Tokyo in skateboarding, BMX freestyling, sport climbing and surfing. Well, these sports have all been added in recent years as part of a drive to make the Games more inclusive, with the International Olympic Committee president, Thomas Bach, wanting them to be more gender balanced, more youthful and more urban. Well, it's certainly done that. I spoke to Kayleigh Ashley, BMX freestyler, and Hannah Shrewsbury, a skateboarder in Nottingham.

What did she think of what Skye had to say? I think she's so inspirational at such a young age. It's actually insane to see. As a whole, I think it's just eye-opening to people that don't skate necessarily or don't take part in these sports and I think the Olympics is going to open up a whole new world of skate spots for us because a lot of the time we get kicked off because it's illegal to skate on certain areas police will come and boot us away but now it's more like accepted yeah she legitimized it yeah exactly and for girls it's intimate it can be intimidating

enough going to skate a spot on your own let alone having that second thinking like oh I'm gonna get kicked off by police or security so it just it makes things a lot easier for us I think as women and skaters and what got you into it how did you start my boyfriend funnily enough um so I when I started skating there was like a few girls skating in Nottingham, but there wasn't like many at all. And then we went to a girls' night at Flow, our local skate park. And I met all my friends that skate through that. And then since then, it's just blown up through lockdown.

It was insane going to all the outside parks and stuff, seeing all the girls. I coach at Flow as well. So seeing the children, just it's insane. There's more girls than boys skating at those beginner lessons. And I think watching Sky Brown is going to have a huge impact. And what does that do, going to a skate park where they do girls only events? Does that just make it feel safer? Is it more encouraging?

Is it just easier to skate without the boys? All of the above, really. It's not necessarily like a skill separation. It's gendered separations. It just makes it such a vibe. Like they have the playlist on that we love. It's all girls just helping each other. Like it's just imagine like a big sleepover but no sleepover and you're all skateboarding. Sounds brilliant. I'm going to bring Kayleigh in. I'm sure she'll fully approve of all of this. Kayleigh, you're a freestyle BMXer, different sport to Sky Brown.

How much do you agree with her about not letting the boys have all the fun? Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that this sport is not just for boys. I've been riding this bike now for so long. It helps in many ways, including my physical and mental well-being. You go out there, have a cycle, get the wind through your hair, and then find yourself at a skate park, and you're faced with all these different obstacles, different sizes, different shapes, and you make that commitment to go down into the ramp and do the trick. No matter what peer pressure is around you, you still have to make that move yourself,

and you can prove to yourself that you're capable of this. And it is so much fun once you've done it. You get such a rush. And it is so highly skilled. And we saw the likes of Charlotte Worthington, who won gold. She pulled off a 360 backflip. Oh, isn't that incredible? Amazing.

The first ever landed by a female rider in a BMX competition. How exciting was it to see an achievement like that? I woke the entire street up. incredible amazing the first ever landed by a female rider in a BMX competition how exciting was it to see an achievement like that I woke the entire street up I screamed so loud because she did crash on the first one so we were a little bit hesitant as to whether she was going to commit to the next you know we all saw her head hit the ramp as she rolled down there injuries do come as part of this sport but as you know the commitment was in there and she sent it and she nailed it and we went I was screaming and the run was just complete and she kept going with a front flip. Oh, my mind was blown.

It's just, you know, it's just remarkable watching the Olympics anyway. But there is just something spectacular when you see people doing these incredible tricks and landing them so brilliantly. And Kelly, there's also Bethany Shriver, who won gold medal as a BMX racer last week, different to you, different discipline. But Bethany had to crowdfund her Olympic bid whilst also working as a teaching assistant in a nursery. Do you think her success will mean that women in BMXing will now get more funding? Well, I hope it is a very good reason as to why they should reconsider the amount of funding that the cycling sport has received so far and skateboarding and surfing and climbing because there is a strong female participant across the board so if we had a little bit more then maybe we wouldn't be teaching assistants I have three jobs at the moment I'm a cleaner I work within the NHS

and I work within the school so in order to make things a reality you do have to take this on board yourself but it only shows the commitment that we already have so if we were to be given some more funding this sport is only going to grow and it's going to grow at such an exponential rate because we have these huge competitive levels now and this was never a thing before. Hannah you're nodding away there I'm going to bring you in yeah definitely I mean it's specifically obviously skateboarding but women in competitions hasn't been a thing for like a long time I know that I've not seen competitive skating at a big level for women for a long long time hopefully I'll get to the stage where it's just not based on gender it's just based on how amazing you are but that's going to

come when more people keep trying it and getting better and better um I think I know a lot of BMXers I don't really know about like freestyle and stuff that's sick but I know they get no funding if you get a sponsorship in riding a bike I don't think you can get paid cash I think you only can get paid in sponsorship as far as I'm aware I don't know about anyone who's paid big leagues in cash so I just think it's really sad like you say you're having to work three jobs and continue trying to do this hobby that takes up a lot of your time your energy and yeah I think it's just something that's overlooked massively. Well hopefully now seeing all these amazing women performing at the Olympics is going to change that somewhat um how did how did you get into it?

