Woman's Hour - On Weekend Woman’s Hour: Kate Bush, Olivia Harrison, Amanda Blanc, Althea Gibson, frozen embryos and women in comedy

Episode Date: June 25, 2022

In a world exclusive, Kate Bush speaks to Emma Barnett about being discovered by a new generation and making it to number 1 in the UK singles charts 44 years after her first chart-topper Wuthering Heights. Running Up That Hill was first released in 1985 and its use in the Netflix hit series Stranger Things has made Kate Bush a social media and streaming sensation. The physical and emotional challenges of in vitro fertilisation, or IVF, never fade from your memory - whatever the outcome. But what happens when you have been lucky enough to have a child or children and you still have frozen embryos in storage you are sure you will not use? You can donate to another couple in need, to science, let them be discarded or continue to preserve them. Alison Murdoch, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at Newcastle University and two women who have faced this join Emma.The comedians Katherine Ryan and Sara Pascoe have been making headlines in recent weeks following comments they made on Katherine’s new TV show. Both revealed instances when they’ve worked with men they believe to be predatory and despite complaining these men have not been reprimanded. Emma is joined by Kathryn Roberts who quit comedy because of her experiences and also by Chloe Petts who will be performing her show Transience at the Edinburgh Fringe this summer.Olivia Harrison has penned a book of poetry called "Came the Lightening" to celebrate her husband, George Harrison's life, more than twenty years after his death.. As lead guitarist of The Beatles, his most famous songs included While My Guitar Gently Weeps, and Here Comes the Sun. What prompted her to share her memories in poetry? She tells Emma. As Wimbledon is set to begin on Monday, we discover the story behind Althea Gibson the first Black woman to win Wimbledon in 1957 and 1958. Writer and performer Kemi-Bo Jacobs was so inspired by her that she has written a one-woman play, 'All White Everything But Me' about her. She joins Anita to tell her more.The Treasury's Women in Finance Charter has published its annual review looking at gender diversity within the financial sector in the UK for 2021. Amanda Blanc is CEO of Aviva, the UK’s leading insurer and leads the Women in Finance Charter and speaks to Emma about the review as well as her experiences of sexism as one of a handful of female FTSE 100 bosses.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour where we bring you the must-hear interviews from the week just gone and what a show for you we have today. Coming up, a world exclusive. We speak to Kate Bush about her new generation of fans. We talk about what women do with frozen embryos when they're no longer going to use them. And Olivia Harrison, wife of Beatle George, tells us about her new collection of poems in memory of her late husband.

Now, I won't keep you waiting too long. The world exclusive interview I mentioned. Kate Bush has suddenly found she has a whole new generation of fans, a lot of them in their teens and twenties, because of the use of her song Running Up That Hill in Netflix show Stranger Things, which is set in the 80s. Emma spoke to Kate on the good old fashioned landline and started by asking her how she was feeling

about reaching number one with Running Up That Hill 37 years on. It's just extraordinary. I mean, you know, it's such a great series, I thought that the track would get some attention. But I just never imagined that it would be anything like this. It's so exciting, but it's quite shocking really, isn't it? I mean, the whole world's gone mad well

i mean you know 37 years is the longest time i believe it's a song has taken to get to number one and it's also in america it's your first ever top 10 hit in the us which i didn't know yeah yeah i mean it's what's really wonderful i think is that this is a whole new audience who you know in a lot of cases they've never heard of me. And I love that. The thought of all these really young people hearing the song for the first time and discovering it is, well, I think it's very special. It's a discovery by a new generation. There's lots of people, of course, who have held you dear to their hearts for a long time, who are probably feeling quite protective at the moment, especially when some of their children are saying have you heard of kate bush they're saying uh yes very much so um but but but in terms of this song and for those new audience members for those

people discovering you now what's it actually about running up that hill if you were to explain it to a new audience well you know I really like people to hear a song and take from it what they want. But originally it was written as the idea of really swapping, a man and a woman swapping places with each other just to feel what it was like from the other side. Yes, and getting that experience. Yeah.

If that was possible. And it wasn't originally called Running Up That Hill, was it? No, it was called A Deal With God. I think they were just worried, the record company were worried that it wouldn't get played on the radio, that people would feel it was a sensitive title. Right. So is that still how you think of it, as opposed to Running Up That Hill?

Because when you've originally named something, and these are all your creations, you can stay wedded to it, can't you? Well, yes and no. But some of them have had very strange titles that you kind of have a working title that you quickly forget. But yeah, I think for me, this is still called A Deal With God. Now, lots more people, new people as well, getting into the song. I mean, it's so widely listened to across social media platforms as well, never mind streaming platforms. Have you listened to it again with new ears? Do you listen back to it?

I never listen to my old stuff. But then, you know, when things like this come along, I'm normally involved in something like, you know, maybe doing an edit or revisiting the track for some kind of other reason I'm working on it so yeah I hadn't heard it for a really long time yeah well I was imagining you know people also watching the video for the first time it's such a beautiful video you've of course trained as a as a dancer with movement and all of that it's it's just wonderful people for people to to see again of course, trained as a dancer with movement and all of that. It's just wonderful for people to see again.

Of course, in this context with Stranger Things, which I know you obviously signed off on how the song was going to be used, was it important for you that it's a song that helps a female character, that it helps Max? I think they've put it in a really special place. I mean, the Duffer Brothers created the series and actually we watched it right from the word go with the first series onwards.

