Woman's Hour - On Being Seen: Actor Constance Wu, Zara McDermott, Dr Jess Wade, filmmaker Gurinder Chadha & Bridgerton's Charithra Chandran

Episode Date: December 27, 2022

What does it mean when you are the first to 'be seen'? In 2018, Constance Wu received a Golden Globe Best Lead Actress nomination. She was the first Asian woman in 44 years to be named in the category for her historic role in Crazy Rich Asians, the first Hollywood film in 25 years to feature an all-Asian cast. After a tweet bemoaning the hit Chinese American sitcom Fresh Off The Boat, which launched her career, she was ‘cancelled’ by many from her own community. Wu talks to us about the pressures of representation and being seen.What is our responsibility in what we show people? Zara McDermott, social media influencer, former Love Island reality TV star and now filmmaker, talks to us about the responsibility we have in reflecting a balanced and authentic image of ourselves online. In Zara’s recent BBC Three documentary, Disordered Eating, she questions her responsibilities as a social media influencer.How can we help others be seen? Dr Jess Wade is a physicist from Imperial College London who creates wiki profiles for women in science. Wikipedia is the largest and most-read reference work in history, yet Jess says only 19 percent of profiles are of women. She tells us how and why she hopes to change that.What if you see yourself in someone but choose the path not taken? Rotherham listeners, Becky and her mum Jackie, discuss how they do and don’t see themselves in each other.If you met your hero, what would you say to them? An intergenerational conversation between two women who inspire each other: Gurinder Chadha is the Director of the landmark film Bend It Like Beckham which turned 20 this year, and Charitha Chandran plays Edwina Sharma in season two of the hit Netflix period drama Bridgerton.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Surya Elango

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now, what and who influences you? We've heard from many inspiring women all year on the programme and it got us wondering, do we need to see it to be it? We've heard stories of women who have broken new ground, like Una Marson, for example, the BBC's first black radio producer and presenter. To women who have shown extreme resilience by arming themselves to fight the Russian invasion in Ukraine.

To young female climate activists fighting for a better tomorrow. We've had such a wide range of women sharing their hopes, their dreams and their passions. I had a great chance to host a special edition of Woman's Hour earlier this year and I spoke to the England captain Leah Williamson after she led the Lionesses to that historic Euro 2022 win and I introduced her to one of the original Lionesses, Sue Wyatt, who played for England 50 years ago back in 1972 and the connection between the two when they got talking, despite not having ever met before, was beautiful. Oh, it was just the most amazing thing ever.

And Leah, thank you so much. You stopped us from being invisible as well. No, thank you. Thank you, because without you, we wouldn't be where we are. I'm welling up again. I can't help it. You're going to make me go. Oh, do you know, we wouldn't be where we are. I'm welling up again. I can't help it. You're going to make me go. Do you know, we were all in contact with each other still.

And we were texting like mad. And every one of us was crying. And some of us couldn't speak. Honestly, you wouldn't believe to see that. It was just amazing. And yeah, so thank you all the team for taking it this far and bringing it home, as I say. I thought I'd be able to speak and now I'm just so emotional.

Sue's in tears, Leah. I'm close to going, to be honest. I'm sorry, yes. But you're aware, aren't you, of the history and the women that have paved the way for you to be able to achieve this success? Yeah, that's why I say thank you to you because, like I say, we're playing catch-up

and right now we're in, you know, every year the game grows and we are in a better position than we were the year before. But for you guys to take that first step, to still have a passion for football, even after the ban was lifted, nobody would have blamed you to have left it behind

because of the way that you were treated and to go out, do what you did, to still, you know, the recognition failed you for so long. It's my responsibility. I stand on your shoulders. Without you, I wouldn't be where I was and the game certainly wouldn't be where it is. So you say thank you to me, but actually it's from me to you.

It really was such a heartfelt moment between the two of them. And it really made me realise the importance of being seen and paving the way, standing on the shoulders of those who have come before me to make it just that little bit easier for those coming up behind me. I'll be diving into the nuances of being seen over the next hour. How does it feel to be truly seen? How do we make others feel seen? How much responsibility do we have over how the world sees us? And even what happens when you see your mum or your dad in yourself? My first guest knows all about being seen.

Constance Wu was the first Asian-American woman in 44 years to be nominated for Best Lead Actress at the Golden Globes back in 2018. She was nominated after her starring role in box office hit Crazy Rich Asians, the first Hollywood film in 25 years to feature an all-Asian cast. Constance also starred in the landmark series Fresh Off the Boat, which was the first Asian-American family sitcom in 20 years. But when she expressed her disappointment on social media at the sitcom being renewed for another season back in 2019,