Oh I was quite the hyperactive child um my dad put me through every single sport and every musical instrument that he could get his hands on to get me to play. BMX freestyle was one of those where there were no rules. I didn't have to go to a club every day. I could go to the skate park when I wanted to. Now I first went to a skate park funnily enough on a skateboard and it didn't go to plan. I opened my chin after trying to drop into the ramp so I decided maybe a BMX was best for me so I just attended the skate park and get going my dad got me a BMX from eBay a grand total of 17 pounds so I'm sure there's still smelt there now with a bit of Facebook marketplace hunting to get your first BMX so it doesn't have to be expensive but eventually. So, you know, get your pad in at the right time,

get your helmets on at the right time. That is not something that you don't want to purchase for the sake of it. You know, your helmet is really important. Well, Thomas Bach, who is the IOC president, has said that he wants the Olympics to be more gender balanced, more youthful and more urban.

I guess he's saying he wants to democratise it a little bit. And what you're talking about, if being cheap to get into makes it easier for people to start. Do you think that's why these are popular sports at the moment? Because, you know, it's not that expensive to get on a skateboard or to buy a secondhand BMX and just get cycling or skating on your street. Yeah, 100 percent. And there's also the sport of scootering, which, you know, Charlotte actually started on first and is much more portable and smaller than a BMX. And all the skills are transferable.

Now, skateboard is also just as small. You can get it in the boot of the car and leave it in there if need be. But it's a good source of entertainment. You know, you only need a curb. You just need a bit of flat tarmac. You don't need the skate park to begin with. That's always just something that you progress on to.

Scootering. Every three year old in Britain seems to be on their scooters these days. Hannah, do you think, why do you think these new urban sports are particularly good for women? Obviously, the mental side and the physical side, that's just a given. There's been reports done about skating, specifically in mental health and the benefits of it but it's cool isn't it like if you see someone riding by on a bike or a skateboard and you're like that's a girl doing that she looks wicked I'm not going to blow my own trumpet because sometimes I fall off and look not so wicked but like it's just it's free and it's something that is stereotypically boys and so you you're just like, well, why can't I do it? I'm going to do it. Yeah, where we coach, there's a lot of kids

that are from disadvantaged backgrounds. We give boards away if they've been used. Like we'll just leave boards at skate parks for kids if needed. We want to involve as many women as we can in this to take over the boys. Well, Sky Brown's message of girls getting out there and not letting boys have all the fun inspired you to get in touch with us. Maria writes, loved my red Hawaii Five-0 skateboard,

my prized possession in 1975. Parents had emigrated to Canada. I loved bombing up and down the road. 360s and 180s were the only tricks then. No skate parks, but had great fun. Keep boarding, girls. And Madge Deepers says, in the 1980s, I asked my sports teacher why I couldn't play football in the boys team. I was told that girls couldn't play football. I went to the head and asked her why I couldn't play. She agreed I could. So I played with the boys football team in boots too big, having a great time. Always wanted to get on a skateboard and I loved a bit of street cricket. Now, women are regularly writing and talking badly about men, often in sexist terms, viewed as acceptable in a way

that would no longer be permitted the other way round. That's the view of the journalist James Innes Smith, the author of The Seven Ages of Man. A recent example includes the comments by women, although not exclusively so, after Matt Hancock resigned as health secretary after being pictured kissing an aide. Women writing and talking about Matt Hancock being unattractive and punching above his weight.

He also uses research by the BBC last month about its audiences to bolster his case. More than a quarter of men feel that the BBC no longer reflects them. Not least because he believes Radio 4 has turned into one long episode of Woman's Hour. Emma spoke to him and Fiona Sturges, arts writer for the Financial Times and The Guardian. Emma started by asking him for an example of the way that women talk and write about men that would not be acceptable the other way around. Well, there was a journalist who had a new book out about how she changed her life and her husband.

And she's a well-respected journalist and she's married to a journalist called David Goodhart. And you're talking about Lucy Kellaway. Sorry, did you not know her? And it just felt to me as if I use the example of Jeremy Clarkson. Imagine if he'd written a book saying how I changed my underpants, my car and my wife. You know, we just seem a little bit kind of fatuous and not very kind. Whereas we kind of have to laugh it off if it's the other way around, because, well, maybe men have had it good for too long and maybe it's a bit of payback time. And what do you take? Stop being so po-faced about it.

Well, that seems to me a little bit of double standards. And if we are going to say, well, look, let's let's all be kind to each other and let's not judge each other on our physical looks or on our sexuality. Well, let's let's do that across the board. Fiona, let me bring you in. There is a message here saying, I absolutely agree. We cannot achieve equality by insulting others, whether they be male or female. And another one here saying, around feminism shouldn't be used for revenge, it's beneath us, it does nothing to improve some men's poor opinions of women. Working together to

make the best use of the strength is all the way forward. And a lot of messages I have to say about this just being a very privileged position to even be in to be having these conversations. But I'm going to have to just part that to one side even though it's an important contextual element what what do you make of some of the ways that that women have been writing and speaking about men perhaps we should be the ones doing things differently are the sort of strain of messages coming in from some people here I do agree that you know, kindness and politeness and not being abusive should be the baseline for all of these discussions. I do think we have to dig down a little deeper here, though, and think about the balance of power. So when a woman is being, is making a throwaway