So I was already familiar with the series. You're already a fan at this point. Yes, yes, very much so, yeah. And I thought what a lovely way for the song to be used in such a positive way, you know, as a kind of talisman almost really for Max. And yeah, I think it's very touching, actually. Yes. And of course, people, especially when they're younger, music does save people, doesn't

it? It's so important to people. And that's at the heart of how the song is used. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they have really put it in a very special place. And I think music is very special. It's different from all other art forms, isn't it, in a way? I mean, all art forms sit in their own space, but music has a way of touching people. Yes, and you'll always remember actually where you were when you heard something or what it means to you. I mean, I was also thinking when I was wondering about why you signed off on it why you were drawn to Stranger Things

but interesting to hear you're a fan you know is it also is there a nostalgia there as well for the 80s a lot of people loving the show love the fact that it's it's set in that era yeah I think it was a great time I mean there was some great music in the 80s but I think I think it was a great time. I mean, there was some great music in the 80s, but I think it's an incredibly exciting time we're in now. I mean, okay, so it's an awful time on a lot of levels for people, very difficult. But it's also a time when incredible things are happening. Technology is progressing at this incredible rate that's pretty overwhelming, really. But, you know, there's so many advances in medicine. There are positive things. You just have to look a bit harder to find them at the moment, I think. Well, I mean, if we're just looking at the technology and you, I mean, running up that hill as a hashtag is all over social media platforms. On TikTok, running up that hill has had more than 616 million views. And you were always very cutting edge with technology.

It was almost like you were waiting some of the time for the technology to catch up. Well, that's very nice of you to say, sir. I mean, I suppose, you know, I was using things like the Fairlight very early, which was a sampling machine, which of course now it's very, it's common now for that samples to be used in music all the time.

Yes, but then it was not as a synthesizer in a way to make music. Well, it's fascinating to think about, but I was also wondering if you missed the 80s because there were a lack of phones then. And when you did your concerts in 2014, you did ask for people or rather had a voiceover to ask for people to turn off their mobiles. And it seemed from those who went, people actually did turn them off

because they wanted to have that connection. Well, you know, that was really great that people respected that because the thing was, you know, we were working in what was quite a small theatre and I wanted there to be a really strong connection between the audience and everyone on stage. And phones are very distracting.

It's a bit different in an open-air concert. You know, it's not quite the same, but we were trying to create an atmosphere with what we were doing. There was a lot of theatre and film involved, and I think it did give a stronger connection to the whole process, really. Are you on social media? Do you look at it yourself? Are you into your phone i have a really ancient phone how ancient are we talking oh it's very ancient but i like that you

see because i spend a lot of time on my laptop and when i go out during the day it means i don't have to deal with emails and everyone knows that so So I just get texts and calls on my phone and it means that I have a bit of peace. Yeah, I might start taking that advice and buy myself an old brick just so that I can be out of range. I did also want to check, do you know about Witch Talk, a subset of TikTok?

It's inspired by Babushka and your look in that video. There's a whole load of people very dedicated to you in that space. Do you know about that? No, I don't. It sounds ridiculous. Okay, that's some homework if I'm allowed to give Kate Bush a bit of homework. But I

also just wanted to bring up your son if I may, because in that concert that we were just talking about, you did pay tribute to Bertie. He was also a constant presence during the show, singing in the backing choir on stage, taking part in several of the scenes. You said without him that that wouldn't have happened. He's now obviously some years on in his 20s. What does he make of a new generation discovering his mum? I think he thinks it's pretty cool.

Yeah, I bet. I bet. Is he a fan of Stranger Things as well? discovering his mum? I think he thinks it's pretty cool. Yeah. I bet. I bet. Is he a fan of Stranger Things as well? Yeah, we all are. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our friends kept saying,

have you seen Stranger Things when the first series came out? So eventually, you know, we thought, okay, let's just watch it. And we binged watched it and then saw every series ever since. It's lovely because, you know, in a similar way to Harry Potter, where in those early films, they were just little kids. And then as the films

progressed, it becomes heavier and darker. And those little kids turn into really talented, young adult actors. And you have a different connection with something that's moved through years, really, of watching them grow. Have you watched it? Yes, it's actually prescribed watching in my house. My husband's completely addicted to it. And he already loved you, but was very excited to see that cassette go in and also have the memory of the Walkman that we both remember very well. And, you know, I was also thinking, what did Kate Bush do during lockdown?

And perhaps you were binge watching like the rest of us, our favourite TV shows. Was that the order of the day in the Bush household? Who wasn't? And gardening. And a bit of kitchen disco? Are you still into the moves? Gardening's my thing now, I think. The one and only Kate Bush. And of course, you got in touch about the interview.

Jane from Canada says, Kate was my idol at university in Bristol in the late 70s. I moved to Canada a few years later and have lived here since then. Every time I go home, flying into Heathrow, Gatwick or Manchester, oh England, my lion heart plays in my head every time. And Rosemary said, I had to have my tonsils removed when I was 21 in 1978 and the only thing I was worried about was if Kate Bush had made it to number one with Wuthering Heights.

She did and I went into the operating theatre happy. And it is still my go-to song if ever I just want to dance free form on my own when no one's watching. Now the physical and emotional challenges of in vitro fertilization or IVF as it's commonly known never fade from your memory whatever the outcome. But what happens when you've been lucky enough to have a child or children through the process and you still have frozen embryos in storage, you're certain you will not use. Alison Murdoch, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at Newcastle University joined Emma, as did Jane and Rachel, two women who have had different experiences of this. Emma began by asking Alison why some people end up with embryos left over.