Constance endured a backlash that impacted her so badly, she considered taking her own life. Three years on, she's since returned to the public sphere, releasing a memoir called Making a Scene. We discuss the pressures of being seen, particularly when you're one of the first from an underrepresented community. Constance grew up with her parents, who immigrated from Taiwan. I caught up with Constance a little earlier

and asked her what her journey into acting was like. I think what really helped me deal with the everyday of being part of an underrepresented community in Hollywood as I was pursuing a career in Hollywood is actually my, honestly, my kind of ignorance about it at first. When you don't get a certain part in a movie or TV series or you're not considered for a part, you never blame it on your ethnicity or your race because it's just not something that occurs to you. It was, yeah, I was more likely to blame my talent

or lack thereof that I was considered or like not being tall enough or not being pretty enough or things like that. Um, and I think that helped me in a way because I wasn't entering the industry with a posture of racial defensiveness. That's not to say that racial biases did not exist unconsciously and that there wasn't structural and institutional racism, because there most certainly was. There's an episode of my TV show, Fresh Off the Boat, where the two kids want to, two of the kids want to be actors. And my character who plays the mother is like what you can't be an actor how many asian kids are there on tv like the parent in that episode pointed out the otherness of the kid my parents never pointed it out they would never be like oh

we're the only asians here oh you're the only asian in the show they just didn't it just wasn't part of the conversation i don't think it was even consciously. It's not like they were like, let's not talk about this. It just wasn't something that was extraordinary to them. So like, yeah, I didn't have it

in the forefront of my mind growing up. And I think that somewhat, I guess I would call it ignorance or unawareness, childhood unawareness, I think was helpful in my entering the industry without a posture of defensiveness. I think I more relate to being a woman in the industry because I do think I felt the constraints of misogyny and sexism in where I grew up. That was something that I came across a lot that I had trouble dealing with and was really tough being a woman.

Yeah. So when you see headlines back in 2018 as the first in 44 years to be nominated for Best Lead Actress for Crazy Rich Asians. When you see that headline then, and they've pointed out your race as something to be proud of, as a significant talking point, how did that make you feel? Well, yeah, I mean, I do need to delineate clearly that I definitely did feel othered because of race when I was in my 20s and I went to New York City. And then when things happened, like when Fresh Off the Boat

was like the first major American network show to be syndicated that starred an Asian American. Same thing with Crazy Rich Asians. Of course, I mean, there's no way to not understand and realize how important that representation piece is and how there was such a lack before and I had to uh educate myself on it a little bit because I didn't really know that much about it but um when I would go do press that's what I would be asked about

so I had to read a lot of stuff and talk to different people about it. I mean, there are so many things going on when it comes to fame, not just the racial element of it, but like the social element, the financial element, the emotional element, that it's hard to pinpoint any one thing having to do with any, you know, as causation for another thing. But it was very, I guess I would say noisy. And noisy in a way that you're not always able to hear your true self. And noise can be a lovely noise. I mean, there can be a lot of pride in that noise there can be a lot of education in that noise um but it becomes about the subject not about sort of your true center as a individual person it becomes about the crowd, the group, rather than you as a person.

And, you know, there's lovely things that happen in groups. You know, something simple as sports teams. Like, it's fun. It's fun to cheer for a sports team together and have camaraderie with other people. But it can get loud. And I think I took me a long time to learn how to differentiate that noise from the sound of sort of my own voice. And a lot of that noise in modern times comes from social media. So I'd like to ask you about your experiences on social media, because I know that they've been pretty significant for you,

particularly when you express your disappointment at your show, Fresh Off the Boat, being renewed for another series. You weren't happy about it, but not only were you not happy about it, you had to deal with this enormous backlash from everyone and from your own community as well. Tell me about that time.

Especially from my own community. Exactly especially from my own community exactly tell me why you think that backlash happened and and how it was for you during that time um i do think a big part of it is because i'm a woman and i think the inter Asian racism and misogyny is severe in a way that we don't talk about because the conversation on Asian American representation has been so hyper focused on positivity, positive representation rather than whole human representation, which I think that I, in those tweets where I was upset about the renewal, I showed a side of myself that wasn't positive, that wasn't graceful and lovely and grateful. It was a part that was, I guess a little bit, it was a moment of heat, a moment of passion that was unbridled, that was very human and normal, but wasn't positive. And I think that is a threat.

And also just wasn't lovely. It's not how we want to be represented. And I just think that's a big trap because if we only want to be represented as heroes or gracious, lovely beings, it's kind of like the model minority, but just like the other side of the same coin. Even if it's like we're always going to be cool. You want to be the superhero. Like you also want to be the person who has things that they're, you know. You want to be human. You want to be whole. That's real representation.

And I think there's that fear element of showing the uglier sides of ourselves. There's a big nuanced conversation that is not happening between people within the same underrepresented group. And I've never had fame on your level, Constance. Let me just say that first and foremost. But I can definitely relate to having to work within the fine constraints of what your community considers OK and acceptable yeah in the eyes of others and if you go outside of that the backlash from your own community my goodness me it it can be debilitating it's crazy not every asian family is the same so when you when you when that tweet came off when you posted that tweet um what happened what was the reaction what messages were you getting from people well um

mostly messages that were trying to shame me uh one in particular thought i should actually take my own life because i was um that much of a blight on the community um people saying like okay it's uh it's it's understandable that she didn't want to do this, but there was always a qualification. But she should have done it in a better way. She should have said it in a more palatable way. And like this, even the people who supported me censor tone at our most emotional points, I think that's another way of catering to white supremacy. Like still be the good girl. Still be the good Asian.