remark about a man that isn't cruel, because, you know, cruelty is not good. You have to think about the difference between, I think James, you took the example of Matt Hancock, a woman commentator on the sidelines throwing an offhand remark about a man in power, in government compared to the more common sort of scenario with men punching down towards women, you know, men sort of exerting their existing power. So I think that is worth digging into. But, you know, I say that with the feeling that abusiveness is not okay. Now, you mentioned in your article,

the book, I Hate Men by Pauline Hermange, if I pronounced the name correctly there. And I wondered if you'd actually read that, because although I Hate Men is a very explosive title, the book itself really is looking at whether after thousands of years of oppression and patriarchy, it's okay for women to say, you know, not to be polite about it, to stop being appeasing, to stop being reasonable all the time, and whether it's okay to kind of explode every now and then with anger after years of oppression.

So Fiona's brought a couple of points there. Let's deal just with that last one, James. That's the context. Men began this situation, if you like, these war of insults and all of this, one way when there was no oppression of men. So the context is quite important. Do you accept that,

James? Yeah, but where are we now? I mean, I'm more interested in where we are now. And I would hope that there's less malign intent from what you might call the patriarchy and that we do respect each other more. Tit for tat, you know, we suffered for a thousand years, you pay back time. I don't think that helps anybody. I think we've matured as human beings and we should celebrate that and try and work with that. I'm a big fan of facts and statistics and looking into a report from Ofcom, the broadcasting watchdog, the media watchdog, looking at the facts, for instance, in television and radio, which is where you're speaking about the BBC as well from 2019 to 2020, shows that now, for instance, women make up 47% of employees, for instance, across broadcasting, which is bang in line with the proportion of women in the working age in the UK. But women remain underrepresented at senior levels. So Fiona's point about power,

you cannot ignore the upper hand that the patriarchy, whether you want to call it that or not, James, has handed men and gives men in those situations, whether it's in a working environment or otherwise. That's not to say I'm ignoring what you've just said about tit for tat. But do you understand that there is a major difference in terms of power there still? Well, there's an assumption that it's a malign power that women are being held back from these powerful jobs. Well, maybe that's true, but maybe there are other factors as well to do with circumstance and choice. I mean, I could quote for you another statistic, the bookseller, I mean, I work in publishing and 85% of the class of 2021, which

is the sort of up and coming people within publishing, 85% of women. Of the 45 rising stars, only seven are men. And this is featured on the cover of the bookseller, who do go on a lot about inequality and pay gaps and all that. And here we are on the cover of bookseller, 45 up-and-coming publishing people within the whole of publishing, and seven are men. Within editing, it's even less. It's two versus 15. So where do we go with that? Do we say that men are being held back from those jobs? Should women step aside and allow more men into those roles?

So you're concerned about the gender imbalance coming through the ranks in books and now across in terms of publishing. Are you concerned about that in terms of the jobs? Are you concerned about that in terms of the jobs? Are you concerned about that in terms of cultural output? Because to put your own argument back to you, you said, perhaps that's all that people wanted to do. That's what they wanted to do. And that's where they are.

Well, perhaps that's an interesting point. It's very interesting. I've noticed in the past 20 years since being in publishing that when I go into my publishing hashet, that everyone is of a very similar age. There's a lot of ageism, I think, actually in publishing that when I go into my publishing hashet that everyone is of a very similar age there's a lot of ageism I think actually in publishing but also it tends to be a very certain type of middle class white university educated 32 year old women right from editing through to publicity across the board now you could say well there's nothing wrong with that

and I'm not necessarily saying there is, but it's an interesting demographic shift that's worth exploring. And if we're saying, well, you know, in the BBC, the high paid jobs are still dominated by men. Well, then you can say, well, in publishing, it's dominated by women. So where, what's actually going on? I suppose when you talk about choice, though, you know, what do you mean by that?

Because there'll be lots of things that are hidden within that. Is it a choice to perhaps not have the childcare or be able to afford the childcare, for instance, that you want? And you're not in a situation to keep going forward. I mean, the other thing, just to bring you back in, Fiona, to try and get to a couple of the other areas that James was mentioning and to extrapolate from that, is the idea that the content that we're getting is more female focused at the moment that men are being potentially whether it's in books or on air being airbrushed out what do you make of that as a critic there are definitely more there is more female content and there are more female stories being told i know i'm going to say this but i think that's wonderful because

we've exhausted the male stories i mean we haven't i I'm being facetious there. But it's still a novelty. And so what I think James might be feeling, I might be wrong, James, is that you're looking across the culture, you're looking across publishing. And I agree, I've seen myself publishing, you know, the sort of mid-level employees are weighted towards women. I'd like to know who's at the top. That's what I'm more interested in. But in terms of the stories are being told, the books that are coming up, the TV dramas that we see, we are hearing more women's stories. And for you and for men, that's quite new. I mean, you're not used to us. Your eyes just aren't used to us. And I feel like sometimes, yes, that pendulum may swing because there'll be a huge commissioning drive across the arts where we're looking at people of colour who've been, you know, marginalised forever. We're looking at stories of the LGBTQ community. We're looking at the stories of marginalised groups.