It's important when people are having fertility treatment to understand that they want the best chance of success and the best chance comes if they have more embryos. So some people will end up with more embryos available for use than can be transferred at the initial cycle so they're then all frozen. The options that are available then for a couple who have frozen embryos are very clearly defined in law. These embryos can be transferred for their use, they can be used by somebody else, they can be donated to research or they can be discarded. About 40% of couples who do actually have embryos frozen will conceive that cycle. So for those couples, that is an option for them to

have potential siblings. But that means that about 60% of those who don't conceive that cycle, these frozen embryos give them another chance of pregnancy. And as you say, the difficulty arises when couples who have embryos frozen don't want them to use them for their own treatment anymore. Only a very small minority actually donate their embryos to another couple. If the clinic's got an active research program, then they can actually donate them to research, and many will agree to do that. But the only alternative for patients then is to discard their embryos,

and this is a specific decision that some people do. However, it's estimated that maybe 30% of couples effectively abandon their embryos, probably because they find it just too difficult to make that decision. What does that mean if you abandon them? You stop paying for the storage and you let the clinic decide? Usually it means that they just stop responding to the clinic's messages. We usually contact patients every year to get the continuing understanding of what they want to do with them. And if they don't respond, even if you send registered mail to them, they're effectively leaving the decision to you. So if they don't continue to pay for storage or the storage limit legally has been exceeded, the clinic then has no alternative but just to discard those embryos.

So they don't go into medical research because there's not been consent? They have to be actively donated to research. Right. Let's bring in Jane to this. Alison thank you for that stay with us. Jane what did you decide to do and what was your situation? Well we had two frozen embryos after having had three IVF cycles, one thought cycle and one baby. And then I fully intended to use those two frozen embryos to add to my family. But every first time, so having had seven years or so of infertility, we didn't bother with contraception afterwards. And when I made the appointment to go and use the frozen

embryos I then found I was pregnant naturally which was a huge uh joy and surprise and you know I can't even express what that was like so um so you know I've still got two more if I wanted three, which was always my dream. And after the second one, went on the pill, came off the pill to use the last two embryos, found I was pregnant again. By which point, when I had my third child, I was almost 41. It was a really, really hard decision. We probably fell into that latter category and that Alison talked about I couldn't write to the clinic to say discard my embryos I couldn't do that I felt by not responding and having paid for additional storage I felt by not responding it was kind of like a shared decision I wasn't taking full responsibility in a way I don't know it was it's really hard even

now when I think about it and you know we're talking my youngest is now 17 so we're talking a long time ago okay yes I mean I know that my inaction was also a decision but I think actually just writing writing it down and making it official just felt too painful. Yes. Let me try and understand that just a little bit more, actually, with Alison. That is what you just described. And it's interesting to hear the psychology behind that, isn't it? Yes. You have to remember that, as I explained before, most people have embryos frozen because they see them as their future babies. They are not a group of cells.

The intention of freezing them is to make children. And if they donate them to another couple, there's the concern that there might be children out there who are full siblings of their own children, who they would have no contact with, no knowledge about, but maybe a knock on the door when the child's 18. That's a really difficult thing to get your head around. There's a message that's just come in. I think using language abandoned for making a clear decision to discard embryos is unnecessary. I chose to do this as I did not want my genetic child being potentially brought up by another family, especially as they would be my child's genetic,

in quotation marks, twin. Reads a message, an anonymous message there from someone listening with experience. Let's hear how this worked out for someone else. Rachel, good morning. What was your situation and what did you decide to do? So I had IVF in 2017 and we were very lucky that after the egg collection, we ended up with eight embryos. So all of ours were frozen at the time because I needed to have a little break before we had to transfer at the time we hadn't really thought too much because eight is a good number but you you never know which way your treatment will go you don't know if it will work you don't know if you might need to go through the cycle multiple times or want to have more children so we went into it with an open mind and then our first embryo transfer worked and we had a little girl so we then had seven left that were still

frozen and then when my daughter had just turned one I had a surgery that meant I couldn't have any more children I had something called endometrial ablation so it's like a permanent removal of the lining of your womb so at the time when I was sort of offered this treatment me and my partner had a discussion to say are we sure we don't want to have any more children you know my health became more important we had a child we were parents in our head we know we were a family so we made that decision so after the surgery I spoke with our clinic about our options and obviously we had sort of heard that you could donate to other couples or research and training so we didn't know but then obviously when we were we contacted them to ask what the options were both of us like myself and my boyfriend as soon

as they sort of said you can donate to other couples it felt right for us I don't know why it was just an instant feeling of yeah that's what we want to do 100% there was no hesitation from either of us which is really good so that was what we decided to do and I think it was just because you know we've been through fertility we've been through you know finding out we couldn't have children on our own naturally, then going through IVF. We know it's hard to be able to give someone the chance to have a family and have a baby that might not be able to. That was what was important to us. That's incredible.