Don't be the one who starts a ruckus. And generally, I think that's right. Like I have a kid now. I don't want her to fly off the handle. I want her to teach, teach her, you know, self-regulation. But for me to have a moment like that once in my, at that point, what, six, seven years of fame, you know, that's pretty human. But I did have one moment and that was enough to, I guess, stain my reputation for all of eternity or reveal something horrible about me. But it was, as you say, one moment, but it led you to a very dark place, didn't it?

That message trying to shame me into taking my own life. You know, I did. I did try to. And I ended up in the hospital or in the emergency room. And ultimately it ended up being something that really was helpful because it made me recognize, you know, how close I was to dying and how I needed to step back and reconnect and get help. Because, you know, I, my first big project was a huge project. You know, it wasn't like I was like, slowly introduced to Hollywood. Like I didn't have any friends in the industry. I wasn't like a club girl going out, I had all these friends who were famous. I didn't have parents in the industry.

I didn't have models or resources to talk about how to deal with fame. And I hadn't had the time or given myself the time to do that. It's a different level of fame, isn't it, Constance? Because you're not just dealing with fame, you're dealing with fame within an underrepresented group who have put you on this pedestal to say you are the first you are our future yeah I definitely wasn't prepared for that I didn't even think about that like I said as I was a kid yeah it was a lot and I didn't have anybody resources that I used to talk to anybody about it um I was just sort of thrown into it. You know, a lot of people, they do have friends in the industry and I just didn't. My friends are like, you know, they're in business or they're accountants or they're teachers. Like, you know, my friends are not, you know, movie stars.

The whole theme of our program on Woman's Hour is uh see it to be it who inspires you who did you see that made you think i can do that too i guess when i was growing up there were no asian american like huge box office stars so i wasn't but i didn't think of it that way i just like like if i modeled my career after somebody would be like somebody white because those were like the main options. And I didn't see my race as a barrier. I'll say I recently saw a movie where I was like, oh, that's the kind of work I want to do. That, I don't know if I'm ever going to be as good as she is, but this is the kind of actor I want to be.

Which was, I saw a movie called Good Luck, Leo Grande starring Emma Thompson. And the work that she did in that movie, like what that movie was saying, how it said it, her performance in it. That is my pinnacle of the type of like career and a lot of what she's done, Emma Thompson. But but yeah, that movie, I was like, yes, that's the kind of actor I want to be, which some people are like, oh, no, don't you want to be a glamorous, beautiful movie star? And I'm like, no, like her in that movie. That's the kind of work deep, brave, dynamic, interesting, vulnerable, real. Like, because I think she should win the Oscar for this year because she, God, she's so terrific in that movie. Like on every level, there's just no, oh, she's so good.

I can't stop talking about it. She's a phenomenal actor and a national treasure over here. So you've obviously mentioned someone who isn't Asian American. So representation is not in your current thinking here um so yeah you've obviously mentioned someone who is an asian american so yeah i know representation is is not in your current thinking when you think about the work that you want to do now it's it's not about representation i think female representation is what it's about and if you mention that movie good luck leo grant with emma thompson that is true female representation in terms of like that is a whole human woman who is not perfectly young and beautiful, but who has sexual desires, who has conflicts from her past, who has to face her own prejudices from her past. This is, yeah, in terms of representation, representing whole human women.

I think that is what I am looking and seeking to do. Actor Constance Wu there on the pressures of being seen. Now, when we are seen, how much responsibility do we have for what people see of us? Zara McDermott is a former Love Island reality TV star and social media influencer with a following of more than two million on Instagram and TikTok. She's now also a documentary maker. Zahra has investigated the impact of influencers' social media posts on young people struggling with eating disorders. She reflects on how her own social media posts might

have a negative impact on young people's body image and mental health and what responsibility she has for that. Zahra, thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Hour. Great to have you with us. So what made you want to make this documentary? This documentary for me was about 18 months in the making. So I came out of Love Island in 2018, and I was just hit with an influx of social media followers. It's not something that I necessarily really understood

the sheer kind of impact of and really expected all that much of um I think once you go through an experience where you go from being you know I was a very very normal girl and I went from being a normal girl with a very private life to someone who had a large following on social media that was ever growing. And I don't think that I truly realized how much of an influence I could have on other people. I think that, you know, I saw the numbers on a screen and shared my life, shared my journey, shared my fitness journey and, you know, all the things I would eat in a day, what I do in a day, just share everything really as I thought I should and felt like I needed to. And I didn't actually realize the impact that this can have on other

people and the responsibility that so many social media influencers like me have. You know, I'm just a drop in the ocean. I know that there's many people with more followers than me, but I just wanted to look into this topic and see where is there this misunderstanding of what influencers should be putting out there compared to what people need and want to see. Yeah, there seems to be this disconnect, doesn't there, between what we see online and the fact that we can just, you know, double click and it turns into a like and that disconnect between doing that and what happens in the real world but you think there's a real connection between what people see on these social media apps and to how that affects them in the real world yeah absolutely um i think that people can actually want to see content that is quite damaging. So, for example, you know, time and time again, people will ask me a lot of things about, you know, how to lose weight, how to appear a certain way, what they can do to change themselves. Actually, you know, this content is so easily accessible online and people want it. But I don't think that people truly understand how much damage having so much access to content like that, how damaging that can be. And how damaging is it? What have you seen? So many people are suffering from disordered eating and eating disorders.