And so to the sort of casual observer, it may well look like there are loads of these stories so what's happened to all the all the male stories but I promise you if you look at the tv schedules across the streaming networks across the BBC you will see there are endless male stories still being told it's just that a lot of the exciting content at the moment is coming from women and people of colour and that's the stuff that sort of rides us to the top in the media. I agree with that but I think the reason men are feeling left out is because the stories that are being written by a lot of the women writers tend to be about the issues of women's issues. Have you been able to talk about them before? Well I think that you could argue this but are some of the male stories that we've had in the past, they aren't necessarily about men.

They're universal stories that we can all relate to. If you start writing specifically about women's actual experiences, then you are talking to only half the population. I mean, men may be interested in it, but you're not really talking to them. Sorry, why does drama generally have to talk specifically to you why aren't you interested in women's stories fiona sturgis and james inner smith talking to emma there and you got in touch anne says since humans appeared on earth men have been in control of most things but a few years ago things began to change but women aren't in control of many things and now men think women have taken over oh please debbie says as the mother of four sons and granny to three grandsons this is music to my ears the bias against men in

current society hugely inhibits the confidence of boys growing up we all need to be much more understanding and kind to each other and kath writes i'm a woman woodworker single parent and And Kath writes, Such sexism can only perpetuate the pendulum of inequality I've been state schooled, I'm lower middle class by origin I'm now 50 years old and never seen any advantage for my male peers in any of my chosen professions, woodworker, gardener, market seller And if you'd like to email us, please do go to our website Band leader, multi-instrumentalist, singer and producer Emma-Jean Thackeray was born and raised in Yorkshire and started out playing the cornet in a brass band. She now has her own record label, Movement, and has just released her

debut album, Yellow, which has reached number one in the jazz and blues charts. Here's a clip of a track, Sun. The clouds can never faze you If you hold life within And know the sun above you Till you begin The sun, it holds us The sun, it grows us Hands up and To the sky She joined me in the studio. How would she describe the sound?

All kinds of sounds from, you know, the sort of more spiritual jazz like Alice Coltrane through to P-funk, through to, you know, the stuff that you hear these days like Thundercat. But everything is in this kind of netherworld of like, you're not really sure what genre it is. I have to say, it's such a pleasure to listen to an album from beginning to end. And I love that you describe it as a cycle, because you have to listen to it from beginning to end.

And I've been listening to you all weekend. You're already a contender for my album of the year. Just going to put that out there. Oh, thank you. This is a record where it's kind of like, I'm just trying to show you as much of me as possible. So I've got the performer side, playing a couple of different instruments, producing it and mixing it myself. But stuff that I've never really shown before, like the orchestral side is in there as well.

Like my masters is in like, you know, jazz orchestral composition. So that's something that I'd never put on a record before. So it's, yeah, just me in a wax disc. In all your glory um so now we've met your present day you're currently number one in the uh jazz blues charts but let's take it back let's take it back to Yorkshire little Emma Jean and you started off in the tradition of brass bands how did when did you pick up your first musical instrument I was eight when I picked up the cornet it was um at primary school

my primary school had a really good music program and a really good brass teacher there and it was just a really immediate kind of childish attraction to this cornet like my friend had one it was shiny and loud and I just gave it gave it a blow and had a I'd had a little bit of natural aptitude and it went from there. They're quite hard to play though, aren't they? Yeah, from doing a lot of teaching myself back in the day as well with kids, it's not usual for someone to be able to get a sound straight away. And do you come from a very musical family? Not at all. I'm sort of the only one. Everyone appreciates music, everyone has a love for it,

for their own thing that's special to them. But no one plays anything. I'm not really sure where I came from, really. But they encouraged it, obviously, because you had a natural aptitude. Yeah, well, it was more so that they knew that they couldn't stop me. So they had to either drive me to the rehearsals and support me or I'd go do it myself. I'd walk three hours to a rehearsal if I had to.

That's dedication. Yeah, I think someone has called me stubborn. Yeah I think someone has yeah called me stubborn but I think it's it's it's just dedication yeah. Well yeah stubborn's good too it's good to drive whatever you want to say we've been talking about um sort of the democratization of sports I was talking to the brilliant Kayleigh and Hannah the skateboarder and the BMXer about how it's just easy for them and for young people who can't necessarily afford to go and for swimming lessons or whatever it might be to just pick up a skateboard and just use your curb just how easy was it for you to get into music because often you know lessons for music are very expensive

it's it's not easy but there are there are ways that you can go about it like the the brass band I was part of uh gave me a cornet to use once once I joined and you know my parents clubbed together to get me a second hand instrument when I first started I was doing group lessons as a small child when I got to high school my high school was paying for things I was going and just doing lots of rehearsals for all kinds of different you know genres of music so my education was was through the you know being busy and trying lots of different things and you know for for a birthday I'd try and get people in my family to come together and get me like a guitar from Argos or something and then I taught myself so everything other than

the corner and the trumpet you know which are basically the same instrument I just taught myself I'm listening to music I'm playing along I'm figuring stuff out so there are ways to do it and schools you know they've got loads of old pianos in the corner. Just go give it a bash. So true. There's a lot of dusty old pianos in the country who need someone to play them. So how did you make the leap from brass band to jazz? Yeah, complete accident.