I mean, I suppose the concern that even just on that message that came in is is around, unlike donating eggs or donating sperm, by donating an embryo, just in case people aren't aware of that, you know, that's the basis of life form to go, if it takes. And that is you and, in your case, your partner, your child, potentially, going to another couple, your genetic makeup like that did that come as part of your conversation because it sounds like you got to that place with ease in some way yeah i mean we knew that we knew that genetically these embryos were you know they were our

biological children or biological babies but i don't know why I can't explain it but it doesn't bother me in that way because it's not my baby it's an embryo at that point yes it is something that I have made with my you know part of me and part of my partner but we were never going to use them because we weren't able to and I felt that we'd worked so hard to get them. They were really, really good quality. The clinic had already told us all eight of our embryos were really high-grade, high-quality embryos. And the fact that our first one took made me feel confident that that was the truth.

And we felt like we were just giving someone a really good chance. And if you're getting to the point as a couple that you think you may have been through multiple failures, a lot of, you know, a lot of heartbreak, a lot of setbacks. And then you're faced with the scenario of another go, but with a donor. That in itself is difficult because as much as it's, you know, we know that's hard. They know it's not theirs. It works both ways, but it gives them an opportunity to become a family. Well, even if you're on your own, you know, and you need that sort of assistance, to have that donation means a lot.

You know, the question that comes to mind, Alison, if I could just go back to Alison Murdoch, who's a professor of reproductive medicine. And thank you, Rachel, for sharing that. What are the rules around, you know, you mentioned the knock at the door when 18. What are the rules about informing that potential child? It's up to the parents of the child to decide what they tell the child about their conception. And legally, the people who donate the embryo, that's the man and the woman, because they're donated separately as a sperm and an egg, they will sign the forms when they donate to say that they are not going to be the legal parents.

And in accepting the treatment, accepting the donors, then the couple that have the embryo donated to them will be the legal parents of the child and their names will go on the birth certificate. Can you request as someone who's donating the embryo to not be contacted? The law in the UK now says that the donors have to agree that they can be contacted when the child is the age of 18. So the child can contact the donors at that age. Professor Alison Murdoch there alongside Jane and Rachel. Now to the world of comedy. Catherine Ryan and Sarah Pascoe are two of the biggest names in the

industry at the moment, but both have made recent headlines due to comments on Catherine's new TV show where they revealed instances when they've worked with men they believe to be predatory. Emma spoke to Catherine Roberts, who was a stand-up comedian for five years and left the industry in 2019. And comedian Chloe Petz, who will be performing her show Transience at the Edinburgh Fringe this summer, also joined the discussion. Emma began by asking Catherine why she got into comedy. I mean, when I was 10, I just thought these people are like magic. I thought laughter was such an amazing thing. And so they were like boy bands, I guess, to me, comedians.

And I just wanted to be part of the gang. Well, I was going to say, what was it like being on stage? It is like a kind of primal, almost, sense of being like, we're all together and we're laughing. It feels so good and magical. It's great. Why did you end up leaving this place that you describe as magical? I got assaulted by another comedian and after that my ability to kind of look the other way

and turn rather cheap to behavior that I didn't like. But I guess I worked with these people because you have to work with them to do your dream. You have to do it too. And then my tolerance for that just went down and I couldn't do it anymore. Because just to make this clear as well, because it's not a set office structure, is it? Far from it when you are a stand up comedian. And with what happened to you, and I should say, again, you've made this public, you didn't report it to the police. No.

But you was in a situation where you then didn't feel you could go to certain gigs. You didn't know who would be in the audience and before you actually left comedy it the experience apart from of course the the physical and emotional harm it had caused you left you isolated in your work yeah I didn't report it to a police and I just wanted to um be okay I just wanted to do comedy and be okay with it um and so I just left it but then more and more you just it started to have a bit of an effect on me where I just didn't want to hang out with people who I knew certain gigs that I thought were were my favorite because I knew this guy was probably going to be there and I didn't I didn't want to go and watch gigs where I wasn't a part of

because you don't know the line up until the day. And I couldn't enjoy it anymore. Which is, of course, even more, I mean, it's sad in any way, but it's sort of even more tragic when it's about laughter, it's about joy, and it's about that magic that you described. Catherine, thank you for that. Just stay with me and let me bring in Chloe Petz. There is concern about the world that we want to go and enjoy

and laugh with and laugh at, you know, because of these insights, these pockets of experiences that we're hearing about. How is it for you, Chloe? Because you're in it, you're amongst it at the moment. It's one of those things where I would say I probably experience the quiet misogyny of of being a comedian which is the stuff that's quite difficult to articulate because it will be sort of microaggressions that we as women will be able to sort of recognize amongst each other but when you try and explain that to a

wider audience then they might sort of negate that by saying well maybe you just weren't funny enough so I'm talking about the specifics of going to a gig and I can't say this of all audiences most audiences are absolutely wonderful but you will go to those gigs where you just it's often blokes of a certain age and they just sit there they lean back they fold their arms and they go this woman's not going to impress me whatsoever and you know it's a different quality of laughter for you than for the blokes which is usually the women laughing and and the men sort of maybe not going for it as much so you sort of understand that that and then there's also oftentimes people will come up to you after a gig and go I don't usually find women funny but that's a lovely that's a lovely starting sentence isn't it yeah yeah i don't usually

find women but you were great and i'm like yeah please slag off other women to praise me i love it the sisterhood is alive and well in comedy yeah oh yeah no i know i'd sell them all out um no of course not it's it's a horrible thing horrible thing to hear and a horrible implication. So you just kind of get this vague sense that at some gigs and you can often read them, you are starting maybe five steps behind the start line. And we have to I think we probably have to acknowledge my demographic here, which is that I'm very masculine presenting so I think sometimes people are responding to um the symbols of what you are rather than the actual sort of like mechanics of your demographic or whatever so I can often fit in quite well into these spaces because I'm I'm recognizably laddy and maybe saying the things that they kind of expect a comedian to say so it's more difficult for extremely feminine presenting women.