Eating disorders are at a record high. They, I think, virtually doubled since COVID. Hospital admissions were just through the roof since, especially since the pandemic. You know, everyone was online on their phones, getting fit, getting healthy, looking at what everyone else is doing around them. And, you know, sadly, that's resulted in an epidemic in itself of eating disorders. But I mean, this social media issue that we're discussing is compounded by reality TV shows. You've been there yourself on Love Island where, you know, as you've said, how you look is often currency. So how much responsibility does reality TV take for all

this and the fact that so many young people are dealing with disordered eating do you know what my opinion on this may be controversial but I enjoy reality tv I like the sexiness I like seeing women feel confident in themselves walking around in a bikini like I find it empowering I like reality tv I enjoy it for that sexy youthful element um so I don't necessarily think that reality tv has a responsibility I think the responsibility is when you actually have a platform like to be able to really have ownership over yourself which is when you come out of something like love island that's when you can really you know talk about your morals your principles and and do good things and do good work. Reality television is a very small factor and part and experience of someone's life. And I would never want to take that away from someone and demand that it be changed because I actually really, I personally enjoy it for what it is.

How did your opinion of what you had posted yourself change over the course of filming this documentary? People don't just value you on how you look, your aesthetics. I think that we live in a world now that is so based on how you look and the clothes you wear. And actually, it's about who you are a lot more. I'm not saying that no one's ever allowed to post a picture of them looking nice on a beach ever again. I'm not saying that. But I think that social media just needs to become a lot more balanced and that's something that I've tried to do you know I'm I'm trying a lot more to to show the ups and the downs and and just show more of my life as as it actually is rather

than constantly trying to put my best foot forward. And how difficult is that for you to to break away from what you're so used to doing? I think at first, when you've only posted the most perfect photos and shared the most perfect days, and you get into a habit where you think that you shouldn't show the other side of things. But actually, people nowadays more than ever want to see the reality. They want to, they look on social media because they want to relate to you and they want to be able to put themselves in your shoes they don't actually want to be looking at you and thinking god like I now feel terrible about myself from looking at your social media because you know you're doing all these things and how are you managing to eat that well and exercise

and do all of these things but actually that social media is actually not reflective of most people's realities or anyone's realities to that matter and now when you take a selfie Zara and you look at the selfie you think oh it's not the best angle it's not the best lighting will you still post that selfie or yeah yeah you're even though it's not perfect and you're not completely happy with it absolutely um I think that those days are gone of trying to take a million photos just to get the one I think we have to accept ourselves for how we look that's something I'm definitely learning myself I can I can attest to that

now the theme of the program on Women's Hour today is see it to believe it see it to be it so we're asking all of our guests, has there ever been a time where you've seen someone, been influenced by someone that's made you feel like you can do it too? Do you know what? The main person who's always inspired me is actually my mum. And I know that's cliche to say, but I think that when someone knows you

inside out so well and is so proud of you and is always reassuring you that is all I need to hear and see to feel empowered and inspired to be like the best version of myself and I think that one thing I will say about you know just life in general is that so many people are so scared to make mistakes. Everyone nowadays is so fearful of making a mistake and holding their hands and being like, oh, I didn't quite know that. But now I do and I've learned something. And she's always taught me that, like, it's OK to make mistakes and and learn things and go on journeys. And that's why, you know, making this Disordered Eating documentary was so important to me because I wanted to take that kind of ethos with me and move through my career being able to say, you know,

I'm happy to learn. I'm open to learning. And so I would say that you don't even have to see it to believe it, but you have to feel empowered and brought up by those around you to be the best version of yourself. Thank you, Zara. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. That was the social media influencer and filmmaker Zara McDermott. Clearly, social media plays a key part in being seen. But what about the time before Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and TikTok?

Wikipedia launched in 2001. It's a free online multilingual encyclopedia and it's written and maintained by a community of volunteers known as Wikipedians. It's the largest and most read reference work in history. And as of 2022, it's ranked as the fifth most popular site in the world. But it also has a gender bias. Only 19% of the profiles that we can see on Wikipedia are of women. Earlier, I posed the question, how do you help others to be seen? Well, Dr. Jess Wade is a physicist from Imperial College London. She's also a Wikipedian. And for the last few years, she spent her evenings after work creating wiki pages for women in science. Thank you for joining us, Jess. I mentioned the gender bias. Is that what prompted you to do this? Yeah, I guess it is what prompted me to do this. You know, I definitely wanted to tell the story

of remarkable women scientists and scientists from other historically excluded groups. I wanted to kind of put their story on a platform that everyone was reading. And, you know, you said it's the fifth most popular website in the world. But I think the kind of beautiful thing about Wikipedia is everyone in society uses it, you know, parents, teachers, kids, policymakers, journalists, scientists themselves. So I definitely, I definitely wanted to get women seen. And I wanted to do that part of kind of exciting and inspiring a new generation of scientists as well. I want them to log on and to be scrolling through the internet and to think, hey, she looks just like me, or she

went to school where I did and look at what she did to change the world. So see, there was definitely an element of that. Yeah, it's a very popular site. I mean, you could have gone with social media, though you could have put these profiles and, and used, I suppose, the enormous reach of social media platforms. Yeah, to spread this word, but you've you've chosen Wikipedia. I think it's kind of critical that that women's stories are told and women's contributions are documented on platforms where we document men's, you know, if I'm looking at a history book, a kind of history book that's written before, I don't know, the past five or 10 years, it's mainly written by a man about other men.