It was the sort of beginning of downloading music online. And I was on one of those platforms where you sort of illegally download tunes. But I was really, I was young. So, you so you know I forgive myself I hope everyone else does too I was gonna say nobody illegally download your album definitely thank you I need to make sure I can yeah keep making more um yeah and I and I was I was learning this brass band solo piece called Concerto de Orangeway it's sort of this ubiquitous brass band solo that a lot of a lot of people play and I downloaded the wrong version and it ended up being the Miles Davis version from Sketches of Spain. And it was like just one of those epiphanies where I was like, what on earth is this?

Who is this guy? And in my 13, 14 year old naivety, I thought I discovered Miles Davis. I thought no one knew about him. Amazing. What an album to have accidentally downloaded. Yeah, I really do think that I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing without hearing that record and that sort of accidental download. And nobody in the family was listening to jazz? Not at all. Well, my grandma and granddad are really into Santana. This is about as close as they get. Now, with playing

the brass band, breath is everything. And you had COVID really early on. So how did that affect you and your music? It meant that I couldn't play the trumpet. I couldn't sing. I think it's for about seven or eight months. I'm not sure. I did a little bit of trumpet playing on the Squid recent album. We recorded that in about August, I think.

And that was a real struggle. That was my first bit of playing since having COVID in the March. So it's something that's happened before. I've had a thing a couple years ago where my dog had tripped me up and I fell on my face and couldn't play for about a year. So these things have happened before and you just adapt. I think that's what we're really good at as humans. And because I work in lots of different ways, I just took on other things. So I was producing remixes for people, doing stuff for other people

and working really hard on sort of overdubbing the guitars and stuff on Yellow. So I had plenty to do. Well, let's listen to another track from Yellow. This is Spectre. There's a spectre in my house A fake fox around me There's a spectre in my heart

a black dog is haunting me I mean it is just epic, absolutely epic it just gets you such a beautiful track tell me about your musical mantra move the body, move the mind, move the soul.

It's the way I want to approach making music all the time and everything that I want to be released on my label as well. So for the body, so something visceral, whether that's a groove or just some kind of sound that really grabs you physically. For the mind, something that's cerebrally stimulating, maybe that's a forward-thinking melody or some harmony that's trying to push the boat. And for the soul, so it's music that's cerebrally stimulating maybe that's a forward thinking melody or some harmony that's you know trying to push the boat and for the soul so it's it's it's music that's got a

message it's trying to explore an idea it's it's got some some substance behind it it's not just music for music's sake and what was the what tell us about the that beautiful piece music we just heard tell us about specter because there's a specific story about that like you're telling us something about your life in this album aren't't you? Yeah, I mean, it's about struggles with mental health, whether my own or my friends or my partner. And it's about trying to find a bit of catharsis to, I guess, expel some of those demons and trying to use this metaphor of a haunting

where either yourself, you feel like a shell of yourself or someone you love feels like a shell of yourself or someone you love feels like a shell of themself that's just kind of haunting the house and almost seems slightly translucent like a ghost of their former self in some ways because all joy is just sucked from you and so I like to write words a little bit more open so metaphorical I'm not you know I'm not sort of writing directly directly with eyes so much and I'm hoping through that that people listening can apply their own stories, their own journeys and join in that catharsis as well.

I can highly recommend it, an album to be savoured from beginning to end. That was Emma-Jean Thackery. Now, Love Island is one of the biggest dating reality TV shows in the UK and this season one contestant became the first disabled person to feature on the programme. 24-year-old Hugo has a condition called club foot, which happens because the Achilles tendon at the back of the ankle is too short. Some voices within the disabled community argue that while his appearance is a start, there is still a long way to go before real representation well we were joined on the

show by two women who spoke openly about dating sex and being disabled joy addo has a podcast where she talks about her life as a visually impaired single mum and kelly gordon is the disability and inclusion lead at sex toy company hot octopus emma started by asking joy how her visual impairment impacts her dating. I like to go to places that I am familiar with because even little things like, say I get to a date and I don't like the person, they're an absolute weirdo. I need to be able to know where the doors are to get back out, get myself a cab and go home. Just having that freedom of being able to get up and leave is really important.

And do you feel that you have to talk about not being able to see quite early on? Is it part of the conversation? Definitely. So I always put it in my dating profiles. But if I'm online, I put it in there because I don't want to just turn up with my pimp stick in hand and surprise them. I feel like it's more of a protection thing for me, but I do feel like a lot of the time men say that they're fine with it, but I think when they meet you in person and they see other people's reactions to me, then I think that's when you can really tell the difference

between the ones that actually don't care and the ones that do. Let me bring you Kelly into this Kelly can you tell us about how your disability impacts your life and specifically as we're talking about dating? Yeah I mean I'm probably one of the rare people that I've spoke to that I've actually had no problem dating with my disability just for a bit of background I'm a full-time wheelchair user an electric wheelchair user and I have always from a very young age been very interested in dating and sex I'm quite an out there person in terms of my job is literally to develop and talk about sex toys all the time