And I know that my femme colleagues get a lot of, particularly my queer femme colleagues, get a lot of misogynistic heckling. And what you're talking about there is very important for an understanding of the atmosphere within which you exist and work. But how are you also finding the, because you're talking about the audience a lot there and the response,

what is it actually like as well with fellow comics, with those who you're working alongside? Because that's what we're also getting a bit of an insight into here, you know, how it is to travel, how it is to appear along others on the bill and how you're treated. And then, of course, in Catherine's instance, you know, a very extreme and in this case, violent experience.

I think the context of me being quite a masculine queer woman who is very, very big, very tall, sort of presents very masculine. I often feel like I'm sort of an ally in these situations where I'm sort of having to listen to my friends and colleagues. But then equally, I have experience of inappropriate sexual touching, sexually inappropriate and explicit comments have been made to me in green rooms. And I don't I consider myself to be a very sort of minor recipient of it. Sometimes it's difficult for blokes to call out other blokes because they don't know what's going on because these guys are so good at being charming and charismatic i think that was a really good point you made katherine about lineups not getting shared till the day i think that's certainly a tangible thing that we try and ask for now because you don't want to turn up you don't want to turn up to a gig and find that you're on a bill with

an abuser because you don't want to be in a green room with them because you don't want to turn up to a gig and find that you're on a bill with an abuser because you don't want to be in a green room with them because you don't know what they're going to do. They're absolutely awful. You have zero respect for them. And you don't sort of want to look like you're aligned with them or colluding with them in any way. Or endorsing in any way. Catherine, I mean, what do you think has to change? Or who could that come from?

Because, again, it's not reminding me of of parliament per se but we have heard about for instance in parliament that there's a lack of scrutiny of mps because who do they answer to there's no human resources in the same way that there is there's various structures that are being put in place there's quite a lot of investigations going on at the moment but but in industries where there aren't the same structures it can be even harder I mean does this come down to tour managers does this come down to venues how how do you think it could change Catherine? A lot of gigs they they have a woman's spot and they uh don't they're like well we don't want to have two women on a bill and but just spending so much of my career

being isolated from other women and not being in contact with them and not having someone on my side. I feel like just having two women on general gigs would be helpful. And also there's a standard with venues where it feels like they value success more than they value safety. Catherine Roberts and Chloe Petz there. Still to come on the programme, we speak to Aviva CEO Amanda Blanc, one of only a handful of female CEOs of FTSE 100 companies. And we hear about Althea Gibson, the first black woman to win Wimbledon. Now, George Harrison needs no introduction as the

lead guitarist of the Beatles. His most famous songs include While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Within You, Without You, Here Comes the Sun and Something. But what was it like to build a life with him, go on those journeys and be married to a musical icon? Olivia Harrison has penned a book of poetry called Came the Lightning to celebrate her husband's life more than 20 years since his death from lung cancer at the age of 58. Olivia began by telling Emma why she decided to write poetry. It just sort of bubbled up emotions and especially the emotion of grief you know how it strikes whenever it feels like it. And I don't know, I just had a moment of the 20 years. How could this possibly be?

And I wrote something about it and thought, well, if I just keep writing, I'll have one for every year. And, you know, George was a good guy. He was a real sweetheart. And I wanted to send something out there on this 20th year because I know how much people still think of him and listen to his music. How does it feel to have sent something out there, as you put it? A little bit scary, but at the same time, people know a lot about George through his music, but I wanted them to know what he was like as a person

just small things I wrote about his body I wrote about you know very intimate moments and um you know I just wanted people to know a little bit more about the man and the humanity his humanity you know and a lot of people have gone through grief, of course, with the last couple of years with regards to the pandemic. The idea though of wanting another spring, it's very powerful. Yeah, it was actually inspired. It was inspired by the St. Vincent Millay. And many people have written about spring, but that's actually all we wanted was another spring. And I really did think we'd have one. But time just ran out. There's a note from George which says, what right do we have to say anything? And also questions around how we get into these bodies. And you mentioned wanting to talk about him, the man, the body. Was that the kind of philosophical thinking that drew you to him that you used to talk about that was part of your dialogue? we were both on that inner journey, I suppose, drawn together and curious about other things, curious about that journey. That brought us together from the very beginning.

And, you know, once you have an understanding with your partner about what's really important to you, what's really important to you, you know, at the end of your life, that's what keeps you going. How did you actually first meet I was working at a record label at A&M Records in Los Angeles and he had a label Dark Horse Records which my son just is reviving has revived and they they asked me if I would come to work at that label I think they spotted me in the yoga pants or something

like that. And somebody just really, they didn't interview me. They just asked me if I would come and work there. And I did. And George and I really got along really well. And, you know, we shared this love of Indian classical music. Really, we were sort of partners from then. Yes, of course. I mean, I should say George's second wife, after he divorced Patti Boyd in 1977, you shared many interests about the way you looked at the world around meditation. You mentioned yoga there. You also, I understand, got into gardening a great deal, because you did move into Friar Park. I don't know if you did, but George certainly did, which is in Henley-upon-Thames,