And Wikipedia is really our platform and our opportunity to change that. You know, we choose what we document and we choose what's important. And hey, I think that the contributions of women scientists and their discoveries and the way that they've changed each and every one of our lives is critical to document in those places as well. So I want their stories in places that everyone's reading them, not just on a social media platform where maybe a select few of the population look. So what was the first profile you created?

The first profile I created was an incredible climate scientist, a woman called Kim Cobb. She's now a professor at Brown University. She's one of these absolutely phenomenal climate researchers who does a huge amount of kind of experimental fieldwork, goes out on ocean missions and collects kind of corals and ice cores and looks at their chemistry and tries to work out how humans have impacted climate change. She's hugely involved in kind of policy and advocacy and also on trying to transform science so it's a more equitable and inclusive space. And I'd read her work. I saw her talk. I looked her up on a search engine, realized she didn't have a Wikipedia page and thought someone needs to put that together and then just kind of got addicted you know I thought Kim's story is fantastic but actually

there are so many phenomenal women scientists phenomenal engineers of color phenomenal people from all of these different backgrounds whose whose story hasn't been told and I can do something about that there are so many women break it down for us in terms of numbers because I mentioned that gender bias of just 19 percent of of profiles on Wikipedia are of women. So how many is that? Oh, gosh, I think there's about probably about two and a half million biographies on English language Wikipedia. I think the kind of interesting thing is it's not it's not unique to English language Wikipedia. English language is by far the biggest. But when you look at pretty much any language Wikipedia, there's a considerable gender bias. So part of that is about how society

celebrates these incredible people from historically excluded groups. You know, Wikipedia isn't a primary source, I have to collect references when I'm writing these biographies. So who's written about these people before? Where are their stories documented? But also, it reflects the diversity of the types of people who edit Wikipedia. So if you've got a population of editors, whether that's on German language, Wikipedia, English language, Wikipedia, French, you name it. And that's incredibly non-diverse. Then that reflects the content that's on there, too. So part of it is me writing these Wikipedia pages and kind of, you know, trying to excite other people to write Wikipedia pages, too. But the other part of it is that we really, really need as a society to do better, to honour women, whether that's in awards, whether that's in fellowships, whether that's covering their stories in newspapers, whether that's inviting them onto radio programmes like this, so that then I can go and write their Wikipedia pages.

Hence why a programme like Woman's Hour exists and is still very much relevant. You've written profiles of women that have been taken down. Is that right? Why? I think, you know, certainly at first I thought everyone I'm impressed by should be on Wikipedia. And then it was like a learning curve to realise that actually, you know, it's a general interest in encyclopedia, they have to fulfil some kind of notability criteria to be on there. Unfortunately, the way that very much tied into how society views them in the first place, which is skewed towards. Exactly. And if you're taking something like an academic or a scientist, the way that we define success in academia is very skewed towards white Western men. You know, it's the big grants they brought in.

It's whether they hold a prestigious chair in a learned society or a university. It's the number of awards they've won. So, you know, alongside this Wikipedia editing, I have to have this side hustle of nominating more women and particularly women of colour for awards in science and engineering because they're really not getting that recognition. But at the beginning of my wiki journey, I was getting a bit too enthusiastic. So sometimes I got a little flag saying this is a little too soon. You know, this Wikipedia biography is going up too early.

Sometimes it was because I came on radio shows and I said, you know, other Wikipedia editors are pretty sexist and racist. And then other Wikipedia editors are like, oh, no, I'm going to take her pages down. But actually, I've surpassed 1,800 biographies now. You've written 1,800? Yeah, so that's a huge milestone for me. But out of that, only about 15 have been deleted. And out of that 15, about seven of them have been recreated. So you

know, it's not it's not a huge number. And it's not that all other Wikipedia editors are out to out to get anyone who does get on the site. It's really that my job, anyone's job as a Wikipedia contributor or someone writing books needs that source material. So we don't only need to celebrate these women on platforms like Wikipedia, we need them to be written about and spoken about. We need them to be on our televisions and on our radios. And so that I don't fight face those challenges. 1800 you've written, I can't get over that. So I imagine you have to have, as well as your own personal knowledge, you have to fact check, you have to cross reference. How long, how many hours have you put into those 1800 profiles? and doing research and hanging out with all some other scientists. And then I get home, I look after my small dog, I have some dinner, and then I edit Wikipedia. But you know, I found it like, it sounds like it's this incredibly time, a huge time commitment, but it's such an inspiring thing to do, you know, every night, I love learning, and you love learning. And I love learning about science. And that's why I'm a scientist and every night I get to get home and kind of discover this new area of science