so I think I'm a probably a different kettle of, but it doesn't mean that when I started this dating journey as a teen that it wasn't difficult. You know, it was. There was a lot of things that I had to sort of deal with internally to get past sort of society's perceptions of disability and dating. And, you know, it's something that's very slowly changing, I think. But it's something that still has a long way to go. When you say that you're great about it, you're okay about it, and obviously you've gone into a line of work that would be a bit odd if you weren't. What does that mean, though? Or what do you wish people knew about being in a wheelchair for those who don't feel as comfortable? So not those who are going on the date who aren't necessarily disabled, but those who are disabled and feel like they So not those who are going on the date who aren't necessarily disabled,

but those who are disabled and feel like they need to be able to say things like, you know, I want to go on a date with you, but I might need to bring someone. Or if we go on a date together, you might need to help me with certain things. Or if we go away together, what have you had to say to people

to get them, if you like, prepared? Yeah, this is definitely an interesting one because it's something that I never used to do. And that sort of left me with a big question mark in my head throughout the day or the sexual experience or whatever it might be. But recently, I've been back in the dating world a couple of years ago. And it was something that I thought, you know, I'm going to give it a try. I'm going to be so open about what I actually need. And it was sort of revolutionary for me, just sort of having those conversations about, you know, if we do have casual sex, I'll need your help to get onto the bed.

You know, if we obviously go out for a date, it needs to be somewhere accessible. The person most of the time was pretty cool with it. I don't know whether that's just the sort of people that I was speaking with. But I always think it's better to have those conversations and keep communication open when it comes to obviously dating or when it comes to sex. I know you also have had to have a conversation about going to the loo. Yes. So my partner that I'm with now, we actually we had like a super quick relationship in that we met on Tinder.

I actually fell pregnant really quickly. So we did not have a very traditional courtship at all. But we were going on our first away trip together. And I'd always sort of done everything myself up to that point, like in sort of different ways and managed with my PAs like behind the scenes I suppose um so I actually obviously we were going away I had to have that conversation with my partner um but I just I don't know why but I just couldn't talk about it and we were on the way on this trip I was thinking you know I'll manage um but I said you know I just came out with it because it was playing on my mind so much I said you know you're gonna have to help me onto the toilet at some point right and he was like yeah should we just stop at the services and get it out the way and I was like yeah let's do it so we we stopped at the services

I wish I wish I could remember which one um and we sent all my PA's pictures from the toilet of me having a wee and him helping me we were like couples first thing together so you know sometimes it's about making light of those situations as well yeah well I mean I think for all the light there'll also be terrible moments where I'm sure Joy you can attest to this where people also just don't say the right thing what what are some of the more difficult things or things that you wish people would never say when dating you with with you know very impaired vision I think the first thing that springs to mind is people often say what happened to you like it was some big tragic accident and a lot of the time it's not that like some people are just born with conditions and things happen

so I think going into it in that way is never a good look. Also asking me, how do you have sex if you can't see? I always say like, if you're having sex with just your eyes, you're doing it all wrong. Definitely. True. Preach. I think a lot of people, you smiling, I can see you on our video here with a knowing smile. And I think that people though, perhaps also, you know, get nervous and they don't know what to say. So maybe that's also not necessarily, you know, get nervous and they don't know what to say. So maybe that's also not necessarily, you know, an excuse for it, but those are some of the things that you're hoping people don't say to you or continue to say to others. Kelly, have you gotten any? There's the classics for wheelchair users. You know, you can be out and about having a drink and they'll say, don't drink

and drive. Or have you got a license for that and you know all those kind of dad jokes that you hear all the time and you know I was actually talking to somebody the other day on my podcast about this and I said how do wheelchair users deal with this and she said you just need to know your boundaries and you just need to say that it's not okay and I thought oh my god the British person inside me is cringing so much right now. But it's true. Why do we accept people saying these things and just kind of laugh it off? I don't understand. Joy, is there anything that you wanted to add that you think able-bodied people should know that they don't know? So not just the things not to say, but perhaps, you know, for those who are also looking for a relationship, looking for love and maybe need some education.

I would say to able-bodied people, treat us like you treat everybody else. Like it's absolutely fine. Like there's no need to be nervous. I think like you'll find a lot of the time when someone has a disability, we know, like we're used to it and we know what our boundaries are. So you as an able-bodied person, you don't need to be worried about coming up to us and asking us out like we like casual sex just as much as the next person allegedly um but I just

think yeah like just be literally open and just treat us normally like it's it's absolutely fine Kelly anything you want to add if you cut off the disabled community as part of your area that you go to to look for dates, that's it. You're cutting off a massive part of the population and community. And disabled people are interesting, sexy, confident, accomplished. Why would you do that? You know, open your mind and try and get a connection with someone, disabled or not. Do you think that some disabled people also perhaps limit themselves because they don't think that they should date anyone who perhaps doesn't understand the situation that they may be in?

Oh, definitely. It goes both ways. And I've said this to disabled people as well. You know, some disabled people think that they can only date disabled people because of that understanding. But also, you know, I think when I was younger, I saw myself as, you know, being disabled is a struggle and you feel different. So you're kind of limiting yourself to people that are the same as you. And I think from both sides of the coin, it's wrong. You should get to know as many people as you can. You know, maybe your soulmate is disabled or maybe they're not.