a Victorian near-Gothic mansion where I believe you still live. Amazing history to it, built by the eccentric lawyer Sir Frank Crisp in 1889. But you had to do a lot of work to it, and that included the gardens. A lifetime. It was derelict when George moved here. He just wanted to get away, wanted to get somewhere more private. And he found this place that reminded him, I think, of some of the parks in Liverpool. But it was a real mess. And we had no intention of setting out, really restoring it. We just started working and became pretty passionate about the garden and you know fresh air fiends you say just

relating to the grief point here and what you've been sharing and trying to share through your writing you say the garden is finally where you lost track of grief and i i hear that again again from people that in greenery they can find some peace yeah i mean i wrote a poem called death is good for the garden. And looking back this 20 years, I thought of all the, you know, what I've done in the garden, someone said, have you always been interested in it? I said, I have. But the last 20 years, I put a lot of energy, maybe I put that energy into the garden. And he said, Oh, well, death is good for the garden and um and he said oh well death is good for the garden and i thought yeah it really is and and it's true you know um especially now everybody you know if everyone could get out in

nature every single day and um just have a moment on their own a moment being overwhelmed by nature i think we'd all be much healthier. Yes, I mean, it is something even we're seeing with some doctors now, social prescribing, green spaces, that's a growing trend as well, the understanding between the links. The poems also reflect some of the most painful times. For instance, the poem, He Never Hurt No One. You write about the night you were woken by that call at an hour you know is bad news, as you put it, telling

you that John Lennon had been killed. What was that like to go back to, to remember how that felt? Trying to distill all these emotions in every single poem. Every single poem is true, every line.

I didn't embellish anything. And it's really difficult to distill an emotion into a sentence or a moment. And all I could say about that moment was, you know, that phone call in the night. And you know it's not good, and you don't want to answer the phone, but you don't have a choice. I happened to be the one who answered that call, that monumental call in the night to say, someone said, you know, John's dead.

And I thought, you know, you have 10 seconds to try and figure out how you're going to break this news. And he said, George actually said, who is it? And he thought it was Ringo. It was so sad, you know, really it was sad. And we just didn't know what to do. We just put the blankets over our heads and, you know, held on for a while. But yeah, you and George were attacked at Friar Park by an intruder. You fended him off.

You fought. You learned, I'm sure, a great deal about yourself in that moment, which again, I'm sure, would have been in your mind when trying to recall some of these memories. I mean, how difficult was that to recover from? Pretty difficult. The purpose of writing it was to explain that when George died, he had the death that he, I don't want to say wanted,

but had prepared for, you know, death proper, not imposter. Because had he died that night, that wasn't his, that wasn't meant to be his death. I really believe that. Those things happen to good people. But that was, he felt so bad that John didn't have the chance to leave his body in the way he wanted, you know, under his own terms. And that night, we had the attack was, you know, came, the statistics were not on our side for that, that kind of an attack. But we both managed to fight our way out of it. You know, it was really visceral, and I wrote it like that. But really the point of writing it is really to show that when his death came,

you know, he was very much in charge of that afternoon in a beautiful way, and we should all be so lucky to have that kind of a passing. Olivia Harrison there. Now, this coming Monday is the start of this week's Wimbledon, but a new play now on stage aims to tell us the story behind Althea Gibson, the first black woman to win the tournament in 1957 and 1958. Writer and performer Kemi Bo Jacobs was so inspired by Althea's story

that she's written, all white, everything but me. She joined me on Friday's show and started by telling me who Althea was. She was the first, I say black person, because she won Wimbledon before Arthur Ashe, who was the first black man to win Wimbledon in 1957-58. So she was winning Wimbledon and other Grand Slam tournaments, US Open, what is now the French Open, the Australian Open. And then she went on to have a professional career in golf as the first black female golfer professionally. So she had an extraordinary life and achieved incredible things at a time when the challenges were so great.

There were huge obstacles and barriers and also a time when race politics, certainly in America and the rest of the world were really bad. And she endured and overcame many of those things. And sadly, so few people know who she is. And like you say, it is remarkable and very sad that we don't know her name. But you are changing that. And we're helping you by amplifying her voice. I think we should hear, we've got a clip of her actually. Let's hear her speak,ifying her voice. I think we should hear, we've got a clip of her actually. Let's

hear her speak, hear her words, and then you can tell us more about how you found out about her. This is Althea. I would never thought that coming from the streets of New York playing paddle tennis, that I would be one who would have the opportunity to shake the hand of Queen Elizabeth. To me that is a great honor. But it all started back in the play streets where the kids coming up trying to make something of themselves and trying to keep out of trouble. And I felt that I have accomplished a great deal in that respect. And I have so many people to be thankful to be in this position that I'm in now.

Of course I'm very happy and elated over the situation that being the Wimbledon champion but it wasn't all my doings. There was a lot of people's encouragement, a lot of people's good wishes that accompanied me over there and helped me to go along and to win this title. And of course, with God's help also, I, well, I did that. Wow. Well, it's quite amazing hearing her voice. That was Althea Gibson speaking when she won Wimbledon for the first time in 1957.