or a new university or a part of the world that I've never been to or thought about before or a new scientific technique or really think about the kind of journey that someone might have had to have around the world to be able to do the research that they love and that's so inspiring and then seeing the way that people respond

to a Wikipedia page is so inspiring. You know, it's not a static thing. It's not like a page of a historical encyclopedia that gets printed and then that's it, that's done. I put a biography on Wikipedia, someone may translate it into a different language, someone else may expand a huge section, someone may add a photograph, you know, they're dynamic living biographies. And I love that. And then, and then, you know, a few months after I put it online, that person may receive recognition in another place. And then I have to go and update it and put, oh, and so and so won this award. And I love that part of it, too. You know, I love now when I look at BBC's top 100 women list, or who's speaking at a huge conference or who's just been made a fellow of a prestigious society and seeing names that I recognize and thinking like, hey, I wrote their Wikipedia page. Like it's, it's, it's, it's, I absolutely love getting people recognition for the incredible things they've done. And I wouldn't have it any other way. There's no point in me doing science

if I'm just going to publish it behind some paywall and And the people who, you know, the society whose taxpayer money contributed to us being able to do it never get the chance to see it. So actually, I feel like academics have a responsibility to communicate their science and their discoveries with other people. Wikipedia is an extraordinarily cost-effective platform for doing that on. So usually I'm trying to get academics excited, not only to kind of tackle this gender gap or other biases on Wikipedia, but also because I think science is critical.

It's massively important that we get society on board with it. And this is one really easy way to do it. Do you have your own Wikipedia page? I do, but I never look at it out of a huge embarrassment. You didn't write it then? I did not write it. You cannot write your own Wikipedia page. It's like wiki rule number one is

don't write about yourself and don't write about anyone that you love or pays your salary or that you hate because you you can't be neutral about those people wikipedia requires neutrality or else it wouldn't be that incredible and useful encyclopedia it is i was inspired to go and write my own profile no don't we can do that somewhere else another Another social media platform. So as you know, we're talking about who people are inspired by. See it to be it. So who is it that inspires you? Oh, my gosh. OK. Can I cheat and say two people? Go on. I guess my absolute number one, like probably all of your other guests, is my mother. She's a phenomenal woman and she's she you know she's an academic psychiatrist when I was growing up I don't think I really appreciated quite how phenomenal

it was to have a mum who was who was an academic I'd kind of phone her when I was at school and mobile phones had just come in and I'd be like oh I've left my geography homework at home and and should have you know been seeing patients or doing extraordinary things researching facial pain so obviously my mother is a huge inspiration in but also that the head of head of materials imperial is a phenomenal woman and professor sandrine hoyt she had our entire research group over to her house her house for christmas dinner and cooked us all christmas dinner a term in to being head of department i love being inspired by people like that because she's not only an extraordinarily exceptional scientist and brilliant mind, but she's saying this is how I'm going to do leadership and I'm going to make sure that people whose voices have been historically excluded are heard. I'm going to send to the students and the early career people because they're who's important for the science of tomorrow.

And I think I think if I hadn't ended up in this department and particularly being mentored by her, there's no way I'd be the scientist I am. Clearly. And you've taken what you've seen from them and absolutely run with it because you're doing some incredible work yourself. Dr. Jess Wade, it's been a pleasure to have you on the programme.

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Now we're talking about the importance of being seen in this programme. Still to come, the Bridgerton actor Charithra Chandran in conversation with her hero, the filmmaker Gurinder Chadha. But first, let's go up to Yorkshire, shall we?

We've already heard a couple of our guests so far tell us about seeing themselves in their mothers. Well, two listeners got in touch with us. They are mum Jackie and daughter Rebecca from Rotherham in South Yorkshire. They can certainly relate to seeing themselves in each other, but it hasn't always been that way. Great to have you on Woman's Hour, Rebecca and Jackie. Rebecca, your mum describes herself as a workaholic, but you yourself decided that you perhaps wanted to follow a different route career-wise is that is that fair to say yeah definitely um

I mean when I when I went into my career firstly I started off in working for a big commercial organization multi-million pound business um and I think I started off as a bit of a workaholic I followed in my mum's footsteps and I watched my mum and I kind of thought to myself I don't want that life anymore um and I resigned from that organization like my mum I went into the charity sector and I now work for a charity um but I think I have a much better work-life balance than my mum would you agree absolutely yeah because I suppose sometimes you know when we talk about being seen the people who influence us sometimes we decide that we don't want to emulate those people and the people that we've grown up with Jackie would you describe

yourself as a workaholic and were you disappointed when perhaps your daughter didn't follow in uh your footsteps in being career-minded um yeah i think i am a workaholic i think what it is you're just passionate you get passionate about something you just want to do it and do more of it and you don't really have a cut off in terms of what those opportunities are um and actually i feel very proud of very proud of Becky because she's following a passion, she's following a dream. But what she's actually saying is, I'm not going to let it take over my life. I mean, I was a single parent for a while as well.