That's just, you know, something that you need to find out going along. Kelly Gordon and Joy Addo there. Now, the shift to mask wearing and working from home saw many of us ditch our makeup during the pandemic. Not exactly the best time to launch a new beauty business, but that's what 64-year-old Bobbi Brown has done with her new direct-to-consumer

beauty brand, Jones Road. 30 years ago, the makeup artist and entrepreneur launched 10 lipsticks in a department store in the USA that evolved into a global beauty brand. The company was bought up by Estee Lauder in 1995, but Bobbi retained control of the makeup line until she left her business baby five years ago to strike out once again on her own. When I first left, I couldn't even come near a counter. Emotionally, it was really, really difficult for me. And now I walk by a counter and it doesn't feel or look the way it was when I was there. And I don't have any emotional attachment to it. And I could, it's been enough

time that I could just be proud of what I did, you know, especially in the beginning and what differences I've made to the industry and in women's lives. But it took a lot of work to get to that point. Yeah. I'll bet. It's your name. It's you. Well, it's not just my name. It was my baby, my ideas, my creation. It was my team. You know, I had to leave my team. And any entrepreneur knows your team is everything to you. A hallmark of your beauty brands, your makeup brands, has been around the natural.

So making women still look like they look, but perhaps with dewier complexion or whatever, glossier lip. And we are in a different space in many ways for a lot of women now, especially with social media. How concerned are you about it going so far the other way? I'm talking about contouring. I'm talking about the tutorials that flood our social media feeds the whole time. Well, the good news, neither are going away. The contoured, over-made up look, the makeup how-tos on Instagram, on YouTube, they're here to stay. But there's another road. There's a road you could take where you say, okay, I'm tired of feeling bad because I don't look like that, because I'm not young, because I'm not as pretty, because I'm not

this. And the road that I want women to take is, okay, guess what? You could feel better about yourself. You could look better. And I want to show people both from the inside out, how, not easy, it's hard work, but how it's possible to make yourself look fresher and prettier. There will be some listening to this thinking, why do we still need to look prettier? You know, why do we still need to do that? Well, it's for me, it's about what you feel when you look in the mirror. It's not anything else. You know, cosmetic sales fell during the pandemic. And I wonder what you make about that. I should also say, I know that, you know, cosmetic sales fell during the pandemic. And I wonder what you make about that. I should also say, I know that, you know, people spent actually other money on skincare a bit more.

Do you think that has changed our relationship with makeup during the pandemic? I mean, look, there's people that are now dressing up like they're going to a black tie, you know, while they're having lunch in, you know, in town. But most of us, I would say, or, you know, half of us at least are really casual. I like nothing better than to do my Zooms and have my meetings and wearing shorts and, you know, putting on a pair of sneakers when I run out of the door and I'm not doing a ton of makeup like I did. You know, I'm five foot tall and I happen to be in my 60s and I'm not going to put the pointy shoes on that I actually still have in my closet. I'm just not going to do it. I can't be uncomfortable anymore. You're at a different stage, I suppose, in some

ways to what we were just starting to talk about, which is a lot of people on social media and the influencers and all of that, not in terms of age, but stage that you've just described, that people don't necessarily can get to a different point and feel like they don't have to be influenced like that. You're now, as you say, selling direct to consumer. You'll be, I presume, engaging all the time with social media or your team certainly will be. I know you say that there are two roads to keep going with the pun there, but there are concerns about how much pressure in particular

is going on to young women about how they look. Could you say a bit more about how you feel about that? Well, you know, going back to my high school years, you know, I felt insecure because I didn't look like my girlfriends that were tall, skinny, blonde. You know, I was short, dark hair, you know, some freckles across my nose, some big eyebrows. And until I went to the movie Love Story and saw Ali McGraw, who was so beautiful and looked kind of like me that I could see, okay, I could be different and be attractive. So I started to find people that looked like me. And so what does an insecure

girl do? She goes into the fashion industry and works with people with one name, Linda, Cindy, Christy. And that was my day-to-day existence. And I realized then I can't feel bad about who I am because of what they look like. And so I kind of started the Bobby Brown thing, telling people to feel good about exactly who you are, make yourself better, but appreciate your individuality. And I think now, and there was no social media, but now you look and you see everyone from a Kardashian to even Adele, like all these beautiful made made up with full glam teams. Of course, you could not feel good. But a lot of these people, you know, like Adele, you see everything. So you do understand what she feels and thinks. And I think for all of us, we all have to be

realistic and know what we're looking at. End of story. I wanted to ask your view, Bobby Brown, of a study that's just come out, which says that when women and men, and you will have seen these sorts of things before, but it doesn't seem to be getting better, speak for the same amount of time, the perception is still that women have spoken more. So the idea that we have penalties against us when we do raise our voice or speak. And we're still told that perhaps we're not likable when we do so. Some of those things you'll be very aware of. Some call it the dominance penalty. But I thought this particular study would be interesting to get your view on. I haven't seen the study, but none of it surprises me. I've been at corporate