What do you think about that clip? It's lovely to hear her voice isn't it? and exactly what she says is she actually she came from a family of sharecroppers she was born in Silver, South Carolina and they like lots of African Americans migrated to the north from the south

and then landed in Harlem towards the end of the Harlem Renaissance which was this great expression of African American art and culture in America which we still enjoy today that the legacy of that. So how did she go from because there's some other she was she was single she had no, she had no professional organisation standing behind her, supporting her. How did she overcome all those obstacles to go on to achieve what she did? A combination of talent, hard work, belief and opportunity. I mean, our play, All White Everything But Me,

which is directed by Floriana Desue brilliantly and an alphabetic theatre, like you said, really explores that. So we chart her life for about four decades from the age of 10 up until kind of her 40s. And we chart that. So she was discovered playing paddle tennis, which is like tennis,

but played with smaller rackets, smaller courts and slightly different rules. And someone just recognised her ability and thought a chap and someone just recognized her ability and thought a chap called Buddy Walker recognized her ability and thought I wonder if she'd be good at tennis and she ended up going to because her talent was so was so extraordinary for someone at that age she's invited to play at a private tennis club called the Cosmopolitan Tennis Club in New York, which is really, it was one of the few places

where black and white people could mix and play together. And there she met some amazing people who actually supported her and enabled her to pursue tennis as a career. But she was able to overcome these things really by the fact that her talent was undeniable. And so other very successful tennis players, a tennis player called Alice Marble

was really integral in helping Althea play at the national tennis championships in America, which were played at a place called Forest Hills in New York. And she wrote quite a scathing letter to, which was published in a notable sports magazine, which said that, you know, Althea Gibson has been held back because she's black, essentially. And this really shook things up.

So the play really looks at how that happened. It's a whittlestop tour of these events. But really the question that we fundamentally ask is why isn't she remembered? And who writes history? Who decides who's remembered? And who decides who is erased? And, you know, Alfie always wanted to be somebody. Her autobiography, which was published in 1957, that's the title of it. You know,ie always wanted to be somebody. Her autobiography, which was published in 1957, that's the title of it.

You know, I always wanted to be somebody. And I think growing up in a world in which she was told that she was nobody, coming from a really kind of poor, very working class background, a little bit of a troubled background. She was a bit of a renegade, didn't really fit in, didn't like school, and a bit of a renegade didn't really fit in didn't like school and a bit of a troubled life at home she met that challenge had been told that she was no one by the extreme suggesting that she was going to be somebody we called the play all white everything but me

because billy a jean king who was a huge fan and certainly celebrates althea's name to this day and said that at the time Alfea was playing, everything was white. This is a direct quote. The balls, the clothes, the socks, the shoes, the people, everything. And so that was the inspiration for the title of the play, that you're right,

that Alfea was walking out into these arenas, which were the preserve of the elite. In many ways, tennis is still a preserve of the elite. And everyone was white, you know, and it must have been incredibly daunting for her, playing to crowds who didn't celebrate her wins, who would fall silent when she won a point. And, you know, she was the first, she was the only one,

and she was different. It's a term that Shonda Rhimes talks about, being first, only, different, and the a term that Shonda Rhimes talks about, being first, only different, and the extra burden that's placed upon you. Kemi Bo Jacobs there, all white, everything but me, is now on stage at the Alphabetti Theatre in Newcastle. Now, the Treasury's Women in Finance Charter has published its annual review looking at gender diversity

within the financial sector in the UK for 2021. It's found that for the first time, the average number of women in senior management has remained flat, staying at 33%, as it was in 2020. Amanda Blank is CEO of Aviva, the UK's largest general insurance company, and leads the Women in Finance Charter. She's also one of only a handful of female CEOs of FTSE 100 companies.

She began by telling Emma about the recent sexism she's faced. It was quite amazing, actually, because we did the AGM. And, you know, as I've said now a number of times, you prepare for every sort of question at the AGM. And you just sort of don't think that anything like that's going to happen. And immediately the AGM finished. I got on a plane to Canada. And it was only when I landed at Toronto Airport and my phone just started pinging. And I thought, you know, maybe it's I can't get a reception or whatever here.

And then I could see the responses coming in. And I really felt at that point that, you know, I needed to say something. And I mean, obviously, you know, my LinkedIn post has been read by, you know, I think something like 1.7 million people and thousands of comments and everything else. And I think it is important to call it out. I think as a senior woman, when something like that happens, it's almost your duty to call it out. And so, yeah, I did.

How did you, I mean, newspaper reports said, you know, one shareholder said, you're not the man for the job. How did you reply to that? Well, I didn't. I didn't reply. You know, there were three or four comments. Our chairman actually did reply on the day to say that he felt that the comments were unacceptable. And, you know, I thought that that was good. But I think at the time, you're just in the heat of the moment. You don't actually realise there's so many other things going on at an AGM. You don't realise. It's only when you sit

back and reflect and you think, actually, do you know what? I mean, you know, that's just not acceptable. And, you know, I think I've had things like that before. You know, you get other comments, usually in private, usually quite quietly, but never in a public forum like that. And look, I've got to say that there have been like hundreds of men that have supported me in my career and 99.9% of men are absolutely hugely supportive of women. But, you know, you do get that situation where it is quite stark, I guess, in terms of some of the comments. But as you also say, saying it in public like that is a whole other level. Yeah, I guess, in terms of some of the comments. But as you also say, you know, saying it in public like that is a whole other level. Yeah, I know.