So, you know, sometimes I have different demands that you've got to go out and you've got to earn a living. And then that just takes over. And the jobs that I had, I've never really felt like jobs. They felt very passionate about it. And so it's felt as though I'd been learning and developing as I've never really felt like jobs they felt I'm very passionate about it and so it's felt as though I've been learning and developing as I've been following a career it's not that I've just suddenly said I want to do this I want to do that and I want to be this

it's just that's very interesting I'll have a go at that and I'm learning from that and I'm learning from that um but I I respect Becky um in terms of a you know a calmness actually and a being a little bit more rational as opposed to thinking oh I'll have a go at that and I'll have a go at that um so no no I'm very very proud of her really very very proud of her and she's now got a daughter um who's six months old and so she's now got that responsibility and to pass on those things to her daughter as well and you have been an inspiration to me absolutely mean, you've passed on some wonderful core values that will be with me for the rest of my life. And I hope to pass them values on to my daughter. And not just about being a workaholic, but the way you're respectful and you're non-judgmental.

You're always open minded. And I think it's been mentioned earlier in the show about mums how much they reassure us they're always proud of us even when I've done things in my life that I've not been proud of or I've kind of thought I've made the wrong decision there you've always kind of reassured me that I have made the right decision um and there's many things about you that are very inspiring to me so I don't want you to think just because you're sat next to me. I'm not just saying this, but you are the inspiration. Yeah, I'll get you later, babe. How do you feel hearing that, Jackie? It's lovely to hear, isn't it, to hear from your daughters.

And I was just thinking about, you know, you're talking about social media. When I was growing up, we only had four TV stations. We didn't have social media. We didn't have the internet. And our role models, even though we never called them role models, but they're just ordinary people that you saw in your life, you know, your teachers, people at work, your parents and I think, you know, as adults we have a responsibility to actually think about the values that we're passing on to other people,

it's almost like our value legacy. And I once thought about really what my parents passed on to me in a virtual way. And there was three things which I think they gave me without realizing it. And I've sort of adopted those things. And this is a Yorkshire saying, I hope you can understand it. You don't get out for notes, you work hard for a living.

So basically you've got to work hard. The other one was treat everybody as you expect to be treated yourself and a liar is as good as a thief and when I look back of all the decisions and the things in my life that I've done I think those three things have influenced who I've become today and it made me really realize that as adults um we have a responsibility, you know, what we show. You're talking about what you're seeing, what we show. And it's not just what you look like. It's the way that you behave.

It's the way that you treat people. It's all those softer things, but equally important, not just how you look. And I do think, to be honest, I feel quite, I'm glad I'm not growing up in this world now, because I do think there's so much pressure on people, you know, to be honest I feel quite I'm glad I'm not growing up in this world now because I do think there's so much pressure on people you know to be a certain way and I think what we do forget it was lovely to hear Zara saying now she's come back around and she's realized the heart of who she is is is is really the most important thing. Advice for life um thank you for your wise words Rebecca

and Jackie and it's beautiful to see the relationship that's blossomed between the two of you over the years thank you for sharing it with us. Thank you. Thank you. Now, my final two guests really epitomise the phrase, see it to be it. Bridgerton actress Charithra Chandran got the chance to meet her hero, the writer and director, Gurinder Chadha. Charithra was a huge fan of Gurinder's groundbreaking film Bend It Like Beckham when it was released 20 years ago with a young seat girl as one of the film's main protagonists. It was a landmark moment for South Asian representation in British TV. Two decades on and Charithra has been part of her own seminal moment for South Asian representation as part of

the Sharma family in period drama Bridgerton. Tarifra plays breakout character Edwina Sharma, who is named the Queen's Diamond of the Season, the town of Bridgerton's most coveted jewel. And as you can imagine, there was a lot for these two pioneering women to talk about when they met to discuss being seen, representation and breaking boundaries. I'm Tarifra Chandran. I'm an actor. You've probably last seen me on a show called Bridgton and I was lucky enough to play Edwina Sharma. Hi, I'm Gurinder Chadha, writer, director,

producer of movies. You know, movies. So we first met months ago at an industry event and you know I think we were probably the only South Asian women in the room. Yes. And we sort of gravitated towards each other. There was a lot of the great and the good of the industry there and I saw you across the room and I said oh that's the young lady in Bridgerton. I mean for me I think I was a bit shell-shocked because you sort of framed how I viewed myself growing up, which is, you know, a big influence on my life. And there I am just right in front of you talking to you, which was mad. Do you think about the legacy of your work

and how much it has influenced South Asian women, particularly in the UK. Bender Like Beckham was a hit because everybody related to that film. And what I was able to do was show the world what Britain is like for me and for us. Certainly for me when I made End of Light Beckham I totally identified with Jess Bumrah. I was Jess and I relived my whole childhood with my parents, how I kept trying to sort of bend the rules and and duck and dive to do what I wanted you know and those two were definitely based on my parents, the parents. But now, 20 years on, I really identify with the mother, with my 15-year-old daughter, who says,

when can I start wearing crop tops in front of boys? And I'm like, oh, and the shackles rise. And I'm like, no more crop tops, you know. So, yeah, I mean, that's the amazing thing about film is that it lasts forever. the shackles rise and I'm like, no more crop tops. So yeah, I mean, that's the amazing thing about film is that it lasts forever. I grew up in a fairly white area. I didn't see many people that looked like me, that I think I was one of two Asian kids in my school.