meetings with, you know, men basically on one side of the table and women on the other, the women that run the brand on one side and the men on the other side. And I just remember sitting there watching the men sit back in their chair and speak slowly but loudly and less words. And I saw so many of my women, friends and partners that were sitting on the edge of their seat, trying to break in saying all these things. And it's not what they said, it's how. And I remember like after the meeting, like telling everybody, okay, just breathe, sit back. We're more emotional. And by the way, we are the better ones because guess what? We know how to do 15 things at once. We've, you know, had children

and we've worked while we're doing all these different things and men do one thing at a time. And yes, they were raised to be the power, but guess what? If you know what your real power is, and I'm saying this to all the young girls or all the women that are, you know, negotiating, talking to guys, sit back, breathe, listen to what they're saying. By the way, say, always start your conversation. I hear what you're saying, because that's what men want to hear. And then tell them what you think. Some wise words for people to pay heed to and also to listen to clearly. But do you think we still have to play those games? Can you see it getting any better? I don't think it's a game.

Be smarter than them. Be smarter than anyone. That's my advice. And sometimes it requires pushing back and just seeing what you're seeing and then figuring out what to do and not being so emotional. I love it.

One thing you're not stuck on, and I think it's an important question, how long can you keep your makeup for? Very basic question for you. Well, I mean, mascara, the experts say three months. I say six months. When it starts to smell, get rid of it. When it's dried out, get rid of it.

When makeup's broken, get rid of it. Our clean brand has a two-year shelf life. But of course, if you're someone that lives in a hot climate and you leave it in the car, it's going to spoil. That was Bobbi Brown speaking to Emma there. Can I share with you all that I've probably got eyeshadows that are about 15 years old, at least? If you want to get in touch to talk about how old your makeup is,

please do. Now, The Phantom of the Opera was first performed 35 years ago in London's West End. It's the second longest running musical here, the longest running show in Broadway history, and has been performed worldwide and seen by more than an estimated 130 million people in 145 cities across 27 countries. Them some stats. After COVID restrictions, it's just reopened at Her Majesty's Theatre

with Lucy St Louis playing the female lead. She's the first black woman to do so. Was it a part she always wanted? It was the one role in the West End in theatre that I've always wanted to play. And I never thought possible. Training at the age of 16 and in college and then leaving and starting my career in the profession, I never saw that this was an option for me. Specifically in casting, I realised very quickly that my hard work in training to perfect my voice in my acting and my dancing was not the biggest problem that I was

going to have to face the biggest problem that I was going to have to face was that people when I was in the audition rooms the main thing they would be looking at is the color of my skin and where I fit within the roles that they are casting. And I learned very early on that that was going to be my biggest hurdle and that I was different and that, you know, I wasn't necessarily going to be cast in roles that I wanted to be in. And this role was a role for me that I loved and adored. I loved the score. I loved the story. And I never thought possible, but I never, ever wanted to give up on it. I had many people over my career ask me like yourself,

what's your dream role to play? And I would always say Christine in The Phantom of the Opera. And I was always met most of the time with, will never have a black Christine they will never have someone of color or a black woman to play this role and for me hearing that was heartbreaking and it meant that I had a long way to go in to prove that I was worthy enough to be in this position. And it was the fact of what I looked like, which was stopping me. And it wasn't that I could not sing the role or act the role. It was what I looked like, which was stopping me. And that was something which I know as a Black performer, and I know many other women of colour and other Black performers in the industry, we have been met with that struggle a lot in our career.

And it has been something that has defined us, which we don't want that to be our defining moment. This shouldn't be the celebration of the first black woman to play this role. I should be just known as Lucy St. Louis playing the role of Christine and that should be celebrated enough. But because it's not happened in 35 years, it is such a monumental moment. Yeah, and I think a lot of people

couldn't agree almost more. And it's very, very important to have heard how you kind of got there in the way that you described that, that your expectations constantly being tempered. But that's why I also read out, you know, how much this play has been seen, you know, and how long it's been going and almost,

it shouldn't be a moment, but why it is a moment. And that in mind, and the fact that we haven't had theatre because of COVID restrictions, what was it like to open? Oh, it was the most magical moment of my career to date you know we have been starved of the arts for so long and our audiences needed us just as much as we needed them and to the opening this reopening this incredible monumental show was so special because I feel like this this show is part of the history of theatre if this show can come back and be here and present for our audiences then hopefully we are getting our industry back up and running again but to be in the position that I'm in and to feel so seen and accepted on my on my final bow on my

first opening on Tuesday was an overwhelming moment such a special moment that I I wish my younger self had seen well I so many will have done I mean that's the thing and it's so it's so lovely to have you on the programme. Thank you. And you have, we have some music from you and Cillian Donnelly. Lucy St. Louis, thank you so much for talking to us and taking us behind the scenes. Cillian, of course, plays the Phantom. You're in the lead female role playing Christine.

Here we are singing the Phantom of the Opera. In all your fantasies You always knew that man and mystery were both for you. Where night is blind The phantom of the old The brilliant Lucy St. Louis speaking to Emma there. I'm off to dig out some very old makeup from the back of my drawers. Have a lovely weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.