What do you think? I mean, I know it's an AGM, but what was going on with that individual? I mean, do they genuinely have an issue with how you're running the company? Or is it just a chance like some people do on social media to have a pop at a woman? Yeah, well, I think there's a number of things going on. I mean, first of all, I would say, look, judge me by my results, OK? You know, I became the Aviva CEO two years ago. There's been a significant improvement in the performance of the business. And so, you know, you stand up there, you're more than happy to be judged

and I'm always happy to be judged by my actual performance. But for my gender, you know, I mean, seriously, you know, that's just crazy. And I think, Emma, you know I mean seriously you know that's just crazy um and it uh and I think Emma you know yourself if there's an article that I've been interviewed in the press and I've had a number of those I don't look below the line to the comments below the line I literally don't do that anymore I used to do that to try and see what people were sort of interested in to think about how they might you know how I might think about other interviews. But I've long stopped looking at it because the first comments are always,

you know, who does she think she is? What is she wearing? You know, why is she looking like that? So you just stop that, right? And I mean, even journalists will tell me that they don't look below the line. So, you know, I think we've got to accept that. There are some people who just feel like that. And it's sad for them. Yes. And I was also going to say, you know, you talked about your years of work and the scars of this and, you know, a lot of women also having their own stories, which I'll share a few with you shortly.

But that sort of level where you say it's a bit different, actually, you know, that sort of public comment. Did that get to you? It didn't actually. Maybe that's in a way wrong. I try to be really positive about life in general and I'm optimistic about, you know, what the progress that needs to be made. I think it got to me more after I realized the impact that it had on other people. I mean, I was literally contacted by CEOs, by individuals in firms in Australia, in New Zealand, in America. That was the bit where I just thought, this is obviously not just my issue here. Lots of other people have experienced it.

And some of the stories I had privately on LinkedIn, I mean, I can't tell you here because they were private stories to me but they made me really concerned and and and it was then I thought actually do you know what as a woman through lots of my career I've sort of said well you know it's not for me to speak up but actually it is you know with nine with nine women FTSE CEOs um if I'm not going to speak up, who is? You know, I mean, so I think you just feel the responsibility more than the sadness, to be honest. And what can be done? I mean, you like numbers.

You gave a statistic there. You said 99.9% of men are great. And, you know, you talked about support in your own career. I recognise it's not an exact statistic there. No, it's definitely not an exact statistic. But there are enough, and it won't just be men, I know there'll also be women who've been difficult with women, but just putting them to one side for a moment,

although that's a significant issue in some people's workplace, there are enough, and certainly from these stories and from your experiences and the stories you've heard privately, for there to be a problem. So what can be done as someone who wants change? Well, I think there's, so there are lots of very, very practical things that can be done in the workplace. You know, there are, you set targets around gender diversity.

You can look at the culture and call out bad behaviour immediately when it happens. You can make sure that, you know, when you're advertising for roles, they're as inclusive as possible. You know, there's a blueprint which, you know, Aviva have written in conjunction with Bain, which highlights all of the sort of very practical things that can be done. Bain Consulting, sorry, just to say. Bain Consulting, yes. So we've done some work on this. It's on the aviva.com website.

It's a blueprint which has got all the, you know, how do you recruit? How do you retain and promote? How do you culturally change your organisation? It gives recommendations from... But how do you... We've heard a lot. I don't mean to cut across, certainly not a chief executive. But, you know, how do you actually change those people, some of whom you've now come face to face with, their views? It's one thing to have hiring practices, to have targets.

They're all very, if you like, polite, clean, nice sounding things. But if someone thinks a woman should be wearing trousers and should be doing a better job, even when the figures have gone up, what are you going to do about that? Well, you can't. I mean, look, honestly, are you going to change those three individuals? Probably not. But what you can do is if you see more representation, if you see more women like me, if you see more diverse individuals in roles, then it becomes more of the norm. And then I think, because this is not going to change overnight. And I would love to tell you that, you know, there is a secret sauce that within like, you know,

six months, if we do these five things, these things can change. But look, what we've seen this morning from the Women in Finance Charter is that there's been no movement in the last year on female senior representatives. Why is that? Do you think is it the pandemic and some of the roles women were taking during that? I think it could be pandemic related. I think it could be that it was, you know, progress has been made from 22% to 33%. And those were the easy things that were done. And now it's the hard work that needs to happen. I think there's a pipeline issue. It's, you know, there are not enough women coming through. Women are dropping out of organisations too early. And we

need to look at why that is the case. Do they not feel that they can work flexibly? Is it childcare? It's a complex situation. But I do think that we've got to also, if you like, really grow up and say, this is not going to be solved by three or four very simple things. It's very, very complex. But I would say my challenge is,

if there were nine male CEOs in the FTSE 100 would this be higher on everybody's agenda than it is today and I think that we've got to start reversing the language that we're using if there had only been two male prime ministers would we say that you know actually you know something needs to be done we need to start changing the language and see this as a really important business issue that needs to be fixed. Why do you think it may have got worse? I think you notice it more as you get more senior. I think, you know, when you're in a junior position, actually in junior positions is 50-50 men and women for many of the junior positions that exist within organisations. As women start to fall out, you become more in the

minority. And then I do think you notice it more. You do definitely notice it more. You're in more meetings where you're the only woman. You're in more conferences where there are very few women. And therefore, I do think that, you know, that it is worse. And unfortunately, you pretend that it isn't the case. But, you know, as you get more senior, you do notice it a lot more. Amanda Blank there. That's it from me. I'm off to lock myself in a room and dance with Wild Abandon to Kate Bush. I highly recommend it. Something I've been doing since the 80s. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.