And so I think a lot of the issues that members of the diaspora go through, I felt like I was the only one experiencing it. So watching Bend It Like Beckham and seeing all these characters have the same thoughts and the same conversations I was having with myself, I felt less lonely about it all. And I even think about your casting. I mean, I love Bollywood movies and I really enjoy them. But even in Bollywood movies, I never saw anybody that really looked like me with my skin tone. And so in Bend It Like Beckham, all of these beautiful women that had the same skin color as me.

It's the first time that I felt like I genuinely felt seen in media, including media in India. Well, that's amazing. I want to tell you two things. When Bend It Like Beckham came out, there were three important things actually that I think sum up how important this discussion is. The first is when I made the film, before it was a hit, I had a screening up in Manchester and I went up on the train and I got a message to say that it's so popular that they've had to open a second screen in the multiplex because they're going to have to show it in two cinemas. So I was like, oh my God, the Asian community has come out in force. That's amazing when I got there though there were hardly any Asians in the audience it was all Mancunians and obviously because of David Beckham right and

I was I was like amazed at that actually because I had in my head seen it as an Asian film at that point and so that was mind-blowing for me but then afterwards I will never forget this lady it was a very significant part of my career in my life afterwards this English woman came up to me and she was blonde and she had white white trousers white shirt and white stilettos. She came up to me and she'd been crying. And she said to me, you know, you don't realize what you've done. You know, you think you've made a comedy, she said,

but what you've shown us for people who live around here after what's been happening. And she was referring to the Oldham riots that had been happening a couple of years previously where the local Pakistani community and the white community there had been clashes you know because there's so much unemployment and poverty and all the rest of it and she was referring to Oldham riots and she said you know what you showed us is that everyone wants the best for their kids and everyone's gonna fight for their kids.

And I was like, oh my God, if I never make another film in my life, just hearing that woman say that to me in that way is like, what an achievement that I set out to challenge racism and sexism and how we were depicted in the media. And for that woman to say that to me that was amazing and then my final story which i think really rounds it all up is uh when i was in la and

i had i was pregnant with my twins i i just conceived them actually and I was in the clinic and getting checked up and everything and there was another doctor there not my doctor and She said do you mind if I come in and talk to you and I was all sitting there all you know getting ready to be You know have the scan and everything And I said no sure and she said I wanted to tell you that when I had my daughter, I went into the delivery screen because I wanted her to come into the world within a space that was full of love and so she played the movie as she came back. I was a little bit like okay TMI but then I thought well I am in California and that is a very California thing but then I went to it, thought about it and

thought what an absolutely beautiful thing for her to say to me, you know, and, and, and I'm so pleased that the impact of it has been so wide. If you were making Bend It Like Beckham in 2022, do you think you would change anything? Do you think the pressure is off a little bit that we now have more representation thanks to your work? Or do you feel like, no, you still kind of face the same questions and issues within the industry?

Sadly, I don't really want to say this, but it is true. If you put Indian characters in the lead of films, it's still really hard to get your films financed. No one will say, oh no we're not going to do it because there are Indian leads, but people will say we don't know if it's commercial enough, you know, or it's not quite what we want to do right now. So, Charithra, tell me about your journey. I know you were one of the dancers in Eternals, doing a bit of Bollywood right there. Yes. And then suddenly you land this amazing part in such a popular show by the irrefutably amazing Shonda Rhimes in Bridgerton.

So how was that? That popular as Bridgerton is. Because you feel like, especially with season one being such a hit, I think I was really worried that if season two wasn't as big a hit as season one, then it would be my fault. And you then worry about the repercussions of, oh my goodness, have I compromised other brown characters being included in scripts, et cetera, et cetera. Which, you know, is a burden that I put on myself. I don't know if necessarily if anyone else put it on me. But I was, I think when I actually got to set, I was just playing a character. I wasn't necessarily thinking on a day-to-day basis, oh, you know, this is going to be representing so many brown women across the world.

There would be moments, you know, in like the Haldi scene and when we'd refer to things that are very noticeably Indian that I'd remember but I think I was in an environment where I was given the freedom just to be an individual with their own flaws their own gifts and I think what's really interesting is often people would say to Simone and I you know you guys are the first time we've seen this etc etc and I really dispute. I am so aware that I stand on the shoulders of giants, people like you and Mira and Deepa and Parminder and Archie, just to name a few individuals who fought the good fight and who've worked so hard so that we could be in a position where we're leading a massive Netflix juggernaut. It's amazing, you know, I think that you being in Bridgerton, you know, with Simone, I think that was a game changer.

Just watch with my kids. It's interesting to see you in Bridgerton. It's not a big deal for them. They're like, oh, OK, you know, because for them it's normal. That was a very candid chat between Bridgerton star Charithra Chandran and writer and director Gurinder Chadha in conversation, talking about seeing themselves in each other. What a brilliant moment.

There's been so many interesting conversations on the programme this morning about being seen. I've really hoped you've enjoyed it. And remember, seeing is believing. BBC Sounds. Music, seeing is believing. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.